tom I've read a lot in the press lately 

about the so called sex revolution.

I wonder if you comment a little bit about that,

whether you think there is such a thing or what's happening with it.

I think there is jim some people say 

we've had a sex revolution now.

It's passe,

it's gone.

I don't believe that.

I think it's here.

I think it's here to stay.

Some people will drop it because they go into 

fads and the fad is over.

But there's so many people who have been denied the privilege 

of being sexually active,

people who in this day of liberation are 

demanding that,

right?

And they're not gonna let the sexual revolution in.

It's here to stay jim 

tom I've read a lot like in 

playboy of different kinds of behaviors and things 

and they,

they seem kind of foreign to me.

And I was kind of wondering,

do many people do different behaviors or,

or most people stick to pretty much the same old 

things,

incredibly in this day.

There are still a great many people in our society who 

think the only people who vary or engage 

in any kind of variety of sexual behavior is just a few 

kinky people.

I don't think that's true.

And let me sort of give a context for my 

giving that kind of an answer.

I think our society is still caught in a 

mindset that was Given to us or 

created really over 100 years ago and a man 

named Krafft ebbing um published a 

book,

I I call it a horrendous book,

incredibly.

It was the standard textbook in human sexuality and most 

medical schools until just a few years ago.

And uh,

I think he got off to a bad start.

He entitled the book Pathological sex 

rather negative beginning.

Uh,

and then the opening chapter of that book,

he describes normal sex and 

approximately East terms.

He says,

a young man falls in love with a young 

woman.

This,

of course,

is before the day of women's liberation.

Wasn't a young man falls in love with a young or young 

man and young woman to fall in love.

The young woman is presumably waiting pine lee 

to be fall in love with.

Anyway,

he says,

the young man falls in love with a young woman due 

time they get married and then they have sex to propagate 

Children period,

that's normal sex.

Then Krafft Ebbing went on to the remainder of the book and 

rather lurid terms to describe just about every 

other kind of sexual behavior,

all under the label of perverse.

For that reason.

As an example,

just a little over three years ago,

a married husband and wife finished serving prison 

terms in the state of California for having 

engaged in oral genital sex in the privacy of 

their own bedroom.

And if that's not pointed enough,

remember it could happen in Minneapolis tonight.

I don't mean oral genital sex.

I'm sure that will,

but I mean a married couple could be put,

respectively.

And there are prisons for having engaged in it.

So things pretty much stayed the same since he 

published that book over 100 years ago until 

1937 when Indiana 

University decided to be a very progressive university 

and have a course in human sexuality.

And if you were living back then,

and I see none of you were.

But you know how progressive that was.

And for some inexplicable reason,

they chose an innocent professor of biology,

uh,

to teach the course.

And he reluctantly agreed to do so saying he 

really didn't know much about sex other than the fact you've been 

married for 18 years.

And so he went to the university library,

read what few books that were into his dismay even he 

realized there was a lot of ignorance and just 

nonsense in these books.

So being a scientist,

this man,

Alfred kinsey decided to go to the source and he began 

to interview students on campus about their personal sexual 

behavior.

And he was,

he was just amazed by the variety of sexual 

behavior revealed in these interviews,

contradicting the impression that Krafft Ebbing had 

created 100 years ago.

And and and kinsey became so intrigued by what he 

discovered that he went full time into sex.

I mean professionally.

And and he gave up biology and founded the Institute for 

Sex Research.

And uh Before his death,

he did over 18 interviews from coast to 

coast And published his monumental 

book on the behaviour of the sexual behavior of the 

Human Male in 1948.

And I vividly remember when the book came out,

hundreds of thousands of copies sold,

of course,

is one of the first books to ever be published by 

reputable publisher in our country with the word sex 

in the title.

Of course,

most people got home with the book and locked the door and 

pulled the blinds and to their dismay found that far from 

being pornographic or even erotic.

It was very dull sociological reporting,

but very significant because it did report this 

variety of sexual behavior.

And the book was 

denounced by many people.

I remember going to a large 

convention or conference of ministers and heard an 

hour lecture by a man who said everyone knew kinsey's 

book wasn't true that american people didn't do those kinds of 

variations of sexual behavior.

Incidentally,

I got to know that man personally about eight years 

later and found that kinsey was right on target about 

him.

Uh,

I think he made an honest mistake.

Had anyone confronted him with that,

he would have admitted that he just couldn't believe very many other 

people engaged in these variations of 

sexual behavior.

And what I'm saying to you is I I just think it's true.

Certainly been my own experience.

And we incidentally this,

I think will interest you.

We show films of most of these varieties of sexual 

behavior.

When we do our our SARS,

our seminars on human sexuality at the 

medical school.

We might talk about some of the varieties and 

interesting,

I have to regretfully say we don't have any films of 

necrophilia.

Um,

I suppose until someone with an L.

E.

A mercenary spirit makes provision in there will 

for the use of their corpse.

We won't have any,

we don't have any data on that either.

We don't know how much of that is engaged in 

one of our special stars.

A couple years ago,

our director asked if anyone in the group had ever engaged in 

necrophilia and one man held up his hand and said,

well,

I'm not sure.

I suppose a lot of us have been in that predicament,

but of course it's hardly cricket,

you know,

in the middle of a sexual encounter to reach over and feel 

your partner's pulse.

Anyway,

um,

another variety of sexual behaviors.

Best reality.

A lot of intriguing things about best reality.

One to me,

at any rate,

is how it's spelled B E S T instead of B E A S 

T.

Another intriguing thing is how the Minnesota law 

reads making it a felony and it is a felony.

And 41 out of the 50 states.

The Minnesota says that it is unlawful for a 

person to engage in sex with an animal 

or a bird,

which sort of challenges my fantasy 

life.

I guess what really disturbs me about it is it certainly 

leaves the fish of Minnesota unprotected 

anyway.

Um,

another variety of sexual behaviors.

Exhibitionism,

the largest number of sex offense arrests in our society 

of her exhibitionism.

If it's a female,

it's almost always in a commercial context,

a go go dancer strip teaser,

if it's a male,

it's almost never in a commercial context.

You know,

flash or whatever interesting 

example,

by the way of how we perpetrate a sexual myth occurred on 

our campus several years ago,

when our,

one of our papers had a rather good 

article on exhibitionist until the last paragraph in which 

they quoted a learned professor as 

saying that a certain percentage of exhibitionists were 

potentially dangerous period.

You know,

presumably a certain percentage of us are potentially 

dangerous.

As a matter of fact,

one of the few things we know about exhibitionist is they tend to be 

more passive than average.

I've worked with six male exhibitionist in the 

last year and a half and five were definitely 

more passive than the average male,

something like an exhibitionist in that respect.

Virus also tend to be more passive.

And with both cases it makes sense because they're relying on 

visual stimulation or contact instead 

of tactical.

This isn't to say all voyeuristic are all 

exhibitionists are are 

passive.

I interviewed a man several years ago serving a term for rape 

and his first sex offense arrest was for 

being a peeping tom or or a 

voyeurism.

Um,

I think another variety of sexual behavior is 

transvestism,

transvestite about which I still 

find current in our country a great deal of misunderstanding 

many people using the word transvestite in the word 

homosexual almost interchangeably.

I would define a transvestite as a person who is 

erotically aroused by wearing some or 

all of the clothing of the opposite sex.

It's usually some probably almost 

exclusively transvestites are males,

contrary to the misunderstanding.

The vast majority are heterosexual,

not homosexual.

It's usually a heterosexual man who who gets 

turned on by wearing a bra,

panties and negligee,

whatever.

And no particular problem with.

I think if they have an understanding partner who is grateful to 

have him at least turned down by something,

I I did have a man a couple years ago who had a problem.

There was nothing erotic about wearing his wife's 

underclothing.

It had to be stolen or there was no uh,

arousal in it.

So of course he had a problem with the police.

Uh,

I think by far the most enormous 

psychological emotional problems,

however experienced by transsexuals,

there's a person born into the body of one sex,

but feel they have the psyche or the emotions 

of the opposite sex.

You know,

when when you realize how heavily rigidly 

programmed we are in the 

difference between the masculine feminine roles,

imagine what it would be like to have a male body male 

genitalia and you just not feel 

comfortable unless you were dressed as a woman and 

engaging for the most part in female 

roles.

So the emotional problems that the transsexual 

are enormous And about five or 

6 - one transsexuals are males.

However,

I suppose that variety of sexual behavior that 

generates the most anxiety,

I suppose because of that the most anger in our society instead of 

same sex or homosexual behavior.

I would define a homosexual as a person who 

is primarily aroused by and 

fulfilled by the same sex,

and I underscore the word primarily because 

I don't think there are many exclusive homosexuals,

and I don't think there are many exclusive heterosexuals.

For that matter,

nature doesn't make too many extremes.

Um,

No one knows how many homosexuals or gay people there 

are in our society,

Kinsey estimated 4-6 of 

males were primarily Homosexual and 

2-3 of the females,

everyone I know today in sex research,

including the people who now run the kinsey institute 

feel this is one place where kinsey erred rather 

grievously,

and it's probably more like 8 to 10% 

with the male female percentages being about the same.

Um,

all we can do is guess,

you know,

no one's devised a way of going up and down the neighborhood 

streets of our city ringing doorbells and saying,

I'm taking a census.

Would you tell me how many gay people live in this house?

But if we're anywhere near right in our guests,

we're talking about the second largest minority group in 

our society and the only minority group,

which it is still legal in most parts of our country 

to to discriminate against in 

uh employment housing.

The apartment house I lived in my 1st 3 years 

in Minneapolis,

still will not rent a one bedroom apartment,

22 males or two females unless 

they're related,

department blood relatives.

We discriminated against the membership in clubs,

lodges,

churches,

credit rating,

sometimes and so forth.

You know,

I like to put this whole variety of sexual 

behavior we're talking about.

I like to put it in the context of one of my favorite 

aspects of nature's creativity,

which are snowflakes.

I don't know how you view snowflakes when they're stacked two or 

three ft deep,

but I would suggest to you that individually snowflakes are 

incredibly beautiful if you've ever seen a 

picture of one under a microscope,

just a beautiful thing.

And I was intrigued to read an article a couple of years ago by 

two meteorologists who speculated that 

no two snowflakes in history have ever been 

identical.

You know,

that sort of boggles my mind.

And I guess further amazed me when they 

speculated that the total snowfall in the history of the 

world Would equal about 50 times the 

mass of the Earth.

You know,

give or take a few.

That's that's a lot of snowflakes and no two 

identical.

It seems to me it shouts loud and clear 

that nature indeed believes that 

variety is the spice of life,

but see our society operates under exactly the 

opposite premise.

Our society is constantly seeking to course 

conformity and nowhere more 

so than the sexual behavior.

And even to this day when people don't conform 

to craft endings,

narrow description of normal sexual 

behavior.

Our society has its ways of punishing them 

sometimes subtly,

often cruelly.

And I think there by our society does enormous 

damage really destruction to people's 

potential and their productivity and their creativity,

when when we compel a person to go through a lifetime 

behaving sexually realizing what an immense 

part of our total being our sexuality is 

to go through a lifetime behaving sexually in a way they 

are not comfortable with.

I think we just destroy the person.

And you know what I'd like to say to you,

especially in answer to that question is,

I think our society be way ahead if we just free 

people to behave sexually in a way they're 

comfortable with,

as long as they're not infringing on anyone else's 

rights are exploiting rather homely way of 

putting that.

Someone is supposed to have asked 

Pat Campbell,

the friend of George Bernard shaw,

what she thought about the growing sexual permissiveness of her 

day and she said let the people do what they 

want as long as they don't do it in the streets 

and scare the horses.

And that's really the way I feel about let's let people be 

themselves.

And if I don't like,

you know if I'm uncomfortable sitting in my living room thinking about 

what Mr mrs smith are doing in their bedroom next door,

I think that's my problem.

I don't think I thereby have a right to coerce Mr 

and mrs smith to change their sexual behavior so that I 

can feel good about it as I sit in front of my 

television set and I read my book or whatever 

in the living room.

You know,

another way of making this a little more graphic for you.

And uh,

to do a little live research,

sex research with you Kinsey for the sake of all 

those 18,000 interviews.

He did put everyone on a sexual 

continuum or scale from 0 to 

6 with a zero representing an exclusive 

heterosexual behavior,

opposite sex,

they're attracted to the opposite sex.

A six representing an exclusive 

homosexual behavior.

And if you can imagine that scale on the wall behind 

me,

with zero over here and and the six over 

here,

put yourself on that scale in two 

respects.

1st,

ask your sexual behavior 

if you don't get drunk very often,

that shouldn't be too difficult.

Right?

Remember which sex you've been in bed with more often,

but more significant.

Put yourself on that scale as to your sexual 

fantasies,

your masturbatory fantasies.

And I would suggest to you the greater disparity between those two 

marks,

the unhappier person you are.

Give an example.

I had a,

hey,

let's say,

a high school teacher.

It was a professional person who came in several years 

ago.

He said,

I'm so disturbed or upset about my sexuality,

I'm just not functioning in my profession.

I asked him,

put himself on the scale of those two respects as to sexual 

behavior.

He said,

zero,

the only person he had ever had sex with was his wife.

Heterosexual.

His masturbatory fantasies since puberty 

way over here,

5.5,

you can imagine why he wasn't functioning his profession.

I'm sure it wasn't even functioning as a person.

And so I'm saying when we course that kind of a thing to happen,

we're creating tragedy and we should free people to 

behave sexually in the way they're comfortable with.

Um,

so really,

essentially what I'm saying to you is what we're talking about a 

homosexual.

We're not talking a gay person,

we're not talking about somebody who is a different kind of being.

You know,

we're really talking about somebody who's different degrees.

And my point is,

we're all different degrees.

No.

Two of us in this room,

like fingerprints or snowflakes would have 

exactly the same sexual orientation on that 

scale of 0-6.

Of course,

a you people are medical people are medically 

oriented and,

and,

and,

uh,

I'm sure chief for prime question in your mind is 

what causes homosexuality.

Yeah,

I have to say.

Emphatically,

no one knows what causes it.

We have different hypotheses.

There's the sickness theory that male 

homosexuals is made,

and we never worry about lesbians,

but is caused by the fact that he has a mother who has 

been overly dominant in his life and uh,

either consciously or unconsciously,

she is seductive of her son and the fathers of 

failures of father figure in the sun's eyes.

I've over simplified it,

but that's the so called sickness theory and having 

worked with thousands of families over the last 32 or 

three years,

I have to say if that's what causes homosexuality,

it ought to be not 87 or 8 to 10% 

It ought to be around 80%.

You know,

that just describes an inordinate number of American 

families.

I'd like to share my own hypothesis.

I think we're all born with an appetite for food and an 

appetite for sex.

And I think there are two basic factors that determine what 

foods we like and dislike,

what sex we like and dislike.

And those two factors are first of all,

our biological predisposition,

you know,

the whole inherited genetic factor,

the body chemistry we have at birth because I think we're all 

like sort of a piece of modeling clay at birth only were 

different consistency,

then what the early learning experience 

does to that potential 

and nobody knows emphatically again,

what those early learning experiences,

maybe that tend to push a person toward being gay or being 

straight or being by or whatever.

Incidentally,

wainwright Churchill,

who I who I think has written one of the few good books on 

homosexuality,

says in his estimation,

if there were any such thing as a norm,

it would be bisexuality.

But because of the sexually oppressive nature of our society,

most people find it easier to polarizing either 

straight or gay lifestyle.

Well,

you know,

to give an example of my hypothesis this these two 

factors,

for instance,

if I had had exactly the same parents,

the same early learning experience,

everything.

Say that Schakowsky had or 

Beethoven or Mozart,

I assure you,

you'd never hear of tom our as a musician.

Just no musical potential in me at birth 

to my regret,

no learning experience could have made me 

learn how to play the piano.

Ah,

though I desperately tried on two occasions,

just a flop or to put it in a sexual 

context.

My next older brother on,

on this scale you have back here,

well,

he'd be over here to the left somewhere,

you know,

really a double zero.

He's just incredibly straight.

I can't imagine any learning early learning experience,

set up parents or anything that would have made him anything more than maybe 

just plane zero.

I guess it's pretty obvious that from what I'm saying,

I therefore don't believe in trying to change 

homosexuals.

Not too many years ago we did front of the bottom ease that didn't 

seem to help much and then shock treatment.

I guess the fad today's behavior modification which I 

think has some values and certain kinds of personality 

disorders.

But I hope it's pretty evident to you that the only 

behavior and I'm interested in modifying his 

societies again to uh to get 

our society to let people be themselves to 

behave section the way they're comfortable.

You know,

I had a man a few months ago,

he said tom I don't mind gay people having 

their rights,

but he said why do they have to flaunt being gay?

And I sort of intrigued me and I probe to find out what 

he's referring to and it turned out what he meant by flaunting.

He was talking about gay liberation.

Well I think gay liberation is about the same 

issues as women's liberation.

Black liberation american indian liberation.

These are all people who have been kept second class 

citizens in our society who in this day 

of liberation,

as I said to you earlier,

jim an answer to your question.

They are demanding now the right to be first class 

citizens.

That's going to be their choice whether they're sexually active or 

not.

Again,

as long as they're not exploiting other people.

I think gay people and gay liberation 

like any other members of just 

discriminated against minority group.

Number one thing is the pocketbook they want to be 

employed and promoted on the basis of 

their competence to do a job,

not on the basis of what they do in bed sort of 

makes a lot of sense to me the second thing and this 

applies a little more to the male gay than the female.

They would like the end of police harassment,

enticement,

entrapment and brutality,

incredible story of most american cities.

You know,

I think probably the most damnable thing we do to gay people is to 

compel them to wait until they're drinking age before they can have their 

first date.

How's the 17 year old gay boy or girl going to get a date in 

high school classroom or the church,

youth group of the Y Swimming Club.

So they have to wait until they can go to a gay bar.

I think the bars that sort of a lousy place to get a date whether you're gay 

or straight.

And so in our state that means they have to be 18 

California,

they have to be 21 that's pretty late to be getting your 

first date.

So what I'm saying is that the police departments in most american 

cities have an inordinate proclivity to harass and 

raid uh,

these kinds of gay establishments and they would like the 

end of that kind of treatment.

The worst cities of Chicago,

los Angeles and Miami least amount of it goes 

on in twin cities for 

some reason,

unknown to me at any rate,

almost to the point of zero,

not quite.

The third thing,

of course is the change of state laws so that no longer be a 

felony to engage in same sex 

behavior.

But you know,

the fourth and last,

by far the most important thing to you people,

gay people would like to be accepted.

Uh I know you're all interested in mental health.

I presume you would agree with me that 9/10 of being 

mentally healthy is to have a good self image 

to either be able to say I'm okay,

you're okay.

Or even to say I'm OK,

you're a jerk.

But you see most gay people reverse it.

They say I'm a jerk,

you're okay Because 

just coming through their formative teenage years,

imagine how an 18 year old gay boy or girl feels with the 

church usually telling them they're hopeless centers because they're 

gay.

Their doctors more often than not,

still telling them they're sick and the state law 

saying you're a common criminal,

their self image is about as low as it can be,

but that they would just like to be accepted as persons again,

as long as they're not infringing on somebody else's,

right.

I had a personal example of that about,

well,

several years ago I was caught in a a 

blizzard in Baltimore late in the afternoon.

They say said if we'd wait a couple hours,

they hope to get a runway plowed.

So being that time of the day,

I went into the airport barred to get myself 

plowed or whatever.

Anyway,

no,

to enjoy a social drink,

okay?

And there was this distinguished gentleman sitting next to me 

and he started telling me what he did for your living in.

Incidentally,

I've gotten a place where rather dread those proverbial moments when a 

stranger sitting next to you on the airplane starts to say what they 

do and you know,

in a few minutes they're gonna stop and say,

uh by the way,

what do you do?

And he did.

So I decided to risk it.

And I said,

well,

I lecture and council on human sexuality,

particularly homosexuality.

He said,

oh God,

keep me away from those queers.

And I think it's one of the finer moments in my life.

I looked him up and down from head to toe.

And finally I said,

uh,

well,

I'm gonna stay right here and finish my drink.

If you want to move to the other end of the bar,

please feel free to do.

So.

He did the classical double take and 

and I give him credit.

He ended up buying me a second drink,

which he needed more than I did.

But my point is,

you know,

what does my sexual orientation have to do 

uh with enjoying a social 

drink in a public bar with a stranger.

You know,

I know it's easier to accept people if we can approve of the way 

they live,

but I just want to gently say that even though we don't 

approve,

I think,

you know,

we can't accept them.

And I guess it's easier to accept people if we understand them,

but we still don't have to understand.

I was having thanksgiving dinner with my 

double zero brother a couple years ago,

he said tom I respect you as much as anyone I know.

But he said,

I just can't imagine two guys going to bed together.

I said spend,

look,

this society has brainwashed me for over 50 

years that a guy and a girl going to bed together.

I still can't imagine.

But I accept it.

And you know,

most of us say we can't fantasy about our parents having sex.

Well,

I can't Fantasy never have been able to fantasy about any 

man and woman having sex.

Unfortunately,

I guess I'm a double zero over here.

But the point is I accept I have officiated over 1000 

weddings as a minister.

I wouldn't do that if I didn't accept what's 

going on.

I just don't understand it.

Um maybe I ought to say just a couple of words about some of the 

more prominent myths about gay 

people.

I presume you're aware of this an inordinate number of 

them.

I suppose the most prominent myth is that you can tell a 

gay person and honestly,

if if any of you know how to tell a gay person,

please share the secret with me.

You know,

it saved me a lot of wasted effort.

Whatever.

I mean,

you know,

we can all tell the limp wrist nelly faggot who goes 

swishing screaming down the sidewalk,

yelling mary or the,

or the bull dyke and high hip boots,

uh,

driving a snowplow down the block or whatever.

But that's a very small minority.

And even then you can be wrong.

You know,

the most effeminate man on the campus where I went to 

college was very heterosexual 

man.

I only know three pro football players who are 

gay,

one of my city and two others,

but I assure you can't tell they're gay by the way they 

block and tackle.

I guess another myth is that homosexuals are all pdf 

files,

they molest Children.

We actually have hardcore police statistics 

compiled nationally by the FBI,

which guest doesn't mean much anymore.

Um,

That for some unknown reason,

a disproportionately small percentage of 

adults arrested for molesting Children are 

gay,

less than 5%.

Another myth is a gay people are inordinately creative 

and artistic.

I wish that were true.

You know,

I was part of the Kinsey study of homosexuality in San 

Francisco several years ago and got to know three or 

4000 homosexuals and I can assure you 

an awful lot of us are just playing Claude's.

I think what happens is I'm sure there's a disproportionately 

high percentage of gay people in the arts.

But I think the reason is,

especially with the males That you 

say you have a 17 year old boy wants to be a ballet 

dancer.

He might as well go ahead and do it.

He can't disappoint his family anymore,

and he already is by being gay.

But if you have a 17 year old straight boy who wants to 

be a ballet dancer,

his parents are gonna say,

for God's sake,

son,

you're supposed to play football,

not ballet or whatever it is you do with ballet.

Uh,

So,

you know,

really unfortunate.

Neither Dwight Eisenhower or Winston 

Churchill ever had a paintbrush in their hands until there 

were over 50 and yet they both proved to have exceptional 

artistic ability.

But when church are,

when Eisenhower is young,

you know,

he had to play football and Churchill had to play 

rugby or whatever it is they do over there.

Another myth is that gay people hate 

the opposite sex.

I know a few who do for the most part,

gay people get along better with the opposite sex.

However,

because they're not playing sexual games 

and so I could go on and on 

about more and more myths,

but we have a few minutes left and I think I've 

done all the talking here.

I'm sure you have some questions or comments you'd like to 

make,

Let me say,

you can stump me easily,

uh,

but you can't embarrass me.

So any personal question or whatever you,

any of you may want to ask,

please feel free to or any rebuttal or 

reputation ask a question you 

mentioned earlier about the heavy 

conditioning of specific roles that we all go 

through and we sort of get polarized.

We have to be something very clear.

It seems to me that you would have gone through a 

period of quite a bit of confusion about 

your own orientation.

Maybe you could tell me when you were sure what 

that was for you?

When was I sure that I was gay?

Right.

Well,

you have to put it in perspective.

Richard,

you know,

I come from a generation about three 

generations back or whatever.

You know,

when I went through adolescence,

okay,

I knew what turned me on sexually when I 

was 10.5,

I guess the first time I masturbated and 

it's never been a different.

I've tried to fantasy about females or women and 

just just doesn't wash.

Of course,

you have to realize this is what I was leading up to.

I I didn't know there was another homosexual in the world 

until I was in history until I was 17.

And to think you're one of a kind is sort of like going to hell in 

a handbasket.

I never met another gay person that I knew 

was gay and he knew I was telling 26.

fortunately that kind of thing wouldn't happen today.

But yeah,

most gay people I know and I'm no exception,

desperately trying to relate heterosexual guy 

I dated.

I tried to smooth,

tried to neck and I used to enjoy 

dating because I took out girls I liked for 

companions.

And the only bad part is when you had to kiss him goodnight at the 

door.

I guess today you wouldn't get away with that little.

So,

uh,

you know,

tim,

I knew what turned me on.

It's never been different.

Yeah.

Any other questions.

I had a question.

I was just wondering what you thought about 

the new standard american 

psychiatric association on this 

specific the issue of 

homosexuality and variant sexual behavior.

The american psychiatric association changed their 

stand two years ago,

this coming december.

Actually,

their board did.

And there was such a human cry that they had to have a national 

referendum,

their whole membership and they sustained 

and supported the action of the board.

I think there's quite a bit of confusion about that.

What they did was to remove homosexuality from 

the category of mental disturbance.

They went on to say that it may and the 

word May is very important.

It may be a sexual orientation 

disturbance.

Just may not is.

So that was really a great step for them to take that 

because our society still takes the 

I think the word of psychiatrist is very 

important.

This sexual things,

incidentally,

Michael,

you might be interested to know.

I sent them a telegram and 

congratulated them on their courage to take this 

step and asked them if it was retroactive.

They 

didn't respond.

Thanks.

Yeah.

Tom I have a question is sort of a double 

question.

Uh,

since your minister.

Uh,

the first part of my question is,

uh,

what made you decide since you knew that you were 

gay at such an early age?

What made you decide to go into the ministry?

Considering the whole religious aspect on 

homosexuality?

And then the other party is that when you're bored,

found out that you were gay,

how did they deal with this?

Well,

as to the first part of your question,

I have to confess a disturbing amount of 

naivety on my part.

Uh,

I don't think I was really,

I knew the church was against homosexuality.

I know,

so I knew so little about the Bible when I decided to 

go into seminary 35 years ago that I wasn't 

aware of,

that it had such outright stern 

condemnation of homosexual behavior 

well.

But I went into the ministry because 

I I'm sure there's a lot of reasons.

Let me just point out part of it at age 19.

I knew I was inextricably gay,

neither hell or high water was going to make me anything 

else.

Also knew I was inextricably of religious 

being.

And so I had to bring those two things two 

terms.

And that made me question everything the church ever said 

about anything,

which I think is the best thing that ever happened to me.

I wish it happened to everybody.

They come out with some decent religious convictions in my 

estimation.

And the more I did that,

the more intrigued I became about the actual possibilities 

of religion and what the church could do with it.

And that's what led me into the ministry.

Your second part of your question betrays the naivety on 

your part.

Believe me,

my board didn't know I was gay.

You know what it means,

assumption?

Yeah.

You know,

it means to live in the closet.

Um,

I have an idea.

Yeah.

That means,

you know,

you're gay and maybe a few close gay friends or maybe even 

one or two straight friends,

but the whole world,

the rest of the world doesn't know it.

I lived a complete double life 

and it's rather than intriguing thing I could talk 

about it.

It becomes a second nature.

You know,

you lie just with it.

Look just the way you raise an eyebrow like you're sitting around the 

fireplace,

christmas eve with your family and your one of your 

brothers,

your hair's down.

You've let all the innovations down you're really 

sharing on a warm and all of a sudden,

one of your brothers talks about the fucking faggot at the office.

Okay.

And you gotta laugh.

Yeah.

And so it's a rather intriguing thing.

But no,

I didn't come out of the closet until why was with 

the Institute for Sex Research the year after I left my last 

perish and then decided I was 

giving the rest of my life to trying to 

create a different climate about human sexuality.

You know,

I'm interested not just in the liberation of 

homosexuality or gay people.

I'm interested in the liberation of all human 

sexuality because I think it's all part and 

parcel and deeply committed to it.

Okay.

Probably have time for another question or two.

Yeah,

I have a question.

I've heard so much about one night stands and gay 

bars and things like that.

I'm wondering if gay relationships really are as 

temporary as they're always made out to be.

Well diane a lot of things I can say about that 

I've done marital counseling for 

32 or three years,

it's the only kind of constantly,

I don't enjoy doing so 

frustrated.

But you know,

the one thing I have to say,

first of all,

we've got to find some answers for straight relationships.

They're in trouble,

they're not lasting all that much longer than gay 

relationships and you know,

they have all the societal pressures going for them 

to keep them together,

Children,

the pressure of the employers who don't like their 

employees,

that has to be divorced the whole 

family,

the society,

everything and they're not doing too well.

Gay relationships have all the societal pressures 

going against their being together for two 

adults over 30 to live together,

particularly male is really,

you know,

almost have to live in a gay ghetto to bring it off.

And you know,

as an example,

we did the kinsey study.

Um,

one of the men we interviewed was vice president.

One of the largest corporations in SAn Francisco.

His lover was an office worker in that same 

corporation.

Imagine all the games they had to play.

You can dine well believe that corporations,

personnel records didn't list the same home address 

and phone number,

the annual christmas party for the office staff.

They had to take female dates.

They were smart enough to double date.

But yeah,

so you know,

that makes it difficult to hold a relationship together.

And one final thing I say about that 

Diana,

the uh,

the more permissive our society becomes towards gay 

people,

the longer their relationships are lasting 

lesbian relationships have always lasted much 

longer than the male ones,

but the male ones are beginning to last much longer now too,

as our society becomes more accepting now,

why is that the lesbian relationships would be 

lasting longer?

I have an idea,

but I'm just wondering I have only one 

thought of why lesbian relationships last longer.

Whether it's a cultural brainwashed or not.

We don't know.

But I think that women are 

just less predatory than males in our society 

And therefore they tend to stay together.

If you went down to the Radisson tonight and found there was a business 

convention with 50 women and 50 men,

they're from out of town at midnight tonight,

you would find very few of those men in their room.

Most of the women would either be in their rooms are the 

most downstairs in a bar.

So males get out in 

the value a lot more than 

females.

And therefore,

I think the lesbian relationships have tended I think that's 

changing by the way,

because females are feeling freer to go out at 

night alone and certain