WEBVTT 00:00:07.170 --> 00:00:08.170 Interviewer:of how you and John Fogarty first met? 00:00:08.170 --> 00:00:09.430 I appreciate you taking the time to do thisinterview. 00:00:09.430 --> 00:00:11.010 Can you tell us again the story 00:00:11.010 --> 00:00:17.790 Melvin Laird: Well, I'm not sure the firstmeeting was the important one. 00:00:17.790 --> 00:00:23.000 But, the first time I wasintroduced to John Fogarty was when the chairman 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:29.850 of his subcommittee and the ranking Republicanon that committee, Frank Keefe of Wisconsin.. 00:00:29.850 --> 00:00:33.440 .I had been out there visiting as the youngstate's 00:00:33.440 --> 00:00:40.990 senator as a guest of Congressmen Burns, Davis,and Ford. 00:00:40.990 --> 00:00:46.490 I was there and I met John that day inthe committee room. 00:00:46.490 --> 00:00:54.320 I did not really get to know him again untilI came to Congress in 1953. 00:00:54.320 --> 00:01:00.000 I wasassigned temporarily to the HEW-Labor subcommittee. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:05.510 John Taber was the ranking Republican andhe was the most senior Republican in the House 00:01:05.510 --> 00:01:11.880 and was on that committee as a ranking Republicanand John was the chairman. 00:01:11.880 --> 00:01:16.630 We kind of hit it off from that time on. 00:01:16.630 --> 00:01:24.020 John was so forthright with me and honestin telling me about how he wanted to run the 00:01:24.020 --> 00:01:28.030 committeeand what we could do and the opportunities 00:01:28.030 --> 00:01:31.380 we had to do things for people. 00:01:31.380 --> 00:01:36.200 He convinced me that itwas the most important committee in the Congress 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:39.109 and that he felt that way. 00:01:39.109 --> 00:01:44.229 After I had served for ayear or two I came to the same conclusion. 00:01:44.229 --> 00:01:49.549 John was always forthright, honest, and hisintegrity 00:01:49.549 --> 00:01:53.219 could not be questioned at any time. 00:01:53.219 --> 00:01:57.049 We played together the game of politics. 00:01:57.049 --> 00:02:01.729 We loved one anotherand we believed that we could get along in 00:02:01.729 --> 00:02:03.679 a bipartisan way. 00:02:03.679 --> 00:02:05.289 Interviewer:Paint a picture for me. 00:02:05.289 --> 00:02:10.550 Tell me a little bit about what he soundedlike, what he looked like, how he dressed. 00:02:10.550 --> 00:02:16.910 Melvin Laird: Well, he wasn't a big dresseror anything but he always looked nice and 00:02:16.910 --> 00:02:17.910 presentable. 00:02:17.910 --> 00:02:21.870 He was always there in a friendly sort ofway. 00:02:21.870 --> 00:02:24.190 He could be very gruff. 00:02:24.190 --> 00:02:27.430 He could be tough as thedickens. 00:02:27.430 --> 00:02:30.940 I should say on a witness. 00:02:30.940 --> 00:02:36.560 But, he wanted to do it for a purpose-to getto the bottom of a 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:37.560 subject. 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:41.000 There was no better interrogator than JohnFogarty. 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:43.799 Interviewer:be on, but I know you had a lot of home state 00:02:43.799 --> 00:02:44.799 support. 00:02:44.799 --> 00:02:48.659 You just told me that he convinced you thiswas the most important subcommittee to 00:02:48.659 --> 00:02:57.331 Melvin Laird: Well, the reason I was interestedin being on the committee and asked the Chairman 00:02:57.331 --> 00:03:05.159 of the House, the Republican side of the committee-JohnTaber worked on that committee-was 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:07.569 because of the Marshfield Clinic. 00:03:07.569 --> 00:03:11.290 There was a great group of doctors out inMarshfield-Dr. Ep- 00:03:11.290 --> 00:03:19.709 stein, Dr. Ben Lawton, Russ Lewis, GeorgeMagnin, Dean Emanuel. 00:03:19.709 --> 00:03:22.930 They all got together with meas I went to Congress. 00:03:22.930 --> 00:03:30.760 They said Mel, you should concentrate on health,medical research, and de- 00:03:30.760 --> 00:03:34.129 livery of health services to people. 00:03:34.129 --> 00:03:39.680 That's an area that needs help and it needsunderstanding. 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:42.430 Wewould appreciate it if you would make an all 00:03:42.430 --> 00:03:45.220 out effort to get on that committee. 00:03:45.220 --> 00:03:48.450 In the first term Ihad a little difficulty. 00:03:48.450 --> 00:03:53.100 I was assigned only as temporary member byJohn Taber because there wasn't 00:03:53.100 --> 00:03:55.190 a vacancy on the committee. 00:03:55.190 --> 00:03:59.950 But, I started going to those committee meetingsas a temporary mem- 00:03:59.950 --> 00:04:05.799 ber at that time and it was a great eye openerfor me. 00:04:05.799 --> 00:04:11.819 But really, it was the drive of those doctorsthere at the Marshfield Clinic that I've just 00:04:11.819 --> 00:04:16.709 named that were important in getting me tobe on that 00:04:16.709 --> 00:04:18.320 committee. 00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:21.670 John had the same kind of support in Providence. 00:04:21.670 --> 00:04:28.750 There were doctors there, members of BrownUniversity, in Providence that worked on John 00:04:28.750 --> 00:04:32.850 to get his interest and build it up. 00:04:32.850 --> 00:04:38.380 They were respon-sible, I think, for his going on that committee 00:04:38.380 --> 00:04:44.000 early on and he was very appreciative of theirsupport 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.170 all during the years. 00:04:45.170 --> 00:04:46.170 Interviewer: 00:04:46.170 --> 00:04:50.970 To follow-up on that, his background was asa bricklayer, not in health. 00:04:50.970 --> 00:04:57.140 Melvin Laird: I know he was a damn good bricklayer too because I went around on a couple 00:04:57.140 --> 00:05:01.260 ofjobs with him out in Wisconsin and he was 00:05:01.260 --> 00:05:06.730 teaching some of those guys the modern techniqueof 00:05:06.730 --> 00:05:07.760 brick laying. 00:05:07.760 --> 00:05:18.450 I remember when we were with the doctor fromthe McArdle Laboratory and John was 00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:27.440 sort of telling the guy the importance ofbrick laying as his job out in Rhode Island 00:05:27.440 --> 00:05:33.000 and Harold Ru-sch, the doctor in charge of the McArdle Cancer 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:38.380 Clinic said well, I was a brick layer as ayoung 00:05:38.380 --> 00:05:39.680 man. 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:44.570 John sort of scoffed at that and said well,what do you mean? 00:05:44.570 --> 00:05:51.980 How did you handle...on a coldwinter day out in Wisconsin, how did you set 00:05:51.980 --> 00:05:58.070 the bricks on a corner if it was real cold? 00:05:58.070 --> 00:06:03.220 He said well,the way we did that, Dr. Rusch said, was we 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:07.250 urinated on them and that made the set. 00:06:07.250 --> 00:06:11.140 John knewright away that here was a brick layer and 00:06:11.140 --> 00:06:16.070 he had a relationship with Howard Rusch andMcArdle 00:06:16.070 --> 00:06:22.080 Cancer Clinic there in Madison...that waslong remembered. 00:06:22.080 --> 00:06:25.400 Interviewer:ing, yes? 00:06:25.400 --> 00:06:28.330 I read about these three important meetingsin Wisconsin. 00:06:28.330 --> 00:06:30.060 That was the second meet- 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:31.290 Melvin Laird: Yes. 00:06:31.290 --> 00:06:35.660 That was the second...that was the secondmeeting. 00:06:35.660 --> 00:06:36.660 Interviewer: 00:06:36.660 --> 00:06:39.530 What else transpired during that second visit? 00:06:39.530 --> 00:06:47.910 Melvin Laird: Well, John questioned the wholeset up of the Marshfield Clinic, interrogated 00:06:47.910 --> 00:06:50.710 thosedoctors (like) as they had never been interrogated 00:06:50.710 --> 00:06:56.680 before, finding out about the practice ofso-called 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:02.020 clinical medicine and of one of the firstHMOs in the country. 00:07:02.020 --> 00:07:10.450 This was an HMO that was set upvery early and was set up prior to any HMOs 00:07:10.450 --> 00:07:16.000 in the country and John was interested init. 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:17.310 Interviewer: 00:07:17.310 --> 00:07:20.490 The No Match Bill was also discussed in thatmeeting wasn't it? 00:07:20.490 --> 00:07:27.120 Melvin Laird: We discussed the No Match Grantfor the University of Wisconsin and their 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:31.550 hospitaland the provisions were made for a No Match 00:07:31.550 --> 00:07:34.900 on the addition there at Madison. 00:07:34.900 --> 00:07:41.840 It was very im-portant to the University Hospital that No 00:07:41.840 --> 00:07:44.060 Match be recognized. 00:07:44.060 --> 00:07:48.840 It meant a lot to Wisconsin and alot to the University. 00:07:48.840 --> 00:07:55.910 But, the McArdle Center was one that was sponsoredby John and by me, the 00:07:55.910 --> 00:07:56.910 whole center. 00:07:56.910 --> 00:08:03.270 That center was built in the form of a cancercell as they saw it. 00:08:03.270 --> 00:08:08.140 It was a two storybuilding. 00:08:08.140 --> 00:08:13.440 Wonderful work was carried on there for chemotherapyand drug use. 00:08:13.440 --> 00:08:16.900 And some im-portant discoveries were made there that are 00:08:16.900 --> 00:08:19.410 still being used today. 00:08:19.410 --> 00:08:22.090 The center is still very active. 00:08:22.090 --> 00:08:25.170 What John and I established.. 00:08:25.170 --> 00:08:33.490 .John used to call it the Lairdettes, butwe established seven regional 00:08:33.490 --> 00:08:37.250 cancer centers in the United States. 00:08:37.250 --> 00:08:42.379 He always gave me the credit for the amendment,but it was his 00:08:42.379 --> 00:08:47.319 prodding that got me to put the amendmentinto committee. 00:08:47.319 --> 00:08:54.000 So, that's why he called it theLairdettes. 00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:00.980 Those cancer centers are Farber, [MD] Andersonin Texas, [Dana] Farber in Massachusetts, 00:09:00.980 --> 00:09:06.230 theUniversity of Wisconsin...there are very 00:09:06.230 --> 00:09:09.930 important cancer centers that were establishedunder that 00:09:09.930 --> 00:09:11.529 legislation. 00:09:11.529 --> 00:09:19.050 The most important ones nationally are probablyFarber and the Anderson Clinic down 00:09:19.050 --> 00:09:20.290 in Texas. 00:09:20.290 --> 00:09:27.569 Additional aid was presented to them and providedfor them for their work. 00:09:27.569 --> 00:09:28.680 Interviewer:Ben Lawton. 00:09:28.680 --> 00:09:29.850 Can you describe that meeting for me? 00:09:29.850 --> 00:09:35.560 There was a very famous quote that came outof the basement of the library by Dr. 00:09:35.560 --> 00:09:39.149 Melvin Laird: I think that was on our firstmeeting. 00:09:39.149 --> 00:09:46.889 Dr. Lawton at that time was a very fine surgeonand president of the clinic-one of the finest, 00:09:46.889 --> 00:09:50.709 most dedicated doctors I've ever met in mylife. 00:09:50.709 --> 00:09:56.930 Dr.Lawton felt that medicine without research 00:09:56.930 --> 00:09:59.280 was no medicine at all. 00:09:59.280 --> 00:10:06.370 And, he was a great person onpushing research and going in as far as the 00:10:06.370 --> 00:10:08.830 future of medicine was concerned. 00:10:08.830 --> 00:10:16.350 And that quote of Dr.Lawton's was always remembered by John Fogarty 00:10:16.350 --> 00:10:17.610 and by me. 00:10:17.610 --> 00:10:19.600 Interviewer:ton that night. 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:27.999 Tell us the story of your last night withMr. Fogarty and why you were in Washing- 00:10:27.999 --> 00:10:34.079 Melvin Laird: In 1967, January, Congress wasgoing to go into session. 00:10:34.079 --> 00:10:40.139 We had also planned to goto the [first] Super Bowl out in California. 00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:43.600 So we had made our plans that we would cometo the 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:51.570 start of the Congress and then go to Californiabecause Green Bay, which is in my area of 00:10:51.570 --> 00:10:54.259 Wiscon-sin, was playing in the Super Bowl. 00:10:54.259 --> 00:10:58.910 I thought it would be fun for us to be there. 00:10:58.910 --> 00:11:01.970 That night, the daybefore the session.. 00:11:01.970 --> 00:11:09.160 .John insisted on being there the day of thesession. 00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:16.329 I felt we could have gottensworn in out in California by a judge, a federal 00:11:16.329 --> 00:11:20.500 judge, which is perfectly permissible. 00:11:20.500 --> 00:11:25.649 John said no,"I want to be sworn in on the floor of the 00:11:25.649 --> 00:11:27.790 House of Representatives. 00:11:27.790 --> 00:11:31.819 We'll go to California that af-ternoon". 00:11:31.819 --> 00:11:39.740 Well, it so happens that John didn't makethat next day for being sworn in for his very 00:11:39.740 --> 00:11:43.230 im-portant [14`"] term, that he thought was important 00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:46.680 for him to be there. 00:11:46.680 --> 00:11:49.449 We had dinner that night. 00:11:49.449 --> 00:11:53.580 Iwent back to his office, left my golf clubs 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:57.150 there with the understanding that as soonas the session 00:11:57.150 --> 00:12:06.820 was over on that next day we would take offto see Green Bay play in the Super Bowl. 00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:07.820 John nevermade it. 00:12:07.820 --> 00:12:09.259 I just don't understand. 00:12:09.259 --> 00:12:13.610 We had a nice dinner that night and I wentback to the office and 00:12:13.610 --> 00:12:15.620 everything was in fine shape. 00:12:15.620 --> 00:12:21.829 But, he had a very serious heart problem thatevening. 00:12:21.829 --> 00:12:26.759 That was theend of John Fogarty and the end of a wonderful 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:29.300 relationship and a great friendship. 00:12:29.300 --> 00:12:31.670 Interviewer:the next big accomplishment? 00:12:31.670 --> 00:12:36.860 May I ask if you recall what you were discussingat dinner? 00:12:36.860 --> 00:12:38.910 What would have been 00:12:38.910 --> 00:12:42.639 Melvin Laird: Well, at that time we were discussing.. 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:51.629 .I was telling him about the changes we weregoing to make in the House Republican leadership 00:12:51.629 --> 00:12:56.680 and that we were moving Ford up to a differentposition. 00:12:56.680 --> 00:13:01.480 I would stay there as a Republican conferencechairman. 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:06.769 So, we did discuss a little repub-lican policy because he was always interested 00:13:06.769 --> 00:13:11.750 in what was going on on my side of the aisle. 00:13:11.750 --> 00:13:15.499 Hewould always tell me what Mike Kirwan from 00:13:15.499 --> 00:13:22.889 Ohio was planning or what John McCormick wasplanning at that time. 00:13:22.889 --> 00:13:28.490 John McCormick was a great friend and MikeKirwan from Ohio was a great 00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:30.970 friend of John's. 00:13:30.970 --> 00:13:36.040 I think his greatest friend, however, wasHugh Carey who became...later became 00:13:36.040 --> 00:13:40.759 governor of New York. 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:50.250 Hugh used to join John and I for a littleafter hours drink together in John's 00:13:50.250 --> 00:13:57.910 office from time to time because he was sucha good friend of John 00:13:57.910 --> 00:13:59.009 Fogarty's. 00:13:59.009 --> 00:14:05.879 He was a great member from New York, laterwent on to very important positions in 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:06.959 New York. 00:14:06.959 --> 00:14:11.670 Interviewer: So, you have taken us sort ofto the end of your partnership. 00:14:11.670 --> 00:14:15.829 I'd like to take you back,not to the very beginning, but talk a bit 00:14:15.829 --> 00:14:19.050 about your committee work and how you didit. 00:14:19.050 --> 00:14:23.459 You ran tworammed through very hefty increases in medical 00:14:23.459 --> 00:14:24.930 research spending against opposition. 00:14:24.930 --> 00:14:28.649 Can you talkabout your strategy and how you worked together 00:14:28.649 --> 00:14:29.649 to do that? 00:14:29.649 --> 00:14:37.189 Melvin Laird: Well, I came Congress the sameyear that James Shannon became director of 00:14:37.189 --> 00:14:38.519 NIH[1955]. 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:44.050 So, we both started together as rather freshman. 00:14:44.050 --> 00:14:46.519 He was Director of NIH. 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:50.889 I was a new mem-ber of the appropriations committee. 00:14:50.889 --> 00:14:55.399 John Fogarty and I got together and had avisit about this and 00:14:55.399 --> 00:15:02.630 how we should try to help Shannon in his newresponsibilities. 00:15:02.630 --> 00:15:12.160 At that time, the budget of HEW forNIH-National Institutes of Health-was a few 00:15:12.160 --> 00:15:13.990 million dollars. 00:15:13.990 --> 00:15:21.940 It wasn't a big budget at the timebecause this had been a small group that moved 00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:24.510 from New York up to Washington. 00:15:24.510 --> 00:15:29.449 And the Na-tional Institutes of Health was just beginning 00:15:29.449 --> 00:15:32.879 to blossom and become a reality. 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:38.579 Shannon had a verysmall laboratory there in New York. 00:15:38.579 --> 00:15:43.280 This was blossoming into a very big national,international 00:15:43.280 --> 00:15:51.889 laboratory as we envisioned it at that time,and as he envisioned it. 00:15:51.889 --> 00:15:54.509 During the period of time from1953 00:15:54.509 --> 00:15:56.449 until 1968.. 00:15:56.449 --> 00:16:01.179 .John died in '67. 00:16:01.179 --> 00:16:09.809 I left Congress to go to Defense in '68. 00:16:09.809 --> 00:16:12.179 Shannon retired. 00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:16.179 But, thegreater growth of the National Institutes 00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:20.490 of Health was outstanding. 00:16:20.490 --> 00:16:26.850 There has never been an institu-tion that has grown that rapidly as far as 00:16:26.850 --> 00:16:29.269 the budget was concerned. 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:43.300 We went from those few milliondollars in 1953 to $1,500,000,000 in 1968-a 00:16:43.300 --> 00:16:46.980 tremendous increase in the amount of moneymade 00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:50.140 available for medical research. 00:16:50.140 --> 00:16:52.759 I think we spent it well. 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:55.540 We created several new institutes. 00:16:55.540 --> 00:16:59.569 We en-larged the other institutes that were already 00:16:59.569 --> 00:17:01.449 in existence. 00:17:01.449 --> 00:17:09.540 I think it's a remarkable record of goodgrowth of government for a very good reason. 00:17:09.540 --> 00:17:16.709 As you know, we had to fight the administrationsduring this period because both the Eisenhower, 00:17:16.709 --> 00:17:24.060 Kennedy, and Johnson administrations wantedless money than we appropriated. 00:17:24.060 --> 00:17:27.890 They were verymuch opposed to what we were doing. 00:17:27.890 --> 00:17:32.240 But John and I would always wait till theconference com- 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.550 mittee between the House and the Senate. 00:17:35.550 --> 00:17:41.800 There is where we set the goals for all areasof NIH- 00:17:41.800 --> 00:17:52.890 CDC...everything from syphilis relief andprograms in that area all the way through. 00:17:52.890 --> 00:17:56.920 We'd take itone by one and go through and we put those 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.780 increases in there above the administration. 00:18:00.780 --> 00:18:05.750 Now, wehad to judge how far the administration would 00:18:05.750 --> 00:18:07.750 go without vetoing. 00:18:07.750 --> 00:18:13.550 There were people in the Senatethat always felt a veto was good politics 00:18:13.550 --> 00:18:18.160 because you had a big issue then on theseissues of cancer 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:23.400 and heart disease and some of the other publicissues. 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.340 John Fogarty felt it was better to get actionand so did I. 00:18:26.340 --> 00:18:33.800 So, we wanted to work a position that wouldbe signed and become law and be effec- 00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:41.200 tive in helping Jim Shannon build his greatinstitution that we had envisioned for the 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:42.220 United States. 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:43.220 Interviewer: 00:18:43.220 --> 00:18:49.300 How did you go about determining what thosenumbers would be? 00:18:49.300 --> 00:18:52.480 Melvin Laird: Well, we had some friends overin the Bureau of the Budget. 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.010 I had several goodfriends there. 00:18:55.010 --> 00:19:03.580 I also had a good friend in General [Wilton]Persons in the White House. 00:19:03.580 --> 00:19:07.550 I would al-ways kind of run things off him. 00:19:07.550 --> 00:19:11.660 I had Bryce Harlow over there as a young manworking for the 00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:12.780 General. 00:19:12.780 --> 00:19:16.220 I could always run things off them to see. 00:19:16.220 --> 00:19:19.050 They'd say, oh no, we can't go that far. 00:19:19.050 --> 00:19:20.970 Whatcan you do? 00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:26.910 I'd kind of come back with a report aboutwhere we could be and we'd stretch it just 00:19:26.910 --> 00:19:27.910 alittle bit. 00:19:27.910 --> 00:19:32.020 But, we always felt that we were in the ballgame. 00:19:32.020 --> 00:19:36.330 We weren't interested in playing politicswith this. 00:19:36.330 --> 00:19:41.120 We wanted results and we got them. 00:19:41.120 --> 00:19:42.400 Interviewer: 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.710 Mr. Fogarty kept you very busy with hearings. 00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:50.780 Melvin Laird: Oh yeah, he was a slave driveron hearings. 00:19:50.780 --> 00:19:57.490 He'd start at 8:30 in the morning andwe'd go straight through until five in the 00:19:57.490 --> 00:19:58.490 evening. 00:19:58.490 --> 00:20:01.910 I was on the Defense Appropriations Committeetoo. 00:20:01.910 --> 00:20:03.530 They would meet in the morning. 00:20:03.530 --> 00:20:08.180 I would try to get to as many of the DefenseAppropriations 00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:10.740 Committee's meetings as I could. 00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:15.180 But, I had to give priority to John becauseJohn would raise so 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:16.940 much hell with me. 00:20:16.940 --> 00:20:20.870 George Mahon was Chairman of the Defense Committee,subcommittee at the 00:20:20.870 --> 00:20:21.870 time. 00:20:21.870 --> 00:20:28.620 He was a little easier on me and would excuseme to go to HEW meetings right through until 00:20:28.620 --> 00:20:29.620 '68. 00:20:29.620 --> 00:20:30.620 Interviewer: 00:20:30.620 --> 00:20:34.730 Why was he so focused on the importance ofthese hearings? 00:20:34.730 --> 00:20:42.270 Melvin Laird: He felt that a hearing recordwas absolutely necessary in order to justify 00:20:42.270 --> 00:20:43.800 an increasein the budget. 00:20:43.800 --> 00:20:51.750 He wanted to be in a position where he hadbuilt a record that would show that the 00:20:51.750 --> 00:20:56.950 extra funds were needed, necessary, and couldbe spent properly. 00:20:56.950 --> 00:20:57.950 Interviewer:committee. 00:20:57.950 --> 00:21:01.820 Tell me again how you two had worked togetherwhen you were in conference 00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:07.670 Melvin Laird: Well, in the conference committeethe Senate has one vote and the House has 00:21:07.670 --> 00:21:09.810 onevote. 00:21:09.810 --> 00:21:18.610 By John and I staying together always, wehad a lock on the committee. 00:21:18.610 --> 00:21:21.230 The senators had dif-ferent ideas. 00:21:21.230 --> 00:21:26.010 Margaret Chase Smith would have some and otherswould have other things. 00:21:26.010 --> 00:21:29.280 We al-ways gave Margaret a little bit of hell about 00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:33.240 some of her most important problems. 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.830 But, we stayedtogether. 00:21:36.830 --> 00:21:43.770 The Senate never was entirely together becausethey were always for more, more, more 00:21:43.770 --> 00:21:51.050 without regard to whether they'd become apractical program or not. 00:21:51.050 --> 00:21:59.440 Interviewer:committee hearings like master puppeteers 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:06.710 and that sometimes you might disagree withMr. Fogarty 00:22:06.710 --> 00:22:08.650 but perhaps it was all staged.. 00:22:08.650 --> 00:22:09.650 ." 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:10.650 I've read that...this was in your biography. 00:22:10.650 --> 00:22:11.650 "The two men manipulated their sub- 00:22:11.650 --> 00:22:12.650 Melvin Laird: Well no. 00:22:12.650 --> 00:22:15.690 We'd try to show a difference of opinion inorder to bring out something 00:22:15.690 --> 00:22:18.710 from a witness. 00:22:18.710 --> 00:22:24.130 We know that they had differences of opinionand Fogarty would take one side and 00:22:24.130 --> 00:22:30.470 I would take the other and we would be ableto come down to a conclusion after the hearing 00:22:30.470 --> 00:22:32.240 was allover. 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:37.510 But there was nothing improper about that. 00:22:37.510 --> 00:22:41.120 We did that because we felt that we couldget to 00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:44.390 the truth faster that way. 00:22:44.390 --> 00:22:46.040 Interviewer:partnership? 00:22:46.040 --> 00:22:53.520 Were you at times under pressure from otherfellow Republicans for being in such a 00:22:53.520 --> 00:22:54.520 Melvin Laird: I'm sure. 00:22:54.520 --> 00:22:55.520 I know I was. 00:22:55.520 --> 00:23:02.900 I mean they criticized me for going alongon these increases. 00:23:02.900 --> 00:23:10.980 But, I was able to hold my own alright overon my side of the aisle and I never got in 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:12.310 too muchtrouble. 00:23:12.310 --> 00:23:19.720 I got a lot of kidding about it, about thepartnership. 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:26.840 Sam Rayburn first recognized it thenJohn McCormack recognized it. 00:23:26.840 --> 00:23:32.960 And, all succeeding speakers understood thatFogarty and I had a 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:38.170 partnership when it came to HEW and Labor. 00:23:38.170 --> 00:23:39.840 Interviewer:things? 00:23:39.840 --> 00:23:42.140 The record shows these tremendous accomplishments. 00:23:42.140 --> 00:23:44.290 Did you two ever disagree on 00:23:44.290 --> 00:23:46.480 Melvin Laird: Oh yes. 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.140 We disagreed sometimes. 00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:53.860 John was a little more liberal than I was,you 00:23:53.860 --> 00:23:54.900 know. 00:23:54.900 --> 00:24:01.370 You have to kind of work those things out,but we always came to an agreement. 00:24:01.370 --> 00:24:03.980 Interviewer:each other at times in your home districts, 00:24:03.980 --> 00:24:04.980 which seemed.. 00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:05.980 . 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:11.950 I understand that you two, to help maintainthis partnership, would campaign for 00:24:11.950 --> 00:24:14.040 Melvin Laird: We did. 00:24:14.040 --> 00:24:20.440 We did, I went out to his district and hewent to mine, but that was a little 00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:23.340 unusual at that time. 00:24:23.340 --> 00:24:29.040 But, it was a matter of friendship. 00:24:29.040 --> 00:24:40.840 I had various other relationships like that,but not any of them as close as with John 00:24:40.840 --> 00:24:41.840 Fogarty. 00:24:41.840 --> 00:24:50.740 But it was great that the speaker always recog-nized it and my leadership always recognized 00:24:50.740 --> 00:24:51.740 it. 00:24:51.740 --> 00:24:55.830 Gerry Ford and Charlie Halleck used to giveme 00:24:55.830 --> 00:25:00.570 the needle a little bit about it because theywould be called by the White House-"can't 00:25:00.570 --> 00:25:06.570 you dosomething with Me1 and get him to kind of 00:25:06.570 --> 00:25:10.340 cut back a little bit on this and be a littlecloser to the 00:25:10.340 --> 00:25:12.230 President's position?" 00:25:12.230 --> 00:25:21.410 It was kind of like Lyndon Johnson callingGerry Ford on a different issue 00:25:21.410 --> 00:25:23.720 that had to do with defense. 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:29.040 The tapes show that he called Gerry and said,"Gerry you've got to get 00:25:29.040 --> 00:25:35.090 down there and muzzle Me1 Laird on Vietnam." 00:25:35.090 --> 00:25:38.540 I always took that as kind of a badge of honor. 00:25:38.540 --> 00:25:50.340 Interviewer:from opposite sides of the aisles...did you 00:25:50.340 --> 00:25:54.080 at the time ever talk about how unique thisrelationship 00:25:54.080 --> 00:25:55.080 was? 00:25:55.080 --> 00:25:56.080 Just to wrap up on this topic about your uniquebipartisan relationship, you two were 00:25:56.080 --> 00:25:57.080 Melvin Laird: Oh sure we did. 00:25:57.080 --> 00:25:58.080 We talked about it. 00:25:58.080 --> 00:26:00.660 We'd have dinner together quite often. 00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:05.300 We had agroup down at Paul Young's restaurant we met 00:26:05.300 --> 00:26:06.660 quite frequently. 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:13.740 As a matter of fact, John and I hadan advisory committee made up of some very 00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:15.720 important people. 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:22.220 This was before Dave Packard be-came my deputy in defense, but he was chairman 00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:23.550 of the board at Hewlett Packard. 00:26:23.550 --> 00:26:26.220 He was on ouradvisory committee. 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:29.820 He was on the board at Stanford University. 00:26:29.820 --> 00:26:37.690 Juan Trippe, who was president ofthe board of trustees at Yale, also had created 00:26:37.690 --> 00:26:40.950 Pan Am American Airlines was on our committee. 00:26:40.950 --> 00:26:44.180 Icould go through and name these people, but 00:26:44.180 --> 00:26:48.250 they were helping us as far as their interestsand their 00:26:48.250 --> 00:26:56.330 school's interest in research in the areaof health care and research in medicine. 00:26:56.330 --> 00:26:57.910 Interviewer:on-Mary Lasker. 00:26:57.910 --> 00:27:04.570 You had support from a lot of people-somein particular maybe you could comment 00:27:04.570 --> 00:27:13.750 Melvin Laird: Well, Mary Lasker was a Wisconsiner-amefrom Wisconsin-and married an ad- 00:27:13.750 --> 00:27:18.680 vertising man out in New York and did verywell. 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.460 They became very wealthy. 00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:29.530 They set up the Al-bert and Mary Lasker Medical Research Foundation 00:27:29.530 --> 00:27:34.430 to promote medical research throughout theUnited States. 00:27:34.430 --> 00:27:41.830 This little Wisconsin girl kind of blossomedout in New York this became a very fine 00:27:41.830 --> 00:27:53.480 affair and she helped support people thatshe felt would be interested in this area. 00:27:53.480 --> 00:28:01.530 As a matter offact, she and Mrs. [Alice] Fordyce would make 00:28:01.530 --> 00:28:05.480 campaign contributions to some members ofthe 00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:06.580 Congress. 00:28:06.580 --> 00:28:14.120 I never took a campaign contribution fromeither one of them because I had a campaign 00:28:14.120 --> 00:28:22.340 manager, chairman of my campaign, Bob Froehlkewho later became Secretary of the Army, and 00:28:22.340 --> 00:28:26.830 hewouldn't accept a dollar from outside of Wisconsin. 00:28:26.830 --> 00:28:31.150 So, we never got any of that New York moneyin my campaigns. 00:28:31.150 --> 00:28:32.830 Interviewer:wondered if you could comment on Dr. Michael 00:28:32.830 --> 00:28:34.140 DeBakey and what that relationship was like? 00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:41.690 Some of your expert witnesses you'd bringinto your hearings were tied to NIH. 00:28:41.690 --> 00:28:43.260 I 00:28:43.260 --> 00:28:52.510 Melvin Laird: Well, DeBakey and [Sidney] Farberand some of those people, Howard Rusk up at 00:28:52.510 --> 00:29:01.290 the rehabilitation center in New York, theywere outstanding leaders in the field. 00:29:01.290 --> 00:29:06.730 They were alwayswilling to help us when it came time to work 00:29:06.730 --> 00:29:10.540 on support for the positions we were taking. 00:29:10.540 --> 00:29:14.710 We'd al-ways call them before the committee. 00:29:14.710 --> 00:29:19.630 We would go over their questions somewhatwith them. 00:29:19.630 --> 00:29:22.850 WithShannon, we'd go over his appearances a little 00:29:22.850 --> 00:29:28.890 bit beforehand and have kind of a little mocksession 00:29:28.890 --> 00:29:37.010 sometimes with him because we didn't wanthim to be caught unaware either. 00:29:37.010 --> 00:29:43.150 We wanted him toknow that we were doing what we could to build 00:29:43.150 --> 00:29:49.800 this international center there in Bethesda. 00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:53.530 But, wedid work closely with them. 00:29:53.530 --> 00:30:00.370 I think that Dr. Shannon said as he was leavingNIH, that he didn't 00:30:00.370 --> 00:30:04.540 know how he would have gotten along withoutthe Fogarty/Laird partnership. 00:30:04.540 --> 00:30:06.030 Interviewer:your role there? 00:30:06.030 --> 00:30:10.840 Can you tell me about the WHO [World HealthOrganization] meetings? 00:30:10.840 --> 00:30:11.840 What was 00:30:11.840 --> 00:30:19.020 Melvin Laird: Well, our role there at thatparticular time, had to do with pure water-water 00:30:19.020 --> 00:30:22.930 suppliesfor people and how important that was to health, 00:30:22.930 --> 00:30:27.960 and also to close in on the chicken pox andsmall 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:34.760 pox as well as the polio vaccine programs. 00:30:34.760 --> 00:30:39.970 We wanted a program of universal inoculationpaid for 00:30:39.970 --> 00:30:46.430 by the federal government...taking this vaccinethat had been developed and making it available 00:30:46.430 --> 00:30:49.390 throughout the United States and the world. 00:30:49.390 --> 00:30:50.390 Interviewer:cine]. 00:30:50.390 --> 00:30:55.024 Paint the picture for me of the founding ofthe library [National Library of Medi- 00:30:55.024 --> 00:30:59.290 Melvin Laird: Well, the library, the NationalLibrary of Medicine, was a project that we 00:30:59.290 --> 00:31:01.610 were veryinterested in. 00:31:01.610 --> 00:31:07.230 There were several people that were pushingus in that area. 00:31:07.230 --> 00:31:13.010 Among them wereDeBakey, Farber, and some of those great key 00:31:13.010 --> 00:31:18.870 witnesses we had for other areas of NIH. 00:31:18.870 --> 00:31:23.980 We had thesupport of the American Medical Association. 00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:28.000 We had good support on that project and wefunded 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:32.220 it in our appropriation bill. 00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:39.740 As you know, we had the ground breaking forthe Library of Medicine in 00:31:39.740 --> 00:31:42.280 1959. 00:31:42.280 --> 00:31:44.720 I was there at the groundbreaking. 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.110 As a matter of fact, if you look at the pictures,I'm the on- 00:31:48.110 --> 00:31:54.500 ly living American that's still around thatwas at that ceremony. 00:31:54.500 --> 00:31:59.700 I'm not sure how long I'm going tobe around, but it's nice to know that I was 00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:04.710 there and had an appreciation for one of thegreat things 00:32:04.710 --> 00:32:08.140 that has happened to medicine in the world. 00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:12.860 People all over the world can tune in on variousdiseas- 00:32:12.860 --> 00:32:21.480 es, on operations-how they're performed, someof the new medical equipment and machinery. 00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:27.730 Some of the new discoveries are all availablealmost the day after they are discovered. 00:32:27.730 --> 00:32:32.250 It's (That's)an amazing wealth of information not only 00:32:32.250 --> 00:32:36.480 of medical research, but how to keep peopleliving long- 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:37.710 er and better. 00:32:37.710 --> 00:32:38.710 Interviewer: 00:32:38.710 --> 00:32:44.170 Am I correct that Dr. Shannon initially didn'twant that to be part if NIH? 00:32:44.170 --> 00:32:48.920 Melvin Laird: At that time he thought thatit would take away from NIH. 00:32:48.920 --> 00:32:54.440 But, we felt it should be atNIH. 00:32:54.440 --> 00:33:02.150 He went along with it being there. 00:33:02.150 --> 00:33:08.370 It was under his authority for about threeor four years be- 00:33:08.370 --> 00:33:10.500 fore he left. 00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:12.490 He treated it well. 00:33:12.490 --> 00:33:13.780 Interviewer:brary? 00:33:13.780 --> 00:33:18.610 Did you work closely with Dr. Martin Cummingswho was the director of the li- 00:33:18.610 --> 00:33:20.980 Melvin Laird: I worked with him, yes. 00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:24.600 I have great respect for the work he has done. 00:33:24.600 --> 00:33:30.020 Well, he was agreat promoter of the library. 00:33:30.020 --> 00:33:32.400 He's done a tremendous job. 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:40.700 The success of that library is due mainlyto his perseverance and his leadership. 00:33:40.700 --> 00:33:42.020 Interviewer: 00:33:42.020 --> 00:33:47.030 You also authorized the funding of the ListerHill Center for Biomedical Research. 00:33:47.030 --> 00:33:48.590 Melvin Laird: Yes. 00:33:48.590 --> 00:33:56.220 Well, Lister Hill was a very important personas far as health care was con- 00:33:56.220 --> 00:33:57.220 cerned. 00:33:57.220 --> 00:34:00.530 His father had been a doctor, as you know. 00:34:00.530 --> 00:34:06.390 We thought that it was something very worth-while and it should be named after him, just 00:34:06.390 --> 00:34:10.919 as I thought the International Center forFogarty should 00:34:10.919 --> 00:34:13.230 be named after him. 00:34:13.230 --> 00:34:19.690 I insisted upon that from the day after Fogartypassed away. 00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:22.819 I went to the floorof the House of the Representatives. 00:34:22.819 --> 00:34:25.809 We had gone forward with the Lister Hill thing. 00:34:25.809 --> 00:34:31.990 It was abso-lutely fitting and proper that the International 00:34:31.990 --> 00:34:38.139 Medical Program at NIH bear the name of JohnFogarty. 00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:44.579 John Fogarty was always interested in theworldwide application of medical research 00:34:44.579 --> 00:34:48.349 thatcame from his association with WHO. 00:34:48.349 --> 00:34:53.899 He attended six of those meetings, of WHO,the international 00:34:53.899 --> 00:35:02.299 meetings, and he always felt that gettingtogether and having a depository for all of 00:35:02.299 --> 00:35:05.900 this informationwas very important. 00:35:05.900 --> 00:35:14.430 He felt that this was an important aspectof the growth of NIH through these 00:35:14.430 --> 00:35:21.230 programs and that the international programwas very much needed and necessary, and that 00:35:21.230 --> 00:35:24.220 theUnited States should take the lead in that 00:35:24.220 --> 00:35:25.220 area. 00:35:25.220 --> 00:35:26.220 Interviewer: 00:35:26.220 --> 00:35:30.881 Tell me the story again, the day after hedied. 00:35:30.881 --> 00:35:36.910 Melvin Laird: Well, the day after he passedaway we had a special session of the Congress 00:35:36.910 --> 00:35:40.780 in whichpeople could come together and talk about 00:35:40.780 --> 00:35:43.589 John. 00:35:43.589 --> 00:35:48.980 That is the first time that I presented theidea of the 00:35:48.980 --> 00:35:49.980 International [Center]. 00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:56.910 . . I got some of the suggestions from NIHas to what would be the fitting, 00:35:56.910 --> 00:36:00.369 proper recognition of John Fogarty. 00:36:00.369 --> 00:36:05.809 And all of them agreed in that short periodof time that this 00:36:05.809 --> 00:36:10.400 would be the best thing that we could do inthe name of John Fogarty. 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.450 So, I went forward with it. 00:36:13.450 --> 00:36:19.460 The outline of the program is almost wordfor word. 00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:24.040 The resolution was signed by President John-son [in 19681. 00:36:24.040 --> 00:36:26.589 Because that was John's dream. 00:36:26.589 --> 00:36:32.069 Interviewer: There was a recent New York Timesarticle by William Broad called "Billionaires 00:36:32.069 --> 00:36:37.210 with Big Ideas are Privatizing American Science"talking about the move away from government 00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:38.700 funding in medical research. 00:36:38.700 --> 00:36:40.930 I'd love to know your thoughts. 00:36:40.930 --> 00:36:49.980 Are the days of the United States gov-ernment being at the forefront of funding 00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:52.230 medical research coming to an end or havethey come to 00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:53.230 an end? 00:36:53.230 --> 00:36:57.950 Melvin Laird: I certainly hope they haven't...the best way to fund this medical research 00:36:57.950 --> 00:37:01.420 is throughthe government. 00:37:01.420 --> 00:37:08.329 Certainly the pharmaceutical companies, themedical profession, and all the people 00:37:08.329 --> 00:37:15.740 together should understand that the best placeto put their money is in the National Institutes 00:37:15.740 --> 00:37:19.730 ofHealth and this worldwide organization that 00:37:19.730 --> 00:37:22.789 we have built up here through the Libraryof Medicine 00:37:22.789 --> 00:37:25.609 and through those institutes out there. 00:37:25.609 --> 00:37:28.440 There's nothing like it in the world. 00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:30.700 Don't try to duplicate it. 00:37:30.700 --> 00:37:38.150 Keep that thing going and concentrate on doingyour research through that organization. 00:37:38.150 --> 00:37:43.680 Interviewer:outcomes of your partnership with John Fogarty. 00:37:43.680 --> 00:37:49.150 We can move away from NIH just for a momentand talk about some of the other 00:37:49.150 --> 00:38:02.080 Melvin Laird: Well you know, John was a greatfriend of the chairman and CEO of the Retired 00:38:02.080 --> 00:38:07.380 Teachers Association, Dr. [Ethel] Andrus. 00:38:07.380 --> 00:38:11.269 She became quite a friend of mine. 00:38:11.269 --> 00:38:17.829 She decided that theRetired Teachers Association should be broadened 00:38:17.829 --> 00:38:26.390 and should go forward with all retired people,people of the aging group, and that the best 00:38:26.390 --> 00:38:31.559 thing for her to do was to merge with anotherorganiza- 00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:38.829 tion that had just gotten started-the AmericanAssociation of Retired People. 00:38:38.829 --> 00:38:47.349 So, she came to usand wanted us to help in that merger she had 00:38:47.349 --> 00:38:48.349 proposed. 00:38:48.349 --> 00:38:54.980 So, we agreed to do everything we could topromote that merger. 00:38:54.980 --> 00:38:59.940 We were at the convention where the mergertook place. 00:38:59.940 --> 00:39:02.509 John was one key-noter and I was the other. 00:39:02.509 --> 00:39:08.509 We were the two co-keynote speakers at theSalt Lake City Convention 00:39:08.509 --> 00:39:17.609 when the Retired Teachers Association of Americajoined up with the AARP. 00:39:17.609 --> 00:39:26.880 Now, it was decided at that convention thatwe drop the retired teachers and make it AARP 00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:29.220 for allgroups. 00:39:29.220 --> 00:39:36.670 That was the right decision because this newgroup takes in all retirees. 00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:40.970 Hell, I'm 92 rightnow. 00:39:40.970 --> 00:39:45.490 Who thought that people would be living thatlong? 00:39:45.490 --> 00:39:48.200 It's going to become more and more im-portant. 00:39:48.200 --> 00:39:54.339 So, those associations have to be thoughtof carefully. 00:39:54.339 --> 00:39:58.569 They have to be responsible though. 00:39:58.569 --> 00:40:02.480 They cannot be for free lunches. 00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:05.339 You've got to pay for government services. 00:40:05.339 --> 00:40:10.829 You have to be willingto pay taxes to pay the piper. 00:40:10.829 --> 00:40:17.400 I think that sometimes they should realizethat government does cost 00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:18.400 money. 00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:24.549 You've got to be willing to pay for it, butyou want to make sure your dollar is used 00:40:24.549 --> 00:40:25.790 proper-ly. 00:40:25.790 --> 00:40:26.859 That's the important thing. 00:40:26.859 --> 00:40:29.760 Interviewer:topics you would like to talk about? 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:34.980 Rather than sort of throw out other outcomesof your partnership, ...are there other 00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:50.799 Melvin Laird: Well you know, I'd like to giveJohn credit for a lot of things. 00:40:50.799 --> 00:40:59.799 He understood my po-sition on working for the All-Volunteer Service. 00:40:59.799 --> 00:41:03.180 He never really got involved in it, but hedid un- 00:41:03.180 --> 00:41:05.869 derstand it. 00:41:05.869 --> 00:41:12.700 One of my most important accomplishments hasbeen the All-Volunteer Service. 00:41:12.700 --> 00:41:16.490 It's inits 41St year now. 00:41:16.490 --> 00:41:27.359 From 1939 until 1970 the only way we wouldfill manpower requirements was 00:41:27.359 --> 00:41:28.779 through the draft. 00:41:28.779 --> 00:41:33.750 Now, we have the volunteer service and it'sworking well. 00:41:33.750 --> 00:41:37.319 I'm so pleased withthat. 00:41:37.319 --> 00:41:48.109 Now John was interested also in a medicalschool that was developed. 00:41:48.109 --> 00:41:54.289 The author of the bill whenJohn was there was a guy by the name of Eddy 00:41:54.289 --> 00:41:57.190 Herbert [F. Edward Herbert] from Louisiana. 00:41:57.190 --> 00:42:00.980 Hehad this bill in all during the time that 00:42:00.980 --> 00:42:06.470 John and I were in this area and never gotit any place. 00:42:06.470 --> 00:42:11.839 WhenI became Secretary of Defense, the armed forces 00:42:11.839 --> 00:42:13.670 medical uniformed.. 00:42:13.670 --> 00:42:18.010 .University for Medicine wasestablished there in Bethesda. 00:42:18.010 --> 00:42:25.049 I don't know if you're familiar with it ornot, but it's a good school. 00:42:25.049 --> 00:42:27.890 Our doctors now come from there. 00:42:27.890 --> 00:42:32.920 We had to have a school because we were usingthe draft as a 00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:35.289 means of getting doctors. 00:42:35.289 --> 00:42:39.640 We gave people who went to medical schoola deferment if they agreed to 00:42:39.640 --> 00:42:41.989 serve so many years. 00:42:41.989 --> 00:42:43.630 We didn't have that anymore. 00:42:43.630 --> 00:42:46.519 So, you had to have this school. 00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:49.980 This school issomething that is working out well. 00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:57.000 It's right there in Bethesda and it's doingvery well. 00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:58.750 John wouldhave been proud of it. 00:42:58.750 --> 00:43:05.329 He was for Eddy Herbert's bill, but Eddy Herbertcould never get it moving. 00:43:05.329 --> 00:43:17.369 He got it moving in 1969 when the Air ForceAcademy was playing down in the Sugar Bowl. 00:43:17.369 --> 00:43:20.410 I wasdown there as Secretary of Defense. 00:43:20.410 --> 00:43:25.119 He cornered me and I said Eddy, I'll see thatthat's done. 00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:28.240 Oneof my projects as Secretary was to establish 00:43:28.240 --> 00:43:33.339 that school and get it through the Congress. 00:43:33.339 --> 00:43:36.460 I thinkthat's been a good thing. 00:43:36.460 --> 00:43:38.250 Interviewer: 00:43:38.250 --> 00:43:41.540 What could Congress today learn from you andJohn Fogarty? 00:43:41.540 --> 00:43:46.000 Melvin Laird: If you want to get somethingdone, work together.