WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:30.000 position:50% align:top line:0% *This machine-generated transcript may have errors. If remediation or a manually-generated transcript is needed, please contact NLM Support at https://support.nlm.nih.gov.* 00:01.440 --> 00:04.280 tom I've read a lot in the press lately 00:04.280 --> 00:06.880 about the so called sex revolution. 00:07.120 --> 00:09.530 I wonder if you comment a little bit about that, 00:09.530 --> 00:12.450 whether you think there is such a thing or what's happening with it. 00:13.340 --> 00:16.180 I think there is jim some people say 00:16.190 --> 00:18.040 we've had a sex revolution now. 00:18.040 --> 00:18.850 It's passe, 00:18.850 --> 00:19.660 it's gone. 00:20.040 --> 00:20.910 I don't believe that. 00:20.910 --> 00:21.750 I think it's here. 00:21.750 --> 00:22.980 I think it's here to stay. 00:22.990 --> 00:25.630 Some people will drop it because they go into 00:25.630 --> 00:28.160 fads and the fad is over. 00:28.170 --> 00:31.120 But there's so many people who have been denied the privilege 00:31.120 --> 00:32.890 of being sexually active, 00:32.900 --> 00:35.290 people who in this day of liberation are 00:35.290 --> 00:36.250 demanding that, 00:36.250 --> 00:36.590 right? 00:36.600 --> 00:39.150 And they're not gonna let the sexual revolution in. 00:39.450 --> 00:40.660 It's here to stay jim 00:42.040 --> 00:44.770 tom I've read a lot like in 00:44.770 --> 00:47.720 playboy of different kinds of behaviors and things 00:47.740 --> 00:49.060 and they, 00:49.740 --> 00:51.210 they seem kind of foreign to me. 00:51.210 --> 00:52.390 And I was kind of wondering, 00:52.400 --> 00:54.990 do many people do different behaviors or, 00:55.000 --> 00:57.810 or most people stick to pretty much the same old 00:57.820 --> 00:58.350 things, 00:59.040 --> 01:00.690 incredibly in this day. 01:00.810 --> 01:03.550 There are still a great many people in our society who 01:03.550 --> 01:06.480 think the only people who vary or engage 01:06.480 --> 01:09.410 in any kind of variety of sexual behavior is just a few 01:09.420 --> 01:10.390 kinky people. 01:11.240 --> 01:12.620 I don't think that's true. 01:12.620 --> 01:15.430 And let me sort of give a context for my 01:15.440 --> 01:16.860 giving that kind of an answer. 01:17.640 --> 01:19.920 I think our society is still caught in a 01:19.930 --> 01:22.660 mindset that was Given to us or 01:22.660 --> 01:25.490 created really over 100 years ago and a man 01:25.490 --> 01:28.220 named Krafft ebbing um published a 01:28.220 --> 01:28.540 book, 01:28.540 --> 01:30.160 I I call it a horrendous book, 01:30.940 --> 01:31.770 incredibly. 01:31.770 --> 01:34.760 It was the standard textbook in human sexuality and most 01:34.770 --> 01:36.960 medical schools until just a few years ago. 01:37.940 --> 01:38.950 And uh, 01:38.960 --> 01:40.520 I think he got off to a bad start. 01:40.530 --> 01:43.180 He entitled the book Pathological sex 01:43.510 --> 01:44.960 rather negative beginning. 01:45.640 --> 01:46.030 Uh, 01:46.040 --> 01:47.570 and then the opening chapter of that book, 01:47.570 --> 01:49.970 he describes normal sex and 01:49.970 --> 01:51.290 approximately East terms. 01:51.290 --> 01:52.120 He says, 01:52.120 --> 01:54.750 a young man falls in love with a young 01:54.750 --> 01:55.280 woman. 01:55.290 --> 01:55.890 This, 01:55.890 --> 01:56.290 of course, 01:56.290 --> 01:59.180 is before the day of women's liberation. 01:59.190 --> 02:02.170 Wasn't a young man falls in love with a young or young 02:02.170 --> 02:03.980 man and young woman to fall in love. 02:04.150 --> 02:06.920 The young woman is presumably waiting pine lee 02:06.930 --> 02:08.930 to be fall in love with. 02:08.940 --> 02:09.370 Anyway, 02:09.380 --> 02:09.890 he says, 02:09.890 --> 02:12.730 the young man falls in love with a young woman due 02:12.730 --> 02:15.700 time they get married and then they have sex to propagate 02:15.700 --> 02:17.350 Children period, 02:17.360 --> 02:18.860 that's normal sex. 02:19.440 --> 02:22.280 Then Krafft Ebbing went on to the remainder of the book and 02:22.290 --> 02:25.250 rather lurid terms to describe just about every 02:25.250 --> 02:26.850 other kind of sexual behavior, 02:27.340 --> 02:29.700 all under the label of perverse. 02:31.240 --> 02:32.020 For that reason. 02:32.020 --> 02:32.710 As an example, 02:32.710 --> 02:34.410 just a little over three years ago, 02:34.410 --> 02:37.400 a married husband and wife finished serving prison 02:37.400 --> 02:40.150 terms in the state of California for having 02:40.150 --> 02:43.040 engaged in oral genital sex in the privacy of 02:43.040 --> 02:43.860 their own bedroom. 02:44.840 --> 02:46.250 And if that's not pointed enough, 02:46.640 --> 02:48.860 remember it could happen in Minneapolis tonight. 02:49.340 --> 02:51.300 I don't mean oral genital sex. 02:51.300 --> 02:52.200 I'm sure that will, 02:52.200 --> 02:54.980 but I mean a married couple could be put, 02:54.990 --> 02:55.750 respectively. 02:55.750 --> 02:58.550 And there are prisons for having engaged in it. 02:59.040 --> 03:01.830 So things pretty much stayed the same since he 03:01.830 --> 03:04.260 published that book over 100 years ago until 03:04.720 --> 03:07.280 1937 when Indiana 03:07.280 --> 03:10.190 University decided to be a very progressive university 03:10.190 --> 03:12.820 and have a course in human sexuality. 03:12.820 --> 03:14.800 And if you were living back then, 03:14.800 --> 03:16.260 and I see none of you were. 03:16.340 --> 03:18.450 But you know how progressive that was. 03:18.840 --> 03:20.640 And for some inexplicable reason, 03:20.640 --> 03:23.140 they chose an innocent professor of biology, 03:23.150 --> 03:23.720 uh, 03:23.730 --> 03:24.880 to teach the course. 03:24.880 --> 03:27.690 And he reluctantly agreed to do so saying he 03:27.700 --> 03:30.490 really didn't know much about sex other than the fact you've been 03:30.490 --> 03:31.950 married for 18 years. 03:32.540 --> 03:35.010 And so he went to the university library, 03:35.010 --> 03:37.980 read what few books that were into his dismay even he 03:37.980 --> 03:40.210 realized there was a lot of ignorance and just 03:40.220 --> 03:41.860 nonsense in these books. 03:42.440 --> 03:43.940 So being a scientist, 03:43.950 --> 03:44.530 this man, 03:44.530 --> 03:47.480 Alfred kinsey decided to go to the source and he began 03:47.480 --> 03:50.240 to interview students on campus about their personal sexual 03:50.240 --> 03:50.860 behavior. 03:51.340 --> 03:51.660 And he was, 03:51.670 --> 03:54.570 he was just amazed by the variety of sexual 03:54.570 --> 03:56.430 behavior revealed in these interviews, 03:56.710 --> 03:59.350 contradicting the impression that Krafft Ebbing had 03:59.350 --> 04:00.850 created 100 years ago. 04:01.440 --> 04:04.310 And and and kinsey became so intrigued by what he 04:04.310 --> 04:07.300 discovered that he went full time into sex. 04:07.310 --> 04:09.120 I mean professionally. 04:09.130 --> 04:12.080 And and he gave up biology and founded the Institute for 04:12.080 --> 04:13.020 Sex Research. 04:13.020 --> 04:15.220 And uh Before his death, 04:15.220 --> 04:18.120 he did over 18 interviews from coast to 04:18.120 --> 04:20.980 coast And published his monumental 04:20.990 --> 04:23.930 book on the behaviour of the sexual behavior of the 04:23.930 --> 04:25.960 Human Male in 1948. 04:26.640 --> 04:29.210 And I vividly remember when the book came out, 04:29.210 --> 04:31.240 hundreds of thousands of copies sold, 04:31.250 --> 04:31.790 of course, 04:31.790 --> 04:34.390 is one of the first books to ever be published by 04:34.390 --> 04:37.380 reputable publisher in our country with the word sex 04:37.380 --> 04:38.060 in the title. 04:38.840 --> 04:39.060 Of course, 04:39.060 --> 04:41.850 most people got home with the book and locked the door and 04:41.850 --> 04:44.660 pulled the blinds and to their dismay found that far from 04:44.660 --> 04:46.930 being pornographic or even erotic. 04:46.930 --> 04:49.560 It was very dull sociological reporting, 04:49.570 --> 04:52.400 but very significant because it did report this 04:52.400 --> 04:54.050 variety of sexual behavior. 04:54.840 --> 04:57.450 And the book was 04:57.460 --> 04:59.800 denounced by many people. 04:59.800 --> 05:02.280 I remember going to a large 05:02.280 --> 05:05.210 convention or conference of ministers and heard an 05:05.210 --> 05:08.190 hour lecture by a man who said everyone knew kinsey's 05:08.190 --> 05:11.140 book wasn't true that american people didn't do those kinds of 05:11.150 --> 05:13.850 variations of sexual behavior. 05:14.610 --> 05:15.190 Incidentally, 05:15.190 --> 05:17.940 I got to know that man personally about eight years 05:17.940 --> 05:20.840 later and found that kinsey was right on target about 05:20.840 --> 05:21.260 him. 05:21.640 --> 05:22.550 Uh, 05:22.560 --> 05:24.020 I think he made an honest mistake. 05:24.020 --> 05:25.600 Had anyone confronted him with that, 05:25.600 --> 05:28.250 he would have admitted that he just couldn't believe very many other 05:28.250 --> 05:30.890 people engaged in these variations of 05:30.890 --> 05:31.670 sexual behavior. 05:31.670 --> 05:34.440 And what I'm saying to you is I I just think it's true. 05:34.450 --> 05:36.360 Certainly been my own experience. 05:37.040 --> 05:39.790 And we incidentally this, 05:39.790 --> 05:41.150 I think will interest you. 05:41.150 --> 05:43.900 We show films of most of these varieties of sexual 05:43.900 --> 05:44.380 behavior. 05:44.380 --> 05:47.320 When we do our our SARS, 05:47.320 --> 05:50.260 our seminars on human sexuality at the 05:50.270 --> 05:51.160 medical school. 05:52.250 --> 05:54.260 We might talk about some of the varieties and 05:54.760 --> 05:55.370 interesting, 05:55.370 --> 05:58.170 I have to regretfully say we don't have any films of 05:58.170 --> 05:59.050 necrophilia. 05:59.940 --> 06:00.450 Um, 06:01.180 --> 06:02.830 I suppose until someone with an L. 06:02.830 --> 06:02.900 E. 06:02.900 --> 06:05.560 A mercenary spirit makes provision in there will 06:06.240 --> 06:07.690 for the use of their corpse. 06:07.690 --> 06:08.880 We won't have any, 06:08.890 --> 06:10.360 we don't have any data on that either. 06:10.360 --> 06:12.520 We don't know how much of that is engaged in 06:13.140 --> 06:14.490 one of our special stars. 06:14.490 --> 06:15.360 A couple years ago, 06:15.360 --> 06:18.160 our director asked if anyone in the group had ever engaged in 06:18.160 --> 06:20.880 necrophilia and one man held up his hand and said, 06:21.440 --> 06:21.610 well, 06:21.610 --> 06:22.460 I'm not sure. 06:24.150 --> 06:26.960 I suppose a lot of us have been in that predicament, 06:27.640 --> 06:29.750 but of course it's hardly cricket, 06:29.750 --> 06:30.010 you know, 06:30.010 --> 06:32.970 in the middle of a sexual encounter to reach over and feel 06:32.970 --> 06:34.060 your partner's pulse. 06:34.640 --> 06:35.320 Anyway, 06:35.330 --> 06:35.620 um, 06:35.630 --> 06:38.450 another variety of sexual behaviors. 06:38.450 --> 06:39.520 Best reality. 06:39.530 --> 06:42.190 A lot of intriguing things about best reality. 06:42.200 --> 06:43.190 One to me, 06:43.200 --> 06:43.870 at any rate, 06:43.870 --> 06:46.870 is how it's spelled B E S T instead of B E A S 06:46.870 --> 06:47.150 T. 06:47.740 --> 06:50.530 Another intriguing thing is how the Minnesota law 06:50.540 --> 06:53.440 reads making it a felony and it is a felony. 06:53.440 --> 06:55.210 And 41 out of the 50 states. 06:55.740 --> 06:58.570 The Minnesota says that it is unlawful for a 06:58.570 --> 07:01.560 person to engage in sex with an animal 07:01.700 --> 07:02.550 or a bird, 07:03.540 --> 07:06.350 which sort of challenges my fantasy 07:06.360 --> 07:06.960 life. 07:07.540 --> 07:10.490 I guess what really disturbs me about it is it certainly 07:10.490 --> 07:12.850 leaves the fish of Minnesota unprotected 07:14.130 --> 07:14.660 anyway. 07:14.670 --> 07:15.060 Um, 07:15.640 --> 07:17.600 another variety of sexual behaviors. 07:17.600 --> 07:18.660 Exhibitionism, 07:19.040 --> 07:21.980 the largest number of sex offense arrests in our society 07:21.980 --> 07:23.260 of her exhibitionism. 07:23.820 --> 07:24.950 If it's a female, 07:24.960 --> 07:27.250 it's almost always in a commercial context, 07:27.250 --> 07:29.160 a go go dancer strip teaser, 07:29.840 --> 07:30.830 if it's a male, 07:30.840 --> 07:33.050 it's almost never in a commercial context. 07:33.050 --> 07:33.330 You know, 07:33.340 --> 07:35.840 flash or whatever interesting 07:35.840 --> 07:36.360 example, 07:36.360 --> 07:39.270 by the way of how we perpetrate a sexual myth occurred on 07:39.270 --> 07:41.840 our campus several years ago, 07:41.840 --> 07:42.360 when our, 07:42.740 --> 07:45.500 one of our papers had a rather good 07:45.500 --> 07:48.370 article on exhibitionist until the last paragraph in which 07:48.370 --> 07:51.150 they quoted a learned professor as 07:51.150 --> 07:53.540 saying that a certain percentage of exhibitionists were 07:53.540 --> 07:55.660 potentially dangerous period. 07:56.640 --> 07:56.850 You know, 07:56.850 --> 07:59.660 presumably a certain percentage of us are potentially 07:59.670 --> 08:00.330 dangerous. 08:00.940 --> 08:02.000 As a matter of fact, 08:02.000 --> 08:04.770 one of the few things we know about exhibitionist is they tend to be 08:04.770 --> 08:06.360 more passive than average. 08:06.940 --> 08:09.580 I've worked with six male exhibitionist in the 08:09.580 --> 08:12.420 last year and a half and five were definitely 08:12.420 --> 08:14.350 more passive than the average male, 08:15.040 --> 08:17.370 something like an exhibitionist in that respect. 08:17.370 --> 08:19.990 Virus also tend to be more passive. 08:20.000 --> 08:22.810 And with both cases it makes sense because they're relying on 08:22.810 --> 08:25.710 visual stimulation or contact instead 08:25.710 --> 08:27.350 of tactical. 08:27.940 --> 08:30.170 This isn't to say all voyeuristic are all 08:30.180 --> 08:32.730 exhibitionists are are 08:32.730 --> 08:33.230 passive. 08:33.230 --> 08:36.140 I interviewed a man several years ago serving a term for rape 08:36.140 --> 08:39.120 and his first sex offense arrest was for 08:39.120 --> 08:41.940 being a peeping tom or or a 08:41.940 --> 08:42.560 voyeurism. 08:43.240 --> 08:43.750 Um, 08:45.040 --> 08:47.480 I think another variety of sexual behavior is 08:47.480 --> 08:48.700 transvestism, 08:48.710 --> 08:51.630 transvestite about which I still 08:51.630 --> 08:54.520 find current in our country a great deal of misunderstanding 08:54.520 --> 08:57.340 many people using the word transvestite in the word 08:57.340 --> 08:59.350 homosexual almost interchangeably. 08:59.840 --> 09:02.290 I would define a transvestite as a person who is 09:02.590 --> 09:05.370 erotically aroused by wearing some or 09:05.380 --> 09:07.650 all of the clothing of the opposite sex. 09:07.750 --> 09:10.090 It's usually some probably almost 09:10.090 --> 09:12.400 exclusively transvestites are males, 09:12.930 --> 09:14.520 contrary to the misunderstanding. 09:14.520 --> 09:16.810 The vast majority are heterosexual, 09:16.810 --> 09:17.850 not homosexual. 09:18.440 --> 09:21.130 It's usually a heterosexual man who who gets 09:21.130 --> 09:23.000 turned on by wearing a bra, 09:23.010 --> 09:24.770 panties and negligee, 09:24.770 --> 09:25.360 whatever. 09:25.740 --> 09:27.070 And no particular problem with. 09:27.070 --> 09:30.010 I think if they have an understanding partner who is grateful to 09:30.010 --> 09:31.650 have him at least turned down by something, 09:32.140 --> 09:34.880 I I did have a man a couple years ago who had a problem. 09:34.880 --> 09:37.070 There was nothing erotic about wearing his wife's 09:37.080 --> 09:38.120 underclothing. 09:38.130 --> 09:40.730 It had to be stolen or there was no uh, 09:40.740 --> 09:41.990 arousal in it. 09:42.000 --> 09:43.960 So of course he had a problem with the police. 09:44.640 --> 09:46.360 Uh, 09:46.370 --> 09:48.560 I think by far the most enormous 09:48.570 --> 09:50.860 psychological emotional problems, 09:50.860 --> 09:53.250 however experienced by transsexuals, 09:53.740 --> 09:56.280 there's a person born into the body of one sex, 09:56.290 --> 09:59.030 but feel they have the psyche or the emotions 09:59.030 --> 10:00.600 of the opposite sex. 10:00.610 --> 10:01.080 You know, 10:01.080 --> 10:03.760 when when you realize how heavily rigidly 10:04.240 --> 10:07.010 programmed we are in the 10:07.020 --> 10:09.790 difference between the masculine feminine roles, 10:09.800 --> 10:12.470 imagine what it would be like to have a male body male 10:12.470 --> 10:15.050 genitalia and you just not feel 10:15.050 --> 10:17.850 comfortable unless you were dressed as a woman and 10:17.850 --> 10:20.360 engaging for the most part in female 10:20.360 --> 10:20.960 roles. 10:21.640 --> 10:24.470 So the emotional problems that the transsexual 10:24.480 --> 10:27.190 are enormous And about five or 10:27.190 --> 10:29.450 6 - one transsexuals are males. 10:30.640 --> 10:31.120 However, 10:31.120 --> 10:33.630 I suppose that variety of sexual behavior that 10:33.630 --> 10:36.110 generates the most anxiety, 10:36.110 --> 10:39.060 I suppose because of that the most anger in our society instead of 10:39.060 --> 10:41.250 same sex or homosexual behavior. 10:42.020 --> 10:44.360 I would define a homosexual as a person who 10:45.040 --> 10:47.730 is primarily aroused by and 10:47.730 --> 10:49.270 fulfilled by the same sex, 10:49.270 --> 10:52.210 and I underscore the word primarily because 10:52.220 --> 10:54.990 I don't think there are many exclusive homosexuals, 10:55.080 --> 10:57.350 and I don't think there are many exclusive heterosexuals. 10:57.350 --> 10:57.960 For that matter, 10:57.960 --> 11:00.560 nature doesn't make too many extremes. 11:01.240 --> 11:01.750 Um, 11:02.140 --> 11:05.120 No one knows how many homosexuals or gay people there 11:05.120 --> 11:05.930 are in our society, 11:05.930 --> 11:08.540 Kinsey estimated 4-6 of 11:08.550 --> 11:11.270 males were primarily Homosexual and 11:11.270 --> 11:13.160 2-3 of the females, 11:13.940 --> 11:16.000 everyone I know today in sex research, 11:16.000 --> 11:18.460 including the people who now run the kinsey institute 11:18.840 --> 11:21.370 feel this is one place where kinsey erred rather 11:21.370 --> 11:21.950 grievously, 11:21.950 --> 11:24.750 and it's probably more like 8 to 10% 11:25.340 --> 11:28.060 with the male female percentages being about the same. 11:28.940 --> 11:29.570 Um, 11:29.580 --> 11:31.170 all we can do is guess, 11:31.170 --> 11:31.370 you know, 11:31.370 --> 11:34.040 no one's devised a way of going up and down the neighborhood 11:34.040 --> 11:36.620 streets of our city ringing doorbells and saying, 11:36.620 --> 11:37.750 I'm taking a census. 11:37.760 --> 11:40.360 Would you tell me how many gay people live in this house? 11:41.040 --> 11:43.460 But if we're anywhere near right in our guests, 11:43.840 --> 11:46.700 we're talking about the second largest minority group in 11:46.700 --> 11:49.560 our society and the only minority group, 11:49.560 --> 11:52.340 which it is still legal in most parts of our country 11:52.340 --> 11:55.170 to to discriminate against in 11:55.180 --> 11:57.960 uh employment housing. 11:58.540 --> 12:01.210 The apartment house I lived in my 1st 3 years 12:01.840 --> 12:02.780 in Minneapolis, 12:02.790 --> 12:05.360 still will not rent a one bedroom apartment, 12:05.370 --> 12:08.190 22 males or two females unless 12:08.190 --> 12:09.660 they're related, 12:11.040 --> 12:12.420 department blood relatives. 12:13.340 --> 12:16.030 We discriminated against the membership in clubs, 12:16.030 --> 12:16.620 lodges, 12:16.630 --> 12:17.180 churches, 12:17.180 --> 12:17.980 credit rating, 12:17.980 --> 12:19.550 sometimes and so forth. 12:20.740 --> 12:21.170 You know, 12:21.170 --> 12:23.770 I like to put this whole variety of sexual 12:23.770 --> 12:25.300 behavior we're talking about. 12:25.310 --> 12:27.850 I like to put it in the context of one of my favorite 12:27.850 --> 12:29.860 aspects of nature's creativity, 12:30.440 --> 12:31.940 which are snowflakes. 12:32.640 --> 12:35.540 I don't know how you view snowflakes when they're stacked two or 12:35.540 --> 12:36.450 three ft deep, 12:37.040 --> 12:39.950 but I would suggest to you that individually snowflakes are 12:39.950 --> 12:42.850 incredibly beautiful if you've ever seen a 12:42.850 --> 12:45.160 picture of one under a microscope, 12:45.540 --> 12:47.100 just a beautiful thing. 12:47.110 --> 12:49.860 And I was intrigued to read an article a couple of years ago by 12:49.870 --> 12:52.630 two meteorologists who speculated that 12:52.640 --> 12:55.160 no two snowflakes in history have ever been 12:55.160 --> 12:55.860 identical. 12:56.740 --> 12:56.890 You know, 12:56.890 --> 12:58.560 that sort of boggles my mind. 12:59.040 --> 13:01.690 And I guess further amazed me when they 13:01.690 --> 13:04.610 speculated that the total snowfall in the history of the 13:04.610 --> 13:07.350 world Would equal about 50 times the 13:07.350 --> 13:08.160 mass of the Earth. 13:09.040 --> 13:09.320 You know, 13:09.330 --> 13:10.320 give or take a few. 13:10.320 --> 13:13.180 That's that's a lot of snowflakes and no two 13:13.180 --> 13:13.960 identical. 13:14.340 --> 13:17.030 It seems to me it shouts loud and clear 13:17.030 --> 13:19.120 that nature indeed believes that 13:19.120 --> 13:21.450 variety is the spice of life, 13:22.040 --> 13:24.750 but see our society operates under exactly the 13:24.750 --> 13:25.850 opposite premise. 13:26.540 --> 13:29.290 Our society is constantly seeking to course 13:29.290 --> 13:32.070 conformity and nowhere more 13:32.070 --> 13:33.660 so than the sexual behavior. 13:34.340 --> 13:37.200 And even to this day when people don't conform 13:37.210 --> 13:38.400 to craft endings, 13:38.400 --> 13:41.190 narrow description of normal sexual 13:41.190 --> 13:41.860 behavior. 13:42.440 --> 13:44.960 Our society has its ways of punishing them 13:45.340 --> 13:46.560 sometimes subtly, 13:47.140 --> 13:48.160 often cruelly. 13:48.740 --> 13:51.690 And I think there by our society does enormous 13:51.700 --> 13:54.120 damage really destruction to people's 13:54.120 --> 13:56.920 potential and their productivity and their creativity, 13:56.930 --> 13:59.860 when when we compel a person to go through a lifetime 14:00.340 --> 14:03.320 behaving sexually realizing what an immense 14:03.320 --> 14:05.960 part of our total being our sexuality is 14:06.340 --> 14:09.300 to go through a lifetime behaving sexually in a way they 14:09.300 --> 14:10.350 are not comfortable with. 14:11.140 --> 14:12.960 I think we just destroy the person. 14:13.640 --> 14:15.320 And you know what I'd like to say to you, 14:15.320 --> 14:16.980 especially in answer to that question is, 14:16.980 --> 14:19.830 I think our society be way ahead if we just free 14:19.830 --> 14:22.600 people to behave sexually in a way they're 14:22.600 --> 14:23.460 comfortable with, 14:24.040 --> 14:26.850 as long as they're not infringing on anyone else's 14:27.260 --> 14:30.150 rights are exploiting rather homely way of 14:30.150 --> 14:30.620 putting that. 14:30.620 --> 14:33.260 Someone is supposed to have asked 14:33.740 --> 14:34.500 Pat Campbell, 14:34.500 --> 14:35.970 the friend of George Bernard shaw, 14:35.970 --> 14:38.820 what she thought about the growing sexual permissiveness of her 14:38.820 --> 14:41.690 day and she said let the people do what they 14:41.690 --> 14:44.160 want as long as they don't do it in the streets 14:44.160 --> 14:46.160 and scare the horses. 14:46.740 --> 14:49.620 And that's really the way I feel about let's let people be 14:49.620 --> 14:50.460 themselves. 14:51.040 --> 14:52.250 And if I don't like, 14:52.260 --> 14:55.230 you know if I'm uncomfortable sitting in my living room thinking about 14:55.230 --> 14:58.150 what Mr mrs smith are doing in their bedroom next door, 14:58.740 --> 14:59.990 I think that's my problem. 14:59.990 --> 15:02.970 I don't think I thereby have a right to coerce Mr 15:02.970 --> 15:05.810 and mrs smith to change their sexual behavior so that I 15:05.810 --> 15:08.360 can feel good about it as I sit in front of my 15:08.360 --> 15:11.360 television set and I read my book or whatever 15:11.370 --> 15:11.960 in the living room. 15:13.740 --> 15:14.110 You know, 15:14.120 --> 15:16.850 another way of making this a little more graphic for you. 15:16.850 --> 15:17.810 And uh, 15:17.820 --> 15:19.400 to do a little live research, 15:19.410 --> 15:22.390 sex research with you Kinsey for the sake of all 15:22.390 --> 15:23.970 those 18,000 interviews. 15:23.970 --> 15:26.820 He did put everyone on a sexual 15:26.820 --> 15:29.800 continuum or scale from 0 to 15:29.800 --> 15:32.370 6 with a zero representing an exclusive 15:32.380 --> 15:33.860 heterosexual behavior, 15:33.860 --> 15:34.950 opposite sex, 15:34.960 --> 15:36.670 they're attracted to the opposite sex. 15:36.680 --> 15:39.070 A six representing an exclusive 15:39.080 --> 15:40.450 homosexual behavior. 15:40.840 --> 15:43.820 And if you can imagine that scale on the wall behind 15:43.820 --> 15:44.050 me, 15:44.050 --> 15:46.850 with zero over here and and the six over 15:46.850 --> 15:47.440 here, 15:47.450 --> 15:49.850 put yourself on that scale in two 15:49.850 --> 15:50.570 respects. 15:51.440 --> 15:51.770 1st, 15:51.770 --> 15:53.260 ask your sexual behavior 15:54.340 --> 15:56.060 if you don't get drunk very often, 15:56.060 --> 15:57.590 that shouldn't be too difficult. 15:57.600 --> 15:57.960 Right? 15:58.340 --> 16:00.560 Remember which sex you've been in bed with more often, 16:01.240 --> 16:02.320 but more significant. 16:02.320 --> 16:04.570 Put yourself on that scale as to your sexual 16:04.570 --> 16:05.490 fantasies, 16:05.940 --> 16:07.760 your masturbatory fantasies. 16:08.440 --> 16:11.340 And I would suggest to you the greater disparity between those two 16:11.340 --> 16:11.870 marks, 16:11.880 --> 16:13.750 the unhappier person you are. 16:14.640 --> 16:15.450 Give an example. 16:15.450 --> 16:16.050 I had a, 16:16.640 --> 16:16.940 hey, 16:16.940 --> 16:17.370 let's say, 16:17.370 --> 16:18.330 a high school teacher. 16:18.330 --> 16:20.980 It was a professional person who came in several years 16:20.980 --> 16:21.440 ago. 16:21.450 --> 16:22.050 He said, 16:22.050 --> 16:24.670 I'm so disturbed or upset about my sexuality, 16:24.670 --> 16:26.660 I'm just not functioning in my profession. 16:27.140 --> 16:27.520 I asked him, 16:27.520 --> 16:30.450 put himself on the scale of those two respects as to sexual 16:30.450 --> 16:30.920 behavior. 16:30.920 --> 16:31.340 He said, 16:31.340 --> 16:31.850 zero, 16:32.440 --> 16:35.250 the only person he had ever had sex with was his wife. 16:35.250 --> 16:36.060 Heterosexual. 16:36.640 --> 16:39.190 His masturbatory fantasies since puberty 16:40.240 --> 16:41.040 way over here, 16:41.040 --> 16:42.070 5.5, 16:43.140 --> 16:45.910 you can imagine why he wasn't functioning his profession. 16:46.340 --> 16:48.560 I'm sure it wasn't even functioning as a person. 16:49.240 --> 16:52.210 And so I'm saying when we course that kind of a thing to happen, 16:52.210 --> 16:55.050 we're creating tragedy and we should free people to 16:55.050 --> 16:56.970 behave sexually in the way they're comfortable with. 16:57.940 --> 16:58.470 Um, 16:59.140 --> 16:59.780 so really, 16:59.780 --> 17:02.360 essentially what I'm saying to you is what we're talking about a 17:02.360 --> 17:03.270 homosexual. 17:03.640 --> 17:04.870 We're not talking a gay person, 17:04.870 --> 17:07.360 we're not talking about somebody who is a different kind of being. 17:08.040 --> 17:08.240 You know, 17:08.240 --> 17:10.670 we're really talking about somebody who's different degrees. 17:10.670 --> 17:11.330 And my point is, 17:11.330 --> 17:12.630 we're all different degrees. 17:12.660 --> 17:12.990 No. 17:12.990 --> 17:14.300 Two of us in this room, 17:14.490 --> 17:17.230 like fingerprints or snowflakes would have 17:17.230 --> 17:20.170 exactly the same sexual orientation on that 17:20.170 --> 17:21.920 scale of 0-6. 17:23.340 --> 17:23.680 Of course, 17:23.680 --> 17:26.470 a you people are medical people are medically 17:26.470 --> 17:27.250 oriented and, 17:27.250 --> 17:27.520 and, 17:27.520 --> 17:27.890 and, 17:27.900 --> 17:28.270 uh, 17:28.280 --> 17:31.140 I'm sure chief for prime question in your mind is 17:31.150 --> 17:32.960 what causes homosexuality. 17:33.740 --> 17:34.240 Yeah, 17:34.250 --> 17:34.960 I have to say. 17:34.960 --> 17:35.900 Emphatically, 17:35.910 --> 17:37.670 no one knows what causes it. 17:38.440 --> 17:40.120 We have different hypotheses. 17:40.120 --> 17:42.930 There's the sickness theory that male 17:42.930 --> 17:44.510 homosexuals is made, 17:44.510 --> 17:45.950 and we never worry about lesbians, 17:46.340 --> 17:49.230 but is caused by the fact that he has a mother who has 17:49.230 --> 17:51.810 been overly dominant in his life and uh, 17:51.820 --> 17:53.760 either consciously or unconsciously, 17:53.760 --> 17:56.700 she is seductive of her son and the fathers of 17:56.700 --> 17:59.120 failures of father figure in the sun's eyes. 17:59.130 --> 18:00.350 I've over simplified it, 18:00.740 --> 18:03.620 but that's the so called sickness theory and having 18:03.620 --> 18:06.430 worked with thousands of families over the last 32 or 18:06.430 --> 18:07.000 three years, 18:07.000 --> 18:09.900 I have to say if that's what causes homosexuality, 18:09.900 --> 18:12.670 it ought to be not 87 or 8 to 10% 18:13.140 --> 18:14.970 It ought to be around 80%. 18:15.090 --> 18:15.380 You know, 18:15.380 --> 18:17.840 that just describes an inordinate number of American 18:17.840 --> 18:18.560 families. 18:19.640 --> 18:21.870 I'd like to share my own hypothesis. 18:22.050 --> 18:24.780 I think we're all born with an appetite for food and an 18:24.780 --> 18:26.060 appetite for sex. 18:26.740 --> 18:29.480 And I think there are two basic factors that determine what 18:29.480 --> 18:31.060 foods we like and dislike, 18:31.540 --> 18:33.670 what sex we like and dislike. 18:34.340 --> 18:37.100 And those two factors are first of all, 18:37.100 --> 18:39.020 our biological predisposition, 18:39.340 --> 18:39.620 you know, 18:39.620 --> 18:41.660 the whole inherited genetic factor, 18:42.040 --> 18:45.030 the body chemistry we have at birth because I think we're all 18:45.030 --> 18:47.690 like sort of a piece of modeling clay at birth only were 18:47.690 --> 18:48.960 different consistency, 18:49.740 --> 18:52.090 then what the early learning experience 18:52.100 --> 18:54.550 does to that potential 18:55.840 --> 18:57.940 and nobody knows emphatically again, 18:57.940 --> 18:59.840 what those early learning experiences, 18:59.840 --> 19:02.820 maybe that tend to push a person toward being gay or being 19:02.820 --> 19:04.660 straight or being by or whatever. 19:05.340 --> 19:05.990 Incidentally, 19:05.990 --> 19:06.940 wainwright Churchill, 19:06.940 --> 19:09.520 who I who I think has written one of the few good books on 19:09.520 --> 19:10.650 homosexuality, 19:10.660 --> 19:12.090 says in his estimation, 19:12.090 --> 19:14.220 if there were any such thing as a norm, 19:14.230 --> 19:15.960 it would be bisexuality. 19:16.540 --> 19:19.280 But because of the sexually oppressive nature of our society, 19:19.280 --> 19:22.210 most people find it easier to polarizing either 19:22.210 --> 19:24.160 straight or gay lifestyle. 19:25.440 --> 19:25.900 Well, 19:26.080 --> 19:26.330 you know, 19:26.330 --> 19:29.280 to give an example of my hypothesis this these two 19:29.280 --> 19:29.960 factors, 19:30.340 --> 19:30.760 for instance, 19:30.770 --> 19:33.740 if I had had exactly the same parents, 19:33.740 --> 19:35.350 the same early learning experience, 19:35.360 --> 19:35.770 everything. 19:35.770 --> 19:38.750 Say that Schakowsky had or 19:38.750 --> 19:40.050 Beethoven or Mozart, 19:40.640 --> 19:41.350 I assure you, 19:41.350 --> 19:43.800 you'd never hear of tom our as a musician. 19:44.440 --> 19:47.050 Just no musical potential in me at birth 19:47.640 --> 19:48.600 to my regret, 19:48.790 --> 19:51.040 no learning experience could have made me 19:51.340 --> 19:53.270 learn how to play the piano. 19:53.840 --> 19:54.260 Ah, 19:54.740 --> 19:56.910 though I desperately tried on two occasions, 19:56.910 --> 19:59.780 just a flop or to put it in a sexual 19:59.780 --> 20:00.320 context. 20:00.320 --> 20:01.620 My next older brother on, 20:01.630 --> 20:03.720 on this scale you have back here, 20:03.730 --> 20:04.420 well, 20:04.430 --> 20:06.340 he'd be over here to the left somewhere, 20:06.340 --> 20:06.550 you know, 20:06.560 --> 20:07.960 really a double zero. 20:08.340 --> 20:10.170 He's just incredibly straight. 20:10.250 --> 20:13.220 I can't imagine any learning early learning experience, 20:13.250 --> 20:16.240 set up parents or anything that would have made him anything more than maybe 20:16.240 --> 20:18.270 just plane zero. 20:19.640 --> 20:22.120 I guess it's pretty obvious that from what I'm saying, 20:22.120 --> 20:24.290 I therefore don't believe in trying to change 20:24.290 --> 20:25.270 homosexuals. 20:25.640 --> 20:28.610 Not too many years ago we did front of the bottom ease that didn't 20:28.610 --> 20:30.770 seem to help much and then shock treatment. 20:31.240 --> 20:34.190 I guess the fad today's behavior modification which I 20:34.190 --> 20:37.080 think has some values and certain kinds of personality 20:37.080 --> 20:37.770 disorders. 20:38.340 --> 20:41.130 But I hope it's pretty evident to you that the only 20:41.130 --> 20:43.480 behavior and I'm interested in modifying his 20:43.480 --> 20:46.450 societies again to uh to get 20:46.450 --> 20:49.380 our society to let people be themselves to 20:49.380 --> 20:51.460 behave section the way they're comfortable. 20:52.440 --> 20:53.010 You know, 20:53.020 --> 20:54.660 I had a man a few months ago, 20:54.660 --> 20:57.530 he said tom I don't mind gay people having 20:57.530 --> 20:58.060 their rights, 20:58.060 --> 21:00.860 but he said why do they have to flaunt being gay? 21:01.240 --> 21:04.200 And I sort of intrigued me and I probe to find out what 21:04.200 --> 21:06.670 he's referring to and it turned out what he meant by flaunting. 21:06.670 --> 21:08.670 He was talking about gay liberation. 21:09.840 --> 21:12.680 Well I think gay liberation is about the same 21:12.680 --> 21:14.300 issues as women's liberation. 21:14.300 --> 21:16.840 Black liberation american indian liberation. 21:16.850 --> 21:19.450 These are all people who have been kept second class 21:19.450 --> 21:22.380 citizens in our society who in this day 21:22.380 --> 21:23.150 of liberation, 21:23.150 --> 21:24.570 as I said to you earlier, 21:24.570 --> 21:26.750 jim an answer to your question. 21:26.760 --> 21:29.450 They are demanding now the right to be first class 21:29.520 --> 21:30.060 citizens. 21:30.440 --> 21:33.390 That's going to be their choice whether they're sexually active or 21:33.390 --> 21:33.670 not. 21:34.040 --> 21:34.510 Again, 21:34.510 --> 21:36.560 as long as they're not exploiting other people. 21:37.040 --> 21:39.510 I think gay people and gay liberation 21:39.510 --> 21:41.770 like any other members of just 21:42.140 --> 21:44.270 discriminated against minority group. 21:44.280 --> 21:46.480 Number one thing is the pocketbook they want to be 21:46.480 --> 21:49.400 employed and promoted on the basis of 21:49.400 --> 21:51.370 their competence to do a job, 21:51.380 --> 21:54.200 not on the basis of what they do in bed sort of 21:54.200 --> 21:56.970 makes a lot of sense to me the second thing and this 21:56.970 --> 21:59.960 applies a little more to the male gay than the female. 22:00.340 --> 22:02.260 They would like the end of police harassment, 22:02.260 --> 22:02.880 enticement, 22:02.880 --> 22:04.360 entrapment and brutality, 22:04.740 --> 22:06.860 incredible story of most american cities. 22:07.240 --> 22:07.810 You know, 22:07.850 --> 22:10.820 I think probably the most damnable thing we do to gay people is to 22:10.820 --> 22:13.610 compel them to wait until they're drinking age before they can have their 22:13.610 --> 22:14.260 first date. 22:15.340 --> 22:18.270 How's the 17 year old gay boy or girl going to get a date in 22:18.270 --> 22:20.360 high school classroom or the church, 22:20.360 --> 22:21.960 youth group of the Y Swimming Club. 22:22.740 --> 22:25.050 So they have to wait until they can go to a gay bar. 22:25.440 --> 22:28.440 I think the bars that sort of a lousy place to get a date whether you're gay 22:28.440 --> 22:29.060 or straight. 22:29.940 --> 22:32.420 And so in our state that means they have to be 18 22:32.420 --> 22:33.120 California, 22:33.120 --> 22:35.920 they have to be 21 that's pretty late to be getting your 22:35.920 --> 22:36.560 first date. 22:37.040 --> 22:39.890 So what I'm saying is that the police departments in most american 22:39.890 --> 22:42.560 cities have an inordinate proclivity to harass and 22:42.560 --> 22:43.630 raid uh, 22:43.640 --> 22:46.480 these kinds of gay establishments and they would like the 22:46.480 --> 22:48.160 end of that kind of treatment. 22:48.160 --> 22:49.420 The worst cities of Chicago, 22:49.420 --> 22:52.310 los Angeles and Miami least amount of it goes 22:52.310 --> 22:54.810 on in twin cities for 22:54.820 --> 22:56.410 some reason, 22:56.410 --> 22:57.520 unknown to me at any rate, 22:57.530 --> 22:58.860 almost to the point of zero, 22:58.860 --> 22:59.460 not quite. 23:00.210 --> 23:00.810 The third thing, 23:00.810 --> 23:03.720 of course is the change of state laws so that no longer be a 23:03.720 --> 23:06.450 felony to engage in same sex 23:06.450 --> 23:06.930 behavior. 23:07.260 --> 23:07.850 But you know, 23:07.850 --> 23:08.800 the fourth and last, 23:08.800 --> 23:11.060 by far the most important thing to you people, 23:12.040 --> 23:13.770 gay people would like to be accepted. 23:15.240 --> 23:18.090 Uh I know you're all interested in mental health. 23:18.100 --> 23:20.770 I presume you would agree with me that 9/10 of being 23:20.770 --> 23:23.060 mentally healthy is to have a good self image 23:24.940 --> 23:27.180 to either be able to say I'm okay, 23:27.180 --> 23:28.140 you're okay. 23:28.150 --> 23:29.770 Or even to say I'm OK, 23:29.770 --> 23:30.550 you're a jerk. 23:31.240 --> 23:33.770 But you see most gay people reverse it. 23:33.780 --> 23:35.050 They say I'm a jerk, 23:35.060 --> 23:37.820 you're okay Because 23:37.830 --> 23:40.510 just coming through their formative teenage years, 23:40.510 --> 23:43.480 imagine how an 18 year old gay boy or girl feels with the 23:43.480 --> 23:46.090 church usually telling them they're hopeless centers because they're 23:46.090 --> 23:46.560 gay. 23:47.040 --> 23:48.690 Their doctors more often than not, 23:48.690 --> 23:51.400 still telling them they're sick and the state law 23:51.400 --> 23:52.960 saying you're a common criminal, 23:53.940 --> 23:56.460 their self image is about as low as it can be, 23:57.140 --> 24:00.100 but that they would just like to be accepted as persons again, 24:00.100 --> 24:02.670 as long as they're not infringing on somebody else's, 24:02.670 --> 24:02.960 right. 24:03.930 --> 24:05.760 I had a personal example of that about, 24:06.240 --> 24:06.520 well, 24:06.520 --> 24:09.260 several years ago I was caught in a a 24:09.270 --> 24:11.750 blizzard in Baltimore late in the afternoon. 24:11.750 --> 24:13.810 They say said if we'd wait a couple hours, 24:13.810 --> 24:15.360 they hope to get a runway plowed. 24:15.940 --> 24:17.400 So being that time of the day, 24:17.400 --> 24:20.360 I went into the airport barred to get myself 24:20.370 --> 24:21.810 plowed or whatever. 24:21.820 --> 24:22.220 Anyway, 24:22.220 --> 24:22.400 no, 24:22.400 --> 24:23.590 to enjoy a social drink, 24:23.590 --> 24:23.880 okay? 24:23.890 --> 24:26.600 And there was this distinguished gentleman sitting next to me 24:26.600 --> 24:29.460 and he started telling me what he did for your living in. 24:29.940 --> 24:30.400 Incidentally, 24:30.400 --> 24:33.350 I've gotten a place where rather dread those proverbial moments when a 24:33.350 --> 24:36.300 stranger sitting next to you on the airplane starts to say what they 24:36.310 --> 24:37.510 do and you know, 24:37.510 --> 24:38.910 in a few minutes they're gonna stop and say, 24:38.920 --> 24:39.930 uh by the way, 24:39.930 --> 24:40.560 what do you do? 24:41.340 --> 24:42.060 And he did. 24:42.440 --> 24:43.860 So I decided to risk it. 24:43.860 --> 24:44.200 And I said, 24:44.200 --> 24:44.320 well, 24:44.320 --> 24:47.010 I lecture and council on human sexuality, 24:47.020 --> 24:48.860 particularly homosexuality. 24:49.540 --> 24:49.920 He said, 24:49.920 --> 24:50.420 oh God, 24:50.430 --> 24:51.920 keep me away from those queers. 24:52.940 --> 24:55.230 And I think it's one of the finer moments in my life. 24:55.230 --> 24:57.380 I looked him up and down from head to toe. 24:57.380 --> 24:58.640 And finally I said, 24:58.650 --> 24:58.850 uh, 24:59.440 --> 24:59.790 well, 25:00.210 --> 25:02.050 I'm gonna stay right here and finish my drink. 25:02.740 --> 25:05.410 If you want to move to the other end of the bar, 25:05.630 --> 25:06.680 please feel free to do. 25:06.680 --> 25:06.960 So. 25:07.840 --> 25:10.450 He did the classical double take and 25:10.840 --> 25:11.890 and I give him credit. 25:11.890 --> 25:13.660 He ended up buying me a second drink, 25:14.140 --> 25:16.860 which he needed more than I did. 25:17.840 --> 25:18.630 But my point is, 25:18.630 --> 25:18.800 you know, 25:18.800 --> 25:21.170 what does my sexual orientation have to do 25:21.540 --> 25:24.470 uh with enjoying a social 25:24.470 --> 25:26.350 drink in a public bar with a stranger. 25:27.440 --> 25:28.020 You know, 25:28.020 --> 25:30.890 I know it's easier to accept people if we can approve of the way 25:30.890 --> 25:31.560 they live, 25:31.570 --> 25:34.360 but I just want to gently say that even though we don't 25:34.370 --> 25:34.870 approve, 25:34.870 --> 25:35.310 I think, 25:35.320 --> 25:35.690 you know, 25:35.690 --> 25:36.860 we can't accept them. 25:37.740 --> 25:40.520 And I guess it's easier to accept people if we understand them, 25:40.520 --> 25:42.170 but we still don't have to understand. 25:43.740 --> 25:46.120 I was having thanksgiving dinner with my 25:46.430 --> 25:48.560 double zero brother a couple years ago, 25:49.140 --> 25:51.710 he said tom I respect you as much as anyone I know. 25:51.710 --> 25:52.440 But he said, 25:52.440 --> 25:54.960 I just can't imagine two guys going to bed together. 25:55.840 --> 25:56.590 I said spend, 25:56.590 --> 25:56.800 look, 25:56.800 --> 25:59.580 this society has brainwashed me for over 50 25:59.580 --> 26:02.170 years that a guy and a girl going to bed together. 26:02.540 --> 26:04.060 I still can't imagine. 26:04.940 --> 26:06.050 But I accept it. 26:06.940 --> 26:07.490 And you know, 26:07.490 --> 26:10.460 most of us say we can't fantasy about our parents having sex. 26:10.460 --> 26:10.720 Well, 26:11.140 --> 26:14.090 I can't Fantasy never have been able to fantasy about any 26:14.090 --> 26:15.560 man and woman having sex. 26:15.570 --> 26:16.350 Unfortunately, 26:16.350 --> 26:18.360 I guess I'm a double zero over here. 26:18.940 --> 26:21.930 But the point is I accept I have officiated over 1000 26:21.930 --> 26:23.100 weddings as a minister. 26:23.110 --> 26:25.840 I wouldn't do that if I didn't accept what's 26:25.840 --> 26:26.460 going on. 26:27.040 --> 26:28.860 I just don't understand it. 26:30.440 --> 26:33.150 Um maybe I ought to say just a couple of words about some of the 26:33.150 --> 26:35.790 more prominent myths about gay 26:35.790 --> 26:36.280 people. 26:36.280 --> 26:39.080 I presume you're aware of this an inordinate number of 26:39.090 --> 26:39.350 them. 26:40.440 --> 26:43.230 I suppose the most prominent myth is that you can tell a 26:43.230 --> 26:45.410 gay person and honestly, 26:45.410 --> 26:47.890 if if any of you know how to tell a gay person, 26:47.890 --> 26:49.820 please share the secret with me. 26:49.830 --> 26:50.260 You know, 26:50.260 --> 26:52.260 it saved me a lot of wasted effort. 26:52.270 --> 26:53.050 Whatever. 26:53.440 --> 26:53.830 I mean, 26:53.840 --> 26:54.100 you know, 26:54.100 --> 26:56.920 we can all tell the limp wrist nelly faggot who goes 26:56.920 --> 26:59.000 swishing screaming down the sidewalk, 26:59.000 --> 27:00.620 yelling mary or the, 27:00.620 --> 27:02.790 or the bull dyke and high hip boots, 27:02.800 --> 27:03.290 uh, 27:03.300 --> 27:06.080 driving a snowplow down the block or whatever. 27:06.090 --> 27:07.960 But that's a very small minority. 27:08.240 --> 27:09.980 And even then you can be wrong. 27:09.980 --> 27:10.210 You know, 27:10.210 --> 27:12.850 the most effeminate man on the campus where I went to 27:12.850 --> 27:15.560 college was very heterosexual 27:15.560 --> 27:15.860 man. 27:16.540 --> 27:19.520 I only know three pro football players who are 27:19.520 --> 27:20.280 gay, 27:20.290 --> 27:22.310 one of my city and two others, 27:22.310 --> 27:24.990 but I assure you can't tell they're gay by the way they 27:24.990 --> 27:26.050 block and tackle. 27:26.840 --> 27:29.780 I guess another myth is that homosexuals are all pdf 27:29.780 --> 27:30.390 files, 27:30.400 --> 27:31.550 they molest Children. 27:32.140 --> 27:34.570 We actually have hardcore police statistics 27:35.140 --> 27:37.170 compiled nationally by the FBI, 27:37.640 --> 27:39.460 which guest doesn't mean much anymore. 27:39.840 --> 27:40.350 Um, 27:40.940 --> 27:42.810 That for some unknown reason, 27:42.810 --> 27:45.280 a disproportionately small percentage of 27:45.290 --> 27:48.010 adults arrested for molesting Children are 27:48.010 --> 27:48.420 gay, 27:48.420 --> 27:49.550 less than 5%. 27:50.840 --> 27:53.800 Another myth is a gay people are inordinately creative 27:53.800 --> 27:54.560 and artistic. 27:55.140 --> 27:56.270 I wish that were true. 27:57.040 --> 27:57.270 You know, 27:57.270 --> 28:00.030 I was part of the Kinsey study of homosexuality in San 28:00.030 --> 28:02.650 Francisco several years ago and got to know three or 28:02.650 --> 28:05.580 4000 homosexuals and I can assure you 28:05.580 --> 28:07.860 an awful lot of us are just playing Claude's. 28:08.340 --> 28:11.260 I think what happens is I'm sure there's a disproportionately 28:11.260 --> 28:13.780 high percentage of gay people in the arts. 28:14.540 --> 28:15.730 But I think the reason is, 28:15.730 --> 28:18.660 especially with the males That you 28:18.660 --> 28:21.190 say you have a 17 year old boy wants to be a ballet 28:21.190 --> 28:21.770 dancer. 28:22.440 --> 28:23.840 He might as well go ahead and do it. 28:23.840 --> 28:25.590 He can't disappoint his family anymore, 28:25.590 --> 28:27.270 and he already is by being gay. 28:27.840 --> 28:30.770 But if you have a 17 year old straight boy who wants to 28:30.770 --> 28:31.950 be a ballet dancer, 28:32.440 --> 28:33.380 his parents are gonna say, 28:33.380 --> 28:34.460 for God's sake, 28:34.460 --> 28:34.740 son, 28:34.740 --> 28:35.950 you're supposed to play football, 28:35.950 --> 28:38.350 not ballet or whatever it is you do with ballet. 28:39.140 --> 28:39.670 Uh, 28:40.440 --> 28:41.010 So, 28:41.020 --> 28:41.230 you know, 28:41.240 --> 28:42.380 really unfortunate. 28:42.380 --> 28:45.230 Neither Dwight Eisenhower or Winston 28:45.230 --> 28:48.230 Churchill ever had a paintbrush in their hands until there 28:48.230 --> 28:51.230 were over 50 and yet they both proved to have exceptional 28:51.230 --> 28:52.360 artistic ability. 28:52.940 --> 28:53.920 But when church are, 28:53.920 --> 28:55.390 when Eisenhower is young, 28:55.390 --> 28:55.570 you know, 28:55.570 --> 28:58.160 he had to play football and Churchill had to play 28:58.540 --> 29:00.850 rugby or whatever it is they do over there. 29:01.440 --> 29:04.360 Another myth is that gay people hate 29:04.360 --> 29:05.550 the opposite sex. 29:05.940 --> 29:08.310 I know a few who do for the most part, 29:08.310 --> 29:10.750 gay people get along better with the opposite sex. 29:10.760 --> 29:11.430 However, 29:11.430 --> 29:13.350 because they're not playing sexual games 29:14.440 --> 29:17.370 and so I could go on and on 29:17.370 --> 29:18.720 about more and more myths, 29:18.720 --> 29:21.670 but we have a few minutes left and I think I've 29:21.670 --> 29:22.900 done all the talking here. 29:22.900 --> 29:25.650 I'm sure you have some questions or comments you'd like to 29:25.650 --> 29:26.160 make, 29:26.540 --> 29:27.560 Let me say, 29:28.140 --> 29:29.590 you can stump me easily, 29:29.600 --> 29:29.930 uh, 29:29.940 --> 29:31.370 but you can't embarrass me. 29:31.370 --> 29:33.510 So any personal question or whatever you, 29:33.520 --> 29:34.630 any of you may want to ask, 29:34.630 --> 29:37.160 please feel free to or any rebuttal or 29:37.170 --> 29:40.070 reputation ask a question you 29:40.070 --> 29:42.860 mentioned earlier about the heavy 29:42.870 --> 29:45.510 conditioning of specific roles that we all go 29:45.520 --> 29:47.960 through and we sort of get polarized. 29:47.970 --> 29:49.670 We have to be something very clear. 29:50.140 --> 29:52.730 It seems to me that you would have gone through a 29:52.740 --> 29:55.450 period of quite a bit of confusion about 29:55.940 --> 29:57.280 your own orientation. 29:58.440 --> 30:01.390 Maybe you could tell me when you were sure what 30:01.400 --> 30:02.710 that was for you? 30:03.000 --> 30:04.820 When was I sure that I was gay? 30:04.830 --> 30:05.230 Right. 30:05.700 --> 30:06.150 Well, 30:06.160 --> 30:07.720 you have to put it in perspective. 30:07.720 --> 30:08.080 Richard, 30:08.080 --> 30:08.270 you know, 30:08.270 --> 30:10.650 I come from a generation about three 30:10.650 --> 30:12.030 generations back or whatever. 30:12.030 --> 30:12.190 You know, 30:12.190 --> 30:13.480 when I went through adolescence, 30:14.040 --> 30:14.500 okay, 30:14.500 --> 30:17.380 I knew what turned me on sexually when I 30:17.380 --> 30:18.360 was 10.5, 30:18.360 --> 30:21.280 I guess the first time I masturbated and 30:21.280 --> 30:22.540 it's never been a different. 30:22.540 --> 30:25.310 I've tried to fantasy about females or women and 30:25.310 --> 30:26.950 just just doesn't wash. 30:27.740 --> 30:27.970 Of course, 30:27.970 --> 30:30.080 you have to realize this is what I was leading up to. 30:30.080 --> 30:32.770 I I didn't know there was another homosexual in the world 30:32.770 --> 30:35.270 until I was in history until I was 17. 30:35.940 --> 30:38.930 And to think you're one of a kind is sort of like going to hell in 30:38.930 --> 30:39.960 a handbasket. 30:40.540 --> 30:43.450 I never met another gay person that I knew 30:43.450 --> 30:45.790 was gay and he knew I was telling 26. 30:46.240 --> 30:48.670 fortunately that kind of thing wouldn't happen today. 30:49.040 --> 30:49.790 But yeah, 30:49.800 --> 30:52.500 most gay people I know and I'm no exception, 30:52.510 --> 30:55.270 desperately trying to relate heterosexual guy 30:55.280 --> 30:56.270 I dated. 30:56.640 --> 30:57.850 I tried to smooth, 30:57.860 --> 31:00.720 tried to neck and I used to enjoy 31:00.730 --> 31:03.320 dating because I took out girls I liked for 31:03.320 --> 31:04.060 companions. 31:04.060 --> 31:06.660 And the only bad part is when you had to kiss him goodnight at the 31:06.670 --> 31:07.300 door. 31:07.540 --> 31:09.660 I guess today you wouldn't get away with that little. 31:10.240 --> 31:10.930 So, 31:10.940 --> 31:11.960 uh, 31:11.970 --> 31:12.400 you know, 31:12.410 --> 31:12.830 tim, 31:12.830 --> 31:14.380 I knew what turned me on. 31:14.380 --> 31:15.550 It's never been different. 31:17.140 --> 31:17.340 Yeah. 31:18.440 --> 31:19.490 Any other questions. 31:20.440 --> 31:21.170 I had a question. 31:21.170 --> 31:23.810 I was just wondering what you thought about 31:23.810 --> 31:26.130 the new standard american 31:26.140 --> 31:28.470 psychiatric association on this 31:28.470 --> 31:30.660 specific the issue of 31:30.670 --> 31:33.270 homosexuality and variant sexual behavior. 31:33.740 --> 31:36.640 The american psychiatric association changed their 31:36.640 --> 31:38.230 stand two years ago, 31:38.230 --> 31:39.220 this coming december. 31:39.220 --> 31:39.680 Actually, 31:39.680 --> 31:40.810 their board did. 31:41.240 --> 31:43.710 And there was such a human cry that they had to have a national 31:43.720 --> 31:44.960 referendum, 31:45.340 --> 31:47.670 their whole membership and they sustained 31:48.240 --> 31:50.430 and supported the action of the board. 31:50.520 --> 31:52.580 I think there's quite a bit of confusion about that. 31:52.590 --> 31:55.580 What they did was to remove homosexuality from 31:55.580 --> 31:57.660 the category of mental disturbance. 31:58.440 --> 32:01.270 They went on to say that it may and the 32:01.270 --> 32:02.470 word May is very important. 32:02.480 --> 32:05.170 It may be a sexual orientation 32:05.180 --> 32:06.100 disturbance. 32:06.110 --> 32:07.670 Just may not is. 32:08.440 --> 32:11.420 So that was really a great step for them to take that 32:11.430 --> 32:14.220 because our society still takes the 32:14.230 --> 32:16.610 I think the word of psychiatrist is very 32:16.610 --> 32:17.670 important. 32:18.140 --> 32:19.610 This sexual things, 32:19.920 --> 32:20.630 incidentally, 32:20.640 --> 32:21.040 Michael, 32:21.040 --> 32:22.160 you might be interested to know. 32:22.160 --> 32:24.260 I sent them a telegram and 32:24.260 --> 32:27.170 congratulated them on their courage to take this 32:27.170 --> 32:29.160 step and asked them if it was retroactive. 32:29.940 --> 32:32.690 They 32:32.700 --> 32:33.660 didn't respond. 32:34.040 --> 32:34.270 Thanks. 32:34.740 --> 32:36.050 Yeah. 32:37.340 --> 32:39.760 Tom I have a question is sort of a double 32:39.760 --> 32:40.460 question. 32:40.940 --> 32:41.290 Uh, 32:41.300 --> 32:42.520 since your minister. 32:42.530 --> 32:42.970 Uh, 32:42.980 --> 32:45.210 the first part of my question is, 32:45.220 --> 32:45.840 uh, 32:45.850 --> 32:48.550 what made you decide since you knew that you were 32:48.550 --> 32:50.070 gay at such an early age? 32:50.070 --> 32:52.210 What made you decide to go into the ministry? 32:52.220 --> 32:54.150 Considering the whole religious aspect on 32:54.150 --> 32:55.270 homosexuality? 32:55.640 --> 32:58.620 And then the other party is that when you're bored, 32:58.620 --> 33:00.040 found out that you were gay, 33:00.050 --> 33:01.610 how did they deal with this? 33:02.340 --> 33:02.680 Well, 33:02.690 --> 33:04.170 as to the first part of your question, 33:04.170 --> 33:06.870 I have to confess a disturbing amount of 33:06.870 --> 33:08.360 naivety on my part. 33:08.940 --> 33:09.660 Uh, 33:10.140 --> 33:11.730 I don't think I was really, 33:11.730 --> 33:14.170 I knew the church was against homosexuality. 33:14.180 --> 33:14.580 I know, 33:14.580 --> 33:17.170 so I knew so little about the Bible when I decided to 33:17.180 --> 33:20.160 go into seminary 35 years ago that I wasn't 33:20.160 --> 33:20.960 aware of, 33:20.970 --> 33:23.770 that it had such outright stern 33:23.770 --> 33:26.270 condemnation of homosexual behavior 33:27.040 --> 33:27.360 well. 33:28.140 --> 33:30.770 But I went into the ministry because 33:31.340 --> 33:34.230 I I'm sure there's a lot of reasons. 33:34.230 --> 33:36.780 Let me just point out part of it at age 19. 33:36.780 --> 33:38.930 I knew I was inextricably gay, 33:38.940 --> 33:41.630 neither hell or high water was going to make me anything 33:41.630 --> 33:42.010 else. 33:42.020 --> 33:44.710 Also knew I was inextricably of religious 33:44.710 --> 33:45.270 being. 33:45.740 --> 33:48.510 And so I had to bring those two things two 33:48.520 --> 33:49.070 terms. 33:49.070 --> 33:52.000 And that made me question everything the church ever said 33:52.000 --> 33:52.950 about anything, 33:52.960 --> 33:55.000 which I think is the best thing that ever happened to me. 33:55.000 --> 33:56.100 I wish it happened to everybody. 33:56.100 --> 33:58.750 They come out with some decent religious convictions in my 33:58.750 --> 33:59.450 estimation. 33:59.940 --> 34:01.070 And the more I did that, 34:01.070 --> 34:04.060 the more intrigued I became about the actual possibilities 34:04.060 --> 34:06.020 of religion and what the church could do with it. 34:06.020 --> 34:07.770 And that's what led me into the ministry. 34:08.740 --> 34:11.640 Your second part of your question betrays the naivety on 34:11.640 --> 34:12.630 your part. 34:12.640 --> 34:13.720 Believe me, 34:13.730 --> 34:15.610 my board didn't know I was gay. 34:15.890 --> 34:16.900 You know what it means, 34:16.900 --> 34:17.570 assumption? 34:17.580 --> 34:18.050 Yeah. 34:18.060 --> 34:18.290 You know, 34:18.290 --> 34:19.680 it means to live in the closet. 34:20.240 --> 34:21.030 Um, 34:21.040 --> 34:21.990 I have an idea. 34:22.000 --> 34:22.330 Yeah. 34:22.330 --> 34:22.730 That means, 34:22.730 --> 34:23.100 you know, 34:23.100 --> 34:25.990 you're gay and maybe a few close gay friends or maybe even 34:25.990 --> 34:27.190 one or two straight friends, 34:27.190 --> 34:28.400 but the whole world, 34:28.420 --> 34:29.930 the rest of the world doesn't know it. 34:30.080 --> 34:32.360 I lived a complete double life 34:33.240 --> 34:36.060 and it's rather than intriguing thing I could talk 34:36.060 --> 34:36.550 about it. 34:36.560 --> 34:38.250 It becomes a second nature. 34:38.640 --> 34:39.000 You know, 34:39.000 --> 34:41.520 you lie just with it. 34:41.530 --> 34:44.530 Look just the way you raise an eyebrow like you're sitting around the 34:44.540 --> 34:45.190 fireplace, 34:45.200 --> 34:48.150 christmas eve with your family and your one of your 34:48.150 --> 34:48.800 brothers, 34:48.810 --> 34:50.600 your hair's down. 34:50.600 --> 34:53.010 You've let all the innovations down you're really 34:53.020 --> 34:55.690 sharing on a warm and all of a sudden, 34:55.690 --> 34:58.500 one of your brothers talks about the fucking faggot at the office. 34:58.890 --> 34:59.370 Okay. 34:59.380 --> 35:00.170 And you gotta laugh. 35:00.540 --> 35:01.040 Yeah. 35:01.440 --> 35:03.850 And so it's a rather intriguing thing. 35:03.850 --> 35:04.170 But no, 35:04.170 --> 35:07.050 I didn't come out of the closet until why was with 35:07.050 --> 35:10.030 the Institute for Sex Research the year after I left my last 35:10.040 --> 35:12.920 perish and then decided I was 35:12.920 --> 35:15.880 giving the rest of my life to trying to 35:15.880 --> 35:18.370 create a different climate about human sexuality. 35:18.380 --> 35:18.730 You know, 35:18.730 --> 35:21.060 I'm interested not just in the liberation of 35:21.060 --> 35:23.140 homosexuality or gay people. 35:23.150 --> 35:25.830 I'm interested in the liberation of all human 35:25.830 --> 35:28.430 sexuality because I think it's all part and 35:28.430 --> 35:30.160 parcel and deeply committed to it. 35:30.540 --> 35:30.750 Okay. 35:32.440 --> 35:34.470 Probably have time for another question or two. 35:34.500 --> 35:35.120 Yeah, 35:35.120 --> 35:35.970 I have a question. 35:36.110 --> 35:38.860 I've heard so much about one night stands and gay 35:38.860 --> 35:40.290 bars and things like that. 35:40.300 --> 35:43.020 I'm wondering if gay relationships really are as 35:43.030 --> 35:45.360 temporary as they're always made out to be. 35:46.640 --> 35:49.610 Well diane a lot of things I can say about that 35:49.620 --> 35:52.160 I've done marital counseling for 35:52.640 --> 35:53.870 32 or three years, 35:53.870 --> 35:55.080 it's the only kind of constantly, 35:55.080 --> 35:57.820 I don't enjoy doing so 35:57.820 --> 35:58.580 frustrated. 35:58.640 --> 36:00.390 But you know, 36:00.390 --> 36:01.460 the one thing I have to say, 36:01.460 --> 36:02.040 first of all, 36:02.040 --> 36:05.010 we've got to find some answers for straight relationships. 36:05.410 --> 36:06.240 They're in trouble, 36:07.130 --> 36:10.070 they're not lasting all that much longer than gay 36:10.070 --> 36:11.470 relationships and you know, 36:11.470 --> 36:14.410 they have all the societal pressures going for them 36:14.420 --> 36:15.540 to keep them together, 36:15.550 --> 36:16.470 Children, 36:16.580 --> 36:19.460 the pressure of the employers who don't like their 36:19.460 --> 36:20.040 employees, 36:20.040 --> 36:22.520 that has to be divorced the whole 36:22.520 --> 36:23.080 family, 36:23.080 --> 36:23.890 the society, 36:23.900 --> 36:25.460 everything and they're not doing too well. 36:26.030 --> 36:28.930 Gay relationships have all the societal pressures 36:28.930 --> 36:31.470 going against their being together for two 36:31.470 --> 36:33.470 adults over 30 to live together, 36:33.480 --> 36:35.940 particularly male is really, 36:35.940 --> 36:36.180 you know, 36:36.180 --> 36:38.750 almost have to live in a gay ghetto to bring it off. 36:39.640 --> 36:40.330 And you know, 36:40.340 --> 36:41.180 as an example, 36:41.180 --> 36:43.160 we did the kinsey study. 36:43.630 --> 36:44.250 Um, 36:44.630 --> 36:46.760 one of the men we interviewed was vice president. 36:46.760 --> 36:49.340 One of the largest corporations in SAn Francisco. 36:49.930 --> 36:52.280 His lover was an office worker in that same 36:52.280 --> 36:53.050 corporation. 36:53.930 --> 36:56.350 Imagine all the games they had to play. 36:57.230 --> 36:59.740 You can dine well believe that corporations, 36:59.740 --> 37:02.590 personnel records didn't list the same home address 37:02.590 --> 37:03.460 and phone number, 37:03.930 --> 37:06.460 the annual christmas party for the office staff. 37:06.470 --> 37:08.480 They had to take female dates. 37:09.350 --> 37:10.880 They were smart enough to double date. 37:10.890 --> 37:11.960 But yeah, 37:12.530 --> 37:13.250 so you know, 37:13.260 --> 37:16.250 that makes it difficult to hold a relationship together. 37:16.730 --> 37:19.450 And one final thing I say about that 37:19.450 --> 37:19.960 Diana, 37:20.330 --> 37:21.320 the uh, 37:21.330 --> 37:24.230 the more permissive our society becomes towards gay 37:24.230 --> 37:24.640 people, 37:24.640 --> 37:27.460 the longer their relationships are lasting 37:27.930 --> 37:30.580 lesbian relationships have always lasted much 37:30.580 --> 37:32.150 longer than the male ones, 37:33.030 --> 37:35.960 but the male ones are beginning to last much longer now too, 37:35.960 --> 37:38.660 as our society becomes more accepting now, 37:38.660 --> 37:41.300 why is that the lesbian relationships would be 37:41.300 --> 37:42.450 lasting longer? 37:43.130 --> 37:43.970 I have an idea, 37:43.970 --> 37:46.950 but I'm just wondering I have only one 37:46.950 --> 37:49.500 thought of why lesbian relationships last longer. 37:49.690 --> 37:51.810 Whether it's a cultural brainwashed or not. 37:51.820 --> 37:52.660 We don't know. 37:53.330 --> 37:56.280 But I think that women are 37:56.280 --> 37:59.050 just less predatory than males in our society 38:00.030 --> 38:02.380 And therefore they tend to stay together. 38:02.380 --> 38:05.140 If you went down to the Radisson tonight and found there was a business 38:05.140 --> 38:07.830 convention with 50 women and 50 men, 38:07.840 --> 38:10.570 they're from out of town at midnight tonight, 38:10.580 --> 38:13.150 you would find very few of those men in their room. 38:14.230 --> 38:17.130 Most of the women would either be in their rooms are the 38:17.130 --> 38:19.450 most downstairs in a bar. 38:20.930 --> 38:23.490 So males get out in 38:23.490 --> 38:26.350 the value a lot more than 38:26.360 --> 38:27.000 females. 38:27.000 --> 38:27.620 And therefore, 38:27.620 --> 38:30.210 I think the lesbian relationships have tended I think that's 38:30.210 --> 38:31.210 changing by the way, 38:31.220 --> 38:34.000 because females are feeling freer to go out at 38:34.000 --> 38:35.960 night alone and certain