1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 30^ 
1581 
The Chairman. Your point is that the clerk should be here/* 
to verify them ? 
Mr. Brown. I have had no opportunity to inspect the books. 
I never knew of their existence. 
The Chairman. Look at them. 
Mr. Brown. And I don’t know that looking at them five 
minutes would enable me to say whether they ought to be ad- 
mitted. 1 am willing to go as far as anybody can ask me to 
accommodate His Excellency. 
Gov. Butler. T don’t want any7 accommodation from you, 
sir. 
Mr. Brown. I shall always give it, whether you want it or 
not. 
Gov. Butler. I will explain. [Reading from one of the 
8 books.] “ Children and foundlings. No. 43G : John Oping ; 
sex, male ; color, white ; color of eyes, blue ; color of hair, light; 
distinguishing marks, none ; where found, St. Margaret’s Home, 
Bowdoin Street; when found and apparent age, May 4, 1881, 
8 p.m., 3 weeks ; by whom found, Sister Jessie ; when brought to 
home, May 4, 1881, at 9.20 p.m. ; by whom, Sister Jessie and 
Sister Elizabeth ; physical condition good ; date of death, phy- 
sician attending, cause of death, place of burial, time, ” all blank ; 
‘‘other disposition, Massachusetts Infant Asylum, May 7, 
1881 ; remarks,” blank. Now there is a page of this book about 
the condition of this foundling, and it is fair to say it is very 
carefully made. 
The Chairman. That is a sort of descriptive list of each 
one. 
Gov. Butler. I take it to be a register. 
The Chairman. This covers the entire time? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir, covering different years. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I have looked at this book, and I want 
to make a single remark. It strikes me we are only chargeable 
for the condition of this child when it gets to the institution, 
and while it is there. I don’t know anything about who made 
this record, and I think it would be important for the committee to 
know. This is the record, perhaps, of the same child while it 
was at another institution. For instance, I turn to page 238 of 
this volume, simply for the purpose of illustration. Here is a 
child: “Sophia Carter, female, white, hazel eyes; hair, dark- 
brown ; distinguishing marks, cross-eyed, &c. Found in a 
passage between Springfield Street and Chester Square ; found 1582 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
on the 17th of June, 1876 ; it was about two weeks old ; Officer 
Cunningham, station 5,10 p. m. ; physical condition doubtful.” 
Now, who made that diagnosis, or who examined that child and 
was able to say that its physical condition was doubtful? 
The Chairman. I don’t know, now, that the governor asks to 
put this book in for any other purpose, except to show the 
number that went from there to Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. 1 propose to show,—to put in and then 
identify from the other register, — to show this : This Chardon 
Street Home is where all the derelict children of Boston are 
carried. Anybody that has a child that they don’t know what 
to do with properly, they carry it to the Chardon Street Home. 
Then, the rule, at the time we are speaking of, was that if no 
known settlement could be found for the child, and, of course, 
veiy few could be found, that child was sent immediately, under 
the care of one of the State officers, to Tewksbury, and there 
received and there died. Now, I am prepared to take the child 
from the Chardon Street Home by the records, —and there was 
only an hour and a half, at the outside, difference between their 
leaving the Chardon Street Home and their arriving at Tewks- 
bury,— I am prepared to take the child here byr this record, 
much better than anybody’s recollection, deliver him on the 
register at Tewksbury, find when he died, or survived, — I 
sha’n’t be very much troubled with the latter part of the record. 
The Chairman. I think, Governor— 
Gov. Butler. Now, isn’t this more satisfactory than any- 
tliiug else could be ? The record here is very perfect; and I 
hope we shall have some such record kept at Tewksbury, some 
time or other, when somebody can get hold of the institution 
who will carry it on as it ought to be, —here is an exact record 
kept for the purposes of that institution. 
The Chairman. Shouldn’t we know, Governor, now, who 
made that record of diseases, whether it was a lady clerk or a 
physician in the Chardon Street Home? 
Gov. Butler. I doubt whether anybody7 could tell that nine 
years ago, or eight years ago. 
The Chairman. It seems to me the books are admissible for 
some purposes, but we ought to know the exact facts about the 
make-up of the books. 
Gov. Butler. It would not be a lady clerk who would do it 
upon her own judgment. A lady clerk would make the entry, 
but if would be upon the direction of some responsible party. 1883.j 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1583 
The Chairman. I think we ought to know that, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. How? 
The Chairman. I think we should know that. I have no 
doubt it is so, but as a matter of evidence — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me, it goes to the weight. Omnia 
rite acta — 
The Chairman. Prcesumuntur. 
Gov. Butler. Prcesumuntur, — among public officials all 
tilings are supposed to be properly done. Very good ; and, 
therefore, we have to take, prima facie, a great many things upon 
trust. Now, when we find a record very carefully kept, and 
then on one page “good,” on another page “good,” on another 
page “fair,” on another page “good,” on another page 
“ fair,”— 
Mr. Brown. I should say you were putting in the record. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; 1 am not saying now as to where 
these went, sir, — they went to different places, — and, then, on 
another page “feeble,” why, it is of the highest validity, it 
seems to me. It would be more convincing to me than the 
swearing of any interested doctor on earth about them ; because, 
it was made at the time, in the course of business, for the infor- 
mation of those who must deal with that child, and because it is 
not to be presumed, and I hope cannot be true, that the 
Chardon Street Home people would either make a false record 
when they had no occasion for it, or that they would send a 
person from their home, a child in articulo mortis, to die at the 
other end of the road, and the State to that charge, the charge 
of an officer and attendant and the child. So, I think it is 
competent for all purposes, and I submit it to the committee. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, this record, I suppose, is offered 
for a purpose. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. It is offered because in the judgment of His 
Excellency it is worth something to prove some fact; nothing 
else. It is not offered here as a mere matter of boy’s play, I 
know. Now, I think I know what the purpose is. It never oc- 
curred to His Excellency, probably, when he was putting in his 
case, that the record of the Chardon Street Home, put in and 
interpreted as it stood, would charge the institution at Tewks- 
bury with the responsibility of receiving certain well infants 
which afterwards died. That seems not to have occurred to him. 
That was open and was a part of his case. 1584 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no. 
Mr. Brown. Certainly it was. It was your duty not only 
to make the charge, but to follow it up with the evidence fur- 
nished by the records of this home ; that here were children 
who were marked well upon this record who went to Tewksbury 
and died within a short time. Now, that was perfectly legiti- 
mate and perfectly proper, and we should have been glad to 
have met it, and we are glad to meet it now. But let us see 
where we are. This committee don’t care to spend its time un- 
less the thing that they are going to do is of some value. Now, 
how do I know anything fr >m this? I see written in a very 
poor hand,—certainly it could not have been by any man who 
had much information on the subject of penmanship, at least; 
because it is written worse than I write. 
Gov. Butler. And that is bad enough. 
Mr. Brown. I know it is; but, then, we write very much 
alike. 
Gov. Butler. Exactly. 
Mr. Brown. I was looking at your initials last night, and 
I noticed they were very poor. Now, this “ doubtful” — 
Gov. Butler. Glad you had so good an object of contem- 
plation. 
Mr. Brown. This “ doubtful ” ; now, who made that doub- 
ful? Who examined that child? Was it the officer who picked 
it up, and came in and said to some woman who was in attend- 
ance at the Chardon Street Home, that it was doubtful whether 
that child would live? or was it some physician who saw that 
child long enough so that during the period of the examina- 
tion it took food, and he had an opportunity of watching its 
digestion to see whether the child could hold the food or 
whether it could not? Was the child in the Chardon Street 
Home five minutes or an hour, or two hours, or a day ? Let us 
know something about it, if we are to be charged with it. 
Gov. Butler. The book shows. 
Mr. Brown. Does the book show how long this child was at 
the Chardon Street Home ? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Where? 
Gov. Butler. I will tell you ; it shows the date it came in 
and it shows the date it went out, on the same page. 
Mr. Brown. Won’t you turn to the 238th page, — I don’t 
know as I can properly interpret what is written here, — and 1883.] 
HOUSE-No. 300. 
1585 
see if you find any time when that child came into this institu- 
tion and when it came out. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, yes ; here it is. 
Mr. Brown. No ; the time when it came in. 
Gov. Butler. I am giving when found and — 
Mr. Brown. Oh, but we want to know what time it went 
into the Chardon Street Home ; that is when found. 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment, wait a moment; hold on ! 
Mr. Brown. I am waiting. 
Gov. Butler. [Referring to the book.] “ Chester Square, 
June 17, 1876; about two weeks old; b}* whom found, officer 
Cunningham, Station Five ; when brought to the home, 10 p. m. 
same da}r.” 
Mr. Brown. Does it say same day ? 
Gov. Butler. This is a record of the day’s doings! Now, 
then, here again, u Sent to Tewksbury State almshouse, Tewks- 
bury, June twentieth; ” was there three days. 
Mr. Brown. Three days ; they kept it three days and it was 
doubtful whether it would live. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; that is on this record. 
Mr. Brown. Now, where was it kept? Was it kept at 
Chardon Street Home? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. It don’t say so ; this record don’t show it. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; it is a record of the home. 
Mr. Brown. Very true ; but this record don’t show that that 
child was kept in that home, nor how it was cared for at that 
time, nor anything of the kind. Now, there is another objec- 
tion. We are willing to meet this, —I don’t object to meeting 
all these facts ; we will meet them squarety in the face, — be- 
cause I have investigated this enough to know that the record 
of this institution, on this subject, is as clean as the benevo- 
lence, the kindness and the ability of those who had it in charge 
could make it. But, let us see ; this is a cross-examination of 
a witness. Now, it is entirety immaterial to me how this com- 
mittee rule; but, if this committee rule in this record, I want it 
distinctly understood that ever}’ one of these human beings I 
shall trace ; and when I do undertake to trace them I don’t 
want to be met with the objection that I am trying to contradict 
my own witness. Nothing of the sort. I want the opportunity, 
and I shall have it, if I can get it, to trace every one of these 
human beings that is undertaken to be charged to this institu- 1586 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
tion, and whose death is said to be owing to any neglect on the 
part of its management. Now, with that understanding, Mr. 
Chairman, it is entirely immaterial to me how this committee 
shall rule or what they shall do with regard to it. 
Gov. Butler. I trust we sha’n’t be frightened. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t intend to frighten anybody. 
Gov. Butler. But, let us see how this case stands. I shew 
in my, — I made no charges, except I said in my inaugural 
address a very large percentage of infants had died ; and I said 
that some of them had been traded off. That question was 
thought by the legislature to be one which ought to be investi- 
gated, and the}r appointed you to investigate it; and it was 
thought proper by you that I should be called to make good my 
charges in some form : and, in a courteous and proper manner, 
I was called. I then proved that seventy-one out of seventy- 
three died, good, bad and indifferent, — there was no inquiry 
and no occasion to inquire, at that time, — in this institution. 
If that was so, that made my case, to use that phrase. Having 
made that case, they bring one of the Marsh family by mar- 
riage, who, after his acquaintance, married into it, — the people 
who were born in it were not to blame,—the}T bring one of them 
to contradict that record, and to explain it; and his explanation 
is, that no bab}- came there that was not sick, moribund, and 
died immediately,'and human skill, so far as he possessed it, 
could not help it; and he put the number about fifty. Now, it 
is said that I ought to have brought the Chardon Street records 
here. Pardon me ; I gave early notice, didn’t 1, Mr. Chairman, 
that I was waiting for these people that run this institution to 
get on to the stand, and then I should have some evidence 
to bring forward? The time has come. The time came to 
French Joe yesterday, and to this man yesterday ; and the time 
will come right along as they come on. 
Mr. Brown. They will all be here, nevertheless. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. They will all be here, nevertheless. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, I have no doubt; I have no doubt. Now, 
what do I do? I send to one of the old institutions in this city, 
well managed, well conducted, so far as I hear, and with whom 
the State has had dealings, and has taken those infants from it 
which belonged to the State to take, and has put them into a 
State institution. Now, I bring here those records. They are 
records kept officially for an official purpose, And we have al- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1587 
ready learned in this investigation that beauty of handwriting 
is no guarantee of accuracy of record. If we have found out 
nothing else we have found out that, because we have had re- 
cords here that are admitted to be very inaccurate, and not a 
record of daily transactions, in which the handwriting was very 
beautiful,— when the fingers were not sore. Here is a record 
kept with great care, containing just the information that it 
ought to contain, evidently kept by intelligent people, and they 
give the condition of these children as the}' came into the insti- 
tution and in most cases as they went out; for they go very 
soon out of the Chardon Street Home, for the reason that the 
city is charged with their support while they are in the Chardon 
Street Home, although they are the wards of the State, so that 
the Chardon Street Home is naturally desirous of letting them go 
as soon as proper,—and we have no right to say that they would 
do it any sooner. Now, the superintendent of that day 1 sent for 
and I cannot find, so I can get no knowledge, perhaps, in that. 
The question is, shall the record be used in evidence. We are 
told, in answer to that, that every one of these human beings,— 
and I am glad human beings are beginning to be considered of 
some consequence, so that they are going to be traced,— every 
one of these human beings shall be traced. Don’t be frightened 
with that. These two books, covering each a date, and the reg- 
ister at Tewksbury, will trace these human beings up to the 
hour when the breath left their bodies, but after that there is no 
trace. 
Mr. Brown. Inaccurate as usual. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t hear you. 
Mr. Brown. Inaccurate as usual. We shall produce one 
before we get through. 
Gov. Butler. Not inaccurate, because there is no record. 
If that has not been testified to, there is nothing true. There 
is no record of a burial. If they had died in this home there 
would have been a record of the burial and the time of burial. 
But here there is no record. I am not inaccurate. They 
cannot be traced,— all of them. I shall endeavor, before I 
get through, to trace a gooclty number of them, but then it will 
be by the wholesale rather than by retail. Now, then, the question 
is to the committee, isn’t it quite as well to spend our time upon 
this, which does concern our fellow citizens, examining it by the 
record, as it is to spend days here attempting to bring police 
officers who don’t know the character for truth and veracity of 1588 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cornelius O’Brien ? I submit to you ; because, suppose Corne- 
lius O’Brien dropped out of this case? He is only one small 
element in it, exceedingly minute, in the great mass. Now, I 
ask the vote of the committee as to whether they will receive 
this record, so that I can examine this party upon it for the pur- 
pose of showing that he has not told the truth. That is the 
point,— to contradict him. So it is just in order, just in time. 
He has given a false explanation of this, as I believe. I have 
the means of testing it. I asked him to bring his books, and he 
has not, and he says he can’t find them. That is not my 
fault. And, therefore, I have brought others. I appealed to his 
books, they appealed to their books, and we have dealt with the 
books of the institution ; and that is why books are kept, for 
the very purpose of investigation. The difficulty has been that 
the other books have not been kept so that anybody could inves- 
tigate anything with certainty. These happen to be kept so we 
can. 
Mr. Brown. Let me just say a single word. 
[The Chairman and Gov. Butler both interrupted.] 
Mr. Brown. You may have the close on me. 
Gov. Butler. No, I will not. 
The Chairman. I think you have said enough. 
Mr. Brown. I was going to say I would withdraw all objec- 
tion as to the book, if we can have any information about how 
the record is made up. 
Gov. Butler. You can go and get any information you like. 
Mr. Brown. I think that it is your duty to produce the in- 
formation . 
Gov. Butler. I produce the record ; it is for you to im- 
peach it, if you can. 
The Chairman. My view of it is that this book is competent 
for certain purposes. I suppose the real question for the com- 
mittee is, what was the condition of the children, either when 
they reached Tewksbury or when they started,—}Tour Excellency 
says it was an hour and a half in transit. The real point is, 
what was the condition of the children when they started or 
when the}r got there. AYell, now, this book may or ma}' not 
state that condition. I think the keeper of the book, or the 
present clerk of the institution, should be brought in at 
some time, to tell us who made the entries, whether the police 
officer said “ diseased,” or whether the physician of the Chardon 
Street Home made up that part of the record. I think the book 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1589 
is admissible. Perhaps it should have gone in in chief, but I 
don’t think that question is of enough importance to discuss. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think their condition very important, 
because it will be found they died indiscriminately. 
The Chairman. 1 think the committee will admit the book, 
but, unless the governor produces the book-keeper, the commit- 
tee will have the book-keeper summoned. Is that satisfactory? 
Mr. Brown. The governor says the entry as to condition is 
not material, and if it is not we don’t want the book. 
Gov. Butler. Now, pardon me ; when you repeat a man’s 
statement you ought to repeat the whole of it. The only time 
God Almighty struck a man dead, or woman, was for keeping 
back part of the truth. 
Mr. Brown. He has been very kind to us. 
Gov. Butler. Speak for yourself, sir. 
The Chairman. Let us reserve the argument for final hear- 
ing. 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, I was saying this : simply that it 
didn’t become very important what their condition was, because 
I said that the record will show that the good died with the bad, 
and the bad died with the good, living just about so long; it 
was an even thing. Good health didn’t keep one alive any 
longer up there, and bad health didn’t, as a rule, hasten death, 
as will appear by comparison. Now. 1 have stated the whole 
of it. 
Mr. Chamberlain. 1 was going to say that if this evidence 
is admitted, as I don’t see why it should not be, I shall certainly 
vote to give all the time that is necessary to fully rebut this, as 
L shall an}’ other evidence that has been put in on the other 
side. Now, if this goes in, it must go in with that understand- 
ing, that there shall be time given to rebut it. 
The Chairman. I am beginning to think time is of no con- 
sequence to this committee. 
Gov. Butler. I will give up to the first day of next Janu- 
ary, if it is necessary ; 1 can’t promise to give any longer. 
Mr. Brown. I am glad you don’t feel sure of it any longer. 
The Chairman. Governor, you may go on with the book. 
Mr. Gilmore. I think, before these hooks are admitted as 
evidence we should know whether this statement of the condi- 
tion of the children was made up under the authority of the 
physician or by a clerk ; I think it is important. 1590 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. That is, I must prove that the Chardon Street 
Home is well run ? 
The Chairman. No : you must prove the book kept by 
somebody. You bring a book here we don’t know anything about. 
Of course, it is the book of the Chardon Street Home, but. if 
objection is made, it would seem that somebody should identity 
the book. 
Mr. Gilmore. J suppose it would be very easy to prove the 
habit or custom ; whether the custom is to have the children 
examined by the physician. 
Gov. Butler. I no doubt it can be shown so ; I have 
no doubt it can be shown. 
Mr. Gilmore. T think the committee should haA'e that knowl- 
edge. 
Gov. Butler. I saw a lady from the Chardon Street Home 
yesterday, and I asked her if she was the head of it. covering 
these years, and she said she was not; she was then an employee 
in the home, and, therefore, I didn’t call her. I supposed she 
was the head of it. But, what would you do with these books 
supposing the Chardon Street Home had been burned up in the 
Boston fire and everybod}7 in it, and the books had been saved ? 
The Chairman. Prove the handwriting as near as we can. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me, that wouldn’t help it at all. 
The Chairman. It might or might not. Of course, there is 
difficulty there. 
Mr. Gilmore. I am perfectly Avilling to have the books ad- 
mitted, but, before I should lie willing to vote for that. 1 should 
Avant to know by whose authority these reports were made. 
Gov. Butler. If the committee will permit me : the books, 
like every other book, like the books of every other institution, 
and almost of every business, are to be admitted prima facie 
correct, open to correction and to impeachment by the other side 
to any extent they desire ; that is the rule. 
Mr. Brown. And to remain here for our examination. 
Gov. Butler. Why, certainly, sir. 
The Chairman. Do you make that motion. Mr. Senator, 
that before the book is admitted — 
Mr. Gilmore. I do. 
The Chairman. The motion is made, GoArernor, that before 
the books are admitted some one come up and testify as to who 
made the entries. 1 suppose Mr. Innis can go right down there. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know as anybody can tell it. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1591 
Mr. Gilmore. I don’t mean that; I don’t mean who; but 
whether b}7 the authority of the physician, — whether there was 
an examination by a physician. That is the point I wish to 
raise. 
Gov. Butler. Now, gentlemen of the committee, let us 
have a little of what my brother Brown calls “ horse sense.’’ 
Here is a book — 
Mr. Brown. I am glad you are coming around to my propo- 
sition. * 
Gov. Butler. “ Children and foundlings, volume first, over- 
seers of the poor of the city of Boston.” There is a record of 
the city of Boston, by the overseers of the poor, kept of a par- 
ticular class.— of foundlings. It has been offered for a purpose. 
Here is another volume. City of Boston, volume two, over- 
seers of the poor, children and foundlings.” This is a history 
of the children and foundlings. Then, here [taking up another 
book] they changed the form, made it a little more compact; that 
was thought to be a little too large. Now, here is another book, 
labelled on the outside, “ Children and Foundlings, City Tem- 
porary Home.” And then come other years when they are a lit- 
tle smaller, because they had rather stretched it out, taking a 
whole page for a single infant, and it was so large a book they 
made it smaller. And then there is an index to them. Do you 
think, now, really, gentlemen of the committee, that these have 
been got up by me for this occasion and, therefore, they want 
to be identified ? 
The Chairman. No, Governor, but we don’t know that they 
are kept any better than they are at Tewksbury; that is our 
trouble. We don’t know who kept them. The assumption is, 
as you say, that they are correctly kept. 
Gov. Butler. What good would it do when you did know 
they were correctly kept? 
The Chairman. It is a question in my mind what weight the 
books would have with us, but it is the admissibility we are dis- 
cussing. 
Gov. Butler. I offer the books ; you can rule them out if 
you choose. I sha’n’t do any more. 
Mr. Gilmore. It seems to me it would take but a little while 
to have somebody from the institution to give us the informa- 
tion we want. 
Gov. Butler. If I can’t rely on the books of the city of 
Boston prima facie, I am done. 1592 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I supposed the question was with regard 
to the physical condition of the children at the time the}7 made 
the record. 
The Chairman. 1 suppose that is the fact. We want to 
know who reported that the child is diseased. If it was the 
physician, which I presume was the case, it will have great 
weight with the committee ; if it was not, it will have little or 
no weight. I presume the present physician of the Chardon 
Street Home would give us all the light we might need. 
Gov. Butler. He may be alive or dead ; I don’t know, 
sir. 
Mr. Risteen. 1 think, Mr. Chairman, the books should be 
admitted, and I hope the committee will vote on it now. 
Gov. Butler. I had rather have the opinion of an old 
woman nurse than that of a green physician, — that is, when he 
has first graduated. 
Mr. Gilmore. I shall bo obliged to vote against the admis- 
sion, unless we cam have the statement of some one who knows 
by what authority these reports are made. I think the commit- 
tee are entitled to that information, and it can be had in a very 
few minutes. 
The Chairman. Any other member of the committee any- 
thing to say? 
Mr. Chester. Is it understood we cannot get the information 
the senator asks for? 
The Chairman. I don’t understand it so. 
Mr. Chester. I should like to be informed. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I have a gentleman here whom 
1 will send down to the institution. I think he is competent to 
get the information. I will send him down and see if he can’t 
get a man, because I would like to meet this branch of the case. 
Gov. Butler. I am very much obliged to the gentleman for 
sending his messenger. That man has been sent to a good 
many places. 
Mr. Brown. I know he lias, and he has always brought out 
the truth. 
Gov. Butler. Especially the true reputation for truth and 
veracitv of O’Brien. 
* 
The Chairman. The question is, shall the books be now ad- 
mitted ? 
Mr. Learnard. Before that is put, I understand that Senator 
Gilmore has made a motion that they be admitted conditionally. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1593 
I am prepared to vote for the admission of the books under the 
restriction proposed by Senator Gilmore. 
The Chairman. How will you put the question ; what is the 
motion ? 
Mr. Learnaro. That the motion of Senator Gilmore be put 
first. 
Mr. Gilmore. I said I was in favor of admitting the books 
as evidence, if I could be satisfied that these examinations were 
made by a competent person, physician,—or some other compe- 
tent person,—otherwise I should have to vote against it. My 
motion was not conditional. 
The Chairman. I understand the question is whether the 
books shall be admitted or not. 
Mr. Risteen. 1 think that is the motion before the commit 
tee, and I hope the motion will be put at this time. 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me that we have got to ignore, we 
are obliged to ignore the record of an institution which we all 
assume is well kept, when we say that we don’t know whether 
these records are made by parties competent to make them- 
Now, I assume that the Chardon Street Home would not have 
parties there making such records unless they were competent; 
because this is an establishment of the poor department of the 
city of Boston, where they have a great deal to do, a large 
amount to disburse there, and it is necessary to have proper 
persons to make such records. And I shall assume that the 
books, if they are admitted at all. are competent as they are. 
The Chairman. I have no doubt the books are well kept; 
the question is whether the record that a child was diseased was 
made by a clerk, by a policeman who picked the child up in the 
street, or by a phvsician who personally examined the child. 
Now, it seems to me — 
Gov. Butler. A little examination will show that it was not 
made by the policeman, sir. 
The Chairman. Now, the evidence will have no weight in 
the mind of any member of the committee as to the condition of 
the child, unless the committee know who pronounced upon the 
disease. That is my difficulty. 
Mr. Gilm»re. I have not questioned the correctness of the 
books at all, but I think the committee are entitled to that in- 
formation. to know whether this examination was made, these 
reports made by a physician or some competent person. 
The Chairman. These are not the books of the party on 1594 
Cl I AKITA RLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
trial, these are the books of another concern brought in. It 
seems to me the}" should be proved. But I will put the ques- 
tion, unless some member of the committee desires to say some- 
thing. 
Mr. Chamberlain. Mr. Chairman, it seems very easy, if 
there is a desire to do so, to prove what was the general con- 
duct of the institution ten years ago, whether it was intended to 
have a person there who made that record who was competent 
to judge of the physical condition of the children. That must 
be very easy to show, if there was any wish to show it, it seems 
to me. 
Gov. Butler. I doubt very much, myself, whether the per- 
son who made the record had an}’ such competency. I should 
believe, in a well-regulated institution, she would, or he, who- 
ever made it,— sometimes it is a lady, I think, by the handwrit- 
ing,— he or she would put it down as she was directed by some 
doctor, or nurse, or some proper person. 
The Chairman. Unquestionably; that is just what the com- 
mittee would like to know. 
Gov. Butler. If they have any doubt as to the propriety of 
the conduct of that home, it is a matter which we can investi- 
gate into ; but I had supposed that the moment I went into that, 
I should be told, as I have been once by a vote of the com- 
mittee, — which, I believe, is the only time they have overruled 
me, — that they didn’t want to investigate into other institu- 
tions. E assume that the books of the institution are correctly 
kept, that is all. If I brought the treasurer’s books of Harvard 
College here, as I may have to yet, I should not expect to bring 
anybody to prove that Harvard College had a competent treas- 
urer, or that the books were kept correctly, unless I had some 
means of impeaching them, and then I should bring them in 
first, and offer them in evidence as they were, and then put in 
evidence of impeachment. 
Mr. Gilmore. Mr. Chairman. The great reluctance to show 
the fact of who kept these, or by whose authority they are kept, 
leads me to suspect that they were not kept, or the report not 
made by a competent person. 
Gov. Butler. That is always for the person who impeaches 
the book. The book is primei facie. The acts of public offi- 
cers are always prima facie correct, and then they are to be in- 
quired into. Precisely as the books of Tewksbury were to be 
taken to be correct till they were inquired into. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1595 
The Chairman. Is the committee ready for the question ? 
Mr. Wolcott. AVhat, is the question, Mr. Chairman? 
What form has it? 
The Chairman. The question is on admitting the books. 
[The committee voted four in favor and four against.] 
The Chairman. The books are rejected. I should say that 
if m3’ vote was necessaiy, I should vote no, because 1 think that 
the fact should be known to the committee as to who passed 
upon the ptysical condition of those children. 
Mr. Gilmore. That was my only objection to the admittance 
of the books. 
The Chairman. And at some future time, if that is shoivn, 
I have no doubt the books will be admitted. Go on, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, let us take the register; 1 believe 
that has been proved. I shall never offer these books again. 
There don’t happen to be one member of the minority who is 
here, I believe. 
The Chairman. We are all in the minority, Governor, and 
all in the majority7. Two members of what }7ou probably call 
the minorit}7 — 
Gov. Butler. Yes, I know. 
The Chairman. Two members of what you call the minority, 
I believe, are present. The others we should be very glad to 
have present. 
Gov. Butler. Now, have }’ou examined, Mr. Records, the 
infants that came between the 22nd of July and the 28th of No- 
vember, in regard to this record. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I pray the judgment of this committee 
whether I am to be interrupted in this defence by the introduc- 
tion of evidence on the part of Ilis l supposed I 
had the right to pursue my defence uninterrupted. His Excel- 
lenc}7 occupied from the 30th of March, and I supposed that the 
time was now mine. 
The Chairman. I understood by the vote that the Char- 
don Street Home books at present are excluded. 
Gov. Butler. How-? 
The Chairman. I understood by the vote the Chardon 
Street Home books are excluded. If that is one of them — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me, I so understand it; and, I trust, 
}7ou cannot go so far as to suppose that, after that vote, 1 
should interfere with it at all, — with the vote of the committee, 
— or should undertake to put in the books. On the contrary, I 1596 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
said I never should offer the books again ; and I have now got 
the register of this foundling slaughter-house at Tewksbury. 
The Chairman. Very well, Governor, go on ; I was under a 
misapprehension as to the books. 
Mr. Brown. As to that, Mr. Chairman, I don’t see why 1 
should be interrupted in my defence. If Dr. Putney is to be 
asked anything from this record, 1 don’t object. 
Gov. Butler. I am going to do so. 
Mr. Brown. 1 understood you to offer Mr. Records as a wit- 
ness. 
Gov. Butler. I asked Mr. Records, for the purposes of ex- 
amination, to save time, to go over- and get this collated, and 
he will give you the conclusion. Then 1 am going to ask Dr. 
Putney some questions upon this state of their own books. 
The Chairman. 1 think you should finish with Dr. Putne\ 
now, and if you want him to be recalled, he can be recalled 
after you have put in Mr. Records. 
Gov. Butlek. I am not recalling him, sir; he is now my 
witness on the stand. 
The Chairman. Dr. Putney? 
Gov. Butler. Certainly, sir. I am only asking Mr. Records, 
as I would ask anybody else, to assist me in the examination. 
I can take as much time as you desire, gentlemen, but 1 am 
trying to hasten ; but, unless you desire to prolong the matter, 
you can ha ve the assistance of somebody that can aid you very 
fast, lie can assist in giving what is in the books. It would 
take me a long time to find out. 
The Chairman. Now, exactly. Governor, what is your pro- 
position ? 
Gov. Butler. My proposition is to ask Dr. Putney whether 
these infants, — whose names I shall call, and show died,— 
were the infants he refers to when he says they were all sick. 
The Chairman, Go ahead ; I don’t see any objection to it. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me — 
The Chairman. I was under a misapprehension as to what 
you meant. 
Gov. Butler. I must do it one at a time, if you choose; 
otherwise, I was going to see how it stood on the books, and 
then ask him if there were any other class of infants he referred 
to than those, and then I asked him to examine these books, 
and he didn’t. 
The Chairman. Proceed. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1597 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, Mr. Records, will you tell me 
where I shall find the first one, if we have got to go through it 
this way? 
Mr. Records. 49,313. 
Gov. Butler. I have had a list made out to facilitate, but 
if there is any purpose for which the committee want to take as 
much time as possible, I am willing to yield to it. Now, we 
have got 49,313, Jennie Wilde, Genieve Wilde, age, 3-52 
years; foundling; died August 12, 1876; found on Highland 
Street. Now, give the next one, please. 
Mr. Records. 24 — 
Gov. Butler. Joseph Le Blood. I want to repeat it again ; 
the}" can have this in five minutes, if they choose to take it in 
that way. u Ettie Trask, 1-12,”— one month old,— “ unknown ; 
Boston ; diseased ; foundling ;” —condition “ foundling ” ; — 
“ October 13, 1876 ; found at Unity Street, May 26 ; ”—died in 
how many months, sir? 
Mr. Records. A month. 
Gov. Butler. Take the next one. 
Mr. Records. 49,584. 
Mr. Brown. So far as I am concerned, Governor, if you 
have got this made out, I will take Mr. Records’s statement and 
then examine it. 
Gov. Butler. I thought it would be best; but the commit- 
tee want it the other way. 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t know what }rou had there ; but, if Mr. 
Records has made the examination he may submit his record, 
his figures, and if we find any errors in it we will call attention 
to it. 
Gov. Butler. He will state it right through, and then you 
can see if it is correct. Now, Mr. Records, give us those that 
you are sure of. Won’t yon tell me when they came in and 
what their disease was, if any, and when they died. 
Mr. Records. I have examined these ; I compared these with 
the record on the Chardon Street book to see how the descrip- 
tion compared, and the times of entry at Tewksbury, compared 
on the Tewksbury record. 
Mr. Brown. I object to that. The books are excluded of 
the Chardon Street Home. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; I don’t ask you that, sir. You 
did examine in that way. How did you find it here? Go on, 
sir. 1598 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Records. Well, the condition is not, — it is sometimes 
stated there. I haven’t examined that, specially. 
Gov. Butler. Yon took the condition from the Chardon 
Street books ? 
Mr. Records. I took the condition from the Chardon Street 
books, and then I put down simply the date on which they died. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; when did they enter, and when 
did they die? Take them right along. 
Mr. Records. There was one entered Juty 25 and died Aug- 
ust 12. The next one, August 17 ; died September 2. Aug- 
ust 17, condition doubtful, — the previous one was doubtful; this 
one was doubtful. 
Gov. Butler. That appears on the Chardon Street, or here ? 
Mr. Records. That appears on the Chardon Street. 
Gov. Butler. Then leave that out. 
Mr. Records. Admitted on the seventeenth of August and 
died on the second of September. Next one, September 13 and 
died October 13 ; next one, September 2 and died October 5 ; 
November 11 and died December 19 ; Nov. 15 and died Dec. 
21 ; December 19 and died January 12, 1877 ; November 24, 
1876, and died the same day at Tewksbur}'; December 18, 
1876, died January 2, 1877 ; December 30, 1876, died January 
18, 1877 ; January 6, 1877, and died the thirteenth of January ; 
on the eighteenth of January and died February 1 ; next one 
on the seventeenth of January and died on the twenty-third ; 
on the eighteenth of Januar}7 and died on the tenth of Februa- 
ry ; fourteenth of January and died on the twenty-sixth of Feb- 
ruary ; the next one was admitted May 8 and died June 6 ; 
another one May 8 and died June 6 ; another one May 8 and 
died June 1 ; the next one May 29 and died June 3 ; the next 
one June 4 and died July 9 ; June 14, died June 23 ; June 19 
and died June 24 ; July 20 and died August 25. That is as 
far as I have got. 
Gor. Butler. And how many are there of them ? 
Mr. Records. About twenty-five I should think. 
Gov. Butler. And are they the twenty-five right along 
steadily on this record as coming from Chardon Street? 
Mr. Records. Yes, sir ; twenty-three. 
Gov. Butler. And }tou found that the record right along? 
Mr. Records. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is, it would show if I should read them 
there right along. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1599 
Q. Now, Doctor, do you mean to say these were all sick 
children that came there? A. I mean to say, sir, that all the 
children I had to do with in the foundling department were sick 
when they entered. Aside from that I have nothing further to 
say. My memory does not cover individual cases. 
Q. Well, how many of these foundlings came there from 
other institutions? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. About how man}r? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Have you ever examined it to see? A. No, sir. 
Q.' Did a large majority of these die with the same symp- 
toms? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Do your books show what symptoms they died of? A. 
I haven’t any books, sir, and I don’t remember the books. 
Q. What? A. I don’t remember the books. 
Q. Why, you said you did examine some books, just now ; 
do those show they died all the same? A. They don’t show 
symptoms, sir; no, sir. Diagnosis hasn’t to do with symp- 
toms. 
Q. I know. Now, according to your remembrance, does 
your book, which shows six of syphilis and some having chronic 
diseases, in your judgment does tha’t exhibit a fair proportion? 
A. I will say, sir, that when I made these diagnoses it was 
according to my best knowledge and belief. 
Q. I have no doubt. Now, if you will attend to the ques- 
tion you will answer it, 1 have no doubt. That covers only a 
small period ; now, were the other children, as you remember 
them, with about the same average of diseases? A. About 
the same average ; yes, sir; as I stated on the start. 
Q. Then, out of 21, six having syphilis,—out of 71, we should 
have to have, if I remember the number right, —out of 71 we 
should have to have the same proportion ? A. Not necessarily. 
Q. If these wrere a fair average, you would ; I asked you 
that. A. There were five of syphilis. 
Q. Five. Then, as 5 is to 21, so is 71 to the answer. Now, 
did any of these die of vomiting? A. That is not a disease ; 
no, sir. 
Q. I suppose a child might be so afflicted with vomiting as 
that to be the cause of its death? A. No, sir; the cause of 
the vomiting is the cause of death in such a case. 
Q. Certainly ; and the child being born is the cause of its 
Cross-examination of Dr. Putney continued. 1600 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
death, because it could not have died without being born, the 
same way, I suppose. Did they die while vomiting? A. I 
don’t remember a case, sir. 
Q. Do you remember the}' did or they didn’t? A. I don’t 
remember whether they did or did not. 
Q. Were there many of them nauseated and vomiting? A. 
I don’t remember a case that died in that condition. 
Q. Do you remember any that were afflicted before death in 
that way? A. Yes; some of them vomited. 
Q. How large a proportion? Certain a quarter of them? 
A. More or less. 
Q. We are told by somebody that there was quite an 
epidemic amongst them at one time ; was that during your ad- 
ministration ? A. An epidemic of what, sir? 
Q. Something that carried them off. A. The}' all died 
while I was there ; you might consider it a continuous epidemic. 
Q. They all died. A. There was no infectious, —there was 
no acute disease that pervaded the institution, if you mean 
that, — no measles or scarlet fever. 
Q. Among these foundlings ; and they said a large number 
died of inflammation of the bowels, or some disease of the 
bowels, at some time ; I don’t know whether it was under your 
administration or not, — that a large majority of the deaths 
were that way. A. I don’t remember any such instance. 
Q. Don’t remember? A. No, sir. 
Q. Very well. Did you complain to any person, and, if so, 
to whom, of the sending babies there that were moribund? A. 
No, sir ; I did not. 
Q. Now, a good deal has been asked about complaints made 
to you ; were you the person to have complaints made to, or the 
resident physician? A. A certain line of complaints were 
properly made to me when I had charge of that institution, that 
department. 
Q. That department; such as what? A. Well, lack of 
clothing. 
Q. Lack of clothing. A. Or inattention on the part of the 
under nurses, attendants. 
Q. Anything else? A. Well, anything that interfered 
with or that was contrary to the usual rules observed from day 
to day. 
Q. If there was anything wanted? A. If there was any- 
thing wanted and was not furnished, I was notified. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1601 
Q. And as to the discharges ; you had no right to discharge 
anybody? A. You mean attendants? 
Q. Yes. A. No. 
Q. That used to be done by the resident physician? A. I 
could complain in such cases. 
Q. You could complain; I understand. Now, then, I 
understood you to say that, during the time j'ou were there, you 
never heard a complaint of ill-usage of anybody? A. On the 
part of attendants ? 
Q. Ill-usage by anybody to anybody. A. You waiting for 
an answer, sir? 
Q. I am. A. If you will put the question in a different 
form I will answer it, sir. I cannot answer that question. 
Q. Can’t you? A. No, sir; I said yesterda}', sir, that I 
never had, — no complaints were made to me, and never did I 
hear of any abuses.' 
Q. Well, I want you to give it to us again, if you will. Did 
you ever hear of any complaint of any wrong or abuse by one 
person to another in that institution while you were there? A. 
According to the best of my knowledge and belief, sir, I never 
did. 
Q. Never did. Did you ever hear of any complaints by any 
person to any officer, or to yourself, of anything what was 
deemed by that person to be wrong or abuse? A. I don’t re- 
member of any case. 
Q. Don’t remember. Is your memory so }rou know whether 
there was not ? A. My memory, sir, is very good concerning 
•matters I wish to remember, wish to retain. 
Q. Would you have reason to remember that? A. Since I 
have left the institution, sir, I have forgotten a great deal that 
occurred there. 
Q. Evidently. Now, can you tell me that you have such a 
memory that }rou can or cannot tell whether there was any com- 
plaint of any abuses? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then, so far as you know, sir, everybody there was satis- 
fied with everything, and everything was in a condition that 
ought to be satisfied with it; that was it, was it ? 
Except the want of a microscope. A. So far as I remember. 
Q. So far as you remember. Well, you were there when the 
investigation went on? A. What, in 1876? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. Was that in the winter before? A. I presume so. 1602 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You heard of it, I suppose? A. I heard of it. 
Q. As taking place before. And, then, from the time you 
got there up to the time you left, everything, you answered me, 
everything, so far as you knew, was just as it ought to be, and 
everybody was perfectly satisfied as it was ; nobody got hurt, 
nobody got abused, nobody got struck, the food was just as it 
ought to be, everything was lovely. Well, now, did I under- 
stand you? You say so, do you? That is the fair result of 
your testimony, is it? A. Well, sir, you put it in a way that 
covers more ground than I had expected the question would. 
Q. Take out an}' piece of ground. A. I supposed you 
referred simply to abuses. 
Q. That allows so wide a — some people don’t think it is 
an abuse to knock a person down — that allows so wide a line 
for judgment I didn’t let you answer on abuses ; therefore, I 
broadened the question ; because, you see, I could see a place,— 
I am an old lawyer and have seen witnesses before, — I could 
see the place where you could get out. I wanted to cover it all. 
Do you mean to cover it all, or do you mean to say there were 
things there that you had omitted? A. Well, sir, I am willing 
to let it stand as I have stated. 
Q. Did you ever have your attention called to the case of a 
woman that was supposed to have been beaten, and did you 
examine the body to see if there were black and blue spots? A. 
The case I mentioned yesterday — 
Q. Leave out any cases you mentioned yesterday. A. I 
saw the case of a woman who died, and on her body were spots 
which a bystander suggested were the cause of violence, but 
there was no accusation made. 
Q. Who was the bystander? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Was he doing that approvingly or complainingly ? A. 
I don’t remember. 
Q. He was suggesting they were caused by violence — was 
it he or she who said it? A. I don’t remember, sir. 
Q. Somebody suggested that this woman died by violence, 
and there were spots showing that she died by violence, and 
you don’t remember who it was; and you don’t remember the 
name of the person ? A. I do not. 
Q. But you did examine to see if it were caused by violence. 
Didn’t you understand that was a source of complaint? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Well, there was somebody in the institution who said: 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1603 
This woman has got bruises, ecchymosis on her body, or remains 
of them, that show that. You went into an examination of this, 
and you didn’t understand there was any complaint about it? 
A. It was not ecchymosis, sir ; if it had been I should have in- 
quired. 
Q. Ah ; pardon me. He suggested that there were black 
and blue spots. Perhaps I am not right in my technical term ; 
I was not educated at Harvard. But I understand a black and 
blue spot is ecchymosis. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then I am right. Then the complaint that there were 
black and blue spots on this woman was, he said there were 
black and blue spots on this woman, which were the result of 
violence ; you examined to see whether they were or not, and 
you now don’t remember that there was any complaint made 
about that? A. That is what I said. 
Q. If there w7as no complaint why did you examine? If 
everything was all lovely wiry did you examine? A. I exam- 
ined the body, saw the body before anything was said. It was 
very apparent as soon as the body was seen. 
Q. Precisely so. You examined it before anything was 
said? A. It is the custom there to do it. 
Q. Did you examine it afterwards? A. I examined it 
before and after. 
Q. Well, after as well as before? A. I saw it. 
Q. Of course you would see it, if it was in your department; 
you ought to see everybody that was dead. Now, y7ou saw the 
body; what did you examine it before anybody said anything 
about it for? A. Well, sir, I am unable to answer. I don’t 
remember. I know that person was dead, and I was called to 
view the body. I attended to my business, but aside from that 
I don’t remember. 
Q. Well, when yTou were called to view the body7 you were 
told — I suppose it was false, you know—you were told by 
somebody that that person had been beaten? A. I don’t 
remember. 
Q. Or that she had been kicked and pulled about? A. I 
don’t remember that anything was said as to the cause of those 
spots. 
Q. Well, afterwards, somebody did say that there were spots 
caused by violence? Didn’t some person say7 that there had 
been ; didn’t some person there in the room, Mr. Putney, say7 
that there had been violence to this woman, and that they 1604 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
thought the spots showed it? A. I say when I viewed the 
body I saw those spots, and — 
Q. I don’t ask you that. You won’t get rid of me that way. 
Somebody did say that those spots, in their judgment and their 
belief, were spots on the body caused by violence. Didn’t 
those same persons say that violence had been applied, as they 
understood it? A. I don’t know, sir. I know — 
Q. I don’t care what else you know if you don’t know that, 
because the rest is not very valuable. Now, don’t you know 
that the person that called attention to those spots, said in some 
form of words that that woman — we want to know who it was, 
and will have it before we get through —that that woman had 
been violently used in some way? A. No, sir. 
Q. You don’t? A. No, sir; I have no recollection as to 
what was said, specifically. 
Q. But without saying specifically, in general, in an}- way, 
giving any intimation that that woman had been violently 
treated ? A. 1 can only repeat, sir — I did not get the drift of 
the last question. 
Q. Well, I will give it to you. Pardon me ; don’t attempt to 
answer a question you don’t get the drift of. The drift of the 
question is not of so much importance as what the question is. 
Now, do you understand this : did anybody say, when they 
called your attention to those black and blue spots, did anybody 
say in any form of words, or intimate to you in any way or 
shape, anything which conveyed to your mind the belief of that 
person that violence had been done to that woman? A. Yes ; 
I so stated yesterday. 
Q. I don’t know what you stated yesterday. A. That a 
bystander called my attention to these spots, and I said they 
were changes which very often occur. 
Q. I am not asking whether such changes very often occur. 
Answer my question. Did that bystander, whoever he was, say 
or intimate to you in some form of words, convey to your mind 
the idea that force had been applied and that was the result, — 
applied to that corpse in its lifetime, and that that was the result? 
Now, that is what I want an answer to and nothing else. A. 
Yes. 
Q. Yes; he did. Then there was a complaint in that case, 
wasn’t there, that somebody had been beaten or kicked, or undue 
force used in the lifetime of that corpse, and the body showed 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1605 
it? A. I didn’t recognize that as a complaint, sir; it came 
from an unofficial person. 
Q. One particular person. I thought you told me you didn’t 
know who it was. Who was it? A. I said before I didn't 
know who it was. 
Q. How do you know it was a particular person? A. I 
would swear it was not an official. 
Q. But an official never complained of anything that was 
done there. I am not asking you about the complaint of an 
official. They were all of one famil}', and the}" never com-* 
plained of any one in particular. How do you know who it was 
unless it was an official ? Because no official would call attem 
tion to a fact of that kind. A. By official I mean — 
Q. Yes ; I mean official. A. I should have said physician. 
Q. You meant to have said physician. 
Q. Oh, you meant to have said a physician. Pardon me ; if 
a physician had seen a woman beaten would they have called 
your attention to the fact that one of your women had been 
beaten, and there she was dead? A. A physician would pro- 
bably have called my attention to the fact; but I considered 
and I have said that these spots were not the result of violence, 
Q. I have heard that ten times, and I understand that was 
your belief. But I want to get the belief of somebody else. 
Now, do yon know who the person was that called your atten- 
tion to it? A. I do not. 
Q. How do you know it was not an official person? A. 
Well, I can only say that I know it was not, but I don’t know 
how I can substantiate it. 
Q. Yon know it was not, but you don’t know how you know. 
Let us try again. You have said it was one particular person. 
How do you know that? A. Well, I know it, sir, as well as I 
know anything. 
Q. I have no doubt about that, but how do you know it? 
You know it is one particular person ; if you don’t know who 
it was, how do you know it was a particular person? A. I 
know it was a person. 
Q. Why did you put in the adjective particular? 
Mr. Brown. He didn’t, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I beg your pardon. 
Mr. Brown. I beg }rour pardon ; he has not used the word 
particular; and I will ask reference to the official report. Ht 
used the words official and physician. 1606 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Particular is the word, and not official or phy- 
sician. That is another dodge. He used the word particular 
over and over again, and I think everybody, almost, understood 
it so. 
Mr. Brown. He didn’t say so. 
Gov. Butler. I guess, put it to vote, we should have the 
usual vote on this question. 
[The reporter read the answer above, “ I didn’t recognize that 
as a complaint, sir, it came from an unofficial person,” and the 
question immediately following.] 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Have you any idea who that was? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, didn’t you understand that that was a complaint? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. What did you understand that was? 
The Chairman. Wait a moment, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t understand. 
The Chairman. I didn’t know but some member of the com- 
mittee wanted to make some suggestion. 
Gov. Butler. I wait. 
The Chairman. Proceed. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, sir, what did you understand 
it was ? Here was somebody saying that force had been used, 
and there were black and blue spots to show it; did you think 
it was a phrase? A. It was a remark. 
Q. A complimentary one ? A. I simply say I looked upon 
it as a remark. As to the peculiar kind or bearing of the remark 
I would not say. 
Q. How came anybody but you to examine the body of this 
woman so they could remark the black and blue spots ? If they 
had seen her beaten they might have supposed they were there. 
How came anybody to examine the black and blue spots instead 
of you ? A. I don’t know that anybody did examine for black 
and blue spots. I didn’t examine for black and blue spots. 
Q. How did anybody examine for black and blue spots, ex- 
cept you? A. I don’t know, sir ; I had nothing to do with 
that. 
Q. Was it the duty of anybody to do it? A. It was the 
duty of the attendant of the hospital to see that the body was 
property laid out. 
Q. Before the physician viewed it to see whether death had 
taken place? A. Not always, sir. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1607 
Q. Now, was not this it? When a person was supposed to 
he dead the physician was called in to view the body? A. The 
physician always saw the bod}7 before it was buried, as far as I 
know. 
A. I didn’t ask that. A. Well, yes, sir ; the physician was 
called in to view the body. 
Q. That was the first thing done, was it not, after death, or 
what ought to have been done? A. No, sir ; the bodies were 
sometimes laid out first and prepared for burial. 
Q. Prepared before the physician had given an opinion as to 
death; is that the rule? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then, where would they be laid out for burial? A. 
Well, I don’t remember, sir, as there was any particular room 
in the insane department. 
Q. Was there any particular place ? Was not the body of 
a dead person removed from the bed 'into the coffin beside the 
bed, as a rule? A. I don’t remember of ever seeing that done 
in the insane department; I believe you refer to that alone. 
Q. What made you think I referred to the insane depart- 
ment ; I never said anything about it? A. Well, I inferred it 
simply from what you said. 
Q. What was it that I said that you inferred it from ? A. 
Well, because we were talking about an insane person who died 
at the insane asylum. We hadn’t been talking about anybody 
else. 
Q. Well, when? A. I don’t know when. 
Q. But when were we talking about that? A. For the last 
ten minutes. 
Q. Oh, no, I asked you if you knew the person and you said 
you didn’t. A. You asked me if I knew the person who made 
this remark. 
Q. No ; 1 asked you if you knew the person who died? Well, 
now, I thank you. I understand you distinctly. A. I know 
she was in the insane department, but I don’t know who she 
was. 
Q. You don’t know who she was, but she was in the insane 
department. Then she was an insane person who had been 
supposed to have been beaten without complaint. Now, as a 
rule, in that institution, were not the bodies put from the bed 
into the coffin ? A. I cannot say, sir, as to the insane de- 
partment ; but in the other hospitals, when there was room in the 1608 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
isolated ward, or a smaller room, they were put into that room 
and properly dressed for burial. 
Q. Will you answer my question ? A. That is as well as I 
can answer it, sir. 
Q. Whether as an ordinary practice — not for reasons this, 
that and the other — but as an ordinary • practice was not the 
bod}’ put directly into the box beside the bed, or at the end of 
the bed? Now, that is a plain question. A. Well, sir, 
according to the best of 1113' recollection they were not; the}' 
were isolated. 
Q. According to your best recollection. That goes to all 
the wards, does it? A. All the hospital wards. 
Q. All the wards where people died? A. According to 
my best recollection that is so ; yes, sir. 
Q. Have yon such recollection you will swear it is so ? A. 
I won’t swear either way. 
Q. Then it is where you have recollection, but won’t swear 
to it. Now I only want you to give me recollections you will 
swear to. I want to get from you if this was not it. You were 
there two years and four months. As a rule, a party died in 
the bed, and the doctor was sent for to see whether he was 
dead ; he came and pronounced it dead, and then within a short 
time, within a few minutes — within an hour at auy rate, that 
body was taken from the bed and put into a box by the side of 
the bed? A. I don’t know, sir, what time elapsed between 
death and burial. 
Q. Now you are going into time? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. You don’t know whether that was the rule or not? A. 
No. sir. 
Q. You were there two years and don’t know ? Well, that 
must have happened a great many times right in your sight, 
mustn’t it? A. The death of a person? 
Q. Yes; and the putting it into the box? A. No, sir. 
Q. Why not? A. Because it was not my business to see 
that operation performed. 
Q. Not when you had charge of the ward? A. No, sir. 
Q. Whose Avas it? A. It was my business to see the body 
before it was buried, and 1 saw it at different periods after 
death ; sometimes shortly after death, and sometimes 1 was with 
the patient when he died. 
Q. Did you ever see it after it was in the coffin ? A. Yes, 
sir. 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1609 
Q. Now, then, you now swear here upon your oath, that you 
cannot tell whether the practice of the institution was to have, 
within a shorter or a longer time, we won’t say as to the min- 
utes, but as soon as it could be conveniently, the physician called 
to them and then the bod}', without being removed elsewhere, 
put into the coffin from the bed? A. Yes, sir; it was not the 
custom of the physician to see the body before the removal from 
the bed. 
Q. It was not the custom? A. It was not the invariable 
custom. 
Q. What do you mean by invariable? A. I mean that a 
body was not ahvay7s viewed by the physician after death, and 
before the removal from the bedside. 
Q. I am asking what is the usual practice, and you tell me 
there was no invariable practice. I was asking 3 011 whether 
you knew it and I will leave it where it is. You have sworn 
that you don’t know what that practice was? A. If I have 
sworn falsely, sir, it is because I didn’t understand your ques- 
tion. I have said that it was the custom for the physician to 
see the body after death, either in the bed before removal, or 
after and before burial. That is the wa}T it stands. 
Q. I have not even inquired about that. Therefore, if you 
have said it, you have said it as a volunteer. I want to put 
this question to you again, and I don’t care a copper which way 
you answer it, if you will answer it at all; was it not the usual 
custom after the death of a poor person there, that that person, 
after being viewed by a physician, should be put into a coffin 
from the bed? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Then you don’t know. Now we have got right back 
where we were sometime ago, and then I asked yrou the ques- 
tion whether you hadn’t occasion to see that done a good many 
times, and }Tou said “ No.” You mean to leave it there, do 
you? A. I mean to say that many7 bodies were removed to 
coffins without my7 seeing them before they7 were put into the 
coffins. 
Q. How many? A. I cannot say, sir. 
Q. What proportion? A. I cannot say7. 
Q. One-quarter? A. I have nothing to say about the fig- 
ures, sir. 
Q. But about proportion, y7ou have? A. No, sir. 
Q. You won’t say anything about proportion. Now sir, did 
you know while you were there that dead bodies — that the dead 1610 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
were being removed from the dead-house to Boston and else- 
where? A. I never saw it done, sir. 
Q. I didn’t ask you that. Did you know the fact? A. I 
knew from report that it was done, sir. 
Q. Commonly? A. I don’t know how commonly. I know 
that a great many bodies were taken and buried. 
Q. A great many were taken and buried? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you know whether any were dug up? A. I never 
saw any bodies dug up. 
Q. Not whether you saw any bodies taken up, but did you 
hear, while you w'ere there, of graves being robbed? A. I 
heard of graves being robbed, sir. 
Q. That is, the body taken out of it? A. Yes, sir; I 
heard that. 
Q. More than one? A. Yes. 
Q. More than two? A. Yes; I could safely say as many 
as three or four, but beyond that I am not sure. 
Q. In the night-time? A. I don’t remember the time of 
day, sir. 
Q. Well, they didn’t come there and dig them right up in 
the day time, did they? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Well, you know of no watch being set to prevent that? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Never heard of that? Do you know of ail}’ step taken to 
prevent this grave-robbing ; any reward offered, or anything of 
that kind? A. No, sir; only since the opening of this inves- 
tigation. 
Q. I asked while you were there? A. No, sir ; not while 
I was there. 
Q. Very well. Was that kept pretty quiet, that removing 
of bodies away from there? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Don’t know? A. That was not in my department. 
Q. Was it very considerably talked about? A. I never 
heard much said about it, sir. 
Q. Did you ever talk with Thomas J. Marsh about it? A. 
I have. 
Q. While you were there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know whether it was done in the night-time—the 
business, the transportation, I believe, was the name for it? A. 
I think it was done mostly in the night-time. 
Q. Do you know of any bodies going in any particular 
direction? A. I have seen bodies going in the direction of 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1611 
the graveyard ; no other direction, sir; that is, from the dead- 
house. 
Q. I forgot to ask }’ou — I don’t know whether it was before 
your time — did you know of an insane person by the name of 
Charlotte Anderson? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. About what time was she there? A. I cannot say 
exactly. I think I first saw her in the foundling department. 
I probabl}' did see her before, but I don’t have any recollection 
of seeing her before she went there with the other attendants to 
take care of the children. 
Q. Where .did she come from, do you know from what other 
institution? A. I don’t know. She was insane. 
Q. What was the character of her insanity? A. Melan- 
choty insanity. She was quiet at first, and after she had been 
in the foundling department, where she had the care of children, 
she became violent and was removed. 
Q. She was having the care of children in the foundling 
department and after awhile she became violent? A. Yes 
sir. 
Q. Do you know, — won’t you look into the register and see 
if you can find when Charlotte Anderson came in? 
Mr. Brown. Look in 1876, about the month of August. 
Q. Did she die while you were there? A. I don’t remem- 
ber, but it is my impression she did. 
Q. She was a young person ? 
Mr. Brown. [Producing a book. ] There is a record of 
the case if you want it. 
Gov. Butler. There is no number there. As I don’t have 
the person, you know, that made it, the record is not admissible. 
Mr. Brown. I guess you have. 
The Witness. Made by Dr. Marston. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know who made it. 
Q. ( By Gov. Butler. ) She was a young person, wasn’t 
she? A. My impression is she was; between twenty and 
twenty-five. 
[Recess.] 
Q. She was a young woman, was she not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Quite young ; saj' 20? A. 1 should think she was be- 
tween 20 and 30 — nearer 20. 
Q. Nearer 20? A. Possibly. 1612 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. She was in the almshouse when you came there, as an 
insane person, wasn’t she? A. I don’t know. 
Q. You don’t know? A. No, sir. 
Q. Didn’t you know she had been there for some time? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. No? A. I might have known it at the time. 
Q. What? A. 1 might have known it at the time, but 1 
don’t now. 
Q. She was a harmless insane person, — quite, rather a 
good-looking girl, wasn’t she? A. No, sir; she was not. 
Q. She was not? A. My recollections of her are that she 
was one of the so-called harmless insane. She was not very 
buxom. 
Q. What? A. She was not good-looking, as you had sug- 
gested ; her skin was very dark. 
Q. She was a dark-skin girl? A Dark-skin girl; I think 
she was a Swede. 
Q. Did you understand she came there from Taunton ? A. 
I don’t know anything about where she came from. 
Q. Well, we will find that out directly. She was employed 
in taking care of the children in the foundling room, foundling 
ward? A. Yes, sir; that is where 1 saw the most of her. 
Q. Was that soon after you got there? A. I don’t remem- 
ber. 
Q. When she became violent, was she found to be in a family 
way ? A. I don’t remember that, sir. My impression is that 
she became violent after she was delivered. 
Q. Well, at some time while she was employed taking care 
of the foundlings she became in a family wa}’? A. I don’t 
remember that, sir; I think that it was only after she became a 
mother that she went to the foundling department. 
Q. What was she doing before that? A. I don’t remem- 
ber. 
Q. She became a mother? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. Well, did you attend the delivery of the child? A. I did 
not. 
Q. About how long after you got there before she became a 
mother? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Well, let us see if this tallies with her. [Referring to a 
book.] “ Charlotte Anderson, Sweden, T. L. H,”— what is 
that? From Taunton lunatic hospital. “ February 20, 1875; 
and died June 3, 1877.” Came in 1875,— February, 1875, and 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1613 
she became with child, and that child was delivered about, some- 
time,— you came there iu Jul}’, 187G,— some months after you 
came there? A. Yes; 1 think so. 
Q. And the child was a living one? It was born alive? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. Born alive. 
Q. And, up to the time of the birth of the child, there never 
had been any symptoms of violence on her part, so far as you 
know? A. I don’t remember any. 
Q. You don’t remember any? A. No, sir. 
Q. And, certainly, her case was a peculiar one. You would 
be likely to remember it, wouldn’t ? A. I only remember, 
in a general way, about the woman. 
Q. I understand ; in a general wa}'; but, then, it was a pecu- 
liar case, wasn't it, and you would be likely to remember that 
case, if aiy? A. All cases are peculiar, sir. 
Q. What? How? A. Peculiar in what respect, sir? 
Well, don’t you see ary respect in which that case is a 
peculiar one, or wasn’t it? A. Having a child at the institu- 
tion ; in that respect it was peculiar ; yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. In that respect it was peculiar; is that 
what 3Tou mean ? 
Q. No, sir ; I will tell you what 1 mean. Here was a young 
girl,— how old does the record show her to be? 
Mr. Records. Thirty-one. 
Gov. Butler. The record shows,— here was a girl who came 
from the Taunton insane asylum, quiet, melanchoty, and was 
an insane patient; she came there in 1875, in February, and 
was quiet, interfered with nobody; and along some time after 
duty 26, some considerable time afterwards, she was delivered 
of a child. Don’t you call that a peculiar case in that institu- 
tion, or was it a general case? A. Well, I should say it was 
peculiar. 
Q. Peculiar ; ver}' well. Now, being a peculiar case, wouldn’t 
you be likety to remember about her? A. Not necessarily; 
onl}’, as I have stated, in a general way, 1 remember her. 
Q. Recollect in a general way. Then, the next thing that 
happened was that she was put in to take care, having become 
a mother; she was put in with a living child,—how long.did the 
child live? A. 1 don’t remember. 
Q. Which died first, the child or the mother? A. That 1 
don’t remember, sir. 1614 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Had she a child of her own to take care of when she was 
put into your foundling department? A. She took care of her 
own child and assisted in the care of the others. 
Q. Then she was taking care of her own child while she was 
in the foundling department? A. Yes. 
Q. Yes; and you can’t tell me how long that child lived. 
Did that child have the usual fate ; die pretty soon? A. I don’t 
remember how long it lived, sir. 
Q. Well, did it die within three months? A. 1 can’t say, 
sir. 
Q. Within two? A. I don’t remember whether it lived two 
months or six. 
Q. Two months or six ; or whether it died within one? Do 
you remember anything the matter with the child? Perhaps 
you have that memory. A. I remember,— no, I don’t remem- 
ber what was the matter with the child, aside from — 
Q. Died from some cause? A. Aside from its being the 
child of an insane woman. 
Q. What? A. • That is all 1 know. 
Q. Died from being the child of an insane woman? A. No, 
sir ; I didn’t say that. Aside from her being the child of an 
insane woman, I don’t know what was the cause of the child’s 
death. 
Q. Now, is that any cause of a child’s death,— being the 
child of an insane woman? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Then why did you put in aside from that you didn’t know 
what the cause was? Now was it before or after her child died 
that she became violent? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. What? A. I know this, sir; that she was violent after 
her child was born, but whether she was violent before I don’t 
know. 
Q. That is not the point. She was violent after the child 
was born and after the child died, perhaps. The question was, 
was she violent before or after her child died, — the birth of 
the child is not the point, —after the child died. She had a live 
child and she was put into that foundling hospital and she be- 
came violent, — now, I want to know if you knew enough about 
the patients which you had under your charge to know whether 
that woman became violent before or after her child died? A. 
I don’t remember, sir. I know that she was removed from the 
foundling department because of her violence. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1615 
Q. I understand. A. But whether it was before or after 
the child died, I don’t know ; don’t remember. 
Q. The reason why I asked you, I should suppose yon would 
remember, — although you told me you had forgot a great deal 
since you left there, — the reason I asked you was, she was not 
violent until she was got with child by somebod}” in the institu- 
tion, and then she was not violent till after her child was born ; 
then she was put into the foundling asylum and had her own 
child to take care of, l suppose, — an insane woman herself she 
would not go there, — and then she becomes violent. Nowt 
what I want to know is whether this poor insane woman became 
violent at grief over the loss of her child, or whether the vio- 
lence became prior; and,*I should think, as a physician, it would, 
be a thing that would have called your attention. A. Well, 
sir, I don’t remember. 
Q. It did mine, because I thought I might see a cause. She 
had always been quiet and melancholy till this thing happened ; 
she still remained quiet and melancholy, so far as you sav, till 
her child might have been killed and she taken violent from that. 
That didn’t strike your attention at all? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you remember her sister’s coming to see her? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever know her sister attempting to come to see 
her? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did the superintendent, when anybody called to see a 
party in the insane hospital, did the superintendent usually go 
in with them into the insane hospital, or one of the nurses, or 
one of the doctors? A. Sometimes the nurse, sometimes a 
doctor. 
Q. Yes: but I am asking whether the superintendent? A. 
Sometimes he went, I presume. 
Q. What? A. I don’t remember ever seeing him go. 
Q. Don’t remember ever seeing him go? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, was it any part of the duty of the assistant super- 
intendent to visit the insane ward, the women’s ward? A. I 
don’t know. 
Q. Don’t know whether that was a part of his duty or not? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Don’t know enough about the institution to know that ? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Been there two years in charge of the ward? A. I 
knew my business, 1616 
CH A RITA BLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[ A pr. 
Q. You knew your business at the time, but have forgotten 
most of it since ; that is the way, is it? A. I have forgotten 
a good many of the details, sir. 
Q. Yes, apparently. Now. then, can you tell whether the 
woman died before the child? A. No, sir. 
Q. Can’t even tell whether the child outlived its mother? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you see her in her last sickness? A. I am not 
positive, sir ; I think not. 
Q. Who did see her? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Do you know whether she died in violent struggles or 
not? A. No, sir. 
Q. Don’t know anything about it; you were there when she 
died? A. I was in the institution. 
Q. In the institution ; and do you know whether you were in 
the ward, had charge of the ward at the time she. died, where 
she did die? A. L cannot say, positively, sir; I think I did 
not. I did not have charge of the ward. 
Q. Did she die in the hospital, or in the insane ward? A. 
I don’t know. 
Q. Then how do 37ou know whether you had charge of it or 
not? A. Simply because I don’t remember. 
Q. You know because you don’t remember? Well, fortu- 
nately, we shall have somebody to trace this matter beyond. I 
want to ascertain, sir, what is the evidence, — what was the 
appearance of the children who had sj’philis ; how did they ex- 
hibit it. — in the e}’es, generally? A. Well, there were 
various symptoms. The prevailing symptoms were what is 
called snuffles ; peculiar condition of the mucus membrane of the 
nose, — swollen nose; and the eyes were congested. 
Q. And projected? A. The lids. • 
Q. Sometimes called syphilitic ophthalmia? A. Yes. sir; 
but there are different kinds of diseases of the eyes, —syphilitic 
diseases of the eyes. 
Q. But only one kind of syphilitic ophthalmia. I take it, 
specifically. Now, that was perfectly obvious to anybody, — 
those who were accustomed to see it? A. Yes; anybody who 
was read in the matter. 
Q. A person who had been accustomed to see it. without 
reading, would be better able to see it by seeing than any one 
would by reading? A. Yes. 
Q. Then, any decently taught person about children and 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1617 
the diseases of children — had practice — would readily detect 
these children with ophthalmia? A. Specific ophthalmia? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. Why not? A. A casual observer —- 
Q. What? A. A casual observer could not tell. 
Q. T didn’t ask a casual observer; don’t you know 1 didn’t? 
I asked any person decently skilled in children’s diseases by 
custom, and hetter that than by reading, as you and I agree, — 
could they detect a child having that disease? A. A person 
skilled in diagnoses could; yes, sir; a person accustomed to 
seeing these cases. 
Q. Skilled in diagnoses. A. A person accustomed to see- 
ing these cases. 
Q. To seeing these cases; yes. Diagnosis is a long Greek 
word, but it don’t mean much, after all. It means only know- 
ing through the symptoms, doesn’t it; so there is no witchery in 
that. Now, take the other cases of diseases ; any person ac- 
customed to babies at all, would know whether they had chronic 
diarrhoea? A. They would know about the symptom, — the 
one or two symptoms ; but as to the cause — 
Q. T don’t ask about the cause of the diarrhoea, — whether it 
was from eating green apples or cucumbers ; I was asking of 
the fact. Wouldn’t they know it? A. Yes, sir; in a general 
way, a person would make the correct — 
Q. There would be generally a way of finding it out, I 
should think, if you can find out anything. Now, what other 
diseases did you say you found there in the twenty-one? A. 
Consumption. 
Q. Tell that pretty easily. A. Generally. Inanition is 
another. 
Q. That is, they would starve, —be emaciated? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Be emaciated? A. Yes, sir; waste away. 
Q. That they could tell easily ; but what they could not tell 
about that is whether good food would bring them up, unless 
they looked into the causes of inanition, by dissection, and 
otherwise? A. No ; a person could not make a positive — 
Q. For instance you and I see that a child is emaciated,— 
we see that, for some reason, it is starving; now, can we tell, 
by looking at that child, whether good food and good treatment 
may not bring it up, or whether it would be impossible that it 1618 
Cl 1ARIT ABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
should he brought up, — there might he both of those cases? 
A. Well, sir, we cannot tell, positively. 
Q. We should say it would he doubtful what would be the 
result with that child? A. Because there may be other under- 
lying causes. 
Q. There may be others, but that we should see. Now, bow' 
many did you find diseased in the twenty-one ; all of them? A. 
I think I said twelve. [Referring to memorandum.] Twelve. 
Q. Twelve out of twenty-one; then you will take back 
your testimony of yesterday that they were all sick? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Why not? A. Because they were all sick. 
Q. Oh, they were all sick ; but then you didn’t find any 
evidence of it. Let me see that paper, will you? [Witness 
handed him memorandum.] July 11, 1862. [Referring to the 
paper.] You didn’t go there till the twenty-second, did you? 
A. Twenty-second of July ? 
Q. Yes. A. 1876? 
Q. Yes. A. I got there before that. 
Q. Before July? A. Before that time, — before the 
twenty-second. 
Q. What time was it? We understood here the twenty- 
second ; it so got down. What date did you go into the 
foundling business? A. 1 don’t know what date 1 went to 
the foundling department. 
Q. Did you go into it as soon as you got to the institution? 
A. I don’t remember, sir; I said, yesterday, I didn’t remem- 
ber whether 1 went there the first three months or not. 
Q. The first what? A. The first three months ; whether I 
had exclusive charge. 
Q. Whether you took charge for three months. Now, I 
find on this paper, you go back to July 11, 1866, and put down 
inanition 10, 2, — 12, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir; 12. 
Q. Twelve cases. Now, did you treat all these infants? A. 
1 don’t remember whether I did or not. 
Q. Did you find by your book that you did? A. I find by 
my books that I made the record of death. 
Q. You made the record of death, and simply reckoned inani- 
tion. Then, this is a record of what they died of? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then, they might have come there well, and starved to 
death for aught you know ? A. Those that I had charge of, 
sir, didn’t enter the institution well, 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1619 
Q. But you had charge of all the foundlings, and, for 
aught your record shows, they might have come there wrell and 
starved to death? A. Well, sir, I might have taken charge of 
foundlings who entered before my term of service began at that 
department. 
Q. You might have, I know ; but did you? A. I don’t — 
Q. Don’t know? A. Yes, sir; I know I did. ' 
Q. You now know you did? A. I know 1 took charge of 
iufants who entered previous to my service in that department. 
Q. Did you take charge before you were appointed? A. 
Before I was appointed to that department? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. Before you were appointed to the institution ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Very well; now we won’t have any difficulty about get- 
ting the date of your appointment; there is a certainty about 
that, you know. A. Positive. 
Q. Which we will demonstrate. Now., then, all the book 
shows is that so rfiany died of inanition ; have no mem- 
ory upon that subject except what you find in the hook. Now, 
you find chronic, — I don’t read the words, sir? A. Enteritis,— 
inflammation of the bowels. 
Q. Chronic inflammation of the bowels, there were 3 ; 
phthisis, 1 ; syphilis, 5. And then we have got April, 1877, to 
October, 1877, and October, 1877, to April, 1878, and Novem- 
ber, 1878. What dates are those? [Referring to the memoran- 
da.] A. Those are the dates that the books cover. 
Q. The books cover? A. That is a record of the deaths. 
Q. Now, then, is this anything more than that there were so 
many that died, — 1 of phthisis, 3 of inflammation of the 
bowels, and 5 of syphilis ? A. Those here, — that is a record 
of the cases that died under my care ; others died, the record of 
which is in the book. 
Q. The record of which is in the book? A. And does not 
show on that. 
Q. But this is not the record of what they had when they 
came in, but the record of what they had when they went out? 
A. Yes; as I said yesterday, there was no record of what 
ailed them when they came in. 
Q. You are not quite correct in that; there is, sometimes. 
A. 1 mean I have none. 
Q. You don’t know; very good. Then, all you produce 1620 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
here, you have gone, and out of the large number of children, 
some over a hundred, that were in the institution while you 
were there, — you have found the cause of death to be, of inan- 
ition 12, of phthisis 1, of inflammation of the bowels 3, and of 
syphilis, f>. Now, let us go to another thing. Are those all 
foundling children or other children? A. Foundlings. 
Q. All foundlings; what is there in the record that shows us 
that? A. In the stub is the word “condition” ; against that 
is the word kt foundling,” showing that they were foundlings 
and not other children. 
Q. Then we have got, 12 and 3 are 15 ; 6 and 15 are 21 
children ; and that is the record of the death of all those that 
you can find? A. All I can find ; yes, sir. 
Q. All you can find, but how they were when they came in 
in you don’t know, except you swear they were sick? A. Yes, 
sir; I will swear they were sick, but 1 don’t remember, i 
haven’t the means of knowing — 
Q. Every one of.them was sick? A. YYrhat ailed them. 
Q. You know that every child that came* in there as a found- 
ling was sick? A. \res sir. 
Q. Yes; you so swear. Now, sir, did you ever go to 
Chardon Street and examine these books? A. Did 1 ever, 
sir ? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I should be very glad, Governor, to have you 
put them in evidence. If you don’t put them in I shall. 
Mr. Mellen. I was going to interrupt right here. 
Gov. Butler. Then all this trouble we had, and the vote, 
were got up simply that there might be a flourish of trumpets 
about it? 
Mr. Brown. 1 have a woman here who knows all about the 
record and I am going to put her on as the next witness. 
Gov. Butler. All right. If she swears down the record 1 
can’t help it. I will put the books in, then, with your leave. 
We might have saved a good deal of valuable time. She won’t 
swear the legs otf a brass pot, I guess. 
Mr. Mellen. Do I understand there is any objection, now, 
Mr. Chairman? 
The Chairman. If Mr. Brown consents to Lave the books 
come in, there is no objection. 
Mr. Mellen. Do Mr. Brown and the chairman run the com- 
mittee? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
1621 
The Chairman. It is for Mr. Brown to say whether he 
agrees ; if he agrees, that ends it. 
Mr. MEllen. Does Mr. Brown run the committee? I 
understand the committee voted they could not be put in. 
The Chairman. I know the committee so voted. 
Mr. Mellen. Now, if it is Mr. Brown’s pleasure, they can 
go in ? 
The Chairman. No, I should object to the books being con- 
sidered as evidence unless they were proved in some way, even 
if Mr. Brown otters to put them in. 
Gov. Butler. They are not proved any more now than they 
were before. 
Mr. Mellen. Certainly not. 
The Chairman. I know they are not, now ; but if you both 
agree the books are in, then they are in. 
Mr. Brown. I agree that they may be put in for any pur- 
pose for which he sees fit to use them. 
Mr. Mellen. 1 move we reconsider the vote, and I propose, 
after that — 
The Chairman. 1 supposed so ; I supposed you came in for 
that purpose. 
Mr. Mel len. Exactly ; that is, 1 came in for the purpose of 
preventing the chairman or anybody else keeping out evidence 
that should be in, by reason of having happened to have a major- 
ity by accident at the time. Now, sir, I move that the vote be 
reconsidered. 
The Chairman. What is the object of reconsidering the 
vote if the books are in? 
Mr. Mellen. Because this committee ought to do business 
in a matter of fact, business-like way. We have already voted 
not to admit them ; now, in order that they may be admitted 
legally, we should reconsider that vote. It seems to me we 
must conform to the practice of deliberative bodies. 
The Chairman. If they are in by agreement why should we 
go through this form of reconsidering? 
Mr. Mellen. To see whether they shall be put in or not. 
It is not for you, or for the counsel for the institution to deter- 
mine ; it is for this committee. You are assuming to act. 
The Chairman. If the couusel on both sides agree to put in 
anything, I think it is in. 
Mr. Murphy. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to put Mr. 1622 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mellen’s motion, and then discuss whether it is right and 
legal ? 
Mr. Mellen. 1 think so. I think the chairman should not 
insist on running this committee as he pleases. 
The Chairman. I don’t insist on anything. I think mem- 
bers who are habitually absent ought not to be extremely tech- 
nical or critical. 
Mr. Muhpiiy. I ask that Mr. Mellen’s motion be put. 
Mr. Mellen. It is very dangerous for any fair man who 
don’t agree with you to be absent, because you are very apt to 
take advantage of their absence to confirm your position. 
The Chairman. I deny it, and 1 am willing to leave it to 
the governor. 
Mr. Mellen. Eight here, if you talk about technicalities. 
I believe you sought the position of acting chairman of the 
committee for this very purpose, and I deny your right to act as 
you have. 
Mr. Learnard. I call the gentleman to order. 
Mr. Mellen. I am willing to give you all you wish of 
this. 
The Chairman. The motion is to reconsider the vote reject- 
ing the Chardon Street books. 
Mr. Gilmore. Before that is put, I want to know what 
evidence is produced or can be produced to show what author- 
ity these reports were made upon. My objection is the same 
as before. 
Mr. Brown. I have a lady here who has been connected 
with the Home, as I understand, for about eleven years. She had 
a long interview with His Excellency, yesterday and I shall pro- 
duce her here immediately, as soon as I have an opportunity, 
and she will explain how that book is kept. 
Mi-. Gilmore. Then I am ready to vote for the admission. 
Mr. Brown. This book, as I understand, is kept by one of 
the matrons of the institution, and not by any physician. 
The Chairman. I understand the books are in by agree- 
ment. I think the motion to reconsider will be unanimous. 
Mr. Mellen. I call for the vote Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Those in favor of reconsidering the vote — 
Mr. Chamberlain. Before this is put, Mr. Chairman, I desire 
to say that, as the reason why I voted not to admit the books 
was because it was not to be shown us whether a competent 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1623 
person at that time had charge of the record, now that being 
shown — 
Gov. Butler. It is not shown yet, sir ; you have only got a 
promise. You know it ina}’ not be kept. 
Mr. Brown. I will keep it. 
Gov. Butler. Perhaps. 
Mr. Gilmore. There is a good deal here on promises. 
Mr. Brown. If you don’t get through examining this witness 
till July, this one is coming on. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I don’t propose to discuss this question 
with the counsel on either side, either for or against the Com- 
monwealth. I wish to say that I said before this vote was 
taken, if there could be somebody sent down to the institution 
and some one brought here so it might be shown, I should be 
willing to admit the books. I am now. 
The Chairman. I mean to say this, too ; I said, and my only 
objection was, that we wanted to know who made the record 
that a child was diseased. That is my only objection to the 
books. The parties now agreeing the books should come in, I 
certainly have no objection to the books coming in. 
Mr. Chester. I have no objection to having the books come 
in and I don’t think it is necessary to reconsider our vote. The 
objections that actuated me in my vote have been explained, — 
that is, the witness is here to identify the books and the records, 
— and I think it is not necessary to reconsider our vote. I am 
willing the books should come in. 
Mr. Risteen. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that is very 
proper the vote should be reconsidered and the books admitted. 
Gov. Butler. I have nothing to do with this part of it, you 
understand ; I have not altered my position at all. 
The Chairman. I understood the Governor to say he never 
should offer the books again. 
Gov. Butler, Ifliave not. 
The Chairman. No ; I understand you agree— 
Gov. Butler. Not till this vote is reconsidered. 
The Chairman. Now, I understand you agree to have them 
n. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me; I make no agreements. I am 
not going to condone what I believe to be an outrage, with great 
respect. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, I think this is a side issue ; now 
I have made a motion — 1624 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Murphy. I second the motion. 
The Chairman. Very well, I will put it. 
[The motion to reconsider the vote by7 which the books were 
rejected was carried unanimously.] 
The Chairman. The question now is on admitting the books. 
Mr. Brown. I can only make the promise, — of course it is 
not good for much, — but here is the lady sitting here, and if 
His Excellency will ever conclude with this witness so I can get 
a chance, and she doesn’t die before that time, I am going to put 
her on. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t propose that my side of this case shall 
be managed for me by anybody. I make such offers of evidence 
as I think proper. If the committee reject them they stand 
rejected and they take the responsibility, and not I. if the 
committee vote to have this put in I shall, of course, obey the 
vote of the committee as I obeyed the vote when they said they 
should not go in. 
The Chairman. I was ready to vote before to admit the 
books on the promise that somebody should come up and testi- 
fy as to who made the entries, and I am ready to vote so now. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t believe evidence is admissible upon 
promises or bargains. It is either admissible or is not. 
Mr. Brown. I will, so far as I am concerned, agree that this 
examination may be suspended and the lady produced imme- 
diately. 
Gov. Butler. I make no agreement; I insist upon my rights, 
if I have any7; if not, I will take only what I can get. 
Mr. Learnard. I should like to know, before the motion is 
put to admit the books, at whose request they7 are to be put into 
the case. 
The Chairman. I don’t know. 
Mr. Mellen. I move that the books be admitted. I sup- 
pose that question is open. 
The Chairman. The question is whether the books shall be 
admitted. I presume they are offered by somebody. 
Mr. Mellen. The status of the case, as I understand it, is 
just this : A motion was made for the admittance of the books ; 
the motion was voted down ; we have just voted to reconsider 
that vote, and the motion before the committee now is the orig- 
inal motion. 
The Chairman. Whether the books shall be admitted. 
Mr. Mellen, Yes, 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1625 
The Chairman. Now, somebody asks who otfers the books. 
Mr. Mellen. I proposed myself the raising of that point. 
The Chairman. I supposed Mr. Learnard has as much right 
to raise a question as any other member of the committee. 
Mr. Mellen. Has just as much right to raise a question, if 
the purpose of it is to further this investigation ; but if it is the 
mere matter of a quibble for the sake of confusing or offending 
or bothering anybody, or putting anybody to a disadvantage, 
I say he nor anybody else hasn’t a right to raise a question. I- 
say the matter is before the committee. A motion has been 
made for the admission of the books and it ought to be acted 
upon. 
The Chairman. That is the motion; I suppose it is de- 
batable, if any member of the committee desires to debate it, 
or the counsel. 
Mr. Learnard. The books, originally, were presented by His 
Excellency the governor ; I want to know, when I vote on the 
question, whether I am voting on his proposition to admit the 
books. I shall vote to admit the books, but I want to know 
who puts them into the case. 
Gov. Butler. All I can say is, the books have been voted 
out, and until the committee vote they are competent evidence, 
1 sha’n’t offer them again. I have obeyed, and shall continue 
to obey, the order of the committee. The matter has been be- 
fore you and your first vote has been reconsidered. Now, I 
understand that the proper conduct of parliamentary commit- 
tees, which follow the rules of their own body, require, before 
anything further is done, that there shall be an actual vote upon 
the question. 
The Chairman. But that is debatable, like any other ques- 
tion. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t want to debate it. I only want to say 
I make no bargains. 
Mr. Brown. I will simply say, Mr. Chairman, that, for the 
purpose of hastening the matter, if there can’t anybody else be 
found who will father the offer of the books, I will do it myself. 
The Chairman. You offer the books? 
Mr. Brown. I do. 
Gov. Butler. It is not his province to offer the books. 
Mr. Mellen. I object to his offering them. 
The Chairman. Mr. Learnard asked the question — 
Mr, Mellen. Oh, if it suits Mr. Learnard — 1626 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. Mr. Learnard asked the question and I sup- 
pose he is entitled to an answer. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I should like to know whether it is in- 
tended to show whether the person who kept these books,— 
whether the system is such at the institution, and the person 
keeping these books was competent to judge of the physical 
condition of these children. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t propose to show that, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I should sav, as to that, Mr. Chairman, that I 
shall produce the person who kept a part of the record. She 
will be able to say who kept the other part and what her duties 
were in the institution. As to her qualifications in all particu- 
lars, I cannot show by this witness ; but this witness can show 
what her own qualifications are, and of course that will explain 
the part of the record which she has made. And I will have 
the other lad}- here, if possible, to explain what her qualifica- 
tions are, so that it will be seen — what I ultimately expect to 
prove—that that record is absolutely worthless for the purpose 
for which His Excellency offered it in the first place. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Brown will prove what he can prove 
when he gets read}'. 
Mr. Brown. When I get a chance. 
Gov. Butler. At the proper time. I want these books for 
cross-examining the witness. I have offered them as books, 
and for no other reason under heaven than as a public record. 
This committee voted they should not go in unless somebody 
told something about something else. I didn’t believe that was 
right. The committee voted that it was right, and I loyally £ 
bowed to the vote and went on with something else. Now, a 
member of the committee has moved to reconsider, and the com- 
mittee has voted to reconsider. Whenever the committee vote 
that I may offer the books, taking that vote out of the way, then 
I shall offer them again. I said then, and I say again, that I 
never will add anything to these books in order to get them in 
evidence. 
[Mr. Putney called for the question, and the committee voted 
to admit the books.] 
Testimony of Francis B. Records {recalled). 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, Mr. Records, I will ask you 
to aid me on these books, as you have aided me before in this 
matter. Have you been over them? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1627 
Q. In the first place, covering the period from July 22, 1876, 
down to November 6, 1878, when we know this witness was 
there, I would like to ask you how many children were sent to 
Tewksbury by these books from the Chardon Street Home? A. 
Seventy-one. 
Q. Have you been over so as to get the record of their con- 
dition, as appears b}' the books? A. 1 have. 
Q. Won’t you give the condition of those infants bj' that 
record? A. Doubtful, two; diseased, one; condition not 
stated, one ; good, five ; fair, thirty-five ; feeble, twenty-seven ; 
total, seventy-one. 
Q. Now, have you examined the record and found those 
children that are on the Chardon Street record and on the 
record of the Tewksbury almshouse? A. Certain of them; 
those that I have read, down to twenty-three. 
Q. Now, sir, how do you find it in regard to their 
dying? Whether as many of the good ones died as of the bad? 
A. Well, for instance, here is one doubtful and one feeble; 
they are both admitted on the same day and they died on the 
same day — died about two weeks after. 
Q. How about the average length of life, so far as you have 
gone? A. I should not say it was more than three weeks. 
Some of them live a month and some two weeks ; I should not 
suppose the average was over three weeks. 
Gov. Butler. You will finish it out and I will put in the 
paper to-morrow. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now. Dr. Putney, how were those 
foundlings brought there? Alwaj’s with a woman nurse? A. 
I don’t know ; 1 didn’t see all who were brought there. 
Q. Did you see any of them? A. I did. 
Q. Those that came from Chardon Street, did the}T come 
with a woman nurse? A. I don’t know where they came from, 
but some came with a woman nurse. 
Q. Did they come with an officer and a woman? A. L don’t 
know. 
Q. When they came there did you see them ? A. I re- 
member seeing foundlings there in the custody of women ; aside 
from that I don’t know whether an officer came with them. 
Q. Did you ever see them come solely in the custody of a 
man? A. I don’t remember. 
Testimony of George E. Putney {resumed). 1628 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, sir, with this record before you of how these chil- 
dren came, of how these children started from the Chardon 
Street Home, are you willing to swear that every one of them 
was sick? A. I am willing to swear that all the children that 
entered the foundling department while I had charge of it were 
sick ; whether it was half of that seventy-one, or a quarter, I 
don’t know. 
Q. Sick when they entered? A. Sick when they came 
into my charge. 
Q. I think that is all, sir, on that point. Nowy if I can 
have that book, I will ask about that matter which I have tried 
two or three times to get at. Have 3Tou children, doctor? A. 
I have one child, sir. 
Q. How old, about? A. 1 think four 3?ears old in August. 
Q. Now, can tell me what was in the box — the one 
barrel of merchandise that went to Exeter, to Mrs. M. A. Davis, 
150 pounds weight? A. No, sir. 
Q. Can 3?ou tell me about this item : Dec. 20, 1878, Mrs. 
Kate L. Atwood, Exeter, one hat-rack, 250 pounds weight? 
A. I don’t know an3dhing about it, sir. 
Q. Can you now tell me about the box, 150 pounds weight, 
paid at the station sent from, to Charles E. Atwood, Exeter? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Can you tell me what was in all the four cases and 
one trunk of merchandise which went on the 27th of November, 
1878, to Reading; freight paid from the station sent from? 
A. I cannot sa3", sir. 
Q. Can you tell me what was in them? A. I don’t know 
as I can tell you everything, sir; but the principal bulk, or 
principal weight, was books. 
Q. Now, will you tell me whether 3Tou received a baby crib? 
A. I did. 
Q. Weighing 400 pounds? A. No, sir; it did not weigh 
that. 
Q. Well, this is the record. Was there anything In that 
box but a bal)3* crib? A. I think so; a mattress and a 
pillow. 
Q. A mattress and pillow. Anj’thing else? A. I don’t 
remember aiything else. 
Q. Will you swear there was not anything else? A. No, 
sir; I would not swear there was not anything else; there 
might have been. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1629 
Q. Don’t tell me what there might have been. There might 
have been inmates’ dresses, you know? A. No, sir; that was 
impossible. 
Q. Why? We will agree, for the sake of being good- 
natured. that it was improbable, but why was it impossible? A. 
Because, sir, if there had been anything of the kind, I should 
have remembered it. 
Q. Now, then, will you tell me, do you know about how 
much would that baby crib, pillow and mattress weigh ? A. 
Well, sir, I think possibly forty or fifty pounds. 
Q. Yes, I should think very likely. A. And the case 
would weigh nearly as much ; it was a skeleton case. 
Q. And you remember it was a skeleton case ? A. Ido. 
Q. That came from Tewksbury? A. I presume it did, sir. 
Q. Didn’t you know it did? A. I didn’t see it start from 
there, sir. 
Q. Did you expect it when it came ? A. I expected a crib 
from Tewksbury. 
Q. Did you expect this crib? A. I expected a crib from 
Tewksbury, and I presume that was the one. 
Mr. Learnard. I submit that we have been here three hours, 
and that it is time to adjourn. 
Mr. Brown. I would like, if the committee desire it, to call 
the lady who is present to testify in regard to these books. 
Gov. Butler. You shall have the books and the list. 
Mr. Brown. Have 3'ou completed with Dr. Putney? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, unless something occurs to me that I 
don’t think of now. 
Mr. Brown. If the committee don’t desire to adjourn at 
once I can finish with Dr. Putney to-day. Dr. Putney is here 
at great personal inconvenience, on account of his business. 
Gov. Butler. It is half-past twelve now, sir, and I have 
made arrangement of my business and directed people to come 
here at a little past twelve. 
The Chairman. I am ready to adjourn. I want to ask Dr. 
Putney one or two questions if the committee don’t object. 
Perhaps we had better adjourn. 
Adjourned to meet ou Thursday, May 24, at 9.30 a. m. 1630 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
THIRTY-SEVENTH HEARING. 
Thursday, May 24. 
The Committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
George E. Putney {recalled). 
Q. Dr. Putney, His Excellency questioned you yesterday in 
regard to your knowledge of bodies which were taken from the 
grave after burial. Will you state the circumstances ; whether 
you ever knew of any bod}r that was taken from the grave after 
burial, except .for the purpose of being sent to friends? A. I 
never knew of any bod}T being taken for any other purpose — 
from the grave, you say ? 
Q. Yes. Now, Doctor, you have spoken in regard to those 
foundlings, and I want you to state definitely when, after they 
reached the hospital, were they examined ; that is, so far as 
your experience went. A. So far as I was concerned, they 
were examined shortly after they entered. It was the custom 
for the nurse in attendance to notify me that one or more 
foundlings had arrived, and at my earliest opportunity, as a rule, 
I went to the department to attend to them. 
Q. Now, you say at the earliest opportunity. A. Well, 
when other business would allow. 
Q. Would that be on the same da}’? A. The same day ; 
probably within an hour or two. 
Mr. Brown. Now, your Excellency, will you allow me to 
see that little statement prepared by Mr. Records. 
Gov. Butler. Send down for Mr. Records, and tell him to 
bring up the statement and the records of the Chardon Street 
Home. 
Mr. Brown. I will pass to something else. 
Q. Something has been said to you, on cross-examination, 
in regard to the manner in which Capt. Marsh lived at his table. 
I want to know how he lived during the period 3’ou were there, 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1631 
compared with the manner in which you live now, — that is, as 
to quality of food, and style of living? A. Well, I should say, 
sir, that the living—that there was no material difference. 
Q. Between what? A. Between my living at present — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I object, because then we will 
have to go into an examination of how he lives now. 
[A question, “Do you live extravagantly now?” with the 
answer made by witness, on objection of Gov. Butler, was ordered 
by the chairman to be stricken out of the record.] 
Q. Doctor, I want you to explain to this committee fully what 
you mean by the term inanition. A. It is a condition of the 
digestive organs that prevents the assimilation of food. 
Q. So that the body of the patient so affected is not 
nourished in all its parts? A. Precisely. 
Q. And the food continues through the canals of the body 
without having its nutritive qualities taken out? A. The food 
passes through the intestinal track without all of its, or with 
only a small portion of its nutritive properties, abstracted and 
taken into the system. 
Q. So that a child dying from inanition would present the 
appearance of being very poor in flesh, and yet its stomach and 
intestines might have a large amount of food? A. Precisely. 
Q. Is that so? A. That is so. 
[Exhibit and record-books of Chardon Street Home produced 
by Mr. Records.] 
Mr. Brown. [Referring to the exhibit.] Is this the one we 
had yesterday, Mr. Records? 
Mr. Records. No ; that includes the one of yesterday. This 
is completed. 
Gov. Butler. It is complete clear through now. Suppose 
we formally put it into the case? 
Mr. Brown. It strikes me you have got this a little different 
from what you had it yesterday-. Where is your recapitulation? 
You have got nothing under the head of “Good,” and no reca- 
pitulation. 
Mr. Records. This is simply a continuation of the first 
column. 
Mr. Brown. It don’t appear whether it is the same or some- 
thing else. 
Gov. Butler. Put over that that it is continued. This, now, 
is the completed record, the completed examination, which Mr. 
Records had not finished yesterday, and which we will now put 1632 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
in. He went down twenty-three names yesterday you will re- 
member. 
Mr. Brown. And, as 1 understand your Excellency, this is 
a complete statement and analysis of the record of the Chardon 
Street Home from July 22, 1876, to November 6, 1878? 
Gov. Butler. Inclusive ; which was the time during which 
Dr. Putney was at Tewksbury. 
Mr. Records. That is, compared with the record at Tewksbury. 
Mr. Brown. That is to say ; here is a record, No. 239, that 
is tlie number at the Chardon Street Home ; the date July 22, 
1876, shows the time when the foundling was received at the 
Chardon Street Home, and the date July 25, 1876, shows the date 
when the child reached the almshouse at Tewksbury; and the 
number at the right is the register number at the almshouse? 
Mr. Records. Taken from the register at Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. It takes the child as he was recorded at the 
Chardon Street Home, places him in Tewksbuty, and gives his 
record there. 
Mr. Brown. I think if the committee has no objection the 
reporter could put that into the report in tabular form. 
Gov. Butler. It shows the record at Chardon Street Home 
and the register at Tewksbury. And I want to say one thing 
further ; when a child goes into Tewksbury there is but one rec- 
ord of him as to his condition, — “ foundling,”— with one single 
exception, and that is stated as “ feeble.” 
The Chairman. That appears on the register. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. And I also understand that this classification 
“ doubtful,” “ feeble,” “ fair,” “ good,” “ diseased,” “ not 
stated,” is the classification found on the register of the Char- 
don Street Home. 
Mr. Records. Chardon Street Home. 
Mr. Brown. But the classification at Tewksbury is simply 
“ foundling?” 
Mr. Records. Except in one instance, and that is stated 
“ feeble.” It died within a few days. 
Mr. Brown. Very well; now, Mr. Records, I don’t see any 
footing up of these columns. 
Mr. Records. I have not footed them up ; 1 will. 
Gov. Butler. There was a footing put in yesterday I am 
certain. It was 71 in all; doubtful, 2 ; diseased, 1 ; condition 
not stated, 1 ; good, 5 ; fair, 35 ; feeble, 27. 
[The following is the table submitted.] 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1633 
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CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
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Institution. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1635 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, from this record, Doctor, I 
find that at the Chardon Street Home, when these children were 
received, only five of them are designated as good out of 71. 
Others are classified as “ diseased,” “ fair,” “ feeble,” “ doubt- 
ful,” and “ not stated.” Does that record in an}’ way refresh 
your recollection as to what the fact was when they reached 
Tewksbury, as to the fact of their condition? A. Well, it 
only goes to confirm my statement that they were all sick when 
I took charge of them. I don’t know that all tabulated there 
came into my care. 
Q. This record shows that out of 71 only 5 were designated 
as good. Whether or not you recollect that out of those re- 
ceived while you were there an}' could be said to be good? A. 
Well, any received in my department were not good when I 
took charge of them. 
Gov. Butler. Why does he say “in my department ? ” 
Perhaps it would be well to find out. 
Mr. Brown. He means received in the foundling hospital. 
Gov. Butler. They are all foundlings. 
The Witness. I mean while I had charge of the foundling 
department. 
Gov. Butler. Every one is a foundling, and every one is re- 
ceived there. 
Mr. Brown. I should, perhaps, say, by way of explanation, 
that on this paper 1-52 means one week old. 
Mr. Records. Yes; and in the same way 2-12 means two 
months old ; that is just as it appears in the register. There 
are one or two instances, or perhaps more, where there is a dif- 
ference in dates between the time that the record at Chardon 
Street Home said they were sent and their receipt at Tewks- 
bury, as the register sho\\%. And, in that case, I have given an 
alternative date. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, Doctor, your attention has 
been called to the patient, Charlotte Anderson, and you have 
been interrogated about her. I wish you would look at that 
book [book produced], and tell me what that book is, if you 
know, and whether you ever saw it before? A. I have seen it 
before, and recognize my handwriting. 
Q. In it? A. In it. 
Q. Won’t you turn to a page where your handwriting exists. 
A. Well, it happens to be opened to such a page. 
Q. Now, what was that book kept for? A. It is a record 1636 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
of patients, their physical condition, and a history of their 
cases, more or less complete, during their stay in the hospital. 
Q. Was that kept as a part of the record of the hospital? 
A. It was. 
Q. And whether or not anybody who happened to be in 
charge of the hospital was under obligation to make a record 
there during the period while they were in charge of the differ- 
ent patients? A. That was the rule, sir. 
Q. Now, will you turn to the record of Charlotte Anderson, 
if any exists there. A. I have it here, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Let me see it before it is put in. 
Is this in your handwriting? A. No, sir. 
Q. Whose handwriting is that? A. I think that wras writ- 
ten by Dr. Marston. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Was he one of the physicians there 
in charge? A. He was. 
Q. At the same time you wrere there? A. At the same 
time; yes, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Is Marston alive or dead ? A. He 
was living, the last I knew. 
Mr. Brown. He is alive, and practising in Lawrence. I 
have sent for him. I wanted to call this doctor’s attention 
to it, to show what the record was and to show what the book 
was. 
Gov. Butler. When Dr. Marston comes, we will deal with 
it. 
Mr. Brown. He will be here. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I want to ask you a single ques- 
tion. Do you know an}’ rule or regulation of Tewksbury 
that requires that to be kept? A. Any_rule of the trustees? 
It is the request of the chief physician ;*at his request. I don’t 
know of any rule. 
Q. I want to ask still further; is it a history of all the 
people that died, their disease and condition ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Is it the history of any considerable portion of those that 
died? A. It is the history of a portion. 
Q. A considerable proportion ? A. Any portion is considera- 
ble, sir. 
Q. One would be a considerable portion ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, sir, do you think that a fair statement under oath 
to the question ? A. Ido. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1637 
Mr. Brown. If there were but two it would be a half, 
Governor. 
Gov. Butler. If you are satisGed with the testimony, I am. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I want to ask you one other ques- 
tion. Did on leave there before or after you were married? 
A. I left there before. 
Q. How long? A. I cannot give }rou the number of hours. 
It was not over a da3r. 
Q. You left, and were married within twenty-four hours 
afterwards. Now, do you know Mrs. Robert C. Winthrop? A. 
I have seen the lady at Tewksbury. 
Q. She was one of the advisory board, was she? A. She 
was. 
Q. Did she have anything to do with your leaving? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Did her complaint have anything to do with it? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Did she make airy? A. I never heard of any, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir. 
The Chairman. Wait a moment, Doctor. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) You said these children that came 
from the Chardon Street Home were all sick when they reached 
Tewksbury? A. I beg pardon; I said all who came under 
my charge were sick. 
Q. I wish you would give the committee a detailed state- 
ment of their external appearance and physical condition. A. 
You mean take a fair sample? 
Q. Yes, take an}’of them. A. Well, as the}7 were brought 
in they were generally dirty from having vomited sour milk. 
The nurse-bottles contained cold sour milk, coagulated milk, and 
they were crying and were squalid and appeared miserable. 
Q. How as to nourishment; did they look as if they had 
been ill-nourished or well nourished? A. So far as I recollect 
the great majority of them looked as though they had been 
poorly nourished. 
Q. How were they clad? A. Well, the material was for 
the most part good but soiled. I inferred it was soiled during 
the passage. 
Q. Some of them you say died immediately? A. I don’t 
remember the particulars concerning any one case that died 
immediately ; but I know that while I had charge of them there 
were a number of cases. 1638 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Do you know of any having died on the passage in the 
ears? A. I cannot swear to that sir, although I am pretty 
sure of it. 
Q. While you had charge there, was there an excess of 
morphine given to those children, or to any patients? A. I 
never knew of any morphine, or any preparation containing 
opium, being given to children, without direction from the physi- 
cian in charge. 
Q. Was there any complaint on the part of anybody, so far 
as 3rou know, of an excess of morphine? A. Never. 
Q. While 3rou were there ? A. Never. 
Q. The symptoms 3 0u speak of,— a child vomiting, dying t>3' 
vomiting, — would that be a s3Tmptom of death by morphia? 
A. No, sir ; it would be a symptom of death due to intestinal 
disorders, one or more. 
Q. And there are man3T, are there not? A. There are ; yes, 
sir. 
Q. Do you know whether there was an assorting of children 
at the Chardon Street Home before they were sent? A. I do 
not, only I03' hearsay, that the best were sent to other places. 
Gov. Butler. 1 think as we are to have the matron here — 
The Chairman. I simpty asked whether he was aware of the 
fact or not. 
The Witness. I am not positive. 
Q. (B3’ the Chairman.) Dr. Dixwell, I think, used the 
word “ viable ” with regard to children whose bodies he saw at 
the medical school. A. Capable of life. 
Q. What do you sayr of the children that came from the 
Chardon Street Home as to being “ viable?” 
Gov. Butler. Capable of life. 
The Witness. Well, sir, I don’t know what children came 
from the Chardon Street Home ; but as regards the word “via- 
ble,” as applied to foundlings, nobody could sa3T that a child was 
not viable while it was breathing, unless it was in articulo. 
mortis. 
Q. He also spoke of the bodies at the medical school being 
clad in lace and insertion, to use his own phrase, showing that 
nice people had them. Did you recognize amT such at Tewks- 
bury? A. 1 never saw any clothed in lace. 
Q. Trimmed up? A. Never saw any foundlings. 
Q. Never saw 3113" you would recognize by that dress? — 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1639 
Gov. Butler. This gentleman is only speaking five years 
after Dr. Dixwell’s time. 
The Chairman. I understand. 
Q. (By Mr. Chamberlain.) Did I understand a very large 
percentage of the bottles that came with the children, and from 
which they were fed, contained sour milk—milk that had soured 
on the way ? A. I don’t remember of seeing a bottle that did 
not contain milk that was unfit for a child to nurse. 
Gov. Butler. You ought to clean out Charles G. Homans, 
then. 
Q. (By Mr. Chamberlain.) I understood you to say a 
large proportion of milk was sour in the bottles. A. There is 
no doubt but what the}’ started all right. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) One moment, with reference to the 
matters brought out by the committee. Chardon Street Home 
is just close here bjr the Boston & Lowell Railroad, isn’t it? Do 
you know where it is? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the Lowell Railroad runs to Tewksbury? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And the passage is about 45 minutes, is it not? A. I 
think that is about it. 
Q. Now, in a clean bottle, proper milk furnished to an in- 
fant, would it, as a rule, sour in 45 minutes? A. It would de- 
pend on the time of year, sir. 
Q. Your testimony covered all seasons of two years, when 
you gave it to us, about the bottles. The committee was kind 
enough to give you the leeway of a large per cent. When you 
first testified you did not make any percentage; it was all. 
Now, do you mean to say il would cover all seasons? Now, 
then, do you mean to say these children came in the various 
dresses that would be put on by various mothers, or in a uni- 
form dress? A. I don’t know how they would come from 
Chardon Street, but I know they were not all dressed alike. 
Q. How many came from Chardon Street? You think you 
didn’t have 50 all told while you were there. We have got 71 
that went to Tewksbury, so we have got 21 more than you 
thought of. Did those that you supposed came from Chardon 
Street have a uniform dress? A. I did not make any suppo- 
sition, sir. It was not my business to know where they came 
from ; I took them as they were delivered to me. 
Q. Now, did any considerable number of those delivered 
have a uniform dress? A. I don’t remember what proportion. 1640 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, can you tell me anywhere near the proportion? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Whether one-half, one-third, or three-quarters, or any? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Were they uniformly squalid and dirty? A. The}' 
differed in appearance. 
Q. Were they, as a rule, squalid and dirty? A. They 
were ; those that I received. 
Q. As a rule squalid and dirty. Well, now, by dirty, do 
you mean anything more than that the child had vomited,—by 
squalid I mean more than that, a little,—that they started clean 
and got dirty on the voyage ; do you mean anything more than 
that? A. Well, in speaking of a squalid child, I mean one 
who appeared to have been poorly nourished, emaciated, clothing 
soiled by sour milk, and napkins soiled. 
Q. Now, I am coming to still another thing ; do you mean 
that the clothing bore evidence that they started in that condi- 
tion, or only what had happened on the road? A. I cannot 
say., sir. 
Q. Well, yes, you can if you will. You can tell what you 
mean. I am asking what }-ou mean. A. Some of them ap- 
peared to have been longer in that condition than others. 
Q. As a rule, did they appear to have been left dirty,in sour 
clothes and unchanged napkins, for a considerable length of 
time, so as to affect their health? A. What do you mean? 
What would you have me understand by a considerable length 
of time? 
Q. I mean longer than — long enough to have affected their 
health. I suppose a child’s napkin need not be changed in 
forty-live minutes to affect their health, or say an hour and a 
quarter to give time to make connection. I want to know 
whether you think they had been in that condition for a consid- 
erable length of time. A. I should judge some of them had 
been in that condition a longer time. 
Q. How much? A. Well, I should say for two hours. 
Q. Any of them that had been in that dirty condition more 
than two hours? A. I don’t know. I know that some of 
them came from the western part of the State. 
Q. Ah ! how accurately you know about those that came 
from the western part of the State. Why not about those from 
the Chardon Street Home ? A. Those cases were necessarily 
more dirty than others. 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1641 
Q. Then they were only as dirty as necessary, were they? 
Necessarily more dirty is as dirty as necessary. Necessarily 
more dirty gives you a longer distance. A. I knew the case ; 
I was only getting at your idea. 
Q. Where did they come from in the western part of the 
State? A. I don’t know. 
Q. How do you know they came from the western part of 
the State? A. Only by what was told me. 
Q. How many of them were there? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Did they come all at a time? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did they come in numbers at a time? A. I don’t 
remember whether there was more than one at a time. 
Q. Now, did any of these children that came look — as a 
rule, did those children that came look as though they had been 
neglected? A. Some of them did. 
Q. As a rule ? — Life is short. — That will do, sir. 
Testimony of Miss Adeline E. Crockett (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name ? A. Adeline E. Crockett. 
Q. What is your business? A. Matron of the Chardon 
Street Home. 
Q. How long have you been matron of the Chardon Street 
Home? A. It is two years last March since I became matron. 
Q. Two years last March ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long have you been connected with the institution? 
A. Ten years. On the tenth of next August I shall have been 
there eleven years. 
Q. What relation have you sustained to the home, what offi- 
cial position, prior to the time of your being matron? A. As- 
sistant matron. 
Q. During that entire period? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Nearly eleven years? A. Assistant matron and matron 
the whole time ; yes, sir. 
Q. Now we have here some records from the Chardon 
Street Home. This is volume one. On page one I find the 
first date “ When brought to the Home,” Dec. 23, 1868. I 
don’t think I understand when that does commence? A. I 
think it is in the other book, sir. 
Q. Is that your handwriting on page one, volume one? A. 1642 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
No, sir; there are none of these books in my handwriting, not 
until up to two years ago. 
Q. In whose handwriting are these? A. Mrs. Spear’s, 
Mr. Doe’s, and his clerk’s. 
Q. Mrs. Spear; who was she? A. She was the matron at 
the time. 
Q. When you were assistant matron. And who was Mr. 
Doe? A. He was the superintendent. 
Q. And who was his assistant? A. His name was William 
Valise. 
Q. Now, I want you to tell me whether either of these books 
were kept by a physician ? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t hear your answer. 
Q. Whether in either of these books the record was kept hy 
a physician ? A. No, sir ; they were not. 
Q. Since you have been matron do you make the record ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In making the entry as to the condition of the child — I 
see here the expression “ Condition ” on the margin ; in relation 
to Alfred Gibbons, it says “ Healthy.” Now, upon what exam- 
ination do you make that record ? 
Gov. Butler. She didn’t make that record. 
Mr. Brown. No, but this is an illustration. 
The Witness. Upon her own best judgment. 
Q. Your own best judgment? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Of course you consider that something, because you 
have had the handling of so many? A. I feel that it is. 
Q. Now, whether or not any of these children are examined 
by a physician at the Chardon Street Home before they are 
sent to Tewksbury? A. Not unless one is sick and we call a 
physician. 
Q. Now, for instance, take a child in this record where you 
use the expression “ Doubtful,” would you call a physician in 
regard to that? A. No, sir. 
Q. What is your custom? A. We should send it away 
and not attempt to keep it. 
Q. Now, is there any selection of children received at the 
Chardon Street Home — any sorting out? A. We always keep 
the best and send the poorest away. 
Q. Send the poorest where ? A. To Tewksbury. 
Q. Sentl the poorest to Tewksbury ? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1643 
Q. Now, where do the best go to? A. If they prove good 
and we have a chance for adoption they are adopted. 
Q. Supposing there were no chance for adoption? A. They 
would be kept quite a long time and then sent. 
Q. Do you mean sent to Tewksbury ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do }"ou know an institution called the Massachusetts 
Infant Asylum? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is, now. 
Q. Do the}7 receive children from the Chardon Street Home ? 
A. At that time, or now? 
Q. No, now? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long have they been receiving, children from the 
Chardon Street Home? A. Since 1879 ; but occasionally 
there has been one sent before that. 
Q. Now, Miss Crockett, I want you to tell the committee — 
during the years 1876, ’77,- ’78 you were at Chardon Street 
Home and were assistant matron ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You saw the children that were brought in there? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. I want 3rou to tell the committee, what according to your 
judgment was the condition of those children ? A. The 
majority of the children were poor. 
Q. You mean poor in health? A. Well, poor in health 
and poor in flesh. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t get the majority. 
Mr. Brown. The majority were poor in health and poor in 
flesh. 
Q. And what proportion of the children should you say 
showed indications of disease, as syphilis, or anything of that 
kind ? 
Gov. Butler. Is she now speaking from the record, or 
from memory ? 
Mr. Brown. Now from memory. 
The Witness. I don’t know; because I am not enough 
acquainted with disease to know. If they were sick, I knew 
they were sick, but not the cause of sickness. 
Q. Now, as to the condition of the children when the}T were 
received at the Chardon Street Home; that is, the foundlings? 
A. Physically? 
Q. Yes. A. Some were feeble, some were sick, and some 
were dyinff. 1644 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, now, as to dying ; you have some that die immedi- 
ately? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. IIow soon after they got into the home? A. Before 
I would get up two flights of stairs. 
Q. Die in your arms? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Before you got up two flights of stairs? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. From what cause, apparently ? A. Well, I cannot tell. 
Q. You don’t know from what cause? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, Miss Crockett, was your attention ever called to 
this fact, that a large number of the foundling children had been 
drugged before they were brought to the home? A. A great 
many of them. 
Q. What proportion of the foundling children received at the 
home showed indications of that? A. We often have them ; 
a great many times we have them. 
Q. Now, as to the clothing of these foundling children ? A. 
Some come fairly clothed and some without any clothing at all. 
Q. Do they frequently come with their clothing trimmed with 
lace or embroidery? A. Sometimes trimmed with lace, but of 
the very cheapest; sometimes with embroidery. 
Q. Now, who makes the selection, or who sorts out these 
children that are sent to Tewksbury? Or who did during 1876, 
’77, ’78? A. Well, the matrons. 
Q. Is Mrs. Spear here this morning? A. No, sir. 
Q. You have conveniences for keeping these children at the 
home temporarily? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You have nurses? A. Only as the inmates take care of 
them. 
Q. You have no paid nurses? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, what is your means of sending these children to 
Tewksbury, that are ordered to be sent there? A. The}7 are 
sent by one of the inmates in charge of an officer from No. 30 
Pemberton Square. 
Q. That is, an inmate from the Chardon Street Home — A. 
Carries the child. 
Q. Carries the child? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you go by the Lowell Railroad, I suppose? A. 
The}7 do now ; they used to go by the Boston and Maine, I 
think. 
Q. What is the greatest number you ever knew to go at 
one time? A. Well, I have sent two, and I think three, at 
once. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1645 
Gov. Butler. Is this between 1876 and 1878? Was that 
between 1876 and 1878 that you sent two or three at a time? A. 
I could not tell ; I could not tell you the years. 
Q. Have you children of your own, madam? A. No, sir. 
Q. And these books are in Mrs. Spear’s writing? She was 
the matron? A. She was the matron, I think, nearly ten years. 
Q. Ten years? A. I think so. 
Q. Do you know whether she was the mother of children, 
or had been at some time or other? A. I think she has. 
Q. Now, we will take a given child that comes in there ; 
either the matron or the assistant matron receives it? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And I suppose you examine it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Because we find a description of it here? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you put down what you find on examination ; or if 
you examine it the matron puts it down, or if she examines it 
you put it down? A. She puts it down; I do no writing at 
all. 
Q. But you go to her with a child — before you were ma- 
tron— if you are an assistant, you examine it, and she exam- 
ines it, and she puts it down? A. Yes, sir; I examine it and 
tell her what the condition is. She does not always examine, 
because I have charge ; sometimes she does and sometimes not. 
Q. And you put it down, or she puts it down, honestly and 
fairly — you do at any rate when you are matron — honestly and 
fairly what 3’ou find the condition of the child to be? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And you put down, whenever you know about it, about 
how old it is? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. As, for instance, we find it sometimes ; here is a case 
where it is healthy. Now, then, as a rule, about how soon were 
those in 1876, ’77, ’78 sent to Tewksbury — about how soon 
after they were received at the home, as a rule? A. I could 
not tell. Some would be sent next day, and perhaps some 
might remain weeks, and perhaps some several months. 
Q. Some next day, and some after a longer period. Now, 
you have sent to Tewksbury only those who had no known set- 
tlement in Boston? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Or elsewhere. Therefore, they must have been State 
paupers? A. Yes, sir. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1646 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Those were sent; and those that had known settlements 
in Boston 3'ou kept here? A. No, sir. They were sent to the 
Island ; those that had settlements here. 
Q. Yours was a temporary home? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. To take them and put them where the}- belonged. Now, 
was there any other sorting out of the infants than to find those 
that were to be adopted, and those that had settlements in Bos- 
ton? A. No, sir. 
Q. I suppose so. And about how many in a year would be 
adopted ? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. About how many? A. I could not tell. 
Q. Would your record show? A. I suppose it would, but 
that record I have never looked at. 
Q. It ought to be here. Well, here it is right under my eye. 
Here it is now, just on this page ; I happened to open to one. 
Here is Hattie Squires, female, white, dark complexioned, steps 
of house 128 Hudson Street, September 10, 1869, Officer Os- 
good, physical condition healthy, adopted October 8, 1869. 
Therefore, we can find out about the adoptions. And those 
sent to Tewksbury were those that were neither adopted nor had 
settlements with you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, you say the inmates had charge of them. 
Were they women? A. Women that came there. 
Q. What did they come there for? A. Out of places and 
came for a home. 
Q. What? A. Out of work and came there for a home. 
Q. And you had quite a number of those? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Rather a surplus of them all the time ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Poor women out of work, who came thei’e because they 
had no other place to go to. And you employed them to help 
37ou in 3Tour duties? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And I suppose some of them were good women — most 
of them good and efficient women, who would work if they 
could, weren’t they? A. No, sir; I don’t think they were. 
Q. They were not sent there for any crime? A. No, sir. 
Q. They came of their own accord. Very well. Nosv. 
would you send one of those women with a baly up to Tewks- 
bury? Would you send an unfit one? A. No, sir; not one 
unfit to cany a child under an officer. 
Q. Not unfit to cany a child under an officer'. Well, to see 
that it was properly cared for while it was on the road? A. 
Yes, sir. 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1647 
Q. Now, did you used to have milk? A. Yes, sir, 
Q. Did you, as a rule, furnish them with sour milk in the 
bottles? A. No, sir. 
Q. AYas not the rule right the other way, that you furnished 
them with good milk? A. I think so ; yes, sir. 
Q. You meant to do so? A. Certainly I meant to do so. 
Q. Of course, everybody is liable to make mistakes, and to 
have milk curdled by a thunder shower ; and you would not believe 
anybody that swore that when they got there, all of them had 
sour milk in their bottles, would you, that came from your 
place? A. There might be cases where it might sour in the 
bottle, but I should know it was not sour when it started. 
Q. There might be. What, in an hour? A. I don’t know* 
Q. A well-scalded bottle, a clean bottle, with clean milk put 
in, ought to last an hour, had it not? A. It would depend on 
the weather. 
Q. AYhat, with a cork in the bottle? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Miss Crockett, have you sent a child up there 
knowing that it was going away with milk in a sour bottle? A. 
Not knowingly, sir. 
Q. Now, I want to ask you further. We have here some 
cases of sick children. When a child had any visible disease 
you sent for a doctor, I suppose, didn’t you? A. No, sir. If 
we wanted to keep it in the home, we always did ; if we were to 
send it immediately away, we would send it. 
Q. If you were to send it immediately away, you sent it. 
And whenever you saw a child visibly diseased, on your exam- 
ination — for instance, if you saw one with syphilitic sore eve, 
you would put it down as a fact there? A. Put it down feeble 
or sick. 
Q. When you say good, you mean in robust health, don’t 
you ? A. As far as we can judge. 
Q. AYhen you say fair you mean in fair health, and when you 
say doubtful, you mean in doubtful health, — you don’t exactly 
know about it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. AVhen you say fair, you think you know it to be fair, and 
when you say good, you know it is a good child? A. I believe 
it is a good child at that time. 
Q. Now, while the}’ were with you, whether they stayed a 
longer or a shorter time, did they have good kind treatment, and 
proper treatment? A. I always tried to have them have such? 
sir. 1648 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. You meant the}’ should? A. I did my best toliave it 
done. 
Q. And I suppose had the material to do it with ? A. I 
had everything except brains. 
Q. What? A. I had everything except brains and dispo- 
sition ; sometimes those failed us. 
Q. You had every tiling except brains? You are cpiite too 
modest, madam. I think you had that? A. The disposition. 
I will take that back about the brains. I had the disposition to 
do that. 
Q. I meant the physical appliances which I suppose the city 
of Boston furnishes? A. Yes. sir; we have everything of 
that kind. 
Q. Did you clothe your children? You say some came with- 
out anything ; therefore you had to clothe them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Had you uniform clothing, or did you give each one dif- 
ferent clothing? About that, where they came with soiled cloth- 
ing, where the}T had laid out or had been left out, or anything 
of that sort, you took that away and gave them good, I sup- 
pose? A. Certainly. 
Q. And send them away in that wa}’? A. I used to send 
them away, if possible, in the clothing they came with. 
Q. If it was fit to go? A. Yes, sir ; or if it could be made 
fit by washing. 
Q. And if it was not fit you put on another suit? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And if it could be made fit by washing, }tou saw it was 
properly washed ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Of course you didn’t leave them in the dirt? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. You would not credit anybody who swore that your chil- 
dren came up there after an hour’s ride in a filthy and dirty con- 
dition, would you ? A. Only what was soiled on the way. 
Q. Except possible happenings on the way, during an hour 
or an hour and a half. Now, madam, let us know if you didn’t 
have a better set of children still. There came a class of chil- 
dren, didn’t there, to you, where the mothers had boarded them 
out for awhile, paid their board as long as they would or could, 
and then would not do it any longer, and then those children 
would be brought to the home by the boarding-mistresses, who 
would not keep them? A. They are brought to us through 
the proper authorities. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1649 
Q. That is, they would come and bring them directly, and 
make a complaint to you, I suppose? A. They bring them to 
us, but we never receive one from anybody who has been board- 
ing them unless we receive them from the proper authorities. 
Q. Unless the proper authority told you to do so? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. And 3 011 had a considerable number of those ? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And those would be the older, wouldn’t the}'? ‘The 
foundlings would be quite young? A. Yes, sir; and those 
boarded too. 
Q. And they would be brought by the person in whose 
hands the}'were left, and would be received into your home? 
A. Yes. sir. 
Q. And while they would be classed in your house aban- 
doned children — “ children and foundlings.” — in one case chil- 
dren and in the other foundlings, when they went to Tewks- 
bury, as soon as it was found they hadn’t any settlement any- 
where those abandoned children were sent to Tewksbury, were 
they not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Of course your object was to see what children belonged 
to Boston sent to Boston institutions, and what children be- 
longed to the State sent to the Tewksbury institution? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And what benevolent people would adopt you had 
adopted? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. I supposed that must be so. Now, I suppose, if you were 
to look back to those records where you made them, you would 
a great deal rather trust the record of the condition of those 
children than any memory you have of them now? A. Cer- 
tainly. 
Q. The records, so far as you know, were fairly, honestly 
and justly made, and show the condition of things as your expe- 
rience showed them to be, and if you could find them you would 
hardly trust your memory against your record? A. I could 
not tell any special child, except it was a very special child that 
I could remember about. 
Q. Well, I find your record shows that during this time there 
were doubtful, two; feeble, twenty-seven; fair, thirty-five; 
good, five ; one diseased, and one not stated. That is the rec- 
ord of the time, and so far as you know that record is correct 
if we have copied it correctly? A. Yes, sir. 1650 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t see as I want to trouble you any 
further. 
Q. (By Mr. Gilmore.) I would like to ask the witness to 
describe a little more definitely the method of sorting out the 
children, and how long the good children, the good babies are 
kept there for the purpose of adoption? A. Well, we kept all 
those we felt could be adopted, but 1 could not tell the length 
of time ; sometimes a week, and sometimes several months. 
Q. Well, by all those capable of adoption you mean all the 
sound and healthy ones? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the others you sent away ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) If a child came in on the first'day of 
May that was a sound and a beautiful child — I suppose you 
had some knowledge of the history of them — did you have 
some knowledge, in an}7 case, of the history of the child ? A. I 
don’t know as I understand you, sir. 
Q. Well, as to whose child it might be, or the circumstances 
under which it had been left? A. We often knew their 
mothers. 
Q. AYell, if a child was well and you knew that it had a well 
mother, a mother of some character or that had simply been un- 
fortunate, whether or not you would save out such a child and 
continue it at the Chardon Street Home, hoping that somebody 
would come that would adopt it? A. We should try to, sir. 
Q. That would be your purpose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that was your purpose? A. Yes, sir. 
Testimony of Henry A. Smith (sivorn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Your full name is Henry A. Smith? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What is your business? A. I am an attendant. 
Q. Where ? A. At Tewksbury almshouse. 
Q. At Tewksbury almshouse; how long have you been 
there as an attendant? A. I went there July 15, ’76. 
Q. July 15, ’76 ; and you have been there since that time? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did you do before you went to Tewksbury ? A. 
I was at the city hospital in Boston four years. 
Q. In what capacity ? A. I was in the capacity of watch- 
man and nurse. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
1651 
Q. Watchman and nurse. A. Took in all the patients 
that came in, and attended to the ward. 
Q. During what part of that four years were you nurse ? A. 
All the time I was there, in the principal surgical ward, ward 15. 
Q. What did you do before you were at the city hospital in 
Boston? A. I was in the dry-goods business. 
Q. Where? A. With Chandler & Co., fifteen years, 
Winter Street. 
Q. Chandler & Co., on Winter Street, fifteen years? A. 
Yes. 
Q. In what capacity? A. Salesman. 
Q. How came you to leave Chandler’s? A. I was sick; 
left on account of sickness. 
Q. Where did you live at that time? A. Cambridgeport. 
Q. Where did you live when you were nurse at the Boston 
City Hospital? A. I lived at Cambridgeport. The reason 
they had me outside was because they hadn’t sufficient accom- 
modations for sleeping apartments, and the}7 hired outside nurses, 
and I lived at home. 
Q. Now, sir, why did you leave the Boston City Hospital? 
A. Well, I left because, at that time, all the outside,—those 
that lived outside, — wasn’t wanted. That was one reason ; and 
another reason, they didn’t care for married people ; at that time 
I was married. 
Q. You were married and had a family? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What family had you? A. I had a wife and two 
children. 
Now, sir, when you went to Tew'ksbury what did you 
commence to do? A. I commenced as an attendant, nurse, 
and had charge of a ward ; had charge of a building. 
Q. In what part of the building? A. I had charge of the 
building called No. 19, when I first went there, adjoining the 
foundling— 
Q. Just show us what building you refer to. [Plan shown 
witness.] A. I think this is the foundling, — I think this is 
the situation,— I was in what was called No. 19, at the time. 
Q. The hospital marked “ F” on this plan? A. I should 
say this was the foundling; I suppose the other,—-yes, sir; this 
'was the building I was in a larger part of the time for four 
years. 
Q. For what purpose was that building occupied at that 
time? A. Then it. was occupied as, —it was a branch of the 1652 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
hospital, and it was used as a hospital and convalescents’ ward, 
etc. » 
Q. Now, sir, when you went there in ’7G, how soon after you 
got there did you have ail opportunity of examining the entire 
hospital? Did you go around through it? A. Yes, sir; I 
went right to my duties as soon as I entered. 
Q. Now, sir, I want you to tell the committee in ever}' par- 
ticular what was the condition of that hospital when you went 
there? A. Well, the condition was good. 
Q. Take the beds and bedding? A. Yes. 
Q. Now, just describe what they were? A. Well, they 
were, — the mattresses were straw, and — 
Q. What kind of straw? A. Well, good straw. 
Q. Rye straw or oat straw? A. I don’t know particularly ; 
I am not enough accustomed to straw to say about that. It was 
usual straw, such as I had been in the habit of seeing; good 
straw, as we call it, clean straw. 
Q. As to the sheets and pillow-cases? A. Yes, sir; they 
were all clean. 
Q. As to whether they used to have them dry and well 
aired? A. Well, they were brought from the laundry in 
proper condition. 
Q. Was it any part of your duty to attend to making the 
beds? A. Well, I had the oversight of the whole building. 
Q. So that you knew whether the linen was properly aired 
and dried? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And what was the fact about it? A. The fact was that 
it was well aired ; I should not had it unless it was. 
Q. Now, as to the condition of the beds ; have you ever 
seen, since you have been there, any beds with rotten straw fill- 
ings? A. No, sir. 
Q. Yon have some persons there who don’t properly care for 
themselves? A. Yes, sir ; oh, yes ;‘we have a great many ; the 
ward l was in, there was a great many old people that was not 
able to take care of themselves but very little. 
Q. When you went there were there any water-closets? A. 
In this building I was in there wasn’t any water-closets in that 
building. There was a privy, and it used to be cleaned out 
once a week, and I used to throw in, to see that the dirt was ' 
thrown in two or three times a day. 
Q. Two or three times a day ? A. Yes. 
Q. Was thei’e any smell from that privy? A. Not usually ; 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1653 
unless it was when they were cleaning it out. At that time 
there might be a little smell; ordinarily I used to throw in dirt 
sufficient to cover up — 
Q. And that you did daily? A. Yes, sir; three or four 
times a day. 
Q. Now, as to the food? A. Well, the food, — I don’t 
know ; I have eaten some one or two hundred meals there my- 
self. 
Q. What do you mean by one or two hundred meals? A. 
I have eaten, — had my dinners and suppers there to the 
amount of one or two hundred times. 
Q. By “there,” what do you mean by that? A. I mean 
in the hospital.- 
Q. Let us see. As an attendant, you have a table by your- 
self? A. Yes, sir; 1 belong to the officers’ table. 
Q. Belong to 'the officers’ table ; and that’s in the main 
building directly across the entry-way from Captain Marsh’s 
dining-room? A. Yes. 
Q. And during the entire period since you have been there 
you have dined at the officers’ table? A. Yes, sir; I belong 
there. 
Q. And these, the one or two hundred instances you speak 
of, are what? A. Well, perhaps, sometimes I would eat a 
hearty dinner and wouldn’t care for much supper, and I would 
take a little tea,— tea and toast. 
Q. That is at the inmates’ table? A. Yes. 
Gov. Butler. At the hospital table. 
Q. At the hospital table ? A. Yes. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Took a little tea and toast? A. 
Yes ; something of that kind,— bread and butter. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Well, now, as to the character of the 
bread when you first went there ; tell us all about it. A. The 
bread I call very good. 
(4. How did it compare with the bread which you had at the 
Boston City Hospital? 
Gov. Butler. 1 beg your pardon; I know nothing about 
that; I can’t examine the Boston City Hospital now. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t want you to. I was asking this wit- 
ness how the bread compared with the bread he saw there. 
Gov. Butler. How do we know, till we examine, that that 
was good bread ? 
Mr. Brown. I will ask him if it was. 1654 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. You are comparing one bad thing with 
another. 
*®Mr. Brown. I don’t know whether it was good or not. 
Gov. Butler. I know }Tou don’t, and I don’t want to go 
into that question. 
Mr. Brown. You know it was good? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know, I say ; 1 don’t know whether it 
was good or bad. Ask him how the bread was, and not how it 
compared with the Boston bread, because we don’t know what 
that was. In other words, in legal language, it is not a stand- 
ard of comparison. 
Q. Well, Mr. Smith, I want you to describe carefully what 
was the character of that bread. A. Well, sir, I thought, I 
called it very good bread, myself, very good bread. 
Q. Now, take the color of it. A. Well, the color,— it 
might have been it wasn’t so white as some, and I don’t know 
but it was,— I think it was a little darkish in color, perhaps ; 
it wasn’t as white as we had down at our table. 
Q. At the officers’ table? A. No, sir; but it was good 
bread and good white bread. 
Q. Did it appear to be well kneaded? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. With the proper amount of yeast, and all that sort of 
thing? A. Yes, sir; and well baked. 
Q. How frequently have you seen sour bread there? A. 1 
don’t know that I ever saw any sour bread ; I might have, once 
or twice, seen sour, perhaps, sometimes. There might, possibly, 
have been once or twice that there might have been some sour 
bread there. As a general thing the bread was very good. 
Q. Now, as to the other food ; take, for instance, the tea and 
the coffee? A. Well, sir, the tea, 1 called it very fair; very 
fair tea. The coffee was good. Sometimes I have heard offi- 
cers say they thought the coffee there was as good as we had on 
our table, and a little better. 
Gov. Butler. If you will leave out what the officers say I 
will be obliged to you. 
The Witness. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, what you have said with regard to the beds, bed- 
ding and food, does that apply to the entire period of your con- 
nection with the institution? A. Yes. 
Q. Has there ever been any change in the food, as to the 
quality of it, since you first went to the institution? A. 1 
don’t think there has ; it is pretty much the same thing. 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
1655 
Q. Do you know the baker? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long has he been there, the present baker? A. He 
went there, I think, shortly before I did ; in the spring, I think. 
Q. That is, sometime prior to the first of June, 1876? A. 
Somewhere along there in that neighborhood ; he went there a 
little before I did. 
Q. Been there continuously? A. Yes, sir ; with the excep- 
tion of being sick ; except sickness. 
Q. Now, he is a professional baker, is he? A. I couldn’t 
say about that; I presume he is. 
Gov. Butler. If he is a professional one he is a poor one ; 
but if he is a properly educated baker it is all right. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I want you to tell me,—you have vis- 
ited all parts of this institution, haven’t you? A. Well,pretty 
much ; I don’t know I have been in every part. 
Q. But you sat at the officers’ table with Mr. Barker? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Mr. French and his wife? A. Yes, sir; lie was,—yes. 
Q. Mr. French who died, and his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Mr. Dudley and his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want you to tell me, Mr. Smith, whether you ever 
heard from Mr. or Mrs. Dudley, from either of the Frenches, 
male or female, from Mr. Barker or his wife, an}’ complaint at 
any time as to any act of cruelty committed in that institution? 
A. I never remember. 
Q. Never heard anything of the kind? A. I don’t remem- 
ber of it. 
Q. Did any fact tending to show that there had been an act 
of cruelty committed in that institution come to your attention 
from any source? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never did. And do you know Mr. Beebe who was there 
once from New Bedford? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever know an}’ act of cruelty committed in his 
presence upon any patient or inmate? A. No, sir; I don’t 
remember that I ever did. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You see you drop your voice,— 
“ No, sir, I don’t know,” but what? A. He asked me, I think, 
if I ever remembered any acts of cruelty committed while Mr. 
Beebe was there. 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
The Witness. I don’t remember of any in particular. 1656 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Don’t remember of any in particular. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Do you remember of any in general? 
A. I don’t remember ; we didn’t usually have any cruelty in 
the ward. 
Q. Did you ever know any cruelty there? 
Gov. Butler. In the ward. 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Anywhere in the institution? A. It never came under 
my observation. 
Q. Was there any occasion like this, that a man was strapped 
to a bed in your ward, in your presence, and flogged with any- 
thing* or whipped, or struck? A. No, sir. 
Q. Anything of the kind? A. No, sir. 
Q. Has Mr. Beebe got a child still in the institution? A. 
He has. 
Q. Is it male or female? A. Male. 
Q. How old is it? A. I think he said it was eighteen when 
he visited there the other day. 
Q. Was that child in the institution at the time Mr. Beebe 
was there? A. He was. 
Q. According to your best recollection how long has that 
child been in the institution? A. I could not say; he was 
there before he came to me ; I don’t know how long. 
Q. Has he been there continuously since the time he was 
first admitted? A. I think the boy has. 
Q. Mr. Beebe has not? A. As far as I know. 
Q. What is the condition of that child? A. Well, he 
hasn’t any mind. 
Q. Is he what you would call an idiot? A. Well, yes, sir ; 
I should think he would come under that head. 
Q. Now, I have called your attention generally, I want to 
call your attention to this specific matter: while Mr. Beebe, Sr., 
was there at that institution, was there in your ward, or in any 
other ward where you had an opportunity of observing, any in- 
mate who was kept upon any bed which was filth}' and rotten? 
A. I don’t remember of any such case. 
Q. If there had been any such case would it have been likely 
to have come to your attention? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I want you to tell the committee-what, 
so far as you have had an opportunity for observing, has been 
the conduct of Captain Marsh toward the inmates and officers? 
A. They have always spoken very kindly of him. 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1657 
Q. Who, for instance? A. Oh, every one. 
Q. That is, of the inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Does that apply, also, to the officers? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, during the time 3-011 have been in the institution, 
3’ou have seen Mrs. Marsh, the wife of Captain Marsh, I sup- 
pose, frequently? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How frequently, within 3'our knowledge, did she visit 
different parts of the institution? A. Well, she, while I was 
there, the last ward I was in, — she didn’t usually make visits 
where I was, because I had a male ward in the hospital where I 
was. 
Gov. Butler. A little louder, please ; I want to get that. 
The Witness. I sa3” she didn’t usually make visits where I 
was, — the hospital; I don’t know where she did go. 
Q. Did 3 011 see her visit elsewhere? A. I have seen her 
making visits ; when I made a change to the other hospital, she 
used to come there and make an examination of the rooms. 
Q. How frequently? A. Well, she was there, I think, 
twice while I was there, —-onceor twice. She came in to see 
the condition of the rooms, when there was a new doctor come. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, did 3-011 have amJhing to do with the 
washing of the male inmates who came to the institution? A. 
Yes. 
Q. And the care of their clothing? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. State what you had to do with it. A. The oversight 
of it. 
Q. Well, state fully all. A. It was 1113- business to see 
that the3' were properly bathed and cleansed; I had general 
oversight. 
Q. (B3r Go\p Butler.) Had general oversight? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. (B3t Mr. Brown.) Who did the work? A. Well, I had 
to depend on inmates to do a great deal of it, —did work my- 
self and had inmates work. 
Q. That was done in the room which was spoken of b3T 
French Joe, was it, underneath the office? 
Gov. Butler. No ; ask him where it was done, not tell 
him. 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t suppose there was any question about 
it; I merely wanted to call his attention to another line of in- 
quiry. 
A. The most of my washing was done in the hospital. 1658 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. There, you would have led him just wrong. 
In every ease 3011 put into the mouth of the witness the words. 
Mr. Brown. I know ; but I usuall}’ hear straight. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, what appliances did 3Tou have for bath- 
ing at the hospital? A. Well, we had good appliances while 1 
was there. 
Q. Well, such as what? A. We had two bath-tubs. We 
heat the water in one and fdled the other bath-tub from that for 
the patients. 
Gov. Butler. He heat the water in one bath-tub? 
Mr. Brown. I will ask him about that. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I would like to get that. 
Q. Just tell us clearly how you heat the water. A. We 
usually heat the water,—there were two tubs there, — and we 
usually heat one bath-tub ; filled it with water and heat it. 
CJ. Heat it in a bath-tub? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How? A. By means of steam. 
Q. B3'means of steam ? A. Yes. 
Q. How did you get the steam into the tub? A. There 
were regular fixtures lor admitting the steam to heat the water 
there. 
Q. Regular fixtures in the bath-tub? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. For heating the water by steam? A. Yes, sir; fau- 
cets. 
Q. (B3’ Gov. Butler.) In one of them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) How about the other? A. The 
other tub, — we would take the water from this tub that we had 
filled, and put it into the other tub, and then put the patient in- 
to it; and when he got through we would drain the water oft' 
and cleanse the tub and put another one in. 
Q. How many did 3-011 wash in the same water? A. Didn’t 
wash an3* in the same water ; never washed a man in my life, — 
never put two men in the same water. 
Q. Did you ever see two men put in the same water? A. 
I never did. . 
Q. In the hospital, — did 3’ou ever hear about it? A. I 
have heard about it since this investigation. 
Q. Did 3011 ever hear Mr. Barker, during his connection with 
the institution, complain of washing more than one man in the 
same water? A. He never spoke to me about it. 
Q. Or Mr. Dudle3T? A. No, sir; he never spoke to me. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1659 
Q. Either Mr. Barker or Mr. Dudley? A. No, sir; I 
don’t remember about it. 
Q. Or either of the Frenches, male or female? A. Not 
sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Don’t remember it? A. No, sir; 
they wouldn’t be likely to speak to me on that subject, I don’t 
suppose. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Why not? A. Well, they was in a 
different building from what I was. 
Q. Yes, but you met at the officers’table ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They complained to you, sometimes, that things that 
they wanted they could not get; didn’t they? It was a matter 
of discussion at table ? 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; ask what complaints they made ; 
don’t put it into his mouth. 
Mr. Brown. Let us find out whether there was any, and 
then we will find out what the complaint was. 
Gov. Butler. Ask, did they make complaint to you about 
anything. Don’t lead him as you woidd a child in leading- 
strings. 
A. I don’t remember they ever made any complaint to me 
about anything. 
Q. Don’t remember they ever made any complaint to you 
about anything. Now, just tell me again how long you were 
connected with that hospital. A. Which one, sir? 
Q. Well, the one where you went first? A. Upwards of 
four years. 
Q. Upwards of four years ; and then where did you go? A. 
I went to the main hospital. 
Q. Wh’at building, or what part of the building was that? 
A. That was in a brick building, a long brick building. 
Q. That is the main building occupied by the family of the 
superintendent, was it? A. No, sir; a separate building ad- 
joining the lodge, just above the lodge. 
Q. It is the long building which is on the left as }rou enter 
the gate? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Enter the yard. That is the building in which the dis- 
pensary is located, is it? A. Yes. 
Q. Also the building in which the chapel is located? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Separate building. Now, how long did you stay in that 
hospital ? A. I stayed there about a year and a half. 1660 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. About a y'ear and a half; then where did you go ? A. 
Then I went to the shorter hospital, the other end of the build- 
ing, the other side of the dispensary. 
Q. Between the dispensary and the chapel? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long did you stay there? A. Well, I went there 
the twenty-fourth of last August, and I am there now. 
Q. That is, the twenty7-fourth of August, 1882? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And have been there since ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So, that during your entire connection with the institu- 
tion you have been in one of the hospital wards? A. Yes, sir; 
that has been my7 business altogether. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I want you to tell me whether you ever 
got short of help, ever have been short of help in that hospital? 
A. All the help 1 have had is inmates ; I never had an assist- 
ant. 
Q. Never had an assistant? A. No, sir. 
Q. How many persons have you had under your charge at 
one time? A. I had, when 1 was in this long hospital, 1 had 
seventy7-six beds. 
Q. Seventy-six beds without any assistant? A. Without 
any assistant; and then I had some out-patients that took their 
meals there, outsiders, some twenty-five more,—twenty or 
twenty-five more. 
Q. That is, convalescents? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who had been discharged from the hospital and sent 
out into some other part? A. Sent in; theyT were rather 
feeble, and were sent in there to get a little better nourishment. 
Q. To get a better diet? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butlck. People who wanted better living. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, was there any' time when you were in 
the first hospital referred to, that it was overcrowded? A. 
A. Well, the beds were always all filled up, the beds, I think. 
Q. Now, how about the second hospital, next the gate? A. 
That was always full, always ; it was usually kept full all the 
time ; every7 bed was usually7 kept full. 
Q. Whether or not, Mr. Smith, y7ou have sometimes been 
obliged to turn out people who really needed hospital treatment 
and diet in order to give room to some person who was more 
unwell? A. It has been done in some instances. 
Q. Well, how frequently? A. Well, not very frequently ; 
occasionally. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300, 
1661 
Q. Occasionally? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want you to state to the committee, Mr. Smith* 
atn' criticism which you sea (it to make in regard to the diet of 
that hospital. I want you to state fully just what you have got 
to say about it, if anything. A. _ Well, I can only say this, that 
the food is the same every day in the week ; that is, pretty much 
the same food is furnished for every day. 
Q. Now, as to the articles of diet; do you have fruit? A. 
In the season of it they used to have muskmelons and apples* 
and those things in the season of them. 
Q. Do you have tomatoes the year around? A. Yes, sir; 
they used to send in a great many tomatoes in the season of 
them. 
Q. Do you ever have canned tomatoes? A. Not in the 
hospital we don’t. 
Q. Or canned corn? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or an}T kind of preserves, peaches, pears, apricots, or 
anything of that kind? A. Not in the hospital we do not; 
sir. 
Q. Do you have jellies of any kind? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, do you have any fine puddings, any. 
thing of that kind, farina diet or blanc-mange, or anything of 
that kind, such as inmates may require in the hospital? A. 
No, sir ; we do not. 
Q. Have you ever seen them there? A. No, sir; not 
unless the patients bring them themselves. 
Q. Whether, in your judgment, with your experience, such 
articles as I have named, as canned tomatoes, or corn, or fruit 
of any kind, or blanc-mange, or such articles as jellies — 
Gov. Butler. Has he any experience to make him valuable. 
He has been there and never lias seen what good it would do, 
because he never has seen any used. What experience has he 
had? Does he qualify himself as a person who would know? 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t suppose it required very much of a 
qualification for a man to know what was good to eat. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; it does require quite a qualifica. 
tion to know what is fit to eat by sick men in hospitals. 
Mr. Brown. I supposed it was a matter of common knowl- 
edge that such things as 1 have named were healthful for an 
invalid. 
Gov. Butler. If 3’ou wrere to give a sick man canned corn 
you would never want to give him any more. 1662 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apt*. 
Mr. Brown. Let us take another thing. 
Q. Did you ever see any broiled chicken ? 
Gov. Butler. That is another-thing. Broiled chicken is 
another matter; but the whole of Franklin’s expedition was 
supposed to be poisoned by eating canned corn, and the 
Jeannette suffered terribly by it. 
Q. Did you ever see any broiled chicken in the hospital? 
A. Never furnished by the institution. 
Q. Did you ever see a patient in the hospital whom you 
think would be inspired by a piece of warm broiled chicken? 
A. I think there are cases where the}' would be very glad to 
get it. 
Q. And if you had been left to your judgment and had the 
means you would have furnished it, wouldn’t you? A. I think 
I should ; yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I suppose you know when you are over- 
worked and when you are not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Won’t you tell us whether in your judgment you have 
been obliged to have too much care and responsibility in the 
department in which you have acted there as nurse? A. I did 
in the large ward. 
Q. Had more than you could do. 
Gov. Butler. How long was he there? 
Q. How long were you there ? A. A year and a half. 
Q. Now, what assistance, in your judgment, ought you to 
have had? A. Well, I think if I had had one assistant I would 
have,—it would have been a help to me, I think. I presume if 
I had urged it, I could have had one. 
Gov. Butler. If you had urged it, you could have had one. 
Q. You were obliged to rely entirely on the help of inmates? 
A. That was always found. 
Q. Always found. Mr. Smith, I want to ask you how much 
you got a month or week? A. Got $30. 
Q. Thirty dollars a month, or week, which is it? A. A 
month. 
Q. Thirty dollars a month, and found? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, sir, where is your family ? A. Cambridgeport. 
Q. They have lived there all the time, have they, since you 
left Chandler’s ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What family,—I think I have asked you that. 
Gov. Butler. Why don’t you ask him about his family? 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
1663 
Mr. Brown. That is what I called your attention to this 
morning,—that you were a little hard of hearing. 
Gov. Butler. That may be, sir ; but you haven’t asked him 
here what family he had. 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t ask him now, but I asked him fifteen 
miutes ago what family he had, and he said he had a wife and 
two children. I am surprised you didn’t observe it. 
The Witness. At that time,—part of the time. 
Q. What family have you now? A. I have two daugh- 
ters. 
Gov. Butler. He once had a family of a wife and two 
daughters. 
Q. Now, what part of the time, if an}', since you have been 
connected with the Tewksbury almshouse, have you been away 
from duty? A. I have not been away, except on my vaca- 
tions. I have not been away more than a day at a time ; about 
once in two months I am in the habit of going home to spend a 
day. 
Q. And what da}* do you usually select? A. Well, I gen- 
erally go about once in two months. 
Q. Well, what day do you usually select? A. No particu- 
lar day. 
Q. No particular day. I didn’t know but you went home to 
spend Sunday. A. I have done that in some instances, but 
don’t make a rule of any particular da}'. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I want to ask you in regard to the 
clothing in the hospital department. What has it been? A- 
Well, it has been fair. We don’t, usually, have new clothing 
there ; we had clothing that had been worn before —previously. 
As a general thing, we didn’t have much new clothing. 
Q. Now, whether, in your judgment, there should be any im- 
provement in the clothing furnished the inmates in the hospital? 
A. Well, I think there might be some improvement made 
there. 
Q. Such as what? A. Well, such as,—I have found some- 
times a difficulty in obtaining just such clothing as I wanted for 
inmates. 
Q. Now, for instance, give us an illustration. What cloth- 
ing would you want? A. Well, some man might have a poor 
coat, and I might want to get something for him. If they had 
it, T could always obtain it, but sometimes they would not have 
it,—might, perhaps, be out of coats. 1664 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I low about underclothing? A. Never had much trouble 
with underclothing : always had plenty of shirts and drawers,— 
at least, plent\- of shirts ; drawers we didn’t use, but usually 
had undershirts and outside shirts. 
Q. Now, 1 want to ask you whether there has ever been, 
since you were connected with that hospital, any room which 
could be used and occupied as a room for dying persons, so as 
to separate them from the other inmates? A. There never has 
been any such room, that is, particularly. There is one room 
that is a six-bedded room, and we sometimes put the worst pa- 
tients in that. That is, both of the hospitals have a six-bedded 
room which sometimes we put them into. 
Q. Now take, for instance, this long ward in the building 
next to the gate ; how many inmates, how many beds are there 
in that building? A, Well, I believe there are 71, now. 
Q. Sevent} -one ; and if a man is in that wrard in a dying 
condition, there is no place to remove him to, no other room 
where he can be by himself, is there, where he can be removed? 
A. There is a little box there, a small box that contains twro 
beds, partitioned off'. 
Q. A little corner ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is filled up with something, usualh ? A. Usually ; 
they put bad cases in that. 
Q. Bad cases have to be put in that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that all the scenes connected with the death-bed are 
enacted there, right in front of all the other patients, old and 
young ; sometimes boys, 1 suppose ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Young boys. Now, I want to know, Mr. Smith, if at 
any time since you have been connected with this institution 
you have ever heard of any complaint of any inmate that such 
inmate could not get his clothing or his money? A. I don’t re- 
member of any such instance. I usually go for the money ; that 
is, if they have any money, I usually go to the office for it. 
When an inmate comes in, if he has any monej7 with him. I 
usually take it and take it to the office. That is my orders, 
with the exception of anything less than a dollar: and that 1 
reserve for him in case he wants tobacco, or wants to buy any 
little thing. 
Q. Has that been the habitual custom since you have been 
there? A. It has with me; yes, sir. 
Q. Now, are these inmates that come to the hospital, which 
you spoke of as attending to their bathing, etc.,— those are not 1888.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
1665 
taken to the office, I suppose? A. Well, the building I was 
formerly in, the}' used to take them and bathe them before I 
took them, because I had no suitable bathing place. 
Q. You mean in the first building? A. Yes, sir; but in 
the last building they are usually taken right in, and we bathe 
them. 
Q. flow was it with the hospital next the gate? A. Usu- 
ally were brought right in to us, and we attended to them, to the 
cleansing of them, washing. 
Q. So that they were examined, and if they had any money 
it was taken by you? A. Yes, sir. The rule was for Mr. 
Marsh, Mr. Charles Marsh, to stay at the lodge when they came 
there. He usually asked if they had any money, and took it 
himself. Sometimes, in some instances, they would come in 
and bring money inside,— have it on them. 
Q. Now, you find people, sometimes, who would have 
money concealed about their clothing? A. Yes, sir; we had 
many come in. I had one man come in one time with $90 and 
a watch. 
Q. Ninety dollars and a watch. A. Yes, sir; I took it to 
the office, and when he went out he received it. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What was his name? A. I don’t 
remember his name ; an old gentleman. He was there a short 
time. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Never heard any complaint but what 
they got their money ? A. I never heard any; no, sir. I 
always, when I went there for money I carried up there, I 
never had any difficulty in getting it. 
Q. Now, for instance, a man came into your ward; he had 
money and you took it and delivered it lo the clerk, and, then, 
at the end of six months or any other time he was ready to go 
away, and was still in your ward, did you see to his outfit? A. 
Well, no,' sir; that was usually done, — French .Toe used 
usually to do that. It is done in the bath-room. 
Q. Suppose he was still in your ward, in the hospital? A. 
I then did ; dressed them ; yes, sir; the}- frequently sent their 
clothing to me. Their clothing was taken away ; that is, their 
own clothing, shirts, etc., was taken away and washed and put 
away, and they were given house clothing ; and when they went 
away they were given their own clothing. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Sent into the ward and you dressed 
them? A. Yes, sir. 1666 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, would you attend to getting 
the money from the clerk? A. I would in many instances ; 
sometimes they would go themselves. 
Q. Mr. Smith, you have some cases of delirium tremens 
brought there to Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. They haven’t 
usually come under my supervision. There are some, but they 
are mostly brought into, — mine has been more of a convales- 
cent ward, an old men’s ward, —the}- have usually been brought 
into the — 
Mr. Wolcott. Will the witness speak a little louder, 
please. 
Q. Was there a special place there where the inmates who 
have delirium tremens are cared for, any special room? A. 
No, sir ; cared for in the ward. ( 
Q. Well, take a very serious case of delirium tremens, what 
would you do in that case, — where would you put them? A. 
We would put them in a bed, and, if necessary, we should have 
to tie them, strap them. 
Q. Strap them? A. If necessary. 
Q. An}’ apparatus made on purpose for that? A. They 
have in the hospitals, in the surgical hospital, I should say. 
Q. What is it? A. Well, they have straps; the}' have 
pieces of leather that can fasten around the ankles. 1 suppose 
the ordinary apparatus that is used for such cases. 
Q. I want to find out exactly wliat it was. A. Well, they 
have, — it must be a long piece of leather, perhaps half a yard 
long, and that is — 
Q. Sole leather, or thinner? A. I should judge it would 
be lighter and thinner than sole leather ; light leather; common 
hard leather; and there is a piece of leather goes around the 
wrist with a staple, or, at least, — well, you might call it a 
staple, — and this piece of leather is first put around the wrists 
and this staple would go through this main piece of leather on 
the outside, and then there would be a buckle go through, a 
strap go through so as to secure the hands. 
Q. This large piece of leather you spoke of was made to 
secure the body? A. No, sir; made to secure the hands and 
keep the hands together. 
Q. What apparatus was there for securing the body? A. 
Well, they have, — there is pieces of leather that go around the 
ankles. 
Q. Anything to secure the trunk? A. They secure the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1667 
hands and the feet; }Tes, sir; and then put a sheet around, if 
necessary, under the arms. That would usually secure them 
sufficient. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Henry A. Smith, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What is your age, Mr. Smith? A. I am 61, sir. 
Q. How? A. Sixt}’-one. 
Q. And you went there when? Speak up good and loud. 
A. I am laboring under a cold, but I will speak as loud as I 
can. I went there in Juty, ’76 ; July 15, ’76. 
Q. And you are in the employ there now? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Came from there this morning? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you hear about the legislature going up there to- 
morrow, before you left? A. No, sir ; I didn’t. 
Q. What? A. I didn’t hear of it officially. 
Q. What? A. I didn’t hear of it officially ; no, sir. 
Q. Officially ; have you got a pair of ears that hear official 
things different from other ears? A. No, sir.' 
Q. Very well; did you hear of it? A. I overheard it. 
Q. Oh, you overheard it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is, you heard somebody else talking about it? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Things in pretty good condition up there now? A. 
Well, I think fair. 
Q. Fair? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Nothing better than that; haven’t they got it only up to 
fair, yet? A. About as we usually have it. We usually cal- 
culate to keep it in a pretty fair condition, pretty good condition, 
I might say. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, don’t you know this : that you gen- 
erally hear when official visits are going to be made, — overhear 
it, or hear it somehow? A. No, sir; there has been several 
made that we haven’t heard of. 
Q. There has been ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When was there one made? A. Well, I think there was 
one made a short time ago. 
Q. By “ a short time ago ” what do you mean? Keep your 
voice up, sir. A. I should say within two or three months. 
Q. Within two or three months there was one you didn’t 
know about; when was the one you didn’t know about before 
that? A. Well, often people come there. 
Q. Take it official visits, Mr. Smith, not when “ often people 1668 
chahitable institutions. 
[Apr. 
came there.” When was there an official visit made before that 
— give me the time and the official body—when you didn't 
know of it beforehand? A. Well, I have usually known of it. 
Q. Haven’t you always? A. No, sir; because there are 
some — 
Q. Official visits? A. I have usually known of it. 
Q. Usually known of it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, I suppose, now, there was a little cleaning up, 
wa’n’t there, at those times? A. Well, I don’t know as there 
was any more than what we always try to keep the place clean. 
Q. I know ; you always try to keep the place clean ; but was 
there any cleaning up at that time? A. We always — 
Q. Don’t tell me what you always do ; tell me what you did 
at that time. 
Mr. Brown. [From another part of the room.] Mr. Smith, 
you must speak a little louder ; we can’t hear }rou. 
Gov. Butler. That is not my fault; 3Tou hear me, don’t 
you? 
Mr. Brown. I hear a sort of rough sound. [Laughter.] 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubt you think it so. [Laughter.] 
Hadn’t you better let me alone ? 
Mr. Brown. I will keep still, Governor. 
Q. Now, didn’t they use to clean upon the occasion of these 
official visits there? A. We would see that everything was in 
order. 
Q. I know ; “ see that everything was in order.” Well, now, 
didn’t they clean up, scrub up and dress up? A. I don’t 
know that we did any more than we usually did. 
Q. Then, if you usually did, what is the use— A. We 
always tried to keep the place — 
Q. I know ; you always tried to keep the place extra clean. 
Leave that out. You have told me that, this is, I think, the 
sixth time ; the fifth, I am certain about. Now. won’t you just 
confine yourself to the question : did you clean up on such occa- 
sions? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. We did. 
Q. You did always? A. Usually. 
Q. When official visits were known— A. We calculated 
to. 
Q. What? A. We calculated to have it clean ; yes. 
Q. • Did you always clean up when 'official visits were known 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1669 
to be about to be made? A. We never made any great extra 
preparation for it. 
Q. I didn’t ask you whether you made any great prepara- 
tions ; did you always clean up? Answer my question. A. 
Yes, sir ; we usually cleaned up. 
Q. Well, sir ; now, please take your hand down and turn so 
these gentlemen [the committee] can hear you, and answer the 
question directly, and not make me put a dozen questions to get 
a little bit of truth. Now, don’t you know, Mr. Smith, on your 
oath, don’t you know that there were means of communication 
from the telegraph station, from the railroad station, by which 
it could be known when official visitors were coming? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Have a telephone down there? A. Have a telephone ; 
yes. 
Q. What? A. They had a telephone there. 
Q. Had a telephone down to the railroad station; and 
where did that telephone communicate with? A. It communi- 
cated with the railroad, I know. 
Q. 1 know, but where was the other end? A. I believe 
they could communicate wherever — Boston, I believe. 
Q. They could communicate with Boston by that means? 
A. I think they could ; I hadn’t much to do with that. 
Q. I know you didn’t have much to do with it; I understand 
that. They had a telephone ; how long had they that telephonic 
apparatus? A. I couldn’t say exactly, but I should say some- 
where in the neighborhood of two years, or, perhaps, two or 
three years. 
Q. And they had a telephone in the office that communicated 
with that one? A. I think they have ; sir. 
Q. Yres ; and before that did they have any means of com- 
municating? A. I never knew of any. 
Q. Do you mean to say that you don’t know that they did 
receive information? A I have no means of knowing that. 
All the information, all the means that I would know of any 
one’s coming, Mr. Thomas Marsh would come in and say there 
would be visitors come, perhaps, on such a day. That is all the 
means I had of knowing. 
Q. That is all the means you had of knowing? A. That 
is all. 
.Q. Mr. Thomas Marsh, Jr., would come in, you mean by 
him, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 1670 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Not the old man? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The young man would come into your ward and would 
say, we are going to have visitors on such and such a day. A. 
Yes, sir ; generally notified me. 
Q. You knew what that meant, didn’t you ? It meant you 
should get cleaned up, didn’t it? A. See that everything was 
in order ; yes sir, 
Q. See that everything was in order ; yes. Now, there are 
two or three things further I want to ask about. You had $300 
a year when you went there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And have you $300 now? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. I have $360 now. 
Q. When were your wages raised? A. They were raised 
when I took — they were raised last, the first of September, it 
commenced. 
Q. The first of last September ? A. Yes, sir. 
q. Then you stayed there from 1876 to 1882, four years, and 
a little better, at $300 a j'ear? A. I did ; yes, sir. 
Q. When did they put you on that hard work and overwork 
you? A. Well, when I left this hospital, called No. 19, the 
first place I was in, the place I was in four years. 
Q. Well, now, you went into hospital No. 19, which is the 
old men’s ward, isn’t it? A. Well, no, it is not; it was a 
branch of the hospital. 
Q. I know; but that is what it was called, wasn’t it? A. 
No, sir; it was called hospital 19. 
Q. Hospital 19; what class of patients were in it? A. I 
had a good many phthisis cases. 
q. A good many what? A. A good many phthisis cases ; 
consumption. 
q. That is a good many consumptives? A. Yes, sir. 
q. That were put in there ; and a good many old men? A. 
Some old men ; yes, sir. 
q. Some old men? A. That was the first hospital. 
q. And some what? A. This was the first hospital I was 
in, that 1 am speaking of now. 
q. T know; we are now on No. 19. A. Yes, sir. 
q. Where you were for four years. A. The building I am in 
now has not been changed ; that is, it is called 19, —that is, the 
clothing and evendhing is marked 19; that is, the building 1 
afterwards left, but this is, — well, a separate building. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
1671 
Q. I mean this hospital by the gate. A. Yes, sir; the 
clothing in that now is all marked 19, but I removed. 
Q. I don’t care about the clothing marked ; 1 only want to 
get the building. A. Yes, sir; it is called 19. 
Q. And for four years after you went there you were in this 
hospital or ward or building, where the consumptive patients 
were and the old men were? A. No, sir. 
Q. As a general rule? A. No, sir ; they were rather sick 
patients, convalescent patients, patients that were in the other 
hospital, and were recovering, and were put into this. 
Q: Yes; convalescent patients. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The consumptive patients were not generally convales- 
cent very much, were they? Not reckoned as convalescent? 
A. Chronic, we called them. 
Q. They were chronic,—chronic convalescents; that is, 
chronic — getting well. — convalescent means that, in our neigh- 
borhood. And there was where your duty was to be, and there 
you attended all the time, L suppose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well; and nobody else had charge of that ward but 
you while you where there? A. I was the only attendant 
there. 
Q. You were the only person having charge except the 
superior? A. Yes, sir; physicians. 
Q. Well, there was a physician ; but the physician didn’t 
have much to do there, because these were convalescents, you 
know. Now, then, in that ward you say all the beds were 
clean? A. Yes, sir ; I attended to that business. 
Q. And you say the straw was right, but whether rye straw, 
or wheat straw, or oat straw, you don’t know; you don’t know 
enough about straw to know that? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. I am no judge of straw; no, sir. 
Q. Then, if you are no judge of straw, whether it was good 
straw or bad straw, you don’t know? A. It appeared to be 
good straw, as far as I know ; about such straw as I have 
ordinarily seen. 
Q. We know where you have generally seen straw ; it was 
there. Now, then, those beds were clean; and all these 
patients, for a time, had to go out to a privy, did they? A. 
There was a privy connected with the building ; that is, it was 
attached to the building; it was built out from the building. 
Q. Did it open into the main ward? A. Yes. 1672 
CHARTTA BLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[ Apr. 
Q. And was it an ordinary privy with a vault? A. Jt 
went down into the ground ; was bricked at the bottom. 
Q. Brick vault? A. Bricked at the bottom ; yes, sir. 
Q. And that was cleared out once a week? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And loam thrown in at other times? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, were there any conveniences where those 
patients bathed in that building? A. No, sir ; there was — 
Q. Answer that; if there was say so, and if there was not 
say so. A. We had a bathing-tub there ; at least, one of these 
portable tubs. 
Q. One what? A. Sort of a portable bath-tub. 
Q. There were no conveniences in there for bathing but a 
portable bath-tub. How many convalescents were there ; how 
many were there in the ward as a rule ; how many beds had you? 
A. I had 34. 
Q. And were these, as a rule, all filled? A. There were 
two rooms, one above the other. 
Q. Did you have charge of them both ? A. Yes, sir ; I 
had the whole building; one 18, and 16 in the other. 
Q. Thirty-four; now, then,— 18 beds in one and 16 in the 
other,—and they had for bathing conveniences one portable bath- 
tub. About what sort of a tub was that? A. I will qualify it 
in this way: Those that wasn’t able to go up to the main 
place to bathe was put in this tub and those that were able went 
up to the regular bathing place. 
Q. The regular bathing place. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All right; and this bath-tub was for those who were not 
able to go up there? A. Yes, sir; there was no water in the 
building. 
Q. No water in the building but what was brought, in by 
pail? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, had you any other charge for four years than 
of your ward, that seemed to be enough, and of that building? 
A. That was my duties ; that is where I attended. 
Q. That is all 3Tou had to do? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, when they went up to the regular bathing 
place, — when you first went there in 1876, — I want you to 
describe that bathing place. A. Well, l think it had five,— it 
was in the basement, and T think it had five or six tubs in it, 
heat by steam. 
Q. Five or six tubs? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And was that regular bathing place where all the people 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1673 
who were able to go had to go to be bathed? A. I think it 
was, sir; yes. 
Q. Think it was? A. Yes, sir ; except the hospital people. 
Q. I know ; those were not able to go. A. No, sir ; but in 
the other hospital, this main, long building, they had conveni- 
ences there. 
Q. Just leave that out now ; I am talking about everybody 
except those who were in the hospitals, they were not able to 
go ; all that were able to, in your room, used to go, and all the 
other able-bodied people went to that general bathing place. 
Well, now, didn’t they have a pond there at some time ? A. Not 
in my building ; no, sir. 
Q. I know they didn’t; they didn’t have anything but a 
portable batliing-tub, — that can’t be called a pond, very well, — 
in your building. A. No ; I never saw — 
Q. But, I am asking you, at this general bathing place, didn’t 
they have a pond? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, did they have a large tank? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was there never any there? A. I never saw one. 
Q. Did you ever know whether they had one there? A. If 
there had been one there I should have seen it. 
Q Did you know there was one there before your time? A. 
I never knew about it; no sir. 
Q. Never heard about it? A. All I know is about my day. 
Q. What? A. I only know about — 
Q. About your time ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, about these premises, anywhere, there was 
never any such a thing as a pond or a large place where people 
stepped in? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. Not in any building I ever had anything to 
do with. 
Q. Well, was there in any building that you ever saw there? 
A. I never saw a pond there myself; no pond at all. 
Q. Did you ever see a large bathing place where more than 
one could bathe at a time? A. I never did. 
Q. Never did? A. No, sir. 
Q. Anywhere? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never heard about such a thing? A. 1 have heard since 
the investigation. 
Q. Not before? A. I never knew anything about that. 
Q. What? A. I never knew anything about bathing, only 
pf my own patients. 1674 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Very well. Now, then, your patients went to the gen- 
eral bathing place, and they were always bathed? A. In the 
bathing-tub. 
Q. One at a time? A. Yes, sir. Of course, there could 
not be more than one get into the bathing-tub at a time. 
Q. Hot and cold water for the bathing-tub? A. Yes, sir. 
The water was cold, and was'heated by steam. 
Q. What? A. The water was cold, and was heated by a 
steam-pipe. 
Q. A steam-pipe went into the tub? A. That is the way. 
Q. Now, let us see. You will bathe a person, and then 
draw off the water? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then let in enough more, and then you would heat 
that by steam? A. Yes, sir. A large steam-pipe ran into the 
tub, — 1 should think a steam-pipe an inch or two inches in 
diameter, — perhaps two inches in diameter. 
Q. Did that open right into the tub? A. Yes, sir, it did. 
'There was a faucet in it. 
Q. You turned the faucet, and let the steam right into the 
tub? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Full head ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many would you bathe there? You had regular 
bathing days, T suppose. A. I never had but a very few who 
were able to go there. 
Q. Very few of yours were able to go? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They went on the regular bathing days, when other 
people were bathing? A. We had a separate day for bathing 
our patients. 
Q. How long would it take you to heat up that water? A. 
It would not take but a very few minutes. 
Q. Well, how many minutes? A. I should not think it 
would take more than three or five minutes to heat it up sulfi- 
de ntly. 
Q. Then you would put another one in? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, are you ready to swear, as I am afraid you were 
understood to say, by the way the question was put to you, that 
there never was anybody bathed in that institution in the same 
water that any other person was bathed in? A. I never did it 
myself. 
Q. You never did it yourself? A. No. sir. 
Q. Now, is that all you will say on that subject? A. No, 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300 
1675 
sir; I would say that I think I have seen two bathed in this 
building, but I had nothing to do with it. 
Q. I know. Stick to your text. You say you have seen 
two bathed in the same water. Where was that? A. That was 
in this main building where I used to send patients. 
Q. This was the main building where you sent patients? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Two bathed in the same water. Now, we have got two. 
Now, will you swear there were not more than two bathed in the 
same water? A. Yes, sir; I will swear, to the best of my 
recollection. 
Q. You recollect two, and there your recollection stops? 
A. I never recollect of seeing but two. I had no control over 
that. 
Q. Pardon me ; you are not to blame for it. I don’t think you 
did wrong. Don’t try to get clear from it. But I want to know 
what some other fellow did ; that is the fellow I am after. 
Now, won’t you tell me how many more bathed in the same 
water? You are not to blame for it at all. A. I never knew' 
of more than two, and I don’t know that I ever knew of but a 
few instances of that being done. 
Q. A few instances of two being done. Well, that is to saj- 
— were those all done on the same day, or different days ? 
A. Well, I don’t recall it being done only at one time; that is 
the only thing I recall. 
Q. At one time yrou remember there were several instances 
when there were two bathed in the same water. Anything 
special on that day, that you remember, that should cause that 
to be an unusual state of affairs? A. Well, it happened to 
occur to my memory, that is all. 
Q. But that happens to strike your memory? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Then that is the first time you ever saw such a thing 
done, is it not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You saw it for the first time ; and, seeing it for the first 
time, it struck your memory ; but after you got used to it, you 
don’t remember it? A. I don’t remember but one time, and 
I remember that by the circumstances, and the party that did it. 
Q. Who was he? A. The man that had charge of the 
bathing-tubs. 
Q. What is his name? A. . Joseph Parks, 
Q. Joseph Parker ? A. Parks. 1676 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What was he? A. He had charge of the bathing-tubs. 
Q. When was that? A. Well, I should think it was four 
or five years ago. 
Q. About five years ago? A. I should think so; some- 
where in that neighborhood. 
Q. What was his other business? A. He was a tailor. 
Mr. Brown. That is the man we have heard of before. 
Gov. Butler. No ; we have heard of his empty coffin before. 
We haven’t heard of him. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; we have heard of him and of his empty 
grave. 
Q. He was a tailor, and he had charge of the bathing, lie 
was an inmate, wasn’t he? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You knew him. A pretty clever gentleman, wasn’t he? 
A. I liked him very well, myself. 
Q. You all liked him? A. I believe he hadn’t many ene- 
mies ; he had some. 
Q. He was generally liked? A. Yes. sir. 
Q. Well, did you hear of inmates, after he died, going to 
put flowers on his grave? A. No, sir; I did not. 
Q. Did you ever go to his grave? A. No. sir; I never 
did. 
Q. Did you attend his funeral? A. No, sir. 
Q. Why not? He was a felkm you always liked. A. He 
didn’t die with me; he died in the other hospital. He was with 
me the most part of the time ; but he got so bad that he was sent 
to the principal hospital, and died there, and I didn’t know 
whether he died — I think he didn’t, though he might have 
died during my vacation, but I think he didn’t. 
Q. Now, wiry didn’t you attend his funeral? A. I don’t 
know. I was not in the way of knowing. A great many par- 
ties die, and I don’t know anything about them. It was so 
common a thing for people to die that I would not know. 
Q. You would not take any notice? A. I would not know 
about it if it was not under my supervision. 
Q. But where a man had a funeral you would know about it? 
A. I didn’t hear of his having any funeral. 
Q. What? A. I didn’t hear of his having any funeral, ex- 
cept what 1 have heard since the investigation. 
Q. Did you ever see his grave? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, now, he had been with }rou a good while? A. He 
had ; yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1677 
Q. He had been in the house a good while, in the institution? 
A. Yes, sir. I will qualify that. He was back and forth 
from one hospital to the other. If he got bad they would put 
him in the hospital, and if he got a little better they would send 
him to me. 
Q. When he convalesced, he came with you ; when he went 
bach, he went back to the hospital; and finally he died in the 
hospital. Now, what did he die of; consumption? A. I have 
heard it was. 1 think that is what they pronounced it. 
Q. What? A. I think that was what they pronounced it; 
yes, sir. 
Q. Should you pronounce it the same way ? You had him 
in charge. A. I should ; it was, to the best of my knowledge. 
I don’t pretend to be a physician. 
Q. Yes; he had consumption. Now, what had he done, 
this consumptive, to be splashing around in the water, bathing 
people? A. He didn’t bathe them ; that is to say, he superin- 
tended the bathing. He superintended, and he used to furnish 
clothes for them. When they wanted new pants, he would fur- 
nish them to them. When they came to bathe, if their pants 
were old or filthy, he would exchange them, and give them bet- 
ter, give them clean ones ; that was his duty. 
Q. Then French .Joe didn’t do that? A. It belonged to 
him to do it, but Parks volunteered to do it. 
Q. It belonged to French Joe to do it, but he didn’t do his 
duty, and Parks volunteered? A. He had the oversight of it, 
French Joe dill. He was about there. 
Q. French Joe had the oversight of it. And I suppose he 
did it when French Joe was on his visits to Boston, didn’t he? 
A. I never knew of his making visits to Boston in Parks’s 
time. 
Q. What? A. I never knew of French Joe’s making any 
visits to Boston in Parks’s time. 
Q. When did Parks die ? A. I won’t be sure ; but, if nry 
memory serves me, I think in 1878 or 1879, in October. 
Q. Parks’s time ran clear back of 1878 or 1879. So French 
Joe, if he came to Boston at all, came in that time, before 1878. 
Well, now, we will leave him. Now, do you know of any dead 
bodies being carried off from there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Ever hear of it? A. I have heard of it since this in- 
vestigation began. 1678 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I mean up to the time when this wicked investigation — 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Leave that out, because everybody knows about it now. 
And you were there four years, and never got the idea that any 
pauper’s body was transported awaj' anywhere? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Manning in his lifetime ? A. Never 
did ; no, sir. 
Q. Didn’t know that he was there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Ever been to his house? A. Never was. Have been 
down by it, but never in it. 
Q. Did 3’ou ever see him at the almshouse ? A. Never saw 
the man ; don’t know him ; never saw him in m3’ life. 
Q. Ever seen his team? A. Not to know it. I have seen 
teams and pleasure-wagons that he had, that the3’ used some- 
times ; that is a buggy, — not exactly — 
Q. You saw his bugg3r, but 30U never saw his other cart? 
A. I never saw it. 
Q. And you never knew that anything of the sort was being 
done? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never suspected it? A. Never did. 
Q. Never heard a word said about it, because if you had, 
you would have suspected it? A. Never anything said 
about it, because nobody knew about it, I suppose. I didn’t. 
Q. Now, you would not have felt very comfortable about it 
if 3’ou had known they were lugging them otf, and cutting them 
up? A. It would not have been anything that concerned me. 
Q. And you didn’t attend to anything that didn’t concern 
3’ou? A. All my duties were to see that those persons were 
properly cared for, and put into a collin. 
Q. And 3’ou took care of those, and did not attend to an3T 
other matters? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, almost anything might have been going on in 
other departments, and you not know anything more about it 
than 3 0U did about this ? A. I usually spent most of m3’ time 
in 11x3’ hospital. 1 didn’t know of the dead going awa3’ from 
there. 
Q. And there might have been an3’ quantity' of cruelty in the 
other wards and you would not know about it? A. No, sir; 
I should not know anything about it. 
Q. And there might have been any number of complaints, 
and you would not have known of them, except it was told 3'ou ; 
and no one would complain to you, except those old men and 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1679 
convalescents? Whatever was going on elsewhere, yon might 
as well have been here, as far as any notice you would have re- 
ceived, was concerned? 'A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, let us go a little to this bread business. Did you 
ever eat in the inmates’ dining-room? I don’t mean, now, in 
the hospital. A. I never did ; no, sir. 
Q. And what on earth they had to eat there you don’t know 
anything about? A. Yes, sir; I know that they had the same 
that they have had since I have been there. At the present 
time they are having — 
Q. Leave out the present time. I hope it is better now. I 
am going back. You never ate in the inmates’ dining-room, 
and what they had to eat you don’t know, do you? A. Yes, 
sir; I do. 
Q. How? A. Because I had the same food for my patients 
in the long ward. That is, I set two tables. 
Q. By the long ward, what do you mean ? A. I mean the 
first ward I was in. 
Q. Ward 19? A. After leaving the old building — 
Q. Wait a moment. You stayed in the old building four 
years? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, take it those four years, what do 3*011 know what 
the inmates had to eat? A. I don’t know anything about it, at 
that time. 
Q. That was four 3’ears from 1876? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They might have had fish and potatoes, or anything else? 
Now, then, you always ate at the officers’ table? A. I didn’t 
alwa3’S eat there ; occasionally. 
Q. Occasionally 3Tou were in the hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You never ate in the old men’s ward, I take it, during 
the four years? A. Well, the building I had might be called 
the old men’s ward, for the old men patients were sent from the 
old men’s ward to me. 
Q. I agree. We won’t go back over that again. But 3rou 
never ate in this long building, or whatever 3011 call it, — onl3r 
call it something, and stick to it. A. The hall is what it is 
called. 
Q. Did you ever eat-in the hall? A. I never did. 
Q. Then, for four years, 3*011 never ate in that? Did they 
have an officers’ bathing-tub there? A. In the hall? 
Q. In any place? A. An officers’ bathing-tub? I never 1680 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
bathed in any other tub than the regular tubs the inmates 
bathe in myself. 
Q. You always bathed there? A. I always did. 
Q. You always bathed there, and you always ate, excepting 
four years, at the officers’ table? A. I belong at the officers’ 
table. 
Q. And you have stuck to it. Well, now, they had white 
bread at the officers’ table? A. Yes, sir; white and brown 
both, and graham. 
Q. I am after the white. That was cooked in the officers’ 
kitchen, was it not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And was very good bread, was it not? A. I didn’t 
think it was anything extra. 
Q. Then, you are a little particular about your bread. Now, 
then, they had as good as they did have? A. It was good. 
Q. Did they have any chickens there ? A. Not very often ; 
no, sir. 
Q. Any turkeys ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Any squabs? A. No squabs. 
Q. Then, when there were squabs, the officers didn’t get 
them ? A. I never saw squabs. I don’t know what you mean 
by squabs. Do you mean pigeons ? 
Q. You don’t know what I mean by squabs? A. If you 
mean pigeons, I know what you mean. 
Q. I mean .young pigeons. I will tell you why I asked you, 
Mr. Smith. I find on the bills that squabs were bought, and 
I want to know where they went. A. Well, we had them oc- 
casionally. 
Q. Oh, you did? A. We had pigeons occasionally. 
Q. When? A. Occasionally. 
Q. I didn’t suppose you had them as a regular diet. A. 
Once or twice a year, sir. 
Q. In the early spring some time. Well, now, then, you 
had good coffee? A. Well, fair. I didn’t drink coffee; I 
drank tea mostly. 
Q. Then, how good the coffee was you don’t know? A. 
Yes, I have tasted it. 
Q. And there the}" had good tea? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And when you tell us that the tea was very fair and the 
coffee was fair, you mean in the hall? A. No, sir; I mean in 
the hospital. 
Q. In the hospital. Very well. Now, then, we have got 1883.] 
HOUSE—-No. 300. 
1681 
through four years when you didn’t know anything about the 
food. Now, we will go to the hospital. When did you go into 
the hospital as against the hall? A. I went on December 10, 
I think ; two years ago last December, I think it was. 
Q. That would be December, 1878, wouldn’t it? A. No; 
1880. 
Q. In that neighborhood. I thought it was two years and 
a half ago. And you have been in the hospital ever since ? A. 
No, sir ; I am not in the hospital now ; I am in the same building. 
It is separated b}T the dispensary. I have been in the other 
end of the building. 
Q. Well, how long did you remain in the hospital? A. I 
remained there about a year and a half, I think,— remained 
there until last August. 
Q. And then you were in that hospital. What class of 
patients were in that hospital? A. At the time when I went 
in there was a change. The males were sent where females had 
been. This room of mine in this building contained 76 beds, 
and I took up mj- patients from this building, No. 19,— I had 
34, and what I had I took those up, and that was not sufficient 
to fill the ward, and in order to fill the ward they were sent 
from the old men’s ward into m}- ward to fill up the beds. 
Q. And now, if I understand you, when you got into the 
new hospital this was changed, and you received your old pa- 
tients and enough new ones to make up the complement? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. So that really you are in about the same business? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And you had as much inmate help, I suppose, as you 
wanted, and rather more? A. Not at all times I did not. 
Q. So that up to last August you were substantially in the 
same business, only it was changed into a new building? A. 
That is all. 
Q. Now, then, when you changed your old patients into this 
new building was there any change in diet? A. Yes, sir ; I was 
going to that my patients that I had had still retained the 
hospital diet, and those that had come from the old men’s ward 
were furnished with what we called the hall diet. I had two 
tables. 
Q. You had one table with the hospital diet and the old men 
had another diet. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, did you ever eat at that old men’s table in that 1682 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
ward, up to last August ? A. I have drank the tea there, and 
I think I have eaten bread. Yes, sir ; I think I have. 
Q. You have drank the tea? A. Yes, sir ; I had my choice. 
I could have the hospital tea, or I could have that. 
Q. What? A. I sometimes used to think that the tea that 
the inmates had was stronger than that we had at the hospi- 
tal. 
Q. Than you had at the hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you went for the strongest tea? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Sometimes there were different grades of weakness, and 
you took that which seemed less weak. And that was the only 
difference you saw? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, state what difference in diet there was on those two 
tables. A. They had, in addition, butter ; in the morning and 
at night they had butter. 
Q. That is, in the hospital part of it? A. Yes, sir; and 
molasses. 
Q. And they had molasses ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Any otheK difference ? A. Yes, sir ; they had pudding. 
They had mush, or rice, or corn starch, with milk, for their din- 
ner. 
Q. Those were hospital people? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, you told us that one objection they had to 
their food was that they had the same thing every day? A. Well, 
I was speaking then — the food in the hospital was some differ- 
ent ; the food at the hall was the same, and the food at the 
hospital was different food — somewhat different. The only 
difference breakfast and supper was that they had butter and 
molasses. 
Q. The only difference from the others ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But this food was such that you made the criticism that 
it was the same every day. Now what' was it? What was the 
main article, in the hospital or the hall? It was the same thing 
except butter ? A. No, sir ; I said pudding. 
Q. Well, leave out the pudding. A. Well, they had in 
the hospital, on Thursday, roast beef. 
Q. They had roast beef of a Thursday in the hospital? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And among the inmates they* didn’t? A. No, sir. 
Q. Very well; now let us get what their diet was that }*ou 
say was the same every day. Commence in the morning, — 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300 
1683 
Monday morning— and wliat was it? A. Well, you mean the 
old men’s or the hospital ? 
Q. I mean those that made complaint of having the same 
every day. If you will go along and tell me what they had one 
day, then if you mean every day, I will get it all. I want to 
get what you meant when you said it was the same every day. 
I want you to give me a description of the food you were talk- 
ing about. A. Well, in the old men’s they had plain bread 
and coffee for breakfast. 
Q. That is to say, the whole diet was bread and coffee ? A. 
In the morning ; }’es, sir. 
Q. Well, at noon. A. At noon, on Mondays, I think they 
had corn-beef. I think they had the same that they had in the 
hall oh Mondays. 
Q. But now we are in the hall, sir? A. Well, in the hall— 
Q. I want the inmates — I want now, if you will tell me — 
A. Yes, sir; yes, sir; yes, sir. 
Q. If you will tell me, those inmates in the hall who had 
hospital diet. Now they had coffee and bread in the morning, 
and corned beef and potatoes at noon? A. Yes, sir ; and rice 
pudding and sauce. 
Q. Rice pudding and sauce. Very well; what at night? 
A. At night they had tea and bread, unless specially ordered. 
Sometimes they might have milk or something specially ordered 
different. 
Q. The next day and the next day of the week would be 
the same? A. It would be the same diet. 
Q. And on Thursdays the hospital people got some roast 
beef? A. Yes, sir. And they got milk and pudding every 
day, which the others didn’t get. 
Q. Which the old men didn’t get? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now you said this was dark bread? A. It was not 
very dark. 
Q. No; not very. I only want to know — it was darker 
than the bread they made in the oflicers’ kitchen, was it not? 
A. Yes, sir ; a little darker. 
Q. And sometimes it would be a little sour? A. I never 
knew; I don’t think I ever knew more than two instances in 
which it was sour. 
Q. You only knew of two. I suppose you didn’t eat this 
sour bread ; and this dark bread on the officers’ table, that was 1684 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the bread cooked elsewhere? A. Yes, sir.. That would come 
from the Captain’s table. 
Q. Now, during all the time you were there, did you ever see 
any of this dark bread served on the officers’ table? A. 1 think 
that the graham bread was. 
Q. Leave out the graham bread? A. The brown bread, I 
think is served. 
Q. Will you answer my question ? Did you ever see any of 
this dark bread served on the officers’ table? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never. And you were there all the time as constantly 
as you have told us, and only went away one day in a month? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, you would not quite credit the story of somebody 
who should say that as a rule he ate this dark bread at the offi- 
cers’ table because he preferred it, would you? A. Well, if he 
meant the graham bread or the brown bread — 
Q. Well, I am not talking about the graham bread or the 
brown bread? A. I can conceive of a man taking it in pref- 
erence. 
Q. I know ; a lively imagination could. I am not talking 
about conceiving, but how could he get it if it was not there? 
Suppose he conceived, how could he get it? A. He could 
carry it there if he wished. 
Q. Yes ; he could carry it there. Now, *lo you know any- 
thing about these babies dying so fast there? A. Yes, sir. 
I was in the building next to them. 
Q. Do you know what was done with them? A. I don’t; 
no, sir. 
Q. Did you ever see? You don’t know what was done with 
a single one of them? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, now, you have been asked about people dying in 
the same ward where they were sick, and going through the 
death scene without being carried an}’ where else. After the 
death scene took place, were they put into the box from the. 
bed? A. Where a patient dies we usually take off his cloth- 
ing and wash him thoroughly, all over, and then put on suitable 
clothing for him. 
Q. Suitable grave clothing? A. Yes, sir; a sufficient 
covering. Then we usually lay him out and leave him. After 
he is prepared for burial, we usually send for the doctor to have 
him see him and see that he is really dead. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
1685 
Q. Now where is all that done? A. It is done in the 
ward. 
Q. On what? A. Immediately, after I prepare a person 
or a patient for burial, if the doctor is handy I tell him that 
such a man is dead. 
Q. Leave out the doctor. I am asking where the man is 
prepared for his burial? A. In the ward. 
Q. On what; on his bed? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. On the bed? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. After the doctor has certified him to be dead, is there a 
coffin brought in and the body put into it? A There is; yes, 
sir. 
Q. There is a coffin brought in by the side of his bed and he 
is put into it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, are you very particular to put on good and proper 
grave clothing for these men? A We usually put on a good 
clean shirt on to him, and then there are two nice sheets, pur- 
posely for men that die, that we call grave sheets and that have 
never been used. 
Q. And that is done in every case? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And has been for years? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, if you had known that all that was going to hap- 
pen to that man, or to a majority of them, was that the}!' would 
be taken out into the dead-house and taken out of the coffin and 
tucked into Mr. Manning’s transportation box, what was the 
use in going through all that performance? A. Well, that 
was my orders ; I went no further than that. 
Q. Carried off to be cut up. You always prepared, every 
body for the grave; that was your orders? A. That was my 
orders. 
Q. And you followed them. Who gave you those orders ? 
A. It was given to me by the physician. That is, it has 
always been the custom to do so. 
Q. It has always been the custom ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Tom Marsh knew that you were doing that? A. He 
would not usually ; no, sir. 
Q. Why shouldn’t he usually know ; didn’t he ever come in, 
except to announce that official visitors were coming? A. He 
might have, but I have known of no such thing as his coming 
in when there was a body in preparation. 
Q. Well, now, all over, — and this was your continual cus- 
tom? A. Yes, sir. 1686 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Were those sheets made on purpose for this use? A. 
They were ; yes, sir ; they were new cloth. 
Q. And the shirts were new? A. No, sir; the shirts were 
not new ; they were house shirts ; clean shirts ; washed shirts. 
Q. Belonged to the house? A. Yes, sir; clean shirts, 
such as inmates would put on. 
Q. Then the State property was taken and put on around 
these corpses. Did they receive a decent burial ? Did you ever 
attend a funeral there? A. I never attended a funeral; there 
was no funeral there. The body was taken from the place and 
taken to the chapel and services were held there. 
Q. I didn’t suppose there was a funeral in the hospital — in 
your ward ; I didn’t suppose you held a funeral; but if a man 
died there the body was laid out there. Did you ever attend a 
funeral at that hospital? A. Never of an inmate ; I have of 
attendants, but never of an inmate. 
Q. Never did attend the funeral of an inmate? A. Never 
did. 
Q. Did you ever know of one ; A. I never attended any. 
Q. Never knew of one? A. Never, except what 1 read 
about Parks. 
Q. Leave out what was talked about, what j’ou have read 
since this investigation began. A. I never knew of one. 
Q. Well, that is queer; that is odd! Well, how many 
officers have you known to die there in a year ? A. I think 
there were two died there, I would not be sure, in very nearly 
a year, I think; a former Mr. French and, I think, a Mr. 
Pope — they died very near together. 
Q. How do they average? A. I could not tell. I think 
some four or five have died since I have been there. 
Q. That is nearly six years and a half. Now, I find some- 
where here in the auditor’s report an item of $260 for the 
services of a chaplain. Did you ever attend church in that 
establishment? A. 1 have. 
Q, What? A. I have. 
Q. How often? A. Well, when I first went there I used 
to go nearly every Sabbath. 
Q. How much do 3011 go now? A. I have not been so 
much of late. 
Q. Well, has there been any service there? A. Service 
every Sabbath. 
Q. Chaplain there? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1687 
Q, Well, now, let us see how I shall find it in another place. 
Here is the report for 1876. The time you went every Sunday 
they didn’t pay anything? A. I have always understood, 1 
never knew from my own knowledge, but I have always under- 
stood they received five dollars. 
Q., That must have been a contribution, so far as I can see. 
There never was any chaplain there regularly? A. No, sir. 
Q. In 1877 there was paid $265. A. Of late I have been 
told that each chaplain who officiates at a funeral receives one 
dollar. 
Q. But you have been one of the unfortunate men who 
never saw a funeral there, except that of an officer? A. No, 
sir; I never had a call to go to any other. 
Q. Well, there were a good many men buried there who 
have been under jour charge, so that you were quite well 
acquainted with them? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Here in 1876 it is $265. They always had 
just the same amount for chaplain every year. 
Mr. Chester moved to adjourn. 
Gov. Butler. [To the witness.] I wish you would not talk 
with anybody about this evidence you are giving until I see you 
in the morning. 
Adjourned to meet on Friday, May 25, at 9.30 a.m. 1688 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
THIRTY-EIGHTH HEARING. 
Friday, May 25. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a. m., Sena- 
tor Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Henry A. Smith (recalled) 
Mr. Brown. I have forgotten whether }rou had finished the 
cross-examination, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I only want to ask Mr. Smith one or two more 
questions. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) There was no other man by the 
name of Smith at the institution who was an attendant there, 
to your knowledge? A. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. 
Gov. Butler. What is that man’s name that has testified 
here ? 
The Chairman. Kelliher? 
Gov. Butler. No ; Timothy Kelliher I know ; but this man 
is the one who said he would not go back, and has gone back. 
Mr. Brown. Haberlin. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Then }tou are the Mr. Smith that 
Mr. Haberlin testified was the only decent man in the institu- 
tion— must have been if there was not any other. Well, now, 
Mr. Smith, I want you to tell me whether, upon the whole, you 
never did hear any complaint there, of hard usage — we won’t 
call it cruelty? A. I never had an}' in my department. 
Q. I know; Mr. Haberlin has testified about that. A. I 
have heard since the investigation. 
Q. Well, leave out since the investigation. A. I never 
heard anj'thing until it wras said in the investigation. 
Q. I don’t ask whether some things have been stated in the 
investigation ; I want to know whether, during all these years — 
A. I have heard those things that have been testified in the 
investigation. 
Q Before the investigation? A. No, sir; I don’t think I 
heard them until since the investigation has been going on. 1883. ] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1689 
Q. How closely 3-011 stick to that phrase ; where did you get 
that? A. Well, I have read in the papers, and it has been 
talked over verj- freely. 
Q. Where did you get that phrase that 3’ou use, exactly like 
a parrot, every time? Who told you that? Q. What phrase, 
sir. 
Q. “Never heard of any until since the investigation.’ 
That phrase. A. I have not known of an3' until within some two 
or three months. I have heard inmates speak of complaints 
within two or three months. 
Q. You have heard inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Leave those out, if 3Tou please. I want to know now, 
didn’t 3’ou ever hear of any complaint about an3-thing before 
the time of the investigation — now leave that out altogether — 
Didn’t 3*ou hear anybody complain of anybody? A. Not of 
any particular thing. 
Q. I don’t want any particular thing now. Did 3rou ever 
hear anybody complain of anything? A. I don’t remember, 
in my remembrance, of hearing much complaint made. 
Q. I don’t ask whether 3*011 heard much. Answer my ques- 
tion. Did you ever hear any man complain of anything; man 
or woman? A. Well, I would not be likely to hear much about 
it unless it was in m3- department. 
Q. Well, I agree there is not much complaint there, and I 
suppose that is the reason wiry you are brought here. A. I 
would not swear that I had not heard. 
Q. No, I think you would not. Haven’t you heard, leaving 
out everything since this investigation — don’t tell me that 
again — haven’t 3-011 heard, during the years you have been 
there, of people who have been struck? A. I don’t think I 
have heard of any one being struck until within some two 
months. 
Q. Have they- been striking anybody within two months ? 
Mr. Brown. That is under the new management. 
Gov. Butler Wait a minute. 
Q. Do you mean they have been striking them ? A. I don’t 
know of my- own knowledge about it. 
Q. I don’t ask yum of y-our own knowledge. A. I have 
heard.that they- have been struck. 
Q. How long ago? A. I should say within two months. 
Q. Did you ever hear of it before? A. Never heard of 1690 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
any until within a short time. Until within two months I don’t 
think I have heard an}7 complaint that anybody has been struck. 
Q. Will you swear you have never heard complaints of any- 
body being struck until within two months? A. I don’t 
remember of any. 
Q. I don’t ask you to remember a particular instance. Will 
you swear you never heard of any until within two months? A. 
Not to my recollection. 
Q. Not to your recollection? A. No, sir. 
Q. I don’t ask you whether you recollect the person. A. I 
did not hear any complaint of any striking until within two 
months. I don’t remember of hearing of any one being struck, 
or improperly used, until within two months. 
Q. Never at all. All right. Now, then, did you ever hear 
any complaint of anything that happened there, leaving out 
within two months? A. I don’t know that I did, any particular 
complaint. 
Q. Did you ever hear any general complaint? A. Well, 
no more than would be necessary. It would be impossible to 
satisfy so many people without complaint. 
Q. Well, without its being impracticable or necessary—I 
don’t want you to judge of it — I want to know what the thing 
was and judge for myself. Because if you remember whether it 
was impracticable or necessary you remember the thing. A. I 
don’t remember any complaint being made until within two 
months. 
Q. Where did you get the phrase “within two months?” 
A. Well, the cases I have known of have occurred within a 
period of two months. 
Q. You have known of cases that have occurred within a 
period of two months? A. I have not known of my own 
knowledge, only by hearsay. 
Q. Well, do you know of any cases that have happened 
within two months? A. I have heard that there have been 
patients struck and jumped on. 
Q. That is all within two months? A. I should not think 
it was more than two months since I heard of it. 
Q. Well, will you swear you didn’t hear of it more than two 
months ago? A. I would not swear to the exact period, but 
it was within a very short time that I heard of it; I would not 
swear to the exact date. 
Q. I don’t want you to swear to the exact date. Well, you 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1691 
heard of this investigation, did yon, when it began? A. I 
did, sir ; I read of it. 
Q. Now, that fixes a time. Now, will 3011 swear that }'Ou 
never heard anything before that date ? A. I don’t remember 
to have heard anything. 
Q. Would you swear you did not? A. I would swear I 
have no remembrance of it. 
Q. Who first talked with you about your testimony? A. I 
have not had any talk about it. 
Q. Ever tell anybody what 3'ou knew or what you would 
testify to? A. I told them I should testify to the truth as near 
as I could. 
Q. Whom did you tell that to? A. I could not say. 
Q. Do you remember telling that to somebody? A. I 
could not remember ; we have been talking the subject over ; it 
has been continually agitated every day. 
Q. Who did you agitate it with? A. Well, it has been 
agitated with inmates, officers and all hands. 
Q. All hands have been agitating it every day. Anybody 
besides inmates and officers? A. No, sir; 1 have had nobody 
to talk with. 1 haven’t been anywhere else to talk with any- 
body else. 
Q. I know, but somebody might have been to }rou. A. No, 
sir ; there has been nobody to me. 
Q. Well, now, what officers have you talked with? A. 
Well, I suppose I have talked with all of them more or less. 
Q. Well, now, give me the names of some of them, or let 
me ask you : ever talk with Mr. Marsh, the Captain? A. No, 
sir; he never said anything to me about it. 
Q Very well; leave him out. Ever talk with Tom Marsh, 
Jr.? A. No, sir. 
Q. Leave him out. Ever'talk with Charles Mai’sh? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Leave him out. Ever talk with the old lad}T? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Leave her out. Ever talk with Dr. Lathi’op? A. No, sir. 
Q. Leave him out. Ever talk with either of the other 
doctors? A. No, sir. 
Q. Leave them out. Now, who did you talk with? A. 
Well, I have talked with some of the help and some of the 
attendants. 1692 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Who are the attendants ? A. I could not say ; I have 
probably talked with most all of them. 
Q. Did an}’ of them talk with you? A. Well, it was gen- 
erally remarked at the table, and talked about every day. 
Q. Then that means where the Marshes were present? A. 
No, sir ; they didn’t dine at our table. We had a separate table. 
Q. It was talked over every day? A. Yes, sir; we had 
conversation. 
Q. You told me you never attended a funeral. You told 
me, yesterday, that you were a good deal overworked. A. I 
was, at one time. Most of the time I have had a very comfort- 
able time of it; with the exception of a 3’ear and a half, when I 
had rather more than I could attend to. 
Q. You were not under obligation to stay there, were you ? 
A. No, sir. I was going to leave and I was requested to sta}'. 
They wanted me to stay. I was on the point of leaving at two 
different times. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You haven’t had any talk with coun- 
sel? A. No, sir. 
Q. ■ Never exchanged a word with him, did you ? A. No, sir; 
not to my knowledge. 
Q. Did you ever see him before you came into this room ? 
A. I did. " 
Q. Where? A. At Tewksbury, I think, at a political 
meeting. I heard 3 011 speak. 
Gov. Butler. We will find out about that. Thank you. 
You have put 3?our foot into it, Mr. Brown. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You never had an3T talk with me 
about this case ? A. Never. 
Q. Until 3rou came into this room? A. No, sir. 
Q. You speak about these complaints, and 3rou sa3r that the3r 
are all within two months, according to the best of your recol- 
lection? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Will 3rou swear to this, that they have all started since 
His Excellenc3T was inaugurated? A. Yes ; I think I could. 
Q. You will swear to that? A. I think I could. 
Gov. Butler. I will agree to that. 
Q. Now, 3rou spoke about the funerals of inmates. You 
stated 3Tou never saw the funeral of an inmate? A. Well, we 
never were accustomed — 
Q. Now, I want 30U to explain what religious services were 
had on the occasion of the death of an inmate. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1693 
Gov. Butler. Did he ever see any? 
The Witness. I never saw them ; but I know that after an 
inmate was properly prepared and put in a coffin, he was taken 
into the chapel and services were read over him. 
Q. Do you know who performed this service? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Who? A. At one time Mr. French, the miuister at 
Tewksbury Centre. 
Gov. Butler. Does this man say that he was there? 
Q. Were you there at any time? A. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Then I won’t go into that. 
Gov. Butler. He has been filled up again over night. 
Q. Mr. Smith, have you had any conversation with any- 
body about this case since you left the stand yesterday? A. 
No, sir ; I refused to speak to anybody; I told them His Ex- 
cellency forbade me to speak about it. 
Q. And you obeyed the injunction of His Excellency? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Yrou see, Governor, he was not filled up over 
night. 
Gov. Butler. He said he didn’t speak with anybody. He 
has not said that they didn’t fill him up. I will ask him the 
question, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Hasn’t somebody talked to you? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Then how could you tell them that His Excellency told 
you not to talk about it? A. They would commence, and I 
would tel! them that His Excellency told me not to talk about 
it, and then the}" would go away. 
Q. How man}7 of them came in that way? A. I don’t think 
there was more than one or two. 
Q. Who were they? A. Well, the baker was one. 
Q. Anything said about funerals? A. No, sir. He had 
read the testimony in the paper ; he had got a paper in Lowell. 
Q. I understand. He had read the testimony, and he talked 
about the funerals and about your saying that you never 
attended any ? A. No, sir ; I didn’t speak about it. 
Q. Did he talk to you about it? A. I didn’t give him any 
information. 
Q. Did he give you any? A. No, sir. He told me what 
he saw in the Lowell paper, and I made no comments about it. 
Q. Now, I want to go to another matter. 1694 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. Hadn’t you better wait until I get through ? 
Gov. Butler. Hadn’t you got through? 
Mr. Brown. No, no. 
Gov. Butler. I beg your pardon ; I beg your pardon. 
Q. You say that this man Parks, the tailor, at one time had 
charge of the bathing under French Joe, and that you saw two 
persons bathed in the same water? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want 3rou to tell me fully about that? A. Well, 
at one time, I think, there was some trouble that they didn’t 
have sufficient water or sufficient steam ; there was some reason 
that they were not able to handle each one separately. 
Gov. Butler. Just turn your head this way. 
The Witness. I think there was some trouble of shortness 
of watei-, or something of that kind, why it was done. 
Q. That is, on that particular day? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you recollect any other instance except one? A. 
That is the only one I recall now, that particular case. 
Q. Well, was anything said or done about that? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Was the condition of either of the persons bathed in 
that water exceedingly filthy? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you know who the persons were? A. 1 could not 
remember ; it was five or six years ago. 
Q. Was that down in the bathing-room under the office? A. 
it was down in the bathing-room. It was down in the bathing- 
room where they used to keep inmates’ clothes, and where 
French Joe is. The bathing-room has been changed since then. 
It was formerly in the room kept by French Joe, where inmates’ 
clothing was kept and registered ready for delivery. 
Gov. Butler. Is that all? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Hold on a moment. You told 
brother Brown the first time you saw him was at a political 
meeting at Tewksbury ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When was that? A. Last fall, I think. 
Q. Did he stop at the institution? A. I could not say 
whether he remained over night. He was there before the com- 
mencement of the meeting. 
Q. You don’t know whether he stayed over night or not? 
A. I do not recollect. 
Q. How late was the meeting held; was it in the evening? 
A. I think we got through at half-past nine or ten. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1695 
Q. Do you know of any train that goes away from Tewks- 
bury after that? A. I could not say; I am not acquainted with 
the trains that go late. 
Mr. Brown. I can save you a great deal of trouble. I 
stopped — 
Gov. Butler. You need not save me any trouble. I don’t 
want any of your assistance. I am getting along nicely. 
Q. Now, did he take his supper there? A. I could not 
say, sir ; I think I saw him in the office. I happened to pass in 
on business, and I saw him in the office. 
Q. Did you go to the meeting? A. I did. 
Q. Did you see him there? A. I heard him speak ; yes, 
sir. 
Q. Did he speak with you? A. I saw him at the political 
meeting ; yes, sir. 
Q. And heard his speech ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ride over with him? A. I think I was on the 
way, walking along, and they came and they took me into the 
carriage — Mr. Marsh did — and took me up to the meeting. 
Q. You were riding in the carriage of the institution? A. 
I think it was the carriage that they used; yes, sir. E think 
it is the same carriage that they use when they go down to the 
village. 
Q. It was the omnibus. Well, did you come back with 
him? A. No, sir; I came back afoot. 
Q. Did you see him come back? A. No, sir. I think 
after he came back we had a collation at Mr. Foster’s. 
Q. Well, there is a new extravagance at the institution? 
A. It was not connected with the institution ; it was a private 
affair. 
Mr. Brown. He says this collation was at Mr. Foster’s, not 
at the institution. I see you are laughing without knowing 
what you are laughing for. 
Q. Here was a use of the State property in conveying elec- 
tioneers around against me, was there not? A. 1 didn’t hear 
anything said against you, sir. 
'I’he Chairman. It don’t appear yet on which side he spoke. 
Gov. Butler. Have you any doubt of it, sir; I will ask1 
him if you have any doubt. I didn’t know where all the cam- 
paign fund came from ; I do now — some of it. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) Mr. Witness, I want to ask you 
about this bathing. 1 understand you had charge of some sev- 1696 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
enty or eighty? A. Yes, sir; upwards of that. I used to 
bathe those that were outside and took their meals there. 
Q. Some of the witnesses have spoken about a great rnaiy 
of those who were bathed having sores upon them. How is 
that in your experience? How many in seventy or eighty 
would have running sores upon their persons? 
Gov. Butler. These were the old men, convalescents? 
The Witness. Well, there were some few in there; not 
maiy ; the3r were al\va3rs mixed complaints and diseases 
Q. You would not undertake to give any number? A. No, 
sir ; the cases of sores were mostly in the other hospital — the 
principal hospital. 
Testimony of Phebe B. Spear {sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Phebe B. Spear. 
Q. What is your present occupation? A. Matron of the 
Girls’ Friendly Society. 
Q. Where is that located? A. At 51 Temple Street. 
Q. And were you at one time connected with the Chardon 
Street Home? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When was that? When did you leave? A. Two years 
ago. 
Q. What was your position there? A. Matron. 
Q. How long were you matron? A. Ten years. 
Q. So that carries 3?ou back to about 1871 ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, you were present here yesterday, and 3011 saw 
these records that we saw? A. No, sir; I didn’t come in un- 
til afterwards. 
Q. They will be here in a moment. Did you send children 
from Chardon Street Home to Tewksbuiy? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Under whose direction is the Chardon Street Home at 
present ? 
Gov. Butler. Or was it then. 
The Witness. It is the same now as then. 
Q. It is under the management of whom? A. The over- 
seers of the poor. The committee are chosen from the over- 
seers of the poor. 
Q. Now, in 1876, ’77 and ’78 who where the committee of 
the overseers of the poor that had the management of the Char- 
don Street Home? A. I am not quite positive about the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1697 
time when I went there, but I think Dr. Fabyan and Mr. Buckley 
wci’e the committee. They died, and I don’t remember who 
succeeded them. 
Q. Well, who succeeded them? A. Mr. Temple, Dr. 
Crane and Mr. Bigelow. Dr. Crane resigned. 
Q. So then it was either Dr. Allen, Dr. Fabyan or Mr. 
Buckle}', or Mr. Crane or Mr. Temple or Mr. Bigelow who had 
charge. Now, did you receive from them instructions in re- 
gard to the children that should be sent to Tewksbury? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, following those instructions, tell me what children 
out of those received at the Chardon Street Home }Tou sent to 
Tewksbury ? A. The most miserable ones. Those that I felt 
were not suitable for adoption, and that they were not willing 
to take in other institutions. 
Q. Those that were not suitable for adoption or which in- 
stitutions were not willing to take? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was the Massachusetts Infant Asylum one of the insti- 
tutions that came there to take children? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. During those three years ? A. Yes, sir. Well, they did 
more or less all the time. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t hear you. 
The Witness. They took them from there all the time, when- 
ever we had good healthy children. 
Q. Now, I open this record, volume one, page 139, date 
Nov. 9, 1872. Is that your handwriting? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now we go on with that until we come to May 29, 1876 : 
“ Sent to State almshouse at Tewksbury, Jessie Holgrave, 
doubtful.” I notice on this register you use the terms “ doubt- 
ful,” “feeble,” “fair,” and “good.” I want you to tell me 
who made that classification of children as they came in there. 
A. I did. 
Q. And have you ever been educated as a physician ? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. How did you make that record ? A. To the best of my 
judgment. « 
Q. What opportunity did you have for making that record 
when you made it? A. The condition of the children was 
such that it was easy to see. 
Q. You made a personal examination of each child? A. 
Yes, sir. 1698 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Then you entered there what in your judgment was a 
fair description? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now I want to ask you as to the physical condition of 
the children when the}" were brought to the Chardon Street 
Home — these foundlings. A. They were, most of them, very 
poor. 
Q. What else can you say about them? A. Many of them 
were drugged ; many of them were chilled, and they were in 
poor condition ever}’ way. 
Gov. Butler. I am sorry to say, I suppose it is my fault, 
but I cannot hear you. 
The Witness. They were very poor. The children had been 
chilled by being exposed to the cold; there were many of them 
drugged, and a great many of them, I presume, never had any 
health at all. 
Q. Many diseased ? A. Well, not apparently. 
Q. Now, did you ever know any to die immediately upon 
being received at the institution? A. I think I had one or 
two that died very shortly; I don’t remember exactly, but I 
think we did. 
Q. How long after a child was received at the Chardon Street 
Home would it be before this record would be made? A. Well, 
if they were brought in at night the record would be made in 
the morning ; and if brought in the morning it would be made 
very soon after. 
Q. Well, it would be made, 1 suppose, as a general thing, 
within twelve hours? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And they stayed there frequently some little time, some 
number of days? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And I suppose it was unfrequently the case that the con- 
dition of the child would materially change between the time 
when the record was made, or the information was obtained 
upon which the record was made, and the time when it was sent 
to Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now I want to know, Mrs. Spear, — in selecting children 
for Tewksbury, what children did you*send out of all that were 
received at the Chardon Street Home during all those years. 
A. The poorest; those that I felt I could not provide a home 
for elsewhere. 
Gov. Butler. Won’t you repeat that? 
The Witness. Those that were feeble and miserable and 
that X felt X could not provide a home for. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1699 
Q. Did the matter of j our ability to provide a home for a 
child depend upon its physical condition? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. To what extent? A. Well, no one would adopt a child 
that was sick. 
Q. That you found as the result of your experience —- that 
no one would adopt a child that was sick ; that no other insti- 
tution would take them unless they were healthy, and that 
your last resort was Tewksbury? A. Tewksbury was the last 
resort. 
Q. Those records that you made, I suppose, were honestly 
made, according to your best knowledge and belief? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And when you put down that a child was in good health 
it was in good health? A. I felt so. 
Q. So far as you know? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And when you put down that it was in fair health you 
thought it was in fair health ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When you put down that it was sick j'ou believed it was 
sick? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And when you put down it was diseased you believed it 
was diseased? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, having got so far — you gave your honest 
opinion and jrou took daylight to make that investigation ; if it 
was night you looked after them in the morning, and you had a 
good deal of experience. Now, will you tell me, can jtou tell 
me about how many you got adopted from July 22, 1876, to 
November 6, 1878. A. No, sir; I could not. 
Q. Could you tell me about how many? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, we have run over this — and I will verify it if my 
brother wants me to — and we find two in good health adopted ; 
one fair health adopted ; one good sent to St. Mary’s Hospital 
— that is a Catholic institution? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And one “excellent” to St. Mary’s Hospital, and four 
“ good ” to Dr. Dixwell. That is }Toiir record.' Then we have, 
during these years, ten out of the whole number adopted. And 
how many was the whole number? [To Mr. Records.] You 
can tell that In five minutes, because there is one on each page. 
— We find by that register that you received during that period 
84, we find that you adopted 10 and that left 72, and we find 
that you sent 71 to Tewksbury. There was not much picking 
and choosing of the rest of them. A. We always sent those 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1700 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that we felt would not live. Those went to Tewksbury that we 
felt there was no chance for. Nothing good ever went to Tewks- 
bury. 
Q. Sure about that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Sure about that? A. Not of my sending. 
Q. What? A. Not of my sending. 
Q. Well, this was your time, was it not? A. Nothing 
good ever went to Tewksbury. 
Q. Well, let us see if there didn’t. It shows how easy it is 
to bp mistaken. Won’t you just turn to some of the good 
ones. [Page 246.] That is all in your handwriting? A. No, 
sir ; that is not. 
Q. This was in your time. Whose handwriting is that? A. 
Mr. Doe’s. 
Q. Who is Mr. Doe? A. He was superintendent. 
Q. Was he over you or under you? A. Well, he did his 
part of the work and I did mine. I was matron and he was 
superintendent. 
Q, Well, this was made by Mr. Doe? A. He made that; 
y7es, sir. 
Q. Well, this was in your time. Here we have “ Henrietta 
Weston, female, white, blue eyes, brown hair, on steps of house 
occupied by H. Woods, Ashland Street, 4th October, after- 
noon ; about a month old ; November 7, 8.30, brought to home ; 
Officer Newcomb, Station Five; physical condition good; 
December 19” —some daj7s afterward— “sent to State alms- 
house, Tewksbury.” A. Well, I presume when it was taken it 
was thought to be good. I presume when we took it it was 
thought to be good and it proved afterwards not to be. 
Gov. Butler. Now, that was that case. Now, we will try 
again. 
Mr. Brown. How many days after it was received before it 
was sent to Tewksbury? 
Mr. Records. One month and twelve days. 
Gov. Butler. Now, let us see what happened to this child. 
It went to Tewksbury; now let us see what happened to it. 
Mr. Records. It went on the 19th of December and lived 
until the 12th of January7, 1877 — 24 days. 
Q. Now 259. Is that your handwriting? A. No, sir. 
Q. None of it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, then, here is “Berinda Gould, female, white, dark 
eyes, brown hair, in the entry of the house occupied by E. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1701 
Perry, 42 Auburn Street, 8 p.m., April 27, good ; May 8 sent 
to Tewksbury, two weeks old.” This is the superintendent’s 
handwriting? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Might not you or the other matron have made the exam- 
ination and he put it down? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He didn’t make the examination? A. No, sir. 
Q. And therefore this was made from your examination 
although he put it down. A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. How long did that child live? 
Mr. Records. Twenty-eight days. 
Gov. Butler. Which is more than the average life in Tewks- 
bury. Now, let us go to the next one — page 261. 
Mr. Records. Page 274 was the next good one. 
Gov. Butler. Well, let us take 274. 
Q. Is that your handwriting? A. No, sir; that is the same 
as the other. 
Q. Then there is not much of your handwriting in this book, 
is there? However, I don’t suppose it is of any consequence 
Here we have “ Richard B romp ton, male, white, hazel eyes, 
dark brown hair, on steps 157 Meridian Street, East Boston, 
August 25 — ” 
Mr. Brown. What year? 
Gov. Butler. 1877, sir. “Came in August 24, 11.15 a. m., 
Officer Davis; physical condition good; September 4, 1877, 
State almshouse, Tewksbury.” That was sent in about ten 
days ; what became of that one? 
Mr. Records. Died September 8, —41 da}’s. 
Gov. Butler. Try again. Try one more. 
Mr. Records, No. 289. 
Gov. Butler. “ Jessie Churchill, female, white, blue e}res, 
brown hair, from City Temporary Home ; birthplace, born at 
City Temporary Home on Harrison Avenue, November 26, 
1877; December 14, age 18 days; Susan Churchill was her 
parent; brought to the Home 14th December, good condition, 
and on the 18th was sent to the State almshouse. 
Mr. Records. Died 7th January, 1878,— 20 days. That was 
the average life of all those that went from this Home to 
Tewksbury. 
Mr. Brown. Now, there is only one more “ good.” 
Gov. Butler. Well, I will look at that one, certainly. 
Mr. Records. No. 292. 
Gov. Butler. Now, here is a case: “Josiah Hilwar$? CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
1702 
male, white, blue eyes, brown hair, steps of 20 Ash Street, Jan. 
21, 1878, 9 p. m., about two days old, by Thomas Lyford ; 11 
p. m., Jan. 21,’78, Officer A. J. Bennett; physical condition 
good ; Feb. 2, city hospital, sick, scarlet fever, to be returned 
on recovery ; recovered from scarlet fever” — could stand that 
— “and on the 13th of February returned from city hospital, 
and on the 26th sent to Tewksbury almshouse.” 
Mr. Records. Died March 5. 
Q. Now, madam, we have got this condition of things, that 
out of 84 infants you received, you got adopted or sent to St. 
Mary’s Home or to Dr. Dixwell, 10 ; that brought it down to 
72 ; one died at the home, and the other 71 w’ere sent to Tewks- 
bury. Now, what picking and choosing was there, except those 
for adoption ? Every one went to Tewksbury that did not die 
or was not adopted. Now, .you say you were instructed by 
somebody to send them. Will }tou swear to this committee that 
an}’ overseer of the poor, or an}’ committee of the overseers of 
the poor ever instructed you to send a dying child to Tewks- 
bury? Because J would like to find that inhuman man? A. I 
sent the State cases as fast as I knew. A child that I could 
not get adopted, my instructions were to send to the State 
almshouse. 
Q. Now’, you say your instructions were to send all State 
cases that you could not get adopted, to the Tewksbury alms- 
house. You evidently followed those instructions. That is 
just what you did by the records. Where nobody would take 
them off of the hands of the State, they were to be sent, good or 
bad, I suppose? A. Well if they were State cases ; yes sir. 
Q. And it so turned out that all these during that time were 
State cases ; and they were always State cases, where you didn’t 
know the settlement of the mother or the father? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that was very frequently the case with dropped 
foundlings? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, madam, did you eArer send them there with bottles 
filled with sour milk? A. No, sir. 
Q. Were they well treated while in your hands? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And did you ever, knowing that a child was just dying, 
send it away from your hospital? A. We have sent them 
when we knew they could not live ; we could not tell how long 
they would live. When we thought they could not live we sent 
them to Tewksbur}’. 1883.J 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
1703 
Q. But you did not send any when you knew they were in a 
dying state, did you? A. No, sir. 
Q. That is, they were feeble, and you thought they could not 
live, and 3011 were bound to send them anyway under your 
instructions. Now, did you send them under a proper 
attendant? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. A female attendant? And did you have the humanity to 
time your sending, so they might be on the road as little as 
possible? A. We had nothing to do with that. The}' were 
sent to the directors for public institutions, and the}' went in the 
afternoon at the regular time of going. 
Q. That answers my question. They took them at the 
regular time as far as you had anything to do with them. Did 
you always send them with proper clothing or wraps—-because 
they could be brought back — for their health and comfort? A. 
Yes, and we had them brought back a great many times. 
Q. What? A. And wo- had them brought back a great 
many times. 
Q. I have no doubt. That is, you always took care that 
they should never suffer with the cold? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And if you furnished clothing, you instructed the attend- 
ant to bring it back? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You are now matron where, madam? A. At the Girls’ 
Friendly Society. 
Q. Any children there? A. No, sir. 
Q. So that since that time you know nothing about children? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. And did you know anything about them before you went 
into the institution? Have you had any of your own? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, you think yourself, don’t you, with all your experi- 
ence, a pretty good judge of a sick child? A. I think so. 
Q. Out of these seventy-one there were five that were in 
good health, thirty-five fair, twenty-three feeble, one diseased, 
and one sick, and one we haven’t any record of. And these 
records are the truth, so far as you know it, or understood it? 
A. Yes sir. 1704 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. One question I forgot to ask you, Mrs. Spear, and that 
is this: As the matron of the Chardon Street Home during 
those ten years, did you have occasion to send grown persons to 
Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir ; very often. 
Q. IIow frequently? A. Pretty much all the time ; every 
day or two. 
Q. Male or female, or both ? A. Female. 
Q. And on what account; that is to say, what was the cause 
of their being sent? A. Well, they were sometimes sick, 
sometimes they had no settlement, sometimes they were so shift- 
less and lazy the}' would not work, and there was nothing else 
to do with them. 
Q. And sometimes women who were to be mothers? A. 
Yes, sir ; very often. 
Q. Now, did you ever see any of these people after they 
came back from Tewksbury'? A. Oh, yres, sir. 
Q. During those ten years? A. They often came back. 
Q. I won’t ask you any conversation, but did you hear from 
any people who came back any complaint in regard to their 
treatment? I don’t ask what it is, but whether you ever heard 
it. 
Gov. Butler. I object. Pardon me, you cannot limit it 
there, because you put it in the judgment of the witness to say 
what the complaint was. Now, I should be very7 glad to sum- 
mon a very large majority of the people to get what was said. 
The Chairman. You don’t press it, do you, Mr. Brown? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir ; because within thirty minutes he has 
asked my witness, Smith, in regard to complaints. 
Gov. Butler. This is entirely' a different matter. 1 asked 
your witness, Smith, about complaints, for the purpose of show- 
ing that he would not remember anything that he thought made 
against Tewksbury'. Whether complaints were made I 
would not give a copper to know from him ; but I asked him in 
order to show that he was shut like a clam against everything 
that he heard against Tewksbury ; that is what 1 asked him for ; 
and he did close like a clam-shell. 
Mr. Brown. And I can, also, after thinking a moment, re- 
call a number of instances where His Excellency' has asked that 
question. I think, if you will look at the direct examination of the 
witnesses, y'ou will find that nearly every one of them was asked 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1888.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1705 
that question. I recollect Mr. Barker, whose presence I have seen 
here this morning, was questioned in regard to complaints ; and 
I think the committee ruled upon that once, as to how far the 
matter should be investigated, whether there were complaints. 
Now, if it is fair, in the progress of the hearing, during the in- 
troduction of testimony by His Excellency, it is certainly fair 
here ; for here is a woman who has had the opportunity of know- 
ing what was the reputation of the place. And all that is 
of some account. Because, if this woman, during ten years, 
had one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred persons, whom 
she sent to Tewksbury for one reason or another ; and if, after- 
wards, in the course of their lives, they came back into this 
Chardon Street Home, and she had an opportunity to converse 
with them, and did converse with them, and never heard any 
complaint, it is something which the committee ought to know. 
And that is just the evidence by which all these cases, and all 
these public institutions, are to be tried ; upon the complaints of 
the inmates. As, for instance, I think we have had scarcely a 
witness produced by His Excellency who has not testified to 
some complaint which he or she has heard. I recollect Mrs. 
Thomas, I think it was, who testified in regard to a complaint 
that came to her ears in regard to the treatment of an insane 
person there. She didn’t say that she saw it herself. Then 
there was another lady who had some experience ; and that 
angel, Eva Bowen, was asked in regard to complaints, and she 
told the committee in regard to these foundlings in the hospital. 
It seems to me that the subject has been so fully gone into, 
that this cannot be an improper question. 
Gov. Butler. If the committee cannot see the difference in 
these cases, I am very much mistaken, although a majority of 
them are not members of the bar. I have asked about com- 
plaints in the institution, made to attendants at the time, for an 
entirely and a very different purpose ; and that was for showing 
that these complaints being made and known to the officers of 
the institution, they were not remedied either by the discharge 
of the person doing the wrong; or, if it was a complaint about 
a matter which could be remedied, — like bathing, food, or any- 
thing of that sort, — that it was not remedied ; that notice was 
not taken at the time. I have not gone into the countiy and 
shown complaints, because I thought it was not proper, that it 
would not be fair to the institution. I took them where they could 
be investigated, and where they ought to have been investigated 1706 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
at the time,—complaints to attendants, complaints made in the 
face of attendants. Did yon complain to Dr. Putney? Yes. 
Did you tell him about it ? Yes. Did you tell any other attendant ? 
Yes. Did you hear the beaten person complaining? I did. 
That is legitimate evidence in a case against a railroad corpora- 
tion, where a person who has been hurt complains at the time of 
the sickness; but it never was heard of that you should go out 
into the country, months afterwards, or years afterwards, and 
ask somebody whether some unknown person did or did not 
complain. In the first place, I have got to inquire into a great 
many things when that is opened. First, I have got to find out 
who these were that did or did not complain. For an illustra- 
tion : French Joe would come out once every year or two, till 
he became a fixture there, and he would not make any com- 
plaint. Then I would have to go in and find out that French 
Joe is a gentleman who travels to Europe at the State’s ex- 
pense, as an inmate, pauper, and that would account for it. 
And, then, T must inquire into the character of the witness, to 
know wrhat was her character who undertakes to talk about 
these complaints. Now, I had rather not be forced into it. If 
you think this investigation won’t be long enough, however, 
without it, it can go in. 
The Chairman. Here is a witness who has been officially 
connected with an institution in Boston, which has sent parties 
to Tewksbury, and, we may say, is officially connected in that 
way, and has received parties back, and dealt with them after 
they came back. Now, the question is, whether those parties 
who were sent by her to Tewksbury, and came back to her, 
complained of their treatment while there. 
Gov. Butler. That is the question. 
The Chairman. That is the question. 
Gov. Butler. Whether we shall enter into that inquiry, and 
if so, what the complaints were. 
The Chairman. I should have more doubt about it if we 
hadn’t let in so much what we might call hearsay. The com- 
mittee will pass upon it, whether she shall answer it. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I was opposed at the commencement of 
this hearing to the admission of this hearsay testimony on the 
other side, and, for one reason, that it might lead to a very long 
hearing. But, it having been admitted on the other side, I shall 
certainly vote to admit this on this side. 
[The committee voted to admit the question.] 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1707 
The Chairman. You ma}T answer the question. 
Gov. Butler. We must have what the complaints were ; I 
am not going to have a general complaint. 
Mr. Brown. I suppose I can first ask whether there were 
any complaints, because if there weren’t any, you can hardly 
find out what they were. Read the question. 
The Reporter. “ I won’t ask you any conversation, but did 
you hear from any of the people who came back an}T complaint 
in regard to their treatment? I don’t ask what it is, but 
whether you ever heard it.” 
Mr. Brown. Now, answer, Mrs. Spear. 
The Witness. Yes, sir; sometimes I did. 
Q. Now, state what complaints you heard? 
Gov. Butler. I supposed you were trying to get the nega- 
tive ; now, do you want to go into it? 
The Chairman. I suppose if he does not want to, you can 
have a chance. 
Q. Now, tell us what you heard. A. Well, I never pay 
very much attention to what they say, coming from those 
places, because those who are well disposed always are well 
treated ; those who are evil disposed are not. 
Gov. Butler. Wait one moment; that is not an answer to 
the question. 
Q. You did hear complaints? A. Yes. 
Q. How frequently? A. You could hear them as fre- 
quently as you had time to listen to them. 
Q. Now, what were the complaints, if 3Tou recollect any 
specific instances as to what they were? A. I don’t know; 
some were treated well and some were treated ill. 
Q. Some complained that they were treated well? A. 
Some said that they were treated well ; others complained that 
they were treated ill. 
Q. Those who said they were treated ill, what did they say 
was done to them? A. That the}r were not allowed to do as 
they wrere a mind to. 
Q. Did they ever complain of lack of food? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did they ever complain of being beaten? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did they ever complain of having to work too hard? A. 
Sometimes. 
Q. Sometimes? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, any other complaint that you recollect? A. No, 
sir. 1708 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did you hear any complain that they were restrained of 
their liberty there in any way? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, I notice,— I will call your attention to the matter 
of these children,— I notice that the shortest time in which an}' 
one of these children that were sent to Tewksbury, I think that 
the shortest time of any of those that are marked “good” is 
eight days. I suppose in your expex’ience with children, a child 
would change very materially in eight days, in its physical 
condition? A. Yes, sir; sometimes when they looked very 
well, and you thought they were very promising, in three or four 
days they would change very fast. 
Gov. Butler. This is going over again my cross-examina- 
tion. 
Mr. Brown. I simply want to call her attention to that, not 
going over it again, but just referring to the cross-examination. 
1 don’t think of anything else. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler). Now, I should like to know one or 
two things. These were all women that you had to deal with, 
wa’n’t they? You didn’t send an}T men? A. No, sir. 
Q. Nor men didn’t come back. Ever send any insane wo- 
men ? A. 1 don’t know. 
Q. Do you recollect a little girl b}rthe name of Eva Bowen? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Do }rou know whether she was at your home or not? A. 
I do not; I don’t know the name, don’t remember the name. 
Q. What? A. I don’t remember the name. 
Q. She has testified that she was at the Chardon Street 
Home. A. Well, there are a great many, but I don’t remem- 
ber the names; 1 very rarely remember the names ; they come 
and go and, of course, the name is nothing to me. 
Q. Now, you said a great many would come to the Chardon 
Street Home because they were in a condition, or soon to be, not 
able to work because they were about to become mothers ; that 
was so, wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What proportion, should you say, there were of those? 
A. There were a good many. 
Q. And were some of them dissolute women, women of the 
town? A. Yes. 
Q. Frequently come? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And to be sent there because they were about to become 
mothers, to be confined, expecting to come back again ; did 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1709 
the}" bring, such class of people, bring trunks with them? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did not? A. No, sir. 
Q. They came simply to be transferred, I suppose. A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. That is all; they didn’t expect to stay with you? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Well, some of that class of people would go well dressed, 
wouldn’t they ? A. 1 never saw one. 
Q. Never saw a girl of the town well dressed? A. Not to 
go there. 
Q. Not to be confined? A. No, sir. 
Q. They always left their good clothes at home? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. In their trunk somewhere. Well, now, none of them 
ever did come with a trunk to you? A. Well, we didn’t take 
trunks. 
Q. You didn’t take them? A. No, sir. 
Q. All right; that was a good reason why they didn’t bring 
them. Now, did any of them, running back to ’72, did any of 
them complain of the washing accommodations there ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never? A. No, sir; I never had any complaint for 
that, any way. 
Q. Way back to ’72 did you know what they were there? 
A. Why, I have heard them say ; I never paid much attention 
to it. 
Q. Well, what did the}’ say they were? A. I couldn’t 
repeat it. 
Q. Why not? A. I never paid much attention to it. 
Q. You didn’t pay much attention to it; you were not a will- 
ing listener, then? A No, sir. 
Q. You were not; but, without repeating it, can’t you tell 
me what it was? A. No, sir. 
Q. Can you tell me whether they ever spoke anything about 
being bathed, how they came to be talking about bathing ac- 
commodations? A. I don’t know that they ever did, espe- 
cially. 
Q. Well, not especially; did they generally? A. No, sir. 1710 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, did they at all? A. I don’t think that I ever 
heard it from them. 
Q. Didn’t hear it? A. I think I have heard it from other 
people, who had heard it from other ways, and came to ask me 
if 1 knew anything about it. 
Q. Did they generally come right back to you from Tewks- 
bury? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. Not always. 
Q. Did any considerable portion of them? A. Some of 
them did. 
Q. I am asking whether any considerable portion did ; they 
were taken to Tewksbury to be taken care of? A. Yes. 
Q. Yours is only a temporary place? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And, having passed them through to Tewksbury, they 
ought not to be discharged if they were fit persons for }-ou 
again. Now, I want to know whether they were not discharged 
and out a while? A. They ot'tener came into the city and 
stayed awhile, and then came to me. 
Q. Stayed *a while somewhere and then came to you ? A. 
There would be a few cases sent to me. 
Q. And when they came to you they knew they were going 
back to Tewksbury ; they were likely to go, — no other place 
for them to go to? A. It depended on who they were and 
what they could do. 
Q. It would depend on whether were State paupers ? 
A. There are times when even those can get employment. 
Q. If they could not, they would have to go back to Tewks- 
bury? A. Yes. 
Q. And that is when you would see them on their return ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, being about to go back to Tewksbury, they would 
not be likely to inaugurate their return to the place by com- 
plaints to you, would they ? Hardly likely to do that, — going 
back to a place and tell you complaints that you might transmit 
up there? A. The}' didn’t care for that. 
Q. What? A. They wouldn’t care for that. 
Q. Why not? A. I don’t think it would make any differ- 
ence to them. 
Q. What, if they were going up there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They would be just as well treated? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They are so good Christian people at Tewksbury. A. 
Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1711 
Q. That whatever people said against them they always 
treated them just alike? A. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. Now you have got a fact. 
Q. How do you know that? A. You asked my opinion 
and I gave it. 
Q. Now, I want to ask you what the grounds of your opin- 
ion were ; were you ever up there? A. Visiting ; yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many times ? A. A few times. 
Q. In how many years? A. I could not tell you ; but I 
have been up there several times. 
Q. Know all the attendants? A. No, sir; I do not. 
Q. Know anybody but Captain Marsh and his wife? A. 
There is one attendant there that is a relative of my assistant, 
that I knew a little ; that is all; no one that I knew particularly. 
Q. That is, all you knew was Captain Marsh and this rela- 
tive of your assistant? Any relative of yours? A. No, sir. 
Q. And which assistant was that? A. Miss Crockett. 
Q. Miss Crockett; I thought that name was familiar to me. 
What relative was up there of Miss Crockett’s ; mother, father, 
sister, brother, uncle, cousin, child? A. I think it is a cousin ; 
I am not sure. 
Q. What? A. I think it is a cousin, but I am not sure. 
Q. What is her name? A. That I can’t tell you. 
Q. Can’t tell what is her first name ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Been there a good while? A. Been there some little 
time ; I had nothing to do with her one way or the other. 
Q. But I thought you must have, because you relied on her 
Christian character for this good opinion you gave. And you 
thought, —you knew you would just as kindly receive and feel 
just as kindly toward somebody that complained of your treat- 
ment of them as you would those who spoke well of you? A. 
No, sir ; I should not. 
Q. You should not? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, if you wouldn’t do that, what made you think they 
would do differently up at Tewksbury? They have a little hu- 
man nature in them as well as you and I have. A. I think 
they have a good deal. 
Q. A good deal; as much as we have? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And resent imputations as other people do. Well;*then, 
why did 3rou testify here on your oath to the committee that 
you thought it would not have made any difference with these 1712 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
people how much they complained, if they had known it up 
there? A. Because, if they belonged there they would have 
to go there. 
Q. They would have to go there. A. Yes. 
Q. Undoubtedly; but they might be treated very different- 
ly. A. No, sir; I don’t think they would. 
Q. Why not? A. Because I don’t think they would treat 
them ill. 
Q. What? A. I don’t think they would treat them ill for 
that. 
Q. They would do differently, then, you think, than what 
you would? A. In that respect, perhaps, they would. 
Q. In that respect perhaps the}- would ? A. Yes. 
Q. What do you know about them that makes you believe 
that they would do better than you would in that respect? 
[Witness paused.] I won’t trouble you any further, madam. 
Mr. Brown. I should like to have you answer that ques- 
tion for my benefit, if he don’t want to trouble you. 
Gov. Butler. Well, the question is, as Mr. Brown wants 
me to press it, in what respect, what do you know of them that 
makes you think they would treat a person who had spoken illy 
of them different from what you would? What particular good 
trait do you know of? A. I think that they are very good 
people up there. 
Q. I know. A. I think when they were brought back 
and they belonged there, I think they would treat them just as 
well. 
Q. Just as well. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, don’t you see, you don’t mean that? You think 
they would treat them differently than you would, and because 
they were very good people up there, — you don’t mean to 
leave us to inter you are not a good person, do you ? That is 
where you leave us. You don’t mean that, do you? [Witness 
paused.] 
Gov. Butler. Want me to press that question, Brown? 
Mr. Brown. If you want to. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t. That is all, madam. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1713 
Testimony of Enoch Quimby Marston (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Enoch Quimby Mars ton. 
Q. Where do you live? A. In Lawrence. 
Q. How long have you lived in Lawrence? A. About two 
years ; a year and a half. 
Q. What is your business? A. Physician. 
Q. Where did you graduate ; where were you educated? A. 
Harvard Medical School. 
Q. When did you graduate? A. 1876. 
Q. Where did you go after graduation for the purposes of 
practising? A. I went to Tewksbury in August, 1876. 
Q. August, ’76? A. August first. 
Q. How long were you at Tewksbury? A. Till October 
18, 1877. 
Q. From August, 1876, to October 18, 1877; while you 
were at Tewksbury, did you have charge of a case of one Char- 
lotte Anderson? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Will you look at that record and tell me if that record is 
in your handwriting? A. Yes, sir; it is. 
Q. When was it made? A. It must have been made very 
soon after June third, perhaps on June third ; I am not certain, 
however. 
Q. Was it made in the regular course of your business? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And it was made under some part of your duty? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And intended for wliat purpose ? A. Intended as a rec- 
ord of the case ; that is all. 
Q. Record of the case. Now, will you give us the record of 
the case as made by you ? 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment. Let me see it first and 
perhaps I will have no objection to it. [Book handed to the 
governor.] I don’t see as I shall have the pleasure of object- 
ing to this record. 
Q. Now, Doctor, refreshing your recollection from that rec- 
ord — 
Gov. Butler. Read it right along ; it was not made at the 
time ; it was made at the time of the death. 
Mr. Brown. Now, just read the record, Doctor, 1714 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
The Witness. [Reading.] 
“Charlotte Anderson, aged 30, insane. Was delivered of a child in 
August, 1876 ; after a very dangerous and long puerperal sickness 
was discharged well, Oct. 16 (same year) ; was then in good health. 
Went with child to No. 20, where she remained as assistant until Feb., 
1877, when, becoming violent, she was removed to the asylum, her 
child being carried to her to nurse for a short time and then weahied 
(Mar.). 
“ On May 13, ’77, she was admitted to the hospital, in a state of high 
fever; face flushed, complains of no pain, is very thirsty, no cough, 
slept well. 
“ May 14. Temp., a. m., 102; P. M., 101.6. 
“May 16. 102.1 103, this being the highest 
temp, attained; it averaging, morning, 101.2, evening, 102, till June 
30, when she died. 
“May 21. Cough for the first time; removed to little room, as 
she is noisy in the ward, through active delirium Sponge baths 
every day. Quin 2, ev. 3 hours. 
“Ex. of chest showed rales fair, O. coarse all over; R. front, C.; dull- 
ness in R. side, heart normal, pulse rather weak. Strength failing; 
whiskey, 10, every hour. Tt is usually refused. 
“May 31st. Exceedingly weak; eyes sunken Takes milk well. 
“June 3. After great suffering for breath for 36 hours, died. Au- 
topsy : spleen large, liver normal, kidneys congested, heart flabby, 
lungs filled with tuberculous masses, a very small portion of left lung 
only crepitant, many cavities.” 
Q. What do you mean b\T the word “ crepitant” ? A. Ln 
a state so that air cannot,— so that it will contain air so it can 
be used for breathing purposes. 
Q. That is, passage to the air cells? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that that record covers the life of that woman from 
August, 1876, which was about the time you went there? A. 
Y"es, sir. 
Q. Till the third of June, 1877, when she died? A. No, 
1876,— oh, yes ; ’77. 
Q. ’77, when she died? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is nearly a year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Ten months. Now, Doctor, while you were there at the 
almshouse, did you have anything to do with the foundling hos- 
pital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What part of the time did you attend to the foundling 
hospital? A. Dr. Putney and myself alternated every three 
months, after we began. I don’t remember just when that alter- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1715 
nating was begun ; but after it was begun, we did so every three 
months till I left. 
Gov. Butler. He came what time ? 
Mr. Brown. He came the first of August, 187G. 
Gov. Butler. And Dr. Putney came the 22nd of July, 1876, 
and you begau your alternating. 
Q. So that you were there somewhere in the neighborhood 
of seven months, in all,— that is, if you spent half your time? 
A. I don’t remember, exactly. 
Gov. Butler. He was there about a year, altogether. 
The Witness. A little more than a year. 
Mr. Brown. He was there from the first of August till the 
eighteenth of October, fourteen months and odd. 
Q. Now, during these fourteen months and odd,— while you 
were the physician in charge of the foundling hospital, state to 
what extent, if any, morphia was used with children. A. It 
was sometimes used on physician’s prescription, in cases where 
it was considered necessaiy. 
Q. Well, to what extent, if you recollect, was it used? A. 
I don’t remember ; I could not tell. 
Q. Whether you recollect it was used to a very large extent? 
A. No, sir ; it was not used, to my knowledge, without my 
special direction, whilst I had charge of the foundlings. 
Q. Now, in what cases did you direct the use of morphia? 
A. In some cases of a great deal of pain, and special cases of 
diarrhoea with pain. 
Q. And what would be the largest dose for a child? A. 
The thirtieth to the twentieth of a grain, perhaps. 
Q. Well, there is a difference in morphia, I suppose, isn’t 
there ; a difference in the strength? 
Gov. Butler. Not unless it is adulterated. 
A. No, sir ; not much. 
Q. Did you visit the foundling hospital frequently? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. How frequently? A. Every day, at least; and usually 
two times a da}7, and often oftener than that. 
Q. Now, were you present at the hospital at any time dur- 
ing that period when the children were received? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. State fully what was their condition ? A. I think their 
condition, usually, was poor; that is, they were not well. I re- 
member one case, especially, of a child that was brought in, —■ 1716 
charitable institutions. 
[Apr. 
I didn’t see it though when it was brought in, 1 saw it a few 
hours afterwards,— and they said that when it came it appeared 
to be entirely lifeless from cold, but it did revive, and died a 
couple of days after, more or less. 
Q. Do you know where that child came from? A. No, 
sir ; 1 think it came from Boston. 
Q. Now, Doctor, I want you to state fully to the committee 
what was the condition of that foundling hospital, and the con- 
dition of those children while you were there ; that is, paying 
special attention to the supplies given them to make them com- 
fortable. A. The}’ were given everything they needed except 
enough attendants. 
Q. What was the attendance? A. There was one paid 
nurse, and the others, the other help, were inmates of the alms- 
house . 
Q. Do you recollect the name of the paid nurse? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. What is the largest number of children that you recollect 
to have been there during that time? 
Gov. Butler. Now, do you mean foundlings? 
Mr. Brown. Foundlings; yes, foundling children ; excuse 
me. 
A. 1 think I have known as many as eight, hut I am not 
sure ; from six to eight is the largest number at once. 
Q. Do you mean that were brought there within a limited 
period, or that wei’e in the institution? A. That were in the 
foundling hospital, what was called No. 20. 
Q. Now, in }’our judgment, looking back, Doctor, recalling 
your experience at that foundling hospital, in your judgment, 
what additional attendants did that institution require? 
Gov. Butler. That room? 
Mr. Brown. That room. 
A. 1 should think it ought to have had two more paid at- 
tendants. 
Q. Two more paid attendants ? A. At least; but I don’t 
think the room was large enough for so many foundlings. 
Q. Well, do you recollect about how large it was? A. I 
should think, — well, I don’t know, — twenty feet square, more 
or less ; 1 don’t know exactly. 
Q. Won’t you designate what the foundling hospital was? 
[Placing plan before the witness.] 1883.] 
HOUSE-No. 300 
1717 
Gov. Butler. Oh, point it right out to him. so he need not 
be looking. 
A. I think that that was it [pointing to plan] ; I think that 
the hospital building was there. It seems to me it was smaller 
than that. 
Q. It was a part of that building, was it, or the whole of it? 
Gov. Butler. The whole of this end of it. 
A. As I remember it would be considerably smaller thhri 
this, though, perhaps, that would indicate it; I don’t know* 
Mr. Brown. Twenty feet to the inch. 
Gov. Butler. [Measuring.] The building is a good inch 
and a half. 
Mr. Brown. About thirty feet. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler) . Across this wav, Doctor. [Referring 
to the plan.] And how did it extend down this wa}-? That is 
the door, Doctor. A. The building, when I was there, I 
should judge would extend to there, and then was divided into 
two rooms. 
Gov. Butler. Then, by taking the whole of it we shall get 
the half. [Measuring.] Three inches and a quarter. 
Mr. Brown. About sixty by thirty-five, — sixt}r odd, sixty- 
five b}T thirty-five. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, as to the character of those at- 
tendants, whether they should have been trained nurses? A. 
I think so ; or, at least, nurses who had had experience with 
children. 
Q. Who had had experience with children. Well, now, did 
these inmates that were set for that purpose, — had they expe- 
rience with children, do you know? A. I think, usually, they 
had ; had had children of their own. 
Q. Now, with regard to the food for that foundling hospital; 
was it wholesome? A. Yes, sir. 
Q What was it? A. Fresh milk. 
Q. Skim milk? A. No, sir; never saw any skim milk, 
there. It was very good milk. 
Q. Milk from the place? A. Milk from the place; yes, 
sir. 
Q. Well, what other kinds of food? A. Well, to a certain 
extent we had infant’s foods ; to a very small extent, because 
we didn’t find they worked well and didn’t continue to use them. 
Q. * Such as what infant’s foods? A. Ridge’s food. 1718 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Give us the preparation. A. 
Ridge’s food. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) What else, if any? A. I don’t re- 
member any other. 
Q. Now, as to broths, or anything of that kind; did you 
have that there? A. Yes, sir; sometimes, had it made to 
order ; flour gruel, sometimes ; and boiled milk was used in some 
cases. 
Q. Now, Doctor, what was the condition of these children 
as a general thing, these foundlings? A. Very poor. 
Gov. Butler. You asked him that question before. 
Q. Yes, sir; but I want you to take, specially, those you 
recollect that died ; what did they die from ; wrhat disease? A. 
As I remember, they died from diarrhoea, dysentery, consump- 
tion, syphilis and inanition. 
Q. Now, to what extent do you recollect they died from the 
effect of syphilis ? A. As I remember, not to a very large ex- 
tent ; quite a number of them. 
Q. Now, inanition ? A. I could not tell the exact figures. 
Q. Could not give the exact figures? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you recollect whether or not it was a small number or 
a considerable large number? A. No, sir ; I could not. 
Q. Did you ever know a child to die in that foundling hos- 
pital from starvation ? A. No, sir; not from — no, sir. 
Q. Was there at all times a sufficient amount of nourishing 
food, fit for a baby ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, did you tend the other parts of the institution, the 
hospital departments? A. Yes, sir. 
Such as what? A. The hospital for women and the 
male hospital, one portion of it; in fact all parts of the hospital 
department, every part, I have seen more or less. 
Q. Were you at the department for the insane? A. I was 
a few times, for a few days only. 
Q. Now, for instance, take the department for the insane 
men and women, what was their condition? A. Usually 
chronic harmless insane. 
Q. Well, was the building neat? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Go on and state about it. A. As neat as it could be 
under the circumstances ; there were many filthy patients there, 
and they had to be looked out for very carefully. 
Q. Were these filthy patients kept by themselves? A. No, 
sir; not altogether. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1719 
Q. Not altogether. Well, were the}’,—to what extent 
would they be kept by themselves? A. If they were violent 
and destructive they would be kept by themselves, — as well as 
filthy. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I understand that they had, —at 
that time was Dr. Whitaker there? A. No, sir. 
Q. That there was a doctor detailed for the insane depart- 
ment? A. Dr. Lathrop usually took charge of that. 
Gov. Butler. Then it was Dr. Lathrop at that time. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, what was the arrangement for 
bathing in the insane department when you were there? A. 
They had, — I know very little about it; I have seen — 
Q. Did you ever see what it was? A. I have seen the 
bath-tubs and the pool. 
Q. What bath-tubs did you see ? A. I don’t remember; I 
could not — 
Q. Do you recollect ever to have seen an individual bath- 
tub ? 
Gov. Butler. In the insane department, you mean ? 
Mr. Brown. That is, in the insane department, during the 
fourteen months you were there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You recollect? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, can you recollect how many you saw? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Cannot? A. No; I probably never saw them more 
than once or twice. • 
Q. Now, as to the food and clothing in the insane depart- 
ment for the insane? A. Well, I could not say but very little 
about that; I know very little of it. I should judge that the 
clothing was sufficient. 
Q. Was the building kept properl}’ warmed in winter? A. 
Yes, sir; T think it was, always, when I was there. 
Q. Now, take the other hospital departments ; for instance, 
the women’s hospital and the men’s hospital, was that kept pro- 
perty warmed in winter? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How as to the beds and bedding? A. They were kept 
clean, as far as I know. 
Q. Did you ever know of an instance where a bed was 
filthy’and rotten ? A. No, sir. 
Q. And what was the filling of the ticks? A. Straw’. 
Q. What kind of straw? A. I don't know. 
Q. Don’t recollect? A. No. 1720 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, as to the sheets and pillow-cases, — were they kept 
cleanly? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, as to the food for the hospital department? A. 
It was sufficient in quantity; it was not always, — we could not 
always get for the very sick, — things that we thought perhaps 
they would need, we could not get. 
Q. Now, what things did you know the very sick needed 
that you didn’t get? A. YYell, I have seen times when I 
thought that chicken-broth, or something of that sort, would do 
them good. 
Q. Anything else that you recollect that you thought they 
ought to have had? A. No, sir; I don’t remember anything 
specially. 
Q. Was there any fruit there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Fruit in winter? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever have any preserved fruit there? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Jellies, or anything of that kind? A. No; nothing of 
that sort that I remember. 
Q. Did you ever know of any religious services over the 
bodies of the inmates who died? A. I don’t remember; I 
would not swear that I ever did. 
Q. Did you ever attend the chapel there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Services? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What clergymen were there? A. They usually had dif- 
ferent clergymen for the different Sundays; once a month a 
priest would come down from Lowell. 
Q. What priest? A. I don’t remember the name. 
Q. Should you know if }"ou heard it? A. Perhaps so. 
Q. Was it Father Gigeaux? A. I don’t remember the 
name. 
Q. Do }Tou recollect more than one? A. Yes; I know 
two. 
Q. Where was the other one from? A. They were both 
from Lowell. 
Q. Did 3'ou ever inspect the cooking department and the 
food as it was prepared? A- Yres, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Prepared for whom and what? 
Q. As prepared for the inmates of the institution, either 
hospital or otherwise? A. Yes, sir; the inmates in the insti- 
tution ; the whole institution. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1721 
Q. Now, state in regard to that, Doctor. A. Well, I think 
there was always a sufficiency of good food provided. 
Q. Well, take the bread ; tell us what you observed with 
regard to the quality of the bread. A. The bread was usually 
very good indeed. 
Q. Well, when it was not very good what was it? A. I 
have seen it when it smelt sour. 
Q. How many times do you recollect of seeing that occur? 
A. I don’t know how many times ; very rarely; perhaps once 
or twice. 
Q. Who was the baker when you were there? A. I don’t 
remember his name. 
Q. Well, now, Doctor, during the time you were there, did 
you know Mr. Barker, who was an attendant in the insane 
hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Dudley ? A. Yes, sir, 
Q. And his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Mr. French? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. . Emmons French? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And his-wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the other Mr. French? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What was his name? A. Lemuel, I think. 
Q. Did you sit at Captain Marsh’s table? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, while you were at that institution, did }rou ever 
hear any complaints, upon the part of the attendants or in- 
mates, as to any act of cruelty committed upon them or any- 
body7 else? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear anything of the kind from Mr. Barker 
or his wife, Mr. Emmons French or his wife, or Mr. Dudley or 
his wife? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never did? A. Never. 
Q. Did you know Mrs. Thomas? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear any complaint from her? A. No, 
sir ; that is, in relation to the inmates. 
Q. What did you hear her complain about? A. I heard 
her complain because Dr. Lathrop would not get up in the 
night to come and see her daughter. 
Q. Would not get up in the night and go and see her 
daughter; what was the matter with her daughter? A. She 
had had a tooth pulled, and the jaw was bleeding. 
Q. Had a tooth pulled. 1722 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Why7 don’t you give 11s the whole of it, — and 
the jaw was bleeding ? 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
The Witness. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. I heard that. 
Gov. Butler. I see you heard ; but why don’t you repeat 
it? 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t think it was necessary ; I thought you 
heard it. 
Q. Any other instance where you ever heard her make any 
complaint? A. No, sir; I don’t remember any. 
Q. Let us see ; you were not the gentleman who was court- 
ing that daughter? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That was Dr. Putney. 
The Witness. No ; I think not. 
Mr. Brown. You are mistaken there. 
Gov. Butleji. I only know what the testimony was. 
Q. Now, Dr. Marston, take the hospital department, outside 
of the foundling hospital, —the men’s hospital and the women’s 
hospital, — whether or not, in your judgment, while you were 
there during those fourteen months, there was a sufficient num- 
ber of attendants in these hospitals? that is, I mean skilled 
attendants. A. I think it would have been better to have had 
at least another attendant at night in the female hospital. 
Q. The female hospital. Now, take the insane department; 
whether there was a sufficient number of attendants in the in- 
sane department? A. From what little I know, I should think 
it would have been better to have had more. 
Q. Well, there were two male attendants, two or three 
male attendants in the insane department, were there not? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is the female department; now, should you say that 
was an objection? A. I should think it was an objection. 
Q. Now, if the number of attendants—female attendants — 
were increased, do yTou think that the male attendants could be 
removed? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. With safety? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, with the number of attendants which they had 
when you were there, do you think they could have safely re- 
moved the male attendants? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. There wouldn’t have been anybody7 left then. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1723 
Mr. Brown. Oh, yes; the women attendants would have 
been left. 
Q. There were female attendants in the insane department 
while you were there, weren’t there ? A. Yes. 
Q. But they were not sufficient, in your judgment. Now, 
Doctor, if you know of any cause of complaint against this in- 
stitution that I have not inquired about, I wish you would tell 
this committee what it is. A. I don’t know of any. 
The Chairman. The committee have a little business. I 
think we will stop here ; the cross-examination, I take it, will 
be at some length ? 
Gov. Butler. Not very long, but some length, sir. 
The Chairman. We have a little business, and we will ask 
the audience to retire now promptly, as the committee want to 
hold a meeting. The hearing is adjourned to next Monday at 
half-past nine o’clock. 
Adjourned to Monday, May 28, at 9.30 a. m. 1724 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
THIRTY-NINTH HEARING. 
Monday, May 28. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Gilmore of Middlesex in the chair. 
Mr. Brown. I want to say a single word to the committee. 
T made on Saturday a careful examination of the testimony 
which has been offered by His Excellency, and I find that out 
of the seventy-eight witnesses who testified, there are some to 
which I do not .care to reply, — such as the tanners, for instance. 
There are others to whom I have made reply as far as I care to, 
and there remain thirty-seven witnesses to whose testimony I 
desire to call witnesses for the purpose of contradicting; and 
I have a list of one hundred and fifty-seven witnesses that have 
not been called. Perhaps quite a number of them may drop 
out as we proceed, as 1 may consider that they are unimportant. 
But I wish to make this suggestion to the committee, that I am 
prepared to go on all day. I am prepared with witnesses this 
morning to go on all da}’, and will be this week, unless 1 should 
receive suggestion from the committee that the}’ do not desire 
to go on so long, in which case I shall not keep so many in 
attendance. 
The Chairman. If you and the governor can agree upon 
that, the committee then will consult about it. 
Mr. Brown. I made the suggestion because I know that the 
legislature are impatient to get away. What action they may 
take I don’t know. 
Gov. Butler. I should be quite able to goon until 2 o’clock, 
sir. 
The Chairman. And make one session until 2 o’clock. 
Would you.propose that for each day? 
Gov. Butler. 1 can to-day, sir. Does the committee sit 
to-morrow — I mean Wednesday? 
The Chairman. Oh, no I 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1725 
Gov. Butler. I will arrange so that I can go on until 2 
o’clock to-morrow. I have other duties ; I have quite a num- 
ber of bills to examine, and I have to have a little time in the 
afternoon for that examination, besides what I can do in the 
evening. 
Mr. Putney. I think it is asking rather too much of the. 
committee to sit here until 2 o’clock. As far as m3* judgment 
is concerned, I am willing to sit here as long as can reasonably 
be expected ; but I do not desire to sit here until 2 o’clock any 
day. 
The Chairman. Perhaps we had better sta3* until 1 o’clock. 
Gov. Butler. We will go as long as we can. 
Mr. Putney. I think the atmosphere in this room at the end 
of that time is sufficiently bad. 
Gov. Butler. There is 110 occasion for keeping one hundred 
and fifty-seven witnesses in attendance all the time. We can- 
not finish more than ten or fifteen. 
Mr. Brown. Not more than ten or twelve in any one day. 
Testimony of E. Q. Marston (resumed). 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Dr. Marston, 3*011 said 37ou graduated at the Harvard 
Medical School. When? A. In 1876. 
Q. What time? A. In June. 
Q. Had 3’Ou been there three 3'ears? A. I had been abus- 
ing medicine four years. 
Q. I have no doubt of that. I hope 3*011 had been stud}’- 
ing longer. Had 3*011 • been at the medical school three 37ears? 
A. Not three entire 3rears ; no, sir. 
Q. You are not a graduate of the college? A. No, sir. 
Q. And then, in August, was it, that you went into this 
establishment? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. August, 1876. Now, then, we have learned here that 
there was a great mortality of these infants during substantially 
the .time covered b37 you, and one year after ; that seventy-one 
were sent there from one institution, and the3* all died, — where 
3*ou and Dr. Putney alternated. I want to know if you can tell 
me how many infants were born, or brought to that institution 
otherwise, during the fourteen months while 3rou were there? 
A. No, sir ; I cannot. 
Q. Is there any record that 3rou know of except the register? 
A. No, sir. 1726 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And that we have had. The register don’t show whether 
they were born there? A. There is a register of the births of 
all infants that are born in the institution. 
Q. Now, how many were there, in fourteen months, of those 
that came there otherwise, should \tou say, if any? A. Of the 
foundlings, do you mean? 
Q. No, no ; the foundlings are all gone. I am talking about 
those that are born there. A. 1 don’t know, sir. 
Q. Five? A. I don’t know, sir. You could tell by the 
register of deaths and births. 
Q. Well, were those born there kept in the same room with 
the foundings? A. No, sir. 
Q. A better room? A. They were kept by themselves 
with their mothers. They usually went away — the mothers and 
children usually went away within a month or six weeks after 
the child was born — usually so. 
Q Well, now, then, here were mothers nursing their children 
in one room, and were the mothers employed all the time with 
the child — a given mother? A No, sir. After the}’ were able 
to work, they did work. 
Q What work did they do? A. As 1 remember, they went 
to the sewing-room or to the laundry ; I would not swear where 
they went. 
Q. Well, did they go into the foundling hospital as a rule? 
A. No, sir ; not as a rule. 
Q. Why not? Why would not those be the very best nurses? 
Here were a lot of wet nurses with, perhaps, a little more milk 
than their children needed ; at any rate, they would be kindly 
disposed towards children ; why not put them in there instead of 
sending them into the laundry or sewing-room? A. I don’t 
think they would be willing to go, because the foundling chil- 
dren — there was a suspicion that they might be syphilitic. 
Q. That you could tell after awhile? A. We could after 
awhile ; yes, sir. 
Q. Well, they would not be bound to nurse them, and they 
would not catch the syphilis by attending upon them ; would 
they be likely to? A. I should not want to ask them to do it. 
'Q. Whether you should want to or not, they were not asked. 
Now, sir, were the syphilitic children, kept in the same room 
with the foundlings? A. There were no children in that room 
except foundlings. 
Q. 1 agioe th.at there were not, but I ask if the syphilitic 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1727 
children were kept there if there were any? A. Well, they 
were kept there at least until we found out. We could not 
always tell when they came. 
Q. And were they not kept there afterwards? A. It is 
possible, for a short time. 
Q. Don’t you know that it is not only possible, but the fact ? 
A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Wasn’t there — now I will take one child — was there 
not a child in the corner — I don’t remember the name now, but 
I can tell by looking at my paper, — was there not in one corner 
of the room, a child kept there, kept there for a long time, a 
considerable time, one which was so bad and unsightly an ob- 
ject that it had to be covered with a cloth? A. I don’t remem- 
ber. 
Q. Wouldn’t 3'ou remember such a thing as that? A. I 
should think so. 
Q. Well, we will try to show who that was. Now, how 
many was the largest number of foundlings you had at a time 
under your charge? A. I don’t think there was ever more 
than eight; I am not certain that there was as many as that. 
Q. Well, you alternated with Dr. Putney. Were there as 
many as eighteen there ? A. At one time ? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. No, sir; I think not; I am quite positive 
there were not. 
Q. Then there were eight. There was over seventy-one 
came there, the principal source being Chardon Street Home, 
and that covered two years and seven months ; and as the}’ only 
lived an average of five weeks, it would be difficult to accumu- 
late them. Well, now, Doctor, here was a room thirty by thirty- 
five feet, and with windows on three sides? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And two ventilators. There were eight foundlings in it. 
How many square feet of space do you think a foundling ought 
to take? A. I don’t know. I don’t think two foundlings 
ought to be kept in the same room. 
Q. Two foundlings ought not to be kept in the same room. 
What is the distinctive difference, in your experience, between a 
foundling and another child? A. The foundling is less apt to 
be healthy, strong and well. 
Q. Well, that is all? A. That is all. 
Q. Ver}’ well. Now, then, your idea of an infant hospital, 
would be to have a room for each infant? A. Yes, sir; as 
nearly to that as possible. 1728 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, if they were kept in the same room — supposing 
there were eight — I am now speaking of air — supposing we 
have eight in that room, wouldn’t there be plenty of air? A. 
No, sir ; I don’t think there would. 
Q. Why not? A. Because they use a great deal, and they 
have to be looked out for very frequently. 
Q. I know they have to be looked out for, and all that, but 
do you think that eight foundlings would use as much air as three 
men; especially young ones who do not live but five weeks any- 
how? A. I think they would need as much as a man, each one 
of them. 
Q. Would the}' use as much? A. No, I don’t know as 
they would use as much. 
Q. Now do you think there would be air enough in that room 
with windows on three sides for three men? A. Yes, sir; I 
think there would be enough for three men. 
Q. For four men ? A. Perhaps'so. 
Q. A good deal more than we get here. Well, then, the 
foundlings didn’t die for want of air, did the}'? A. No, sir ; I 
think not. 
Q. Very well. The air is all right. Now, they had nice 
food ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They didn’t die for want of food? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then they were kept cleanly, very? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then Tewksbury is a tolerably healthy location, isn’t it? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, if they had good food and good air and 
good treatment, and they all died, the only other thing must 
have been good care ; the only other thing must have been the 
fault of the medical men, mustn’t it? Everything else was all 
right? A. Not exactly. The children were not right. There 
were a good many of them in the room. 
Q. Well, there were some of them that were right? Some 
of them were right. Well, now, have you ever been in any other 
foundling hospital ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never have? Well, now, I learn by the reports that the}' 
boarded five, six, seven and eight foundlings in private families, 
and they didn’t all die, and there they didn’t have any doctor 
either. Well now, Doctor, let us go to another matter about 
these foundlings. Why did you leave, Doctor? A. Because I 
got a better position elsewhere. 1883. 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1729 
Q. You could do better. Was that the only reason? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Who was elected or appointed to take your place? A. 
I had the impression that it was Dr. Cummings ; Dr. Cummings 
or Dr. Foster, I am not sure which. 
Q. Dr. Cummings or Dr. Foster? A. Yes, sir, 
Q. Well, did you return there afterwards at all? A. Yes, 
sir; I was there once or twice for an hour or so. 
Q. Now, Doctor, leaving the children, in the insane wards 
was there ever an occasion when anybody got beaten in those 
wards? A. I don’t know that there was. 
Q. Do you know that there was not ? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Now, in the other wards, was there ever an occasion when 
people got beaten there ? A. I don’t know of a case. 
Q. Were you there when an insane man got a pickaxe stroke 
on his head, and it killed him? A. No, sir; I think not; I 
don’t remember. 
Q. Out in the yard? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, do you know anything about what food it 
takes to support a man? A. Yes, sir; something. 
Q. How much solid meat do you think the average family 
uses to the person — solid animal meat per day? A. 1 think 
it varies very much ; I think all the way from a quarter of a 
pound to three-quarters of a pound. 
Q. Well, it varies with different people. I mean, of course, 
not when a family can’t get it, but I mean the ordinary family. 
It varies according to the different ages and conditions of men, 
I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Take the ordinal family and we will say there are ten 
per cent, of children, ten per cent, of women, and the rest ordi- 
nary men, and what do you say would be the average per day 
for such an average family as that? A. Well, I should not 
change my estimate ; I think from a quarter of a pound to three- 
quarters of a pound apiece. 
Q. Very well; that is of meat? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is of meat a day. Then how much should you say 
of bread ; how many pounds of bread would an individual eat 
beside? A. I think a pound, more or less. 
Q. How much ? A. A pound. 
Q. I mean now of wheat bread. And then would you ex- 
pect them to eat that and have the usual amount of vegetables* 
rice, pease and A, Well, it would vary much ; if there 1730 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
were more vegetables there would be less bread, to a certain 
extent. 
Q. And if beans and pease, less bread. Now, Doctor, do 
•you know how much a pound of flour gains in cooking into 
bread ? A. I don’t know, sir ; I don’t remember. 
Q. Perhaps you will remember, when I call your attention to 
the fact that in the army we used to think it gained thirty-three 
per cent. That made a company fund, where we saved the dif- 
ference between flour and bread. Should you agree to that? 
A. Well, I suppose it is correct; I don’t know. 
Q. Well, then, they would want about two-thirds of a pound 
of flour, this family, made into bread, which would be a pound, 
about. Well, would you think it an enormous quantity if you 
found — or I will go back. Do you think the people at Tewks- 
bury get more than the ordinary well-fed families of this 
country? A. Well, they probably eat more bread. 
Q. Eat more bread and less meat? A. And less meat or 
less vegetables. 
Q. But they do not have simply bread ? A. They do have 
vegetables, in their season. 
Q. And, also, they have their beans and pease and rice? A. 
Yes, sir; but they do not have as great a variety as the ordi- 
nary family. , 
Q. That may be, but the}7 have the ordinary things. Now, 
you would think they would not differ from the ordinary family 
in their meats. That is, taking the proportion. I am trying to 
take the proportion. A. I think they would eat more bread, 
in proportion, than the ordinary family. 
Q. Because it would be given to them ; and they would not 
have so much of other things? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, you would think that two pounds and a third 
of bread would be an enormous ration for even a pauper at 
Tewksbury? A. I think it would be a good ration ; I think it 
would be sufficient. 
Q. Don’t you think it would be enormous? A. I think it 
would be sufficient, to say the least. 
Q. Precisely ; because you say a pound would be sufficient. 
Now, why can’t I get an honest answer out of you, on that 
question? Why can’t you tell me the truth, Doctor? A. I will 
try to do it. 
Q. Don’t you know that it would be an enormous ration for 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1731 
a man to eat, day by day, for a whole family-? A. Yes, sir; 
if that is the average, I think it would be very large. 
Q. It would be very large. Well, we find by calculation, 
that they get a pound and seven-eighths of flour every day-, in- 
cluding the officers. 
Mr. Brown. You mean your expert so testified. 
Gov. Butler. It is a mere matter of calculation and figures. 
That, y-ou see, would make almost two pounds and a half of 
bread. , 
Mr. Brown. We shall be able to show that that was not the 
case. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. That he is mistaken in his figures. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, very likely ; then we shall have to cor- 
rect it, when that is shown. It was b®ught; I don’t know what 
was done with it. 
Q. Well, now, at the same time, three-quarters of a pound of 
meat and fish — sixty-four one-hundredths of a pound, — brown 
bread and rice and pease and beans—now, from y-our knowledge, 
do y-ou believe that amount of flour, beef and bread w-as con- 
sumed by the individuals at Tewksbury-? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Well, from y-our knowing what went on there, do y'ou 
believe it? We ,may- be wrong in our figures, but I am now 
putting these figures to you. Do you believe that that amount 
of food was consumed by each individual, on the average, reck- 
oning the dy-ing infants in as eaters ; do y-ou believe that was 
consumed, day- by day-? A. I don’t know anything about it. 
Q. You were there to see it? A. Well, I could not tell how 
many- pounds were eaten or not. 
Q. What? A. I could not tell anything about that. 
Q. Couldn’t you ? A. It was not my- business. 
Q. Not your business, Doctor! Isn’t it the business of a 
well-educated Harvard physician to know about what the needs 
of health are, for food? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well, then, it was your business, was it not? Then 
why didn’t you attend to it, and know? Well, now, Doctor, do 
you think that the men in the hospital, and sick in the hospital, 
eat as much as well men ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Anywhere near as much, as a rule. They want nicer 
things, I know ; I will agree upon that; but do they- eat as much 
in quantity-? A. It is according to the disease from which they 
are suffering. 1732 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Take the average. A. Well, if they have fever they 
would not eat as much. 
Q. Well, take consumption? A. With consumption they 
probably would not eat as much. 
Q. And, if they were infirm and suffering from old age? A. 
No, if they were — 
Q. With what disease would they be likely to eat more? A. 
Chronic diseases. They might be lame, and might have any- 
thing that would keep them in bed, and still have a good appe- 
tite. 
Q. But being kept in bed the appetite is not quite as rave- 
nous as when you were out of doors? A. Well, as a rule, no 
sir. 
Q. Was it so in Tewksbury? A. I think there were some 
cases where the people were unable to get up, and where they 
ate as much, fully as much, as those that went out. 
Q. But as a rule? A. As a rule they would not eat as 
much. 
Q. Now, Doctor, have you an}T account of the people, show- 
ing the history of these cases that died? A. There is a par- 
tial history. 
Q. Where is that; is that the book we had here the other day ? 
[Referring to the record of cases in obstetrics.] Well, now, let 
us see. Is there any history of these infants? A. No, sir ; 
I think not. 
Q. They have gone, “ unhonored and unsung.” About what 
proportion do you find in this book? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Can you tell me anywliere near? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, let us take a month. Let us take a }'ear, if we can 
find a year. This is the year 1878. I would like to get your 
year, if I can, sir. Here is 1876, commencing in August. 
There is one case [turning the leaves] ; eight cases. Now we 
have got to July first. May 12th to July 1st, what year? It is 
pretty bad getting along up at Tewksbury, July comes before 
June. Then August 18th would have been a year. There 
were eight or nine cases in that year, and one of them is, “ four 
weeks ago delivered of a healthy child, both doing well, Mary 
Campbell.” And that is all the history there is. Now, didn’t 
you keep a detailed book of reports? A. Yes, sir; 1 kept a 
private book. 
Q. A private book ! a public officer with private books ! I 
don’t understand that. And about public business ? A. Well, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1733 
you misunderstand me. The book was simply to take such 
facts as were necessary to the giving out of medicine ; the put- 
ting up of medicine when I returned to the dispensary. That 
was all that book was intended for. 
Q. Well, undoubtedly that was a very good purpose, and 
showed what was the matter with the patients? A. It would 
show what I wanted to prescribe for them. 
Q. It would show to you and everybody else what you 
thought the matter was? A. It might or might not. 
Q. It ought to? A. No, sir; not as a title. 
Q. Well, where are those books? A. I suppose they were 
destroyed long ago. 
Q. Did you destroy them ? A. I might have. 
Q. I know you might, but did you? A. I don’t know; I 
don’t remember. 
Q. You don’t remember whether }tou destroyed your books? 
Did you leave them there? A. I think I destroyed them or 
left them there ; I don’t know. 
Q. We don’t find any of yours, but there may be some there 
still. Do you know what you did, now, with your books? A. 
No, sir ; I don’t know. 
Q. These would show, now, what }tou prescribed for those in- 
fants? Yes, sir. 
Q. And how often you prescribed morphine, if you did? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And how much? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But it would not show how thueh the nurse gave when 
you were not there ? A. No, sir; not at all. I w'ould have 
to trust the nurse for that. Of course we have to trust the 
nurse. 
Q. Well, now, sir, wasn’t there a bottle of preparation of 
opium kept in the closet; kept in that hospital, in that foundling 
room ? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Do you know whether there was or not? A. I don’t 
know ; I don’t remember. 
Q. You don’t know whether there was or not? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, nothing is any more deadly, I suppose, except to 
give them arsenic, than to give a young child an overdose of 
morphia? A. Yes ; an overdose. 
Q. Nothing more destructive to life than to give frequent 
doses of morphia to young children ? A. Frequent overdoses. 1734 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, fre’quent small doses? A. That would be an over- 
dose if given too frequently. 
Q. That would be an overdose by and by. That is, if the 
child was fretful, and the nurse thought a little more morphine 
would quiet it, and gave it; and, if the child became fretful 
again, and she gave it more to quiet it; very soon it would be 
an overdose? Yes ; that would be improper. 
Gov. Butler. It would kill it. I don’t believe I shall have 
to trouble you an}’ more, Doctor. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) 1 want to ask you what pay you got 
while you were there?- A. Seven hundred dollars, and found. 
Q. You have no family? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, now, you were asked by His klxcellency in regard 
to whether you thought a certain quantity of food would be a 
very large ration. I will ask you this question, Doctor; did 
you ever know, while you were at the institution at Tewksbury, 
that any food was taken away and used out of the institution 
for any purpose? A. No, sir, 
Q. No food of any kind ? A. Nothing of any kind. 
Q. Or clothing? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever know that a bottle which contained a prep- 
aration of morphia — 
Gov. Butler. A preparation of opium. 
Mr. Brown. A preparation of opium was used in the found- 
ling hospital. Did you ever know of the existence of such a 
fact? 
The Witness. No, sir. • 
Q. Supposing such a fact had come to your knowledge, 
what should you have done ? A. I should have taken it away. 
Q. Why? A. Because I wish to hold that in my own 
hands, — the giving of morphia, or any medicine. 
Mr. Brown. I believe that is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) They would not be likely, if they 
were taking away food, to let you know anything about it? A. 
No, sir; I suppose not. 
Q. And if they were taking away clothing, they would not 
let you know it? A. I presume not. 
Q. (By Mr. Chamberlain.) I want to ask the doctor one 
single question. In making your estimate of food, I didn’t 
quite understand the amount that would be required, for an in- 
dividual, of meats. You recognize the fact that it would require 
very much less if it was steaks or roasts thau it would if it was 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1735 
the bon}'pieces used for boiling or for soups? A. Oh, yes, 
sir; the estimate was intended to mean good digestible meat. 
Q, Covering the entire animal? That is, covering the dif- 
ferent pieces of the animal instead of the bony pieces? A. 
Yes, sir ; instead of the bone. The bone would not be nourish- 
ing. 
Mr. Brown. Then, I think Mr. Fairbanks made no allow- 
ance for live cattle. By looking over the bills, I find that a 
large amount of it was bought in live cattle, for which I believe 
he made no allowance. 
Gov. Butler. I think he did not. I thought that was 
wrong, because live cattle, fatted, make more meat than we get 
when the}’ are bought. I think he made a mistake. * 
Mr. Brown. It don’t appear whether they were fatted or 
not. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do I understand you to say that it 
takes more or less meat by weight where it is salted meat than 
where it is fresh? A. I don’t think I made any statement in 
regard to that. The statement that I intended to make was 
that if the estimate was made from meat as it runs, bone and 
all, the estimate would have to be larger than if it was all solid 
muscle and flesh. 
Q. Well, take the meat such as is usually I was 
talking about? A. I did. 
Q. Now, then, which will go the farthest in a family, or any- 
where else, two hundred pounds of salt meat, beef, or the same 
amount of fresh beef? A. The salt, I should think. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I want to ask you a single question. 
The morphia or opium which was at the hospital for medical 
purposes, was that accessible to the nurse, or any of the nurses 
in the hospital ? A. No, sir ; not at all. 
Q. Not at all accessible? A. No, sir ; only just what was 
issued to them by us. 
Q. On prescription ? A. On prescription ; and in the hospi- 
tal there was a'standard solution of morphia kept to be given ac- 
cording to our directions, in order that we might not be obliged 
to put out a drachm every time it was necessary to use it. 
Q. Then, the nurse in the foundling hospital, under those 
regulations, would not be able to have opium or morphia in her 
possession unless she got it outside ; is that a fact? A. Yes, 
sir. 1736 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) One moment. This solution was 
kept in a bottle, was it not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In the hospital? A. Not in the foundling. 
Q. Not in the foundling, but in the other? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And in about how large a bottle ? A. I don’t remem- 
ber, sir. 
Q. Well, a quart? A. No, sir; I think not. I think, 
perhaps, an eight-ounce bottle. 
Q. And that was filled up whenever it was short, I suppose? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, was there any trouble, if a nurse wanted a little 
solution of morphia in the foundling hospital, why she couldn’t 
go into the other hospital and get a vial? A. Yes, sir; I 
think there wrould be. 
Q. What? A. They would not let them have it. 
Q. How do you know that? A. I think they would not. 
Q. Why not? A. Because, if they did, and they were 
caught, they would be discharged. 
Q. If they w'ere caught at it they would be discharged? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. If they were not caught at it they would not be dis- 
charged? A. Well — 
Gov. Butler. No. 
Q. (By Mr. Chamberlain.) Doctor, did they eat the bones 
out of the beef at Tewksbury? A. No, sir; I never heard 
of it. 
Q,. Are you aware that there is a very much larger percent- 
age of bone in the beef that is used for boiling and soups, 
which they buy for four and three-quarters or five cents per 
pound, than there is in the animal through? A. I should sup- 
pose so. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Quite as much nourishment in the 
bones in a soup as in anjT other part? A. Of course there is 
some nourishment. 
Q. (Gov. Butler.) Ox-tail soup is a luxury, is it nof, and 
that is all bone ? 
Q. (B}r Mr. Brown.) You spoke of this bottle of morphia 
in the hospital. Now, in whose charge wrould that bottle be? 
A. In charge of the head nurse. 
Q. Would you hold him responsible for it? 
Gov. Butler. It might be her. 
Mr. Brown. Well, he or she? 1883.] 
HOUSli—No. 300. 
1737 
Tl\e Witness. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Putney.) Just one moment. I take it, Doc- 
tor, that in serving these rations to the inmates, they are all 
fed about alike, are they not? A. It is intended to be so; 
yes, sir. 
Q. Some of them will eat up all that is given them, and the 
others may leave half of it? A. Yes ; they might. 
Q. This half that was left would be entirely thrown away? 
A. There might be some, if it was broken so it could not be 
used. 
Q. Well, was half of the meat so left thrown away? A. 
There might be some. 
Q. Well, it would not hardly be possible to take it and have 
it served again the next day? A. No, sir; I think not. 
Q. So, in that case, it would be equivalent to feeding all 
heartily ; one eats and the other throws half away. Is that the 
fact? A. Well, that would hardly be the fact, because if a 
person had a larger appetite he would be given more. 
Q. That is, he would be served a second time? A. They 
would give him some a second time ; y’es, sir. 
Mr. Putney. I supposed that was the way ; if one ate what 
was given him they would give him more, and the other would 
not eat half that he was given at first. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Did you ever live in a boarding- 
house? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Ever hear of any such thing as hash? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And they generally make up the extra meat into hash, 
don’t they? They call it croquettes now, I believe? A. I 
should hope not from meat left on the plates. 
Q. Not? A. I should hope not. 
Q. Did they ever have any hash at Tewksbury ? A. Yes, 
sir ; I have seen it. 
Gov. Butler. [To Mr. Putney.] You didn’t get the board- 
ing-house side of it, Mr. Putney. 
Testimony of Martha E. Pearson {sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Martha E. Pearson. 
Q. Where do you live? A. In Chelsea. 
Q. How long have you lived there? A. Twenty-six years. 
Q. Who was your husband? A. Rev. Lauren Pearson. 1738 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did he preach in Chelsea? A. Onl}7 occasionally.. He 
went there when he was sick. 
Q. Have you ever been city’ missionary at Chelsea? A. I 
have. 
Q. How many years were you city missionary? A. I went 
there in March, 1857 ; it is eight 3’ears since I was there. 
Q. You resigned eight }rears ago? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you were city missionary continuously from March, 
1857, up to 1875? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (Bj’Gov. Butler.) How many years? 
Mr. Brown. About eighteen years. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) When did your husband die? A. 
June 28, 1878. 
Q. Now, as city missionary at Chelsea up to 1875, did 3*011 
have anything to do with foundling children? A. I did. 
Q. What? A. If the overseers had a child that they didn’t 
know what to do with — 
Q. That is, the overseers of the poor? A. The overseers 
of the poor, they brought it to me ; and other people brought 
children to me. 
Q. What did 3*011 do with them? A. I found them homes 
in private families. 
Q. Were there any you could not find homes for? A. Not 
any that were brought to me, excepting one. 
Q. Did you ever send an}’children to Tewksbmy? A. I 
carried one, but it was under the direction of the overseer, be- 
cause I told him I could not find families for any more. 
Q. And when was that, Mrs. Pearson? A. That was since 
my husband died. 
Q. Since 1878? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In that connection did you Aisit the foundling depart- 
ment? A. I just looked in ; I saw through the door. 
Q. Had 3’ou ever been to before? A. I had. 
Q. How frequently? A. I had been there three or four 
times. 
Q, When did 3’ou make these visits? A. It was when the 
overseers or the city marshal wished me to go up with some one 
theyT wanted to have good care taken of on the wa3'. 
Q. Can 3’ou recollect the day or the date of am* of those 
visits? A. I cannot, except that the last child I carried was 
before 1878. 
Q. Now, whenever 3’ou went there, Mrs. Pearson, was 3'our 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300 
1739 
coming announced to the authorities? A. No ; I went up and 
rode up in the wagon that other people rode up in — the poor 
people. 
Q. To the institution? A. Yes, sir. » 
Q. Did you ever go over the institution to examine it? A. 
I have. 
Q. How far back, Mrs. Pearson, was the first time you went 
to examine that institution ? Give us the year as near as 30U 
can? A. I think it was in 1858 or 1859. 
Q. 1858.or 1859? Well, take your next visit after that? 
A. I cannot tell, because I was in no way connected with it. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Pearson, I want you — Capt. Marsh went 
there in 1858, I believe in June. I want you to tell this com- 
mittee what you saw in regard to that institution, at any of the 
visits you have ever made, in the matter of cleanliness? A. 
Very clean ; everything that I saw. 
Q. Did you notice any material change in point of cleanli- 
ness on 3’our last visit from what 30U had seen on previous occa- 
sions ? A. I did not. » 
Q. In other words, Mrs. Pearson, you wish the committee to 
understand that at all the visits 3rou ever made to Tewksbury 
the institution was cleanly? 
Gov. Butler. What she saw of it. 
The Witness. What I saw of it. There were people there 
acquainted with me, and they rushed out to see me when I came. 
They were always cleanly dressed. And I went around in the 
rooms. Some of them had private rooms, and they took me 
into their rooms. 
Q. Did you ever go there, Mrs. Pearson, when there were 
not a greater or a less number of persons there as inmates with 
whom you were acquainted? A. There were always some that 
didn’t fail to meet me. 
Q. During any time when 3tou have ever been there have 
you ever heard any complaints against the institution from an3r 
of the inmates with whom 3Tou were acquainted ? A. Not a 
word. 
Q. What have 3'ou heard said, if anything, b3T them in re- 
gard to the institution? A. I never heard a word against it 
in all my labors in Chelsea among the poor people. They were 
loth to go there, because they said they would never be respected 
after they came back. The3T were most of them Irish, and they 1740 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
Apr. 
said their friends would twit them about it. That seemed to'be 
their greatest objection. 
Q. Now, in all your labors as city missionary in Chelsea, 
how frequently have you been brought in contact with people 
who have been there as inmates? A. Why*, almost every day, 
when I was city missionary. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Pearson, outside of the institution, when you 
have been brought in contact with persons who had been in the 
institution as inmates, what, if any complaint, did you hear? 
A. Not any. » 
Q. Did you ever examine, on any of your visits, the beds and 
bedding at the institution? A. No, sir. I looked at them as 
I went in. They looked neat. 
Q. You didn’t overhaul them? A. I hadn’t any occasion 
to. 
Q. Did you ever go into the cooking department to see what 
was there? A. No. 
Q. Did you ever see the inmates at their meals? A. No ; I 
would only stop to dinner, and go‘right back on the afternoon 
train. I would be at dinner, I suppose, the same hour they 
were. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) And, I suppose, dined with the 
officers? A. I dined with Capt. Marsh, at his table. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, when you went into the fpund- 
ling department there, what did you see? A. I just looked in. 
The baby I carried up was a nice-looking baby, and I looked in 
to see who had him in her arms, and he was in the arms of a 
nice-looking lady^. 
Q. Did you follow the child after that? A. No. 
Q. Know anything about its history, whether it lived, or 
whether it didn’t live ? A. No. 
Q. You never carried but that one child there? A. I car- 
ried children for the overseers of the poor, when they wanted to 
send a child carefully; twice I have carried children. 
Q. Twice before that one you referred to? A. Yes. 
Q. That makes three times in all? A. Yes. 
Q. Now, did you ever examine the foundling hospital at any 
of the other visits when you carried children ? A. I did not; 
no ; I hadn’t time ; I would have been glad to. 
Q. Did you ever know Eva Bowen ? A. I did. 
Q. When did you know her? A. In Chelsea. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
1741 
Q. Where did she live at the time when you knew her? A. 
She lived in Chelsea. 
Q. What street and number, if you recollect? A. I can’t 
think of the name of the street; I could probably go to the 
house. 
Q. Did you know her father? A. Knew him well. 
Q. Did he attend the same church where you did? A. He 
did. 
Q. Eva go the Sabbath school? A. She did. 
Q. Was she in your class? A. No. 
Q. What did you have to do with the Sabbath school? A. 
1 had the infant class. 
Q. Did Mrs. Bowen attend the same church? A. She did. 
Q. Did you ever talk, — I don’t ask you now what was said, 
— but I ask you if you ever had an}' conversation with Mr. 
Bowen about Eva? 
Gov. Butler. I object. 
Mr. Brown. Simply the fact, not what was said. 
Gov. Butler. 1 don’t care; the fact is not competent, 
because it is entirely incompetent. If he said she was a good 
girl, or if he said she was a bad girl, it would be immaterial. 
Now, why put in a talk, when you can’t put in what was said? 
What does it prove ; suppose we stop right there? It is as im- 
material as if you asked her if he talked about the weather. 
Mr. Brown. That might be material. 
Gov. Butler. I wish you would state some materiality. 
Mr. Brown. Well, Mr. Chairman — 
Gov. Butler. Upon this question, — to ask a person, did 
you ever talk with another; that is all. 
The Chairman. I don’t think that question is material. 
Mr. Brown. The chairman will excuse me for explaining my 
view of it. It is this : Eva Bowen has testified that her father 
tried to take her life at Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. No ; she has not. 
Mr. Brown. That he and Nellie Marsh tried to take her life 
at Tewksbury ; that her father wrote a letter to Nellie Marsh, 
which contained some reference to a scheme to take her life at 
Tewksbury, and the life of her child. Now, I asked this ques- 
tion of this witness because, if this witness answered this ques- 
tion in one way, I should not pursue the investigation any fur- 
ther ; if she answered the question in another way, I should then 
follow it up to know what means of information this woman had 1742 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
as to the relation which existed between Mr. Bowen and this 
child, this girl. Now, if the committee say it is entirely imma- 
terial, and the}r don’t care to have me undertake to refute what 
this Eva Bowen has said in regard to the conduct of her father 
and Nellie Marsh, in trying to take her life, that is one thing,—if 
they deem that is immaterial; but, if it is material and proper 
that I should undertake to show that this creature, when she was 
on the witness stand here, told that wdiich was absolutely false, 
and she knew it to be false, — because, not perhaps, with this 
witness, but with other witnesses, I shall be able to show that 
that father clung to her with his kindness, which was proverbial, 
up to the hour when he finally lost sight of her in the darkness 
and gloom into which she delibei'ateU entered for her own pur- 
poses,— that is another thing. Now, it struck me that that 
was material — 
Gov. Butler. Another proclamation. 
Mr. Brown. Well, it is an original one. 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly, because it is a lying one. 
Mr. Brown. Thank you for the compliment. 
Gov. Butler. Quite welcome. 
Mr. Brown. Now, if it is material, and if it has anything 
to do with this case; if her testimony in regard to her treatment 
by Nellie Marsh and her father — because she links them both 
together — has anything to do with this case, then it is proper 
and competent that I should enter upon this kind of inquiry. 
I suppose it is perfectly proper for me to offer a witness to show 
that at the very time when Eva Bowen says her father was con- 
spiring to take her life, that that man’s heart was filled with 
tenderness ; that he was doing her every act of kindness which 
a loving father could suggest to himself, or which his position 
and abdity, financial ability, would permit him to undertake. I 
suppose that would be perfectly competent, and that is the view 
in which I ask this question, which is preliminary. If she sa}'s 
she knew anything about it, I shall proceed ; if she says she 
don’t, I shall stop. That is the view I have of it. 
Gov. Butler. May it please the committee : what is the 
question? I ask you if you ever had any conversation with 
Mr. Bowen ; 1 don’t ask you what it was. That is the ques- 
tion. If it is answered in one way, he says, he will do some- 
thing ; if it is answered the other, he won’t. What information 
as to Eva Bowen do the committee get from that? He admits 
that a conversation would be wrong; she ought not to answer 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1743 
as to that, he admitted by the very form of his question. Now, 
then, we proceed. This is made the ground of hanging a string 
of abuse upon this young woman ; and I speak advisedly, be- 
cause he says that he wants to prove to this committee that 
Miss Eva Bowen lied when she said her father didn’t feel well 
toward her ; when she swore to you on her oath here that her 
father was always kind to her, always treated her kindly, sup- 
plied her with money, and she never knew but what his feelings 
were good. Now, wasn’t that sworn to? Then, why rise up 
here in order to strike this poor girl? Why rise up here and 
say that if it can be shown that the father spoke kindly of her 
that will contradict her ? I don’t care what this lady will say upon 
the subject. However kind he spoke to her — of her — would 
not contradict her. The contradiction of Eva B wen would be 
that her father said he didn’t feel kindly toward her and did 
want to kill her? That would contradict Bowen, because Bowen 
swore expressly, over and over again, ami she said that it was 
the stepmother that did it. and caused the father, at last, to disin- 
herit her with $25 out of a large fortune. That fact cannot be 
wiped out; the will will be here before you whenever they 
attack Miss Bowen. I have no objection to this question as a 
matter of what will be proved, but I object to going in and 
raking up conversations, and sending detectives through New 
York and the purlieus of every other place, to see if somebody 
can’t be found to strike down this young woman. You are 
asked to say that it didn’t make any impression on your minds, 
— her testimony. You have no right to say it now ; in your 
final report you have a right to sa}7 what you please. But are 
you to be misled here ? Is this girl to be attacked by saying 
they can prove the father ioved her and that she don’t tell the 
truth, when she says over and over and over again her father 
loved her all the while and that whatever was done was done 
under the influence of this stepm >ther, who for all ages has 
been known to be in every walk of life the enemy of the child 
that was not her own. When they find anything against Eva 
Bowen that she don’t tell the truth we will meet it; but when 
she tells the truth they are not coming here to blacken her 
reputation by my leave, as far as I can prevent it by showing 
that she did tell the truth exactly, in order to hang a speech 
from the rough side of a lawyer’s tongue against a woman. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman — 
Gov. Butler. I have the reply here, I think, sir. 1744 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. You can close after I get through. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. I know ; but we can’t keep talk- 
ing all dajq and I insist, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, that 
the rule must be applied. 
The Chairman. I think we will submit the question to the 
committee. 
Mr. Brown. I want to say a single word — 
Gov. Butler. I insist upon ray rights. 
Mr. Brown. In explanation, to correct my friend. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. I want to correct a single suggestion which he 
made. 
Gov. Butler. I know ; you want to make a speech. 
Mr. Brown. Not at all, not at all. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t mean you shall. 
The Chairman. I think we had better conform to the rule. 
Mr. Brown. Veiy well. 
The Chairman. Do you wish to have the question submitted 
to the committee ? 
Mr. Brown. I want to have the question passed upon in 
some form. 
Mr. Wolcott. As I remember the testimony of the witness, 
Mary Eva Bowen, a letter was put in, written, if I remember 
rightly, by her father to some nurse or attendant at Tewks- 
bury, in which there was an expression which she said she 
understood to mean that an attempt was to be made upon her 
life, and the purport of her evidence was that such attempt 
upon her life was made there. Now, if the committee believe 
that that was a pure piece of imagination of hers, and are will- 
ing to throw out the imputation that any such attempt was 
made upon her life there, I think we need not go into this 
evidence. If, on the other hand, any members of the committee 
believe that, instigated by her father or by any one else, such an 
attempt upon her life was made at Tewksbury, I think that we 
ought to find out whether or not that is substantiated, or whether 
it can be denied. We have already admitted the testimony of the 
man Andrews, and I think that any repetition of what the 
father of this young woman said is clearly admissible. But, if 
the committee believe that the insinuation that was thrown out 
was wholly a piece of her imagination, I am quite willing to 
accept that and not to go into this matter any further. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1745 
Gov. Butler. I don’t ask that the question shall be ruled 
out upon that ground at all, sir. 
Mr. Wolcott. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Because I shall contend, as far as instruct- 
ed now, that it was not only not a freak of the imagination, but 
it was the truth. 
Mr. Brown. Can I say a word now? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know any occasion for you to say 
anything. 
Mr. Brown. I should like to ask your permission. I want 
to go still a step further ; I want to show this mother never was 
a stepmother, and that the poetry which m37 friend indulged 
in a moment ago is absolutely without foundation. 
Gov. Butler. Not even as well as that, for Eva was an 
adopted child. She had neither the love of a father nor of a 
mother for a child, to restrain — 
Mr. Brown. Never had a stepmother. 
Gov. Butler. Worse than a stepmother ; because a step- 
mother might have some regard for her husband’s child. 
[Mr. Wolcott moved the question be admitted. Carried.] 
Q. Did you ever talk, — I don’t ask you now what was 
said, but I ask you if you ever had an}T conversation with Mr. 
Bowen about Eva? I don’t ask you what was said, but I ask 
you if you ever had any conversation with Mr. Bowen with 
regard to Eva? A. I had. 
Q. Do you recollect the time when Eva Bowen left her 
home? A. When I returned from mv summer vacation in 
1874, she was missing. 
Q. Did you ever, L don’t ask you what was said, did you 
ever have any conversation with her father in regard to her 
being missing? 
Gov. Butler. I object again. Now we have got a new 
question. In 1874 she was missed, but that is not the time of 
which Eva Bowen speaks. What the father’s idea about her 
some years before or after was, don’t give, what his feelings 
were at the time when she was at Tewksbury with that child, 
even putting it upon the narrow ground upon which one of the 
committee argued it, which it hasn’t any tendency to show, in 
my judgment. The question was put upon the ground to show 
that he had affection for her, and it don’t tend to show that he 
had affection for her in 1876, because he had affection for her in 
1874, before she had behaved ill or well. And it don’t tend to 1746 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
show he didn’t write a letter, because he might have written a 
letter under duress, as she thought he did. 
Mr. Wolcott. I think it ought to be limited to the time, 
Mr. Chairman, at which the supposed attempt was made. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen : I took this view 
of it. This child went to the hospital on Oak Street on the ninth 
of December, 1874. The child was born, as you will see by 
referring to the 561st page of the record, the testimony of Caro- 
line E. Hastings, — the child was born on the twenty-sixth da}r 
of March, 1875. Now, she went to Tewksbury at a period still 
subsequent to March, 1875. Now, for the purpose of showing, 
— assume that that is the only purpose, for the moment, — for 
the purpose of showing what was the relation between the father 
and this person, it is perfectly competent, — that is, at the time 
when this letter was written, — as to showing the probability 
as to whether he did enter into a scheme to take her life ; it is 
perfectly proper for me to show what was his conduct toward 
this child, for a series, even for a series of years prior to 
that, had been. Now, I commence with 1874. This woman 
came home from her summer vacation ; she found that Eva 
Bowen, who had been in the Sabbath school at the church she 
was attending, was missing. On the ninth of December she 
turns up in the home at Oak Place ; on the twenty-sixth of 
March she was still there, and gave birth to a child. Subse- 
quently, a number of months afterwards, she went to Tewks- 
bury. Now, it is perfectly competent, because at Tewksbury 
was the attempt upon her life, — it is perfectly competent for 
me to show what was the disposition, because that is what we 
are coming at, — what was the disposition of the father toward 
this child, even for a series of }Tears, and, probably, it would 
not coArer more than a year or a 3’ear and a half. I think I can 
show, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, —this is not a proclama- 
tion, — I think I can show that the relation between this father 
and this child was one of such tenderness as has seldom been 
seen or heard of, and that this woman had an opportunity of 
knowing all about it. And, if the witnesses who are familiar 
with the relations of the father and this child, — if the let- 
ters of the father to persons I shall offer here concerning this 
child are admitted, — I think this committee will see that the idea 
that this man could have ever had in his mind any serious pur- 
pose against his child’s life, is perfectly absurd, and that it was 
either a wicked and wilful falsehood on the part of this witness 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1747 
or it was the result of a diseased brain and a wrong imagina- 
tion. I think that must be the result of it; and, upon that 
ground, I ask that this testimony be admitted. 
Gov. Butler. If it was in controversy here at all, which it 
is not, that prior and even after her ill action, — and we will 
try, if you are going into Eva Bowen, to get the history and 
the name of the man before you who was the father of her 
child, — I, should be very glad to go into that — 
Mr. Brown. I don’t care to go into it. You can go into it 
or not, just as you choose ; I sha’n’t object. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t suppose you do, but I do. If we are 
going to have the history of Eva Bowen, we will have the whole 
of it. Now, I say, if it was in controversy, which I have not 
raised and which she has not raised, that her father felt kindly 
toward her in 1874, before she had done anything except to get 
the teaching of this Sabbath school, why, then, it would be well 
enough to have the testimony that he did feel kindly. I don’t 
deny; yes, I claim that he felt kindly toward her, and he hunted 
her up and carried her to Chardon Street, protected her, 
and took care of her, and from Chardon Street he sent her 
to Tewksbury, supposing it was a proper place for her. And the 
letter he wrote, what was it? He said it would be better for the 
family if she and her child were dead ; that is all. And how 
man}r a loving father has said of his child, I had rather that she 
were in her grave than here, under such circumstances. How 
it was interpreted by the person who gave the medicine is an- 
other question. So, it does not prove anything to show what 
the father said to this woman, because I agree that he felt 
kindly. Miss Bowen testified to you, and I observed gentlemen 
of the committee were careful to leave that out of their state- 
ment,—Miss Bowen testified to you that she believed her father 
always loved her, even after that. Now, in order to get up 
something on which prejudice may hang an argument, it is pro- 
posed to show, what? That the father did. How does that 
contradict her? It don’t prove the thing wasn’t done ; it has no 
tendency. It don’t contradict her, for she swears from then till 
now, notwithstanding her disinheritance by this worse than a 
stepmother, — because this woman got her disinherited, she 
being no relation to Mr. Bowen nor to her, in any form or way. 
But if we are going into it, be it so. But the door will be 
opened widely. I think it is not competent. It is not the hear- 
say of Andrews. The hearsay of Andrews that I put in was 1748 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
when he was dealing with dead bodies, he told where he got his 
supply. The father was not dealing with his girl in Tewksbury. 
The difference is as wide to an}' lawyer or to a member of the 
bar, even, as heaven and earth. The difference is this : I am 
about changing my residence ; I am actually moving. A man 
says to me, “Where are you going?” “ I am going to take up 
nay home in Boston.” That is good evidence, because it accom- 
panies the act. That is hearsay, precisely as with Andrews, 
when he was asked, “Where did you get those bodies?” “I 
got them from Tewksbury.” It accompanied the act. The 
source of your supply! “Where were these oranges from?” 
“ From Florida.” Good evidence. But Andrews could not be 
asked out here in the country, and 1 never asked him anywhere 
else what he said about it. When the father was sending this 
girl to Tew'ksbury, if he said what lie sent her for, it might or 
might not be good evidence. It would be, if it contradicted 
anybody. But what he said two years before is no evidence to 
anybody to prove an}- fact. It is like conversation in the coun- 
try. Now, again, I protest against this course of questioning. 
Mr. Murphy. I move that the question be not admitted. 
The Chairman. There seems to be no controversy about the 
feeling between the father and the girl at a time previous to the 
trouble. 
Mr. Brown. I was going to make a suggestion. From what 
Ilis Excellency has said, I understand he does not claim there 
was hostile feeling between the father and the daughter. 
Gov. Butler. No; never. I should contradict my own wit- 
ness if I did. She has sworn there never ovas. 
Mr. Brown. Then, 1 understand, no use will ever be made 
by you of the claim, testified to by Eva Bowen, that this letter 
contained a suggestion on the part of her father that she should 
be removed? 
Gov. Butler. I say over again that I shall claim that the 
letter was the suggestion of this stepmother. 
Mr. Brown. Through the father ? 
Gov. Butler. Through the father, — better if the child was 
dead. 
Mr. Brown. Very well; I will leave it right there. I shall 
have the stepmother here and I think I can settle that business. 
Gov.-Butler. Thank God. 
The Chairman. I understand you don’t press the question? 
Mr. Brown. No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1749 
Mr. Risteen. I see on page 551, in answer to a question by 
Mr. Brown, the witness said she thought her father loved hen 
Gov. Butler. Will the gentleman of the committee have 
the kindness to read it? I haven’t the volume with me. 
Mr. Putney. I should like to call the attention of the 
tleman to page 553, the re-direct examination. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading from the record.] “ You think he 
loved you and sympathized with you.” “ I think he loved 
me.” 
Mr. Learnard. I call attention to the nest question, on the 
top of the 552d page ; the question and answer immediately 
following. 
Mr. Brown. That is what I referred to. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] “ He wanted to get me out of 
the way, evidently.” Now, then, if you will go further you will 
find my examination after that. 
Mr. Brown. Yes; on page 553. 
The Chairman. 1 think any questions touching upon the 
feeling between the father and the girl should be confined to 
about this time when she was at Tewksbury. 
Mr. Risteen. Page 553, re-dircet examination. 
Gov. Butler. Here it is. [Reading.] “ Now, madam, 
your father died and left a will, didn’t he?” “ Yes, sir.” “ In 
that will you were disinherited, and the money went to your 
step-mother, — all the property?” “Yes, sir.” “Did you 
believe, at Tewksbury, when you were sent away from your 
father’s house, and all the time you were put around in these 
places, that this was done under the inspiration of your step- 
mother?” “Yes, sir.” “ Did you blame your father for it at 
all?” “No, sir.” “ Was he under the control of your step- 
mother?” “Yes, sir.” “And his will was made in her fa- 
vor?” “ Yes, sir.” “ And you were left out, with $25, I be- 
lieve?” “Yes, sir.” “And you got that?” “Yes, sir.” 
“ At the time Mrs. Rowell or Miss Marsh, one or the other of 
them, got this letter, which was read to you, you believed that 
your father was kindly disposed towards you, did you ?” “Yes, 
sir.” “And he was at that time sending you mone}'?” 
“Yes, sir.” “And yet you say you believed that he would 
have been glad to have you taken out of the way. Why ?” 
“ Because he was afraid that people,—that his acquaintances 
would know anything, — ” “ Would know what had happened 
to you. Did you also believe that he was acting under the in- 1750 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
spiration of your stepmother?” “Yes, sir.” “Now, how 
long was it after Mrs. Rowell read this letter to you, or this 
portion of a letter, that it would be better for the family if you 
were dead, before you got that dose?” “ Possibly two weeks 
after.” “Two weeks after,—the dose which you described 
yesterday, which came so near killing you?” “Yes, sir.” 
“ For which you say Mrs. Rowell gave the antidote. After 
you got back to Dedham did your father visit you?” “ Yes, 
sir.” “ And did he give you money?” “ Yes, sir.” “ Whether 
all these sums that he gave you in various places were not 
simpl}- to cover the disgrace of the family?” “Yes, sir/’ 
“ Now, then, you have been adjured two or three times on your 
oath, — have you, so far as to know or can recollect, told the 
whole truth and the exact truth?” “ Yes, sir.” “ Now, did 
you ever tell this story to anybody until after your father was 
dead, so that it would not harm him.” “ No, sir.” “ Was 
not the reason that you kept it quiet, kept still about it, 
solely out of respect to him?” “ Yes, sir.” “ How soon after 
his death did you tell it?” “Probably a month after.” If 
there can be any kinder relation than that, I should like to see 
it. 
Mr. Wolcott. On page 550, the question is, “ Did you have 
any respect for your father? ” “ Certainly.” “ Respect for the 
man who wanted to take your life, did you?” “Yes, sir.’ 
“ You did have respect for the man who wanted to take your 
life. You knew that that was his purpose, did you ? You knew 
that your stepmother wanted to take your life, did you?” 
“ Yes, sir.” And so on. Now, I submit that the whole pur- 
port of that evidence was to show that her father, instigated by 
her mother, perhaps, but that her father wrote a note that was 
intended to suggest to an officer at Tewksbury that this woman’s 
life should be taken, and that such attempt should be made. 
The evidence was evidently intended so by the witness, and it 
was certainly so understood by me. I think, under the rules that 
have been laid down by the votes of this committee for admit- 
ting evidence, that evidence showing the relation of the father 
to this daughter at or about that time, — close to that time when 
this letter was written, which was understood to be an instiga- 
tion to murder, and was claimed to be acted upon as an insti- 
gation to murder, — ought to be admitted. I move that, 
limiting it to that period, that the question be admitted. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1751 
Gov. Butler. The period asked for now is 1874, — two 
years, nearly. 
Mr. Wolcott. I have already said it ought to be limited to 
that period. 
Gov. Butler. There is another motion pending. 
Mr. Wolcott. Limit it to a time after her going to the 
Oak Place Home. 
Mr. Murphy. I made a motion that the question be not ad- 
mitted. 
Mr. Wolcott. I offer my motion as a substitute for Mr. 
Murphy’s. 
Mr. Putney. It is a question in my mind whether or not 
that letter which has been spoken of realty meant what it has 
been construed here. The word in there, “ remove,” seemed to 
me at the time of the hearing, and has seemed to me since, to 
have had reference to removal to some other institution ; be- 
cause it is very clearly noticed that immediately after 'this let- 
ter she was removed to Dedham ; and I have had it in my 
mind since that time, whether or not, what was intended as the 
object of that letter, was not, instead of such a removal as some 
of us are construing it to mean, a removal to some other insti- 
tution. Now, I have looked over the evidence very carefully, 
and I took particular pains to listen to it from the witness her- 
self, and I am certainty of the opinion that she felt that her 
father was in sympathy with her during these years of her diffi- 
culty, and, while she received from him money at different 
times, — small sums, — at the same time the father was under 
the subjection and the control of the stepmother, and, to a large 
extent, she might have suffered from her father, but, virtually, 
from the stepmother herself. Now, it seems to me that is the 
tone of the evidence all through there, and that is why I voted 
as I did against the admission of the question. 
The Chairman. The question conn s upon the substitute mo- 
tion offered by Mr. Wolcott. 
Mr. Brown. I should like to say a single word, if the Chair 
please. I believed at the time, or when I heard the evidence I 
believed, just as has been suggested by the gentleman of the 
committee, that that word “remove” was perfectly harmless; 
and it was not till the examination which was made here, which 
you heard, which has been referred to by another gentleman of 
the committee, that I thought this girl ever had in her mind, or 
ever entertained the idea, that her father ever had towards her 1752 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
a malicious purpose. But I don’t think anybody can read that 
evidence without coming to the conclusion that this girl intended 
to give you to understand that the word “ remove ” meant to 
take her life ; and that is the view in which I desire to meet it, 
nothing else. 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, the statement is that the counsel 
had the same view of this testimony till after m}T examination. 
Mr. Brown. Not till after your re-examination. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. Not till I heard her make that statement. 
Gov. Butler. Heard her make her statement. But the word 
u murder,” and all that, was put into this woman’s mouth b}T the 
counsel; and I have no doubt that she thought that that was 
the meaning of it, because of what followed. She would not 
have thought so if nothing had happened to her, and her father 
might not have intended anything more ; but whoever read it, 
gave her a dose that came near taking her life, and she came to 
the conclusion that that was what it meant, because of the at- 
tempt made. 
The Chairman. We seem to be getting along very slowly. 
I think I had better put the question on Mr. Wolcott’s substi- 
tute. 
Mr. Chamberlain. If the testimoiyy of Eva Bowen means 
anything, as I listened to it, it means that her father,— that she 
thought her father meant and desired to have her life taken. 
That is what it means to me, exactly. That is what her testi- 
mony meant when she gave it, to my mind. 
The Chairman. All in favor of Mr. Wolcott’s substitute, to 
confine the question to about the time that Miss Bowen left the 
Oak Street Home, or entered the Oak Street Home — 
Mr. Wolcott. To about the time the letter was written, I 
should say, on which this charge is based. 
[The Chairman put the motion as Mr. Wolcott suggested, 
and it was carried.] 
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Brown. 
Q. Mrs. Pearson, did you see Eva Bowen in 1875? A. I 
did. 
Q. Where? A. In the court-room. 
Q. What court-room? A. In Boston, in a private office. 
Q. Do you recollect the building? A. I think it was on 
Washington Street, but I am not positive ; I have been in a 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1753 
number of such private offices, and I didn’t keep any record of 
it. 
Q. Who was present? A. Mr. and Mrs. Bowen and my- 
self, besides the judge. 
Q. Was Eva present? A. She came in. 
Q. Who brought her in, do you recollect? A. I think it 
was an officer, but I am not sure. 
Q. Can you recollect the time of year in which that took 
place? A. It was some little time after she left Oak Place. 
Q. Had the child been born when you saw her at this office. 
A. It had. 
Q. Did she have it with her? A. No. 
Q. Can you tell me where you next saw her after 3rou saw 
her at this office that you speak of? A. I never saw her 
again ; she was given up to the State, then. 
Q. Did you know when it was she went to Tewksbury? 
A. I did not know she was there till I saw it in the investiga- 
tion. 
Q. Can’t you fix the time of the year when that was? You 
say it was after she left Oak Place. [Witness paused.] 
Gov. Butler. If iou want to place it I can tell you how 
you can. 
The Witness. How? 
Gov. Butler. She was sent to Dedham, wasn’t she? 
The Witness. Yes, sir ; from there. 
Gov. Butler. That fixes it. 
The Witness. I supposed she would be sent to the Lancas- 
ter school but on account of her baby, — her father didn’t com- 
plain of anything but disobedience before the judge,—-I sup- 
posed she would be sent there, but she wasn’t. 
Mr. Brown. She was sent to Dedham; we can fix the date 
from that. 
Q. Did you see her after she went to Dedham ? A. I did 
not. 
Q. When did you see her after she went to Tewksbury? A. 
I didn’t know she was there. 
Q. Have you ever Seen her since that time }7ou saw her in 
the court-room? A. Not since the judge sentenced her. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I take the direction of the committee 
whether they say that comes sufficiently near to the time sug- 
gested. 1754 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. She said this was in 1874, when she was 
first missing. 
Mr. Brown. I beg 3'our pardon ; she says it was after the 
child was born. 
The Witness. The child was not born in 1874. 
Mr. Brown. The child was born in 1875. She says it was 
after she left Oak Place ; the child was born in 1875, the 26th 
of March, and this was after that. 
Gov. Butler. I understand this was after; but the question 
you asked and what she answered before, was in 1874. 
The Chairman. I understand th*at question has dropped 
out. 
Mr. Brown. That has dropped out; that has gone. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; that has gone. Now, then, she 
saw them in the court-house,— in some private office. 
The Witness. Saw the judge in a private office, a private 
hearing. 
Gov. Butler. A private office of a judge ; I don’t know 
what judge it was doing that; passing judgment in private 
offices. 
The Witness. I understand that is what they do in sending 
to Lancaster. I have been there several times. 
Gov. Butler. I understand that; lam going into'that. I 
don’t understand a judge has any more right to pass upon one 
case than another in private offices, and I shall find out how 
that is. 
Mr. Learnard. I move that the question be admitted. 
Mr. Murphy. What is the question to be admitted ? 
Mr. Brown. I have not asked any question. 
Mr. Learnard. 1 move that the matter be admitted. 
Mr. Brown. I was going to say if the committee think I 
have brought this within a time when the committee think they 
ought to know, I will ask the question. 
The Chairman. It seems to me it is within the time. 
Mr. Brown. I will put the question and then we will see. 
Q. Mrs. Pearson, at the time when you last saw the father 
and the mother and the daughter together, did you have a 113- 
conversation with the father? Now, not what it was, but did 
you have an3* conversation about the child? A. Not in that 
room. 
Q. But, on that day, did 3Tou? A. Before I went there. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1755 
Q. Now, I will ask you this question : what was the relation 
between the father and the child at that time ? 
Gov. Butler. I object. You don’t ask for the conversa- 
tion. 
Mr. Brown. No. 
Gov. Butler. You ask her judgment. 
Q. I will ask you what conversation took place between 
you, — to bring it straight to the committee, — on that day, and 
the father about the child ? 
Gov. Butler. Upon the whole, I should like to have it out 
myself, I guess. 
Mr. Brown. So you don’t object ? 
Gov. Butler. On that day. 
Mr. Brown. On that day. 
A. He asked me if I would go with him; he said his wife 
felt so very bad she wanted me to go with them to the hearing. 
Q. What other conversation? A. He said he could not 
bear to say anything against his child ; and the mother said so, 
too. 
Q. Now, anything else? A. He wanted to know if I was 
called upon if I could testify she was disobedient. I said I 
could, and that is all. I was not called upon to say anything 
because she pled guilty. 
Q. Now, did you have any other conversation with the 
father about the child? A. He' said he would pay all her bills ; 
he didn’t wish to give her up to the State to exonerate him from 
supporting her, but he could not govern her. 
Q. Was any of this conversation in the presence of Eva 
Bowen? A. Not a word. 
Q. Not a word. Now, do you recollect of any other con- 
versation which you had with the father on that day? A. I 
remember his telling me that a lad3r, a very kind lady, was to 
take charge of Eva. 
Q. Where ? A. I supposed to take her as she came out 
of the court-room ; she went out immediately. 
Q. Did you know where she went to ; what institution she 
went to on that day? A. I did not; I supposed she was going 
to Lancaster, but when they knew about the baby she could not 
go there. 
Q. Do}*ouknow where she did go? A. I do not. 
Q. Did you ever know or hear, while she was at Dedham, or 
ever see her there? A. No, sir ; 1 never have seen her at all. 1756 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did you ever have an}’ conversation with the father in 
regard to her after the day when you met them in the court- 
room? A. Very often ; and the mother too. 
Q. Down to what time? A. Down to the time she died. 
Q. Down to the time who died? A. I mean that he died. 
Q. Down to the time the father died? A. Yes, sir; 1 told 
him it would break his heart. 
Gov. Butler. Never mind about that, madam. 
Q. Now, I would like to ask what that conversation was. 
What was the conversation that you had with the father about 
the child ? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t object. Clear down to the hour of his 
death. 
A. That he loved her very much, and that he didn’t want 
her to be exposed to the world ; he wished me never to tell 
where I found her at first because it would break her mother’s 
heart, and 1 never did. I supposed it would be a secret to go 
down to the grave with me, till this came up. 
Gov. Butler. You haven’t told us where you found hex- 
first, now. 
The Witness. I suppose 1 have got to. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know that. 
Q. Any other conversation, Mrs. Pearson? 
Gov. Butler. Clear down to the time of his death, madam. 
Q. Any other conversation ? A. Well, he was very anxious 
she might become a Christian ; used to ask me to pray for her, 
to write to her, but I didn’t write to her. 
Q. How frequently did you meet the father? A. As often 
as once a week and sometimes oftener, in the street and at 
church. 
Q. Do you recollect when he died ; what year it was? A. 
I do not. He dropped dead in the church, speaking of the 
prodigal returning home. The subject was how the father loved 
the child, and he rose and said yes, how glad the father always 
was to welcome the prodigal home, and dropped dead. 
Q. Well, now, do you recollect any other conversation you 
ever had with him ? 
Gov. Butler. I object to having any that goes back — 
Q. I mean after the day you were in the court-room ? A. 
He said he should change his will; that he was afraid this man 
had such an influence over her he would lead her to destruction, 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1757 
and she would be better oft' without property than she would 
with. That is what he said to me. 
Now, Mrs. Pearson, 1 will ask you this question : After 
the day when you were in the court-room, which you have re- 
ferred to, down to the day of his death, in any conversation 
with him, did you ever hear him speak otherwise than in the 
most kindly feeling toward his child? A.. Never. 
q. Did you ever hear the mother speak — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I object. 
Mr. Brown. Now, 1 come, Mr. Chairman, to the very 
question which I supposed His Excellency would be perfectly 
willing to admit. 
Gov. Butler. What is that? 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency now takes the position that 
this father was always kind, and this act of wickedness wras 
instigated by the mother. Now, I have got through the father 
and am going after the mother. I want to know, — I will start 
with the scene in the court-room, — from that time down to the 
death of the father,—I want to ask this witness what took 
place between her and the mother as to the child. Because, 
the mother is now the wicked and malicious being behind the 
father, on the theory of His Excellency. 
Gov. Butler. And* that is to be done by proving what this 
mother said ; that is the proposition. 
Mr. Brown. And what she did. 
Gov. Butler. I am not objecting to what she did, but I am 
objecting to what she said. She is alive arid twenfy-one. She 
was not the mother of this child, and it was not her heart, I 
guess, that was going to be broken by an) thing that was done 
by this child. We shall find out directly. And, now, the com- 
mittee are going into what the mother said. Now, shall we go 
into what everybody else said? It is not the mother, even, — 
what this woman that married the man to get his property said? 
The father died with love to the child upon his lips. He felt 
that she would have a better chance in life if she didn’t have 
any money than she would if she did ! Being thrown on to the 
world with the stamp of pauperism, of being in the poorhouse, 
the State almshouse, and the stamp of having wrecked her vir- 
tue and being the mother of an illegitimate child, the way was, 
if we are to believe this woman, the way for her to get on in 
this world was not to have any money. She would get to be a 
Christian much sooner through tribulation. That is the theory 1758 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
on which we start now, and, therefore, we have got very kindly 
words ; but the act was deadly. As kindly as Squeers always 
spoke to his children when he watered their milk. Let them 
bring the woman here to tell us just how she felt; but I object 
to putting in the words of this woman who is not the mother, 
was not the mother, through the mouth of another person. 
The Chairman. 1 think if the woman is alive she had bet- 
ter be called to testily herself. 
Mr. Brown. I intend, Mr. Chairman, to have her here ; but 
when she gets here His Excellency will tell us she has not been 
corroborated. 
Gov. Butler. This would not be an}' corroboration. 
Mr. Brown. I think it would. 
Gov. Butler. Not at all. 
Mr. Brown. The testimony of this witness is certainly 
in corroboration, would be in corroboration of her own testi- 
mony, if her own testimony had already been given. If the 
committee think it better, I will limit this inquiry, now, to what 
the mother did, so as to save all trouble. 
Gov. Butler. Very well. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Pearson — 
Gov. Butler. Not what she said. 
Q. Not what she said, but what, within }'our knowledge, 
did Mrs. Bowen do with and for Eva after the day when you 
were in the court-room there together up to the day of the death 
of the father.. A. I don’t know what she did. 
Gov. Butler. We will stop there, then. 
Q. But you do know what? 
Gov. Butler. I object. 
Mr. Brown. 1 want the whole answer. 
Gov. Butler. The question is, what did she do? And she 
said she didn’t know what she did. Now, you want to try to 
get in what she said. 
Mr. Brown. No ; I don’t want to get in what she said. I 
want to know what she testifies, and 1 think the witness is en- 
titled to answer the question. 
Gov. Butler. She has answered it. 
Mr. Brown. When it appears she is going to give wliat is 
hearsay I shall stop her. 
Gov. Butler. I understand ; she has answered the question 
fully. What did she do? I don’t know what she did, said the 
witness. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1759 
Mr. Brown. That don’t answer my question, fully. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; it does. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon. 
Gov. Butler. You asked what she did, and she said she 
don’t know what she did ; that answers the question fully. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think it does. 
Gov. Butler. Why not? It is only to have this over- 
charged battery go off. 
Mr. Brown. Oh, no ; there is no battery here that is over- 
charged. 
The Chairman. If the witness wishes to qualify her answer 
in any way she can do so. 
Q. Do you wish to qualify your answer ? 
Gov. Butler. Not by telling what she said. 
Q. I don’t want you to tell what Mrs. Bowen said; I sim- 
ply ask in regard to what she did. A. Well, in all my ac- 
quaintance with her and in my company, she acted very kindly ; 
I can say that. 
Q. Now, I don’t ask you what she said, but I will ask you 
this question : did you ever know her, during that period, to 
do any unkindly thing toward this child? A. No; nor any 
other child. 
Gov. Butler. This is enough for the present, madam. 
The Witness. This is new business to me, you know. 
Q. She had how many adopted children ? 
Gov. Butler. Well, I object. We certainly can’t go into 
that question here. If she had many adopted children, I should 
not blame her for killing off some of them. 
Mr. Brown. I think it bears somewhat on this case that this 
Eva was one of four or five adopted children ; they never had 
any children of their own. We shall have some of these 
adopted children here by and by. 
Gov. Butler. When they come we will deal with them. 
Mr. Brown. I know we will. 
Gqv. Butler As well as we can. 
Mr. Brown. But I think it is a fair question as giving this 
committee a little light upon this subject, that this child was 
only one of a number of adopted children. 
Gov. Butler. What would you deduce from it? What does 
that prove ? That they were more kindly disposed to her be- 
cause they had more ? 1760 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. It is not for me to make deductions ; it is for 
the committee. 
Gov. Butler. But evidence to be competent must prove 
something. Because they had more, does it prove of necessity 
that they felt more kindly toward this one? There might be a 
reason for getting this black sheep out of the way to save the 
rest. Which way are we to have it? I suppose there must be 
some sort of pertinency to evidence put in. All I desire is to 
limit the inquiry. 
Mr. Putney. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that if this 
stepmother is to be brought on here as a witness it is fair for 
this committee to get what inference they can from her testi- 
mony ; and then, if there is any desire on the part of Mr. Brown 
to impeach her character for truth and veracity, etc., then it 
would be competent afterwards. It seems to me that this evi- 
dence, coming before the live witness comes here, is out of 
place entirely. 
The Chairman. • Do you press the question, Mr. Brown? 
Mr. Brown. No ; T won't press the question. I will pro- 
duce Mrs. Bowen if it is a possible thing. She is in a remote 
part of Maine, but T think we can 'get her here. 
Gov. Butler. She will come, undoubtedly. 
Mr. Brown. The great difficult}' is, the ladies don't like to 
meet you, Governor. I don’t know what the reason is. 
Gov. Butler. Everywhere else but here. 
Mr. Brown. Your witness. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Pearson, you have a good many foundlings, 
have you ? A. I have had those brought to the house. 
Q. Foundling children, I mean? A. Yes, sir; they were 
all foundlings. 
Q. About how many? A. Well, 1 know eighteen. 
Q. And were they an average lot of foundlings, about such 
as were picked up wherever they might happen to be ? A. 
Yes. 
Q,. Have you any now ? A. No. 
Q. Have you ever had any the Board of State Charities 
brought in? A. No. 
Q. How many of those died on your hands in. five weeks? 
A. Not any. 1883.j 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1761 
Q. Your foundlings nil lived. How many of them grew up? 
A. Only two of them died that I know of. 
Q. Only two out of eighteen. 
The Chairman. I don’t understand; two died, or two 
lived ? 
Oov. Butler. Two died out of eighteen. Oh, no, Mr. 
Chairman, this is not Tewksbury. 
Q. Did you take more care of them than people usually 
take of foundlings, well-disposed people, so far as you know? 
Did you take any other or better care of them than people do 
ordinarily? A. I don’t know what care other people take, but 
1 took good care of them. 
Q. You took good care of them, I have no doubt. Did you 
bring them up on the bottle generally? A. My nurses did. 
Q. Did you put them into the hands of other people to 
nurse? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where did you get these nurses? A. When I had a 
nurse I found them in Chelsea, Sometimes I gave them away 
without nursing. 
Q. Where did you have them ; in what institution ? Did you 
have them in any institution? A. No, sir. 
Q. Had them at your own home? A. At my own house. 
Q. And how many did you have at a time there? A. One 
at a time. 
Q. Didn’t you ever happen to have more than one at a time? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. I didn’t know but they might bring in three or four. And 
extended over what period of years? A. The time I was mis- 
sionary. 
Q. You seem to have been a very good woman to them and 
treated them very well and kindly. Do you know any’ especial 
reason why a foundling child won’t live as well as any other 
child? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, why? A. In the first place they arc not wanted, 
and don’t have any love. 
Q. What? A. They don’t have much love for them; a 
child wants love, l think. 
Q. They are not wanted? A. They are not wanted to 
live. 
Q. I understand ; but after tlie\’ have been left one side to 
be taken cart' of by others, the wants and don’t wants have 
passed away, haven’t they ? That don’t have any effect upon 1762 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
them after they get into your hands? A. It is owing to 
v whether they are in loving hands or not. 
Q. When they get into loving hands they are all right? A. 
Yes. 
Q. Yes. Now, we will take a case. Here is a young 
mother, a young, vigorous mother, and here is a young father, 
and they have a child, an illegitimate child, and they lay it on 
some kind person’s doorstep ; and, then, that person can’t take 
care of it and sends it to you. Now, do you know any reason 
wftiy that child, the child of young parents and healthy, 
not live, if it didn’t get frozen on the way, and no 
Jharm happpens to it, as well as any other child? A. The}'are 
almost always drugged, so that has an influence on them. 
Q. When they are drugged. How many of those that you 
received were drugged? A. I think most of them were. 
Q. What? A. Most of them were, except those I took out 
of ttlieir mothers’ hands. 
Q. Most of them were, except what you took out of the 
mothers’ hands ; but you managed to bring them all up. Which 
were those that died, the drugged ones or the ones that weren’t? 
The two that died, were they drugged ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long did they live? A. I could not tell you now ; 
I kept no record of it. 
(Q. Weeks or months? A. Weeks, surely. 
Q. Weeks, surely. Did you get them when they were very 
young? A. Yes. 
Q. Get them a day or two old, sometimes? A. Four or 
'five hours. 
Q. You had remarkably good success. Sixteen out of 
eighteen is a good deal better than none out of seventy-one. 
Well, you never sent but one to Tewksbury? A. I carried 
for the overseers of the poor; I had nothing to do with them, 
but the one I carried up. 
Q. One you carried up. A. A foundling. 
Q. What? A. A foundling. 
Q. Any particular disease with it ? A. No. 
Q. Was that an average foundling? A. I think it was. 
Q. Do you remember the name? A. It had no name; I 
named it. 
Q. You named it? A. They named it at Tewksbury. 
Q. What did they name it at Tewksbury? A. Williapi 
Pearson. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1763 
Q. Now, let us find William Pearson. We will find what 
happened to him. You don’t know whether he lived or died? 
A. No. 
Q. And never inquired ? A. No. 
Q. Never had interest enough in William. What date was 
it, about? A. It was since 1878 ; I think it might be 1879. 
Q. 1879 or 1880 ; but, don’t you know they stopped taking: 
foundlings up to Tewksbury because they all died, sometime 
about 1880? A. Yes. 
Q. Was it before or after that? A. It was before, 
Q. AIL Bight; now we have got it right down to the point1,, 
you see; and about how long before? A. I could not tell) 
you. The}' were always sorry when I brought one there.- they 
told me. 
Q. What? A. They were always sorry when; I brought one 
there. 
Q. I didn’t quite get what you said. A.. They always told 
me they were sorry when I brought one. 
Q. They always told you they were sorry ; why ? Because 
it was sure to die? Wasn’t that the reason they gave? A. I 
can’t tell you, sir. 
Q. Didn’t you ask, what are you sorry for? That is what 
you are here for, to take care of foundling children, and the 
State has got this institution and puts you here and keeps you 
and pays you ; why are you sorry? Didn’t you ask them that? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. They always told you they were sorry. Now, didn’t you ; 
ask them why they were sorry ? A. No. 
Q. And you didn’t have any idea why they were sorry ? A.. 
Yes, I did ; I supposed it was because they didn’t have so good. 
care there as if they were adopted ; that is my idea. 
Q. Why shouldn’t they have just as good care with the' 
whole State of Massachusetts behind them to take care of them? 
A. I understood that poor people that were sent there had to' 
take care of them, and I supposed they wouldn’t love them as 
they did their own. 
Q. Wouldn’t love them as they did their own. Other peo- 
ple, when they adopt them, don’t generally love them as the}' do 
their own, quite? A. No. 
Q. And you didn’t love them any better than your own? 
You have had children of your own, I hope? A. No, sir. 
Q. Have not. Then you don’t know what the difference in 1764 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the love would have been. You loved yours and look care of 
them, those you had in your hands, and took excellent care of 
them, madam, to your credit be it spoken, a larger percentage 
than I have ever known, you saved of lives, and for which you 
deserve commendation, so far as I am concerned. Now. madam, 
1 want to know further about these children. Were they always 
the children of poor people, apparently, by their dress? A. 
Not always. 
Q. Some had good dresses on, good clothing, showing 
that somebody had a little care in preparation ; a little inserting 
and a little lace, and little things of that sort? Sometimes 
nicely and warmly7 done up when they were left? A. Some- 
times. 
Q. Sometimes ; and sometimes they were not. Which do 
you think most frequently, — that they were? A. Were not. 
Q. Now, I am very much obliged to you for all this, 1 as- 
sure you. Now, madam, we. will come to Eva Bowen. Prior 
to her being in this room, — who was the judge, in the first 
place? A. It was in Boston. 
Q. Well, Boston is considerable of a village; what street? 
A. I have the impression, sir, it was on Washington Street. 
Q. Who was there besides you and Eva, and the person that 
brought in Eva : 1 suppose some officer came with her, or some- 
body7, and Mr. and Mrs. Bowen? A. No one else. 
Q. There was a judge there, wasn’t there? A. I think 
there was a judge. 
Q. Judge who? A. I can’t tell you his name, sir. 
Q. Ever seen him before? A. 1 could not say. 
Q. Was there any testimony taken? A. She pled guilty. 
Q. Pled guilty to what? A. When he read to her what 
the complaint was against her she said, guilty. 
Q, That was for disobedience, wasn’t it? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. What act of disobedience had you ever seen her do? 
“ Will iam Pearson, three months old.” [Referring to the 
Tewksbury register.] Is that about it? A. That is what 
they judged. 
Q. “ 3-12 months, unknown, comes from Chelsea, foundling, 
May 17, 1879, found at 44 Williams Street.” That was so, 
was it? A. lres. 
How long had you had it? A. I kept it one night. 
Q. What? A. I kept it one night. 
Then, it was a three months old child, and you kept it 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1765 
one night; and it was an ordinary foundling, as to health ; and 
it came in here, by this record, on the twenty-sixth of April, and 
was dead on the seventeenth of May. Now, let us try any 
more you carried there. When, did you carry the other? A. 
I don’t remember, sir. 
Q. About when? A. It was before this. 
Q. How long before? A. I could not tell you, sir ; it was 
some time. 
Q. Can you give me the name of those you carried? A. 
No; I didn’t write them down, because they were not my 
children ; the overseer or the city marshal would send for me. 
Q. The overseers of the poor wanted you to take them up 
there? A. Yes; they wanted me to take the child up. 
Q. Because you were a kindly person, and they wanted you 
to take care of them ; and you did take very good care of them, 
and they were well and comfortable, so far as you know, when 
you left them. A. The other children I carried were miserable 
looking children. 
Q. Well, Pearson was all right? A. Yes. 
Q. But these others were miserable looking children. Don’t 
you know the names? A. No; 1 had nothing to do about it. 
The names were on the paper; the overseers of the poor would 
give me a paper, and I handed it to Captain Marsh. 
Q. Can’t you tell me, so I can look it up? A. No, I can’t; 
if 1 could, I would. 
Q. Now, then, when you got up there, into what room did 
you go? A. I went into the office. 
Q. That is one. What was the next one? A. I went 
around into the yard. 1 don’t know what rooms the}' were. 
They were where the poor people were, men and women. 
Q. How long did you stay there in that institution? A. 
When I would go up, I would arrive there somewhere near 
twelve, and I don’t know' whether I would leave at two or three ; 
but whenever the train came back on the Lowell road. 
Q. In the meantime, you would get your dinner, of course? 
Now, did 3Tou ever step inside of this foundling hospital? A. 
I did not, sir. 
Q. How near the door were you at anytime? A. I was 
at the door, and looked in. 
Q. How long did you stay there, looking in? A. Not 
long. 1766 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Just a moment. Did you go into the insane ward? A. 
No. 
Q. Did you go into the hospital ward where the sick were? 
A. I think I did, sir. 
Q. How long did you stay there? A. Simply walked 
through. 
A. Did you look into any of the closets? A. No. 
Q. Well, you and I have inspected buildings, a great many 
of them. The place to find out whether a building is well kept 
is in the closets? A. Well, it was not mjr business, sir, to 
inspect the closets. 
Q. You simply walked through ? A. And took a view of 
the hospital. 
Q. That didn’t help you much? A. It satisfied me. 
Q. It satisfied you, as you hadn’t any business to be there? 
A. It satisfied me that I had seen Tewksbury\ 
Q. Had what? A. Had seen Tewksbury. 
Q. You looked into the foundling hospital from the door; 
you had walked through another hospital; you don’t know 
whether you had been in the insane hospital — A. I know I 
was not in the hospital. 
Q. Yes; I know you were not. And yrou were satisfied 
that 3'ou had seen Tewksbury. Hadn’t been in the kitchen ; 
hadn’t been in the dining-room; didn’t know how they lived; 
didn’t know whether they had anything to eat except from Capt. 
Marsh’s table, and you were satisfied that you had seen Tewks- 
bury? A. Yes, I was. 
Q. And you are brought here to tell what sort of an institu- 
tion it is? A. No; I was not brought here for that; I don’t 
know what I was brought here for. 
Q. Now, we will go back to Eva Bowen. How long have 
you known Mr. Bowen? A. Since 1850. 
Q. Had he a former wife? A. No, sir; lived with this 
same one. 
Q. Has he ever had more than one wife ? A. I think not. 
Q. He was living with this one, and he lived in Chelsea? 
A. In Addison, Me., at that time. 
Q. You knew him when he was in Maine, and this woman 
was in Maine? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Were you present at the marriage? A. No; they were 
old people. They were a good deal older people than I am. 
Q. About how old is Mrs. Bowen? A. I don’t know. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1767 
Q. Don’t know. And yet a good deal older than you are. 
Twenty years? A. No ; I think not. 
Q. Well, now, madam, tell me, not what she said, but tell 
me what act you ever saw Mrs. Bowen do for or against Eva 
after she left that room where there was a supposed judge. A. 
I told you I didn’t know what she did. 
Q. Pardon me ; I don’t care what you told me ; I want you 
now' to tell me. Tell me any act you know she did for or 
against Eva. A. I don’t know of any. 
Q. Very well. Tell me any act that you know that she did 
either for or against her before that day, that you saw her do. 
A. I saw her making infant clothes, and wrappers and things 
for her after she was carried to Oak Place. 
Q. Making infant clothes? A. And wrappers for Eva, to 
make her comfortable. 
Q. That was before she went there? A. When she was 
there, and before the babe was born. 
Q. Was her babe born at Oak Place ? A. It was. 
Q. And that you saw. You saw her making wrappers for 
her infant that was to be. Any other? A. No. 
Q. Very well. Now, then, why did you tell Mr. Brown here 
that she always acted kindly toward her, if you never saw any 
kind act after she went to Dedham? A. Well, I was not to 
say what she said. 
Q. I know you were not. Now, see, madam, where we 
are. You were asked if you ever knew her to do anything, and 
you said \'ou did not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. After she left for Dedham. You said that you did not. 
Then Mr. Brown was not quite satisfied, and wanted to know if 
you did not want to change your answer, and you said she 
always acted kindly toward her. Now you say you never saw 
her do any act. What did you tuck that in for — acted kindly? 
A. Well, when she was speaking of her; that is what I meant 
by it. 
Q. Then you wanted to put in what she said under the pre- 
tence of putting in what she did? A. I did not know any 
other way. It showed that she thought kindly of her. 
Q. You were determined to have it in anyhow, weren’t you ; 
because you did put it in? A. I didn’t care whether it was in 
or not. 
A. You cared enough to put it in, when you knew }’0u ought 
not to, and when you were told 3’ou ought not to. You cared 1768 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
enough for that, didn’t you? Now, madam, let us see about 
Eva. How old was Eva when you first knew her? A. I think 
she might have been eleven or twelve. 
Q. Was That before or after Mr. Bowen had adopted her? 
A. Oh, after. 
Q. Did Mr. Bowen ever tell you who her mother was? A. 
fie never did. 
Q. Did he say anything, whether he knew who she was or 
not? A. lie never did. 
Q. She was eleven or twelve years old, and she went and 
did—how old was she when she had this misfortune? A. 
Well, I think she was in her sixteenth year. 
Q. In her sixteenth year. And now, madam, she had been 
to school in Chelsea, and been taking music lessons? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And had been to the Boston Art School, or had been at 
the Normal Art School? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And was it while she was at the Normal Art School that 
this trouble happened to her? A. J suppose it was. 
Q. And somebody had taken her away, and when 3-011 came 
back from your vacation her father came to 3rou about her 
having gone. Now, then, did 3-011 see her again until you saw 
her at the court-room? A. I did. 
Q. Where did 3-011 see hpr ? A. In Boston. 
Q. Did you go to find her? A. I did. 
Q. Now, what act of disobedience do 3-011 know she com- 
mitted — not what was told 3-ou by anybody else? A. I know 
that she would not go home at the request of her father. 
Q. How do you know that? A. She said she would not; 
she told me so. 
Q. She told you she would not go home. Was she then 
with child? A. Yes. 
Q. After she was with child? A. No; not after. 
Q. Before she was with child? A. No; before she had her 
child. 
Q. I understand ; I take it there is a period, which covers 
some months, when a person is in such condition that she is 
supposed to have a child, though it has not been born. Now, 
was that her condition when she refused to go home ? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And was her father there ? A. No. 
Q. You told her that her father wanted her to go home ? A. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1769 
I told her I had come at her father’s request to find her and 
bring her home to Chelsea. 
Q. What did she sa}’? Did her father come after her? A* 
No. 
Q. She said she would not go with him at any rate? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Was that what she said? A. She didn’t say much. 
Q. Was that the substance of what she said? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you know of her father going to her? A. I went 
for her father. Her father didn’t know where she was, and I 
went and hunted her up. 
Q. After you found her? A. After I took her to Oak 
Place her father went. 
Q. She would not go with him, but she would go with you 
to Oak Place? A. I told her I should stay until she did go, 
and of the two evils she chose the least. 
Q. She would rather go pretty much anywhere rather than 
have you stay there ; and so you went with her to Oak Place ? 
A. I did. 
Q. Did her father go ? A. No. 
Q. She was willing to go to Oak Place, but she was not 
willing to go home? A. She was not willing. I told her I 
had a good place ; I did not tell her where. 
Q. Did you tell her you were going to take her home at all? 
A. I did not. 
Q. Then she had not disobeyed her father ? A. He wanted 
me to find her. She was disobedient. 
Q. How was she disobedient if you only asked her to go 
with you to Oak Place? Where was she disobedient? You 
never asked- her to go to her father; you wanted her to go to 
Oak Place. A. I went after her to take her home. She would 
not go. She was disobedient in that respect, to her father’s 
request. 
Q. You went after her to take her home? Did her father 
tell you to bring her to his house? A. He told me to go and 
find her. 
Q. That is what I have understood. Now, think a little. 
Did her father tell 3’ou to go and bring her to his house? Now, 
that is a direct question. Yes, or no, if you please. A. I 
don’t remember, sir. 
Q. Have you ever remembered whether he did or not? A- 
I have told you. 1770 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Don’t you know that he did not tell you to bring her to 
his bouse? A. No ; I do not. 
Q. Do you know that he did? — Do you know that he did? 
A. I have told you, sir, T could not remember. 
Q. Then you don’t know that he did? Don’t you know that 
you went after her to find her, and then you insisted that she 
should go, not to his home, but that she should go somewhere 
with you, to that Oak Place that you were going to take her to. 
Was not that what you wanted her to do? A. T usually took 
such girls to my home, but I could not on account of sickness ; 
and I took her there as the next best place. 
Q. I don’t care about that. That was all well enough. If 
it hadn’t been for sickness you would have taken her to your 
own home? A. I should, sir. 
Q. But not to her father’s? Not to her father’s? And you 
did take her to Oak Place? Well, now, she went to Oak Place, 
and her father was very kind to her, saw that she was well pro- 
vided for, and spoke kindly and well of her? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Spoke of her as he would of a prodigal son, a sort of lost 
child to him? A. .Not then. 
Q. It was all kindness then ? A. Alwa}Ts was. 
Q. Then why not then ? She had gone evidently and fed on 
husks at that time. Now, didn’t he speak kindly of her then? 
A. Always spoke kindly. 
Q. Then he did then? A. Yes, certainly. 
Q. And then he was very kind and alwaj’s talked with you 
very kindly up to the day of his death ; that was so, was it not? 
A. All but this being disobedient. 
Q. Well, that was when you went to the court-room. A. 
It was after she left Oak Place. She would not obey him. 
Q. Well, he was kind to her? I don’t ask whether she be- 
haved well, I am only asking about his feelings ; they were the 
feelings of a father? A. Of a father, sir. 
Q. And he spoke of her with tears in his eyes? A. Al- 
ways. 
Q. Tears of kindness and regret at her course. Now, when 
was it that he told you he would change his will? A. He 
told me that he should change it. 
Q. When? How long before he died? A. I could not 
tell you, sir ; but it was after she left Oak Place. 
Q, Well, of course it was after she left Oak Place. How 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
1771 
long did tie die after she left Oak Place ? A. I don’t under- 
stand your question, sir. 
Q. How long before he died after she left Oak Place ? A. 
He died, I suppose, while she was at Tewksbury; I don’t re- 
member the exact time,'sir. 
Q. He died while she was at Tewksbury ? A. I think so. 
Q. Now he died while Eva was at Tewksbury? A. I say 
I think so ; I don’t remember, sir. 
Q. Didn’t I understand you to say that you didn’t under- 
stand she was at Tewksbury until you heard of it in this in- 
vestigation? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then you didn’t know the fact about Eva, and the father 
didn’t confide the fact to you? A. He had another lady tak- 
ing care of her then. 
Q. What? A. There was another lady looking after her 
at that time. 
Q. Well, he didn’t let jtou know enough about her to know 
even that she had gone to Tewksbury? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then, if there was another lady looking after her, how 
came he to be confidential about his will? Were you in his 
confidence? A. I thought I was, sir. 
Q. Won’t you begin and give me that conversation. How 
long was it before he died? A. I think it was before she went 
to Dedham. 
Q. A little before she went to Dedham? A. I think it 
was. I don’t know whether he changed his will or not. 
Q.' No, no; I know when he made his will, but I want to 
know — we had never before known of his going to change his 
will before going to Dedham? A. I said I thought so; I 
don’t know the time. 
Q. What time will you swear to ? A. I won’t swear to 
any time. 
Q. Tell me when it was? A. I have got no time for it. 
Q. Where was it that he told you he was going to change 
it? A. At his house. 
Q. Who was there ? A. He and I were alone in the par- 
lor when he made that remark to me. 
Q. Well, could you tell me all the conversation? A. I 
could not remember anything else, sir; it was about Eva, prob- 
ably. 
Q. Do you remember anjdhing else ? A. No. 
Q, You don’t know what went before or after that? A. 1772 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
No, sir; only7 talk about the man that led her astray —that he 
had seen him. 
Q. Did he tell you his name? A. lie did, but 1 have for- 
gotten it, sir. 
Q. Oh, yrou have? That is inconvenient. A. 1 don’t 
want to remember such things. 
Q. I know you don’t want to, and that is the reason why 
you have forgotten it. Now, then, madam, I should like to 
know the name of that man. You know it perfectly? A. I 
do not, sir. 
Q. When did you forget it? A. At ouce. 
Q. You forgot it within five minutes after you heard it? 
A. Probably. 
Q. Probably. Don’t you know ? A. No ; I do not. 
Q. And you forgot it then just as much as you have for- 
gotten it now? Did 3011 forget it then just as much as you 
forget it now? A. I think I did. 1 never have called up the 
name since. 
Q. I don’t ask if you called it up ; you had forgotten it with- 
in five or ten minutes? A. The name didn’t-concern me ; it 
was only" a circumstance. 
Q. Why, y7es ; it might concern you to know whether Eva 
was misled by7 a man older than herself, or a man of some cel- 
ebrity’? A. Yes ; that did. 
Q, Now, was this man, whoever he was, a man of some 
celebrity’? A. He was, as Mr. Bowen told me. 
Q. Rather a well-known name in Boston? A. I think it 
was. 
Q. Don’t you know7 it was? A. By’ w’hat he told me that 
was the fact. 
Q. Clear up to the top ? A. I cannot say, sir. 
Q. Pretty7 near? Yrou and I both know who itwms? A. 
I don’t know, sir. 
Know who Mr. Bowen thought it was. Clear up to the 
top, now, madam? A. I think not. 
Q. Well, who higher? A. The governor. 
Q. The only person above him was the governor; that is 
right. Fortunately’ 1 wras not governor then. Well, now the 
president w’ould have been higher still, wouldn’t he? A. With 
some. 
Q. And, if he had been of the same name as the president, 
then it would have been some one higher than the governor, 1883. 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
1773 
wouldn’t it? Think a moment, madam? A. I don’t know 
your meaning. 
Q. If the name of the man had been the same as the namfe 
of the president, you might have thought it was some one 
higher than the governor, might you not? A. I don’t quite 
get it. 
Q. I know; but a man having his name, that same name — 
well, you believed Mr. Bowen, didn’t }’ou? A. Yes, sir. 
Q And he thought that man would be likely to lead her 
away. Did he say whether that man had any money? Oh, 
don’t laugh at me, but tell me. A. I am not laughing, sir. 
Q. You are laughing in the face, anyhow. A. He said the 
man was a man of influence. 
Q. Did he say he had any money? A. I don’t think he 
did. 
Q. What? A. I don’t think he did say anything about the 
money business. 
Q. But a man of influence and standing — high standing? 
High standing, was it not? A. 1 don’t know anything about 
how high he was. 
Q. I don’t mean high in stature, I mean high standing 
You know what I mean? A. The world thought him so. 
Q. But Mr. Bowen, when he had seduced his daughter, 
didn’t think his standing was as good as it ought to be? Now, 
did he tell you where he lived? Do 3011 want me to name the 
street? A. I don’t know the street, sir. 
Q. Did he tell you where the street was? A. No ; he did 
not. 
Q. Didn’t you know, when he told }'ou who the man was 
where the street was? A. I did not. 
Q. Now, when he told you this about this man, and he was 
afraid he would have influence enough on her to lead her away, 
was that the time that he said he thought that he would change 
his will? A. It was about that time. 
Q. Was it in the same conversation ? A. I cannot tell 
you ; I don’t think it was. 
Q. Whether before that Dedham transaction, before Eva 
went to Tewksbury? A. I never knew she was in Tewks- 
bury. 
Q. I know. We know she didn’t go to Tewksbury until 
after she went to Dedham. Was this all before the court — the 1774 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
time of the court? A. I cannot tell you, because I don’t 
know. 
Q. You don’t know? Did he say that he had been to see 
that man? A. He did. 
Q. Did he say whether he denied it or not? A. He didn’t 
deny it. 
Q. He didn’t deny it; he owned up. I have asked you of 
his standing: was that man of high political standing? A. I 
don’t know. 
Q. Didn’t you know of him? A. No; I didn’t know of 
him. Mr. Bowen told me about him. 
Q. And when Mr. Bowen told you, hadn’t you ever heard 
of him before? Hadn’t you heard of him before? A. I never 
heard of him as a politician. 
Q. Was Mrs. Bowen there when this was told you? A 
No. 
Q. Did you ever talk it over with Mrs. Bowen? A. No. 
Q. Did she ever talk it over with you? A. No; not a 
word. 
Q. Did you ever tell Mrs. Bowen that he thought of chang- 
ing his will? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever tell it to as you have told it here? 
A. No. 
Q. Never told it to mortal man or woman until you have 
told it here on the stand, that he thought of changing his will? 
A. I might have spoken to Mr. Brown ; I think I did. 
Q. Pardon me ; you told us you meant that this conversation 
should go down to the grave with you? A. Well, where I 
found her, that was the conversation. 
Q. Where did you find her? Now, I want that, because she 
has told ? A. I found her among the colored people. 
Q. No particular harm in that, was there, am’thing more 
than to find her anywhere else that she ought not to have been? 
Was that the great secret that was to go down to the grave, 
that she was found among colored people? A. It was the 
finding her, and the circumstances of it, that I didn’t wrant known. 
I never knew that she had become so that she would hide 
away. 
Q. That, is to say, this is the condition of things, as I un- 
derstand it: Some man of high standing and influence had 
seduced this poor girl of fifteen, this Sabbath school scholar of 
fifteen, and she had fled, for some reason, her father’s house 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1775 
and got among the colored people, and that was not to be 
known ; that was it, was it not? A. That was it. 
Q. Well, they didn’t want it known among their friends. He 
felt the disgrace very deeply, didn’t he? A. They all did. 
Q. Leave out the rest. And his wife felt it very deeply? 
A. She did, sir. 
Q. She felt that the whole family had been disgraced by this 
girl. And all this sending her away was to keep it so that it 
should not be known? A. They didn’t send her away; she 
went awajT herself from home. 
Q. I understand that. But this sending her away, taking 
her away to Oak Place and over to Dedham ; all that was in or- 
der that it might not be known, was it not? A. All that I did 
I did on my judgment, that the poor girl’s character might not 
be exposed. 
Q. And you did the best you could, on your own judgment, 
that the thing might not be exposed? A. To save the girl. 
Q. And they concurred in your judgment, didn’t they, that 
this was the best thing to do — Mr. and Mrs. Bowen? A. Of 
course they felt rmT judgment was good or they would not have 
asked me to look her up. * 
Q. And they asked you to take charge of the matter. Well, 
and they alwaj’s spoke of this as a deep disgrace, didn’t they? 
A. They didn’t talk much about it with me. 
Q. I thought Mr. Bowen talked with you a good deal about 
it down to the day of his death? A. He would speak her 
name and then go to weeping. 
Q. Well, she was a very pretty child, wasn’t she? A. Very. 
Q. And a very engaging child? A. Very. 
Q. And a very affectionate child? A. I don’t know any- 
thing about that. 
Q. So far as you know? A. I don’t know anything to the 
contrarj’. 
Q. She was a very good child as a child? A. I could not 
tell. She always appeared well when I was at the house. 
Q. And was a regular attendant upon church and Sabbath 
school. Have you heard her name mentioned since her father 
died by anybody until it came up in this investigation? A. I 
have heard them speak of Eva at the house. 
Q But otherwise than that. Have you ever heard her name 
mentioned otherwise than that? A. Yes; I think people has 
asked me if I knew where Eva Bowen was. 1776 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Who? A. Citizens of Chelsea. 
Q. And you told them ? A. That I did not. 
Q. Now, madam, I want to ask you this : When did the 
people of Chelsea first begin to ask you about it? A. About 
where she was? 
Q. Yes. A. From the time she was missing. 
Q. She went away, and where she went nobody knew, did 
they, so far as you knew? A. Well, I heard before I went 
searching for her, that she was at Lyman Place ; that is all. 
Q. And is that the only going away you knew about? A. 
That is the first going away I knew about. 
Q. Now, did anybody else know where she went to when she 
went from the Consumptives’ Home? A. I never knew she 
was at the Consumptives’ Home until I saw it in the newspapers. 
Q. You don’t seem to know much about it. It was this 
other lady that had her in charge? A. Probably she will be 
here. I cannot tell her name. I know her, but I cannot tell 
her name. 
Q. She will probably be here. How shall I know her, if you 
cannot tell me her name? A. I don’t know, unless Mr. Brown 
can tell you. * 
Q. Oh, Brown knows. How do you know he knows ; did 
he tell you? A. No ; he didn’t tell me. 
Q. Did you tell him? A. No; I think not. 
Q. Then how do you know he knows it? A. I was told 
so. 
Q. What? A. I was told she would be here. 
Q. Who told you that? A. A gentleman here present. 
Q. Mr. Sargent? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When was that? A. It might have been Friday. 
Q. It might have been Tuesday. A. No ; I have not had 
any talic with Mr. Sargent on Tuesday. 
Q. I know ; but you might have had. Was it on Friday? A. 
I think it was. 
Q. Now, can 3*011 tell me any way I can find out that wom- 
an’s name that you have forgotten ? A. No, sir ; I could not, 
honestly. 
Mr. Brown. You haven’t asked me? 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. You haven’t asked me. 
Gov. Butler. When I want information I always ask it of 
those that I suppose will tell me correctly^. 1883.] 
HOUSE—.No. 300. 
1777 
Mr. Brown. That is the reason why 3rou ask me so many 
questions, I suppose. 
Q. Well, madam, I don’t think I shall have to trouble you 
any more except — do you know of any other foundlings being 
anywhere else about the city in your missionary labors ? A. 
Any foundlings in Chelsea? 
Q. Anywhere about the city, boarding out in Chelsea or 
elsewhere? A. I have known ; I don’t know now. 
Q. Have you known them? A. I have. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I want to ask you one question. You 
spoke about Iwman Place. Did you find her at Lyman Place? 
A. No ; I did not, 
Q. What street and number was it where you found her? 
A. I could not tell you the number of the street. 
Q. Near the State House? A. It was in the West End ; 
on what was called “ Negro Hill.” 
Q. “ Negro Hill?” A. Up on the high land. 
Q. Did she tell you what she was there for? A. She did 
not. 
Testimony of Alcina Thompson (sworn) 
Q. What is your full name? A. Alcina Thompson. 
Q. And where do you live? A. Iam in Boston for the 
present, and for two years past. 
Q. What is your address? A. Twenty-seven Yarmouth 
Street. 
Q. Did you ever know Mary Eva Bowen? A. I did. 
Q. When did you know her? A. She came to Dedham in 
1875. 
Q. At what institution, if any? What was tire name of the 
institution? A. Dedham Asylum for Discharged Female 
Prisoners. 
Q. What was your connection with that institution at that 
time? A. I was matron of the nursery department, — the 
mothers and the babies. 
Q. How long had you been matron of the nursery depart- 
ment? A. Do you mean before she came? 
Q. Before she came? A. I went there in January, — the 
sixth of January, the same year, 1875. 
Q. How long did you remain ? A. I was there between 
five and six years. 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1778 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Always in the same capacity? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you recollect what time in the year it was that Eva 
Bowen came to the institution, in 1875? A. She came there 
the last of April or the first of Ma}T. I think her child was four 
weeks old when she came; I am not certain ; it was either four 
or six, but I think four weeks. 
Q. Did she have the child with her? A. She did. Her 
father brought the child with her. 
Q. He came with her and brought the child with her, A. 
Yes, sir; came with her and brought the child with her. 
Q. How long did she remain there at that time ? A. She 
went to Tewksbury, — I am not quite certain, but I think it 
was in July. 
Q. You think she went to Tewksbury in July? A. July 
or August. 
Q. Well, from the time when she came there, the last of 
April or the first of May, whichever it wras, she remained there 
continuously till she went to Tewksbury? A. Yes. 
Gov. Butler. She had been to Tewksbury before that. 
Mr. Brown. No ; not before that. She had been in the Oak 
Place Home. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; the Oak Place Home. 
Mr. Brown. So }*ou do depend on me for accurate infor- 
mation. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; anything that everybody knows. 
Mr. Brown. Simply those things you forget. 
Q. Now, Miss Thompson, did she x-eturn again to Dedham, 
to vour institution, after she went to Tewksbury? A. She 
did. . 
Q. And when did she return? A. Sometime in Novem- 
ber ; the last of November. 
Q. Sometime in November of the same year? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. How long did she remain there at Dedham after she re- 
turned in November, 1875? A. I can’t tell; but not very 
long. 
Q. Not very long. Was she in your department after she 
returned? A. No, sir; she was not. 
Q. Who had charge of the department in which she was 
after her return? A. Miss Tolman. 
Q. Miss Tolman, the head matron. Was Eva Bowen sick 
at that institution at Dedham ? A. She was. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1779 
Q. What was the matter with her? A. She had S3Tphilis. 
Q. Did she have syphilis at the time she was at the institu- 
tion? A. She did. 
Q. Did her child have syphilis at the institution ? A. Not 
that I know of; but she had it after she went to Tewksbury. 
Q. Did you ever visit Tewksbury? A. I did. 
Gov. Butler. She had sj’philis after she went to Tewks- 
bury, — who? 
Mr. Brown. The child did. 
Gov. Butler. The child did ; yes. 
Q. When did you visit Tewksbury, if at all? A. I went 
to see Eva while she was there. I don’t know how long she 
had been there, but I went to see her, and then I went and 
brought her back to Dedham again. 
Q. After the death of her child, was that? A. Yes, sir ; I 
went the day after her child was buried to see her. 
Q. Did you have any conversation with Eva Bowen at the 
time you went to bring her back to Dedham, after the death of 
her child, in regard to the child ? A. I did. 
Q. State fully what it was. 
Gov. Butler. I object. She was not inquired of about the 
conversation. 
Mr. Brown. It was not necessary she should be. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon. That is the rule you an- 
nounced, early in this hearing, prevailed in the United States 
Court but didn’t prevail here. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, I know. It is not necessary to inquire 
whether it was had by a certain person, but the matter must be 
inquired about. 
Mr. Brown. Not at all. 
Gov. Butler. The difference is this — 
Mr. Brown. Very well; I will accept your proposition. I 
did inquire about it, and I propose to show by this witness, — 
this woman says her child was killed by the people at the insti- 
tution ; I propose to show that this woman stated to this witness 
that her child died of syphilis at the institution. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t see the difference between the two 
propositions, not a bit. You can kill a person by giving them 
syphilis as well as you can by giving them arsenic. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; but I shall show that Eva Bowen said 
the child took the disease from her. 1780 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. I can’t tell wliat you will show by this woman, 
but I will find out before you.get through. 
The Chairman. All in favor of admitting the question mani- 
fest it by raising their hands. 
Gov. Butler. We will have it; I know an antidote for it. 
Q. Now, did jTou have a conversation with Eva Bowen with 
regard to her child? A. I did. 
Q. I want you to tell the committee what it was ; all about 
it. 
Gov. Butler. Speak up loud, now, so we can all hear. 
A. Just the words that were said? 
Q. As near as you can the words, and where you can’t tell 
the words give us the substance. A. I will tell it just the 
same as I would if my own sister told me the things. 1 know I 
asked for the child, — I went there the day after the child was 
buried,—she said, “ Freddie is dead.” I asked her, -‘What 
was the matter with the little fellow?” she said, “He took my 
disease and died with it.” 
Q. Well, state fully what else she said. A. About the 
child? I think that was all she said about the child, — said he 
became very much emaciated and came out in sores all over. 
Q. Anything .else that you recollect? A. 1 don’t think of 
anything else ; yet there might be something else. 
Q. Did you have any conversation with her in regard to her 
treatment at Tewksbury ? A. Yes ; of herself and of her 
child. 
Q. Now, state fully what she said with regard to the manner 
in which she had been treated at Tewksbury ? A. She was in t he 
female hospital; I asked her if she had good care and treat- 
ment, and she told me she had. 1 asked her if the child was 
well cared for, and she said it was. She said Dr. Nellie Marsh 
treated her. I saw Nellie Marsh land talked with her. 
Q. Did you see Dr. Nellie Marsh at the time of that visit? 
A. I did. 
Q. Did you ever, at any time, while you had any relation 
with Eva Bowen, hear her speak of any bad treatment, or 
unkind treatment, or lack of proper treatment at Tewksbury, 
for herself and child? A. I never did. 
Q. Who was the physician at the institution at Dedham, 
when she was first there? A. Our asylum physician was Dr. 
— we changed physicians,— wait a moment and I can tell you, 
— Burgess, Dr. Burgess; he went to Europe and died. Then 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1781 
we had Dr. Southgate, afterwards, but when she was there we 
had Dr. Burgess from Dedham. 
Q. Was there any other physician except Dr. Burgess? A. 
There was a woman came out from the New England Hospital, 
and examined Eva, before she went to Tewksbury. 
Q. Do you know who she was? A. I think her name was 
Buckle, but I am not certain ; Dr. Buckle. 
(4. Do you know where she is now? A. I think she is 
abroad or West; I am not sure about that. 
Q. Did you ever hear of her in any other place except 
abroad or West ? A. She went somewhere I think. 
Q. Can you tell where she went? A. No; I cannot. 
Q. Let me ask you this question : Did she go to California, 
— San Francisco? A. 1 don’t know ; she went away; I could 
not tell you where she did go. 
(4 Now, when Eva Bowen was sick with syphilis before she 
went to Tewksbury, I want you to tell us how sick she was. 
Gov. Butler. Does she say she was sick before she went? 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
A. She was sick from the time she came to the home. 
Q. Did she have syphilis at the time she entered the Dedham 
home? A. She did ; and she told me the}' knew it at Oak 
Place. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Won’t you repeat that? A. She 
told me they knew she had it at Oak Place ; I asked her if they 
didn’t know it, and she said they did ; that the nurse knew it. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Did she say who the nurse was? A. 
She did not. 
Q. Was she very sick while she was there at the Dedham 
home ? A. She wasn’t sick in bed ; she used to go over to the 
sewing-room through the day and sew, and come home through 
the afternoons and lie down ; sometimes she would come over 
in the forenoons and lie down. 
Q. Was she nursing her child during that period? A. She 
was. 
Q. What was the matter with her after her return from 
Tewksbury, if anything? A. What do you mean ; her health? 
Q. Yes ; was her health good? A. Her health was better. 
Q. Was there any thing the matter with her ? A. Not that 
I know of; no. 
Q. Had she recovered from the syphilis? A. I suppose 1782 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
she had recovered from it as much as anybody ever does ; she 
was able to be about. 
Q. At work? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. No sores or anything of that kind to call it to your 
attention? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did she say anything special in regard to the treatment of 
that disease she had received at Tewksbury? A. She did not. 
Q. Do you recollect whether she said anything about 
recovering while she was at Tewksbury? A. I know when I 
went to visit her she wanted to go back with me to Dedham, 
and I told her if she was in a fit condition to go back I would 
take her back, but the managers didn’t wish her to come back 
till she was cured. 
Q. Did you make two visits to Tewksbury? A. 1 visited 
her and then brought her back. 
Q. When was the visit which you made at the time you went 
for her? A. As I said before, I can’t tell, but it was after 
she had been there awhile. 
Q. Did } ou go into the hospital where she was ? A. 1 did. 
Q. And see her? A. I did. 
Q. How lung did you remain with her? A. 1 think 1 
stayed with her over twro hours. 
Q. Two hours? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Were there other children in the same hospital, other 
women with children, do you recollect? A. This was not the 
children’s hospital; this was for the women, but I think there 
was a woman sick in bed who had one child with her, — a small 
child. 
Q. Do you recollect any others? A. No, sir; no other 
children. 
Q. Now, then, at that interview did you have any conversa- 
tion with Eva with regard to her treatment, care? A. Yes, 
sir; that is the time I asked her. 
Q. Then, take the second interview, the one in November ; 
did you have a conversation with her with regard to her treat- 
ment? A. No ; because I took her back with me ; I only went 
for her and took her back. 
Q. Just simply went for her. A. Yres; they wrote me 
they thought she was able to come back, and I went for her and 
brought her back to Dedham. 
Q. She was there at the institution at Dedham after she 
returned in November; she was there till what time, do you 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1783 
recollect? A. I don’t know how long she did stay ; she stayed 
till she went to the Consumptives’ Home. 
Q. You don't remember when that was? A. No, I don’t; 
but it is set down on the book at Dedham, all of it. 
Q. Do you know what was the reputation of Eva Bowen for 
truth and veracity? A. It is bad, I believe. . 
Q. You did know it? A. Yes. 
Q. What was it? A. For truth? 
Q. For truth and veracity. A. She was very untruthful 
in a great many things. 
Q. Was that her reputation? A. Yes, sir; it was. 
Q. Who did }’ou ever hear talk about it? A. I heard her 
father say so when he brought her; and Miss Tolman, the 
matron, said so, and another matron at Oak Place. 
Q. What was her name? A. Mrs. Stevens was the matron 
there then. 
Q. You heard her say so? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who else? A. I don’t know as I remember anybody 
else said so, unless there might be some inside the home found 
she didn’t tell the truth when talking with her ; I don’t know. 
Q. Where is your native place, madam? A. My native 
place is New Hampshire. 
Q. What town? Q. Pembroke, New Hampshire. 
Q. Pembroke? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When were you born? A. That isn’t necessary, is it? 
Mr. Brown. Perfectly proper. 
The Witness. I don’t wish to answer that question. 
Q. But you will; when were you born, madam? A. 1843. 
Q. When did you leave New Hampshire to come to Massa- 
chusetts? A. I have been in Massachusetts eight or ten,— 
yes, more than that; ten A*ears or more. 
Q. Did you come directly from New Hampshire to Massa- 
chusetts? A. I did. 
Q. Where did you go? A. I went to Lancaster, to the 
State Industrial School for Girls. I was matron there two 
years and a half, — about that time. 
Q. Matron at what? A. Lancaster State Industrial School 
for Girls at Lancaster. 
Q. Yes ; I know where it is. Matron there two and 
a half? A. About that time, I think. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1784 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And about what time did }’ou go there? A. Go 
where; Lancaster? 
Q. Yes. A. Well, I don’t remember the year. 
Q. About when? A. About ten or eleven years ago, I 
think. 
Q. That would be 1872 or 1873. A. T guess it must have 
been later than that; I don’t know ; I am not certain about it. 
Q. 1875 or 1876? A. It was not 1876, because I came 
away in 1875 and went to Dedham ; 1873 I guess it was. 
Q. Went to Dedham in 1875 ; what time in 1875? A. The 
sixth of January. 
Q. Sixth of January, 1875; and you had been two years 
and a half at Lancaster ; under jmur present name? A. What 
sav ? 
Q. Under the same name; the same name }Tou have now? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you were matron there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you ever been married? A. No, sir. 
Q. Not at that time nor since? A. What say? 
Q. Not at that time nor since? A. No, sir. 
Q. You had been there about two }’ears and a half before 
this? A. I think so. 
Q. And then you went to Dedham? A. lres. 
Q. And what were you at Dedham? A. I was the nur- 
sery matron. 
Q. What? A. The nursery matron ; had charge of the 
nursery ; the mothers and the babies. 
Q. Nursery matron ; you knew all about nursing and the 
food, nursing for children and all that, did you, when you went 
there? A. I never had charge of children as I had there, but 
I knew — 
Q. What? A. I never had charge of children in a nur- 
sery before. 
Q. Till you got there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, what sort of an institution is this at Dedham ; a 
State institution? A. No, sir ; private. 
Q. Private institution ; is it running now? A. Yes; sir. 
Q. Do they keep records? A. Yes. 
Q. Keep records of diseases of people that come there? A. 
When the}* come, if anything ails them, — they don’t keep sick 
people there anyway ; they send them away. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1785 
Q. Yes; but when they come there? A. Yes, sir; if they 
are sick. 
Q. When they come there with disease they keep a record 
of them? A. They don’t take anybody that is diseased ; they 
don’t intend to. 
Q. What? A. They don’t intend to take sick people if 
they know it. 
Q. But this lady was not a discharged convict from any- 
where, was she? A. I don’t know; she came from Oak Place 
there ; that is all I know about it. 
A. The}'don’t have convicts at Oak Place, do they ? A. T 
don’t know. 
Q. You don’t know? She came from Oak Place there, direct- 
ly, and her disease was perfectly plain to everybody ; they knew 
it at Oak Place, and you knew it as soon as you saw her? A. 
No, I didn’t say they knew it; I say Eva said so. 
• Q. They could know it as well as you? A. The doctor 
said so after she came [to Dedham; I didn’t say it; the doc- 
tor said so. 
Q. The doctor said so? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But you don’t say so? A. I think she had it, but I 
was not the one, of course, to say. 
Q. Do you know whether she had it or not, yourself, leaving 
out what the doctor said? A. I know it as well as I know any- 
thing. 
Q. As well as you know anything? A. The symptoms. 
Q. She had the ordinary breaking out? A. Her mouth was 
very sore ; for weeks she could not eat any solid food at all. 
Q. Sore for a week? A. For weeks. 
Q. How long had she been at Oak Place? A. I don’t 
know ; I couldn’t tell you anything about that. 
Q. Well, it was then in the shape of a sore mouth, and it 
was a week before she could eat any solid food. A. I said it 
was several weeks she had a sore mouth and could not eat. 
Q. Could not eat? A. No solid food. 
Q. Did you see any symptoms of it in the baby at that time, 
when she first came there? A. Nothing; only it was a very 
poor baby. 
Q. Very poor baby ? A. Unhealth}'looking child. 
Q. In poor health; yes. Did she nurse it all the time she 
was there? A. She did. 
Q. Now, do you mean to say, madam, that the doctors at 1786 
CHAEITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that institution permitted a syphilitic mother to nurse, — with 
sores breaking out all over her, more or less. — to nurse her 
child for weeks and months? A. I didn’t say that sores broke 
out over her; they broke out on the child after she went to 
Tewksbury; her mouth was sore. 
Q. Her mouth was sore ; yes. You knew she had a sore 
mouth, and you knew what the cause of it was ; and yet you, 
as matron, and the people in that institution, allowed that 
mother to nurse that child for months. How long was she 
there, about? A. She came there the first of May, or the last 
of April. 
Q. How long did she stay ? A. She stayed till she went to 
Tewksbury. 
Q. How long was that? A. I told the other gentleman it 
was in July* or August, but I could not tell certainly. 
G-ov. Butler. We will see. Won’t you look and see when 
Maiy Eva Bowen came to Tewksbury ? 
Q. Very well. Now, it was some months, at any rate, that 
she was there ; and she was allowed to nurse her child all the 
time, was she? A. She did, while she was there. 
Q. She did? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the child lived through it; and she took it to Tewks- 
buryr, did she? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you keep a record of people that go in? A. We do. 
Q. A proper record, as far as you know? A. Well, I 
don’t know what you call proper. When the mother came with 
the child we always put their name down, and where they were 
born, the mother’s and child’s. 
Q. It was your business to do that? A. Tn the nursery 
department it was. 
Q. What did you put down ? A. The mother’s name and 
the child’s name, and where it was born. 
Q. Have 3*011 seen that record lately7? A. No, sir. I have 
not been at Dedham. 
Q. Now, when she went away with the child; had she got 
cured before she went to Tewksbury with her child? A. No, 
sir; she was sent away by the managers. She was sent to 
Tewksbury byr the managers. Her father had nothing to do 
about her going to Tewksbury*. She was sent there by the 
managers. 
Q. Her father was paying her board, wasn’t he? A. No, 
sir; not a cent. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1787 
Q. What? A. Not a cent. 
Q. How came she from Oak Place to Dedham? A. Her 
father brought her to Dedham. 
Q. Brought her to Dedham ; A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And would not pay a cent for her? A. He would not 
pay her board. 
Q. Never paid for her board? A. No, sir. 
0- This was a private institution ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you expect people to pay their board if they are 
able? A. Yes; they work for their board. It is a sewing- 
room, laundry and kitchen. 
Q. I understand ; but an institution would not go a great 
while with people working for their board ? A. It would not 
if there were not a great many Christian ladies who support it 
by their means. 
Q. Now, madam, don’t you know that the name of Eva 
Bowen don’t appear on the books of that institution at all ? A. 
No, sir ; I don’t know anj'thiug about it. I know her name is 
there. 
Q. You know her name is there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You know that it is there? A. Yes, sir. I put it on 
the book myself. 
Q. What sort of a book was it? A. I don’t see any here 
like it. It was a little small square book. 
Q. [Exhibiting a book.] By a small square book you mean 
one like that, for instance? A. A cover like that, only not so 
large ; perhaps two-thirds as large. When the mothers and 
babies were sent over to the nursery I took their names. 
Q. You put the names on your book, and the disease, I sup- 
pose? A. No; there is no disease put down, because we 
didn’t know she had it until she had been there a long while. 
Q. How long? A. Until her mouth was seen to be sore. 
Q. How long after she got there before her mouth began to 
be sore? A. It was a good while before she told me about it. 
Q. About how long? A. I am sure I could not tell you, 
because I never supposed I should ever have to bring it up. 
Q. One month? A. Yes. I should think longer than 
that. 
Q. Two months? A. It might have been six weeks or two 
months. 
Q. Six weeks ? A. It might have been. I don’t say cer- 
tainly. 1788 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. It might not. A. After site had been there awhile. 
Q. After she had been there a considerable while. Then, 
when she came there, there were no signs of it? A. Not that 
I knew of. 
Q. Not that you knew of. When was the doctor called? 
A. After she told me she had sore mouth 1 sent to the 
managers and they came and examined her, and said she could 
not be admitted in any hospital in Boston, and that Tewksbury 
was' the only place she could go to. 
Q. And then she was sent to Tewksbury without the knowl- 
edge of her father, so far as jrou know? A. Without his send- 
ing her there. I think I wrote and told him that she had been 
sent to Tewksbury. 
Q. Did you go with her? A. I did not. 
Q. Who did? A. I think it was the sewing-room matron. 
Q. Who was she? A. I cannot remember now ; I am not 
there now. 
Q. Well, try and think. 
Mr. Chester. It is now one o’clock, and I would like to 
suggest that we adjourn now until to-morrow. 
The Chairman. I suppose it will take some time to finish 
the cross-examination, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. It will take a little time. I think there are 
some things to be asked about her life and conversation before 
we get through. 
Adjourned to meet on Tuesday, May 29, at 9.30 a.m. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1789 
FORT! FTH HEARING. 
Tuesday, Ma}* 29. 
The Committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. * 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler (resumed). 
Testimony of Aucina Thompson. 
Q. Miss Thompson, you went over with Mr. Sargent yes- 
terday to Dedham, to look after that book, did you? A. I 
did. 
Q. Did you find it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The book in which you made the entry? A. Not the 
one I made I he entry in. 
Q. Well, that is the one I was talking about. You didn’t 
find the one you made the entry in? A. No, sir; that book 
was from 1875 to 1877, and it was full, and the secretary took 
that book and gave me a new one, and it is from 1877 to 1879. 
The other I left at Dedham, the old book.' I don’t know what 
they did with it, and she don’t know. 
Q. The book was full from 1875 to 1877? A. Yes, sir. 
The book was there when I went there. 
Q. And 3tou put the name and all about Eva Bowen in that 
book, but the book cannot be found now? A. No, sir. 
Q. You left it there when 3rou went away? A. Yes, sir. 
This one I gave to the secretary, and she took it and carried it 
home, and she thought she carried it back again, but she could 
not remember. 
Q. I don’t ask what she thought, or anybody else. You left 
it with the officers of the asylum? A. Y"es, sir. 
Q. Very well. Stop there. And that cannot be found. 
Now the only other entry is found in the book I have summoned 
here. Is there any entry about Eva Bowen when she came into 
the asylum? A. There is. 
Q. Where is it? What book is that in? 
[A book was produced] 1790 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Is this book kept in your handwriting? A. It was 
copied from my book. 
Q. When was it copied ? A. After I left; I don’t know 
when. 
Q. Well, let us see. In whose handwriting is this? A. 
Miss Hannah Chickering, founder of the home; she is dead. 
Q. And you testify that this [referring to an entiy in the 
book] is copied from your entry? A. I think it is ; yes, sir. 
Q. You have read it? A. I have heard it read. 
Q. Do you know when this book was copied? A. No, sir ; 
1 don’t. 
Gov. Butler. Is Mrs. Whitney here? 
Mr. Innis. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Where are the books we summoned ? 
Mr. Innis. She will be here presently. 
Q. Now this was copied from your entry, was it? A. I 
suppose it was. 
Q. Weli, pardon me ; you had it read to you ? A. Yes, sir. 
This is not just as mine was put down, because I didn’t put 
mine down that way. 
Q. Pardon me: I don’t know how you put it down. You 
swore here yesterday that you made an entry, and now you have 
sworn that this is a copy of the entry. A. The lady told me 
it was copied, that is all I know. I didn’t see it copied. 
Q. But you know about it; you heard her read it. A. Yes, 
the lad}’ read it to me. It is not just as it was put down on my 
book. 
Q. Did she say she copied it? A. No, her aunt copied it. 
Q. Then you have got the lady saying what her aunt said? 
A. She is one of the managers of the Dedham Home, sir. 
Q. She may be anything in the world. Do }tou know any- 
thing about this entry in this book? A. I have told you all I 
know, and just what 1 know about it. 
Q. You heard it read. Is this a copy of the entry made by 
you? A. It is not my book. 
Q. I know it is not; that has disappeared. And this might 
have been made any day ; last night for aught 1 know ; I rather 
think it was. Now, then, is this a cop}’of the entry in your 
book? A. The lady told me — 
Q. Leave out what other people told you. A. I don’t 
know ; I didn’t see her copy it. 
Q. Pardon me ; you heard it read; did it read like the entry 1883.] 
HOUSE —No, 300. 
1791 
in your book? A. No, sir; I said that it didn’t. It was not 
put down. I will tell you just how mine was put down. 
Q. You told me yesterday, and I don’t want to know any 
more. I took care to get at it before I let you go yesterday. 
I didn’t mean it should be changed? A. If you don’t want to 
know any more about it that is all. 
Q. I was careful, very, to get it just as 3'ou put it. I can 
tell you just how you put it yesterday. You put it 3'esterday 
that when she came in made an entr}' as 3rou always did, in 
your book. Then this is not a copy of your entry, is it? A. 
I don’t know. 
A. And this is not an original book of anybody’s, that you 
know of? A. No, sir. 
Q. Ver3r good. Now did you see any other entry about Eva 
Bowen in am* other book? A. I did not. 
Q. Yesterday? A. I did not. 
Q. Did you look for one? A. I 011I3’ looked for the one I 
went for — m37 own. 
Q. Did 3Tou hear an3T read to you but this? A. I did not. 
Q. Mr. Sargent went out with 3*011, did he? A. He did. 
Q. Now, madam, about how long was it— told us it 
wa3 sometime 3’ou didn’t know how long — and the first you 
knew that an3’thing was the matter with Eva her mouth was 
sore. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Raw? A. I don’t knojv as it was raw; it was very 
much inflamed. She said it was canker. She came to me and 
told me she had canker in her mouth when she first complained 
of it. 
Q. She hadn’t complained of anything else, had she, up to 
that time? A. Not at the time ; no sir. 
Q. She told you it was canker. How long after did she call 
it, an3'thing else? A. When the doctor told her, I suppose. 
Q. Pardon me; leave out your suppositions. How long 
after did she call it anything else? A. When the doctor told 
her. 
Q. When the doctor told her. Was it then that she said 
she had it when she was at Oak Place? A. When she was 
talking with me about it she did ; I don’t know whether she told 
the doctor so or not. 
Q. Was it at that time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. After the doctor told her that she had it; and that doctor 
is dead, is she? A. No, sir ; she is in California, I think. 1792 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. A woman doctor? A. Yes, Dr. Buckle; from the 
New England Hospital. She was in the hospital, and she is 
now, if I understand. 
Q. When did she go to California? A. I could not tell 
you. 
Q. When did you hear of her last there? A. I don’t 
remember. I asked where she was and they said she was in 
California. 
Q. When did you ask? A. It was a long time ago ; 1 can- 
not remember the time. 
Q. Well, now, was Eva cured when she came back, what- 
ever the trouble was? A. She was very much improved. 
Q. Whether she was improved, I don’t ask. Was she cured? 
A. I cannot tell you whether she was cured or not. She was 
cured, I presume, as much as anybody is ever cured of that 
complaint. 
Q. As much as anybody is cured of that disease. No open, 
visible marks of it upon her were there? A. Not that I know 
of. 
Q. There was never any except this canker in the mouth? 
A. I never saw any. 
Q. Did you inquire of the people at the Oak Place Home, 
whether she had any disease when she left there? A. I didn’t. 
All I know about that is what Eva told me herself. 
Q. Eva told you, but you never inquired? You saw them 
afterwards? A. Why, yes, sir; I have seen them. 
Q. See them while Eva was at your place? A. No, sir; I 
don’t think I did while Eva was there. 
Q. Did you see them while she was at Tewksbury? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Ever ask them what they meant by sending a girl dis- 
eased to your place? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did anybody send to the father to have him take her 
away in that condition? A. No, sir ; her father didn’t send her 
away ; it was the managers who sent her away. 
Q. I understand ; but nobody sent for her father to take her 
away? A. Not that I know of. 
Q. But you do know that the father never paid anything 
while she was there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. WI13’ did the}T send and take her back again if she was in 
such a condition ? If she was in this condition, why did they 
send for her to Tewksbury? Why did they send for her? A. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1793 
She was told when she went that if she got cured or better that 
she should come back again. 
Q. And they not only let her come back but they sent you 
for her? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And who paid your expenses? A. The asylum. 
Q. The father? A. The asylum — the home. 
Q. The home paid your expenses? A. And paid hers ; yes, 
sir. 
Q. And the father was still not paying? Then you went up 
to see her once before? A. Yes. sir. 
Q. Who paid your expenses that time? A. The asylum. 
They always paid the expenses. 
Q. When you went up to see her they paid the expenses up 
there again? A. And back again. 
Q. Now how many times were you up there to see Eva? 
A. Onty twice. I went up once to see her, and once when I 
brought her back. 
Q. Who told }’ou to go up after Eva? A. Miss Hannah 
Chickering, one of the managers. She was the founder of the 
home. 
Q. Now, when she came back, and you went up there to 
get her, did Eva write down that she was well or better? A. 
Did she do what? 
Q. Did Eva write down? A. Write? 
Q. Yes. W-r-i-t-e? A. No, sir; the doctor sent word. 
Dr. Nellie Marsh sent word that she thought she would be able 
to come back again. 
Q. Dr. Nellie Marsh? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, was Dr. Nellie Mai’sh conversant with your insti- 
tution ? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Had she ever been there? A. I never had seen her 
there. 
Q. Dr. Nellie Marsh wrote that Eva had better come back, 
and you were sent up there? Her child was dead, then, when 
yon got there? A. The child was buried the day before I went 
to' visit her ; before I went to bring her back. It was when I 
made my visit. When 1 got there she told me that Freddie was 
buried the day before. 
Q. The day before ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is what she told us here. Now, how long did she 
stay with you the second time? A. She was not in my de- 
partment at all after she came back. 1794 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. I know. How long did she stay in the asylum? A. I 
could not tell 3Tou. 
Q. Who took her away? A. I could not tell you that, 
either. 
Q. Where was she carried to? A. To the Consumptives’ 
Home. 
Q. How do you know that? A. I know she told me she 
was going, and Miss Tolman told me she had gone, but I don’t 
know the time. 
Q. Did she go? A. Yes, sir ; she went there as assistant 
housekeeper. 
Q. Eva told you she was going, and Miss Tolman told you 
she had gone? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you seen her from that time? A. No, sir; I 
have never seen her since ; she didn’t come back again. 
Q. Now, I want you to tell me when it was and who it was, 
if anybody, that said her character for truth and veracity was 
bad. A. Her father told me so when he lirst brought her 
there. 
Q. When he first brought her he told you so? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Anybody else at that time? A. Miss Tolman, the 
headwoman that was there. She didn’t tell me at that time : 
but she hadn’t been there very long. 
Q. Did he tell you or somebody else? A. He told me. 
Q. Did you ask him or did he volunteer it? A. I didn’t 
ask him. 
Q. Had he ever seen you before? A. No, sir. 
Q. Where did he tell you ? A. He told me in the nursery. 
Q. When he came in to see her? A. When he brought her. 
Q. Did he bring her into the nursery? A. He did. 
Q. He brought her into the nursery. Anybody come with 
him? A. He took the child in his arms and she came in with 
him. 
Q. What did he first say when he got in? A. He said this 
was his daughter. If you will wait a moment I will get just the 
right words. 
Q. Y"es ; I will wait until you get just the right words. A. 
He said, “ Miss Thompson, here is my daughter Eva and her 
child.” 
Q. What next? A. “ My adopted daughter,” he said. 
Q. What next after “ here is Eva, my child? ” A. 1 don’t 
remember that he said anything else then. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1795 
Q. Pardon me; anything else in that conversation? A. 
While he was there? 
Q. Yes. A. Only how young she was. 
Q. IIow young did he say she was? A. Only her sixteenth 
year, he said. 
Q. Anything else? A. Well, he only spoke of feeling very 
badly’ on account of her conduct. 
Q. He said he felt very badly on account of her having a 
child, I suppose. A. On account of her conduct. 
Q. What next did he say — well, we will leave that right 
there. Did yrou ever see him again ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long afterwards ? A.' I could not tell you. 
Q. How many’ times ? A. I don’t know. He came three 
or four times, perhaps more. He visited her several times. 
Q. How often did he come? A. 1 could not tell you. 
Several times. 
Q. Tell me what was said at the next time he came. What 
did he first say? A. He inquired about her health, how she 
was, how she was getting along, whether she behaved. 
Q. He inquired about her health, how she was, how she was 
getting along, whether she behaved ; and you told him, I sup- 
pose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What eUe did he say at that time? A. He said if she 
needed any money, — he gave me, I think, two dollars to spend 
for her if she wanted anything. 
Q. Yes ; gave her some money to spend ; and that was the 
second time. Now the third time what was said? The same 
inquiries? A. He always inquired for her health. 
Q. Appear interested in her? A. Very’ much interested in 
her. 
Q. Anything more pass the second time that he came to see 
her? The first time he came to bring her ; the second time and 
the third time to visit her. You have told us he inquired for 
her health, how she was, how she was getting along, and how 
she behaved. Now, anything else? A. 1 cannot remember 
the times right along what he said. I-know he alway’s inquired 
for her health ; always asked about her. 
Q. Now, didn’t you swear yesterday that when he brought 
her there he told you she was untruthful? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You did? A. I have said so this morning. 
Q. You told me yesterday it was the first time he came there. 
Now, I have gone all over what he said and you left it out. Tell 1796 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
me where it came in, now, —in the conversation the first time? 
A. What do you mean? 
Q. When he said that her character for truth and veracity 
was bad. A. Why, when he first came there and was talking 
to me about it, and told me of the trouble. 
Q. Pardon me ; J want you to put it in as he said it. Here 
was a father, very much interested in his child, leaving her with 
an entire stranger, and, b}T way of recommendation, he volun- 
teers that her character for truth is bad. 1 want to know 
howr he got that in. That is what bothers me. Feeling 
very badly about his child, taking very great care of her, 
and trying to do everything for her, the first thing, he goes to an 
entire stranger and says : Here is my child ; her character for 
truth is very bad. How did he bring it in ? I have had great 
experience in this world, but I never heard anything of the sort. 
I should like to know how he did it. When you went over the 
conversation you left it out. A. 1 left out a good many things. 
When 3’ou put a question I answered it. 
Q. I asked you to tell me what he said, and you said he said, 
“ Here is Eva, my child, my adopted child ; I feel very bad 
about what has happened to her, and I want her to have every 
care.” Then I waited and you added no more, and then I went 
on to the second time. A. Yes ; I think 1 can tell jtou now. 
He said he was very fond of her ; she was disobedient, she was 
untruthful, but he was very much attached to her, and he wanted 
to do everything he could to save her ; he could not keep her 
at home because she would not stay in the house. 
Q. She had been very bad. Now, he said she was untruth- 
ful ; he could not keep her at home because she would not stay 
in the house. What else did he volunteer about his daughter? 
A. I could not remember anything else. 
Q. You are sure he put in that she was untruthful? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Was that it? A. He said, I am sorry to say that she 
is not always truthful. 
Q. Well, that is the way in which he commenced : Here is 
Eva, my adopted daughter, and I feel very sad about what has 
happened to her. She is not always truthful, she won’t stay in 
the house, and I want to do everything 1 can to save her.” And 
this to you, a perfect stranger, who was going to have the care 
of her. Now, honestly, Miss Thompson, if anybody else told 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1797 
such a story as that would you believe it yourself? A. Yes, 
sir ; because they often said so if they were not truthful. 
Q. You would believe it because people going there before, 
fathers sending their children, had been there to give them that 
sort of a character to the matron? A. Of course we wanted 
to know what sort of persons they were. 
Q. How so? A. So as to know how to take care of them. 
Q. Pardon me ; but you were not expected to give them les- 
sons in truth and veracity? A. We were. It is a reforma- 
tory home. 
Q. Precisely. Now, then, let us see if you did your duty. 
Give me an account of the first lesson you gave Eva in truth 
and veracity. How did you begin? A. It was part of the 
teaching ; I don’t say that in particular. 
Q. Oh, but this was one of the worst cases ; why not in par- 
ticular? A. We always gave them the best advice we were 
capable of. 
Q. I have not asked you that, either. I want to know your 
first lesson that you administered to Eva Bowen in truth and 
veracity. Did you ever give her any?—Well, we will pass 
from that. Now, when did you first tell this story to anybody 
that you have been telling here on the stand? A. I never 
told it to anybody. 
Q. Sure? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Nor any part of it? A. I may have answered one or 
two questions. 
Q. You may have? A. Yes ; I have answered one or two 
questions. 
Q. Who questioned you first? You first say }rou never an- 
swered anybody? A. Well, you said the stor}r, and then you 
said or a part of it, and I said yes, I had answered some ques- 
tions. 
Q. Then I want to know how much you have added since. 
Who asked you questions first? A. Mr. Sargent asked me 
if I was acquainted with Eva Bowen, and I said I was. 
Q. Mr. Sargent. When? A. I cannot tell you how long 
ago ; it was when I was matron at the Trinity House laundry, 
three, four, or six weeks ago. 
Q. Since this investigation commenced? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Since she was on the stand. Did he ever know - you be- 
fore? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you know him? A. No, sir. 1798 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Then Sargent came in and asked you if you knew Eva 
Bowen? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you said yes. What next? A. I don’t remember 
anything else, except he said I should be called as a witness. 
Q. If you knew Eva Bowen you would be called on for a 
witness? A. Yes; lie presumed I would. 
Q. How soon did Sargent visit you again? A. He didn’t 
visit me again. 
Q. Did he ever see you again until yesterday? A. I have 
seen him here in the room. 
Q. Did he ever speak to you? A. I have spoken to him, 
and said good-morning. 
Q. Anything more than to say good-morning? A. I don’t 
remember. 
Q. Well, you remember so well what Eva said, and what 
her father said some eight years ago— A. It was because I 
had the care of her. 
Q. — That you ought to remember this three or four weeks 
ago. Now, didn’t you tell anybody else anything more? Why 
should you be more communicative to anybody else than you 
were to Sargent, and tell anybody else the story you had to 
tell about Eva? A. I have told nobody about it only the ma- 
tron that used to be there. She and I knew- about it. 
Q. Anybody else? A. She is not matron now, she w7as at 
that time. 
Q. Matron where? A. At Dedham. 
Q. Where did you find her? A. She boarded right oppo- 
site where I was. 
Q. And you went over and talked with her about it. Did 
you tell Sargent about her? A. No, sir. 
Q. Where he could find her? A. I don’t know7 where he 
found her. 
Q. Did you tell him w'here he could find her? A. No, 
sir ; he didn’t ask me. 
Q. He asked you if you knew Eva Bowen, and he said 
that you might be called as a witness, and away he went, and 
you never told him any more, and you never told anybody else 
anything about your story but the matron ; and you didn’t have 
to tell her, because she knew as much as 3*011 did, and it was 
very natural for you to speak about it. You didn’t have to tell 
her anything? A. No, sir ; I didn’t tell her anything. She 
knew more than I did about it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1799 
Q. What is her name? A. Tolman. 
Q. Mrs. Tolman? A. Miss Tolman. 
Q. And you have never told anybody else until you got on 
the stand? A. Not to sit down and tell this story I am tell- 
ing now. 
Q. Any portion of it? A. Nothing more than the matron 
talking it over with me. 
Q. Except the matron and Mr. Sargent, and you did not 
tell him anything except that you knew Eva Bowen. Did he 
ask you any other questions? A. I don’t remember that he 
did; no, sir. 
Q. A pretty poor detective, if that is the way he did his 
work. Now, how do you suppose Mr. Brown found out so as 
to ask you questions about every single transaction that 3*011 
put in about Eva Bowen ; of course 3*011 never told him ? A. 
That he has asked me? * 
Q. He has asked you, and was able to ask 3*011, about eveiy 
transaction that 3*011 knew about Eva Bowen, even the question 
of truth and veracity. How did he know that so as to ask you? 
A. I cannot tell. 
Q. You cannot tell? You never told him? A. He asked 
me one da3* in the hall if I knew her — here in this room, when 
I came in one da3*. 
Q. When who came in? A. When I came in. 
Q. How did he come to think to ask 3Tou a question an3T 
more than anybody else ; did Sargent introduce 3*011 to him ? A. 
Yes, sir; Mr. Sargent. 
Q. And 3rou told him, didn’t you? A. I told him I knew 
Eva Bowen. 
Q. Did you tell him anything more ? I would just as lief 
you would state what 3*011 have denied. You denied telling 
an3rbod3f. Brown is somebody? A. That stoiy before. 
Q. An3: part of the story. What did 3*011 tell him? A. I 
didn't tell him anything. He asked me if Eva had the syphilis, 
and I said she did, and he said he would have to call me as a 
witness. I don’t remember as there was another word said. 
Q. Nothing else said? A. I don’t remember as there was. 
Q. Anything said about truth and veracity then? A. I 
don’t remember that there was. 
Q. Anything said between you and Miss Tolman about 
truth and veracit3*? A. Miss Tolman came here and heard. 
Q. Leave out her coming here ; I am simply asking you if 1800 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr- 
there was anything said between you and Miss Tolman? A. 
Yes, sir; she read Eva’s testimony and she said it was all 
false. That is what was said about it. 
Q She said it was all false? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then she knew all about it? A. She read it in the 
paper. 
Q. She knew it was all falsehood. How did she know that? 
It was not false that Eva had a child? A. I don’t mean that; 
I mean her dying. 
Q. What did she say ? A. About whether her father tried 
to kill her. 
Q. Pardon me ; I want to know if she said the statement 
that Eva had a child at Oak Place was all false. That was in 
the paper. I didn’t ask about the medicine. — Was anything 
said then about your testifying?—Who first told you, or inti- 
mated that you would be asked about Eva’s truth and veracity? 
A. Who first? 
Q. Yes. A. Who first asked me about testifying? 
Q. Who first told you that you would be called to testif}' to 
Eva’s truth and veracity? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Don’t you remember anybody ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Not even Miss Tolman asked you about that? A. I 
said that Miss Tolman and I talked it over. 
Q. Talked what over ? A. Her untruthfulness. 
Q. That is, because she swore to such a story, she was un- 
truthful? A. I told you before that w*hen she first came to 
Dedham her father said she was untruthful. 
Q. Now, didn’t you read in the same paper, — you said it 
was all false, that Miss Tolman said it was all false, meaning 
that it was false when she said she had not disease? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Didn’t you read in the same paper that the nurse at 
Dedham who knew her well, and the doctor at Oak Place who 
examined her there before coming to your concern, said that she 
hadn’t it? A. No, sir; I didn’t. 
Q. You didn’t read that part of it? A. No, sir. I read 
the paper; only took it up to see that she had testified. 
Q. All you knew was that she had testified ? But Miss Tol- 
man had read the rest, so that she knew it was not all false? 
A. I suppose she had. 
Q. Where arc you stopping now, madam? A. At 27 
Yarmouth Street. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1801 
Q. What do you do there ? A. I am not engaged in any 
business. 
Q. How long have you been about there? A I have been 
there part of this winter. 
Q. How large a part? A. 1 have supplied at the Tempo- 
rary Home, on Pleasant Street. 
Q. How much have you been at this place ? A. I cannot 
tell 3*011 how long. 
Q. About four months? A. No ; not as long as that. 
Q. Just about that, is it not? A. No, sir. 
Q. Where did you come from last ? A. I had a room on 
Appleton Street through the winter. 
Q. Had a room on Appleton Street? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Whose house ; what number? A. I cannot tell you the 
number. 
Q. Well, who keeps the house? A. Well, it is Mr. 
Pitcher ; he and liis wife, and her mother. They are dress- 
makers. I was recommended to go there. 
Q. Leave out your recommendation to go there; I only 
want to find out where the house is. And you took in sewing 
there? A. I did not do any sewing there. They are dress- 
makers. 
Q. All right; you didn’t do any sewing there. What did 
3*011 do? A. I was not doing anything while I was there. 
Q. How long were 3*011 there? A. I went there when I 
came back from Dedham. 
Q. When was that? A. I supplied in Dedham three 
months for the laundiy matron, and I came back the first of 
September. 
Q. And this was a temporary going back to supply? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. For three months 3*ou went back into the laundry? A. 
Yes. 
Q. And was laundr3* matron. You were the matron who 
washed the clothes? A. No, sir; the matron is the one who 
has charge of' the work. 
Q. Don’t do any work 3Tourself? A. Sees that the work is 
done. 
Q. Sees that the inmates do the work? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then, whenever we talk about the laundty* matron, we 
mean one who does not wash or iron clothes ; what does she 
do? A. She takes the desk, and keeps an account of the 1802 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
clothes, marking them, sending them out, putting them out, and 
seeing they are washed and ironed properly. 
Q. You were there three months, supplying this woman’s 
plaee while she was gone? A. She had left. 
Q. How long did the}r keep you ? A. They wanted me to 
stay right along, but I didn’t wish to. 
Q. Where did you work before that? A. I went out be- 
fore that. Last spring I supplied at the Temporary Home, on 
Pleasant Street. 
Q. How long were you employed there? A. I was there 
two weeks. 
Q. Where were you employed before that? A. I was not 
employed before that. 
Q. What did you do ; live on your income, or how? A. I 
was in my room, and I was resting. 
Q. What were you resting for? A. Because I was tired. 
Q. Tired of what? A. Work. 
Q. Where did you work before that? A. Well, if you will 
let me go back and tell 3-011 the whole thing, I can. 
Q. Pardon me ; I am running you right back. A. Before 
I went to Dedham, — after I left Dedham, I went to Norwich, 
Conn., and was in the Children’s Home there three months. 
Q. When did you leave Dedham? A. I left Dedham in 
1879. 
Q. That is four years ago. And you worked three months 
at the students’ home, or some sort of a home, and then you 
rested nine months? A. The Children’s Home, at Norwich ; I 
was three months there. 
Q. Where else have you been? A. I supplied at the 
Refuge three months, while the matron was on a vacation. 
Q. Where else? A. At the Dedham Temporary Home 
three months. 
Q. That is nine months? A. Three weeks at the Tem- 
porary Home for Working Women, on Pleasant Street, at one 
time. 
Q. That is nine months and three weeks? A. And two 
weeks again, this spring, I have supplied at the laundry. 
Q. That is nine months and live weeks and a day. A. I 
supplied twice at the Trinity House laundry, two weeks at a 
time. 
Q. And you worked two weeks at a time, or three? A. 
Two ; while the matron was away. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1803 
Q. Twice at what laundry? A. Trinity House Laundry, 
Burroughs Place. 
Q. That is four ; that makes nine weeks? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well; we have got nine months and nine weeks out 
of four years ; and then you rested from your labor? A. Be- 
tween those times ; yes, sir. 
Q. That is, you go to work a fortnight, and then you have 
to rest how long? A. Until they wanted me to come to some 
other place. 
Q. Well, you seem to have had no very steady employment. 
Somehow, for some reason, you have been almost ever}7where, 
doing washwoman’s work pretty much of the time. Why did 
you get out so often? A. I could have had one or two of those 
places. They wanted me to stay at the place in Connecticut. 
Q. And you wouldn’t? A. No, sir; I didn’t want to stay. 
Q. They wanted you to stay at Dedham ? A. The work 
was too hard. They told me they would give me an assistant 
if I would stay. They said I should have the position there if 
I wanted it, but it was not my kind of work, not the work which 
I wanted to do. 
Q. Now, have you ever refused a chance to go to work when 
you have had one, for the last four years : and, if so, why? A. 
Because I didn’t wish to take the place. 
Q. Have you ever refused to go to work on supply? A. I 
have supplied at these places. 
Q. Have you ever refused to take a place ? A. Permanent 
situation, do you mean? 
Q. Any place. A. I never refused to take a permanent 
situation. 
Q. Never have. Didn’t they want you, permanently, at 
Dedham? A. I told you they wanted me to stay, but I didn’t 
wish to. 
Q. And you refused. And you refused to stay at Norwich? 
A. I was never at Lawrence. 
Q. At Norwich. A. At Norwich ; yes, sir. 
Q. Then you go out and stay two weeks and three weeks, 
and then you go back to rest at your home. Now, madam, you 
were also at Lancaster? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you want to stay there? A. Yes, sir; I wanted to 
stay there. 
Q. And they didn’t want you? A. Yes, sir; they did. 
Q. You wanted to stay, and they wanted you to? A. They 1804 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
wanted me to come to the Dedham home, and they wrote to me 
three times to go there ; and, finally, when there were to be some 
changes at Lancaster, a new superintendent and new assistants, 
I came to Dedham. 
Q. How much pay did you get at Dedham? A. Two hun- 
dred and fifty dollars. 
Q. A year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How much at Lancaster ? A. Two hundred and seVenty- 
five. 
Q. Had you ever been to Dedham before you went thei'e to 
work? A. Had I what? 
Q. Ever been to Dedham before you went there to work? A. 
I went there once to see Miss Tolnmn. She left Lancaster and 
went to Dedham. 
Q. And they wanted you at Lancaster, and they would give 
you two hundred and seventy-five dollars, and you wanted to go 
to Dedham so much that you went for two hundred and fifty 
dollars? A. No, sir; it was not that. They wanted me to 
come. 
Q. They wanted you to come, and you didn’t want to come ; 
but you went when they wanted yTou at Lancaster. They had 
plenty of young girls at Lancaster, didn’t they, to take care of? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you were to take care of y7oung girls there ? A. I 
had charge of the kitchen and tin; domestic department — kitchen 
matron. 
Q. Sweeping? A. The kitchen department; all the domes- 
tic work. 
Q. Yes ; all kinds of domestic work. I would like you to 
tell me whether at any time, or anywhere, you saw any indica- 
tion,— take it all around, anywhere,— of this disease, except 
this sore mouth. A. I didn’t see any. 
Q. You didn’t? A. No, sir. 
Q. You don’t know what other people saw7? Very well. 
And this child never knew that she had syphilis until after you 
or the doctor told her? A. She didn’t know what the matter 
was. 
Q. Of course she didn’t; the poor child didn’t know7 what 
it w7as. Did you ever see any other case? A. No, sir; only7 
as a child might have it sometimes at the home. 
Q. They would have sore eyes? A. They7 would have sore 
heads and sore eyes. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1805 
Q. But Eva didn’t have either sore head or sore eyes, you told 
us ; but she had sore mouth, which she called canker. Well, that is 
all. Hold on a moment. Here is a book. [Producing a book.] 
Now, do you know about this book? This seems to be a regis- 
ter. Did you ever see that book before? A. Let me take it, 
please. [Book handed to witness.] It is not my book, 
It looks like Miss Tolman’s handwriting. 
Q. Well, did you ever see this book before? This looks very 
like the description of a book you gave us. A. If you will let 
me look at it again. [Receiving the book.] 
Q. Look everywhere except where I have turned down the 
leaves. You need not look there. You see I am up to that* 
Any of your handwriting in that book? A. No, sir ; I don’t 
see any of my writing here. 
Q. Do you see an}’ of your writing? A. No, sir. 
Q. All Miss Tolman’s writing? A. It is not all; there 
is one thing there I don’t know whose it is. That very 
coarse writing is Miss Tolman’s, I should judge. 
Q. The coarse is Miss Tolman’s? A. I should judge so. 
Q. Is Miss Tolman here? A. In the house? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. She is not sick, is she? A. She is out of health. 
Gov. Butler. I supposed she might be. I am sorry. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. You spoke of Mrs. Stevens, who was connected with the 
Oak Place Home. Do you know where she is? A. She is in 
the Old Ladies’ Home on Revere Street. She has had three or 
four shocks of paralysis. 
Q. I was going to ask you. Is she able to go out? A. 
No, sir; she is not. She can only raise herself in her chair. 
Gov. Butler. Who is it? Mrs. Stevens who used to be 
connected with the Oak Place Home ? 
The Witness. She is paralyzed and can simply raise herself 
in her chair. 
Gov. Butler. I understand they are all dead or in Califor- 
nia who know about it now, —or paralyzed. 
Q. Now, about Miss Tolman ; do you know what her ad- 
dress is? Do you know where she lives? A. She is going 
out of the city to-day. 
Q. What is her address in the city ? A. No. 13 Burroughs 
Place — I mean No. 14 Burroughs Place. 1806 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Where has she gone? A. She 
is going out of town. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency asked where. 
The Witness. I don’t know ; she is going out of town. 
Gov. Butler. I thought }*ou said she was going awa}’. 
The Witness. Yes, sir ; but I thought you asked me where. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, His Excellency asked you in 
regard to the conversation which }’ou had with Mr. Bowen when 
he brought his child to the home at Dedham. 
Gov. Butler. So did you. 
Q. I want to know if 3*ou stated all the conversation that 
took place with Mr. Bowen. 
Gov. Butler. I submit the rule is that when a conversation 
is asked about, the party who asks about it must go as far as 
chooses, and then the other party cross-examines, and that is 
the end. 
The Chairman. I think that is the rule. 
Mr. Brown. I have no doubt it is the rule, and I have not 
offended it yet. What I did ask this woman was who ever said 
to her that Eva Bowen was an untruthful person, and she said 
her father on the occasion of his first coming to Dedham ; and 
there I stopped. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; and that is enough. 
Mr. Brown. That is all I said, and for no purpose except to 
show that this girl’s reputation is bad. Now, His Excellency 
has gone into the conversation which took place at that time; 
gone all into it, except he has been careful that this witness 
should not say one thing, and that is what the father told her 
about Eva Bowen’s life. Now, if the committee will permit this 
witness to state fully what, if anything, he said otherwise, what 
the father said about Eva Bowen’s life, I should be pleased to 
hear it; I think it might throw some light upon the matter. 
Gov. Butler. To that I answer, that that statement is 
exactly not the fact. I asked her to state what he first said, 
what he next said, and what he did say, clear down, and waited 
a long time, and asked if there was anything more. And so 
far from not permitting her to say one word about her life, she 
did say that the father said it had been very bad, that she would 
not stay in the house, and he could not keep her at home. 
Don’t you remember that? And then for Mr. Brown to get up 
here and say I would not let her say one word about wdiat her 
past life has been, is exceedingly out of place. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1807 
Mr. Brown. Well, if you will look at the record, you will 
see that I didn’t sa}* any such thing. T thought it would be a 
benefit to you. 
Gov. Butler. Well, you heard just what has been said, you 
know. There won’t be any benefit from it. For when I do 
hear — sometimes I do not — when I do hear, I don’t forget it 
in five minutes, when 1 want to make an argument upon it. 
There is not a man of your committee that don’t know that I 
asked this woman, and was careful to go over it. The}' did put 
in at first, that her father said she was untruthful. I could 
have objected to that, but it was so monstrous a statement that 
I did not. Because, all he could have asked was, what was her 
character for truth. I can go into who said so, but they 
could not. But after the exhibition of tears, the church, 
the Sunday school, the falling dead with the prodigal son 
on his lips, it was so monstrous a statement, that he went 
around advertising his own child as a liar, that I thought I 
should like to hear what sort of a father he was ; and, therefore, 
I allowed it to be put. Then, this morning, I asked this wit- 
ness to state. She had sworn, yesterday, that it was when he 
brought her there. Then, it came to me that it was still more 
improbable that a loving father, who could never speak of his 
child without tears in his eyes, should have, to a perfect 
stranger, an underling in one of these dens — could have so 
stated, that I thought I would see what the woman would say 
about it. Then she said what she did say. Very good. The 
next thing that happened was this : that she went all over it, 
and left that out entirely. I then took her over the thing again, 
and than she put it in, and she put in a great deal more, to wit, 
that he said she had been a very bad character, she would not 
stay at home, he could do nothing with her, and she had been 
disobedient. And then she left out untruthful, and I called her 
attention to it again, and she put it in, and altered it by saying 
that he was sorry to say that she would not always tell the 
truth. Well, now, then, the proposition is put to you, that you 
should let things into this conversation, because I didn’t allow 
her to say one word about what the father said in regard to the 
daughter’s habits of life. And I have been a little careful about 
this, because I want to explode this method of statement if I 
can. 
The Chairman. Do you claim, Mr. Brown, that you have 1808 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the right to go into this by reason of something the governor has 
brought out on cross-examination? 
Mr. Brown. I claim this, may it please the committee : I 
may have departed from the usual custom in asking this witness, 
on direct examination, as to who had told her that this girl’s 
reputation — or, at least, that she was an untruthful child. That 
I will, perhaps, admit. But now, what she said in regard to 
Dedham was a mere incident. She said that the father had 
told her that this child was untruthful, and she added, when he 
brought her to Dedham. That was a mere incident; it was the 
mere occasion. You can see that I didn’t go into the occasion 
at all. Now, I didn’t say, and the record won’t show that I 
said, that I didn’t ask her a word about it; nothing of that kind. 
Nor do I charge His Excellency with having excluded the entire 
conversation ; and when he says that, he states that which is 
not correct. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I have not said that; that is the 
trouble. 
Mr. Brown. What I did say was this, and I repeat it, and I 
think reference to the record will corroborate what I say, that 
His Excellency in cross-examining this witness, when she came 
to what Mr. Bowen told her in regard to the previous life of his 
child, did not exhaust her upon that subject. He did not ask 
her if he said anything else to her about her past life ; nothing 
of the kind. He contented himself with having asked her what 
Mr. Bowen said, and then when he saw that she was repeating 
what Mr. Bowen said to her, he evidently didn’t want any more 
of it and stopped. Now, I want the rest, if there is any more, 
I don’t know as there is. If there is any more, I want it. And 
that is precisely how I understand the position of this question. 
I am entitled to the whole conversation, if there is anything 
left. 
Gov. Butler. I want to ask the committee if I am to be 
closed upon every time this wav. 
Mr. Brown. You can always have the close if you want it. 
Gov. Butler. I beg your pardon ; I don’t want it. 
Mr. Brown. Then what are you talking about it for. 
Gov. Butler. Because I don’t want to be cheated out of it 
every time. 
Mr. Brown. You never will be, because I will always give 
it to you. 
Gov. Butler. Let us come to an understanding. There is 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1809 
a rule established here, and it was established rightly, and it has 
been rightly exercised against me, that there is to be one argu- 
ment ; otherwise we never shall get through. I can close after 
my brother Brown gets through, but I don’t want to, because I 
don’t want to take up the time. I want the rule observed. It 
is of no use for me to say that I am closing upon a man — for 
certainly I can do it afterwards — because if he gets up and 
closes upon me I can close on him, and so on ad infinitum. 
That is not the way to do business. 
The Chairman. In this case I understood Mr. Brown asked 
the question to which you object. 
Gov. Butler. I do. 
The Chairman. Then it was for him, under the rule, to show 
it is competent, and then for you to reply and for him to close. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I am the objecting party ; I am to sus- 
tain my objection and to show whether the objection ought to 
be sustained. 
The Chairman. I think the party asking the question ought 
to show its competency. Now, let us see what the question is, 
Mr. Brown. 
Gov. Butler. If the chairman will observe, the rule has 
been exactly the other way all the time. 
Mr. Murphy. I so understand it. 
The Chairman. I understand the party offering the question 
is to show its competency. 
Mr. Murphy. All I know is that His Excellency has always 
closed on every question that has come before the committee. 
The Chairman. That is more liberty than the governor 
claims himself. 
Mr. Murphy. He has always closed on questions of this 
kind.- 
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Brown, let us have the question. 
Mr. Brown. I want to know whether she gave to His Ex- 
cellency-on cross-examination all the conversation which this 
witness had with Mr. Bowen at any of his interviews at 
Dedham. 
The Chairman. I will put the question to the committee. 
[The question was ruled out by a vote of three to five.] 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I want to ask you in whose hand- 
writing this entry on page 304 is, in regard to Eva Bowen ? 
Gov. Butler. If she knows. 1810 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. Miss Hannah Chickering’s ; and this is Mrs. 
Dexter’s. 
Q. Is Miss Chickering here? A. .She is dead. 
Q. She kept that before she died. Then, this other lady, 
you say is, — A. Mrs. Charles Dexter. 
Q. Is she here? A. I presume not, because she would not 
be very likely to be here. 
Q. Well, see if 3’ou can see her? A. [Inspecting the 
audience.] No, sir. 
Q. You refer, when you speak of Mrs. Dexter, to the entry 
of July 28th? A. In regard to the child ; yes, sir. 
Q. Now, who was Mrs. Dexter? A. Mrs. Charles Dex- 
ter, she lives on Newbury Street, and she is secretary of the 
home. 
Q. How long has Miss Chickering been dead ? A. I could 
not tell you exactly, but she died before I left there. 
Q. She died prior to 1879 ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that if that is her handwriting it was not made last 
night, but it must have been made prior to 1879? Is that cor- 
rect? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. If that is her handwriting. We will find out 
about it. We will find out how she knows her handwriting. 
Re-cross examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Have von seen her write? A. I never saw her write. 
Q. You never saw her write? A. No. sir. 
Q. Are you sure about that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, haven’t you seen her write? A. Seen Miss Han- 
nah Chickering write? No, sir; T have seen little notes that 1 
have received from her. 
Q. But you never saw her write and you haven’t got‘any of 
those notes now? A. No, sir: they would be only little notes 
or memorandum which I would not keep. 
Q. Then you don’t know her handwriting any better than 
anjdtody else in the room? A. Yes, sir: T think I do. 
Q.- But you have no means of knowing it from having seen 
her write? A. No, sir. 
Q. You have sworn that one book was a copy? A. I said 
it was. A lady said it was. Her niece told me the lady copied 
it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1811 
Testimony of Elizabeth McKinnon (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q- What is your full name? A. Elizabeth McKinnon. 
Q. And you are one of the attendants at Tewksbur3T ? A. 
Yes, sir; I am one of the nurses there. 
Q. How long have you been there ? A. Since the eighth 
of August, 1876. 
Q. And you are there at the present time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you been there continuously since you first went 
there? A. Yes, sir; except two weeks’vacation. 
Q. In each year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When you first went to Tewksbury what did you do? 
A. I went there as nurse in the hospital. 
Q. What hospital? A. The woman’s hospital. I was 
there three weeks as assistant nurse and after that I had chai’ge. 
Q. Now, did you have a sister there at any time? A. Yes, 
sir; I have got three sisters who have been there. 
Q. Now, give us the names of each of your sisters who 
have been there in Tewksbury? A. My sister Sarah was 
there before I went there. 
Q. Now, your other two sisters? A. The next one was 
Mary and the next one Rina — Alexandrina. 
Q. Can you tell us about when Sarah went there ? A. I 
don’t remember what 37ear she went there, but I think she was 
there about two years. I don’t remember just how long she 
stayed there. She left before I went there. 
Q. When did Mary go there? A. Mary went there the 
first of August, the same year I did. 
Q. You went the eighth and she went the first? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What year? A. 1876. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, the other sister; when did she 
go there? A. I think it was two years after Mary went there. 
When Mary left she took her place. 
Q. When was that, about as near as you can tell? A. I 
think it was about four years ago. 
Q. So that there has never been but two of you there at one 
time ? A. That is all. 
Q. First was your sister Sarah? A. She was there alone. 1812 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Then yourself and your sister Mary? A. There to- 
gether. 
Q. She commenced the first of August, 1876, and you com- 
menced the eighth of August, 1876. Then your sister Mary 
left and your other sister took her place? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Is she there up to the present time? A. No, sir; she 
left two years ago. 
Q. And you have been there alone now for two years? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, were you ever in the insane department? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Was either of your sisters in the insane department? 
A. My sister Mary was there for a short time; I don’t think 
it was more • than a week; I don’t remember just how many 
days. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Frank Barker and his wife? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Dudley and his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you know Mr. French and his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Mr. Emmons French? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the other Mr. French? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What is his name? A. Lemuel French. 
Q. Lemuel French and his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Is he connected with the institution? A. No, sir. 
Q. When did he leave? A. Well, two or three weeks ago. 
Q. Did you sit at the same table with Mr. Barker and his 
wife and Mr. Dudley and his wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. During any time when you and they were at the hospital, 
or at any7 time since you met them, did you ever hear them say7 
anything about any act of cruelty having been committed in 
the institution? A. No, sir; I don’t think I ever did. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t hear. 
The Witness. I don’t remember of having heard anything 
of that kind. 
Q. Did you ever hear any of them say, during any time 
while they7 were connected with the institution or since, that any 
man in the insane department had been kicked by Mr. French, 
or bruised? A. No, sir; I never heard it until it has come out 
here lately in the paper's. 
Q. In this investigation? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear either of these four persons at any 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1813 
time make any remark in regard to insufficiency of bathing ap- 
paratus in the insane department? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Barker — 
Gov. Butler What does this contradict? 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Barker says that he washed eighty-four 
people in one pool, and there were no individual bath-tubs, and 
he complained that there was not sufficient apparatus there. 
Gov. Butler. At the table? Did he say he complained at 
the table? 
Mr. Brown. No ; he didn’t say where, but I ask her if he 
complained there. 
Gov. Butler. I should hardly think a man of any taste 
would complain at the table, where he was eating, that the bath 
was dirty and that excrement was swimming around on the 
water. I should not want that for sauce, even for Tewksbury 
squabs. 
Mr. Brown. Well, your taste is peculiar. 
Gov. Butler. I hope not in that regard. 
Mr. Brown. I take it it is perfectly proper to ask this wit- 
ness if she ever heard any complaint. 1 don’t limit it to the 
table, and you understand perfectly well, if you heard my ques- 
tion, that I did not. 
Gov. Butuer. I heard distinctly. The question was, Did 
you meet with them at the table? Yes, sir. Did you hear 
them make any complaint ? 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; that was not the question. 
The question was : Whether at the institution, or at any other 
time since you have been there, you ever heard any of these 
four people, Mr. Barker or his wife, Mr. Dudley or his wife, 
complain of any insufficiency of bathing arrangements in the 
insane department. 
Gov. Butler. To which I object. 
Mr. Brown. For the reason that she has had no opportunity 
to hear them? 
Gov. Butler. Very well; find that out before you ask the 
question. You are now trying to contradict somebody. When 
a man says he did a certain thing, you cannot show that he 
didn’t by showing that he never told anybody that he did. 
You can confirm him by showing that he told somebody, but it 
was not a thing which a decent man would do to talk to this 
young girl, because we are getting back now when she was 
quite young — to talk to this young girl and complain about 1814 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
bathing patients. The complaint ought to be made to the doc- 
tor or to the superintendent; and it don’t help this investiga- 
tion forward any to ask this witness this question. It is only 
to make a show of 157 witnesses, unless we are to know 
whether he complained about the bathing to this young woman. 
If he did he ought to have been turned out, in my judgment. 
My views may be peculiar; I have never been to Tewksbury. 
Mr. Brown. I am glad to hear you say that, because I was 
going to put that in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; I never have been. They only 
entertain Governor Long and you ; they would not entertain 
me. 
The Chairman. These subordinate officers, if they talked 
this thing over, it seems to me the conversation would have 
some competencjq but not very much. 
Gov. Butler. Any legal competency ? 
The Chairman. It is very slight, but I think it is competent. 
Gov. Butler. Where is the competency? But if you want 
to take the time. 
The Chairman. I don’t; but a good deal of that stufl has 
gone in. 
Gov. Butler. I have not put in that stuff. I prove that 
people have, not that people have not, complained. 
The Chairman. He wants to prove that they have not, 1 
suppose. They say they did complain. It seems to me it is 
competent for him to show to whom they did not complain, in 
speaking of this among their associates. It is not very strong, 
but it seems to me it is not incompetent. 
Gov. Butler. The difference between me and the chairman 
is that it is not evidence at all, for they say they complained to 
Dr. Lathrop and Mr. Marsh, the proper persons to complain to. 
Now, to show that they did not complain to a young woman, 
who could not do anything about it, who had nothing to do with 
it, and who ought to have been at school, I say is no evidence ; 
has no tendency, legally. You see we are going back now to 
1876 ; we are going back seven years upon this matter. Why, 
it would be illustrated by the Irishman, who said, when tvro men 
swore that they had seen him steal a pig,—“Won’t twenty 
swear down two? Well, I can bring twenty men that didn’t see 
me steal it?” 
The Chairman. The difficulty was that the twenty men were 
not present. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 800. 
1815 
Gov. Butler, But this woman was not present. She was 
not where the old men were bathing, I trust? 
The Chairman. No. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; then she was not present. 
The Chairman. Is it not in the nature of the case, Governor, 
that if these difficulties existed that Dudley would talk it over 
with his associate officers? So is it not some evidence? 
Gov. Butler. Not the slightest. If he did talk it over with 
them, that might be some possible evidence ; but that he did not 
talk over the bathing of this establishment with this young 
woman, — and I say again that he ought to have been dis- 
charged if lie did, — is not of the slightest consequence. 
The Chairman. I will put it to the committee. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency has spoken three times, and I 
would like to say a word. 
Gov. Butler. I have been talking with the chairman. 
Mr. Brown. I put the question as to whether this young 
lady associated at the table and otherwise with Mr. and Mrs. 
Dudley and Mr. and Mrs. Barker. Now, Mr. Barker and Mr. 
Dudley have both testified to a certain deficiency in the bathing 
apparatus as existing all the time the}r were there. Mrs. Dudley 
testified to the same thing on direct examination, but on cross- 
examination she did recollect that there were two individual 
bath-tubs in the insane department. Now, I put to this witness 
this question, as to whether, at the institution or at any time 
subsequent, whenever she has met those people, she has ever 
heard them make a remark that there was any in that 
regard. It is the commonest question put at any legal trial, and 
I have a distinct recollection, in the various trials where I have 
attended a§ a matter of curiosity to hear His Excellency cross- 
examine witnesses, that I have heard him ask that question a 
half-dozen times, —• when first, in substance, did you ever tell 
this story? He has asked that this morning. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; certainly. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I have here a witness who was associated 
with these people for years, and I ask her in substance whether 
she ever heard them complain, — not to her; not whether Mr. 
Dudley complained to her about the bathing apparatus for the 
men. — but did she ever hear any complaint from either of these 
four people. I put it in order to be brief. The same question 
has been asked by His Excellency the governor, no less than a 
dozen times during this hearing. 1816 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Not once. » 
Mr. Brown. Asked this question, in substance. 
[The question was admitted ; seven in the affirmative.] 
The Chairman. Seven ; that is more than half the commit- 
tee ; you may put the question. 
Q. Did 3-011 understand the question? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Will you answer it without its being repeated? A. 
They never spoke to me about it that I remember of. 
Q. Neither Mrs. Dudle}r nor Mrs. Barker? A. No, sir. 
Q. Since they left the hospital, Mr. Dudley and his wife, 
have 3-011 ever seen them to have conversation with them? A. 
I have met them once ; seen them at Danvers. 
Q. How long were 3-ou at Danvers? A. I went there with 
a patient,— Miss Allen. 
Q. How long were you there ? A. I stayed there, I should 
think, two hours ; went through the institution. 
Q. Had conversation with them ? A. Yes. 
Q. Conversation turn to what took place at Tewksbury at 
all? A. No, sir ; they asked me if things were about the same 
as they used to be, and I said they were ; I didn’t think there 
was any change in it. 
Q. Now, Mr. and Mrs. Barker, — have 3Tou had conversation 
with either of them since the3r left the institution? A. They 
have been out to the institution visiting, and they came around 
to the hospital; I met them there. 
Q. How man3' times have Mr. and Mrs. Barker been to the 
Tewksburj- institution visiting since the3' left their service 
there? A. Mrs. Barker has been once, and I think Mr. Barker 
has been twice, to my knowledge. I didn’t meet him there the 
last time. * 
Q. Now, Miss McKinnon, at any time, whether they were 
at the institution, — either of those four persons, — were at the 
institution or since, have 3'ou ever heard them say anything 
about any knowledge on their part of an3’ abuse or mismanage- 
ment of an3’ of the patients which existed while the3* were there 
at Tewksbury ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never did. While 3-011 were at Tewksbury, and while 
Mrs. Barker was at Tewksbuiw, did Mrs. Barker have a relative 
there as an inmate ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who was she? A. Jane Douglass. 
Q. What was the matter with her ? A. She had syphilis of 
the worst kind. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1817 
Q. Did you ever hear Mrs. Barkfer complain in regard to 
the treatment of her cousin at any time? A. No, sir; she 
never mentioned her name to me. She never came to see her 
at all. 
Q. What department are you now in? A. I am still in 
the women’s hospital. 
Q. And you have been there continuously all the time? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Which of the buildings is that in? A. I am in the 
centre building, now ; the new hospital. 
Mr. Brown. Let us look at this plan a moment. 
Gov. Butler. There is no dispute, is there, Mr. Brown, 
which building that Was ? She knows, and you and I know, and 
every bod}’ knows by this time. 
Q. Now, what physicians have been in charge of that build- 
ing, that hospital, since you have been there? A. Dr. Wil- 
kin. Dr. Lathrop has been there when she has been away. 
Q. And how long has Dr. Wilkin been there? A. I think 
it is a year last January since she came there,—January or 
February ; I don’t l’emember which. 
Q. And she has been there continuously since, has she? 
A. Yes ; except to be away on a vacation. 
Q. Now, what other physicians have been there? A. That 
is all that has been there. Dr. Otterson and, —Dr. Otterson 
has had one case ; he had a scarlet fever case there. 
Q. And, now, what is the number of inmates you have now? 
A. We have eighty-one. 
Q. Eighty-one? A. Women; and there are nineteen chil- 
dren in there ; was when I left this morning. 
Q. And about, — without stating accurately, state as near 
as you can, what has been about the average number of patients 
in that hospital since you have been there? A. Eighty-one,— 
it is kept full all the time. They are coming and going. Just 
as soon as they come in we have to send some one who is well 
enough to go out to make room enough for the sicker one. We 
are kept full all the time. They are coming every day, and, 
as soon as we have more than we have beds for, we have to 
send those out who are well enough to go, to make room for 
the sicker ones. 
Q. And that has been the case for how long a time ? A. 
Why, it is the case all the time; ever since I have been there. 
Q. Now, in this hospital do you have individual rooms, or 1818 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
1 Apr. 
are the}" all in one large room? A. We have individual rooms 
on one side of the hospital. There is two in one room, and 
single rooms with one. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That is, two beds? A. Yes, sir; 
two beds and a single bed. * 
Q. Now, what attendants do you have there besides your- 
self? A. We are supposed to have two besides myself, — we 
have only one, at present, — and a night nurse. 
Q. Two and a night nurse? A. Only one there now,— 
one has left, — and the night nurse. 
Q. When did she leave? A. She left sometime this month ; 
I don’t remember just what day. 
Q. What was her name? A. Mary Jane Russell. 
Gov. Butler. Sometime this month, you say? 
Mr. Brown. Sometime this month, she says. 
Q. Now, what other assistants do you have beside the night 
nurse and this attendant which you have had up to within this 
month? A. We have three women that come from the asylum 
to help, and wre have to depend on what we have got in the 
hospital that are well enough to help. Those who are well 
enough are supposed to help in taking care of the others. 
Q. By the women in the institution you mean they are 
women who are inmates, do you ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Who come to help? A. There are three from the in- 
sane asylum come to help every day. They sleep over there, 
and they come over and help in the day. 
Q. What are their names? A. Ann Desmond is one, and 
Catherine Sullivan, and Rosanna Harwood is the third. 
Gov. Butler. They are inmates, I understand? 
Q. They are inmates in the insane department? A. Yes; 
they sleep there, and come as helpers in the hospital. 
Q. Now, what is their condition ; what is their ability to 
render assistance? A. They do the scrubbing; you can’t rely 
on them for anything that is of any account, except it is to scrub 
and clean up. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Can’t rely on them for anything 
except scrubbing and cleaning up? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, take that hospital, Miss McKinnon, in point of 
cleanliness ; how is its present condition, in point of cleanliness, 
compared with what it has been since you have been there? 
A. It is the same. It is kept just as clean as soap and water 
can keep it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1819 
Q. Is there any change, has there been any change, in point 
of cleanliness since you have been there? A. No, sir. 
Q. I suppose, Miss McKinnon, there is no lack of labor 
there of inmates sufficiently7 skilled to scrub floors and wash up, 
is there? A. No, sir ; we get enough for that. * 
Q. Has there ever been a lack of that kind of labor in your 
hospital that you know of? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, Miss McKinnon, whether or not the assistance 
which you have had, — yourself and one assistant and a night 
nurse, — is a sufficient force to take care of these eighty-one 
people? A. No, sir; it is not. There ought to be three of 
us in the day, anyway. 
Q. There ought to be three of you in the day. A. We 
can’t get along with any less, very well. 
Q. And what hours do you keep there ; what hours have you 
been obliged to work? A. We work from six till half-past six, 
— six in the morning till half-past six in the evening ; sometimes 
till a quaiter of seven. One waits till the others have had 
their meals and the night nurse comes on. 
Q. The night nurse comes on at a quarter of seven? A. 
Yes. 
Q. And stays till what time in the morning? A. She stays 
till six o’clock in the morning. 
Q. Now, have you been obliged, since you have been there, 
to be on duty at six o’clock in the morning the year round ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Winter and summer? A. We have our breakfast at 
six, and right afier breakfast we go to the ward ; one goes down 
before the others, till the others get breakfast. 
Q. So that there is one or the other of these two nurses you 
have spoken of always on duty there at six o’clock in the morn- 
ing? A. Yes. 
Q. And remains there till a quarter-past seven at night. 
What pay do you get? A. I have $25 a month, now. 
When I first went there I had $22. I think it is about three 
years ago it was raised to $25. I am not sure just what year. 
Q. Now, when the women come to the hospital, what is 
done with them ; are they given a bath, or anything of that kind? 
A. Yes, sir ; every one has to have a bath. 
Q. Now, just give us the routine which a woman goes through 
when she comes to the hospital? A. She is taken to the bath- 
ing-room and bathed. If she is very sick, we have her put to 1820 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
bed and sponged there ; but, if she is able, we have her put in 
the bath-tub ; and have their heads combed, and give them all 
clean clothes. The clothes that are on them are sent to the bag- 
gage-room, and they get them back when they go out. If their 
heads are very dirty and full of nits, the hair has to be cut. 
They don’t cut the hair unless it is spoiled with nits. 
Q. Unless it is filled with nits? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, what arrangments had you for bathing? A. We 
have hot and cold water; soap. 
Q. Always have had since you have been there? A. Yes, 
sir. When we first moved to these buildings, the water had to 
be carried there. We didn’t have hot and cold water, but we 
have plenty now. 
Q. Individual bath-tubs? A. Yes. 
Q. How many in the bathing department of that hospital ? 
A. There is one in the new hospital and one in 18. 
Q. When you speak of 18, what do you mean? A. It is 
the further building, next the laundr}\ 
Q. That the building where you are ? A. No ; I am in the 
new building. There is one in the new hospital and one in 18. 
In the long hospital, where I first was, we had two bath-tubs; 
one kept for the clean cases and the other for the syphilitic 
cases. 
Q. Now, as to the food in the hospital; what do you say 
about that? A. We have bread and butter, tea and coffee, 
and oat-meal gruel, and milk, hot milk and cold milk ; and there 
is a dozen of eggs comes in, and it is divided among the sickest 
ones ; sometimes we use them raw, and make egg-nogs for the 
sick ones ; and we always have some boiled ones. There is 
times when they get out of eggs, and we are a week or two 
without. And at noon, twice a week, we have potatoes. We 
have salt fish one day and fresh fish the other,— the fresh fish 
is Tuesday and the salt fish Friday. Mondays we have corned 
beef, Wednesdays we have soup, Thursday we have pudding, 
Saturdays we have soups,— we always have pudding at noon. 
Q. In point of quantity is there any lack of food ? A. No, 
sir; if we don’t have enough, we send to the kitchen for more, 
and get it. 
Q. Have you ever had any difficulty in getting enough? A. 
No; very seldom. There was sometimes, perhaps, the fish 
would give out, would not go far enough. If we didn’t have it 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1821 
to go far enough we gave them butter. It is very seldom but 
what there is enough. 
Q. IIow frequently has that happened since you have been 
there? A. I should not think it happened more than half a 
dozen times since I have been there. We have beef tea at 
night for sick cases. There is three quarts comes daily to the 
hospital of an evening. 
Q. Beef tea? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How as to the quality of it? A. It is very good. 
Q. Have you ever had any experience outside of the hospi- 
tal as a nurse? A. Yes, sir; I was four years at the Massa- 
chusetts General Hospital. 
Q. Four years at the Massachusetts General Hospital ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And how old were you when you went to the Massachu- 
setts General Hospital, do you recollect? A. I think I was 
twenty-two. 
Q. Now, how does the diet at the hospital which you are in 
at Tewksbury compare with the diet at the Massachusetts Gen- 
eral Hospital ? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think we should go into that compari- 
son. We have had this all up before, you know. It may be 
good, and may not be good, at the Massachusetts General Hospi- 
tal ; we have got to go into the investigation of that, you know 
Mr. Brown. I will put the question in another form. 
Q. Having in mind your experience as a nurse outside of 
this institution, what articles of diet do you think ought to be 
introduced for the good of your patients there at Tewksbury? 
What articles, that don’t have, do yTou think ought to be in- 
troduced? A. Well, I think if they had chicken occasionally, 
and chicken broth,—that is about the only thing ; we have about, 
everything else they need, — if they had chicken broth occa- 
sionally it would be good. Everything else seems to be about 
right. 
Q. Do you have anyT jellies or delicacies of that kind? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Any preserved fruits or vegetables? A. They’ have 
vegetables in summer; and, in the summer-time, we have 
apples. 
Q. I mean vegetables out of season. A. There are apples 
passed around occasionally in the winter-time; we have soups 
made of vegetables. 1822 
CHAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, have you ever heard any complaint there at Tewks- 
bury with regard to the inmates, when they were discharged, not 
getting their clothes? A. No, sir ; I never heard it till lately. 
Q. When you say lately, what do you mean? A. Since 
this investigation commenced. 
Q. Since the investigation. Have you ever had conversa- 
tion with any of your inmates, after they were dressed ready to 
depart from the institution? A. I have met them 
They don’t come often to the hospital. I have been at the 
office, and perhaps met them just as they were going out. 
Q. Have you met them outside the institution, sometimes? 
A. No, sir ; I don’t think I ever did, except two. I met one 
in Boston,— I didn’t speak to her ; and I met one of the men in 
Lowell. 
Q. Any of your inmates, that you have had in your depart- 
ment, ever come back to you? A. Yes, sir; they come back 
very often. 
Q. Now, from those that you have talked with who were 
ready to depart, and those that have come back, have you ever 
heard any complaint that they didn’t receive all their articles of 
clothing? A. No, sir ; I don’t remember of ever hearing it. 
Q. Now, Miss McKinnon, what complaints from inmates or 
outside have you ever heard made against this institution prior 
to this investigation? Just tell us everything you have ever 
heard, or anything that you know that is wrong that exists 
there or ever has existed there. A. I don’t know of anything ; 
I don’t remember of anything. 
Q. Don’t remember of any complaint? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, take the other branch of the subject; do you know 
of anything wrong in the management, or anything that is 
wrong there at the institution? A. No, sir; I think every- 
thing is managed as well as it can be. 
Q. When you say as well as it can be, what do you mean by 
that? You don’t mean to say, I suppose, but what it would be 
possible to have better things and better help, and everything 
of that kind, do you? A. I think we could get better help. 
Q. What do you mean when you say it is managed as well 
as it can be ? A. I meant I thought the Marshes and the doc- 
tors managed it as well as the}- could. 
Gov. Butler. Meant what? I didn’t get that. 
Mr. Brown. That is what I wanted to get at. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What is the answer? A. I think 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1823 
the doctors and the Marshes manage the things as well as they 
can with the people they have to do with. 
Mr. Brown. With the people they have to do with. 
Gov. Butler. I think so, too. 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t hear that. 
Gov. Butler. I think so, too. 
Mr. Brown. I am glad to hear you admit that, that you 
think so, too. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, I think so, too,— in this instance. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Miss McKinnon, has your mother ever been there ? A. 
No, sir; never. 
Q. Where were you born? A. I was born in Nova 
Scotia. 
Q. In Nova Scotia? A. Yes. 
Q. When did you come to this country? A. I came in 
1870. 
Q. In 1870? A. In August. 
Q. Who came with you? A. From Halifax? 
Q. Yes. A. There was three of us came together from 
the insane asylum in Halifax ; we were attendants there. 
Q. Three of you came in 1870 from the insane asylum where 
you were attendants? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And which three were they ? A. One was Mary Sento- 
ris, the other was Ellen Sentoris,— Ellen Sentoris is dead,— 
the third is Belle Southerland. 
Q. And they died? A. No, sir ; Ellen Sentoris is the only 
one that died. 
Q. Where is the other one ; did they go to Tewksbury? A. 
No, sir ; Miss Southerland has been out visiting,— Miss South- 
erland does private nursing in Boston. 
Q. Leave out the others ; how long had you been a nurse in 
the insane asylum at Halifax? A. Two years. 
Q. That is, you began in 1868. How long after you left the 
insane asylum did you come here? A. I came direct from 
there here. 
Q. When did your sister come; you are Elizabeth ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mary was one of them, wasn’t she? A. Yes, sir; 
they didn’t come till some years afterwards. 1824 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. They didn’t come for some years afterwards; were you 
the oldest or the youngest? A. I was the oldest. 
Q. IIow much younger were they than you ; which is the 
next below you ? A. I have two brothers below me. 
Q. And these two brothers, — they younger or older? A. 
Mary — 
Q. What? A. 1 have two brothers and then Sarah is the 
next. 
Q. Then the family will be : Elizabeth, two brothers, and 
then Sarah, and then the others between? A. There was four 
girls and four boys, and my youngest brother is dead. 
Q. How many of the girls have been to Tewksbury? A. 
There are three of my sisters have been to Tewksbury. 
Q. Sarah and Mary ? A. Yes, sir ; and Reina. 
Q. Then there have been four of you all told at Tewksbury ; 
girls? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And your ages will be : you first, the oldest, Mary next, 
the two brothers between, and then Reina? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was the next oldest, and Mary the next? A. No, sir; 
Reina was the youngest.% 
Q. What? A. Reina is the youngest. 
Q. And you were three years at the insane asylum at Hali- 
fax? A. No,* sir ; I was the only one nursed there. 
Q. The only one ; the rest of them had no experience. Then 
you came here ; and when did you go into the Massachusetts 
General Hospital? A. I went there in 1872? 
Q. What were you doing between 1871 and 1872? A. I 
was a year at Taunton, in the insane asylum there, au atten- 
dant. 
Q. An attendant in Taunton? A. Yes. sir. 
Q. And then you went into the Massachusetts General Hos- 
pital. How long were you there ? A. I was there four years. 
Q. That brought it to 1876? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you went to Tewksbury from there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In 1876. What were you doing at Taunton? A. 1 was 
au attendant over the insane. 
Q. How many had you under your charge? A. I can’t 
remember just what it was ; we had a good many in the wards ; 
I think it was about seventy; I can’t remember exactly. 
Q. About seventy, you think? A. I think it was ; I am 
not sure. 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300 
1825 
Q. What pay did you get there? A. I had $13 a month 
when I first went there, and then I had 14. 
Q. Then you came to the Massachusetts General Hospital; 
what did you do there? A. I had charge of the sick there ; I 
was an assistant there three years, and the last year I was head 
nurse. 
Q. The last year ? A. The last year I had charge of three 
private rooms and three wards. 
Q. What pay did you get there? A. They changed the 
pay there; when I first went I had $11 a month; then I had 
13, and I had 16 the last year I was there. 
Q. And then you went to Tewksbury from there, at $264 a 
year, wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you get now 300 ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Pray what year were you born? A. 1850. 
Q. How old were you when you were in the institution at 
Halifax? A. I was about 18. , 
Q. How old is your next oldest sister ; next younger sister, 
I should say ? A. I think she was 22 last March. 
Q. What? A. Twenty-two or 23, I guess it was 23, last 
March. 
Q. Is that Reina? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did Reina go to Tewksbury ? A. She went there 
four years ago, —two years ago ; yes, four years ago. 
Q. Four years ago ; what time of the year? A. She went 
there in the spring. 
Q. Then it was four years ago this spring. How old was 
the next oldest? A. When she went there? 
Q. No ; how old is she now? We can find out, easily, by 
these books when she went there. A. How old is she now, is 
it? 
Q. That is it. A. I think she is 27, but I am not certain. 
Q. And how old is the next one, now? There are four of 
you there? A. She is 31, I should think. 
Q. What is her name? A. Sarah. 
Q. How old was the other? A. I am the next. 
Q. I have got Reina, Sarah and Elizabeth ; there is another 
one, isn’t there? A. You have got Reina, Mary, Sarah, and 
I am Elizabeth. 
Q. Now, when did your sister, — which two of the sisters 
went there before yon did in 1876? A. Sarah, 1826 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. What? A. Sarah was the first one. 
Q. And you told us how old she was? A. I think she is 
about 31 ; I don’t just remember. 
Q. What time did she go there? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Don’t remember; about how long ago? How many 
years was she there before you ? A. She left before I went 
there ; I think she was there about two years ; I am not certain 
about the dates. 
Q. About three years before? A. I should think so. 
Q. She left before you went there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then she went there about 1871, — about 1873; how 
long did she leave before you came? A. I don’t remember ; I 
should think it was about a year, but I won’t say about the 
date. 
Q. About a year; and she was there about three years. 
Was she nurse or matron? A. She was nurse in the hospital. 
Q. Were you the only one of the family that was a matron? 
A. I am a nurse there. 
Q. What? A. I am a nurse there in the sick hospital. 
Q. Weren’t you ever a matron? A. No, sir; I have 
always been a nurse. 
Q. You were a nurse in each of these rooms? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Well, you had charge, you ordered things about, you 
were the person who had the charge? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many nurses had you with you? A. Two and 
three ; sometimes they would be gone away, and there was one 
time there was a year with just two. We are supposed to have 
four all the time. 
Q. What? A. There are supposed to be four there all the 
time. 
Q. I know ; but, without the supposition, how many were 
there actually there ? A. There was four of us there most of 
the time. 
Q. Two in the daytime and one at night? A. Three for 
the day and one for the night. 
Q. Were either of your sisters in the same room? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. How many of them? A. They all worked in that 
room. 
Q. What? A. They were all in the hospital. 
Q. In the women’s hospital ? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1827 
Q. Are the}T larger and stronger women than you? A. My 
sister Mary is a good deal larger; Reina is taller. 
Q. Now, did they have, in addition to the charge of these 81 
patients, did they have anything to do with the children’s room ? 
A. No, sir ; except the sick children that were in the hos- 
pital with their mothers. 
Q. In these 81 do you include the sick children? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. There were 81 besides the sick children ; how many sick 
children? A. They are coming and going all the time. 
Q. The sick hospital was rather overflowing, wasn’t it? A, 
There was, — when we had the lying-in room there a year, we 
had a great many more babies. 
Q. How? A. We had the lying-in room there one year, 
and we had a great many more babies than I have in the hos- 
pital. 
Q. In addition to this 81, the same force had the lying-in 
ward? A. No, sir ; that was when we didn’t have but 75, in 
that long hospital; it is 81 where we are now. 
Q. When you had 75, you had in addition the lying-in room, 
did you? A. The lying-in room was included with the 75. 
Q. Do 3’ou remember Charlotte Anderson? A. Yes, 
sir, I do ; I remember that she was there. 
Q. She was insane, wasn’t she? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you remember the occasion of her having a child ? 
A. No, sir ; I cannot remember the birth. I remember gen- 
erally, but I do not remember the birth. 
Q. You knew she had one? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that she was in charge in the foundling hospital ? 
A. I didn’t remember that until I saw it in the papers. 
Q. You don’t remember that? A. No, sir; I had noth- 
ing to do with it. 
Q. Then all, except the scrubbing which was done by in- 
mates, that had to be done in that room where eight37-one peo- 
ple were sick, was to be done by you three or four, or one in 
the night? A. One in the night. 
Q. You depended on the inmates for scrubbing and clean- 
ing only? A. No ; they helped make the beds, carry the food 
to the sick, and assisted in making the inmates clean. 
Q. Then they were of some account, were they not? A. 
Well, there had to be some one after them all the time. CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
1828 
;Apr. 
Q. There had to be somebody watching them all the time? 
A. I mean they were not responsible. 
Q. Or else they would not do it right? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And these, in addition to being inmates, Avere insane in- 
mates at that? A. No, sir; the insane inmates were for the 
scrubbing. Then we had other helpers; as they got better 
they helped to take care of the sick ones. 
Q. I understood you to say that you had insane inmates to 
do scrubbing, and such work as that, and to carry meals around? 
A. What? 
Q. I understand that the insane inmates did the scrubbing 
and the carrying meals around? A. Well, sometimes they 
would not do it. 
Q. And they would not do it without watching, J under- 
stood you to say, all the time. Well, if you had to watch them 
all the time, was it not just as well to carry the meals around 
yourself? A. We could not do that; we have to dish it out. 
Q. Then you could not watch them all the time? A. Well, 
the two assistants dish out the meals, the inmates carry them 
around, and I see that they get it. 
Q. You see that they get it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the insane inmates helped to make the beds? A. 
Yes, sir ; some of them. 
Q. They helped to take care of the sick, didn’t they? A. 
Very little. 
Q. A very little, but they did some? So that this is all 
there was for eighty-one inmates for years? A. There were a 
good many that were getting well. 
Q. What? A. There are a good many that are getting 
well who help besides that. 
Q. And those that get well and help, do they do much more 
than to take care of themselves ? A. Oh, yes ; they do the 
sweeping. 
Q. Now, who deals out the medicine to the inmates? A. 
I do. 
Q. Where do 3Tou get it? A. We have our medicine closet 
in the hospital; the medicine comes from the dispensary ; the 
doctor fdls the bottles when they are empty. 
Q. What do you have in that dispensary closet? You have 
always had one? A. Always have had it. 
Q. What do you have in that dispensary? A. We have 
everything that is given out to the sick as medicine. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1829 
Q. Everything that is given out to the sick. Have para- 
goric, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Laudanum? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Morphine? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Ipecac; tartar emetic? A. Once in awhile, when we 
want it. 
Q. It is there? A. It is there. 
Q. And it is your business to dispense that medicine? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And at the foundling hospital, when they had one there 
— thej' have not had one there lately, you know — where was 
that hospital situated in regard to your hospital; did it open out 
of it? A. Oh, no ; it is across the yard, away from that. 
Q. Now, you have been in the men’s hospital? A. I have 
been in there with company. 
Q. And there you have seen, I suppose, they have a dis- 
pensary closet there the same as you have? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And over in the lying-in hospital, I suppose, they have a 
dispensary ? A. That is the same ; we only had the lying-in 
room one year. 
Q. And they had the dispensary? A. Just the same 
closet. 
Q. A long closet, the same as this? A. Well, the medi- 
cines were kept in the hospital closet for the lying-in, when they 
were in the hospital. 
Q. Oh, certainly ; the same closet. They ’went to the same 
closet. Did they have any in the foundling? Did they use to 
have any medicines in the foundling ward, or were they left to 
die without medicines? A. I don’t know anything about a 
medicine closet in the foundling ; I know they have a little closet 
there now, and it may have been there always, but I didn’t 
notice it until lately. I don’t know whether it has any medi- 
cines in it or not. 
Q. Well, now, does not the nurse in the hospital have free 
access, whenever she chooses, to the medicine closet? A. The 
nurse? I never give medicine unless it is prescribed. 
Q. I don’t ask that question. A. Yes, sir ; we have access 
to the closet. 
Q. And you could have given it all if }’on had been so bad, 
couldn’t 3Tou ? A. Why, no, sir. 1 could, of course ; but I 
didn’t. 
Q. I wanted to know whether you had the full control. 1830 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Now, take this case, ’when you were in the lying-in hospital. A 
child was a little fretful from want of sleep. Would you go 
and call the doctor before you gave it a drop of paregoric or 
not? A. No, sir; if it was only a little fretful I would give it 
a few drops of peppermint and water. Peppermint, hot drops 
and ginger we are not supposed to go to the doctor about. 
Q. I suppose a woman knows just as well as anybody about 
that. You would give a child a drop of peppermint, or a drop 
of paregoric, or camphor, without an order? A. I never give 
paregoric without an order. 
Q. Now, what else besides peppermint? A. Peppermint is 
all that we give the babies without an order. 
Q. Well, any one of the female physicians would give it? 
A. I don’t know what they gave. 
Q. Why, pardon me; didn’t Nellie Marsh used to give it? 
A. Nellie Marsh was not a physician when 1 was there. 
Q. What? A. Nellie Marsh was not there as a physician 
when I went there. 
Q. Was she ever? A. I heard she was before I went there. 
Q. Hasn’t she been there since? Seen her since? A. 
Yes, sir ; 1 have seen her. 
Q. Hasn’t she been there as a physician? A. No, sir. 
She went to Europe soon after I went there. 
Q. Let us see what the record says. [Refei’ring to an 
auditor’s report.] Here is the report for 187G, when you were 
there. Do you know whether she was there or not? Did she 
draw her pay regularly? Helen M. Marsh, assistant physi- 
cian. Would not the report published in 1877 for 1876 be 
correct? You were there in the spring, you know. You don’t 
mean to say they paid her if — A. I went there in August, 
1876. 
Q. Did she go awa}T after you got there ? A. She was not 
a physician when I went there. She went to Europe after I 
went there. 
Q. That is, she had gone to Europe before you got there? 
A. No, sir; after I went there; a short time after I went 
there. 
Q. She left and went to Europe. Well, wasn’t she a physi- 
cian at the time you went there? A. No, sir. 
Q. And you are sure you went there in 1876? A. Yes. 
sir. 
Q. Then you and the book disagree. How much of the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1831 
time did old Mrs. Marsh spend in the hospital? A. Mrs. 
Marsh was not much about the hospital when I was there. It 
was under the doctor’s control, and she only came there to 
visit. 
Q. Did you know of her giving any orders anywhere else? 
A. I don’t know what took place in an}' of the wards outside 
of the hospital. 
Q. You don’t know what took place anywhere except in 
your own ward? A. No, sir. I had as much as I could do 
to take care of my own ward. 
Q. Then you don’t mean to say whether they were kicked, 
pounded and knocked about in any other place, for you were 
not there? A. No, sir; I never saw one. 
Q. Can you tell me ; do you remember, — all you know is 
what was done for the women in your hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, you never saw a hand laid upon one of those 
women, except to wash them, and to take care of them. A. 
Sometimes they don’t want to go into the bath, and when they 
don’t, we have had to put them in ; when they first come. 
Q. Who takes them up and puts them in? A. The nurses 
do, with the help of some of the women, if there are not nurses 
enough. 
Q. Well, these are sick people ; how often did it happen that 
they would not want to go into the bath? A. Well, it don’t 
happen very often ; there is, occasionally, one. I don’t remem- 
ber any particular case. 
Q. Well, those are sane women ? A. I think insane from 
drink. 
Q. How often do you bathe those patients? A. We bathe 
them once a week. 
Q. Where do you bathe them ; in what bath-tub? A. In 
the bath-tub in the bathing-room ; and those, if there are any, 
that are very sick when they come in, we sponge-bathe them on 
the bed. 
Q. Precisely. You put in eighty odd, more or less, through 
that bath-tub? A. No, sir ; not all of those. 
Q. What was your bathing day? A. Friday. Now, we 
have two days. 
Q. How long has that been going on? A. Since we 
changed to the new hospital; since the building was divided 
up. 
Q. It was formerly once a week. A. Yes, sir. 1832 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And bathing day was Friday ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What time did you begin in the morning? A. In the 
sunnner-time, if very hot, we commenced quite early in the 
morning; say about seven o’clock. 
Q. What time did you use to get through when you com- 
menced so early? A. I don’t remember; in the forenoon. 
Q. Before twelve o’clock? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many attended to the bathing part of it? A. 
Where we were first, one nurse sent the women up to the 
bathing-room, and the other nurse saw that their clothes were 
changed, and I combed their heads. 
Q. . They were all sent up there at a time, I suppose? A. 
No, sir; two or three at a time. 
Q. How many? A. Two or three. There was a room. 
They went out, and the others came in. 
Q. And when it was cold weather you began later in the 
morning. Why? Because the rooms would not get warm? A. 
We began to get through our work, so that we could go at it. 
Q. You began to get through your work. About what time 
would that be? A. Well, we got through breakfast, gave out 
the medicine, and then we were ready for bathing. 
Q. What time would that be ? A. Breakfast comes about 
quarter-past seven ; the medicine we give out, I should think, 
about eight, or half-past eight, or along there, just as before. 
Q. Well, in those days, when did you get through ; before 
dinner? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What time is dinner served; twelve o’clock? A. At 
one o’clock for the inmates. 
Q. One o’clock for the hospital? A. For the hospital. 
Q. You got through before dinner. Well, there was one 
bath-tub, and you drew it full enough of water for the purpose 
of bathing a person? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Gave them plenty of water, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then how did you heat it; by steam, or by drawing 
hot water. A. Drew in hot water. There was cold and hot 
water right over the bath-tub. 
Q. You would draw into the bath-tub hot water and cold 
water, so as to temper it readily? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Get enough to bathe a person ; they would get out, then 
you would let that water run off, then you would draw in some 
more, and put in another, and so on? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And when one refused to go in for any cause, why then 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1833 
it was a little more fuss, and you had to put them in? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. About how many did you sponge out of the eighty-one? 
A. We sponged all the consumptives and those that were sick. 
I cannot tell how many; there were different numbers every 
week. Sometimes twenty, or there might be more. 
Q. There might be more or less, but twenty. Then we have 
got sixty; and you always changed the water every time? A. 
Yes, sir ; I always did. 
Q. Never failed. Now, you had from half-past eight until 
one o’clock to put about sixty people through there ; drawing 
the water into an ordinary bath-tub and letting it run off? A. 
We had two bath-tubs in the room that we are speaking of. 
Q. I thought you didn’t have but one. A. That is in the 
new hospital. 
Q. I was talking about when they had but one ; where there 
isn’t but one now. A. It is divided up. 
Q. I was talking about the long hospital. A. The build- 
ings are separate. 
Q. 1 asked if you bathed them all in that bath-tub, and you 
said you did. Now you think you bathe them somewhere else, 
because you see it would allow only about three minutes to 
draw the water, bathe a person, and let the water run off. A. 
That was in the long hospital; I was talking about the new. 
There is a bath-tub in No. 18. 
Q. I want to go back to the long hospital where there was 
only one. A. There are two bath-tubs in the long hospital. 
Q. Now there are two? A. Yes, sir ; always were. 
Q. Where was it there was not but one? A. That is in 
the new hospital where there isn’t but one. 
Q. Didn’t you tell me that you bathed them in a bath-tub in 
that room? A. Yes, sir. I mean there are two tubs, and 
we have always used two. 
Q. Pardon me ; didn’t you expressly tell me there was but 
one, and that you bathed them in that bath-tub ? I fixed that 
down before I went on, because I saw where you were likely to 
fly the track. A. Well, we alwa}’s used two bath-tubs. 
Q. Always? A. Always in the long hospital. 
Q. Well, in the women’s hospital? A. That was the 
women’s hospital, the long hospital. 
Q. You always, in the hospital that you had charge of, 
used two tubs? A. I did, in the long hospital. 1834 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Always in the hospital that you had charge of did you 
use two tubs? A. Yes, sir; while we were in the long 
hospital. 
Q. Well, leave that out. Did jmu always, in the hospital 
that you had charge of, use two tubs? A. Bathing days we 
did. 
Q. Of course you didn’t use them when you didn’t bathe. 
A. Well, we have them come in about every day from outside 
to be bathed. 
Q. I am asking about bathing days. Now, then, what hos- 
pital did you refer to when you told me that -you hadn’t but one 
bathing-tub, and you used that for bathing them? A. That is 
the new hospital. 
Q. Now, then, how long since you have been bathing there? 
A. Well, since the bath-tub was put in there. 
Q. How long ago was that? That was in 1876, was it not? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. It is within a year? A. I should think it was. 
Q. Now, didn’t some of those women object to bathing in 
those tubs? A. They don’t object where they are in right 
along ; it is those who come in from outside that object. Those 
that came in from the outside objected ; I don’t remember any 
particular one, but there were some. 
Q. And those that have got used to it don’t object? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. What was the objection of the people from the outside; 
didn’t they like the water? A. Well, some said they never 
had a bath and they didn’t know but it would kill them if they 
got into the water. Some thought it would realty kill them to 
get into a bath-tub ; and after that I would have to put them in. 
Q. That is right; but I should like to know, now, if there 
was any objection as to the water. A. Objection to the 
water ? 
Q. Yes. A. I don’t remember that there was. 
Q. Do you swear there was not? I don’t want any failure 
of memory. A. That patients objected to going into the 
water? 
Q. Yes ; to going into the water. A. No; only those I 
have spoken of. There might be a few from the outside. 
Q. The regular ones ? A. No, sir. 
Q. I want to know, whether they came from the outside or 
the other side, from heaven or the other place — did they ob- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1835 
ject to the water? No failure of memory now, if you please. 
A. Once in a while there would be some, and I would let them 
go with a sponge-bath. 
Q. Did they object to the water? No qualification. A. 
They didn’t object to the water ; only there would be, perhaps, 
a few cases that would, perhaps, rather have a sponge bath. 
Q. There were some cases where they would have a sponge 
bath. Did they make objection before they started, or after 
they got up thei’e, got up to the bath-room ? A. They would 
object before they got there. 
Q. Don’t you understand what I want to know now ? I want 
to know whether they objected on account of the water. A. On 
account of the water? 
Q. On account of the water. A. There was nothing 
against the water. 
Q. Haven’t you seen it when they thought the water was 
dirty ? A. I have seen it when they thought so, but I have 
never bathed two people in the same water in my life, never. 
Q. You never did? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did anybody object on account of the water? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. No; never? A. They have said that somebody had 
been in there, and I have told them that there had not, but that 
it was the soap in the water. 
Q. Sometimes you put the soap in before they got in, and 
they woidd say somebody had been in there, and you told them 
there had not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They objected to the water, but it was on account of the 
soap ; is that so? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did that happen frequently ? A. Not frequently. 
Q. Every day? A. I don’t suppose it happens more than 
once a year. 
Q. But about once a 3Tear they objected on account of the 
soap? A. They didn’t know it was soap. When I had put 
the soap in they said some one had been in there, because they 
didn’t see it go in. 
Q. Well, you put the soap in before the patient got in? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Every time? A. Yes, sir; most every time. 
Q. Soft soap? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And it would color the water? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Could not see the bottom of the tub? A. Yes, sir; I 1836 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
think you could ; I don’t think there was enough put in for 
that. 
Q. You think so? A. Why, yes; I didn’t put but a 
little in. * 
Q. It didn’t discolor the water any, did it? A. I don’t 
know. 
Q. They thought it looked as though some dirty person had 
been bathed there? When they made that objection did you 
put them in? A. Yes, sir; I always told them it was not so, 
and that we never did put two in the same water. 
Q. I understand. You told them it was not so. Then they 
would not believe you and you would have to put them in? A. 
No; I don’t remember that I had to force anybody in for that. 
Q. But you put them in? A. They went in ; 3ms, sir. 
Q. Now, was not the pond there in r time? A. I sup- 
pose it was, for I went through the asylum, and Mr. Barker 
showed me the pond. I didn’t know that the3r bathed in it. 
Q. Mr. Barker showed you the pond? A. We went 
through with company. 
Q. Mr. Barker showed you the pond as one of the sights. 
What did he show it to 3Tou for; as the place where the3T kept 
trout, or where they did the bathing? A. He said it was 
where they did the bathing ; that was all. 
Q. Didn’t he sa3r that all had to bathe there? A. I 
don’t remember. 
Q. What? A. I don’t remember what he said about it, 
only he said they bathed there. 
Q. And you don’t know what he said about it? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. You are sure you don’t? A. No, sir; 1 don’t. 
Q. Then, for aught you know, he said : “ There, I have to 
bathe all my people in this pond here without changing the 
water.” A. I don’t know what he said. 
Q. You don’t know but what he said that? A. Except 
that he showed 11s the pond. 
Q. He showed you the pond and said something about it; 
but whether he said : 41 This is the place where I put all these 
people in and bathe them without change of water,” you don’t 
know? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Then why did 3011 swear so glibly, just now, that he 
never made any complaint? A. He didn’t make complaint; 
he simply showed that. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1837 
Q. How do you know he didn’t complain ? You cannot re- 
member what he said. A. I don’t remember of his making 
any. 
Q. I know you don’t remember; therefore you cannot say 
whether lie complained or not. A. He was showing the men’s 
side to the company I took there, and he showed this the same 
as he did the dining-room. I don’t remember that any re- 
marks were made. 
Q. You cannot remember what he said about the dining- 
room? A. No, sir. 
Q. You cannot say whether he complained of that, then? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Of course not. Then he showed other things, and you 
cannot say whether he complained about them. Now, did you 
ever hear of anybody that got hurt at the institution by any 
accident? Let me see if I can help your memory a little. Did 
you hear of a man who got struck with a pickaxe? A. I read 
it in the paper; that was the first I knew about it. 
Gov. Butler. I never saw it in a paper. 
The Witness. I think it was in the paper. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; you had it yesterday, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. 1 asked if they had heard about it. 
Mr. Brown. We have never heard of it. 
The Witness. I have heard of it, and I think it was in the 
paper. 
Q. How long ago did you hear about it? A. It was with- 
in a day or two. 
Q. Where did you hear it? A. I cannot tell }tou that. 
Q. Well, weren’t you there when the man got hurt with a 
pickaxe? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Don’t you know whether 3x111 were? A. I don’t know 
anything about it, and I don’t know whether I was there or not, 
of when it was done. 
Q. Didn’t )Tou know of this occurrence when it took place? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Flow do }rou know you didn’t until }tou know what it is? 
This is it: Insane people were out in the }rard. One of them 
was set to digging a hole with a pickaxe, and he came to the 
conclusion that he would dig a hole in the head of one of the 
others, and he proceeded to do it, and killed him. Now, didn’t 
you hear about that? A. No, sir. 
Q. You know so little of what took place there that all that 1838 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
might have happened and yon not know it. One of the inmates 
might have been murdered and you would not know anything 
about it? A. I know very little, except about things in my 
own department. 
Q. Even that would not be a matter to attract atten- 
tion. Now, let us see about another person. I)o remem- 
ber a man that used to work in the foundling hospital, he was 
called Alley, an Englishman — you being a Nova Scotian 
would be likely to have been attracted to him a little. He used 
to work up in the foundling hospital, didn’t he? A. I don’t 
know any such man. Was he an inmate? 
Gov. Butler. I think he was ; his name was Tom Alley. 
The Witness. I don’t know him, sir. 
Gov. Butler. And he was an Englishman and he used to 
work in the foundling hospital, and he was sick, and he was 
ordered to do work, and afterwards claiming to be sick, he was 
taken and imprisoned ; and there was a little trouble about it, 
and then he was sent back to England. 
The Witness. I never heard a word about it. 
Q. You never heard a w'ord about it? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I wish you would call back Mr. Smith, Mr. 
Brown. 
Mr. Brown. Henry A. Smith, the nurse? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want to ask about another matter. You have 
been brought here to sa}' that this institution has been managed 
just as well as it could be. I want to see how far you know- 
Do you remember the last time Gov. Long was there? I mean 
the time when he came last and the council didn’t come with 
him. Do you remember the fact of his staj'ing all night, and 
making a political speech ? A. When he lectured ? Yes, sir ; 
1 attended the lecture. 
Q. What? You attended the lecture? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That was in 1879, was it not? A. I don’t know what 
year it was. • 
Q. It was a political lecture, was it not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the governor made a speech at Tewksbury. Did 
you go out with him? A. No, sir; I didn’t go with the gov- 
ernor. 
Q. Did you go at the same time he did ? A. I don’t know 
what time he went. I went with some of the others. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300 
1839 
Q. Well, he stayed all night? A. I don’t know; I saw 
him in the morning. 
Q. You saw him in. the morning and you saw him in the 
evening? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, “the evening and the morning were the first 
day?” A. It was at the village I saw him at the lecture, and 
in the morning he was at the institution. 
Q. You saw him in the evening at the village, and in the 
morning at the institution. Howr early? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Pretty early. He went awa}r on the eleven o’clock train, 
I suppose ? Don’t you know he was there as the guest of the 
institution? A. He might have been ; I don’t know. 
Q. Don’t you know? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. I want to find out how much you know about that insti- 
tution and- its management. Didn’t you find out that he was 
the guest of the institution ? A. The governor came there, but 
I could not say he stayed there over night. 
Q. Of course not; I didn’t suppose you could. A. I don’t 
remember. 
Q. You know whether he was there as the guest of the in- 
stitution? A. I could not swear to it. 
Q. Why not? I don’t know that you know by sleeping with 
him or anything of that kind. A. I don’t go to the Marshes* 
rooms ; I have as much as I can attend to at the hospital. 
Q. But you are not very busy in the evening, because you 
were all out on that night. You hadn’t so much to do but that 
3’ou could go to a political meeting? A. Yes; but then I 
don’t go to the Marshes’ rooms. 
Q. But, now, don’t you know, honestly and fairly, between 
us, between you and I, don’t you know that Gov. Long stayed 
there that night? A. No; I could not swear, because I did 
not see him there. 
Q. No ; because you didn’t see him there all night. How 
could you, in that ward, unless you attended to him all night; 
because he might have got out? A. The first I saw him was 
going towards the gate in the morning. 
Q. You saw him going out of the gate in the morning. 
Very well. Now, that was three years ago,—four years ago? 
That was in 1879? A. It might have been ; I don’t remember. 
Q. Did you see my brother Brown there ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That was last year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know whether he stopped at the institution all 1840 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
night? A. I don’t know; I saw him just about the same as I 
did the governor. 
Q. Well, I don’t want it to look as though, by my questions, 
I was inculpating these gentlemen at all ; I only want to know 
whether you saw them, as you would any other guest coming to 
the house to stop — distinguished guests, I mean? A. Well, 
sir, the hospital needed my attention and I was in the hospital. 
Q. Did you go to hear brother Brown? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Oh, certainly. And Mr. Thomas Marsh presided at the 
meeting, didn’t he? A. I rather think he did. 
Q. Don’t you know that he did? And you remember, don’t 
you, that he said that — at the time the governor was there — 
at this meeting, don’t you know he said that General Butler 
said at Salem that the first thing lie would do, if he was elected, 
would be to get the Marshes out, but that he never would. 
Don’t you remember about that? A. I heard that 3011 had 
said so, but I cannot swear that I heard it there that evening. 
Q. 1 know; but didn’t Marsh say it? Yes; I said it, and 
I have done it, too. Well, now, then, did you go out to the 
flag-raising at the village? A. . A year ago? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you at the other one in 1879? A. My sister and I 
walked down, but we didn’t stay a great while ; we came right 
back. 
Q. You were there at the flag-raising. Did Tom Marsh get 
out the flag there? A. I don’t know who got it up; I think 
the flag was up before we got there. 
Q. Before you got there. I won’t trouble 3011 au3* further. 
1 was showing how little you knew of what was going on there; 
1 won’t pursue it any further. Now, Miss McKinnon, the man- 
agement have cut you off with one nurse only? A. The nurse 
left, and the3r have not replaced one. 
Q. Who was she? A. Mrs. Russell. 
Q. Did you know Mrs. Rowell, who was there as a nurse? 
A. I used to know her at Taunton ; she was an attendant there 
at the time I was. 
Q. Where is she, do you know? A. I do not. 
Q. Where did 3x1 u hear from her last? A. Well, I cannot 
remember where I heard she was. The last time 1 saw her was 
at Tewksbury. 
Q. When was that? A. When she was there as nurse. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1841 
Q. Haven’t you heard from her since? A. I have heard of 
her, but I cannot remember what I heard about her. 
Q. Now, you have shown us how little you know except 
about your own department, and then you have told us there was 
never any institution better managed than that? A. I didn’t 
say better than that; I didn’t saj’ better managed ; I think it is 
managed as well as it can be. 
Q. Pardon me, when you said it was managed as well as it 
coidd be — what did you mean when you said the Marshes and 
the doctor — Dr. Lathrop, I suppose you mean—manager! the 
institution as well as they could, as well as it could be done ; 
what did you mean if you didn’t know anything more, except 
about your own room? A. Of course I could only speak as far 
as I knew. 
Q. Why haven’t you done us the favor to put that in before 
— “as far as I knew, and I only knew about my own depart- 
ment?” And you now, on your oath, say that since 1876 you 
never have heard of anything happening there that was a source 
of complaint by anybody, in any way, until this investigation — 
leave that out — that from 1876 down to the time this investi- 
gation began, there was nothing happened, no complaint ever 
made, nothing had happened that you ever heard of; that is 
what you mean to say ; nothing, of any sort; no complaint 
ever made of anything; everything comfortable and lovely, 
everybody satisfied, everybody happy, and no complaint made 
— 3’ou mean to say that, do you? A. No, sir ; I do not. 
Q. What complaint did you hear ? A. At various times the 
inmates arc very ungrateful. 
Q. What? At times there are some that are very ungrate- 
ful? A. Yes; the inmates. 
Q. There are a great many ungrateful people in this world, 
and a great many of them get into Tewksbury ; well, those 
ungrateful ones do complain? A. They do, in all the institu- 
tions 1 have ever been in. 
Q. I understand; they are always complaining. But I 
leave out the other institutions. I only want Tewksbury. 
Then a good many of these ungrateful people get there, do 
they? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And these ungrateful ones complain of how they have 
been kicked and pounded, haven’t had enough to eat, food poor, 
and everything of that sort — these ungrateful ones ; I am only 
speaking of them now. Is that what they complain of, — find- 1842 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
ing all sorts of complaints, — got into dirty water, and the Lord 
knows what? A. No, sir ; they never got into dirty water. 
Q. You never put them in, I understand ; I hope you didn’t; 
although they might he ungrateful and mistake soap for dirt. 
Now was not that what these ungrateful people complained of? 
Now, fairly, didn’t some of these bad people go away and make 
— I suppose false complaints — of the water; but they were 
complaints? A. I know they complained, but I cannot tell 
just what the}' complained about. 
Q. A good many of them complained ? These ungrateful 
people, they are always complaining? A. There are a great 
many who have gone away very grateful. 
Q. Leave out the grateful; lam after the ungrateful? A. 
I don’t remember any particular thing they have said. 
Q. I don’t ask about any particular thing. They complained 
of all manner of things, I suppose, that they ought not to, but 
still they did complain, didn’t they ? A. Some of them. 
Q. Some of them that they didn’t get good clothes ? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. That you would not be likely to know about. You 
didn’t clothe them when they went out ? A. No, sir. 
Q. So you would not be likely to know. But some complain 
of the way they were treated even in your room, as well as you 
treated them? — Now, with these ungrateful people complaining, 
why did you tell Mr. Brown you never heard any complaint? 
A. That was from the officers ; that was from Mr. and Mrs. 
Dudley and Mr. and Mrs. Barker. 
Q. All you mean is that you didn’t hear complaints from 
Mr. and Mrs. Dudley, or Mr. and Mrs. Barker? Now, were 
not the Dudleys, when they were there, considered pretty good 
people, who took pretty good care, and were not they thought 
well of? While they were there, — they have behaved pretty 
badly since, — but you know people grow worse when they go 
out of a good institution. Now, were not they pretty well 
thought of when they were there? A. I don’t know what the 
Marshes or the doctors thought of them. 
Q. You dined with them all the time ? Did you know any- 
body that didn’t think well of them? A. I have nothing 
against them. 
Q. Did you hear anything against them, then, while the}' 
were there? The}7 were thought good average people, were 
they not? A. I think they were when they were there. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1843 
Q. And that would apply to Mr. and Mrs. Barker, wouldn’t 
it, while they were there? — Answer as quickly as you can, 
because I am getting to be an old man. — Well, now, then, let us 
see if there is anything you know. Did 3 011 ever know or hear 
in an3T way that anybody was sent awa}r from that institution to 
be dissected? A. I heard there was, but I didn’t know 
whether it was true or was not. 
Q. You didn’t know whether it was true or not? Did you 
hear of that pretty soon after you went there? A. I was 
there some time before I heard it. 
Q. Did you hear that they went away in the night? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And did you hear at any time that somebody had robbed 
a grave ? Did you hear it talked about among the inmates and 
other people that somebody had been there in the night robbing 
graves? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never heard about that? A. No, sir; I never heard 
the inmates talk about it. 
Q. Did you ever hear the officers talk about it — that some- 
body had robbed some graves? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, 3tou were there during the time of this infant mor- 
tality, when seventy-one of them were sent there and died ; and 
being a kind-hearted woman, you, of course, were interested in 
them? A. That was not in my department. 
Q. How man}*infant burials did }’Ou ever attend in your life? 
A. I could not tell you. The}’ have services there Sunday 
afternoons, and sometime the minister would perform the fune- 
ral service, and we would stay through it. I never went there 
especially for that purpose. 
Q. You never saw a funeral any other time than Sunday? 
A. I never went to them. / 
Q. You never went to one except on Sunday. Did you ever 
see a funeral over an infant when its mother was not there? A. 
No, sir ; I don’t remember of any. 
Q. Were you there at the time — Oh, yes ; you covered the 
time when the blocks of wood were blessed and prayed over — 
did you hear of that at the time? A. No, sir ; I did not hear 
of it until I saw Mr. Chase’s testimony. 
Q. Did you hear of it afterwards? A. Not until I saw 
Mr. Chase’s testimony. 
Q. Did you talk it over up there? Did you talk it over with 
Mr. Cocker? A. No, sir; I don’t remember that I ever did. 1844 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You heard it discussed there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And there were some people who knew about it, wern’t 
there? A. I don’t know that anybody knew about it. 
Q. But after it came out, there were people that did know 
about it? A. I don’t know that they did. 
Q. Didn’t tlie}T say they did? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, now, did you know anything about what was done 
with all those babies that died? A. No, sir; I supposed they 
were buried. 
Q. Did you ever see their graves ? A. Yes, sir; I have 
been there. 
Q. How many of them? A. 1 could not tell you. There 
was a great number; there were a great many crosses. 
Q. What? A. There were little white crosses above their 
heads, with the name and age on the cross. That is the way I 
knew they were babies. 
Q. Now, then, did you ever attend, except on Sundays, the 
funeral of a grown person? Did you know the tailor that was 
there? A. No, sir. 
Q. You didn’t attend his funeral? A. No, sir; L didn’t 
know he was dead. 
Q. He had been there a good while, and you didn’t even find 
out that he was dead ? 
Mr. Brown. You mean Parks. 
Gov. Butler. The tailor. 
Mr. Brown. He was a tailor; but you refer to a man who 
was named Parks. 
Gov. Butler. She might not remember his name, but a 
tailor is a pretty important man in such an establishment. 
Mr. Brown. He is, to a woman. 
Q. Did you know a watchmaker there ? A. There used to 
be a gentleman in the old men’s ward that the}' said mended 
jewelry ; I don’t remember his name. 
Q. You knew him. Do you know whether he died or not? 
A. I don’t know. 
Q. Did you attend his funeral ? A. I don’t know whether 
he is dead, or whether he is in the institution. 
Q. Neither the tailor nor the watchmaker. Did you know 
this Mary Tynan ? A. Yes, sir; I have seen her there. She 
has been in the hospital a short time. 
Q. What for? A. She has been treated. She had her 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1845 
hands cut with glass, and she stayed there until they were 
healed. 
Q. Where did she get that done? A. In Boston, she said. 
Q. How lately was that? A. Some time ago; I should 
think it was within a year. 
Q. Did you and your sisters occupy the same room? A. 
Sleeping-room? 
Q. Yes. A. sister Reina and I did ; Mary and I did 
the first part of the time. At the first my sister was on the 
night-watch. My sister Sarah was there alone, I and Mary 
were there together, and Reina and I; and I have been there 
alone about two years now. 
Q. Where are your sisters now? A. Two of them are out 
West. 
Q. And the other is where? A. She is in Spencer, Mass., 
or was, the last I heard from her. 
Q. (Mr. Brown.) I understood you to say that when Mr. 
Barker showed you this pond it was before you became officially 
connected with the institution? A. No, sir ; it was after I was 
there. 
Gov. Butler. I shall have to ask another question that I 
forgot. 
Mr. Brown. I will let you finish before I go on. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What made you leave Taunton? 
A. I left Taunton with the intention of going home. 
•Q. I know you did; but what made you leave? Weren’t 
3’ou discharged? A. No, sir; I was not discharged. Dr. 
Godding and I had a misunderstanding, so I told him I should 
leave. 
Q. You were not exactly discharged, only Dr. Godding and 
you had a misunderstanding. Was not that about the way you 
treated the inmates? A. No, sir. 
Q. What was it about? A. It was the day the trustees 
were there. I had charge of the front hall and the dining-room, 
and the other one of us was to remain in the hall and fix the 
dinner for the others. I left a woman in attendance, and I was 
not out more than five minutes before I weht back into the hall; 
when I got back this woman had taken up a big settee and 
broken it in pieces. 
Q. An insane woman? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did you do to her? A. I didn’t do anything to 
her, but the doctor came down, and he thought I was to blame 1846 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
for not staying in the hall. lie said afterwards that he did not 
understand it right or he should not have said anything. 
Q. Dr. Godding? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But at an}- rate }rou left about that time? A. Yes, sir ; 
I have got a recommendation that Dr. Godding gave me. 
Q. I have no doubt. A. And a letter where he wanted to 
let me go to a friend of his. 
Q. How was it at the Massachusetts General Hospital; did 
you leave there? A. Yes, sir ; the training school were taking 
the wards there, and I thought of doing private nursing ; but my 
sister was in Tewksbury, and I thought it would be well to go 
with my sister. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You were going to say what Dr. 
Godding said he should have done if he had understood? A. 
He said to a friend of mine afterwards that if he had understood 
that it was my duty to be in the dining-hall it would have been 
different. 
Q. He found some fault? A. Yes, sir. I left it alone five 
minutes, I should think, and while I was gone the settee was 
broken. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Is this what Dr. Godding told you ? 
A. No, sir ; he told a friend of mine. 
Mr. Brown. You put it in, I think. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; she put it in. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) After you left Taunton you went to 
the Massachusetts General Hospital, or to Tewksbury ? A. I 
went to the Massachusetts General Hospital. 
Q. And stayed there four years? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And used his recommendation at the Massachusetts 
General Hospital, did you ? A. I told Dr. Shaw I would give 
him one, and he said he didn’t care for any ; I handed it out to 
him as he was saying so, and he said it was good. I have it 
here, if you would like to see it. 
Mr. Brown. I would like to see it. We might as well have 
recommendations from both Dr. Godding and Dr. DeWolf. 
[Passing to Gov. Butler the recommendation of Dr. God- 
ding.] 
Gov. Butler. There can be no objection to that. 
The Witness. I didn’t ask him for that; he gave it to me.' 
Gov. Butler. This don’t cover the point I want. 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t suppose it would. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t, either. You and I think alike. She 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1847 
has been an attendant; she is a young lady of pleasing man- 
ners, having considerably more than average ability in the care 
of patients — 
Mr. Brown. You don’t like that? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; I do. She is a good worker, and 
bears an unblemished moral character. 
Mr. Brown. You don’t like that? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, I like that perfectly well. But she is a 
little rough on the patients. 
The Witness. Yrou don’t see that there, do you? 
Gov. Butler. No ; that is not there, but it will be when we 
get the doctor. 
Mr. Brown. You don’t find anything of that kind there? 
Gov. Butler. No ; I do not. 
Mr. Brown. I will read it, and see whether the committee 
find it. [Reads.] 
“TAUNTON LUNATIC HOSPITAL. 
“ W. W. Godding, Superintendent. John Kittredge, Treasurer. 
Taunton, Mass., January 13,1872. 
“ Miss Lizzie McKinnon lias been for the year past an attendant on 
the insane in this hospital. She is a young lady of pleasing manners 
and address, having considerably more than average ability in the 
care of patients, She is a good worker, and bears an unblemished 
moral character. 
“ W. W. Godding, Supt.” 
Gov. Butler. What I objected to was, that I didn’t find she 
was amiable and kind — 
Mr. Brown. If you will just tell us what point you want 
covered, we will send for Dr. Godding and have it covered. 
Gov. Butler. Send for him. 
Mr. Brown. The next one is dated Halifax, Nova Scotia — 
Gov. Butler. By the way, I have not seen that. [Receiv- 
ing the testimonial.] 
The Chairman. Dr. Godding is in charge of the Washing- 
ton hospital. 
The Witness. He is now, but was for several years at Taun- 
ton. 
Mr. Brown. A private hospital at Washington? 
Gov. Butler. The National Hospital. 
The Chairman. For soldiers. 
Gov. Butler. St. Elizabeth? 1848 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is a public hospital; and a very good 
man, too. This [testimonial] is all right, and very good. 
Mr. Brown. Anything there that is not covered ? 
Gov. Butler, Not much. She was a young lady then — Au- 
gust 31, 1870. A very good one. [Reads.] 
“ These are to certify that Elizabeth McKinnon has been for two 
years engaged as assistant attendant at this hospital. She has proved 
herself kind and considerate, honest, industrious and deserving. She 
has our best wishes for her welfare. 
“ James R DeWolf, M. D., 
“ Superintendent. 
“ N. S. Hospital for Insane, 
“Halifax, 31st Aug., 1870.” 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Have you got the Massachusetts 
General Hospital one there? A. I have not. There are plenty 
of doctors there that know what 1 am. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You didn’t ask for any? A. No, 
sir; I can get one at any time going to see the doctors or 
nurses there. 
Gov. Butler. 1 should think you could. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, as I understand, in regard to 
Mr. Barker, he didn’t make any remark, that you recollect, in 
regard to the pool? A. No, sir ; I don’t remember only that 
he showed us the pool. 
Adjourned until Thursday, May 31, at 9.30 A. M. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1849 
FORTY-FIRST HEARING. 
Thursday, May 31. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a. m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester, in the chair. 
Testimony of Henry A. Smith (recalled) 
Q. Mr. Smith, I want to ask you some questions. Do you 
remember a colored man that you helped to lay out ? A. I 
have laid out several. I don’t know — 
Q. What? A. I have laid out several colored men. We 
have had quite a number of colored men there. 
Q. I have no doubt, but do j’ou remember one whose face 
was eaten by the rats ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You do. When was that? A. Well, it was this win- 
ter. 
Q. What? A. This winter. 
Q. What time this winter ; give us the date? A. I think it 
might have been along in January or February. 
Q. January or February this winter ? A. I could not tell 
the exact time ; it was one day this winter. 
Q. Was he one of your wards? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And where was he? How soon after his death was he 
laid out? A. It all occurred in the night when I was — 
Q. Excuse me ; answer my question, if you please. Answer 
it exactly, because you see you forgot this before. How long 
was it between the time he died and the time you laid him out? 
A. I think he died somewhere about eleven o’clock ; I won’t be 
positive about that, and I laid him out in the morning after. 
Q. He died about eleven o’clock. Where? A. It was in 
the back room. 
Q. Off from the kitchen ? A. A small room off from the 
kitchen. 
Q. What was the matter with him? A. Well, he was sick 
and insane ; troubled with his mind mostly. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler resumed. 1850 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Was he an old man? A. No, sir ; he was somewhere 
in the neighborhood of thirty odd, I think. 
Q. About thirty odd ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long had he been sick ? A. Well, I think he had 
been there about a year. I had him in both parts. 
Q. How long had he been sick? A. He had been sick all 
the time he was there. 
Q. What of? A. His troubles would be in his mind, and 
he grew feeble. 
Q. Well, he didn’t die of trouble in his mind? A. He died 
from general wasting away, I should say. 
Q. Had he been in the hospital ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long had he been in the hospital? A. Well, he 
hadn’t been in the regular hospital. He had been with me in 
the long ward, and then he was removed. I went to the short 
ward and he was removed. 
Q. He had been with 3’ou in the long ward, the old men’s 
ward? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The old men’s convalescents’ward ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he remained in the convalescents’ ward, the long 
ward, how long? A. Well, after I was taken sick,— 
Q. Leave out yourself and answer my question. How long 
was he in the long ward ? A. To the best of my memory he 
must have been there eight or nine months. 
Q. He was there eight or nine months in the convalescents’ 
long ward. Then he was removed where ? A. Removed to 
the short ward, where I am now. 
Q. How long was he in the short ward? A. He was there 
until he died ; some three months, I think. 
Q. Do you mean this little room off of the kitchen? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. How long was he in the short ward before being removed 
to the room off of the kitchen ? A. I think he was put in there 
when he came in. 
Q. When he came in from where? A. From the long 
ward. 
Q. That is, he never went into the short ward at all? A. 
I think not. I think he was removed while I was absent. I 
think he was brought in there while I was absent from the 
ward. 
Q. How long were you absent at that time? A. I was 
absent a month. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1851 
Q. A month. Last January? A. No, sir; last fall. 
Q. Then last fall he was carried into this room? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. What was the matter with him? A. I think they 
called it debility or wasting,—failing, wasting away. 
Q. . Who was there to attend to him in this place off the 
kitchen? Let us have a little description of that. A. Well, 
there was a nurse there ; we had a night nurse. 
Q. Who was the nurse? A. Well, there was a nurse 
whose duty it was to look out for both hospitals, I suppose. 
Q. Pardon me ; I am not asking about any one who had to 
look out for both hospitals. This was not a hospital, this little 
room. About how large is that room ? A. Well, it is a small 
room ; I should not think it was more than twelve by ten feet. 
Q. What was kept in that room generally ? A. Well, there 
were two beds in there ; and there was nothing kept there ex- 
cept there was a little closet there—a closet off of the room. 
Q. What was kept in that? A. Brooms, pails, etc. 
Q. It was a sort of outer kitchen, with a closet for occasion, 
and there were two beds. Anybody in either of the beds? 
A. Yes ; there was a patient in the bed at the time — in the 
other bed. 
Q. Who was that patient? A. The patient’s name is 
Carroll. 
Q. Alive or dead? A. He is alive. 
Q. Well, now, when did you learn that this man was eaten 
by the rats? A. Learned it in the morning when I came 
down. 
Q. When did you learn that he was dead ? A. I think they 
told me he died about eleven o’clock. I didn’t learn that he 
was dead until I came down in the morning. 
Q. At the same time you learned he was dead you learned 
he had been eaten? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, who was his attendant in that ward? A. I don’t 
remember ; we have had several inmates. 
Q. I know ; but failure of memory won’t help you much 
now, Mr. Smith. This was only last February. A. Well, I 
have had three or four or half a dozen since then. 
Q. I have no doubt. Any more of them eaten by rats? A. 
Never knew of any other eaten by rats. 
Q. Now, then, very well, I want to call your attention par- 1852 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
ticularly to this one. Where was he eaten? A. He was eaten 
on the face. 
Q. IIow much? A. Well, he was eaten above the eye, a 
little on the cheek and a little on the lip—the lower lip. 
Q. Now, do you know whether he was eaten while, he was 
alive or dead ? A. I cannot say, sir. I should say — 
Q. Now, then, whose duty was it to attend upon him, if it 
was not yours? A. It was the night watchman’s. 
Q. That night watchman goes all around the whole estab- 
lishment. A. No, sir ; he is in the two wards, the long ward 
and the short ward. 
Q. Well, this was neither the long nor the short ward. A. 
It was off' the short ward. 
Q. What was that night watchman’s name? A. Kittredge ; 
Mr. Kittredge was the head nurse. 
Q. No ; I want the night watchman. A. Well, he was the 
head man. 
Q. Whether he was head or tail, was he the man that had 
charge that night? A. He had charge all the time. 
Q. Did he have charge that night? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then he, if anybody, was responsible for this, was he? 
A. Yes ; I should say so. 
Q. Was he discharged or is he there now? A. He is not 
there ; I don’t know whether he is discharged. 
Q. When did he leave ? A. He left about the first of the 
month. 
Q. The first of May? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When the change came. He was there up to the time 
when the change came ; yes. Anything done to him at all? A. 
Not that I know of. 
Q. Well, now, Mr. Smith, the other da}' you told us you 
never knew of any harm coming to any of your patients? A. 
No abuse. 
Q. No abuse. You don’t call that abuse? A. It is not 
being beaten. 
Q. Pardon me; we shall come to that by and by. You 
have that. Didn’t you know of this case when you Avere sitting 
here and telling this committee your story ? A. I didn’t have 
it in my mind. 
Q. You didn’t. You had forgotten that little circumstance, 
had you? I have got to bring to your mind some other things. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1853 
Did you know Tom Alley? A. I don’t think liis name is 
Alley. I know the man ; his name is Alty. 
Q. He was an Englishman, wasn’t he ? A. He was ; yes, 
sir. 
Q. And he used to nurse in the foundling department, didn’t 
he; and do drudgery? A. Yes-, sir. 
Q. Was he a good worker? A. Yes, sir; he was a good 
man. 
Q. Now, when he was sick was he admitted to your ward, 
ward 19? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, didn’t Tom Marsh, Jr., order him out to work? 
A. Yes, sir ; he ordered him to go back to the foundling. 
Q. To work? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Didn’t Alty refuse on the ground that he was very sick 
and under the advice of the doctor? A. I don’t remember 
his making that remark ; he refused to go. 
Q. On the ground that he was sick, was it not? A. I 
could not say what the ground was. 
Q. Did you hear the conversation ? A. I did. 
Q. Now didn’t he refuse on the ground that he was sick? 
A. I don’t remember of that being mentioned. 
Q. What ground did he put his refusal on ? A. Well, he 
preferred to stay with me ; I think that was it. 
Q. Now, didn’t he say he was sick? A. I don’t remember 
that he said he was sick. 
Q. Will you swear he didn’t? A. I have no recollection 
of his saying anything about that. 
Q. You have no recollection ? Well, you won’t swear he 
didn’t; it is only a failure of memory? A. He was well re- 
covered and was helping me at the time. 
Q. Hadn’t he had the advice of the doctor? A. I think 
he had. 
Q. Now, then, didn’t Marsh and another man take hold of 
him in your presence? A. He refused to go; yes, sir; yes, 
sir. 
Q. Stop a moment. Now, you must answer these questions 
correctly, my man; I am not going to call these men over 
again, all of them. I know all about it. Now, didn’t Marsh 
and another man take hold of him? A. French Joe and 
another man did. 
Q. Didn’t Tom Marsh? A. He took hold of him at first. 1854 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Stop a moment; didn’t Tom Marsh take hold of him? 
answer that question. A. He might at the first of it. 
Q. Didn’t Tom Marsh take hold of him ? A. I think he 
did. 
Q. Don’t you know he did? A. I could not say particu- 
larly about that. 
Q. I am not asking whether you will say particularly ; don’t 
you know he did? A. I think he did. 
Q. Don’t you know he did? A. I could not swear that he 
did. 
Q. Why can’t you swear that he did? A. Because he told 
me to take hold of him. 
Q. Didn’t he take hold of him? A. 1 think he did. 
Q. Don’t 3rou know he did? Upon your oath, sir, don’t you 
know he did? A. Well, 1 think he did ; yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know he did ? A. I could not swear to it, 
sir. 
Q. Why not? A. Because it was some time ago. 
Q. How long ago was it? A. Five or six years ago. 
Q. Very well. Now, then, who took hold of him besides 
Marsh? A. He sent French Joe and Mr. Barker down to 
take him away. 
Q. Mr. who? A. Mr. Barker. 
Q. What Barker ; the man who wras on the stand? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. What was done with him? Then Tom sent for French 
Joe and Barker? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did they take hold of him and drag him? A. No, sir ; 
he went willingly; when they came he didn’t offer any resist- 
ance. 
Q. Are you quite sure? A. Yes, sir; I am sure. 
Q. He went willingly? A. Yes, sir; he didn’t offer any 
resistance. 
Q. Now, did the}” drag him along, or some of them, so as 
to tear his coat? A. I might have done so; I tried to get 
him along. 
Q. You might. Did you all three have hold of him? A. 
No, sir ; when they came — 
Q. Did you tear his coat? A. f might have done so. 
Q. I know you might have done so ; 1 understand that per- 
fectly. You might have torn his head off. Now, did you tear 
his coat? A. His coat was torn. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1855 
Q. Well, I know; who tore it? He went willingly, but his 
cont got torn. A. I think I might have torn it. I think very 
likely I tore it. I tried to pull him along. 
Q. Who was trying to pull him when you were trying? A. 
Well, I think Mr. Marsh took hold of him. 
Q. Mr. Marsh was pulling at the same time with you? A. 
He didn’t pull much. 
Q. He didn’t pull much, but his coat was torn. [Applause.] 
A. He went immediately. 
[The chairman ordered the doorkeeper to take notice of those 
applauding, and to remove them upon repetition of such demon- 
stration.] 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I didn’t hear you, sir? A. He 
went immediately, and sent this Mr. Barker and French Joe 
down. 
Q. Was his coat torn before Barker and French Joe were 
sent for? A. I think it was. It was an old coat; it was a 
rotten coat. 
Q. Was it torn before Barker and French Joe were sent for? 
A. It must have been, because he didn’t offer any resistance. 
Q. After they came ? A. No, sir. 
Q. He did offer resistance before ? A. He did. 
Q. How long did you hold on to him before you tore his 
coat? A. I didn’t hold him; he was as strong a man as I 
was. 
Q. I know; but you had Tom to help you? A. Just 
took hold of him, and when he found that he was not ready to 
go he sent for assistance. 
Q. Who? A. Thomas. 
Q. Tom ; he went and sent these men. Well, now, then, 
did you lock him up? Was he locked up in the insane build- 
ing? A. He was not locked up in a cell. 
Q. What? A. He was not put into a cell, he told me. 
Q. Leave out what he told you. Was he locked up in the 
insane building? A. I didn’t see him. 
Q. Don’t }Tou know whether one of your patients was locked 
up iu the insane building? A. He was put in the insane 
building. 
Q. And the door locked, was it not? A. Not in a cell. 
Q. Who else was in the insane building? A. Mr. Barker 
had charge of it, 1856 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Whereabouts was he put in the insane building? Was 
anybody else in it? A- I could not say, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know that it was an empty room where he was 
put? A. No, sir; I don’t. 
Q. Do 3*011 know whether it was or not? A. I suppose 
there was not any one else in it. 
Q. Don’t you know? A. There would not be more than 
one in at a time. If he was locked up at all I should think he 
would be locked up alone. 
Q. Now, wasn’t he kept on bread and water there? A. 
1 don’t know what he was kept on. 
Q. Pardon me ; he was one of your patients, sir ; did 3*ou 
allow him to be there without any attention? A. I didn’t at- 
tend to him ; Mr. Barker attended to him. 
Q. Now, then, shortly after was he sent to England? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want to ask you, didn’t he complain of that treat- 
ment? IIow long was he kept there, locked up? A. He said 
they didn’t put him in a cell. 
Q. I don’t ask that? A. He was in there from one — not 
over two days, 1 think. He was in there until he promised Mr. 
Marsh he would go back to the foundling. 
Q. He was in there until he promised Mr. Marsh he would 
go back to the foundling? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he have any doctor while he was there? A. I can- 
not say as to that. 
Q. Did he come back to your room after that? A. No, 
sir ; he went to the foundling. 
Q. Did you ever talk with him about it? A. I merely talked 
with him so mifch as his telling me — I remember his saying 
that they didn’t put him into a cell. 
Q. You remember that. Well, did he like that treatment; 
do you know whether he complained about it? A. He didn’t 
much complaint about it. 
Q. I know. Did he complain about it? A. He didn’t 
like it. 
Q. Didn’t he complain about it? A. Not very much, I 
don’t think. 
Q. But did he complain? A. I think he did ; yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t }*ou know he did ? A. Yes, sir ; he complained. 
Q. Complained of the treatment? A. That he didn’t like 
to be locked up. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1857 
Q. Now, then, 3*011 didn’t tell the truth the other da}T when 
you told us you hadn’t heard of any complaint of ill-treatment 
by* anybody ? A. If you call that ill-treatment. He refused 
to work. 
Q. I know he refused to work ; but I mean whether he com- 
plained rightly' or wrongly. Now, sir, you won’t swear that he 
was not sick? A. I said he was sick when he first came 
into the hospital. 
Q. By hospital you mean — what was the matter with him? 
A. If I remember right, I think it was some trouble with 
his heart; a heart disease, or something of that kind. 
Q. Now, you have already told me that up to that time lie 
had been a faithful worker in the foundling hospital? A. I 
believe he had given good satisfaction. 
Q. Now, let us try another. Do you remember John Con- 
nell? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. From Easthampton? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he was suffering with paralysis? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In his lower limbs? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And paralysis of the bladder ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That was so, was it not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that paralysis caused detention of the urine? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, that detention rendered necessary' the use of 
a catheter? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And don’t you know that he was neglected by' Dr. Lath- 
rop for a long time ? A. Most of the time — 
Q. Excuse me ; answer my question. You must tell the 
truth now. A. I don’t know that he was neglected by me, 
and he always had good attention as far as I know. 
Q. Stop a minute. Don’t you know that there was — or 
first, that the doctor said he would furnish him with a catheter, 
and then didn’t? Now, I am going to ask something to your 
credit? A. He was not with me all the time. 
Q. I know he was not with you all the time, but I am going 
to follow it right up. And, being neglected, didn’t you yourself 
go and call on the doctor to come to his aid ? Didn’t you your- 
self go to the doctor to come to his aid ? A. I don’t remem- 
ber anyr particular circumstance. 
Q. Do you remember you did? A. No, sir; I don’t re- 
member any particular time that I did. 
Q. I don’t ask any particular time ; don’t you remember of 1858 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
doing it, sir ? A. When the doctor came I called his atten- 
tion to it. 
Q. Pardon me ; didn’t you go to him? And not only that 
he didn’t come ; but didn’t he neglect him for a day and a night 
after that? Now, no lying, if you please. On your oath, sir* 
We have been bothered enough here with you. Out with it? 
A. I don’t remember that fact. 
Q. Do you mean to sajr that was not the fact? A. It is 
so long ago my memory don’t serve me. It was five or six 
years ago. 
Q. Think a moment where you are, Mr. Smith. Here was a 
person suffering with detention of the urine, and you went for 
the doctor; and he lay there suffering for a day and a night, in 
your care ; and you forget such a circumstance as that, sir. Do 
you mean to swear to that? The most horrible pains. Did 
you forget that? A. I did; I don’t remember the circum- 
stances about it. I remember his being there ; I don’t remem- 
ber the circumstance. 
Q. You don’t remember that circumstance ? A. No, sir. 
Q. You remember going to the doctor, don’t you? A. I 
don’t. 
Q. Do you remember his suffering there? A. I remember 
he suffered. lie suffered quite considerably for a time. 
Q. Well, for days; for a day and a night? A. He was 
suffering most of the time he was there. 
Q. I know he was ; but don’t }'ou know he was suffering from 
detention of the urine for a day and a night? I don’t ask the 
particular time ; but do you remember about that? A. No, 
sir ; I do not. 
Q. Did he complain? A. Yes, sir; he often complained. 
Q. Complain of that treatment? Didn’t he complain that the 
doctor neglected him ; whether he did or not? A. I think he 
might. 
Q. Might? I know he might. I should think he might do 
both. But didn’t he, old man? Didn’t he complain of that 
treatment? Answer that question. A. He complained of his 
treatment; yes, sir. 
Q. Then here is another man who has complained. What 
did you mean by swearing the other day that there was not 
anybody who complained of any cruelty ? Is there any worse 
cruelty on earth than to keep a man in that condition? Now, 
gir, I want to put it where there is a thing you cannot forget, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1859 
and you must answer upon your peril, because I am not going 
to be played with too much. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Smith, you need not be at all frightened, 
there isn’t anybody going to be intimidated here, either b}T acts, 
or words, or looks, as long as I am counsel here. 
Gov. Butler. The chairman will stop me when he thinks I 
am treating the witness too severely. 
The Chairman. I think the witness has control of himself 
apparently. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Well, now, then, will 3rou now 
swear that more than ten times you haven’t seen four or five or 
more people bathed in the same water up there near French 
Joe’s office? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. More than three? A. I have only recollection of one 
time when there was more than one. I have no remembrance 
of any other time. 
Q. Will you swear it was not so? A. I would not swear, 
but that is the only time I remember. 
Q. Now, was Tom Marsh chairman of the Republican town 
committee in your town ? A. He took an interest in politics. 
Q. I know; wasn’t he chairman of the town committee? 
A. He might have been. 
Q. Don’t 3'ou know ? A. No, sir ; I never took much in- 
terest in politics. 
Q. Do 3rou know at an3’ time whether, when a political meet- 
ing was held there, when Gov. Long spoke, in 1879 —? A. I 
didn’t attend that meeting; I knew of his being there. 
Q. He stayed there all night, didn’t he? A. I would not 
swear that he did. 
Q. Didn’t a number of the paupers attend, or start to go? 
A. I didn’t attend it at all; the3r might. 
Q. Don’t you know the3T started to go down, in 3rour ward, 
the convalescent ward? A. The3T often went, when the3T wanted 
to. 
Q. Did the3’go that night? A. They did; a number of 
them. 
Q. Well, now, let us see how it was. Were there carriages 
to carry? A. Carriages to carry the inmates? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir; I don’t think there were. 
Q. Vehicles ? A. The3r went afoot; the inmates did, any- 
way. 1860 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Now, then, you were not at that meeting? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. About a week after that you had a meeting, when Col. 
Brewster spoke in that town? A. I was there. 
Q. You was? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Any inmates there then? A. I think there were some ; 
yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know that the gates were closed and that they 
were ordered in-doors? A. I didn’t hear of it. 
Q. What? A. I didn’t hear of it. 
Q. Do you know John Burns? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was he an attendant there? A. He was and is; yes, 
sir. 
Q. Do you know of his helping put up the flag? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Working on the wire? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was he in your ward? A. He has a ward of his own. 
Q. Had he then? A. Yes, sir ; he always has. 
Q. Now, did you know Daniel Butcher, a colored man? A. 
I don’t remember the name. 
Q. What? A. I don’t remember a colored man of that 
name. I suppose if he was there I knew him. 
Q. Don’t you know Mr. Rollins, who is one of the nurses ? 
A. Yes, sir ; I know Rollins. 
Q. Don’t you know that Rollins was called to see that col- 
ored man? A. Where was he called, sir? 
Q. When he laid on the ground sick for some eight hours. 
A. No, sir; I have no remembrance of that, sir. 
Q. Do you remember the man that lay sick there? A. No, 
I do not; I don’t recollect anything of that kind now. 
Q. Won’t you think about it? A. Where was it, sir; in 
the hospital? was he on the grounds? 
Q. On the ground. He laid out-doors. A. I don’t recall 
it, sir, at all. 
Q. And then was taken into the hospital and died? A. I 
don’t recollect the part}" at all. 
Q. Do you recall the fact of that happening to any man? 
A. No, sir ; 1 don’t recall any party. 
Q. Do you remember Sullivan Burke, a man with one leg? 
A. I don’t remember him. 
Q. Have you ever seen the doctors in the hospital with their 
overcoats on? A. I have seen them pass through ; yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1861 
Q. Often? A. Well, they frequently passed through in 
my ward on the way to the dispensary. When it rained they 
would pass through the long ward and go into the dispensary. 
Q. Now, sir, was it not cold there? Were not the men com- 
plaining of cold? A. The ward was always kept warm and 
comfortable. 
Q. No doubt it was ; but didn’t men complain of cold? A. 
They might in the early part of the season, before the fires were 
built and the steam was kept on. 
Q. Did they? I don’t ask what they might do. A. They 
might. 
Q. But tell me whether they did. A. Yes, sir; they did, 
in the early part of the season, before fires were put on. 
Q. What time was the fire put on? A. I think steam 
would not be put on until late in November. 
Q. In any part of the building? A. No, sir ; I don’t think 
steam would be put on before that; that is, constantly. It 
would be put on and then shut off. 
Q. And it was at this time that the doctors were walking 
through with their overcoats on, was it? A. If it was in the 
fall of the year they would be likely to have them on if they 
came in to visit. 
Q. Well, did they ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well; did the inmates have their overcoats on? A. 
No, sir. Some of them had them, and if they wanted to put 
them on they could. 
Q. And some of them had not? A. No, sir. 
Q. And that was the same in the hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then, here were these sick people, at the last of No- 
vember, without any fire? A. Steam would not be kept on. 
Q. Well, steam. A. Yes, sir; sometimes it would be a 
little cold there. 
Q. I should think it would be. A. The steam would be 
put on for half an hour, perhaps, two or three times a day, and 
then shut off. 
Q. But it was not put on until the end of November? A. 
It would not be on constantly. 
Q. That would make it all the worse, wouldn’t it? You 
would get heated up and then cooled off, and then heated up 
again? A. Yes, sir; it was no improvement. 
Q. Now, let me see if I cannot call your attention to another 1862 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
little circumstance. Did you know James Duffee? A. I don’t 
remember that name, sir. 
Q. Didn’t ever remember his name ? A. No, sir. 
Q. I will try to call to your mind a little circumstance about 
him. Didn’t he die, frozen to death, on the chapel steps, one 
cold night? A. I don’t remember to have heard of it. 
Q. Didn’t hear of it, even? A. I don’t remember it now. 
Q. Have you ever remembered it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Why do you put in “ now”? A. What I mean is, that 
I have no recollection about it. 
Q. Is there any man that you have heard of? Because, you 
have told us how well everything was carried on. Did you ever 
hear of a man being frozen to death on the chapel steps? A. 
1 never did, to my remembrance. 
Q. Will you. swear that no such thing occurred? A. I 
would not swear, but I don’t remember of hearing about it my- 
self. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Something was said about using a State carriage to carry 
speakers up to Tewksbury Centre to a political meeting. A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. You were asked something about the carriage I rode in, 
and I think you were in the same carriage. Do you know any- 
thing about whose carriage it was? 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; it was not the one you rode in ; it was 
in Governor Long’s time I asked about. 
Mr. Brown. You laughed, and thought you had got me riding 
around in a piece of State property. 
Gov. Butler. Not at all. I don’t think it is of a copper’s 
consequence whether you were or not. It was Long I was after. 
Mr. Brown. But the town went against you. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. The town went against you. 
Gov. Butler. I should think after such an exhibition it 
would be likely to. 
Mr. Brown. Then L am of a copper’s consequence. 
The Chairman. You admit, Governor, that the town went 
against you. 
G-ov. Butler. I should think it might; I should think it 
would. 
Q. Now, you say you went to hear Col. Brewster ; who was 
he? A. A man advocating Gen. Butler’s cause. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1863 
Q. A good many paupers went that night? A. I think 
there were some. 
The Chairman. Who was it? 
Mr. Brown. Col. A. O. Brewster. 
The Chairman. I thought it was Col. Bruce, and that we 
had got to investigate him. 
Gov. Butler. No need for investigating him. 
Q. I want to ask you about this man Alty. Did you hear 
the name Alty used in any language of Ilis Excellency, the gov- 
ernor, the other day, when you were on cross-examination? A. 
No, sir. The name Alley was used, but I don’t think he spoke 
the name of Alty. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t know it at that time. 
Q. Now, when this man Alty was ordered to go back to the 
foundling hospital to duty, in your judgment had he recovered? 
A. Yes, sir ; he was recovered. He was helping me take 
charge of my lower room ; that is, assisting me. 
Q. And he had been on duty how many days before he was 
directed to go back? A. He had been on duty a month, cer- 
tainly. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) In your ward? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) And he w'as perfectly well as he had 
been at any time, to your knowledge? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He was directed to go back to the foundling hospital and 
do work there, and refused? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you see any force used upon him more than was 
necessary, simply to get him along? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was the man injured in any way? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did 3-011, after he came from confinement, have any con- 
versation with him? A. Yes; he spoke about it He. used 
to come in ; he used to make No. 19 his stopping place. 
Q. What did he say ? A. He said that he was not put in a 
cell; that Marsh simply sent him over there, but didn’t put him 
in a cell. 
Q. Did he complain that during the period of his confine- 
ment he hadn’t had food enough? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did he complain that he had been hurt, bruised, or any- 
thing of that kind? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear the suggestion that he had there been 
kept upon short allowance of food, or had been injured in any way 
bodily ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Who is this Mr. Ivittredge? How long had he been 1864 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
there? A. I think he went there last summer some time. He 
was on the farm when he first went there, and was put into the 
hospital as night nurse. 
Q. Where is he now? A. I could not say where he is. 
Q. When did he leave the institution? A He left the first 
of May, I think. 
Q. This present month? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know where he went to? A. I do not. 
Q. Then you say that he was the watchman who had charge 
of this room upon the night when this man died? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was this room used as a part of the regular portion of 
the hospital? A. It was used to put in bad cases, where the}r 
were insane, or parties that were not fit to be in the main ward. 
Q. Why not fit to be in the main ward ? A. Because they 
were insane, and getting up constantly, and were not clean. 
Q. They paid no regard to the proprieties of life ; is.that the 
fact? A. Yes, sir; they had lost their minds. 
Q. And they had to be kept separate from the other patients ? 
A. Yes, sir; that room was convenient for putting them in. 
Q. Now, this man from Northampton — 
Gov. Butler. Easthampton. 
Q. Easthampton — What was his name? A. His name is 
John Connell. 
Q. Now, what was the fact in regard to him, as far as you 
know anything about it? A. The fact was that he wras trou- 
bled with his bladder, and he was a very troublesome patient; 
a man that made considerable trouble. 
Q. Now, did you ever know, at any time while he was there, 
afflicted with that disorder, that he unnecessarily suffered pain 
from any lack of attention on the doctor’s part to perform his 
duty? A. I never knew of the doctor’s refusing to come to 
see him when I went for him. 
Q. Did you ever know him to suffer unnecessary' on 
account of the neglect of the doctor? A. He had appliances 
that he could use. 
Q. You could use them yourself? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Could he use them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, was there an appliance by his side, within his 
reach, which he could use himself? A. Yes, sir; he could use 
it any time that he called for it. He usually used it twice a 
day. 
Q. And could use it oftener? A. Any time he wanted it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1865 
I think he kept it with him so he could use it any time he wished. 
It was in a closet there, and I think he could get it if he wished 
it. 
Q. Was it necessary that the doctor should be present in 
order that the appliance should be used ? A. No, sir. 
Q. And, as a matter of fact, while he was there, was the 
doctor always present when it was used? A. No, sir; scarce 
ever. 
Q. About what degree Fahrenheit did you keep that hospital ? 
A. Well, the hospital he never was in. 
Q. I mean the room you spoke of, where the governor 
asked about the doctors coming in in their overcoats? A. 
That was in the old block ; it was heated by stoves. It was pretty 
hard to keep it warm in very cold weather. They had two 
stoves in each room, but the building was old, and the wind 
used to blow through pretty freely when it was cold. 
Q. Take either of these hospitals, where you sa}T you didn’t 
fire up until some time in November, at what temperature did 
you intend to keep those rooms? A. They were kept up to 70 
or 80 ; usually it wTas almost too warm, after steam was put in. 
They were kept up — I don’t think it fell below G5, and I think 
the}7 were usually above that. 
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I will ask you this : has there been any 
time, since you have been in that institution, when you have 
reason to believe that any of your patients suffered from the 
cold — that is, those patients in the hospital? A. No, sir; I 
don’t think there was any suffering of any amount. 
Q. Well, when you speak of a patient complaining of the 
cold, do you mean that the patient simply called your attention 
to the fact that he was cold? A. Yes, sir ; that is all. There 
are men that complain now. I have got one man that complains 
now of the cold, at this time, when it will be probably 70. His 
blood is very poor, and he complains of being cold. 
Q. What is his name? A. Wentworth. 
Q. What is his full name? A. Arnold Wentworth. 
Q. Was he there last summer? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he complain all last summer? A. Yes, sir. He 
didn’t, complain last summer so much as he has this. His health 
is very poor, and he complains very often. And a great many 
of these people complain. They want the windows shut up in 
July — nights. 
Q. Have you made any examination to see whether he is 1866 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
cold? Do you know what the temperature of his body is? A. 
Well, his blood, I should say, was very poor — not much blood. 
Q. Have you made any examination to find out what was 
the temperature of his body? A. No, sir; no more than I 
know his case, that he is very feeble, and is not able to do a 
great deal. He is very weak and feeble. 
Mr. Brown. I believe that is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) 1 want to ask you about this matter 
— at tire time before the last of November, when the steam was 
put on, if there was a pretty general complaint of being cold at 
times? A. There would be some days when they would com- 
plain of being cold. 
Q. I mean a general complaint? A. They would complain 
of its being rather cold. 
Q. I don’t mean one man, wdiose blood was poor, but a 
general complaint? A. Yes, sir; there was complaint. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) When you say complaint, do you 
mean anything more than to call your attention to the fact that 
the room was cold? A. It would be a little cold at some times. 
It might be a day, if it came on a cold day ; if it was a cold 
day, it would be cold there. 
14. Now, did you have plenty of bed clothing that you could 
use in such cases? A. Yes, sir; always well provided with 
blankets. 
Q. No lack of blankets? A. No, sir. 
Q. One question I omitted to ask you, but which I meant 
to ask you when you were on the stand in the first instance, and 
that is this. Is there any means that you know of there in the 
institution, for punishing the inmates in cases where the}' are 
refractory? A. There is not any now ; they used to put them 
in the cells, I believe, several years ago, but there is nothing 
there now. There is no punishment there now. 
Q. Since you have been there, do you know what has been 
the common punishment resorted to where discipline was needed ? 
A. When I formerly went there the}' used cells. 
Q. Well, since that? A. Since that the cells have been 
entirely done away with, and there has been no punishment. 
The only punishment was to send them out of the gate. 
Q. What do you mean by that ? A. Discharge them. 
Q. Discharge them from the institution? A. Yes, sir; if 
they are refractory. 
Q.. Well, sir, how many years has that been the punishment 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1867 
resorted to in cases where discipline was required, — discharged 
from the institution ? A. I don’t know that it has happened 
in but a very few cases ; but I think they have power to do it — 
I have heard so. 
Q. What cases have you known, if any ? A. I have known 
cases where there were parties who refused to work, and they 
were sent out the gate. 
Q. That is, discharged. A. Yes, sir; 
Q. Did they usually come to time and go to work? A. 
Yes, sir ; there was no trouble there. Everything goes on very 
quietly for a place of that kind. There didn’t seem to be a 
great deal, — there was not a great deal of discipline. That is, 
Capt. Marsh was always very easy with every one, and they all 
seemed to go on surprised themselves to see how regularly 
everything went on ; to see that he used so little authorit}7. 
What I mean is, that he let every one go about as they were a 
mind to. 
Q. He exercised very little authority over them? A. No, 
sir ; it didn’t seem to be required. The men seemed to act very 
harmoniously. 
Q. Where were those cells that you speak of? A. I think 
they were under the back part of the office — Capt. Marsh’s of- 
fice. 
Mr. Brown. I believe that is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I want to ask you a single question. 
This was generally, was it, that he exercised very little authori- 
ty? A. What I mean b}7 that is, that he was not around com- 
plaining or finding fault, but if there was necessity for exercis- 
ing authority, he could be stern enough ; but there didn’t seem 
to be any occasion for it. 
Q. No ; it was all so right that there was no occasion for it. 
As a rule, when they discharged people for not going to work, 
did they tear their coats beforehand? A. No, sir. 
Q. There were cells at this time to put them in? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Because you say this man, Alty, said that he was not 
put in a cell ? A. There were cells at the insane building, but 
the other cells had been taken away. 
A. And there have always been cells at the insane building, 
and are now ? A. I think there has. 
Q. Didn’t Alty tell you that he was fed on bread and water? 1868 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
A. I don’t think he told me that; I presume he might have 
been. 
Q. Don’t you know it was so? A. It was usually the case. 
I understand that when they were p ut in cells they were fed on 
bread and water. 
Q. When they were locked up they were fed on bread and 
water. What did you mean ; why did you answer Mr. Brown 
that he didn’t complain that he had not sufficient food? You 
merely meant that he had sufficient bread and water? A. 
Well, yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That will do. 
Q. (By Mr. Chamberlain.) You say that if a man refused 
to work, they would tell him to walk out of the gate? A. 1 
have understood they had the power to do that. 
Q. Wall, didn’t he have the power to walk out the gate if 
he chose? Could’nt he walk right out? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) There is no keeping them in, or 
anything of the sort? A. No, sir; they could run out if they 
wanted to. 
Q. Of course. But they had a man at the gate that didn’t 
allow them to go ? They only had a man at the gate to keep 
them from getting out? A. They used to go out if they 
wished to. 
Testimony of Daniei. N. Barrett (sworn). 
Q. What is your full name ? A. Daniel N. Barrett. 
Q. How old are ? A. Forty-nine. 
Q. What is your present occupation? A. Baker at the 
Tewksbury almshouse. 
Q. How long have you been baker at the Tewksbur}' alms- 
house? A. Seven years to-morrow, the first of June. 
Q. Who preceded you in that duty? A. A person by the 
name of Holt. 
Q. I believe 37ou have been a member of the legislature, 
Mr. Barrett, haven’t 3rou? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many years ago was that? A. In 1870 and ’71. 
The Chairman. Is that a recommendation ? 
Mr. Brown. It used to be ; it isn’t this year. 
Q. In 1871. Where from? A. Lynn. 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1869 
Q. On last Friday the legislature visited this institution, 
didn’t the}'? A. Yes, sir; quite a number of them. 
Q. They partook pretty liberally of your bread, didn’t 
they? A. I heard so. 
Q. How old was that bread that they took? A. Forty- 
eight hours old ; it was baked on the Wednesday previous. 
Q. It came out on Wednesday; about what time of day? 
A. Well, they had both white bread and graham bread; the 
white was drawn at about ten o’clock in the forenoon, and the 
graham somewhere between one and two. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) On Wednesday? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) It was used on Friday. Have you 
any rule as to the age of the bread before it is served to the 
inmates? A. 1 am instructed to have about two days’ bread 
on hand. 
Q. Now, as a matter of fact, do they use the bread which 
is two days old? A. Yes, sir; that is the rule, as 1 under- 
stand it. 
Q. Mr. Barrett, tell thq committee whether that bread, 
which the legislators ate last Friday, was a fair sample of the 
bread that you have been making during these last seven years. 
A. I don’t see how it can be otherwise. It was baked from 
Hour, a great deal of which I have used for a number of years, 
and by the same methods, as far as I know. I don’t know of 
any difference. I should say it was an average of the bread I 
had baked there for seven years, — five or six years, anyhow. 
Q. Now, I want you to tell the committee how that bread 
was made. A. You mean the ingredients? 
Q. Well, I mean the apparatus that you had to use and the 
process that you go through in order to make that bread. 
A. Well, I set a sponge first, of yeast and hour — 
Q. What do you use for yeast? A. I have, as all bakers 
have, what is called stock yeast, of hops, hour, malt and water, 
and a ferment of potatoes, hour and water that is set to work 
with this stock yeast. When the sponge is ready, in baker’s 
parlance, more water is added and more hour, and it is made 
up into dough. After proving, it is panned off and put into 
the oven to bake. 
Q. Baked in what kind of an oven? A. An old-fashioned 
baker’s oven, bricked up by bricks inside,— an old style of 
oven. 1870 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You also manufacture at the institution your own 
crackers? A. Yes; bake crackers every Thursday. 
Q. Every Thursday bake a week’s supply ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Barrett, as to the quality of the flour that you 
use for the bread of the inmates, — what do you say about that? 
A. The flour that I use chiefly is a very sweet Minnesota flour, 
darker than families like to use, in many respects, as to color, 
but very good flour ; makes very sweet bread. 
Q. Now, Mr. Barrett, how frequently, since you have been 
there, have you had the misfortune to have your bread sour, or 
something of that kind? A. I don’t remember of but three 
times. That was within the first year, the first and second years 
of nry being there. Some obstacles to baking there that I didn’t 
get thoroughly the hang of. 
Q. Now, take the bread in summer-time ; can you keep it 
forty-eight hours without its getting sour? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Any difficulty about that? A. No difficulty if it is kept 
in a clean place ; no, sir. 
Gov. Butler. If it is sweet tq begin with. 
Q. If it is sweet to begin with. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, after the bread comes out of the oven what is 
done with it? A. It is put on a rack in the bakehouse, put 
there till it gets, — fresh bread is soft, and if handled then is 
apt to get jammed. We keep it on this rack till it cools and 
dries sufficiently to enable it to be handled without injury ; 
then it is carried into what is called the bread-room and put 
on another rack, from which it is taken to be cut up when 
necessary. 
Q. From the bread-room it is cut and served to the inmates? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Whether or not, within your knowledge, Captain Marsh 
and his family and the officers eat this bread? A. If they 
I should not be likely to know of it. I should not know if they 
had it on the superintendent’s table unless I heard of it. I saw 
it occasionally on the table at which I sat. 
Q. That is, the officers’ table ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where the attendants and nurses sat? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How generally is the graham bread used there at your 
table? A. I don’t know, I am sure. I see it occasionally. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1871 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. I want to get a few figures from you, Mr. Barrett, which 
I suppose you can give me. In the first place, take a barrel of 
flour, — one hundred and ninety-six pounds of good flour, — 
how many pounds of bread will you get from such a barrel of 
flour? A. Well, 1 would say that flour varies a great deal, 
according to the quality. 
Q. Such quality as you use. A. 1 haven’t tested it re- 
cently. I did when I first commenced on it, and, perhaps, occa*- 
sionally. It is somewhere, — from a barrel of flour we would 
get two hundred and seventy-five to eighty pounds of bread. 
Q. About thirty-three per cent, increase, isn’t it? A; 
Wouldn’t that be nearly three hundred pounds to a barrel? 
Q. Pretty near!}’, sir. A. I never knew but one brand of 
flour that would do that. 
Q. There is a brand of flour that will do that? A. Yes; 
I knew of one. 
Q. That is increase of weight by — A. It was remarkable. 
Q. Yes; it was remarkable; but that is the increase of 
weight by the absorption of the moisture, I suppose? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. That is owing to the glutinous character of the flour? 
A. I don’t pretend to understand chemistry, but I suppose so, 
— if it was superior wheat, of course. 
Q. Now, isn’t it one of the peculiarities of Minnesota flour 
that it is thus glutinous? A. Yes, sir ; that is my judgment. 
Q. That is your judgment, and I so understand. Then we 
have got about one-third, — thirty per cent., T believe, would be 
the point at which — A. I would put it a little lower than 
that, in mv experience. 
Q. A little lower ; but still it might be. Is there a greater 
increase in graham flour than in the common wheat flour ? A. 
I never tested graham flour, sir. In making graham bread I 
don’t use a great deal of graham, and never tested it. My 
opinion would be that it is much less than other flours. 
Q. Much less? A. That is my opinion. 
Q. Very well; now, then, we will get from a barrel of flour, 
you think, about how many pounds of bread? A. Two hun- 
dred and seventy-five to eighty. 
Q. Two hundred and seventy-five per barrel. Will you tell 1872 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
me how many barrels of flour you use a day? A. Well, I vary 
a good deal ; just now, do you mean? 
Q. I want to know, in the first place, how many barrels you 
used that Wednesday when you got out this batch of bread? 
A. That was a week ago or so ; well, just about, — you see I 
don’t remember with regard to a particular day, but I know for 
several weeks past — 
Q. Won’t you try to keep your mind, if you will, on the 
time when the bread was baked which the legislators eat, be- 
cause I want them to know exactly about how much flour was 
used that day. I don’t care what was done before nor after- 
wards, now; I am now at that time that 3rou see is not a week 
ago, —yes, yes; a week ago yesterday, exactly. A. I can’t 
testify especially with regard to that day any more than any 
other. I am using about thirty-four barrels a week, and bake 
that in five days. 
Q. Five days. A. No, sir; take out a barrel and a half for 
crackers, and perhaps sixteen pounds which is used in the cook- 
room, and the rest is baked in five days. 
Q. In five days ; you use thirty-four barrels a week ? A. 
That includes a barrel and a half for crackers. 
Q. I understand ; but I suppose they eat the crackers, don’t 
they? A. I think likely. 
Q. So it goes just as much toward feeding them? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And sixteen pounds of flour used where? A. Used in 
the cook-kitchen ; they average that. 
Q. What kitchen is that? A. That is the inmates’cook- 
kitchen ; for thickening soup and making sauce to put on rice, 
and, perhaps, some other things. 
Q. Sixteen pounds a day ; but that still goes for food ? A. 
Oh, yes, sir; goes for food. 
Q. Now, then, you would have thirty-four barrels for seven 
days ; you wouldn’t have quite five barrels a day, would 3011? 
A. No, sir ; not for seven da3's. 
Q. Is that your average, sir? A. For a year? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. Is it more or less than the average? A. Well, I could 
not swear to just how much flour is used in a 3’ear, but my expe- 
rience, from my experience I should judge that I average just 
about, with what the3T use in the cook-kitchen, five barrels a 
day the year round ; I mean to say working days. 1883.j 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1873 
Q. Five working days? A. No, six working days ; that 
would be my judgment. 
Q. You average about five barrels a day ; do you use more 
in the winter or less? A. Very much more in winter. 
Q. You are using now, you tell me, about thirty-four; how 
very much more in the winter? A. Well, thirty-six or seven 
barrels I should say. 
Q. What? A. Thirty-six or seven barrels, for, perhaps, 
three months in the winter. 
Q. Three months in the winter, thirty-six or seven barrels a 
week? A. Yes, sir. I can’t give it exactly, for I have not 
kept any figures ; that is pretty near. 
Q. Now, then, that is what I want to know, if you know. 
Do you keep any account of the flour? A. No, sir. 
Q. Does anybody else, to your knowledge? A. Not to my 
knowledge ; no, sir ; not to my knowledge. 
Q. Well, have you ever seen any account of it; I don’t mean 
of the buying in, but of the going out? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then here we have an institution without any means of 
telling how much flour it takes, —from any account. A. Well, 
I keep none ; I can’t say what the superintendent does. 
Q. Well, I say, so far as you know. A. So far as I know ; 
no, sir. 
Q. You don’t keep an account, and there is nobody keeps an 
account so far as you know. If you want ten barrels of flour, 
or five barrels of flour, you go and get it, or send somebody for 
it? A. Exactly. 
Q,. If you want six, you get it just as well? A. Yes, ex- 
actly. 
Q. Or eight, or any other number ? Now, does Capt. Marsh 
use the same flour in his establishment that you do ? A. They 
sometimes do ; they have been all this year, perhaps longer. 
There have been times when they have bought higher price 
flour. 
Q. And sometimes they buy higher price flour? A. Yes, 
sir ; perhaps usually. 
Q. Well, what use is in addition to yours, I suppose? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know how many barrels a week they use ? A. 
If you call it sixty it won’t be two barrels out of the way ; sixty 
barrels a year. 1874 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And they use, in addition, about sixty barrels a year in 
Capt. Marsh’s kitchen? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. We find on the bills there is some higher price flour. A. 
That is for the kitchen. 
Q. Is that used on what is called the officers’ table? A. 
When they have it; yes, sir; there has been none of that kind 
since last fall. 
Q. Pardon me ; I misled you, and didn’t mean to, either. I 
wanted to ask you this, exactly ; whether that sixty barrels a 
year, — whether it was the same that you used, or higher price 
flour, — whether that furnished the officers’dining-table? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. The otticers don’t vary with the inmates, of course ; that 
is to say, you have a great many more inmates in the winter 
than summer, but the number of officers does not vary? A. I 
suppose not. 
Q. About the same ; about sixty barrels a year. Then, in 
addition, there is still a barrel a week more. A. For what, 
please ? 
Q. For the officers, in addition to the inmates, — a little 
over a barrel more. A. Yes, sir; about a barrel in six days 
they use. 
Q. Do you do this work yourself, all of it? A. Baking? 
Q. Yes. A. Have inmate help. 
Q. How many inmates have you for help? A I have 
three, such as they are, now, and want more. 
Q. Yes. A. There are some cripples, insane, etc. 
Q. You have an insufficiency of help? A. I have just now ; 
just now ; apt to in the spring of the year; they keep going 
out. 
Q. Do you do the kneading of the bread? A. 1 help. 
Q. You help ; do you doit? A. I do it with the help of 
the inmates. 
Q. I want to know whether your arms go into the knead- 
ing? A. Yes, sir ; I get right up and go at it. 
Q. Always and all the time? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. How much of the time do you knead the bread? A. 
Well, I could not say, but there are some months at a time 
when I am short of help; when I get help enough 1 don’t 
actually knead it in the trough ; I handle it afterwards ; handle 
the dough a great deal, but not in the trough. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1875 
Q. And upon the kneading and the j’east-making depends 
the quality of the bread, doesn’t it? A. Well, —oh, of course, 
somewhat. 
Q. Assuming the same flour. A. Somewhat; yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t it altogether, assuming the same flour? A. You 
seem to be confining yourself to kneading in the trough, where 
I said I didn’t help unless we were short-handed. There is a 
good deal of handling the dough after it is proved that I partici- 
pate in ; working out the dough, etc., makes quite an addition. 
Q. In the handling of that dough depends the bread? A. 
Yes, sir; somewhat. 
Q. Almost entirely, — that, and the yeast, and the quality 
of the flour? With the same flour the quality of the bread de- 
pends on the kneading and the yeast? A. The more it is 
kneaded the better it looks ; more in the looks than the taste a 
great deal, after all, — kneading. 
Q. Now, about how much bread is served out; about how 
much will one of your loaves, — I suppose you make it about 
all the same size loaf? A. We scale off, in baker’s parlance, 
a little over seven pounds ; not so particular as if they were for 
sale, of course. 
Q. As near as any baker would scale a loaf? A. No ; if 
37ou were going to sell it you would be particular. 
Q. You mean to have it about the same? A. Mean to 
have it full weight and aren’t particular if it is a little over. 
Q. About seven pounds to the loaf? A. In the dough; 
seven strong, and more, probably. 
Q. Seven strong; and then how much weight would you 
have in the loaf? A. I weighed several of them recently; 
the}’ weighed, most of them, 6 1-2, some a little less; we 
usually have a sort of scale, and I mould them all. 
Q. Now, you have told me that you weighed them ; when 
did you first commence weighing them? A. The bread? 
Q. These loaves that you told me you weighed recently. 
A. Well, I weighed some some few weeks ago, when some 
people were speaking about their weight, and before. 
Q. When before that did you weigh any? A. I don’t 
recollect; I occasionally do when the weight is questioned. 
Q. When the weight is questioned ; then, was it questioned 
before? A. Oh, undoubtedly; I don’t call to mind the par- 
ticular circumstances, but I recollect somebody said — 1876 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, then, very good; 3011 have got a loaf of six 
pounds and a half of bread. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In a single loaf. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is cut into pieces, I suppose, for the inmates? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. How much of that loaf is cut off for a breakfast? A. I 
don’t do it, but, of course, I see it done, a good deal of it. For 
the inmates who dine in the regular dining-hall ? 
Q. Yes. A. Each man has one slice laid to his plate, cut 
right through the whole width of the loaf. And then there are 
others that are cut into half slices ; if a man wants more he is 
given a half a slice. In 1113' judgment, two-thirds of them eat 
the whole slice and a half, and some, I know, eat twro pieces, 
making two whale slices for breakfast. 
Q. That is all the3T have, isn’t it? A. That is all they 
have; 
Q. Yes, sir ; precisely so. How many slices is the loaf cut 
into? A. Well, now, I can’t think; I have forgotten whether 
it is ten or eleven. I weighed several of the slices a day or tw o 
ago, and three of them weighed from 13 1-2 to 14. as I weighed 
quite a number. 
Q. Ounces? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Each? A. Three together. 
Q. (IW Gov. Butler.) Then a slice would weigh about 
four ounces? A. A slice, —there are half slices ; three times 
four are twelve; more than that, —13£ to 14, — and I have 
seen many of them eat that for breakfast. 
Q. I am not now upon the amount they eat; I am trying to 
get the weight of the slices. A. I am trying to figure it out 
for 3rou. 
Q. By and by we will talk about the eating. Now, about 
the width of the slices. They are cut into even slices, 3Tou say? 
A. I think so ; I don’t know that the3T are exacthq but that is 
my recollection. 
Q. Eleven or twelve, I suppose? A. I don’t think the3* 
were in twelve ; generally eleven. 
Q. Now, we have got them cut into eleven slices ; and one 
slice is put to each plate? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And if a man wants more he gets it? A. He gets a 
half a slice. 
Q. Gets half a slice ; and if he wrants still more he gets 
another half. A. Gets another half. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1877 
Q. And those whole slices weigh, — now, if you will kindly 
tell me what you will testify is the exact weight? A. The 
only way I weighed slices was to weigh several half loaves cut 
in half slices. 
Q. Half loaves cut in half slices ; what do you mean by 
that? A. Well, I will put it a little different,—these half 
loaves cut in slices that would make the half slices. I think I 
carried four or five such into the bake-house and weighed three 
slices at a time and got their weight. 
Q. That is, these half slices? A. Yes, sir; three half 
slices ; that is the only way I weighed them. 
Q. Three half slices ; and how much did these three half 
slices weigh? A. Some of them 13J- and some of them 14 
ounces. 
Q. Any less than that? A. None less than 13£, I believe. 
Q. Then a whole slice would be six or seven ounces, as the 
case would be? A. Yres, sir; as I weighed them. 
Q. Now, when they are taken into the hospital, into what 
size do they cut them? A. Probably they are all half slices; 
I don’t see them, — I see them in the boxes. 
Q. When they are taken in to the children, I suppose, they 
are still less? A. I can’t say, sir. 
Q. Now, then, how many slices of that bread are' given at 
dinner, if any? A. I think a half slice is put to each plate for 
dinner. 
Q. For dinner a half slice ; that is, three or four, or three 
and a half? A. I don’t know how much they eat, I am sure. 
Q. Of course you don’t know how much they eat; then, 
how much is put on for supper? A. 1 think the same as for 
breakfast; whole slices first, followed by half, if wanted. 
Q. Do you have any bread left from day to day? A. 
Always keep about two days’ supply, intend to, in the racks. 
Q. I understand; but do you have any left over from a 
day’s supply? A. Cut up? 
Q. Yes. A. I should say they cut their breakfast bread 
the night before. 
Q. Yes; it is cut the night before for breakfast. A. I 
won’t say they cut it all; a part is cut, I know, the night before, 
as I see it there. 
Q. Well, I want to know if from this supply you make for 
a day any is left over, or is it all eaten up? A. I don’t know 
as I understand you. 1878 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. I should understand in my family if bread was made 
to-day whether there was any left over or not. A. Yes, sir ; 
if I baked a lot of bread one day I should know whether it was 
used up the same day or not, of course ; but whether thei’e was 
any left — 
Q. No, I don’t mean the same day that it was made. Sa}r, 
Wednesday, — no, we won’t take that da}T, because the legisla- 
ture might have had the remainder that day ; but take any other 
day the legislature wa’n’t there. A. I should say there was 
possibly some left over. 
Q. Then it is given right out? Do you make any bread 
puddings there, do you know? A. No, sir. 
Q. What is done with the remnants of the bread? A. 1 
suppose it goes to the piggery. I don’t know of an}T other dis- 
position of it. 
Q. Now, have 3-011 any family? A. Yes, sir; I have a 
wife. 
Q. And she is at Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir; keeps house 
in the village. 
Q. And you have been there, you say, for seven years? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear anything about the dead bodies being 
removed anywhere? A. 1 don’t know that I ever did; no, 
sir. Possibly I have heard that bodies were sent to Harvard. 
I never heard about any particulars of it, I am sure. 
Q. Without the particulars, you knew the fact, didn’t you ? 
A. I couldn’t sa}r I knew it; no, sir. 
Q. But you heard of the fact? A. Oh, yes, sir. 
Q. And that is ever since 3011 have been there. Did you 
know Mr. Manning in his lifetime? A. I remember him ; 1 
never was acquainted with him at all. I have seen him. 
Q. Do you know what his business was? A. I always 
understood he was in the transportation business. 
Q. The transportation business? A. I understand so. 
Q. And you understood that meant moving dead bodies in 
the night-time, didn’t you ? A. Yes. 
Q. Did you ever attend the funeral of an3T of the inmates 
there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Whose funeral did you attend? A. I never attended 
but one. 
Q. Who was that? A. That was a Polish woman who 
died the first few months I was there. Some Poles — quite a 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1879 
number of them — came there, and one of them died in the 
hospital; and, of course, all the officers, nearly all, went to her 
funeral. It was a peculiar funeral service. 
Q. To see the peculiarity of the Polish funeral services, I 
suppose. A. They were peculiar. 
Q. I say you went to see them ; a very proper thing to do. 
A. I don’t remember anything particular about it; I know I 
went to the service, but not to the grave. 
Q. Was that the only time you ever went? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Been there seven years, and that was the only time. 
Have you ever seen a funeral procession or anything of the kind 
there since? A. I have no recollection of any ; no, sir. 
Q. And have you ever known of a funeral in that institution, 
since that one, of your own knowledge? A. No, sir. 
Q. You were there when the babies were dying so fast, 
weren’t you? A. I suppose so ; yes, sir. 
Q. You heard of it, sir? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Even’body did. You didn’t think it had anything to 
do with you, as they didn’t eat very much of your bread, I take 
it; they were too young. Now, did you ever see an}* of those 
buried? A. Buried, — no, sir. I have seen children’s coffins 
pass out through the yard. 
Q. You have seen them put in coffins — separate coffins? 
A. I never saw them put in ; I have seen children’s coffins, I 
say, pass in the hands of the undertaker. 
Q. Did you ever see one with any in it? A. No ; I could 
not see what was in it, of course. 
Q. .Could not see what was in it? A. No. 
Q. And, for aught you know, they might all have been car- 
ried off anywhere? A. I didn’t know anything about it. 
Q. Well, it was a matter talked over, wasn’t it, about this 
transportation business? A; Very little, I should say. 
Q. Not very much ; it is a thing not to be talked about too 
much; but, then, it was talked over among the people, among 
the officers and attendants? A. Probably ; I recollect hearing 
about it, that there was such. 
Q. Did you hear about those pieces of wood in the coffin? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. You never heard about that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. Cocker about that, — the 
engineer? A. Pieces of wood? 
Q. Yes ; having a funeral service over some billets of wood 1880 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
in a coffin? A. I was in his presence the da}’ after the first 
hearing, I think, when that matter was published, and heard it 
read. Whether I talked with him about it I don’t remember. 
There were three or four of us there. 
Q. You heard it read ; was there any observation upon it 
there? A. I guess there was. 
Q. And Mr. Cocker said he had heard about that before, 
didn’t he? A. I don’t remember he did ; he might. 
Q. He might; don’t you know? A. I don’t remember 
anything about it. 
Q. That was a pretty peculiar thing, wasn’t it? A. I was 
horror-stricken and left the room. 
Q. You were horror-stricken, and left without waiting to find 
out whether it was so or not? A. I didn’t wait. 
Q. You didn’t wait; }rou were horror-stricken and left; but 
didn’t you hear Mr. Cocker say, well, he knew about that? A. 
I don’t remember I did ; no, sir. 
Q. Did you hear it? Why, it is a thing that struck you 
with horror; and do you forget whether your neighbor, your, 
co-officer, told you he knew all about it? A. I don’t think he 
did ; I don’t believe he did ; I don’t know he didn’t. 
Q. You won’t say he didn’t? A. No. 
Q. Did anybody else say they knew about it; that they had 
heard about it before ? A. Well, 1 can’t recollect, distinctly ; 
I can’t swear whether they did or not; it is possible. Young 
Chase was there. 
Q. What? A. Yroung Chase was there at the time; 
whether he said so or not, I don’t remember. 
Q. I don’t know that he knew it; I guess it was before his 
time. A. Yes, sir ; I don’t think anybod}’ did in my presence ; 
I don’t recollect hearing it. 
Q. Well, now, can you say that you have such a memory 
that you know it was not said right there in your presence by 
Mr. Cocker, the engineer, that he had heard of it? A. No, 
sir; I remember nothing like it. I don’t remember that it was 
said, and it seems to me I should if it was said. 
Q. Who was present there when this was read over? A. 
Young Chase and Mr. Cocker, and I remember Mr. Cocker’s 
being there because he had the paper. 
Q. He had the paper? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he read it? A. Well, I can’t say who read it, I 
am sure. 1883 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1881 
Q. Now, he having the paper and reading it, didn’t you in- 
quire of him, why, Mr. Cocker, have you ever heard anything 
about this before? A. No, sir; Mr. Chase swore he did it, 
and that was enough for me. 
Q. What? A. Mr. Chase, as I recollect, swore he did that 
thing, and that was enough for me. I didn’t doubt but what it 
was done, if he swore he did it. 
Q. Didn’t doubt it was done if he swore he did it; and you 
believed it so thoroughly that you didn’t even ask Mr. Cocker 
about it. Now, did you know, when you were there, that babies 
were being carried out at the rate of seven or eight a day, some- 
times? A. 1 don’t remember the number ; I know they were 
dying off fast, from hearsay. 
Q. Right in the institution where you were a part, and didn’t 
it strike you as rather a singular thing? A. Yes, sir; and 
so much so as to lead me to inquire of the officer the cause of 
it. 
Q. What cause did you find out about when you made the 
inquiry? A. Colonel Tufts was the man 1 inquired of, and he 
told me they didn’t send anything to Tewksbury they expected 
to live ; something to that effect; that they selected the good 
ones for adoption, and sent the rest up there, the sick ones. 
That is what Colonel Tufts told me. 
Q. They selected those for adoption that would live, and 
sent the rest up there to die. A. I don’t know what they sent 
them for, but sent the sickly, — those that would not live, 
perhaps. 
Q. They selected out all that would live, and, of course, if 
they sent the rest of them there, they sent them there to die. 
A. I don’t know what the intention was; that was the infor- 
mation I got. 
Q. Who did you get that from? A. Colonel Tufts. 
Q. Colonel Tufts ; he was the Monson man. A. Yes, sir ; 
he was then in the board of state charities ; had the charge of 
the wards, the state wards. 
Q. Do you mean to sajq — think a moment, now; I want 
this to be certain,— that Colonel Tufts, an agent of the board 
of state charities, said that they transported only infants up 
there who were expected to die? A. I won’t say he put it in 
that way. I said he told me they chose for adoption, and so 
forth, the likely ones, and sent the poor and sickly ones to 
Tewksbury. 1882 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. And that is the reason why they all died ? A. I don’t 
know. 
Q. Yon were asking to find out? A. I was ; yes. 
Q. And then, he was giving you a reason, wa’n’t he? Now, 
seeing they selected out the well, and sent the poor and sickly 
ones up to die, why did they not save the expense of sending 
an officer or attendant with them, and bury them? A. That 
would not be humane, your honor. 
Q. Wouldn’t be humane? A. No. 
Q. Why not as humane to bury them here as it was to send 
them up there and not bury them? A. I don’t know the board 
of state charities sent them there. 
Q. What? A. I didn’t know the board of state charities 
sent them there. I supposed it was the city of Boston ; I didn’t 
know anything about it, and don’t know. 
Q. Well, but the}' came from all around everywhere, didn’t 
they? A. That I could not say, I am sure; I have nothing in 
mind now about any particular case. 
Q. There w'as a good many born there weren’t there ? A. 
I suppose there was a good many born there ; it looks as though 
there might be, I see, a good many times. 
Q. And they died? A. I understood they didn’t; I know 
nothing about it; I got nap understanding there. 
Q. Did you hear about the rats eating this man? A. I 
think I did hear that the rats gnawed a man’s nose in the hos- 
pital ; some of my men, I think, mentioned it. 
Q. When wras that? A. 1 could not say. 
Q. Wasn’t it some years ago? A paralyzed old man,— that 
was a good many years ago, wasn’t it? A. I think it was a 
corpse I heard was gnawed. 
Q. Of the paralyzed old man. A. I could not say the par- 
ticulars. 
Q. How long ago was that? A. 1 don’t remember; I re- 
called it when you were asking Mr. Smith. 
Q. What? A. When you were questioning Mr. Smith I 
recalled the circumstance, and I recollect hearing one of my men 
say one morning that the}' said there was a person died in the 
hospital. 
Q. About how long ago? AVe have had two cases where it 
was said the rats gnawed. Mr. Smith’s was very lately, and 
then there was one some time ago ; did you hear of the one some 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1883 
time ago? A. I don’t know, lint I should say it was six 
months. 
Q. What? A. I should say it might be six months, but I 
don’t know. 
Q. This of Mr. Smith’s wras only last February, less than 
six months. A. It is possible that is the case ; I don’t remem- 
ber about the time. 
Q. Now, did you hear about a man who got froze to death 
there? A. Never. 
Q. You never heard about him at all? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you hear about a man who got his head hit with a 
pickaxe? A. I saw a man, once, being carried into the hospi- 
tal, whose head was bleeding, and I ascertained, upon inquiry, 
that he had interfered with an insane man at work under the 
barn, and the insane man hit him a glancing blow with a pick- 
axe ; made it bleed a good deal, but didn’t hurt him, I guess, a 
great deal, as I recollect the case ; there was no death. 
Q. What? A. There was no death resulting from that, I 
am confident. 
Q. Was there another head hurt? A. No other case; I 
never heard of an}’ other case ; no, sir. 
Q. Did you examine the wound? A. No, sir; I tell only 
what I heard. 
Q. Why do you give us your opinion ; you are not a doctor 
as weir as a baker? A. I don’t assume to be ; I told what I 
heard. 
Q. I am asking you why did you give us your opinion it 
didn’t hurt him much? A. I heard it; I didn’t give an opinion ; 
I said I heard. 
Q. I thought you said you saw. A. I saw him being car- 
ried in, and I said, upon inquiry, I heard the circumstances 
which I have related. 
Q. That is: they had an insane man working under the 
barn, and another insane man interfered with him. A. I don’t 
understand the other man was insane. 
Q. A man interfered with his work, and the insane man 
struck him over the head with a pickaxe. A. Struck at him 
with a pickaxe, and the point of the pickaxe glanced off and 
struck his head so it made him bleed. 
Q. It is of no consequence whether he was killed, for my 
purpose ; all I want to know is whether there was a man hurt 
with a pickaxe ; the blow might not have glanced off, you know. 1884 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
A. This liian, — I inquired of the head farmer, — was there a 
great many years, and he was never known to be violent. 
Q. What? A. The head farmer told me this man was 
never known to be violent before, and he was astonished lie did 
the thing. 
Q. Then it was a matter talked about with these explana- 
tions. A. I can’t say; I talked about it with Mr. Poor, I 
know. 
Q. Mr. Poor, the head farmer? A. Yes. 
Q. Now, will you tell me whether, when you first went there, 
they used any pork there? A. They used it in the cook- 
kitchen ; yes ; pork, salt pork. 
Q. And did they continue to use it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And is an3’ boiled or baked or broiled, or aii3Tthing of that 
sort, for the inmates’ food ? A. Salt pork ? 
Q. Yes. A. It is baked in beans once a week; 1 have 
seen pieces of pork in the corned beef, ; what the 
general rule is, I don’t know, whether it has been or not. 
Q. It makes an article of the diet? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think I want to trouble you aii3r more, 
Mr. Barrett. 
The Witness. Thank you, sir. 
Q. (B3r Mr. Brown.) There is one question I want to ask 
you with regard to the weight of these slices : your loaves are of 
a uniform size, are they? A. Well, not exactty ; as i ex- 
plained to the governor, it is not as though we were going to 
sell them. 
Q. They are all baked in the same size dish, — pan, —are 
they not; or do 3rou have different sizes? A. There are three 
different sizes, so it happens; but there ma3r be a large loaf in a 
low pan, — as likely to be there as in a high one. There is not 
a great difference in the loaves ; there is no great difference ; 
the37 are nearly alike. 
Q. And these slices are about how thick ? A. I don’t know 
as I could tell you near enough to swear to it. 
Q. About an inch, more or less? A. I don’t know, sir; 
not quite an inch. 
Q. Not quite an inch? A. I think not. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1885 
Testimony of Isaac H. Coe (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Isaac H. Coe. 
Q. Of what place? A. New Bedford. 
Q. How long have you resided in New Bedford? A. 
Twenty-six years last April. 
Q. Have you been a member of the legislature from New 
Bedford? A. Yes, sir; I was in the House of Representa- 
tives in 1866-7. 
Q. 1866-7. A. And in the Senate 1872-3. 
Q. 1872-3. A. I think, 1872-3. 
Q. Have you held any other offices by election by the people? 
A. Nothing excepting the school committee. 
Q. Have you ever had to do with the overseers of the poor 
of the city of New Bedford? A. In 1878 I was associated 
with the secretary of the board of overseers as assistant and 
visitor, and continued through the year 1879 ; and in the year 
1881 I was elected secretary of the board of overseers, and held 
the office that year. 
Q. You have had people go to Tewksbury from New Bed- 
ford, I suppose? A. Yes. sir; in the winter. 
Q. And have had them return from Tewksbury to New Bed- 
ford? A. I have. 
Q. For how many years, if at all, have you been acquainted 
with the institution at Tewksbury? A. I was never acquainted 
with it till 1878. 
Q. And, since that time, have you been there? A. During 
the years 1878,’79 and ’81 I have been there, perhaps, — I 
can’t recall exactly, —but, perhaps, fifteen or twrenty times. 
Q. Fifteen or twenty times ; for what purpose did you go 
there? A. For the purpose of carrying inmates from New 
Bedford. 
Q. Did you announce your coming before you went? A. 
Never. 
Q. Never? A. No, sir. 
Q. What means, if any, did the officers of the institution 
have of knowing that you were going to visit Tewksbury before 
you got ou to the ground? A. Nothing till I arrived at the 
depot, and then a signal was given that there was somebody 
there. 1886 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Then a carriage would come down for you? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And you would go up? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, from the time that signal was given till the time 
you got to the institution, about how man}" minutes would be 
occupied? A. Generally it would not exceed thirty minutes. 
Q. Not exceeding thirty minutes? A. Not generally; I 
have waited longer than that. 
Q. Have waited longer? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many people in all have you taken to Tewksbury? 
A. 1 have no means of knowing exactly, but 1 should say, 
according to the best of my recollection, perhaps about twenty. 
Q. Any of those twenty people returned to New Bedford? 
A. Yes, sir ; several of them. 
Q. You have had an opportunity of seeing them; convers- 
ing with them? A. When 1 went to Tewksbury I usually went 
around and saw those that 1 had carried there ; some were sick 
and some were feeble, and 1 usually went around to see those 1 
was acquainted with personally to see how they were getting 
along. And I have seen some of them since they returned. 
Q. Well, now, Mr. Coe, 1 believe yon are a clergyman, are 
you, also? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Are you settled in New Bedford now? A,. I have been 
settled in New Bedford twenty-six years, and am on my twenty- 
seventh. 
Q. Over what church ? A. The South Christian Church. 
Q. What denomination is that? A. Christian. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What? A. The Christian de- 
nomination. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, Mr. Coe, 1 want you to tell us 
what you have seen at Tewksbury, please, in the way of mis- 
management, improper management, lack of discipline, or what 
information you have got there in regard to any mismanagement 
or lack of discipline or want of proper food. You need not 
occupy your time in stating the good things, but 1 want you to 
state what you heard that was bad. A. I saw nothing ; I 
never heard anything that was bad in the management, except 
one man who returned to New Bedford, and he called it a 
slaughter-house; a gentleman, I believe, that has been before 
this committee. 
Q. What is his name ? A. Joseph Beebe. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 800. 
1887 
Q. Well, did you see him after he returned from Tewksbury 
the first time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he called it a slaughter-house then? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How soon after he called it a slaughter-house did he go 
back to Tewksbury, do you recollect? A. I don’t think he has 
ever been back there himself, but he carried an invalid boy. lie 
didn’t go back to stay ; he said he wouldn’t go back to stay, but 
he had a boy who had fits, and he came to me, while I was 
secretary of the board, and wished to have that boy returned to 
Tewksbury. I reminded him of the remark he made that it was 
a slaughter-house, and asked him if he was going to send him 
there to be slaughtered. 
Q. What did he say to that? A. He said he could not 
take care of him. I asked him why he didn’t go with him ; he 
said he wa’n’t going there to be killed. 
Q. Now, with that exception, have you ever heard any com 
plaint, either at the institution or outside, from any person who 
has ever been there, of any unkind treatment, or lack of food or 
anything of that kind? A. Nothing whatever. 
Q. When you examined the institution in 1876, state how 
thoroughly you examined it? A. The first time T went there 
I stayed several hours and went through the whole institution 
accompanied, I. think, by one of the young Marshes ; I went 
through the whole institution. After that I used to go through 
and sometimes there would be an attendant that would go with 
me to some of the places, and sometimes I went entirely inde- 
pendent to visit those that T had carried there. 
Q. Now, sir, what practice, if any, did you make in regard 
to inquiring of the inmates in regard to the character and con- 
dition of the institution ? A. I usually inquired of them how 
they were and how they were getting along and how they fared. 
Q. Did you make that inquiry in the presence of an}' offi- 
cer of the institution ? A. I think never. 
Q. Did you make that inquiry of strangers, or people with 
whom you were acquainted ? A. Those whom I had carried 
there. 
Q. Now, in 1878, say, how many people were there there 
as inmates that you were acquainted with? A. There were 
very few that I was acquainted with when I first commenced 
going there, but in my subsequent visits I visited those I had 
carried there before, 1888 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. How many are there there now from New Bedford? A. 
I am not able to say, sir. 
Q. Now, take the matter of cleanliness of the rooms, beds, 
bedding and clothing upon inmates ; state what you have seen 
in regard to that? A. I should think that it was as well 
kept — 
Gov. Butler. There, stop a moment. 
Mr. Brown. Don’t compare it with an}’ other institution. 
The Witness. I wasn’t going to. 
Mr. Brown. Well, go on. 
The Witness. I was about to say that it was as well kept 
and as cleanly as it could be with that, class of men ; very many 
of them were diseased and men of filthy habits, and infirm and 
so on. J should say the rooms were kept clean and generally 
very well ventilated ; some of them were lacking in ventilation. 
Q. Now, this condition of cleanliness which you saw there, 
whether or not that, in your judgment, it could have been brought 
about in thirty minutes while you were coming up from the 
depot? A. I don’t think it could be. 
Q. Well, with regard to the food. A. I went to the 
kitchen ; I never was there while they were eating, I think, but 
I went to the kitchen several times and examined the bread ; 
and I recollect on one occasion being there when the meat was 
taken out, a very large quantity of it, and I inquired the 
amount that they provided ; and it vras taken out warm from 
the kettle and I examined it. 
Q. Did you examine the soup? A. I did not; I don’t 
recollect of being there at any time when they were making 
soup. 
Q. Did you examine the beds and bedding? A. Yes, sir; 
and I should say the beds was generally in good condition. 
Q. Did you examine to see what the ticks were filled with? 
A. I did not; nothing more than to put my hand on them. 
Q. Examine the hospital department? A. I went through 
the hospital department. 
Q. Did you go at any time to the childen’s hospital? A. I 
did. 
Q. Did? A. Yes. 
Q. How about the condition of that? A. Well, they 
looked clean, but they all of them had an unhealthy look, looked 
feeble ; that is, those that were brought there ; there were children 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1889 
there with their mothers, some that I carried there, that were 
confined there ; those were healths* and rugged. 
Q. Now, these mothers that you carried there to remain 
during confinement; have you ever seen them to converse with 
them ? 
Gov. Butler. He didn’t carry them ; he has not said he 
did. 
Mr. Brown. Met them, then. 
Gov. Butler. You assume he carried them there ; T have 
not heard he did. 
Mr. Brown. I understood he did. 
The Witness. I spoke of some that I carried. Yes ; I saw 
them after they were confined. 
Q. Did the}* speak of their treatment? A. Yes, sir. I 
recollect one young woman about twenty years of age that I 
carried there, and she remained there, I think, till her child, I 
think, was about six months old, before she left. 
Q. What was her name? A. Her name was Kate Mor- 
rison. 
Q. Do you know where she is now? A. I do not, only 
from hearsay ; I suppose she is in New Bedford, working in the 
factory. 
Q. Working in the factory. A. Yes, sir ; the child was 
at her father’s house, the last I knew of it, a healthy, rugged 
boy. 
Q. How long ago was that? A. I should think it was a 
}*ear since I have seen her. 
Q. How long ago was it she was taken there for confine- 
ment? A. In 1879, I think. 
Q. Then, I understand }mu to say that the complaint which 
this man Beebe made was the only complaint that you have 
ever heard, in the institution or out of it? A. Yes, sir ; from 
any one of the inmates. 
Q. From any one of the inmates. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, have you heard complaints from any other source? 
A. Well, there has been a great deal of talk since this matter 
came up, of course. 
Q. Since this matter came up? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Till this matter came up, this investigation, did you ever 
hear anything outside? A. I don’t recollect from any inmate 
or from any person acquainted with it. 1890 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
lAPr* 
Q. I want to ask about this. From whom did you hear 
complaints since the investigation came up? A. I don’t 
know that I ever heard any complaints from any one, excepting 
the general talk that it was a horrid state of things ; complaints 
arising from newspaper reports. 
Q. Well, now, I want to get a little about your going up. 
What does it cost to take an inmate from New Bedford there? 
A. It costs about, — well, between three and four dollars. 
Q. Fare up there and back? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And what did the attendant get? A. Nothing at all. 
Q. Nothing at all? A. No, sir; I went there as the as- 
sistant secretary and visitor of the board; that was a part of 
my office. 
Q. That was a part of your duty; and you are a paid offi- 
cer, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well; now, to take a child up there, — did you ever 
take a child up there? A. I think I never carried one. 
Q. You never carried one. A. We generally sent a woman 
from the almshouse when we had a little child to carry. 
Q. Now, the first time you went around, if I understand, 
you went with one of the young Marshes? A. Yes, sir; I 
think it was one of them. 
Q. He attended you around. A. Yes, sir; showed me. 
Q. Did you turn down the beds at that time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. Not at that time. 
Q. Not at that time? A. I don’t think I did at that time. 
Q You didn’t attempt it at that time? A. No. 
Q. Did you go into the kitchen at that time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But at that time 3*011 heard no complaint? A. No, sir ; 
there was nobody there that was acquainted with me ; nobody 
who would be likely to complain to me. 
Q. Nobody who knew anything about you. A. No, sir ; I 
went there as a stranger. 
Q. And the3T didn’t volunteer to make any complaint to you 
in the presence of Mr. Marsh? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, did you go into that little room off of the hospital? 
A. I have no recollection of it. 
Q. Did you go into the cell up in the attic? A. I have no 
recollection of going there ; 1 went through the kitchen and the 
wards, the general wards, 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1891 
Q. You went through the kitchen and the open wards? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you go into the bath-rooms? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Don’t remember the bathing-rooms? A. No, sir. 
Q. But you went, into the open wards and saw them? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well. Now, the next time you went there, — how 
many did }rou take up the first time, one? A. 1 think ontyone 
the first time. 
Q. How long after before you went the next time? A. I 
can’t recall the time, sir; I have no data from which to tell. 
Q. Now, who did you go to see the second time you were 
there? A. The second time I was there I went to see the old 
gentleman 1 carried up the first time. 
Q. He was in the old gentlemen’s ward, was he? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And he said nothing to you? A. No, sir. 
Q. The third time went up there, who did you go to 
see? A. I don’t remember who I carried the second time; I 
generally went to see those 1 had carried. 
Q. The man }rou carried, — you didn’t go to see him ; you 
had had enough of his company. A. Those 1 had carried 
previously. 
Q. I know ; but you have got the old gentleman ; who did 
3rou talk with the third time ; the old gentleman talked with 
the second time. A. 1 don’t recall the names, sir. 
Q. Tell me who you talked with the fourth time? A. 1 
don’t recall their names, sir. 
Q. Tell me who you talked with the fifth time? A. I can’t 
recall the names of the persons. 
Q. Can 3Tou give me a single person’s name whom 3rou did 
talk with, so 1 can send for him, ywi know? A. I can’t give 
you the name of ari3T one I talked with and the time 1 talked 
with them. If you wish me to give yon the name of any per- 
son I talked with I can give it to you. 
Q. Pardon me; I want to know, — ver3’ well; now give 
me the name of a person with whom you talked. A. One was 
a Mr. Brown. 
Q. Was he the old gentleman? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. What Brown was that? A. I don’t recall his Christian 1892 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
name. He died of consumption while there ; he was sick when 
I carried him. 
Q. How long before he died did you talk with him ? A I 
think I saw him two or three times before he died. 
Q. He was dying with consumption in the hospital? A. 
Yes. 
Q. Give me the name of somebody else with whom you 
talked. A. Katie Morrison. 
Q. Who was she? A. She was Katie Moirison of New 
Bedford. 
Q. Of New Bedford? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. She could not have been of New Bedford, very well, 
because she would have a settlement there ; she was Katie Mor- 
rison who was in New Bedford. A. She was Katie Morrison 
of New Bedford. 
Q. From New Bedford. A. I don’t speak of her settle- 
ment. 
Q. Who was she? A. She was a young lady twenty-one 
old, twenty years old. 
Q. A young lady twenty years old? A. Yes. 
Q. She was the one who had this baby? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And she is still to be found? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And what did she say? Where did you talk with her? 
A. I asked her how she was getting along and she said first 
rate ; 1 asked her how she liked, and she said very well, indeed ; 
said she was having a nice time. 
Q. She was having a nice time ; do you know w'hat she was 
doing? A. I think she was tending the baby when I saw her. 
Q. Do you know whether she had any other business? A. 
She was helping about the ward where she was. 
Q. She was having a nice time. Tell me somebody else 
you talked with? A. Well, I talked a very little with another 
one ; she was a Portuguese girl and she couldn’t speak English 
very well, and 1 didn’t have much conversation with her. 
Q. The other was a Portuguese girl who could not speak 
English. A. Not very well. 
Q. Tell me somebody else? A. I can’t recall the names. 
Q. Oh, I would ; can’t you help me any1? A. What say? 
Q. Can’t you help me to somebody else? The Portuguese 
girl can’t do me anyr good, the consumptive is dead, and the old 
man, I think, is dead by this time. A. 1 don’t know; he 
came back to New Bedford. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
1893 
Q. He liked so well he came back. A. He ran away. 
Q. What? A. He ran away from the institution. 
Q. That was evidence of his liking; he ran away? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. We have got Katie Morrison, and we have got the old 
man who ran away, and the one who died with consumption, 
and the Portuguese girl. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, we haven’t got a large list that you talked with to 
select from? A. Oh, 110 ; not very. 
Q. Anybody else you talked with? A. 1 think I saw an 
old lady, but 1 cannot recall her name. 
Q. That won’t help me any. A. No ; not a bit. 
Q. Not a bit; is she alive or dead? A. I do not know; 
she was very old when we carried her there. She was an old 
Scotch woman. 
Q. All these people had to go there? A. They all did go 
there. 
Q. They didn’t go from choice? A. Some of them did. 
(4. After they had been in the New Bedford almshouse? A. 
No, sir ; before they were carried there. 
Q. They went from choice ; what choice had they? Where 
could they go if they didn’t go there? A. They had no means 
of support, and chose to go there rather than to starve. 
Q. Oh, yes ; that is what you call choice? A. Yes. 
Q. Choice between starvation and Tewksbury? A. Yes. 
Q. And they chose Tewksbury ? A. Yes, sir ; a wise choice. 
Q. What? A. A wise choice, I think. 
Q. 1 think it was a wise choice ; if 1 could not do any bet- 
ter, I don’t know but 1 should go there rather than starve, my- 
self. But this old man, he chose rather to go away and starve, 
than to stay there ? A. lres, sir ; there wasn’t rum enough there 
for him. 
Q. Well, did he sta}r in New Bedford where he could get 
rum enough? A. I don’t know; I don’t know whether he is 
living now, or not. 
CJ. What? A. I don’t know whether he is living or dead. 
Q. And on the testimony of this one man who swore that it 
was a slaughter-house, and one man who ran away, and one who 
died of consumption, and a Portuguese girl who could not speak 
English, you think the institution has a good reputation? A. I 
have not said so. 
Q. Nor you don’t mean to say so? A. No, sir; I do not. 1894 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You don’t think it had a good reputation ? A. I do not 
think anything I heard gave it a bad reputation. 
Q. From these people? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, don’t you know, Mr. Witness, that there has been 
for years a good deal of objection to people going to Tewks- 
bury? A. No, sir. 
Q. Not any? A. I know there have been people in New 
Bedford who have objected. 
Q. I only wanted within your knowledge. You don’t know 
all over the world? A. No, sir. 
Q. That is very evident. Within your limited means of 
knowledge don’t you know it? A. I know of persons that have 
objected to going there. 
Q. Many? A. Not a great many, I should say. 
Q. Not a great many more than those you have said spoke 
well of it? A. Well, there are a great many people that don’t 
like to go to any almshouse. 
Q. I know. And they objected to going; but they had to 
go. A. Some of them. 
Q. Did you ever know anybody that had any chance to live 
anywhere else willing to go there? A. I should be ashamed 
if they did. 
Q. What? A. I should be ashamed of them if they did if 
they could get a living themselves. 
Q. Whether any person who had any chance to live any- 
where else would go there from choice? A. I say I don’t 
know of such. I should be ashamed of them if they did. 
Q. Now, did you know, or did these people know, that they 
were likely to be cut up if they died ? A. I never asked them 
the question and I don’t know anything about it. I don’t 
know. 
Q. You didn’t know? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, you examined into all these matters at Tewks- 
bury. Did you examine the dead-house? A. No, sir ; I think 
not. 
Q. Did you examine the provisions for funerals, to see how 
they did it? A. No, sir; I did not. 
Q. Did yon make any inquiry upon that? A. No, sir; 1 
think not. 
Q. Well, that would have been a pretty material matter to 
you, supposing you had been going there, if you had known you 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1895 
were going to be cut up after you got through? A. Well, that 
is a mere matter of taste. 
Q. Would your taste have been that way? A. My taste 
woukl be not to be cut up, either dead or alive. 
Q. Well, it is likely other people’s tastes would be that way? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. It would add a new terror to death, would it not, to 
know you were lying there, and it was only a day or two, three, 
four or five days, before }rou were to pass away, and you would 
be put under the dissection-knife? A. I have known instances 
where they requested it. 
Q. Well, give me — who was that fellow ; I want to catch 
him. A. Josiah Stevens. 
Q. Who is Josiah Stevens? A. An old man who died in 
1865, in New Bedford. 
Q. And was he cut up? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Left it in his will ? A. No, sir ; he requested it. 
Q. Post-mortem? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Oh, is that what you mean? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. After the post-mortem examination he was buried, I sup- 
pose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, now, Mr. Preacher, did you understand me to 
mean a post-mortem examination? A. Mr. Governor, I did. 
Q. Now, 3'ou did understand me to mean — when I asked 
about a man going under the dissecting-knife you understood 
me to mean a post-mortem examination. A. You didn’t say 
dissecting-knife, you said cut up. 
Gov. Butler. I put the dissecting-knife in, I think. 
The Witness. I think not. 
Gov. Butler. The record will show. 
Q. Very well, whether I said dissecting-knife or not, do you 
— after 1 put this question to you, as an honest man, whether 
you didn’t think it woukl add a new terror to death to know 
that you were dying, and in a day or two, more or less, you 
might be sent away to be cut up and not buried, and after you 
told me about Mr. Josiah Stevens, do you think that a fair 
answer to my question? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You do? A. Yes; as fair as the question. 
Q. Now, do 3TM1 know anybody who would desire to be dis- 
sected and their bones exposed, if you please, and their skin 
tanned, and a few little things of that sort done with them ? 
A. Well, as far as the tanning is concerned, I never heard. I 1896 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
have heard men say they didn’t cai’e how fine their bodies were 
cut up after they were gone. 
Q. Is that the general opinion of the community'? A. I 
should think it was not. 
Q. Give me anybody else, — leaving out post-mortem 
examinations, which we all want to have, to know that we are 
actually dead before we are buried — will you tell me anybody 
who expressed that desire? A. I don’t know that I could 
recall the name. 
Q. Give me anybody, dead or alive. A. I don’t know that 
I recall any person’s name. 
Q. When were you first called upon to be a witness here, 
sir? A. Well, sir, it would be very difficult for me to tell yTou. 
Q. Why so? To be a Witness in this case? A. I received 
a telegram night before last, saying “ Go to Boston imme- 
diately.” 
Q. From whom did you receive it? A. From my son. 
Q. Where is he? A. In New Bedford. 
Q. Where are you living? A. I am living in New Bedford 
when I am at home. 
Q. Where were you then ? A. At Killingly, Conn. 
Q. You received a telegram from your son to go to Boston 
immediately. A. Yes, sir. I have the telegram if you want 
to see it. 
Q. When was that? A. Night before last. 
Q. And you came instantly"? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. How long did you wait? A. Until four o’clock the 
next morning. 
Q. Well, that was as near instantly as you could come. 
That is, by the train you came directly. Now, I will see the 
telegram, if you are anxious to show it. [Takes the telegram.] 
What is your son in New Bedford? A. He is clerk in a gro- 
cery' store. 
Q. ‘‘Go to Boston immediately. Report at 150 Devon- 
shire Street.” [The telegram.] Did you know what you were 
wanted for? A. I supposed I did. 
Q. Had you had communication previous to that time? A. 
With whom? 
Q. With anybody' about this matter ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who was it? A. A gentleman in New Bedford. 
Q. What was his name ? A. His name is Milliken. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1897 
Q. An official any*where? A. No, sir ; not to my knowl- 
edge. 
Q. And whom did you find at 150 Devonshire Street? A. 
Unfortunately* I didn’t find anybody except the doorkeeper — 
the janitor. 
Q. What is that place? 
Mr. Brown. The Equitable Building. 
Q. Whom did you first see about your testimony*? A. Pre- 
vious to coming here ? 
Q. Yes. A. , Mr. Milliken was the first man that spoke to 
me about it. That was on Saturday last. 
Q. Then you find yourself here? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think I shall want to trouble y*ou any* 
further, Mr. Coe. 
Testimony of Orville F. Rogers (sivorn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Your full name, Doctor? A. Orville F. Rogers. 
Q. And you are a physician, are you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where are you stationed? A. In Dorchester. 
Q. Are you physician at what is called, the Austin farm, 
the city poor-farm? A. I am. 
Q. How long have you been there in attendance? A. 
About five years. 
Q. Are you the only physician there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That, I believe, is the place where the female poor of the 
city of Boston are kept? A. It is. 
Q. Doctor, how frequently, since 3011 have been there, have 
you had people brought to your institution from the almshouse 
at Tewksbury? A. I could not say. Not very frequently*; 
from my* observation I could not say. 
Q. You have had some? A. I should not necessarily see 
them unless they were sick. 
Q. Do yon recollect sometime within a yrear or two you had 
quite a squad come there? A. Yes, sir; I remember hearing 
them spoken of. 
Q. Have you ever had any* conversation with any of these 
people with regard to their having been at Tewksbury? A. 
Yes ; I have at some time. 
Q. Give us the name of any person. A. I could not give 
you the name of one of them. 1898 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Could not? A. No, sir; I make no attempt at all to 
remember the names of patients. 
Q. Have you had conversation with any of the inmates of 
your institution recently who have been to Tewksbury? A. 
Yes ; I have. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I must object to that; this getting up 
testimony about this thing recentty. 
Mr. Brown. What is that? 
Gov. Butler. I must object to what has been said and done 
recentty, because I have alwa3*s carefully excluded what com- 
plaints there may have been against Tewksbury since this in- 
vestigation commenced, 37ou have observed. Because it would 
not be fair to the institution or fair to an3Tbod3r to put in such 
complaints. I could do a great deal of that. It is just as un- 
fair that since this thing has been going on there have been in- 
quiries made, because it is what we law3Ters call “ after litiga- 
tion moved.” Both sides can go and talk with people, taking 
care to test them properly or have them instructed beforehand, 
or put on honest witnesses to tell what the3’ have been instructed 
before. It would be eas3r to get up any of testimony 
in that wa3’. An\Ttliing that he heard before or did not hear 
before I am content with, and I suppose he will give us a fair 
account of it. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman : I suppose it would not be fair 
if an inmate made a complaint against the institution ; but if 
an inmate had been at the institution before this investigation 
commenced, and, notwithstanding this investigation, wanted 
to go back there in order to return to the paradise of her former 
3rears, I suppose that would be proper ; and I don’t suppose that 
would hurt anybod3', and I think the committee would like to 
know something about a case of that kind. 
The Chairman. I will submit the question to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. If you will allow me. I say this: If this was 
a matter of choice with these poor people that argument would 
be of some weight. But it is, — as this preacher witness of ours 
told us, — it is that or starve. What they sa3T or do not sa3T, 
when the3T are going back, is of no consequence. They have 
got to go there. And I have not objected to this beforehand, 
although it is subject to objection, but afterward it is not fair to 
put that in, because there is not any testimony that can be 
made that wav. And it is just as fair for me to put in their 
objections to going, as it is for them to put in whether they will 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1899 
or won’t go. T agree that people have to go there. One has 
had to go there who has been on this stand ; and I hope that 
sometime the institution will get in such condition that eveiy- 
body will be as willing to go there as they are to go anywhere 
where such people have to go. 
The Chairman. I don’t understand they are compelled to 
make any statement for or against the institution, if they are 
compelled to go back. 
Gov. Butler. But their statement for or against the institu- 
tion, since the investigation's not proper, in my judgment, and 
is as unfair on this side as on the other. 
The Chairman. State the question, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. I want to say a single word, because I think T 
have been misunderstood. [To the governor.] I am perfectly 
willing you should have the close'. [To the committee.] This 
case I offer is not a case where it was starvation or Tewksbury ; 
it was a case where a party was bound to stay at the Austin 
poor farm, but wanted to go away and go to Tewksbury. I 
take it that is not starvation or Tewksbury ; it is simply Austin 
farm or Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. Then I don’t know but there is a worse place 
on earth than Tewksbury, and it may be this very farm ; and 1 
have got to go into that and ascertain what on earth there is at 
this farm that makes a person prefer Tewksbury to it. It opens 
that field. 
The Chairman. State the question, and I will submit it to 
the committee. 
Mr. Brown. I want to ask this witness, under a previous 
ruling in regard to introducing evidence as to what the inmates 
of Tewksbury have said about the institution who have come 
here, I want to ask in regard to a particular case, where a per- 
son formerly an inmate, before this investigation commenced, 
and now at the Austin farm, expresses a desire, who has spoken 
in regard to treatment at Tewksbury, as I understand, has 
expressed a desire to go back there; and that has been 
expressed since this investigation. 
Gov. Butler. Then I have got to go into what has been 
done, and find whether she has not been hired to do that. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t object to that. 
Gov. Butler. I do, because life is short. 
[The committee voted that the question might be asked.] 1900 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) To whom did you refer in your testi- 
mony a few' minutes ago? 
Gov. Butler. He said he could not give her name ? 
The Witness. I cannot give her name. She is an old woman 
who is partially blind. She must be about seventy' years old. 
Q. How long has she been at the Austin farm? A. It 
would be a guess ; but I should guess about a year. 
Q. Had conversation with her recently in regard to her ex- 
perience at Tewksbury ? A. Yes; 1 asked her as a matter of 
curiosity. 
Gov. Butler. Does the committee admit this now? Do I 
understand the committee vote this sort of thing in? 
Mr. Brown. The witness has already testified that a woman 
whose name he does not recall, who is well informed, about 
seventy years of age, and who has been at the Austin farm 
something like a yrear— He has proceeded to say that as a mat- 
ter of curiosity he had conversation with her in regard to 
Tewksbury, and then he was going on to state what she said 
when the'governor objected. 
Mr. Mellen. I move a reconsideration of the vote whereby 
we voted to admit that. I don’t believe in it. I don’t believe 
it is fair, and I don’t want to stay here six months. If we are 
going to have officers of institutions, city, local, inquiring of 
aged inmates as to what their opinions of Tewksbury may be, 
if they have ever been there, and then come here and tell their 
stories, it seems to me this investigation will never end. I 
don’t see as it has any bearing. If they want to bring this wit- 
ness here that is another matter. 
The Chairman. The question has already been put. This 
is another question. 
Mr. Mellen. Then I move that we go no further in this 
line. 
The Chairman. I will submit the motion to the committee. 
Mr. Brown. Would it be proper for me to say a word in 
regard to that? The committee have voted two or three times, 
as I understand it, to allow the defence to interrogate persons 
who have had the opportunity of visiting the institution and of 
conversing with people who have been there as inmates, for the 
purpose of ascertaining what complaints have been made against 
the institution ; and the committee so voted because His Excel- 
lency claimed, in putting in his case, that it was this complaint 
in regard to management, food, discipline, clothing, cruelty, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1901 
and all that sort of thing, that made up the record of the insti- 
tution. And if you refer to the printed record of His Excel- 
lency’s case you will find innumerable instances where that sort 
of thing was done. People were asked, well, what did this man 
say of his treatment, or that woman, or the other woman. The 
Dudlej’s, and the Barkers, and all that class of people, testified 
to what had been told them in regard to the treatment of people 
there, what people said as to what had taken place there. Now 
this is precisely this case, and no different. Here is a person 
who has beeii at this institution, as I understand it, that speaks 
well of it; and that, if I appreciate this case, is objected to 
because the institution is well spoken of. It is not possible, 
His Excellency says, to meet a case where I put in the 
evidence of a person who speaks well of the institution ; but 
he holds me up to the strictest rule to meet every case 
where he put in the eviden.ce of somebody who spoke ill of the 
institution. Now, that is precisely where wre are. Now, if it 
was fair in one case,—and it seemed to have been admitted, 
because the committee thought it was fair, and wanted to give 
in this case the fullest possible scope,—if it was fair in one case 
it is certainly fair in the other. I don’t believe in indulging 
very much in this kind of testimony. It was indulged in to a 
very large extent in His Excellency’s case, and I purpose to 
meet it by showing, from a certain number of witnesses who 
have had an opportunity of seeing and conversing with people 
.who have come from the institution, that they were well clad, 
that they never complained of improper food, or anything im- 
proper at the institution. I propose to meet it, not with a large 
amount of testimony, because I am perfectly well aware that 
this general testimon}r does not touch the question of cruelty or 
abusive treatment which has been testified to in His Excellency’s 
case ; and I have not offered very much of this kind of testi- 
mony,—only two or three witnesses, so far, — and I have very 
little of it to offer. But here, for instance, is a physician at the 
Austin farm. The city of Boston sends a great many people to 
Tewksbury, and takes a great many back. I suppose that this 
woman came back to the Austin farm, because, after having- 
been at Tewksbury, it was found that she had a settlement in Bos- 
ton, and so came back. And it is not a question as between 
Tewksbury and starvation ; it is a question between the treat- 
ment at the Austin farm and at Tewksbury. And I take it that 
the reputation of the treatment at the Austin farm is something 1902 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that this committee may fairly take cognizance of. This com- 
mittee has taken cognizance of the treatment in town poorhouses 
all through this investigation, and, 1 think, at the suggestion of 
His Excellency, if I am not mistaken. I recollect one member 
of the committee said that he didn’t care to hear anything about 
what took place at Lancaster, because he was familiar with the 
institution. I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask that the 
committee on public charitable institutions should take judicial 
notice of the average character of the poor-farms in Massachu- 
setts or in the city of Boston. 
Gov. Butler. A more gross misstatement 1 never have 
heard than the statement that I have, in innumerable instances, 
put in this class of testimony, when I never have, in a single 
instance. The distinction is as wide and as broad as can well 
be. I have asked for complaints made in the institution to 
officers of the institution while in the institution. It is said that 
I have done it through Mr. Barker and Mr. Dudley. I never 
asked them of any complaint made outside of the institution. I 
never went down to Danvers to have the insane people there 
tell their attendants what was done with them at Tewksbury, 
where Mr. Dudley was employed. I didn’t ask anything of that 
sort, haven’t asked anything of that sort, and it is a gross mis- 
statement. Now, then, what is the proposition now? They 
say' that some old woman, blind, has desired to go to Tewksbury 
rather than remain in the present place where she is, and that is 
gravely put forward, after raking the Commonwealth with a fine- 
tooth comb for witnesses in behalf of Tewksbury,—it is gravely 
put forth as a defence for this institution that there is an old 
woman, who has so far lost her mind and her eyesight, that she 
is willing to go back to Tewksbury. I should be very willing to 
hear it, or anything of the sort, except on account of the ques- 
tion of time that it takes ; but it must not be made general upon the 
ground that I have put in such testimony, or that you have voted 
that I should put in such testimony. When you ruled on the case 
of Andrews, which was said to be a precedent for it, that I put 
in hearsay testimony, that hearsay testimony was about where 
the bodies came from that he was selling at the time ; that was 
a declaration coming years ago. Now this is something got up 
within two or three day's, and I respectfully ask the committee 
to say whether we shall go into it, whether it is evidence. Let 
them bring the old lady here ; let us see what her mind is. Why 
distil it through the alembic of the doctor’s mind and memory'? 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1903 
Let us have it fresh from the cask, whatever her opinion is. 
And I respectfully say that if she should come here now and say 
she did want to go back again, it would not be any evidence. 
It don’t tell what her motive is or what motives have been brought 
to bear. She may have a child there that she would rather 
go and stay- and suffer with than to remain away from. Then 
there is another objection. You are told that you are to take 
notice, cognizance of all the poorhouses in this State. Oh, no ; 
oh, no. You are to take cognizance of the public charitable 
institutions of the State—and that is about as much business as 
you can attend to—not all the uncharitable institutions of the 
towns of the Commonwealth. And we have got to go into the 
examination of what are all the causes operating upon this 
woman’s mind. I have put in complaints made at the place and 
at the time in Tewksbury, to show that these matters came to 
the attention of the officers there, in order to show the mis- 
management of the institution. One I proved this very 
morning. Here was a man’s head and face gnawed by the rats, 
by the neglect of the watchman. He died, and no man knew 
when he died, or whether the rats ate him before or after. He 
died, and yet that watchman was kept in all the same until the 
first of May, when, through my act, perhaps, I may say, a change 
was made, and then that man left. 
Mr. Loring. Governor, I think you are arguing a question 
which should be reserved until the evidence is in. 
Gov. Butler. What, sir? 
Mr. Loring. I think you are arguing the case. I think you 
are arguing a point that you ought to reserve until the evidence 
is all in. 
Gov. Butler. I am arguing upon the question of the differ- 
ence between the complaints I have put in and the absence of 
complaint which Mr. Brown proposes to put in. 
Mr. Brown. You will find it on the 94th page : “ Q. You 
didn’t hear that? A. My wife told me. Q. She will tell us 
about that? A. My wife came back and told me that Dr. 
Lathrop had said he was tired and it would not do any good for 
him to come over.” 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
Mr. Brown. That was one of the complaints charged against 
this institution. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
Mr. Brown. On the hearsay of a man who was there as an 1904 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
officer, and who was afterwards brought here to testify, and the 
committee allowed it to go in. 
Mr. Loring. We let in everything in the way of hearsay 
that coukl be brought to show bad management, or complaint of 
any kind, Avithout regard to whether it was hearsay or otherwise. 
Gov. Butler. Again I am to be closed upon. 
Mr. Brown. Won’t you let me get through? 
Gov. Butler. No ; because you have no right to say any- 
thing. I got up for the purpose of stopping you. 
Mr. Brown. Now— 
The Chairman. I think the governor has the floor. 
Mr. Brown. Does he have the floor before I get through? 
I am always willing he should have it, but I want to say another 
word. 
Gov. Butler. I object to his saying anything. It is one of 
my rights and the committee ought to save it to me. 
The Chairman. Mr. Brown had not the right really to speak 
this last time. The governor had the close. 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me that this question differs widel}' 
from any question that was asked. The witness was about to 
testify that out of curiosity he inquired of this old lady about 
the management and condition of the Tewksbury almshouse. 
Am I right ? 
Mr. Brown. No, sir ; that is not the question. 
Mr. Putney. I understood him to say that was about what he 
was to reply. 
Mr. Broavn. No, sir; I don’t understand that to be the case. 
Mr. Putney. Can the reporter read the question ? 
[The reporter read the question last objected to and the 
answer made by the Avitness.] 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me that the witness was endeavoring 
to get some information out of this old lad}" as a matter of 
curiosity to him. Now I take it that when Mr. Dudley spoke 
of what his wife had told him he referred to her as being an 
attendant at the institution and as knowing to certain facts ; and 
afterwards she came upon the stand here and testified. Now, if 
this old lady is able to come upon the stand and tell her 
own story before this committee, it seems to me that would be 
another proposition than the one we have before us. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Coe just left the stand, and his whole testi- 
mony was in regard to Avhat he had heard inmates say. This is 
precisely the same case as Mr. Coe’s. 1883.] 
1I0USK — No. 300. 
1905 
Gov. Butler. If you hud put that in, and said — on the 
ground in Tewksbury— 
Mr. Brown. And elsewhere. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t object to his commenting on Mr. Beebe, 
for I knew that he was staunch. 
Mr. Brown. His was talk with other people outside, sir. 
Mr. Mellen. There is no parallel, in my mind, between this 
case and any other that lias been put before this committee. It 
is very dissimilar to this which Mr. Brown refers to. Now what 
would prevent counsel from sending to these institutions where 
there may be former inmates of the institution at Tewksbury, 
getting people to interview them, and having those people come 
on the stand and say that this man, that woman, and the other, 
had said something derogatory to the management at Tewks- 
bury ? Would that be competent ? Would it be Avise to enter 
into this class of evidence ? I have no objection to this old 
lady coming on the stand and telling her story, but I do think 
it unwise for this committee to take the testimony of any one 
who, from curiosity, goes to some former inmate and then comes 
here to tell what that former inmate said—whether it is favor- 
able or unfavorable matters not to me. I maintain that this 
examination is very dissimilar from everything we have had 
before. We have established no precedent for it. 
Mr. Loring. My trouble is that practically there is not much 
difference in degree in hearsay evidence. When we go into 
hearsay evidence there is no end to it. The trouble was on the 
first night, as I look at it, in letting in hearsay. We sat’ there 
are different degrees of hearsay and this is one of the degrees. 
I should think this tvas very incompetent if we hadn’t been 
admitting it right along. 
The Chairman. Mr. Mellen moves that the question be 
rejected. 
[The question was put and the motion to reject the question 
was lost.] 
The Chairman. AnsAver the question, Doctor. 
Mr. Broavn. You Avere going on to state what conversation 
you had. 
The Witness. I asked her how she liked Tewksbury and she 
said very well. I asked her if she had plenty to eat and she 
said she did. I asked her if she was treated well and she said 
she was. I asked her which place she liked the best, the Austin 
farm or Tewksbury, and she said she liked them both very Avell; 1906 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that she was in Tewksbury a good many years, and she thought 
she had rather live there, because it seemed more like home to 
her. That is the substance of all she said. 
Q. Now, when was that conversation ? A. Yesterday or 
day before. 
Q. Now, Doctor, have you had an opportunity of seeing 
patients who came from Tewksbury to the Austin farm soon 
after their arrival ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How have they been clad ? A. I could not say that I 
ever saw one with the clothing on that she had when she came 
from Tewksbury. I don’t know whether they were the Tewks- 
bury clothes or not. 
Q. I don’t care whether they wore the clothes they wore as 
inmates ; were they comfortably clad when the}' arrived ? A. I 
didn’t see them when they arrived. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. How came you to be asking this woman about Tewks- 
bury ? A. I have stated that it was out of curiosity. 
Q. Who stimulated your curiosity? A. Mr. Bacon. 
Q. Mr. who? A. Mr. Bacon, superintendent of the alms- 
house, told me that I was wanted to come in here and give my 
testimony, and he showed me — 
Q. Before or after you talked with the old woman? A. It 
was before. 
Q. How long? A. I have no objection, sir, to stating all 
that I know about it, which was just this. I am a very unwill- 
ing witness here. 
Gov. Butler. I am content you shall be, sir ; it is all right. 
The Witness. If you will let me state it I will tell you ; it 
will save you lots of time. When I reached the institution yes- 
terday, Mr. Bacon gave me the subpoena of the sergeant-at- 
arms to appear here to-day. I said I knew nothing at all about 
it. I had seen these women. I had that certain women 
had formerly lived at Tewksbury. I had always understood 
that they were clean and well clothed when they came in; I 
had heard it spoken of various times. I had attended some of 
these women. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, I don’t want you, as an un- 
willing witness, to put in everything. Now, if you will answer 
my questions I will be much obliged to you? A. That is all I 
know about it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1907 
Q. Pardon me ; that is not anything I was asking you about. 
Answer my question, Mr. unwilling witness. This is it. After 
you got your subpoena you talked with this old woman ? A. I 
think I talked with her after I got my subp<ena. 
Q. And you talked with several others? A. Yes, sir; 
three or four. 
Q. In order to qualify yourself as a witness? A. In order 
that I might know — 
Q. You didn’t know anything when you were summoned, 
and you went and made inquiries in order to know something to 
testify? That is it, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The witness was summoned, and didn’t know anything. 
Then he went and talked with some old women in order to find 
out something that he could tell. And now you swear you are 
an unwilling witness ? A. I didn’t want to come here. 
Q. I know you didn’t. If you had told them you didn’t 
know anything, they probably would not have summoned you. 
Being an unwilling witness you went and qualified yourself so 
you might be called; was not that it? A. I went and talked 
with the women. 
Q. In order to qualify yourself to tell something here in 
favor of this institution. That was so, was it not? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Well, now, what made you do that? A. What made 
me do it? 
Q. What made }Tou do it; yes, sir. A. I had no purpose 
except to satisfy mj^self. 
Q. Why did you do it if you had no purpose? A. 1 be- 
lieved they were well treated — 
Q. Nothing more? A. — from what I had heard. 
Q. I will come to that in a moment. Why did yon do it? If 
you had heard beforehand, what did you want to go and qualify 
yourself afterwards for? Were you asked to do it? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Unwilling to come here, you went and qualified yourself 
in this way. IIow many in your institution, do you know, came 
from Tewksbury? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. About how many? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Cannot tell that. How many did you talk with? A. 
Three or four. 
Q. Are there double or treble that number there? A. Prob- 
ably double that number. 1908 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What?- A. I presume double that number. 
Q. The old woman was one. What is her name? A. I 
cannot tell 3Tou. 
Q. Cannot tell. Who next did you talk with? A. An- 
other old woman in the old ladies’ room. I could not tell her 
name. 
Q. Another old woman. Who else did you talk with? A. 
Perhaps one more ; I don’t recollect. 
Q. What? Perhaps one more? It was onl\'yesterday. A. 
I presume I talked with three. 
Q. You cannot remember any other ? A. I remember this 
old woman. 
Q. These two old women. Now, we will take the first one 
of these nameless old women. How old is she? A. Seventy 
or seventy-five years old. 
Q. What is the matter with her ? A. She is old and de- 
bilitated ; she has bad eyes, and she is weak and old. 
Q. How is her mind? A. Somewhat impaired, I think. 
Q. A weak old woman with impaired mind. And there 
is where you went for information was it? Don’t you think it 
would have been better to have taken some young woman who 
has not an impaired mind? Now, try t’other woman ; you 
haven’t told us about her. How old is she? A. She is sixty 
or seventy, I think. 
Q. Seventy-five? A. Sixty or seventy. 
Q. Somewhere from sixty to seventy. What is the matter 
with her? A. I don’t know that anything is. 
Q. You have not told us what she said, and I shall not ask 
you. Is her mind impaired? A. I don’t think it is. She 
talked very intelligently. 
Q. This one talked very intelligently ; and you haven’t told 
us, and Mr. Brown has not. asked you to tell us, what the intel- 
ligent one told you. A. I did not say the other woman was 
not intelligent. 
Q. Intelligent as a person with impaired mind could be. 
Well, this old lady is so blind she can’t read,— can she? A. 1 
think not. 
Q. Did you tell her, did you say to her: Now do you want 
to go back there, madam, and when you die be taken down to 
the Harvard Medical School to be looked over by a lot of 
Harvard students and cut up? A. No, sir. 
Q. You didn’t put that before her, did you ? You didn’t 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1909 
give her the true condition of things at all? A. Well, I asked 
her what her opinion was of Tewksbury. 
Q. She said that she thought Tewksbury was about as good 
as Dorchester poorliouse ; she didn’t see much difference, but 
rather preferred Tewksbury on the whole, because she was more 
used to that sort of thing? A. She didn’t say that. 
Q. Or because it was more like home. A. She knew more 
people there, and it seemed more like home. 
Q. She knew more people there, and she would seem more at 
home to be among people she did know, rather than to be 
among strangers. Now, Doctor, didn’t she say that everything 
was very fine there,—very nice? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did not? Didn’t she give your institution a little crack- 
ing up and say’: Everything is very nice here, and it is very 
nice there ; but I know more people there. A. I don’t recol- 
lect that she did. 
Q. But the ground of her going back to Tewksbury was that 
she knew more people there. Do you know whether she had 
learned that the Marshes were out now? A. 1 didn’t ask her. 
Q. Did you tell her? A. No. 
Q. Whether she knows that or not you don’t know? A. 
No. 
Q. If she was intelligent, and her mind wras not too much 
impaired, don’t you think that would make a difference? A. I 
doubt if it would. 
Q. That is a matter of doubt in your mind. Now, Doctor, 
were you educated at Harvard? A. No, sir; I was not. I 
attended one course there. 
Q. What? A. I attended one course at Harvard. 
Q. Where was the other? A. In New York, at the College 
of Physicians and Surgeons. 
Q. When were you at Harvard? A. In 1862 and ’63. 
Q. What? A. Between 1862 and 1863, I believe. 
Q. In 1862 and ’63? A, Yes, sir. 
Q. At the Harvard Medical School? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever see any human skin at Harvard? A. Beg 
pardon. 
Q. Did you ever see any human skin at Harvard? A. Hu- 
man skin ? 
Q. Yes, sir; tanned. A. No, sir. 
Q. Ever look in the museum? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Haven’t they some there? A. I could not state. 1910 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What? A. I could not say. 
Q. Uo you know whether you ever looked at any or not? 
A. I have seen tanned human skin in m3: life. 
Q. Where did you see it? A. 1 saw some that a man was 
showing once. 
Q. Where was that? A. A medical student, I believe,— 
in New York. 
Q. Ever see an3r at Harvard? A. No, sir. 
Q. Ever see an\T in the hands of a Harvard student? A. 
1 don’t recollect that I ever did. I never saw but perhaps 
one or two pieces of human skin tanned. 
Q. Was that made up into any article of luxury, or comfort, 
or discomfort? A. 1 believe I saw one that was stretched on 
a little tablet. 
Q. Stretched on a tablet? A. Yes, sir ; a tiny piece. 
Q. What? A. A tiny piece. 
Q. Now, Doctor, did 3*011 do dissecting at Harvard College? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. You did hot? A. No, sir. 
Q. I thought tiny did that the first 3Tear. A. The3r do. 
Q And you didn’t? A. I didn’t. I had previously done it. 
Q. Where? A. At Manchester, N. H. 
Q. Not in any of our institutions? A. It was not in any 
institution ; it was under a private preceptor. 
Q. Not in our institutions? Did anybody suggest to 3*011 to 
go around and talk with these old women? A. No, sir. 
(4. It was simply a voluntaiy matter on 3Tour part? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
The Chairman. I think we had better adjourn. 
Mr. Brown. The next witness will be very short; I shall 
not want more than five minutes with him. 
The Chairman. You may call him then. 
Testimony of Joel L. Bacon (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Wliat is your full name? A. Joel L. Bacon. 
Q. And you are overseer of the Austin farm? A. 1 am. 
How long have you been there ? A Seven years. 
Q. You frequently have people come from Tewksbury to 
the Austin farm? A. Well, I would not swear to only one 
batch. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1911 
When was that? A. That was July 16, 1881. 
Q. How many were there? A. Nine. 
Q. All women? A. All women. 
Q. What was there condition? A. Good. 
Q. How as to their clothing? A. Their clothing was good ; 
I didn’t see them when they first arrived ; I saw them soon after, 
and the matron told me they came clean and well clothed. 
Q. You saw them afterwards? A. Yes sir; I saw them 
very soon afterwards. 
Q. Are they any of them at the institution now? A. Five. 
Q. What became of the other four ? A. Two of them died 
and two took their discharge. 
Q. From the Austin farm? A. Yes. sir. 
Q. Of the five who are there now, or who have been there, 
have you ever heard any complaint of want of food or clothing, 
mismanagement, or anything of that kind? A. Never a word 
of complaint in the world. 
Q. Have you ever heard anything favorable to the institu- 
tion from them? A. Yes, sir. That very day they came they 
were feeling badly to think they were removed from Tewksbury, 
and told me they didn’t want to stay. That was within half an 
hour after they arrived. 
Q. Arrived where? A. At the Austin farm; I told them 
we would try to make them comfortable and I guessed they 
would get over it in a few days and be happy and contented. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Who were these people? A. Inmates. 
Q. I know ; but what kind of women are they? A. Good 
old ladies. 
Q. Were they all of one nationality? A. No, sir. 
Q. What were they ? A. Some of them were 
Irish and some American. 
Q. They were all old ladies? A. Yes, sir ; we don’t have 
anything else but women. 
Q. How old were they? A. Somewhere between forty-five 
and eighty ; one of them I think was eighty ; perhaps there was 
not any of them less than sixty, but I cannot say. 
Q. And they came there in 1881 ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How came they to come there ? A. Because they were 
city charges. 1912 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What? A. Because they belonged to the city of Bos- 
ton. 
Q. How long had they been at Tewksbury ? A. They had 
been there a good many years—that is some of them ; one of 
them told me she went there in 1861. 
Q. You refer to the same farm that the doctor has been 
talking about? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Those old ladies came there and they said they were 
comfortable at Tewksbury. Hospital patients? A. No, sir; 
not at the time. 
Q. How came you to ask them whether they were well 
treated unless you supposed the}' might not have been ? A. 
I did suppose they were. 
Q. Then why did you ask them? A. Because they were 
feeling bad. 
Q. Because they were feeling bad? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Feeling bad about what? A. That they were removed 
from Tewksbury. 
Q. They were feeling bad. Why did you ask them? A. 
Because I supposed that was the reason, — that they were well 
treated. 
Q. So you asked them that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. From 1881, when was your attention first called to these 
women? A. Within half an hour after they arrived. 
Q. When was your attention next called to them? A. 
Right along ; every da}' almost; there is not a day passes, not 
many days, but what I talk with them. 
Q. What? A. There ai*e not many days but what I have 
more or less conversation with the inmates. 
Q. Now, then, when was your attention first called to what 
these old ladies said in order that you might repeat it again ? 
A. The day they arrived there. 
Q. When next after that ? A. At various times. 
Q. By whom? A. I don’t understand your question. 
Q. I see you didn’t. When was your attention first called 
to what they said in order to repeat it here as a witness? A. 
To appear here as a witness ? 
Q. Yes ; when was your attention first called to the conver- 
sation that you have told us about, as to what these old ladies 
said? A. A gentleman called at my place, I should say, about 
two weeks ago ; I could not say what day. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1913 
Q. Who was that gentleman ? A. I think he told me his 
name was Stone. 
Q. You never saw him before? A. Never. 
Q. And he asked you about it, did he, — what you knew ? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Didn’t say a word to you about that? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. And you didn’t tell him anything? A. I asked him, 
“ What do they want of me? And he said: “I understand 
there have been inmates transferred from Tewksbury to your 
institution and they want you to come and testify what condi- 
tion they came in.” 
Q. What was the condition? A. Yes, sir. I told him I 
could tell them very little about it, except that they had spoken 
well of the institution, and that they came to our institution in 
good order. 
Q Did they come directly? A. Directly from Tewksbury. 
Q. How long have you been at the institution? A. Seven 
years. 
Q. Do you know any one in Tewksbury, — any of the offi- 
cers? A. No, sir. 
Q. You said that these old ladies said they were sorry. Did 
they tell you the reason why? A. They had been at Tewks- 
bury so many years that they liked there,. And I said : “Then 
of course, you were well treated.” 
Q. How? A. I said: “Then of course you were well 
treated.” They said: “Yes; and I wish I had been left 
there.” 
Q. Did they say that they knew the people there, and there- 
fore it was more like home to them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They said that. That is the reason why they felt bad. 
Was one of these the woman that the doctor has been talking 
about, with sore eyes? A. She was one of them. I don’t 
know as I talked particularly with her. 
Q. Two died, and two have been discharged? A. Yes, 
sfr. 
Q. How many were there at first ? A. Nine. 
Q. All came at once? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When were you summoned here? A. Yesterday. 
Q. At the same time the doctor was ? A. The summons 
was left with me for the doctor. His and mine came together. 1914 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Then you are the man who summoned the doctor. A. I 
am the man who showed it to him ; I am the man who handed it 
to him. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
Adjourned to meet Friday, June 1, at 9.30 a.m. 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
1915 
FORTY-SECOND HEARING. 
Friday, June 1. 
The committee met in the Green Hoorn at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
The Chairman, Call your witness, Mr. Brown. 
Testimony of Alexander H. Rice (sworn) 
Q. You were formerly Governor of Massachusetts? A. I 
think I was, sir. 
Q. I ask you the question to make it appear on the record. 
In what years? A. In 1876, 1877, and 1878. 
Q. Three years. During those years did you make any 
visit to this institution at Tewksbury ? A. I did. 
Q. How many? A. I think 1 made two. 
Q. And in whose company, if in the company of any one, 
did you go there? A. In the company of members of the 
executive council. 
Q. And who were the members who visited Tewksbury with 
you on the first occasion? A. I am unable to state the names 
of the individuals, but according to my recollection the majority 
of the members of the council went. 
Q. Now, Governor, while you were there at either of these 
visits, did you make a personal examination of the quarters — 
an inspection of the entire institution? A. I did. 
Q. Now, will you go on in your own way and state precisely 
what you did? A. Well, I might state that all the informa- 
tion I have about Tewksbury is that which I obtained in my 
official intercourse. I don’t remember that I was ever there be- 
fore 1876, and I have never been there since. I think the first 
visit I made was in June, 1876, and I examined Tewksbury as 
I examined all the other institutions of the Commonwealth, as I 
visited them in turn. I think Tewksbury was the first one 
visited. Perhaps it is proper for me to say that I went first to 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1916 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Tewksbury because certain rumors had come to me that matters 
there were in an unsatisfactory condition. I went to Tewks- 
bury comparatively unannounced. I think a telegram was sent 
by my secretary on the afternoon of the day before I went (late 
in the afternoon) and I arrived there between eight and nine 
o’clock in the morning, according to m}r recollection ; but for 
some reason or other the telegram Was not delivered to Mr. 
Marsh, the superintendent, until about an hour before we ar- 
rived there. I do not know that I had ever seen Mr. Marsh 
before that day. I began the examination of the establishment 
in the cellar, and went all through that in its various depart- 
ments. 1 then went through and examined the kitchen; I 
mean by that, all parts of it, and substantially everything that 
was used there — the boilers, places for keeping food, and the 
utensils generally, and the condition of the kitchen as to 
whether it was clean and orderly or not. So through the 
dining-room, examining every part of it and whatever was used 
there, including the cutlery, and the crockery, and glass ware, 
and even the cloths used in serving—T mean by that, in wash- 
ing and wiping the dishes. I then went through the various 
other halls, the halls of the establishment where the inmates 
were collected, including the insane department, and the infant 
department; f examined them thoroughly. 1 then went to the 
dormitories, each and every one of them, and in each and every 
one of them I opened several beds in turn, taking off the out- 
side covering, then the next, then the sheets, looked at the mat- 
tresses and pillows, examined the state of the bedsteads and 
what was under the beds. I examined quite thoroughly the 
closets and furniture, and I went through the attics, and, in 
short, through every department of the institution. J might 
say right here, perhaps, that I have had considerable experience 
in connection with public institutions of various kinds. 
Q. Such as what? A. Before I became a member of the 
city council of Boston—back in 1853 or 1854 — I was one of 
the board of overseers of the lunatic asylum at South Boston ; 
and afterwards, during my two years in the mayoralty of this 
city, it became my duty to examine the public institutions of the 
city at all times. Since that time, or since 1867, I think, I 
have been president of the National Sailors’ Home, at Quincy. 
And I examined Tewksbury in the same manner in which I 
have been accustomed to examine other institutions. 
Q. Now, in going through the cellars of these various build- 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1917 
ings, did you make special examination of the bathing appara- 
tus? A. Well, not specially. I don’t know that I could say 
I examined them with an}7 more care than I examined other 
things. 
Q. Do you recall whether you did or not? A. I do not 
recollect particularly. 
Q. Do you recollect whether, when you made examination, 
you found individual bath-tubs? A. 1 do not recollect. 
Q. Do you recollect any bathing apparatus which you there 
examined? A. Only generally, that there were facilities for 
bathing. 
Q. Did you examine into the arrangements for cleansing and 
preserving the inmates’ clothing which they had when they went 
to the institution, if you recollect? A. I cannot say that I 
did ; but I have an indistinct impression about that. 
Q. Now take the diet as you found it at that time, and the 
condition of the kitchen; how was it and what was it? A. 
The institution in general and in particular, as far as I exam- 
ined it, was in excellent condition. 
Q. Did you have conversation with any inmates for the pur- 
pose of ascertaining their treatment which they had received? 
A. Yes ; not formal conversation, because there was no special 
occasion for that. I stood apart while the officers of the insti- 
tution were going through with those that accompanied me, for 
the purpose of getting the expression on the faces of the in- 
mates, as those officials passed by them and came into their 
presence. I have found by experience in other places, that the 
expression given by the countenances of the institutions very 
often interprets with considerable accuracy the treatment that 
they are accustomed to receive, or the estimation in which they 
hold the officers. And there was nothing in the appearance of 
the inmates, or in the expression of their faces, that indicated 
that they were not well treated, and that their relations were 
not those of harmony with the officers. 
Q. Did you examine into the mode of discipline in the insti- 
tution, as, for instance, the manner in which stubborn or refrac- 
tor}- persons were dealt with? A. My impression is, that 
among the insane there were some that had jackets upon them, 
or who were fastened — one or two — to protect themselves, or 
possibly others, from violence. 
Q. Do you think that you saw and inspected every room in 
the insane department? A. 1 think I did. 1918 
CHAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Do you recollect any cases where persons were confined 
in rooms by themselves, because they had lost the sense of what 
was proper and decent in life? A. I do not remember any at 
the time of my visit; no, sir. 
Q. Did you ascertain whether the insane had an}’ means of 
employment or amusement? A. Ido not remember that there 
was any employment beyond some service in the institution — 
you mean in trades? 
Q. In trades ; or any kind of amusement; anything to occu- 
py their minds. A. I do not remember anything that was un- 
usual in that respect. There is not very much that an insane 
person can do. 
Q. Now, taking your experience in examining public insti- 
tutions, I want to ask whether, in your judgment, the institution 
could have been put in the state of cleanliness in which you saw 
it within the time in which your announcement was made? A 
No ; that is impossible. I saw, it I think, in its ordinary condi- 
tion. I intended that it should be so. 
Q. Do you recollect whether Surgeon-General Dale went 
with you? A. I am not able to say, sir, as to persoyinel; I 
am rather of the impression that he did, but I am not sure. 
Q. Now, if you saw in that institution anything which you 
considered that it was your duty, in your official relation, or as a 
citizen of Massachusetts, to criticise and call to the attention of 
the officers, I wish you would tell what it was. A. Well, I 
found on the occasion of my visit that a very large number of 
the members of Mr. Marsh’s family were in the government of 
the institution ; as I thought, too many. And my recollection 
is that I suggested to Mr. Marsh, after going through the insti- 
tution, that there were too many members of his own family, in my 
opinion, in the governrpent. I could not discover in the institu- 
tution itself that there was any neglect of duty on the part of 
any of them ; but I thought it was unwise, if not improper, that 
so many members of any one family should be connected with 
the government of a public institution. I expressed that opin- 
ion to Mr. Marsh, and my recollection further is, that Mr. 
Marsh, shortly after that, retired,— he or the board or some one, 
retired two members of his family. 
Q. Do you recollect who they were? A. I have made no 
documentary reference since that visit, and it is now some five 
or six years ago. I think one of them was the physician, his 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1919 
daughter ; and, if my memory is correct, the other was a ma- 
tron. 
Q. Was it the matron of the sewing room, do 3*011 recollect; 
the wife of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr.? 
Gov. Butler. He don’t know. I ma3r be wrong, but I don’t 
think I am. 
The Witness No ; I am speaking now from recollection. 
I have conversed with nobody. 
Q. Now, with that exception, was there any other thing 
which 3*011 felt it 3*our dut3* to criticise? A. I do not remember 
that there was anything. I came away with the impression that 
the institution was in excellent condition. 
Q. Now, did 3*011 ever compare the diet list of the hospital 
at Tewksbury with the diet list of the Massachusetts General 
Hospital? A. I never did. 
Q. Or with the Boston Cit3* Hospital? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do your know of an3T reason wh\* the pauper sick at 
Tewksbury should not have all the articles of diet that would 
be served to a patient at the Massachusetts General Hospital or 
at the Boston Cit3* Hospital? A. I do not know wl)3* the diet 
should not be furnished that was prescribed b3* the physician 
there as in any other establishment. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think of any other question that 1 want 
to ask 3rou. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. If I understand 3*011, you sa}* you went on aecount 
of some rumors that were afloat against the condition of this in- 
stitution? A. I said that I visited that first for that reason. 
Q. You visited that first. Was there an3*thing more tangible 
than rumors that caused your visit there at all ? A. Well, I 
should go there in the ordinary course of 1113* official duties. 
Q. You got there at nine o’clock in the morning — between 
eight and nine. What time did 3*011 come awa3*? A. Some 
time in the afternoon, I think. 
Q. Well, about what time in the afternoon? A. I should 
say two or three o’clock. 
Q. Had dinner in the meantime, I suppose? A. We had 
a lunch ; yes, sir. 
Q. At the institution. Did all the members — all those who 
went with 3*011 — make all the inspection that you did ? A. I 
think the3* generally accompanied me. 1920 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did the officials accompany you—Mr. Marsh and Mr. 
Thomas Marsh? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When have you had your attention called to this matter 
since? A. Since? 
Q. Yes; since your visit. A. Not specifically. 
Q. Not particularly at all, I suppose? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, did 3011 examine into the question whether 
old Mrs. Marsh stole the clothing of the inmates? A. Excuse 
me, are you addressing me? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. Did you examine — 
The Witness. You called me doctor. I am not accustomed 
to answer to that title. I thought you were addressing some 
other one. 
Gov. Butler. No. I was asking you whether you examined 
into that. I was making a memorandum at the moment. I beg 
your pardon. 
The Witness. No, sir ; I did not. I never had heard any 
such rumor. 
Q. Did you examine into the question whether Tom Marsh 
was a libertine? A. No ; I never heard of such a thing. 
Q. Did you examine into the question whether Nellie Marsh 
had killed quite a number of the people — insane inmates — hos- 
pital inmates? A. No; 1 did not. 
Q. Didn’t hear of that. Did you examine into the question 
whether the inmates had been shut up for a long time in cells? 
A. No ; I did not. 
Q. Did you examine into the question whether there was any 
deficiency in the accounts? A. No; that didn’t come to me. 
Q. Did you examine into the question whether an}' of the 
inmates had been got with child? A. No : I did not. 
Q. Did you examine into the question whether any of the 
inmates had been unkindly treated by old Mrs. Marsh? A. 
There were no complaints made to me. 
Q. Now, do you mean to say, Governor Rice — what time 
did you say that visit was? A. I think it was in June, as near 
as I can remember. 
Q. June, 3 876? A. 1876, I think. 
Q. And you say no complaints of that sort had been made 
to you? A. By the inmates? 
Q. Had there been by anybody else ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Pretty sure about that, are you, Governor Rice? A 
Well, do you mean — 1883.] 
HOUSE No. 300. 
1921 
Q. About these very particulars I am inquiring about. A. 
No. I alluded to some rumors. 
Q. Well, leave the rumors out. A. No. 
Q. Now, Governor Rice, hadn’t there been a direct report of 
the Hoard of State Charities, signed by its chairman, in which 
all these accusations were made, and in which you were asked 
to go and examine into them? A. Yes; there was a report 
from the Board of State Charities. 
Q. Were not all these accusations I have asked you about con- 
tained in it, and you were asked to go and examine into them? 
A. Yes — 
Q. Just answer my question. A. Yes ; there was a report 
of the Board of State Charities. 
Q. In which all these accusations I have asked you about 
were made, and you were asked to go and examine into them? 
And you have told us the only examination you did make. 
[Presenting a file of documents.] Is this a volume of executive 
documents for that year of your administration ? A. It seems 
to be. The date is 1<S76. 
Gov. Butler. Very well. Then if it is I will read a few 
pages from this book, addressed to His Excellency the Governor- 
[Reads.] 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 
Office of the Board of State Charities, 
State House, Boston, March 23, 1876. 
To His Excellency the Governor. 
Sir: At a meeting of the Board of State Charities, on Friday,the 
10th inst., there was appointed a committee of the Board to bring to 
your official notice certain facts and allegations concerning the State 
Almshouse at Tewksbury. The votes of the Board were as fol- 
lows : — 
“Voted, That a committee, consisting of the Chairman, Dr. Allen and Mr. Don- 
nelly, he instructed to prepare a draft of a communication with recommendations 
concerning the State Almshouse, addressed to the Governor, and submit the 
same at the next meeting of the Board, and that the report of the Executive 
Committee, prepared by the Chairman, be submitted to that committee; 
“Voted, That the Board ask His Excellency the Governor carefully to consider 
whether the administration of the State Almshouse ought not to be changed; 
“ Voted, That in communicating the above vote to the Governor, he be informed 
that the Board are preparing a statement covering the whole subject, which they 
will hereafter present to His Excellency.” 
In accordance with these votes, the statements and recommenda- 
tions which follow have been prepared and submitted to the Board 1922 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
of State Charities, and the Board has approved them. These we now 
present to your Excellency in the name of the Board, asking that 
you will give them your early and careful consideration The 
matters herein detailed are believed by the Board to be very impor- 
tant, and such as require prompt action by the Executive in order to 
remedy grave evils, and to prevent the recurrence of proved and 
serious abuses in the State Almshouse at Tewksbury. This estab- 
lishment, first opened in 1854, for the reception of the unsettled and 
vagrant poor of the northeastern counties of Massachusetts, has since 
become, in process of time, and by reason of changes in our statutes 
and in their execution, a great infirmary, where the chronic insane, to 
the number of about three hundred, the sick State poor to the number 
of more than one hundred, and the foundling infants from all parts of 
the Commonwealth are now collected. Such an aggregation of 
these helpless wards of the State gives a great opportunity for neg- 
lect and abuse, and demands the most unceasing vigilance on the 
part of all the official persons, who are in any degree responsi- 
ble for their care and treatment Feeling this responsibility, though 
unable under the existing statutes to take all the steps necessary to 
insure the proper treatment of these poor persons, the Board of Char- 
ities has, from time to time, interposed, to remedy evils and put a stop 
to abuses. And now, in the name of these sick and insane persons, 
we ask your Excellency to interpose. 
In the course of these inquiries, and on previous occasions, in the 
performance of its official duty, this board has encountered a whole 
class of neglects and abuses, some slight and some very serious, 
which it is powerless to remedy. This board has no power of re- 
moval, or even of suspension from their functions of those holding 
office at the almshouse; and the board has gradually come to the 
conclusion that removal from office is the only permanent and 
sure remedy for the evils to which your Excellency’s attention is now 
directed. Having gone to the limit of its own power in the matter, 
the board now appeals to you, who have authority to remove and 
appoint, and directs your attention to the apparent necessity for 
exercising that authority at the present time. 
The late chairman of the board, Dr. S. G. Howe — 
Gov. Butler. Who was famous in connection with the deaf- 
mute school over here in South Boston, I believe? 
The Witness. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] 
— The late chairman of the board, Dr. S. G. Howe, was, perhaps, 
more keenly alive to the sanitary and moral defects at Tewksbury 
than any of his colleagues; his own acquaintance with the inside 
working of a public establishment being very intimate and sugges- 
tive. During the last year, and in one of the last months that he 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1923 
served on the board, Dr. Howe made a motion for an investigation 
by the board into the condition of things at the state almshouse. As 
entered on the records of the board, Dr. Howe’s motion, with the 
introduction by the secretary, Mr. Andrews, is as follows (under date 
of April 7, 1875) : 
“ On statements made by the secretary (in his monthly report), there came up 
a long discussion relative to the condition and management of the state alms- 
house, whereupon Dr. Howe offered the following vote as expressing generally 
the views of the situation held by the members of the board, which he asked 
might lie over to the next regular meeting: ” 
The Witness. What is the date of that? 
Gov. Butler. March 23, 1876. 
The Witness. The document you are just now reading? 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I am still going on. This is the rumor 
which sent 37eu to Tewksbury. [Reading.] 
“ That this Board make an investigation into the condition and management of 
the State Almshouse in Tewksbury, in regard to the following matters : — 
“ 1. The economy and efficiency with which the whole establishment is con- 
ducted, and its existing rules and regulations. 
“ 2. The sanitary condition and management of the asylum for the insane 
and of the hospitals for the sick. 
“ 3. The harmony or want of harmony and subordination among the officers 
and employees, particularly in the medical department, including the physical 
condition of the inmates. 
“ 4. The financial management of the almshouse during the present and pre- 
vious years, the character and defects of its buildings, and its requirements for 
the future in these respects.” 
The state of Dr. Howe’s health in the spring of 1875 no doubt 
prevented him from urging the passage of his motion, and early in 
June he resigned his position as a member of the board. Although 
no formal investigation has been entered upon by the board since 
Dr. Howe’s resignation, yet the substance of what he sought to learn 
has been ascertained by members of the board, as the following 
pages in part will show7. 
A STATEMENT OF FACTS AND ALLEGATIONS CONCERNING THE MANAGEMENT 
of the State Almshouse at Tewksbury. 
For many years the hoard of state charities has been dissatisfied with the 
sanitary condition and the medical management of the state almshouse, and has 
sought, in various ways, to improve them. During an official visit made by the 
board on the ‘22d of September, 1873 [the late Dr. Howe, Dr. Allen, Mr. Edward 
Earle, and Mr. F. B. Sanborn being the members present], the sanitary condition 
was found to be worse than usual, and was censured by the Board, unanimously, 
in the following vote : 
“ Voted, that in the opinion of this Board, the ventilation, of the hospital for 
the sick, and of the lunatic asylum at the Tewksbury State Almshouse, is so de- 
fective as to be positively insalubrious, and ought to be immediately improved; 1924 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
that the privies and water closets are offensive and in bad condition, and the dor- 
mitories infested with vermin to a degree requiring instant attention; and that 
there is need of additional supervision and nursing in these departments. 
“ Voted, that the above vote be communicated to the superintendent, Mr. Marsh, 
at once, and that the chairman communicate it to the governor, with such com- 
ments as he may deem expedient.” 
In compliance with this vote (which was at once communicated to 
the superintendent), Dr. Howe, then chairman of the board, wrote a 
letter to Governor Washburn, of which the following is a copy": — 
Letter to the Governor prom the Chairman of the Board of State 
Charities. 
S. Boston, Sept. 24tli, 1873. 
Ilis Excellency Wm. B. Washburn. 
Sir : — In obedience to a vote of the board of state charities, I transmit to 
your Excellency a vote passed at their meeting, September 22. 
I am impelled by duty to the unfortunate, to ask your personal attention to the 
matter referred to by the board. Nothing short of the evidence of your senses 
can give you a correct idea of the foul and pestiferous atmosphere in which Mas- 
sachusetts confines her insane wards. 
A private individual of intelligence and wealth, who should so confine a de- 
pendant insane relative, might be indicted for cruel abuse; and, if the State were 
indictable by a grand jury, she should be indicted for so confining over three 
hundred wards. 
I beg that when you next visit the establishment, it should be without previous 
notice; that it should be on some day in the middle of the week, and as early in 
the morning as possible. 
Indeed, we cannot have sensible evidence of the mephitic condition of the at- 
mosphere of the principal halls, without visiting the dormitories between mid- 
night and the hour for opening the windows. 
But at whatever hour you go, fail not to enter the closets in the department for 
the insane, and remain as many seconds, or minutes, as you can without nausea 
and suffocation. 
If you come out with any power of thought left, and consider that the con- 
densed mephitic stench there constantly generated, has no sufficient egress, but 
is continually and slowly permeating the atmosphere which the unfortunate lu- 
natics have to breathe, you will then understand one cause of the fearful and 
undue mortality among them. 1 say undue, for the usual explanation of the high 
death rate, viz., by the supposition that these unfortunates are only the sweep- 
ings of the lunatic hospitals,— the feeblest of all,— is not satisfactory. It is an 
assumption which will not bear the test of examination by statistics. 
Now, this nauseous and unwholesome condition of the atmosphere is disgrace- 
ful to the State, because it is unnecessary. These apartments can' be made as 
sweet as those at the State House, but not by any means now at command. 
The fault is not in the administration of the establishment, but in the lack of 
structural means. 1 say structural, because no empirical contrivances, no chim- 
ney-pots nor ventilation holes, nor any temporary devices of any kind, will cure 
the evil. 
There must be forced ventilation, either by fans driven continually by steam, 
or by tall chimneys in which fire is constantly burning. 
The hospital can be easily and thoroughly ventilated, by carrying up the chim- 
ney of the boiler-house,— which is about eighty feet high,— still higher, so as to 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1925 
create a powerful upward draught, and then by connecting the wards with it by 
proper tubes. 
The building for lunatics should be provided with a tall chimney, kept con- 
stantly heated by fire or by1 gas, and with flues leading into it from every ward. 
This is a matter which any competent architect can manage, provided he is not 
restricted about the height of the chimney by consideration of cost. The chim- 
ney must be tall enough to create a draught that will suck straight upward the 
hairs on the head of a man who approaches the mouth. 
Respectfully, 
(Signed) Samuel G. Howe, 
Chairman Board of State Charities. 
In consequence of this appeal from Dr. Howe, Governor Wash- 
burn and Lieutenant Governor Talbot did visit the State almshouse 
a few weeks after the date of this letter. They found some things 
better and some worse than when the board visited Tewksbury; 
they recommended some changes of structure, rearrangement of 
closets, etc., which removed a part of the evils complained of, but by 
no means all. It soon appeared that there were faults of adminis- 
tration, not seen at first by Dr. Howe, and that these were more 
serious than the Board of Charities had suspected. 
During the summer of 1874, while Dr. Howe was still chairman of 
the board, Dr. J. D. Nichols, who had been physician at the State 
almshouse since May, 1868, made the following statements in writing 
to a member of the Board:— 
“ Mrs. Marsh is in the habit of appropriating the effects of those who die or 
abscond from the almshouse, to the use of herself and family. This can be 
proved by the testimony of those who have from time to time occupied the posi- 
tion of Matron of the Baggage Room. Among them I will name Nancy Foster, 
who is now in Meriden, Ct.; Anna Roberts, Lowell, Mass., and Mrs. Aaron 
Noyes, Tewksbury. 
“ In the summer of 1868, a young, feeble-minded woman came to the alms- 
house with child. Her bodily health was good. She received such personal 
abuse from the matron in the bathing-room, that she,came out flowing badly 
and was sent to the hospital, where by prompt medical attendance her hemor- 
rhage was arrested, and after a few weeks was discharged from the hospital 
perfectly well. The first time she went to the bathing-room after her discharge 
she was again abused by the same matron, and had again to be sent to the 
hospital, where she miscarried and died. There is no doubt in the mind of the 
physician that her death was caused by the abuse she had received from the 
matron in the bathing-room. The physician promptly reported the outrage to 
the superintendent, but the matron was not removed. Other instances of subse- 
quent ill-treatment of inmates might be mentioned, but the matron remained 
some two years, and resigned. 
“Thomas J. Marsh, Jr.,assistant superintendent, is a notorious libertine. His 
wife has a salary as matron of the sewing-room, but her position is nearly a 
sinecure. She is absent from the institution a great deal of her time, and when 
there, spends little time in the sewing-room. 
“ The libertinism of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., can be proved by Mary Tinan and 
Catherine Donahoe,—both now in Boston,—and Margaret Hogan, now an inmate 
at Tewksbury. 
Statement of Dr. J. D. Nichols. 1926 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
“ In the fall of 1868 a new clerk was employed at Tewksbury, and on exam- 
ining the books, a deficiency of fifteen hundred dollars was discovered. That 
clerk was Henry J. Moulton, by whom the fact can be proved.” 
The charges of Dr. Nichols were read to the Board of Charities 
and entered on its records. They were also brought to the notice of 
the Board of Inspectors of the Almshouse by Mr. Sanborn, the pres- 
ent chairman of the Board of Charities, who communicated orally 
with Mr. Elliot, an inspector, on the subject, in the summer of 1874. 
The inspectors considered the matter, according to Mr. Elliot, and, 
in consequence of these and other charges, declined, as Mr. Elliot 
said, to increase the salary of the assistant superintendent. Whether 
they took any other action we are not informed. 
The charges preferred by Dr. Nichols related generally to matters 
in regard to which the evil had been done some years before, and 
could not now be remedied. There have been other scandals arising 
from time to time, however, the proof of which seemed to be com- 
plete, and which pointed to a very lax discipline and a mournful 
want of sanitary knowledge among the officers at Tewksbury. Dur- 
ing the year 1874, it is alleged and not denied that one of the male 
inmates of the Almshouse, having previously made an assignation 
with one of the female convalescing patients in the hospital, did one 
evening obtain access to the female hospital, and was on the point 
of getting into the bed of this patient when he was discovered and 
ejected. 
in September, or October, 1874, the imprisonment of the insane 
women by order of the physician to the insane, Dr. Whittaker, began 
to take place. In regard to these cases the executive committee 
made a report at the time which is herewith submitted :— 
“ Boston, January 6th, 1875. 
“ The executive committee to whom was referred the matter of alleged ill- 
treatment of insane patients at Tewksbury, would report as follows 
“ That on the 3d of December the General Agent visited Tewksbury at the re- 
quest of the committee, and found two women,—Alice Ferrin and Catherine 
•Walsh,—in confinement for refusing to work; both being unmistakably insane 
patients. He requested the Superintendent to discharge them, and both Mr 
Marsh and Dr. Whittaker promised that they should be discharged that night. 
They were discharged either that night or the next day, and the facts thus far 
were reported verbally to the Board at the special meeting on the 14th of 
December. On the 18th of December the Chairman visited Tewksbury and 
learned from Dr. Whittaker, physician of the insane, the following facts con- 
cerning these and other cases :— 
“ I. No such imprisonment of insane patients for refusing to work seems to 
have taken place before the appointment of Dr. Whittaker, who said that he was 
responsible for it. He did not profess to regard it as punishment, and Mr. 
Marsh said he had not considered these imprisonments as “ cases of discipline,” 
which, according to the By-laws of the Almshouse, he is required to keep a 
record of. No record has been' kept by any one, and it was not easy to get the 
precise names and dates. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1927 
“ II. So far as could be learned, the following persons were the only ones who 
had been so imprisoned, seven in all:—1, Julia Cohane; 2, Alice Ferrin; 3, 
Catherine Walsh; 4, Hoffney; 5, Catherine Sullivan ; 6, Catherine Cunning- 
ham ; 7, Thomas Keneen. All these persons, except Catherine Cunningham, 
were considered by Dr. Whittaker as insane Julia Cohane was admitted to 
the asylum from Salem, Nov. 13, 1873; Alice Ferrin — 45 years old — has been 
insane for a dozen years, at least. She has been twice in the Worcester Hospital, 
but was transferred to Tewksbury from Northampton, July 16, 1874. Catherine 
Walsh was transferred from Taunton September 4,1872. Catherine Sullivan was 
lately transferred from one of the hospitals. Catherine Cunningham was admit- 
ted as a patient at Worcester, from Lowell, in 1870; transferred to Tewksbury, 
Sept. 1, 1871; and sentenced to Bridgewater, as a sane person, November 24, 
1874. 
“ Alice Ferrin and Catherine Walsh were imprisoned for the same length of 
time (between eight and nine weeks), the former in a large cell in the asylum 
building, the latter in one of the small cells on the men’s side of the main build- 
ing. Catherine Sullivan, Catherine Cunningham and Julia Cohane, were all im- 
prisoned in cells on the men’s side, and all, according to Dr. Whittaker, for two 
or three weeks each. The two men were imprisoned for about a wfcek each,— 
Hoffney for striking patients, and Keneen for assaulting Dr. Whittaker. 
“ Upon visiting the cells on the men’s side, where a majority of these women 
were imprisoned, it appeared that there was no access to the corridor upon which 
they open except by passing through a room constantly occupied by the male 
inmates; and that Joseph Howard, a middle-aged inmate, acted as turnkey, and 
carried to the prisoners in the cells whatever they wanted. No woman had access 
to them; they had no furniture in the cell except a bucket, and at night a bed. 
Their food was bread and water. In regard to Catherine Cunningham, who was 
reported by Dr. Whittaker as not insane, it appeared by the asylum register that she 
was received from Worcester as an incurable insane person, and no record of her 
recovery was made. The physician at Bridgewater, where she now is, regards 
her as insane, and so does Mrs. Leonard, the matron. She is now at work there, 
and it has not been necessary to employ force or confinement to keep her at 
work. 
“It did not appear that Dr. Whittaker had any purpose in these imprisonments 
except to secure the proper amount of labor from each of the women imprisoned. 
On the other hand, both he and Mr. Marsh seem to have forgotten and neglected 
wholly the record of “ cases of discipline,” required by the By-Laws of the Alms- 
house; no dates of confinement and release even, being kept. Nor was Dr. 
Whittaker apparently sensible that there was any impropriety in what had been 
done in this matter, or that the interests of his patients or the laws of the State 
required any different treatment. It is promised that no such action shall be 
taken hereafter. 
Respectfully submitted by 
(Signed) F. B. Sanborn, 
(Signed) S. C. Wrightington, 
(Signed) Sidney Andrews, 
Executive Committee." 
Q. Was Mr. Andrews jour private secretary ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Of the governor before or after you? A. I think of 
the governor second before me; Mr. Washburn. Will your 1928 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Excellency please say to whom that communication which you 
have just read was addressed ? 
Gov. Butler. To His Excellency the Governor, who was 
governor of Massachusetts in March, 1876. 
The Witness. Well, I beg your pardon — 
The Chairman. I understood it to be — 
Gov. Butler. This is part of a communication addressed to 
Gov. Rice; which had been previously addressed to Gov. 
Washburn without effect. [Applause.] 
The Witness. Precisely. 
The Chairman. Doorkeeper, watch for applause, and put 
out of the room any man or woman whom you find applauding. 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, to that is added a defence of 
Tewksbury by the officers. 
Q. Now, those were the matters which you had called to 
your attention by the board of state charities ; and you have 
told us how long you were employed in investigating them, even 
to seeing how they washed and wiped the cups and saucers and 
tumblers ; that was so, was it not? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think I shall have to trouble 30U 
any further, Governor.— Oh, 3ms, 1 shall. 
Q. Now, after this communication was made to you, did 
you appoint Mr. F. B. Sanborn as chairman of the board of 
state charities, or a member of it? A. I think I did not. 
Q. Quite sure about that? A. I speak from recollection 
only, sir. 
Q. Now, pardon me. Let us see if I cannot aid you there. 
Didn’t 3tou appoint him, and didn’t he refuse to take it? Let 
us see. [Turning to the tile of executive documents.] A. If 
you can refresh my memory. 
Gov. Butler. Let us see if I cannot refresh your memory. 
[Reads.] 
Concord, Oct. 2, 1876. 
Hon. A. H. Rice, Governor of Massachusetts. 
Sir,— Understanding that several of ray friends, and others whom 
I hardly recognize as such, have been recommending your Excellency 
to reappoint me a member of the State Board of Charities, it seems 
proper that I should frankly state my own position, in order that no 
person (and most of all your Excellency) may fail to understand it> 
I have no personal expectation or desire to be reappointed; \'et in 
deference to the wish of my colleagues, with some of whom I have 
labored for thirteen years to reform the public charities of Massachu- 
setts, I have not felt free wholly to decline further service. But one 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1929 
thing I must say, and I know you will pardon me if I say it too 
bluntly. Much as I might value an appointment from your Excellency 
(such as I first received from our lamented friend, Governor Andrew, 
and afterwards from Governors Bullock and Claflin), I could not 
accept it if Messrs. Francis H. Nourse and George P. Elliot should 
continue to hold office as inspectors of the State almshouse at 
Tewksbury. These persons, by their own admission, have been 
guilty of long-continued neglect of duty and transgression of the by- 
laws of their almshouse, in consequence of which, as I believe, 
several helpless woman, doubly unfortunate by reason of poverty 
and insanity, have suffered illegal imprisonment or death. The 
general facts concerning this painful matter were communicated to 
you by the Board of Charities, of which I was then chairman. 
I could not now consent to accept a new appointment, which would 
require me to maintain official relations with persons who, to my own 
knowledge, have ignored and violated a public charitable trust which 
I consider sacred. If they are worthy to hold the State’s commission, 
I am not; and I am quite ready to leave the decision of that question 
with your Excellency. 
With much respect. 
F. B. Sanborn. 
Q. Now, does that refresh your mind, Governor? A. I 
don’t remember that I reappointed him. 
Gov. Butler. Let me try another letter, then. [Reads.] 
Boston, Oct. 26, 1876. 
Hon. A. H. Rice, Governor of Massachusetts. 
Dear Sir, — I said to you on Saturday last that I could give you 
the names of the two women who have given birth to illegitimate 
children (begotten in the State almshouse) during the present year. 
And then he goes on to give them. 
Q. Now, then, didn’t he say, in so many words, that these 
two men were Elliot and Nourse, inspectors of the Tewksbury 
almshouse, and that if they remained inspectors he would not 
serve? A. I do not remember distinctly; but whatever the 
record says, sir, I should abide by. 
Gov. Butler. I believe that is all. 
Mr. Brown. Will you let me see that volume? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. That is not the only volume, I 
want to tell you. 
Mr. Brown. Oh, no; I have seen six or seven more, and 
looked through them. 1930 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. This letter, of thirty-six pages, as I see here, was signed 
h>3r F. B. Sanborn, chairman, and S. C. Wrightington, acting 
secretary of the board of state charities, was it not, Governor? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Q. And all the other communications read by His Excel- 
lency were copies embodied in this one letter addressed to }’ou, 
were they not? A. I think so ; of an earlier date. 
Q. Now, do 3tou recollect whether called the attention 
of the legislature or of any committee of the legislature to this 
matter during the session of 1876? A. In my animal 
message. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) In your annual message? A. In 
my annual message. 
The Chairman. [Offering the Blue Book for 1876.] Here 
it is, Governor. 
Q. (B3' Mr. Brown.) Now, sir, didn’t the committee on 
public charitable institutions of that year, consisting of George 
W. Reed, Gardner A. Churchill, Michael Carney, D. D. Baileyq 
Francis D. Stedrnan, George Haven — 
Gov. Butler. I beg 3Tour pardon ; 3tou cannot put that in in 
that wa3r. 
Q. Do 3rou recollect whether the3T were members of that 
committee ? 
Gov. Butler. Stop a minute. That cannot be proved in 
that way. 
The Chairman. The journal or the manual will show who 
the committee were. 
Gov. Butler. It is not a question who they were ; it is a 
question of proving. 
Mr. Brown. The document is proved already. The object 
of my' question is — 
Gov. Butler. Then if it is, why put the question ? 
Mr. Brown. Don’t get anxious about it. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I am not anxious. 
Mr. Brown. I want to refresh this witness’s memory, and I 
call the committee by name. 
The Witness. I have heard what that committee did. 
Gov. Butler. To that I have the honor to object, for he has 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1931 
not yet testified to anything that committee did, and till then his 
recollection is not to be refreshed. 
The Chairman. I suppose the journal of the House or 
Senate will show who the committee were. 
Gov. Butler. Whenever it comes time. But I have ex- 
amined legitimately upon what he did. 
Mr. Brown. Do I understand the committee to say that it is 
necessary for me to prove the contents of a public document? 
The Chairman. If His Excellency calls for formal proof, I 
suppose you would have to put it in. I suppose he would have 
that privilege. 
Gov. Butler. When it is proper you may put it in, and I 
should oiler no objection. 
Mr. Brown. Then I now offer House Document 326 of 
the year 1876, to which I desire to call the attention of the 
witness. 
Gov. Butler. And I object; at this time. There is a wit- 
ness on the stand ; and it is not time to put in another and an 
entirely different line of proof, with a witness on the stand. 
And it is not for the purpose of cross-examining him upon 
it, because he hadn’t anything to do with it; that is, he had not; 
he ought not, and I believe he didn’t have. 
Mr. Brown. That shows you are — 
Gov. Butler. When we get through with Mr. Rice, any 
further testimony Mr. Brown has to offer we must consider. 
Mr. Brown. It is always customary in the midst of an exami- 
nation of a witness, if you desire to call the witness’s attention 
to a deed or a paper of any kind, to offer it in evidence. I 
never before heard it suggested in any court, or before any com- 
mittee, that it was not proper to offer a document, which could 
be offered in evidence at all, while a witness was upon the stand, 
especially when the document is one which it is necessary should 
be first offered in evidence before the witness has his attention 
called to it. His Excellency has just read a letter of thirty-six 
pages, which he offered in evidence in the midst of the cross- 
examination of the witness. 
Gov. Butler. What a statement! 
Mr. Brown. An entirely different, subject than any to which 
I was calling his attention. 
Gov. Butler. What a statement! 
Mr. Brown. Here is an official communication of thirty-six 
pages to which His Excellency has called the attention of this 1932 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
witness. And now he objects to my calling the attention of the 
witness to what was done by the legislature of that year, after 
the complaint of March 23 had been submitted to them, because 
this document shows that on the sixth of April — 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment. Now, don’t put in the 
document; prove it. 
Mr. Brown. Don’t trouble yourself about the document. 
This document shows that on the sixth of April the legislative 
committee did act upon this letter. The matter contained in it 
was brought before it, and we have got the verdict of that com- 
mittee. 
The Chairman. That is what you offer ? 
Mr. Brown. That is what I offer. This matter has been 
stated, Mr. Chairman, and has been read for the purpose of its 
going to the country, and His Excellency don’t intend that the 
people of Massachusetts, who were represented in the legislature 
of that year, and who answered that document, — he does not 
intend that the answer shall go to the country. I intend that it 
shall go to the country, and I am going to have it go there, if 
I can. The charges contained here are put in the form of speci- 
fications in this House Document 32G ; the evidence was offered 
before the committee, the whole matter was considered, and 
there is the verdict of that committee, which was subsequently 
acted upon by the legislature. 
The Chairman. One at a time, Governor. We are afraid 
when you both stand up together. 
Gov. Butler. I am not going to say a word. Don’t be 
frightened. 
Mr. Brown. You will get tired if you stand up until I get 
through. That committee reported a bill ; the bill was acted 
upon by the legislature, and, I think, became a law. [Referring 
to the Blue Book.] It became a law. Now, whatever was 
said about this matter — 
Gov. Butler. Now, is this any argument on the question 
whether a certain document shall be admitted as evidence? 
The Chairman. We will take notice of the law. The ques- 
tion is whether that document shall be admitted? 
Mr. Brown. That is precisely what 1 am trying to talk 
about. If His Excellency would only7 sit down, L would get 
along a great deal faster. 
Gov. Butler. I now want to introduce an objection, which 
I learned yesterday from the chairman, if I didn’t know it be- 1883.j 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1933 
fore, and that was, that he interrupted by sa3ring, hadn’t you 
better argue the question of evidence after he gets through, after 
the evidence gets all in. 
The Chairman. I think that is a good point. The question 
is whether that document shall now be admitted. 
Mr. Brown. To that and nothing else am I talking. If 
His Excellency will sit down I will say — 
Gov. Butler. 1 see that he is not talking to that, and I 
want to raise an objection. 
The Chairman. Confine yourself, Mr. Brown, to the ques- 
tion . 
Gov. Butler. He is telling about what the law is. 
Mr. Brown. As I understand it, the committee don’t take 
notice of a House document. 
The Chairman. That I don’t know about. You don’t offer 
it on that ground ; you offer it as evidence. 
Mr. Brown. It would not be necessary for me to offer it if 
the committee took notice of it; but it is upon the theory that 
they don’t take judicial notice of it that I offer it; and I say it is 
competent because — 
Gov. Butler. I don’t object to its competency in the proper 
place ; but now I insist it is not competent. 
Mr. Brown. Very well; then it is simply as to the order of 
proof, which is always within the discretion of any court which 
is charged with the duty of conducting a hearing. 
The Chairman. Let us hear the governor, Mr. Brown, on 
his objection. 
Gov. Butler. This is it: You have been told that I have 
read this letter to Gov. Rice, and that that is the same as it 
would be to put in that document. I owe an apology to the 
committee, and I owe an apology to Mr. Brown in this : that I 
have sometimes thought he sometimes got statements so wrong 
that lie meant to get them wrong. This last speech of his has 
convinced me that he don’t; that his mind is so constituted that 
he cannot see a distinction, and he is not to blame for not tak- 
ing it. The distinction is this: lie put the question and asked 
Gov. Rice — I didn’t put the question — what sent him to 
Tewksbuiw. The governor said he went on account of some 
rumors. Very well. I thought he went for a different reason, 
and thereupon I produced a complaint made to the chief execu- 
tive magistrate — a letter reciting complaints made to the chief 
executive magistrate, the most terrible accusations that could 1934 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
be made by one set of men to another, and his answers show 
how completely the governor failed to look after that which 
lie went after; for he said he did look after the cloths used in 
serving, and there is not a word said about dish-cloths nor any- 
thing of that sort in this complaint. But there were very hein- 
ous charges affecting everybody connected with the institution. 
He didn’t tell us that he even looked into the question of ven- 
tilation. He didn’t tell us that they were clean. And I put in 
that letter to show how different the investigation was from 
what he was asked to investigate, and to draw a proper infer- 
ference. Now, then, Mr. Brown insists that he can put in a 
document—that the governor never saw, so far as it appears— 
which does not have any relation to his testimony, which was 
the act of others made years after, or years before, as the case 
may be, and with which he had nothing to do. Now, I in- 
sist that that is not a proper way to conduct a case. I know 
the stress that they feel under to try to get in some answer 
to this to be put right alongside of it. All of us are not 
young partridges which stick their heads under a leaf and think 
their whole bodies are out of sight. And, therefore, there was a 
long statement of what it might be. It is not proper to put 
that in now. It is not a case, Mr. Chairman, where you want 
to put in a deed to examine the witness upon it. That is com- 
mon in your practice and mine, and on that rule I acted when I 
put in this. But he is putting in something that this witness 
had nothing to do with — nothing whatever. Now, can that be 
done now? Can we stop and have that whole volume put in 
now before the examination of this witness is finished? 
The Chairman. Let me ask you a question, Governor. You 
read to the governor certain charges contained in that letter? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Now, is it not competent to ask whether 
those charges were not investigated b}’ the legislature ? 
Gov. Butler. Entirely competent; but not to ask of the 
governor, because it don’t affect his testimony. It is not re- 
examination. 
The Chairman. And if this investigation was before he went 
up there — 
Gov. Butler. Suppose it was before or after. 
The Chairman. B}’ a committee of the legislature, and that 
they found the charges were not to be sustained — 
Gov. Butler. Assuming that the}’ did so, sir — 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1935 
The Chairman. Isn’t it competent to ask him? 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Chairman. Whether they were investigated ? 
Gov. Butler. Would that alter his duties, because some- 
bod}* had done theirs or not? Because the legislature had 
whitewashed this concern, did it excuse him in going up there 
and only looking at the dish-cloths and crockery to see how 
they were cleaned, or at the floors to see how they were washed? 
Does anybody mean to say that that would be an excuse for 
him? They produced this witness for what? To show* that he 
went to Tewksbury, and it was all right, — excellent is the 
word.' And I show that he was sent there, — because a public 
servant is sent when a grave public body like the board of 
state charities say: we have grave complaints which we endorse 
and which we know from our own investigation affect even the 
character of the men composing the management of that insti- 
tution. And that board of state charities was abolished soon 
after, — of course it would be, — that board of state charities 
went, but the Marshes stayed, like Tennyson’s brook, — 
“ For men may come and men may go, 
But I go on forever.” 
The Chairman. Like this investigation. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; there was an earthquake struck 
that brook and turned it the other way. 
The Chairman. I hope an earthquake will strike this. 
Gov. Butler. Tennyson didn’t provide for that; but this 
went on. The question is, shall we have any order of debate or 
of investigation at all. I have tried to keep myself within the 
rule as I understood it would be enforced anywhere ; and with 
any laxity of the rule I have not been so very particular. But 
I do insist that until this witness is off the stand a document 
with which he had nothing to do shall not be put in. After- 
wards you may show what you can show, or what you will 
show. I think it will be found, if you will allow me to refer to 
the document a moment, that this complaint was made before 
any verdict was made by the committee or anybody else. But 
because one branch.of the government does not do its duty is 
that any excuse for the other? Because one branch of this 
government won’t do its duty, is it the right of any other person 
to appeal to them? Must not that person or that branch inves- 
tigate ? It was said there were rumors. Gov, Rice cannot sav 1936 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
that he went up there and investigated over again, or that he 
didn’t go there because of a verdict of a committee as it is now 
called — not a unanimous one; it is the old eight-to-seven 
verdict. 
The Chairman. My trouble with the verdict, Governor, is 
that the majority of the committee didn’t find an}7thing. That 
is my trouble. 
Gov. Butler. I leave out mere rumors ; I don’t know any- 
thing about them. 
The Chairman. That is the trouble with the verdict, that 
the majority didn’t come to any conclusion. 
Gov. Butler. And that is what is called a verdict here, 
you know. Mr. Brown is not to blame ; he cannot see the dis- 
tinction. I agree he does as well as he can. 
Mr. Brown. I am under great obligations to you. 
Gov. Butler. But are we to go into that now? That is the 
only question I want settled now. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, — 
Gov. Butler. How is the order of debate now? 
The Chairman. The burden is on him, Governor. You 
have replied and he has the close. 
Mr. Brown. I want to say a single word in answer to the 
Governor. I called this a verdict. I thought I had the right 
to call it a verdict, because I find on pages four and five of this 
House document 326 the committee came to a direct conclusion. 
They say as to certain things that they are proven, and as to 
certain other things that they are not proven, and they put the 
responsibility where it belongs. As to certain other things they 
say they are not proven ; and so every charge of the numerous 
charges fo which I had occasion to call the attention of the 
committee on the first evening when we commenced last March, 
even7 one of those charges is answered and the conclusion of 
the committee is expressed. Whether it is entirely satisfactory, 
of course is a matter with which I cannot here deal; but there 
is one thing certain, that the conclusions of this committee 
were accepted by the legislature of that year, and legislation 
followed. 
The Chairman. They all agreed, as I understand it, in 
reporting a bill. 
Mr. Brown. They all agreed in reporting a bill. 
The Chairman. They all concurred in reporting a bill, but 
they didn’t all agree upon findings of fact. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1937 
Mr. Brown. They didn’t all agree upon findings of fact. 
Gov. Butler. Nor were any considerable portion of the 
charges made to Gov. Rice in the charges put before that com- 
mittee. 
The Chairman. Very many of them were, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. And very many of them were not. 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all I said. I know what is there. 
Mr. Brown. This communication was written by Mr. F. B. 
Sanborn ; by Mr. F. B. Sanborn, His Excellency says, some 
years, more or less, before the vote ; and I want to apologize to 
the committee and say to the committee that sometimes I have 
thought Ilis Excellency did intend to make a little exaggeration, 
perhaps, of some facts, but I have come to the conclusion that 
His Excellency is not at all to blame, — he don’t know the dif- 
ference between two weeks and two years. It was within two 
weeks ; this committee acted upon it within two weeks from the 
date of that letter ; this committee took this thing in hand on 
the sixth of April, — this letter is dated on the 2od of March, 
— the sixth of April of the same year. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; they took it in hand many weeks 
before that, sir. 
Mr. Brown. u House of Representatives, April 6, 187G.” 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
The Chairman. The date of the report. 
Mr. Brown. Was the date of the report. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; and they took the investigation in hand 
before. 
Mr. Brown. From the time when they acted upon these 
charges, that is what I am coming at; not when these charges 
were poured out into their ears, — I don’t say anything about 
that; but that is the date when they acted, and the same man 
who wrote the letter was the man who conducted the investiga- 
tion before the committee. Now, my point is this: it is impor- 
tant, it is perfectly fair, it is a proper thing to do, that the 
answer to this charge which is put in here, should accompany 
the charge itself. Ilis Excellency has yielded everything in 
this matter except the matter of the order of proof; but, still, 
1 might spend some time in answering the numerous suggestions 
which he has made. They are all entirely immaterial. Of 
course, I didn’t desire to interrupt His Excellency in making his 
little speech to the committee, but they are entirely immaterial. 1938 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The only question, under the admission of His Excellency, the 
only question for this committee to decide, is the matter of the 
order of proof; nothing else. His Excellency says it is proper 
to put that document in sometime, but not now. I say that it 
is always in the power of the committee to say* when they will 
receive a particular document in evidence, if it is competent 
that it should be offered at all, and that is not in question, be- 
cause His Excellency admits that it is competent. 
The Chairman. Let the committee vote on it. The ques- 
tion is on the admission of House Document 326 of 1876. 
Gov. Butler. At this time. 
Mr. Murphy. It strikes me, Mr. Chairman, that it had 
better come in later on. 
The Chairman. I am in some doubt whether it is not in 
already'; it was read from the first night of the investiga- 
tion. 
Mr. Murphy. Supposing we consider that it is in already. 
Gov. Butler. That would be a good reason for not putting 
it in now. 
Mr. Murphy. Exactly. 
The Chairman. It seems to me a question whether it is not 
in already ; but we had better settle ivhether it is or not. 
[The committee voted 7 to 1 to admit the document.] 
The Chairman. It is a vote ; the document is in now, sure. 
Q. Now, Governor, as you understand, these same charges 
ol" Mr. Sanborn were submitted to the committee in that same 
year ? 
Gov. Butler. I object. The document being in, what was 
submitted appears by* the document, not what the governor un- 
derstands. 
The Chairman. I think so. 
Mr. Brown. I won’t press the question, if y*ou object to 
it. 
Q. Was your attention called to the report of this commit- 
tee in 1876? A. I don’t know that it was in any special 
manner. You will observe that the matter was already under 
investigation, I think, or the investigation was immediately 
commenced, after the date when that communication was sent 
to me. I went to Tewksbury to examine the condition of the 
place. 
Q. Now, before y ou went to Tewksbury* in June, had your 
attention beep called to the facts that the committee reported as 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1939 
proven and those which the}r reported as not proven? A. 
They hadn’t reported. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t hear what that question was. 
Mr. Brown. This report I offer as made by this committee 
on the sixth day of April, 1876. I asked the governor whether 
at the time when he went to visit this institution in June, 1876, 
the facts which the committee reported as proven and those 
which they reported as not proven had been called to his atten- 
tion. 
Gov. Butler. He says in answer to that question, not par- 
ticularly, as he knew. , 
Mr. Brown. That was in answer to another question I asked 
him. 
Gov. Butler. I understand, but he said the report hadn’t 
been particularly called to his attention. I accept that to be 
the truth ; if you don’t, I sha’n’t allow you to cross-examine 
your own witness. 
Mr. Brown. You will have a very interesting time in stop- 
ping it, I fancy. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to read the 
report of this committee. 
Gov- Butler. I object. 
Mr. Brown. I think the report is in evidence, and 1 think it 
should be read. 
The Chairman. Do you ask that for the sake of having it go 
on the record? 
Mr. Brown. I ask it for the sake of having it on the record, 
with the charge which is made in this letter. 
The Chairman. I suppose if it is in it will go upon the 
record, and you might save time. 
Gov. Butler. I object to its going in now. I am up to that 
trick, thoroughly. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; I saw you were when you put that letter 
in ; I think you have been up to it ever since in trying to keep 
this out. 
The Chairman. What part of it do you wish to read? 
Mr. Brown. I want to read the conclusions of the commit- 
tee, found upon pages 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, and also the additional 
report signed by Churchill and Bailey upon page 10, and the 
minority report upon pages 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 
19. T will put in the findings of the majority of the committee 
upon pages 4 and 5. 
Gov. Butler. The whole of it is in. 1940 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. That is, I will read that and stop. 
Gov. Butler. I object to stopping this investigation to read 
it now, while this witness is on the stand ; and I am glad that 
the true motive has been stated. 
The Chairman. I don’t quite see the distinction between 
stopping for him to read and stopping the witness for yon to 
read ; what is the difference? 
Gov. Butler. I will try to make it plain to the most common 
capacity. This is it: the difference is this: 1 read a thing to 
cross-examine the witness about a matter within his knowledge, 
to show that he didn’t make the investigation that he ought to 
have made. He says to Mr. Brown, “ I went up there in con- 
sequence of rumors.” I said, “ Didn’t you have this report 
before you went up there, and were not these the rumors?” 
Wa’n’t your attention called to the libertinism of Tom Marsh, 
to the thefts of the old woman, to the murder of that unfortu- 
nate, feeble-minded woman, who was killed in the bath-room, 
upon the testimony of Dr. Nichols; didn’t you examine into 
those things? Those were before you. Those hadn’t been ex- 
amined, — if I may go into it, — hadn’t been examined in the 
report of the committee, even. This was in order to show that 
for some reason, which at some time hereafter I will explain, 
the governor and council didn’t examine the matter which the 
board of state charities asked them to examine. That was 
legitimate. Suppose I complained to you, sir, that certain 
things ought to be examined into and action taken ; and you had 
the power to do it, and you didn’t go and examine into one of 
those charges, but you went and said, I found everything 
lovely, excellent; shouldn’t I have, when your testimony was 
against me, shouldn’t I have the right to say : Well, sir, wa’n't 
you sent to examine this, this, this, this, this, this ; and did you 
examine it ? Did you put your nose into those closets and smell 
that mephitic stink that would take away the power of thought? 
Is Dr. Howe correct? Did you examine the case of that poor 
woman who was killed ? Did you examine the question whether 
the clothes had been taken away ? Did you examine the ques- 
tion as to the father of the illegitimate children born of inmates 
and insane there, because we shall hear more about that before 
we die, if we live to the common age of man? Did you examine 
into that? No. Very well; wouldn’t that be legitimate, quite, 
I ask? I first asked him: did you examine into those' things, 
and I got a negative answer in every instance. Weren’t these 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
1941 
complaints before you? Yes. And the committee voted yester- 
day to put in what a half-crazed old woman said yesterday to a 
doctor, who wanted to get her to say something to qualify him 
as a witness ; and was I not right in following to show there had 
been complaints for years, and years, and y-ears, to contradict 
all this horde of witnesses, brought here from Tewksbury to 
say there never were complaints? This covers French Joe, this 
covers Smith, this covers everybody. Not only not the com- 
plaints of inmates, not the complaints of people who haven’t 
characters, but the complaints of men whose duty it was to com- 
plain, the results of the investigations of those who had the 
right to investigate, and who appealed to their common superior 
to aid them in clearing out this slaughter-house. 
The Chairman. That is a question for argument, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I agree that it is a question for 
argument; and it was to show 3-011 that I want to raise that ar- 
gument, and it was legitimate to raise it, that I read this paper, 
— not to go into a report of a committee of the legislature made 
some time afterwards, and stop to read that, upon the avowed 
purpose of getting it on to the record at the same time to protect, 
who? Those who did the mischief. That is the avowed pur- 
pose. Let that go on to the record, that the investigation is 
stopped in order to get an answer to this, to go forth to the 
world to cover the misdeeds and protect the interests of some- 
body. And I rather hope 3-ou will vote it, because I want this 
exhibition to go to the world, not only to the country but further 
still, that when, in the orderly- course of debate and investiga- 
tion, I investigate by- showing that there had been complaints to 
the highest magistrate of the land by the highest authority of 
the land, that that is made an excuse of having read, so it 
might be copied and put into the record, something done by 
somebody- else that would have no special tendency to be an an- 
swer, but the best answer that could be got to protect the inter- 
ests of those who are carrying on this defence against this inves- 
tigation. Now, sir, let us see. This report was on the sixth of 
April. The charges were made April — I have them all here — 
The Chairman. February 24th. 
Gov. Butler. February7 24th; yes; but this complaint was 
made to the chief magistrate before there was any7 report of 
anybody, on the 23d of March. Very well; and then it was 
his duty to have investigated it; in the language of a subpoena 1942 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
in equity, “ all other business being laid aside,” to go and see 
what was the cause of these numerous deaths. 
The Chairman. While the legislature was in session and 
charged with this very business? 
Gov. Butler. Certainly, sir, certainly; it was the legisla- 
ture’s duty to make laws, it is the executive’s duty to punish 
crimes [applause] and remove paid officers — 
The Chairman. Mr. Doorkeeper, put out those parties, if you 
can recognize them. 
Gov. Butler. That is what was the executive’s duty ; and 
he suggested upon the evidence that the old aunt should go out 
and Dr. Nellie should go out, and b}~ and by I will examine him 
upon that suggestion, because I have got some documents here 
about that. Now. there is the difference. If the committee 
can’t see that difference I can’t help it. I have tried to make it 
plain, — the difference between what I did and what they ask to 
do. The}7 ask now to stand up and read somebody else’s papers 
with a witness on the stand, stopping the investigation upon 
the avowed purpose of getting in an answer to the charges. 
That is the avowed purpose. Now, if that is a legitimate and 
proper purpose, have it. 
The Chairman. The question to me is, whether, the docu- 
ment being in, you can’t enter it upon the record. [Hisses.] 
Mr. Doorkeeper, I wish you would form a committee to go 
about in the rear of the room, and if you can find out who has 
disturbed this meeting put them out, otherwise we shall be 
obliged to clear the hall. This insult to the committee has gone 
on as long as it will. The Governor has once, himself, requested 
all parties to desist from any applause. This is getting to be a 
solemn business. 
Gov. Butler. Quite. 
The Chairman. And trifling ought to be at an end. 1 was 
suggesting that as the document is in, if it is entered on the 
record, why that would not end all controversy. It need not 
be read now ; is there any objection to that proceeding? 
Gov. Buler. The only objection I have to that is that that 
suggestion of the chairman accomplishes Mr. Brown’s purpose ; 
that is all. 
The Chairman. The document being in I submit it is com- 
petent to extend it on the record at some time to suit con- 
venience. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1943 
The Chairman. Otherwise I shall put it to the vote of the 
committee. 
Gov. Butler. I want a vote of the committee, sir. I know 
I am here in a lean minority. 
Mr. Murphy. I should like to make a motion, in order to 
bring it before the committee, that the document as offered by 
Mr. Brown be not read. 
Gov. Butler. At the present time, till we finish this witness. 
Mr. Learnard. I understand that prevents it being entered 
on the record in course at the present time? 
The Chairman. I take it so ; not to be read at the present 
time. 
Mr. Learnard. Then I am against the motion. 
Mr. Putney. I take it that whether or not the documents 
are read now, or half an hour later, it will make but very little 
difference, as they are spread upon the records when the}7 are 
read. It seems to me, if that is the only point, to have them 
go before the people, a half an hour later will make no differ- 
ence as to that. 
Mr. Brown. The chairman will allow me to make a sugges- 
tion? One view has been lost sight of which was presented by 
me to the committee, and that is this: That I desire to call the 
governor’s attention to what this committee did in reference to 
these charges, for the purpose of refreshing his recollection, and 
then I was about to proceed with some other inquiries. 
The Chairman. The question is whether the documents shall 
be read now, — or, rather, whether they shall not be read; the 
negative was put. 
Mr. Putney. Not be read at all; is that the point? 
The Chairman. Not be read now. 
Mr. Murphy. It seems to me that if the avowed purpose of 
putting in the documents is merely to have them appear in ttie 
public print, and is contrary to equity and law in the matter, 
they should not be read. 
The Chairman. It is a question for us to decide, whether it 
is contrary to equity and law, or not. 
Mr. Murphy. Exactly; and that is the reason I made the 
motion as I did, for the committee to decide. 
[The motion was lost by a vote of 2 to 5.] 
Gov. Butler. I then ask that the whole document be read, 
sir. 
The Chairman. Very well, sir. 1944 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. As well the charges made as the rest, because, 
otherwise, we never can know what they passed upon. 
Mr. Brown. I will read the whole document. [Reading.] 
[House, No. 326.] 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 
The undersigned, of the Committee on Public Charitable Institu- 
tions, to whom was referred the Twelfth Annual Report of the Board 
of State Charities and Annual Report of the Tewksbury Almshouse 
— report in part as follows: That the Committee took an early 
opportunity to request Mr. Sanborn, chairman of the board of state 
charities, to prefer charges in writing in the matter of cei’tain state- 
ments contained in the twelfth annual report of the Board, regarding 
the management, discipline and sanitary condition of the State Alms- 
house at Tewksbury. A statement was accordingly submitted, con- 
taining five charges, to wit: — 
Office of the Board of State Charities, l 
State House, Boston, Feb. 24, 1876. J 
To the Committee on Public Charitable Institutions. 
Gentlemen : — Your vote requesting me, as chairman of the board of state 
charities, “ to prepare specific charges in writing concerning statements made by 
you, etc., against Tewksbury Almshouse officers, etc , and present the same for 
the committee’s action on Thursday, the 24th instant” (to-day), has been com- 
municated to me by your secretary. 
Although I have had no opportunity to consult the members of the board in 
regard to the matter, and although it has never been the custom of the board to 
appear as the public accuser of state officers in hearings of this kind, but either 
as persons officially communicating information, or as witnesses subject to the 
examination of legislative committees, I yet feel no hesitation in complying with 
your request, so far as to submit to you in writing the statements verbally made 
to your committee in answer to questions asked or remarks made by members of 
the committee. These statements were made upon information officially obtained 
by members of the board in the performance of their duty, and were sub- 
stantially as follows: 
Charges. 
First. That upon a visit of inspection made by the board to the State Alms- 
house in 1873, the hospital for the sick, the asylum for the insane and the room 
occupied by the foundling children were found either ill-ventilated, offensive from 
the effluvia of privies and other sources of stench, or infested with vermin; and 
that this insanitary and -improper condition of those parts of the almshouse was 
then made known to the superintendent, and soon after to His Excellency, 
Governor Washburn. 
Now, if the committee prefer, I will read directly after that 
first charge the answer of the committee to it. 
House of Representatives, April 6, 1876. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1945 
Gov. Butler. I think you had better read the document. 
Mr. Brown. Read right on in order, shall I; very well. 
[Reading.] 
Second. That in October and November, 1874, certain insane women were im- 
properly imprisoned at the Tewksbury Almshouse (as set forth in a report signed 
by F. B. Sanborn, S. C. Wrigbtington and Sidney Andrews, now in the hands of 
your committee); that this imprisonment was attended with circumstances or 
gross and obvious neglect and hardship, and was unknown to the inspectors for 
a period of at least eight weeks. 
Third. That the mortality among the insane women, in a special hospital for 
such patients at Tewksbury, was excessive and shocking during the month of 
May, 1875, and the early part of June; that the responsibility for this mortality 
rests with Miss Helen M. Marsh, then and now assistant physician at the State 
Almshouse, of which her father is superintendent and her brother the assistant- 
superintendent ; that this young woman had no such acquaintance with disease 
and insanity, or with the proper treatment thereof, as would qualify her for such 
a responsible position; that there was'no epidemic or other unusual cause of 
death at the time; and that as soon as the hospital in question was put in the 
direct charge of the physician to the sane inmates, Dr. J. D. Nichols, the mor- 
tality instantly diminished; so that there were fewer deaths in four months fol- 
lowing the 15th of June, 1875, than in the thirty-five or thirty-six days between 
May 5 and June 8, 1875. 
Fourth. That a former inmate of the almshouse, Phebe A. Brink by name, 
charged one Reed, lately a night watchman at Tewksbury, with committing for- 
nication, which he more than once solicited, and which took place at the State 
Almshouse one evening in September last; that this charge was brought to the 
notice of the board by Mrs. Durant, a state official, on the 29th of December last, 
and was at once investigated by the general agent, Mr. Wrightington, who be- 
lieved the fact to be as charged, and reported the matter to the superintendent, 
Mr. Marsh, and to the watchman, Reed; that the latter denied it, but at the first 
opportunity gave up his place and left the almshouse, as if guilty. 
Fifth. That the discipline of the almshouse has been and continues so lax, 
that such offences as are charged against Reed, may be, and have been, com- 
mitted ; resulting, in some instances, in the birth of bastard children who were 
begotten in the almshouse, probably by some of the male inmates; that other 
attempts of the same kind have been made, and that almost any scandal might 
arise there in consequence of this loose and improper discipline. 
These were the statements made by me. I do not understand that the first is 
questioned. The second was proved by me, and admitted by the superintendent 
and inspectors of the State Almshouse at your hearing on the 17th instant. The 
third, fourth and fifth I am to-day prepared to prove, using as witnesses Dr. 
Allen, of Lowell; Mr. Wrightington, the general agent of the board; Dr. 
Nichols, late physician of the almshouse; and the superintendent and inspectors 
of the almshouse. I sha 11 then call your attention to the fact that these scandals 
and improprieties have long existed, and have been in part remedied by the board 
of charities, but that the real occasion of them continues, and deserves the seri- 
ous attention of your committee. 
It will be for you to judge, gentlemen of the committee, whether you will 
extend your inquiries beyond the matter named above. But it cannot have 
escaped your notice that there are many other charges concerning the manage- 
ment of the State Almshouse, which have not been made by members of the 
board of charities, but in regard to which several witnesses' are ready to’ testify. 1946 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Among these witnesses, known to me, are Dr. Nichols; Mr. French, an officer of 
the State Almshouse; and Mr. Chandler, an old resident in the neighborhood of 
the almshouse. No doubt there are several others; but of these I have personal 
knowledge. 
Respectfully submitted, 
F. B. Sanborn, 
Chairman Board of State Charities. 
Boston, March 18, 1876. 
The undersigned find as to charge first: facts proven. It does not 
appear, however, that the management was entirely responsible. 
Dr. Howe thought the trouble was mainly structural; Dr. Allen, 
that it wa£ partly structural, partly a matter of discipline. It is in 
evidence that the body of a pauper, just deceased of dysentery, was 
being cleansed in an adjoining room. Recommendations as to 
remedies were acceded to on the part of the superintendent. There 
is no question but that the institution is and has been generally clean 
and neat. Good water-closets were put in in the fall of 1874. 
Finding as to charge second : facts proven. Imprisonment, illegal 
and improper. That it was done through a mistaken idea by Dr. 
Whittaker, that it was in the interest of the State; the services of the 
women being wanted to aid in the labor of the institution, and they 
refusing to work. The superintendent seems to have been ignorant 
of the imprisonment, and the first notice to the inspectors was given 
to Mr. Elliot, one of the inspectors, by ex-Governor Talbot. Mr. 
Elliot immediately visited the institution and remonstrated with Dr. 
Whittaker. The evil had been, however, corrected by Mr. Wright- 
ington, general agent of the board. 
Finding, in regard to charge third : facts proven. Deductions not 
proven. Your Committee regard the excessive mortality in May, 
1875, as mainly accidental or cumulative. The fact that thex-e were 
fewer deaths immediately after may not be adduced as proving 
entirely that the cause was in the change of physicians. 
It may be reasonable to say that the assistant physician, Miss 
Marsh, is not so well fitted, by expei’ience or education, as to be able 
to fill the position in a superior manner, especially as regards the 
care of the insane sick ; but it is unjust to make the serious charge 
that she was responsible for the deatli of seven patients. While 
fourteen patients died in May, 1875, eleven of whom were women, 
the records show that nineteen died in July, 1870, thirteen of whom 
were women, and while Dr. Nichols was head physician, as in 1875. 
Gov. Butler. AVon’t you read that again? 
[Mr. Brown read again the above paragraph, and then con- 
tinued.] 
Finding as to charge foui'th : allegations not proven. The evidence 
does not support the charge, and comes merely from the Brink 
woman, — 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1947 
That is, the evidence of bastardy — 
who stated that she was pregnant, and is mistaken, and who has 
been, as stated by an agent of the board, a notoriously abandoned 
woman. The official record is, that she was divorced from her hus 
band for adultery, and criminally intimate with men prior to ancv 
after marriage. Mr. Iieed denies the charge emphatically. It is not 
entirely just to infer guilt from the resignation by Mr. Reed of his 
position at the almshouse, upon request of the superintendent, on an 
ex parte hearing While guilt in this case is possible, a man’s 
character may not be sworn away by the evidence of an alleged 
courtesan of the vilest class, and the accused is entitled to the benefit 
of the doubt. 
Finding as to charge fifth: facts proven. Only two cases, how- 
ever, of the birth of bastard children, begotten in the almshouse, 
have been proved to have occurred by the records of the almshouse; 
and two swallows do not make a summer. 
The almshouse of Tewksbury occupies a peculiar position among 
our charitable institutions. It is the cesspool of the state charities, 
into which the lowest elements of our pauperism, disease and harm- 
less insanity, gravitate. From other insane asylums, and from the 
towns and cities of the Commonwealth, there comes -to it a steady 
tide of incurable insane, feeble, diseased, and, in many cases, filthy 
paupers. 
It will not be considered strange if, with such an occupancy, the 
rate of mortality should be large, in comparison with other institu- 
tions. During the year ending October 1, 1875, the number of 
admissions was 2,043, and the highest number of inmates, 1,019 
(page liv, Twelfth Annual report). We quote and endorse the fol- 
lowing paragraphs from the report of the board, page lvii: — 
“ Perhaps it (i. e. the institution) can best be described as an infirmary, con- 
taining both sane and insane patients. It receives as many patients in the course 
of a year as the general hospital of a large city would receive, —invalids with 
almost every form and degree of disease. It constantly maintains an insane 
population as great as that of the average hospitals for the insane in the United 
States, with the exception of the largest ones. Of its 850 inmates, an average of 
at least 400 need the oversight of a skilful physician, and 150 require the daily 
care of a competent assistant physician and of well-trained nurses. In other 
words, they require, what is indispensable to every other large hospital or 
infirmary — a well-selected staff of medical officers, with a medical man at their 
head. For the lack of this, all the skill and fidelity of its resident physicians — 
Dr. Brown, Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Nichols, and others —have not been able to pre- 
vent the continuance of serious defects in its sanitary management. We 
doubt if any other hospital or infirmary, with so many patients, can be found in 
the United States which has had so little medical care and counsel. 
None but a physician can properly regulate the daily discipline of a hospital.” 
The question as to the policy to be pursued by the State, in the 
future, is important. 1948 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
We esteem it advisable that one of the inspectors shall be a com- 
petent, energetic, independent physician, of experience and skill in 
his profession. 
Sound public policy demands that several of the officials of the 
institution related to Mr. Marsh, the superintendent, be discharged 
by the proper authorities. This would seem to be in accord with a 
correct sentiment of the people, that nepotism is unwise, both in 
national or state affairs, and for other reasons not necessary to give 
at this time. 
We would also recommend that the head physician be nominated 
to the governor and council by the inspectors, and that he nominate 
to the inspectors his assistant physician or physicians for approval; 
that the head physician shall alone be responsible in matters pertain- 
ing to the medical treatment of sick, sane or insane; provided, how- 
ever, that all reports of the medical department shall be transmitted 
unsealed through the hands of the superintendent, who shall in turn 
transmit to the proper authorities, and may indorse thereon approval 
or disapproval. That it may be advisable, in case the present super- 
intendent shall continue in office, that Miss Helen M. Marsh should 
vacate the office of assistant physician. With only a limited expe- 
rience in the treatment of sick insane, her appointment was unwise, 
and the nomination should not have been confirmed by the inspect- 
ors. Want of medical experience, however, is not the only reason 
for our recommendation. The daughter of the superintendent is too 
near the throne, except, perhaps, she was the wife of the head phy- 
sician, to become his assistant. 
The medical corps should be increased, or consulting physicians 
engaged, and provision made for their remuneration. Neither the 
inspectors nor the superintendent, however, are primarily responsible 
for any faults in this direction. Though Dr. Nathan Allen, a mem- 
ber of the board of state charities, denies it now, the weight of evi- 
dence seems to indicate that he did say, several times, that the medi- 
cal staff should not be increased, while very anxious to procure the 
position of head physician himself 
The undersigned are sure that they would be unjust to themselves 
did they not explain in regard to the charges, as made by Mr. San- 
born, and signed by him as chairman of the board of state charities. 
It was certainly supposed by your Committee, when it requested 
Mr. Sanborn to prefer written charges, and addressed him as chair- 
man, that he would only present such charges as were indorsed by 
the full board, — not because the Committee wished to exclude evi- 
dence of sins of omission or commission, but that we might have as 
a basis, official rather than personal charges 
We certainly had reason to suppose that such indorsement would 
be given. Some days after, we received the following record of vote 
passed by the board : — 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1949 
March 13, 1876. 
At a special meeting of the Board of State Charities, held March 10, on motion 
of Mr. Earle, it was unanimously voted, that the course of the chairman in sub- 
mitting written charges concerning the State Almshouse at the request of the 
Committee on Public Charitable Institutions, meets the approval of the Board. 
A true copy. Attest: 
S. C. Wbightington, 
Acting Secretary. 
[Italics our own.] 
It will suggest itself to thoughtful persons that the board do not 
and have not yet indorsed the charges to your Committee, and Mr. 
Sanborn did, on the '21st of March, at a public hearing before your 
Committee, acknowledge that the vote in its specific language did 
not indorse or sanction the charges. 
Whether this vote was passed because the board would not indorse 
the charges, or was a stroke of policy, your Committee are unable to 
determine. 
It will be noticed, by reference to the report of the board for 1875, 
pages liv to lxi, that the charges or allegations, are presented in a 
much milder form than as given to the Committee in the letter of 
Mr. Sanborn, which we quote in the beginning; that some charges 
in the letter do not appear in the report, and that the charge of 
illegal confinement seems to have been considered as substantially 
settled at the time of its occurrence. 
There seems, however, to be an irrepressible conflict between the 
chairman of the board of state charities and other officials who have 
independent supervisory powers over the charitable institutions. 
Mr. Sanborn undoubtedly is to be credited with long-continued and 
able labor in his position. It is his duty to report facts, and lie 
has not failed so to do; but we submit he has no right to draw con- 
clusions unadvisedly, and to report publicly, suspicions or insinu- 
ations which may condemn in public estimation innocent parties. 
Some of the evils complained of in regard to the charitable insti- 
tutions, are due to a want of courtesy on the chairman’s part toward 
other officials, his equals in ability, honesty and culture, notably in 
the case of the inspectors of the Tewksbury Almshouse. Clearly, 
some members of the board of state charities are responsible in a 
measure for a part of the troubles at Tewksbury. They are respon- 
sible for the reinstatement of Dr. Nichols, who seems to have been 
too old, infirm and irresolute to fill the position he assumed, and 
who, whatever his knowledge as a physician might have been, did 
did not dare seemingly to uphold the dignity or independence of the 
office of head physician. 
They are responsible in that one of their number, Dr. Nathan 
Allen, who claims to have “ investigated the subject of hygiene and 
sanitary laws more carefully than any other man in the country,” 
did in 1875, in writing, recommend himself to the chairman of the 1950 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
inspectors as a suitable person to take charge of a department at 
Tewksbury, thus somewhat embarrassing the inspectors, and using 
what has been called an honorary position under the State to lift 
himself into a sinecure, and whose opinions upon the management 
of affairs at Tewksbury have very much changed since he failed to 
procure what he then so much desired. 
We cannot close this Report, upon a hearing so disagreeable to 
your Committee, without stating to the honorable Senate and House, 
— in view of the exciting circumstances attending it, and the fact 
that the press has been used to forestall public opinion by statements 
made as to charges proven, which statements we deem unfounded, — 
that, “ with malice towards none, but charity to all,” we have striven 
to give to yourselves and the people of the Commonwealth a true 
statement of facts. We appreciate fully the difficulty of satisfying 
the views of those who believe the management of affairs at Tewks- 
bury, under its present administration, nearly perfect, or of those who 
think such management grossly inefficient. Our judgment is not, 
by any means, infallible. It is sincere, and the result of a most care- 
ful and unbiased consideration of the facts. Much trouble to your 
Committee might have been saved by a reference to the governor 
and council, but it does not seem proper for us to shirk responsibility. 
We respectfully report the accompanying bill. 
Geo. W. Reed. 
Gardner A. Churchill. 
Michael Carney. 
Indorsed by the undersigned, except as to lack of courtesy on the 
part of the chairman of the board of state charities. See preceding 
page. 
D. D. Bailey. 
’ Giles G. Barker. 
The undersigned feel compelled to add a further recommendation : 
that the almshouse demands, and must have, a superintendent of 
preeminent executive ability, and of sterling character; and while 
finding nothing which affects the personal character of Mr. Marsh 
injuriously, cannot but come to the conclusion, that, while he has 
been generally efficient in his administration, and has had much to 
contend with, he lacks that superior ability for the position which is 
demanded and ought to be obtained, — an ability which the State 
fortunately possesses in the superintendents of most of its other 
charitable institutions. 
The fact that he was ignorant of the imprisonment of the insane 
women, — an imprisonment continuing for weeks: that his accounts 
ADDITIONAL REPORT. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1951 
are not settled with the State monthly as required by law, even when 
possible so to do, after appropriations passed (though there is no 
reason to suppose the accounts incorrect) ; that he allowed specula- 
tion by under officers in tobacco with inmates of the institution ; that 
he has appointed so large a number of his own family and relatives 
to the higher offices; that he was not aware of any excessive mor- 
tality, whether justified or not; that he sanctioned the return of Dr. 
Nichols, even under a pressure undoubtedly brought to bear by the 
board of state charities ; that he allowed I)r. Whittaker to remain, or 
did not report to the inspectors the illegal imprisonment of the in- 
sane women, when he ascertained the facts; that no record has been 
kept at the almshouse of said imprisonment of insane women; that 
he requested Thaxter Reed to resign, upon the mere charge of an 
alleged abandoned woman, without a proper hearing, are some 
among many of the reasons, showing a want of superior executive 
ability equal to the position. 
To obtain such a superintendent as is desirable, a suitable and 
ample salary should be granted. 
Gardner A. Churchill. 
D. D. Bailey. 
MINORITY REPORT. 
House of Representatives, April 6, 1876. 
The undersigned, a minority of the Committee on Public Chari- 
table Institutions, 
REPO R T : 
The matter of the investigation of the management of the Tewks- 
bury Almshouse came to the notice of the Committee in an examin- 
ation had in regard to repealing the laws establishing the state board 
of charities, and substituting therefor a bill providing for another 
organization. 
In examining this subject, the question naturally arose what the 
board had accomplished since its existence, and wherein it was useful 
at the present time. 
Among other answers given, great stress was laid on the fact that 
it had discovered aggravated abuses and mismanagement in the 
Tewksbury Almshouse; and, in defining these abuses, and in stating 
supposed facts, charges of a grave nature were made, So important 
and serious were these charges, that the Committee, in justice to all 
parties, voted to request the chairman of the board to present his 
charges in writing. This was complied with, though without any 
vote of the board, and the Committee to this day are not sure that 1952 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
the charges have been officially indorsed, or ever read in the shape 
presented to this Committee, by a majority of the board; although 
a majority did approve of the course of the chairman in complying 
with the vote of the Committee requesting the charges to be pre- 
sented in writing. 
Whether the board take the responsibility of making these com- 
plaints, or whether the whole responsibility lies with the chairman, 
this Committee have as yet no means of knowing. 
The first charge relates to the ill-ventilated and filthy condition of 
the institution on September 22, 1873. On that day. Dr. Nichols, the 
physician, in his sworft testimony says, that in one of the apartments 
a woman had just died of dysentery, and her offensive remains were 
just being removed as some of the members of the board ©f state 
charities entered. The stench from this body for a few moments 
was unbearable. In the report which these members made to their 
board, no mention or allowance was made for the above circum- 
stance at that time, or since; yet, from their statement then, and by 
the chairman’s charge now, one would be led to believe that that day 
was a type of the general condition of the Almshouse. 
There can be no doubt, however, that the state of the atmosphere 
was generally impure. Dr. IIowc, who was a member of the board 
at the time, in a letter to Gov. Washburn, speaks in very strong 
terms of this prevalent impure air and want of proper ventilation. 
He also says that this state of things is not owing to the administra- 
tion of officers. He lays great stress on the fact of the construction 
of the buildings as faulty and entirely unfit for proper ventilation. 
It is fair in this connection to say that Dr. Allen, in his testimony, 
said that he did not entirely agree with Dr. Howe as to the admin- 
istration, and the chairman also expressed the same dissent It was 
intimated that the same condition of things remained for some time 
after the visit of the board alluded to, but no proof of a reliable 
nature was offered to substantiate that fact in the minds of the under- 
signed. It is known to every one conversant with the buildings first 
erected, that they were poorly built, inconvenient, and had no modern 
appliances for ventilation or cleansing. The blame for this state of 
things, if there is any, lies with former legislatures, if anywhere, in 
not providing full appliances for ventilation, and in not keeping in 
pay employes enough to watch over the inmates, so that they should 
not interfere with such means of ventilation as were furnished. 
In regal’d to this first cliarge, the undersigned are of the opinion 
that the condition of the Almshouse on the 22d of September, 1873, 
and afterwards, was owing more to the structure of the building than 
to any neglect or mismanagement on the part of the superintendent ; 
no reliable testimony was offered to substantiate any delinquency of 
duty in this regard on the part of that officer. 
The second charge refers to the imprisonment of certain insane 
women] who refused to work in the laundry. This matter was 1883.j 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1953 
brought to the notice of the Committee on Public Chai'ities, of the 
session of 1875, by the reception of an anonymous paper setting forth 
this abuse. This paper was afterwards, by request, placed in the 
hands of a clerk of the board of state charities, and another paper of 
the same tenor, signed by the secretary or chairman of the board, was 
submitted to the committee. That committee examined into the matter, 
and found that women had been imprisoned in the manner alleged ; but 
when the statement was made to the superintendent and physician 
by Mr. Wrightington, the general agent of charities, that the imprison- 
ment was severe, uncalled for and illegal, it was at once abandoned, 
both the superintendent and physician being convinced of the impro- 
priety and unnecessary severity of such a mode of treatment of such 
an insane and irresponsible class of human beings. 
The superintendent said that although he was aware that such 
treatment was pursued, yet he did not think that it was his duty to 
interfere with the action of the physician ; and in justice to the 
physician, Dr. Whittaker, wc ought to state that in a defence of his 
course submitted to this Committee, he assigned as a reason for his 
treatment of these women, that although they were in as good health 
as the insane generally are, they were obstinate, lazy, noisy, and 
would do nothing to occupy their time, though they were able to 
work. He also stated that their absence from the halls was a great 
relief, both night and day, to some three hundred other insane 
persons. 
The third charge relates to the excessive mortality among the in- 
sane sick women during five weeks in May and June last. The fact 
of this excessive death-rate is proved by the records of the alms- 
house. The cause of this excessive death-rate is attributed, in this 
charge, to the ignorance, want of experience and of medical knowl- 
edge and malpractice of Miss Marsh, the assistant physician. 
Miss Marsh is a daughter of the superintendent, thirty-six years of 
age, and a graduate of the Boston Medical College Two physicians 
who knew her when in college, testified to her ability as a student, 
and believed her to be well educated in her chosen profession. 
Another physician testified to what he believed to be her skilful 
treatment of certain eases which came under his notice, and the 
present resident physician at the almshouse, since October last, who 
has the whole supervision of the sick, sane and insane, says that 
Miss Marsh is an intelligent woman, understands her profession as 
well as average physicians of her age, and has been very successful 
in the medical treatment of some forty infants who have been under 
her immediate care, and of which none have died. Whether the 
above testimony is worth anything, those concerned in the matter 
must judge. 
There are some members of the Committee who think that it is 
rather a broad charge to lay the blame of that excessive death-rate 1954 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
to the treatment of any living physician, man or woman, young or 
old. 
We know nothing of Miss Marsh, who is charged with causing the 
death of fourteen persons in five weeks, only, when before the Com- 
mittee, she was self-possessed, clear in her statements, seemed to 
understand her profession, and answered the questions when direct 
and when under a very severe and searching examination, with 
calmness and candor. She said that Dr. Nichols, the then attending 
physician, told her she might, in some cases, have given too much 
medicine, and that probably many of the patients needed none; and 
she also said she always heeded his advice and followed his direc- 
tions, when he gave any. 
Dr. Nichols, after having been discharged as physician for inca- 
pacity by the directors, was reinstated again at the earnest request 
of some members of the board of charities. lie found Miss Marsh 
at that tiriie acting as assistant physician, and having the care of the 
insane sick women. From some cause Dr. Nichols did not choose 
for some days to visit the insane sick women, at the time of this 
large death-rate, and it is rather difficult to understand how he could 
know whether Miss Marsh overdosed the patients or not. 
There are members of this Committee who do not believe that the 
maltreatment or the no treatment of any medical man or woman had 
anything to do with the death of these women at that time. 
When we consider the actual condition of these insane women, it 
is not surprising that the death-rate among them should be large at 
any time. 
Some call this almshouse the cesspool of wretchedness, sickness 
and death. At any rate, the condition of the classes of persons who 
congregate there, or in any institution of the kind, as we go among 
them, is enough to soften the hardest heart. Insane, drunkards, 
libertines, diseased, abandoned to laziness and vice, homeless, house- 
less, friendless, they pour themselves into these institutions as their 
only hope, their last resort, and often their last home 
We must remember that the insane who enter this hospital are 
pronounced incurable, and for that very reason are admitted here. 
Seldom does any one recover. They must live and die here. They 
are the residuum of those who have been treated at the other hospitals 
till treatment has failed to restore them. They are broken in consti- 
tution, epileptics, irresponsible, idiotic. They linger out a wretched 
existence away from friends and from all that makes fife desirable. 
Is it strange that they should die, or that the death-rate should be 
large, or that, at some special times, there should be an increase of 
the rate ? 
We must insist that there should be more direct testimony to the 
fact that the treatment pursued by Miss Marsh was, as is charged, 
the actual cause of the death of fourteen insane women before we 
condemn her. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1955 
The fourth charge consists in part of a case of criminal intercourse 
between a night watchman and one of the inmates. 
The Committee were led at first to believe that the charge was 
proved, if the word of the woman was to be taken as true. Although 
there was some circumstantial evidence, not sworn to, however, 
which would seem to substantiate what she said, yet she made many 
contradictory statements, and was proved to be, by her own mouth, 
a lewd and lascivious person, and was committed as such to the 
Bridgewater Workhouse. There she stated to an official that she 
was with child by the watchman. This, however, is now known not 
to be the case. This charge was made known to the accused watch- 
man, who denied it at the time, but by the advice of the superin- 
tendent he lett the institution. Seeing this charge brought to light, 
by this examination, he wrote to the Chairman of the Committee 
requesting to be heard, and accordingly he appeared before the Com- 
mittee, and on oath denied the charge. The Committee, under the 
circumstances, could not consider it as proved. 
Other cases of licentiousness, both of men and women, were 
charged. Some of the testimony was direct, but much of it was of a 
hearsay nature. Also, charges were made that bastards were born 
of women who had intercourse with inmates at the almshouse, and 
were sent to the Bridgewater Workhouse to be confined. After a 
careful examination of the records of both institutions, two such 
bastardy cases were found in seven years. 
The undersigned have no doubt that such cases have occurred, and 
do occur, in such institutions as these. Since the present superin- 
tendent has had the charge of the institution, he has had under his 
care some forty thousand inmates, and it is not very strange that 
among such a class of persons, things of the nature mentioned should 
occur. 
A parallel was attempted to be drawn between the discipline of 
this almshouse and the Bridgewater Workhouse; but the discipline 
of an almshouse, in the very nature of things, cannot be so sti’ict as 
that of a penal institution. The inmates of Tewksbury Almshouse 
are not sentenced persons, but are those seeking relief. That fact 
should be borne in mind when we talk about discipline and force. 
The undersigned have thus far endeavored to state the various 
charges made as to the management of this institution, and in an im- 
partial manner, and in accord with the sworn testimony before us. 
In review of the whole matter, we would say that the board of state 
charities, though professing to have an oversight of this and other 
institutions, actually knew nothing of these charged abuses till they 
were informed of them from outside sources. The imprisonment of 
the insane, for instance, was brought to the notice of Dr. Allen, a 
member of the board, by a person who was passing by his office in 
Lowell. We also learn that the inspectors knew nothing of the 
imprisonment from their own inspection, and that the super- 1956 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
internment after having knowledge of the fact, did not at once put 
a stop to it. These facts show that the board of state charities 
in their action, in this case at least, depended more on outside hear- 
say evidence as to the existence of these supposed abuses, than upon 
any thorough inspection of their own. 
The imprisonment of these insane women was made wholly under 
the direction of Dr. Whittaker, the then resident physician ; and in a 
report which he then made, he stated that the imprisonment was not 
imposed as a punishment, but as medical regimen, to induce the 
patients to make some active exertion which he deemed necessary 
for their physical well-being. There was no satisfactory proof that 
any one thus imprisoned was harmed thereby; and the superinten- 
dent testified that he did not deem it his right or duty to interfere 
with the treatment which the physician thought proper. 
The inspectors, on learning of this treatment, immediately, by 
formal vote, expressed their disapproval of it, and there has been no 
recurrence of it since. 
This matter of imprisonment of those insane women was investi- 
gated a year since; and, as it was committed three years since, and 
at once abandoned, the Committee are at a loss to know what pos- 
sible benefit can be derived from bringing the matter before the 
public at this late period by the chairman of the board. 
The undersigned are convinced, from the testimony offered, that 
the improper condition of the atmosphere in the Almshouse was 
owing more to the'structure of the building than to any neglect or 
mismanagement of the superintendent. No satisfactory testimony 
was offered to substantiate delinquency of duty in this regard. And 
they think that a male night watchman should never be permitted to 
visit the female dormitories alone, and we are at a loss to conceive 
how such an improper custom should have obtained; and as fully 
reprehensible is the custom of women being allowed to visit the male 
dormitories for the purpose of making beds; and we doubt the pro- 
priety even of having men employed in the cook-room with the 
women. 
There was evidence introduced to prove that the assistant super- 
intendent— a son of the superintendent — attempted to influence the 
vote of one of the attendants. IIow far this influence was exerted 
was not shown, only that at one election the party did not vote. The 
superintendent told the man to vote as he pleased. The whole mat- 
ter was too trivial to be noticed. 
Some indirect testimony of a hearsay nature was introduced, in 
regard to the employment of parties known to be of licentious char- 
acter, but no testimony of a reliable nature was given to sustain this 
charge. 
There is one subject which has obtruded itself upon the attention 
of the Committee, which, though not the foundation of a direct 
charge, yet was constantly alluded to in our discussions, and has ex- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1957 
cited the attention of the public. We refer to the “ nepotism,” so 
called, prevailing at the institution The superintendent has seven 
persons of his own family employed in the institution. Their united 
salaries amount to live thousand dollars per annum, and their board. 
These officers are nominated by the superintendent and confirmed 
by the inspectors. The inspectors feel that no harm has grown out 
of this state of things, so far as they know. But it is doubtful 
whether it is well to suffer such a state of things to exist in any in- 
stitution of the kind. Certainly no abuse, if any existed, would ever 
be brought to light under such a peculiar administration of affairs ; 
and although the family, upon the whole, may be united in doing 
their best for the interests of the institution, yet the duties can be 
performed as well, if not better, by others, than by those whose 
family interests are one and the same for the time being. The 
superintendent is constantly suffering from the public talk which 
this arrangement elicits, and undoubtedly it would be better for all 
concerned that this state of things should cease. 
The Committee are decidedly of the opinion that the management 
of all the sick, both sane and insane, should be placed under the care 
of a capable physician, appointed by the governor, who shall have 
the appointment of his assistants, and upon whom shall rest the 
whole responsibility of the position, amenable only to the inspectors 
in matters not appertaining to his profession. 
No professional man, of any standing, will long hold a subordinate 
position like that which now is maintained at this institution, and the 
sooner this matter is remedied the better it will be for all concerned. 
The undersigned are of the opinion that the diet is too poor, and 
the attendants too few, for the comfort of these insane people. The 
propriety of massing these chronic insane as obtains at this institu- 
tion, is of doubtful expediency, though it is said that it has succeeded 
in the New York hospitals. 
So far as the undersigned have investigated the subject, they be- 
lieve that the monetary affairs of the institution are economically 
conducted. 
In concluding this Report, we would enter our protest against the 
publicity given to those charges, which was wholly uncalled for, and 
is deprecated by us as producing essential evils in the community, 
by lessening, in the public mind, that confidence in our benevolent 
institutions which they have hitherto possessed. 
Grov. Butler. That is a very good line. 
And we condemn the course pursued, in circulating through the 
public press all over the country, the charges against this institution 
“ as admitted or proved by sworn testimony or both,” when a com- 
mittee of the legislature had the whole matter under advisement, 
and had not come to the final result, thus endeavoring, on the part 1958 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
of the complainant, to forestall public opinion, and to produce a false 
impression in regard to the whole matter. 
We coincide in reporting the accompanying bill. 
Francis D. Stedman. 
George Haskell. 
William Woods. 
Then follows the bill. Shall I read the bill, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 
In the Year One Thousand Eight Hundred and Seventy-Six. 
An Act relating to the Appointment of Resident Ph.ysicians at Tewksbury 
Almshouse. 
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives, in General Court 
assembled, and by the authority of the satne, as follows : 
Section 1, The governor, with the advice and consent of the council, shall 
appoint, for the state almshouse, a resident physician competent to take charge 
of insane inmates, whose salary, subject to the approval of the governor, shall 
be fixed by the inspectors of said institution; and said physician shall, in addi- 
tion thereto, possess the same rights and privileges, relative to residence at said 
almshouse, as are now by law possessed by the superintendent thereof. 
Sect. 2. The inspectors of the state almshouse shall, within ten days from 
the passage of this act, and thereafter whenever a vacancy shall occur, within ten 
days from the occurrence of such vacancy, nominate to the governor and council 
some suitable person for resident physician at said institution, and in case of 
failure on the part of said inspectors to make such nomination within the time 
specified, the governor and council may appoint a resident physician without 
such previous nomination. 
Sect. 3. The resident physician shall immediately upon his appointment, and 
thereafter whenever a vacancy occurs, nominate to the inspectors suitable per- 
sons for the offices of first and second assistant physician, who shall hold their 
several offices during the pleasure of said inspectors, and at such salaries as 
may be fixed by them. 
Sect. 4. The resident physician shall have entire charge of, and be responsible 
for, the medical treatment of the inmates of the hospital at said almshouse, 
and of the asylum for insane; shall appoint and remove the nurses of the hos- 
pital, and the attendants of the asylum, and shall fix their several salaries subject 
to the approval of the inspectors. lie shall regulate and control the dietary of 
said hospital and asylum, and shall supervise the preparation of the food for 
these departments; he shall from time to time make requisitions upon the super, 
intendent for such food, medicines and necessaries (other than the ordinary 
almshouse supplies) as in his judgment the requirements of a well-ordered hos- 
pital demand. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300 
1959 
The Chairman. [Mr. Gilmore.] We shall be obliged to 
stop here, Mr. Brown. 
Gov. Butler. I am obliged to say to the committee that on 
Monday there is an official duty put upon me, commencing at 
half-past nine, which has been performed by every governor for 
260 years, and I suppose I must not set the example of break- 
ing the custom, and that is of attending the parade and com- 
missioning the officers of the Ancient and Honorable Artillery 
Company. Therefore I cannot be here on Monday, because, 
unfortunatel}T — 
The Chairman. On Tuesday you will be ready ? 
Gov. Butler. On Tuesday I will be ready. I want, in the 
meantime, to say to the committee, that the committee should 
direct,— I will furnish counsel on the one side, and Mr. Brown 
maj’ either do the same or go himself,— in"order to take some 
depositions, such as would be taken in the ordinary course of 
justice, in the State of New Hampshire. I have two reasons 
for that: first, it will save a great deal of time in the commit- 
tee, if the testimony is taken by deposition ; and, secondl}7, it 
will save a great expense to the State in bringing the parties 
here and keeping them from time to time ; and it may be im- 
possible in some instances, where tl*ey are official persons, or 
persons having dail}T attendance at duties, to get them here at all. 
for there is no way of compelling attendance. The statutes of 
the Commonwealth allow in every case notice to be given of 
intention to take a deposition in the State, and it is taken as it 
may be under certain rules of court, and a commission sent out 
to take it, where the party don’t choose to go himself. I would 
ask the committee to pass an order giving due and proper notice 
to the other side, as would be in the case of ordinary depositions, 
that depositions shall be taken ; and, then, I should consent to 
the other side taking depositions in the same way. 
Mr. Brown. Why can’t we agree to have the committee in- 
struct the official stenographer. 
Gov. Butler. We can’t send the official stenographer, ex- 
actly. 
Mr. Brown. Let him go before the magistrate in the locality 
and take the deposition. 
Gov. Butler. We want to go on here, and we will have him 
here. We will send a stenographer so as to take it, and it can 
be going on when you and I are not there. It will very much 
shorten the labors of the committee. I have got to take some 1960 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
five or six, and perhaps more ; and brother Brown said yesterday 
that there was a lad}’ by the name of Bowen somewhere in 
Maine. 
Mr. Brown. She is here. 
Gov. Butler. That he wanted taken. I should consent to 
it if he has any witnesses who are out of the State. It might 
be difficult for him to get some witnesses from New York, if he 
has any, here. I am content that depositions shall be taken 
there. In fact, we shall have the investigation, gentlemen of 
the committee, going on at double speed, with power in the other 
branch to sit all day and all night, if they choose. And it will 
very much shorten our investigation and lighten the expense ; 
and will be, upon my judgment, in the furtherance of justice. 
The Chairman. Proper notice will be taken of your sugges- 
tion, and the committee will now adjourn to half-past nine on 
Tuesday. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1961 
FORTY-THIRD HEARING. 
Wednesday, June 6. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Brown. 
Testimony of Alexander H. Rice (resumed). 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Referring to the letter dated March 23, 1876, which was 
read by His Excellency the Governor — 
Gov. Butler. You mean the report of the board of state 
charities. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Signed by F. B. Sanborn, S. C. 
Wrightington and Sidney Andrews, will you tell me whether 
you made a reply to that? A. Yes, 1 did. I have it here. 
[Producing a letter.] If I may be permitted — 
Gov. Butler. Allow me to see it before it is put in ; that is 
the ordinary thing to do. 
The Witness. I suppose, Mr. Chairman, that it is perfectly 
understood that 1 am here in obedience to the summons of this 
committee, and not on account of any voluntary, personal or 
partisan interest that I have in the matter of this hearing. 
Gov. Butler. I should like to ask a question or two before 
this letter is put in. Here is a letter under the heading, 
“ Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Executive Department, 
Boston ”— 
The Witness. I should like to read it myself. 
Gov. Butler. You shall have the opportunity to read it, 
but i want to read the title of it: “ Boston, December 20, 1876 : 
To the Chairman of the Board of State Charities.” It seems to be 
an official letter, and on the back of it is “ 1876, response of 
Gov. Rice to the Board’s communication of Mar. 23, 1876, 
relative to the State Almshouse. Received Dec. 20, 1876. 
On file.” 1962 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Is there any copy of this letter on 
tile in the executive department? A. This is the original, 
sir. 
Q. And you obtained it from our fdes or from the files of 
the state board of charities ? A. I will make that statement, 
sir. When I was here on Friday last, I came without referring 
to any documents or papers whatsoever, and I was obliged to 
trust to my memory about circumstances and events which hap- 
pened several years ago. Since that time 1 have been in New 
York, and, returning and thinking of the matter, it occurred to 
me that I did make an official reply to the letter, which was read 
by His Excellency on Friday last. And inasmuch as the papers 
and documents belonging to me, while I was in the executive 
department, were removed at the close of the year 1878 to my 
warehouse on Federal Street, and were destroyed by fire in the last 
days of December, 1878, I had no documentary papers to which I 
could refer. I consequently came up to the State House and made 
inquiry at the office of the board of health, lunacy and char it}’, 
I believe it is now called, for any copy that might be on 
file there of any reply that I did make to the com- 
munication of the board of state charities in 1876 ; and 
this was furnished me for use on the present occasion. 
I stated the other day — if there be no objection — that 
I went to Tewksbury and made a careful inspection of the 
state almshouse. That I did in the same spirit and in the 
same manner in which I inspected the other institutions of the 
State. I had nothing specially for or against Tewksbury. I 
went first to Tewksbury in consequence, as I stated the other 
day, of certain rumors in respect to its condition. The com- 
munication which was read by IIis Excellency on Friday is, of 
course, fresh in the minds of the committee ; and this is the 
reply : — 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 
Executive Department, 
Boston,Dec. 20, 1876. 
To the Chairman of the Board of Stale Charities: 
Sir,—I duly received a communication addressed to me by the 
Board of State Charities under date of March 23, 1876, relating to 
matters at the Slate Almshouse at Tewksbury. To that communi- 
cation no formal reply has hitherto been made, and I am informed 
that such w’ould be acceptable to the Board. 
Simultaneously with the receipt of the communication of the 
Board, an investigation of the affairs of the almshouse in question 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1963 
was in progress by a Committee of the Legislature, and it was not 
by me deemed expedient to institute a similar investigation, or any 
investigation until that already in progress had been concluded. The 
Reports of the Committee were in due time submitted and acted 
upon by the Legislature, and the ehanges in administration' therein 
suggested have, for the most part, been adopted, and a spirit of 
reform instituted, which has resulted in admitted and manifest 
improvement. 
Many of the allegations in the communication addressed to me by 
the Board of State Charities, referred to events and persons in re- 
spect to whom no practical benefit could accrue to the institution 
from additional investigation. 
I paid an early visit to the institution soon after the action of the 
Legislature upon the Report of the Committee was communicated to 
me. Being more desirous of ascertaining the actual condition of the 
institution, than to solve the merits of differences of opinion respect- 
ing its administration, or of any personal controversy whatever, T 
addressed myself to as thorough and specific an examination of the 
buildings, equipments and supplies, and to the different classes of' 
the inmates as the visit permitted; all of which I found more satis- 
factory than I expected. 
It cannot be said that the institution is in excellence beyond criti- 
cism ; and with considerable personal experience in connection with 
this class of establishments, I have seldom seen one that is. Some 
facts involved in the heterogeneous character of the great family 
gathered at Tewksbury — embracing, as it does, all age$ from infan- 
cy to old age, both sexes, many nationalities, every variety of pre- 
vious social and physical condition, sane and insane, render its 
successful administration fraught with uncommon difficulties. These 
should not excuse wilful neglect, nor tolerate incompetency; but 
they should be allowed their proper weight of consideration where 
there is respectable ability and honest purpose in the administration 
of a public institution. One of the inspectors of the almshouse, 
whose term of office expired, has been transferred, and a successor 
at the almshouse board has been appointed. It has not appeared to 
me necessary to make further changes in the board o. inspectors at 
present. The medical staff at the institution has been re-organized, 
and the objectional personal features of it have been removed* 
Three members of the superintendent’s family have dissolved official 
connection with the institution. It is my intention to encourage 
excellence, and to reform abuses in this and in all the other public 
institutions, so far as they come to my knowledge, and by means 
which commend themselves to my judgment, and in accordance 
with law. 
1 heartily commend all the vigilance of the Board of State Chan- 
ties in the performance of their difficult and highly responsible labors ; 
and it is my desire to co-operate with them in all measures which 1964 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
shall promote the welfare of the State, and the better condition of 
the unfortunate and destitute classes who come under their super- 
vision. If, in so doing, within the sphere of my own duties and re- 
sponsibilities, I should fail to always coincide in my convictions 
respecting either persons or measures with the board, I trust that any 
such failure will not be interpreted into disrespect for its wisdom 
or its integrity. 
Very respectfully yours, 
Alexander H. Rice. 
I would like to add, Mr. Chairman, — if there be n > objec- 
tion— inasmuch as it was intimated the other day that I possi- 
bly might not have fulfilled the full measure of my official dut}’ 
in this relation, that at the time this correspondence took place, 
I was young in office ; I knew from practical observation very 
little about the State institutions, but I addressed myself, if I 
may be permitted to say so, with proper diligence during that 
year 1876 to acquaint myself with every State institution and 
with the organization upon which they rest. I wish to say that 
the result was not very satisfactory to me. I was not influ- 
enced by the mere administration of any of the institutions or 
of their improper conditions at the time, but I was led to be- 
lieve that many of the defects such as existed in the institutions 
were attributable more to faulty organization than to the admin- 
istration of the institutions themselves by their local supervis- 
ors. I therefore, in my communication to the legislature in 
1877, the next year, said : [Reading.] 
“The labor and discrimination of a body of judicious persons, ac- 
quainted with the practical working of the law and of our charitable 
institutions and system could now be well bestowed for a few months 
in collating and revising all the existing statutes in regard to pau- 
perism, crime and insanity ; so that the present or the next General 
Court may repeal such of them as are obsolete, equivocal or conflict- 
ing, and condense the remainder into a few concise chapters, instead 
of leaving them, as now, scattered through twenty volumes, with 
judicial decisions modifying them in as many more volumes of re- 
ports. The Board of Charities has done what it could in this respect; 
but its powers are insufficient, and its members too fully occupied, to 
accomplish all that is desirable.” 
And now one paragraph more : 
“ These institutions, ten or twelve in number, including four hos- 
pitals for the insane, a large State almshouse, two reformatories, 
three schools, and three prisons, are now governed each by its 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1965 
own superintendent and board of trustees or inspectors, between 
whom there is little consultation or co-operation. Except the Blind 
Asylum, which now reports to the Board of Education, they are all 
under the general supervision of the Board of State Charities, which 
possesses also certain powers of administration in regard to many of 
them. The Prison Commission exercises other powers concerning 
two of the prisons, at Shei’born and at Bridgewater. But neither of 
the supervisory commissions has any direct power to regulate expen- 
diture nor to correct the management of any institution, these mat- 
ters being left to the local boards of inspectors or trustees. Even 
these last may have no control of the appropriations for rebuilding or 
remodelling an establishment, though they often direct construction 
and repairs. But in this divided jurisdiction, a conflict of authori- 
ties may easily arise, while the subdivision of responsibility some- 
times acts unfavorably in point of economy. The great expenditure 
for new public buildings, within the five years since the close of 1871» 
is an illustration of this, which has more than once been cited, but 
which has lost none of it force by repeated remark The union of 
several of these local boards of inspectors and trustees, in a single 
board, for each branch of the public charities, or some other mode of 
simplifying and concentrating the management of these institutions, 
is much to be desired.” 
Then in my address the following year, namely, 1878, in 
speaking of the State charities and the necessity for reorganiza- 
tion, I said : — 
“ With this end in view, the legislature, in May last, authorized the 
appointment of a commission of three persons to inquire into the 
expediency of revising the system of administration of the public 
charities and reformatory institutions of the Commonwealth, and all 
the existing statutes in regard to pauperism, crime and insanity, 
with a view to secure greater simplicity, economy and efficiency in 
said administration. In view of the comprehensive scope of the act, 
which in its fulfilment would go to the root of the matter and 
scrutinize the laws, institutions and supervision, it will be regretted 
that the commission was so small in number as to render impractica- 
ble the distribution of so vast a labor into desirable details. The re- 
port, which will soon be placed before you, will show the magnitude 
and necessity of the work undertaken by the commission, and the 
diligence with which it has been prosecuted.” 
Then follows, which I will not read, except the first para- 
graph, as follows : — 
“ The commission will recommend,— 
“ I. That the Board of State Charities, the boards of trustees of 1966 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the several State lunatic hospitals, of the State Reform and the State 
Industrial Schools, the inspectors of the State Almshouse, of the State 
Workhouse, of the State Primary School and of the State Prison, the 
Board of Prison Commissioners and the various Advisory Boards of 
Women, be abolished.” 
Then follows a statement of what the commission will recom- 
mend in further support of a governing Board of Health, 
Lunacy and Charity. I wish simply to say, therefore, that if 
there was any failure on my part of proper diligence in looking 
after these institutions, it must be found outside of what is 
stated in my reply to the Board of State Charities, the recom- 
mendation for a thorough reform of the whole system, the ap- 
pointment of a commission on my recommendation, the report 
of that commission and the reorganization which took place, so 
far as personal appointments were concerned, by my immediate 
successors in office. 
Mr. Brown. Will you look at that chapter, 291 of the Acts 
of 1879, and tell me whether that was the culmination of your 
effort to reorganize that board ? 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; he cannot tell you, because he 
was out of office at that time. 
The Witness. Yes, I was; my official term was in 1876, 
1877 and 1878. 
Gov. Butler. That was under Gov. Talbot, and if you wrill 
look you will find that there is but one recommendation carried 
out there. That was the trouble. Just what I recommended,— 
that all .this machinery of separate boards should be abolished 
and there should be one head. • And that is exactly what was 
not done. 
The Witness. Well, 1 submit that it is no fault of mine. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; you are not on trial, Gov. Rice ; 
only your little inspection up at the almshouse. 
Mr. Brown. I want to call the attention of the committee to 
chapter 291 of the Acts of 1879. 
The Chairman. Is that a statute providing for the reorgan- 
ization? 
Gov. Butler. That is the present statute. 
Mr. Brown. That is the statute under which the present 
board was created.—I have no further questions, Governor. 
Gov,. Butler. I have one or two, sir. Will you let me take 
that letter? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1967 
Mr. Brown. The reporters have taken it down-stairs to mani- 
fold it. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know that I want it particularly’. 
Q. Now, Governor, I want to make an inquiry or two about 
this letter. This seems to be an official letter from 3rou to an 
official person in the State about the State government? A. 
Of the State government? 
Q. About the State government; about the whole of it. 
Now, then, will you tell me—you say that you took away, at the 
end of your term of office, all the letters and all the documents 
which belonged to you, from the executive office. Did you take 
away this, or the original, or the copy which should be on file? 
A. I did not; that is the original. 
Q. This is the original; but this was not in the executive 
office. There ought to be something in the executive office to 
show that such a document had gone out. Did you take away 
that copy? A. I don’t know but that in the letter-books of the 
executive office there may be that copy ; I don’t know. 
Q. Pardon me ; didn’t you take away the press-copy books ? 
A. Of my personal correspondence? I took whatever belonged 
to me, and nothing that belonged to the Commonwealth. 
Q. I am not going into the question of property now, sir; 
we have had that sufficiently discussed up here by’ Mr. Charles 
Marsh. I am now upon the question whether you took away 
the copy-book that contained that letter? A. I don’t know 
anything about it, sir; if it belonged to me I took it away, if 
it belonged to the Commonwealth I left it. 
Q. Do you know whether it is gone or not? A. No; I 
have not been into the executive office since my official connec- 
tion with it, except to attend the inauguration of governors or 
on incidental business. 
Q. Now, sir, is it not a fact that all the copies of letters 
written by’ y’ou have been taken byr you? A. My personal let- 
ters have been taken by me. 
Q. Well, sir, were there personal letters kept in the same 
copy-book with this? A. I think not. 
Q. Don’t you know? A. I am not accustomed to mix my 
official and personal correspondence. 
Q. That may7 be, sir ; I don’t wish to show that. But, now, 
do you not know, Governor,— do you not know, Mr. Rice, that 
Re-cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1968 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
you did take all tbe correspondence like this which was 
copied in the office? A. Why, your .Excellency, I should not 
quibble with you on any small matters. If I took away any 
official correspondence, or any property belonging to the State, 
I should say so. 
Q. I am not on the question of quibbling, sir; I want to 
know if you didn’t do it, that is all, and if I find you didn’t, I 
will try to find who did. A. That is all right. 
Q. I am not quibbling about it. Qui s’excuse, s'accuse. 
Well, now, you excuse yourself for not finding this letter except 
in the office of the board of state charities, because the pa- 
pers that you took away from the State House were burned in 
your warehouse in 1878. Why should you think to look among 
your files if you no such thing as this away? A. I beg 
pardon of your Excellency ; I have not excused myself on any 
point, and 1 do not. I have stated, very distinctly, 1 think, 
what I have officially done and said on this subject, and I have 
no excuse to offer. 
Q. I am not upon that point, sir. You put before us that 
you could not look among your papers for this, because they 
were burned. A. The reason why I didn’t look, when I wished 
the document, was that I knew the papers were destroyed. 
Then, again, if you will excuse me, your Excellency — 
Gov. Butler. Well, I will this time, but I must stop some- 
where. 
The Witness. If I were going to present an official commu- 
nication in evidence to this committee, I should desire to present 
it in a document on file in some department of the government. 
Q. But what you told us was, that these papers were gone, 
and therefore you came up here. Well, now, then, we have 
learned that the first letter, as this letter shows, addressed to 
you by the board of state charities, was dated March 23, 187G. 
And you say you did not institute an investigation, because one 
had already gone on — was already going on. That, we have 
learned, stopped on April G, 1876 ; at least, we have got their 
report. Now, then, you didn’t answer this letter until December 
20, 1866. Sufficiently and legally answering the question? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, that official communication from the board of 
state charities made accusations against a number of the peo- 
ple in the almshouse ; against old Mrs. Marsh, the matron, for 
stealing propeity of the dead and absconded people. You didn’t, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1969 
either in this or in your report of what you investigated, —}7ou 
didn’t mention to them that you investigated it, did you ? A. 
Well, the answer to that, your Excellency7, is, that I went to 
Tewksbury to inspect the institution, and not to make an inves- 
tigation, which the legislature had already done. 
Q. But the legislature hadn’t investigated this charge. The 
charges that they investigated were three or four. 
Mr. Brown. Five. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, five ; but didn’t include this one. 
Q. You went there. Did you go because they" requested 
you? A. No, sir; not specially. That communication was 
among the reasons which made me take Tewksbury first in 
order. 
Q. Then you didn’t go on account of that? A. Not on 
account of that alone. 
Q. Only you went there first on account of that. Did you 
inspect a single thing that the}" asked you to look into? A. 1 
went there, and inspected the institution thoroughly. 
Q. I understand what you say7. You inspected it, even to 
the wiping of the dishes. A. Yes, sir. • • 
Q. Very well; but did you inspect or examine into a single 
thing which their communication called for? A. I make a dis- 
tinction, your Excellency, between inspection and investiga- 
tion. I did not go there to investigate charges against per- 
sons contained either in the communication to me from the 
board of state charities, or in the flying rumors about. I went 
there to satisfy m3’self of the condition of the institution at 
that time, leaving for other parties — 
Q. What other parties? A. Namely7, the legislature, that 
already" had the subject in hand, to determine upon the merits 
or demerits of the charges. 
Q. Ah! but these charges, some of them, and the gravest 
ones, in my judgment, were not before the legislature. A. 1 
wish to remind your Excellenc}r, that the matters referred to in 
the letter of the board of state charities had been communi- 
cated to Governor Washburn. 
Gov. Butler. Be it so. 
The Witness. He was succeeded by Governor Talbot. 
Gov. Butler. Be it so. 
The Witness. And he was succeeded by Governor G^aston. 
Gov, Butler. Be it so. 
The Witness. And neither of these three of my- immediate 1970 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
predecessors had foundjt expedient to take any notice of them. 
They had that information before T had it. 
Q. Precisely so. And all these governors, for the sake of 
the argument we will admit, hadn’t done their duty, in the view 
of the board of state charities; and thereupon, the board of 
state charities renewed the application for you to go and do it; 
and you didn’t. Now keep to this: did you look into a single 
thing that the board of state charities asked you to look into? 
A. I don’t intend to say that I investigated the charges that 
were sent by the board of state charities. 
Q. Will you answer my question ? A. No, sir ; I will not 
answer it —. 
Q. Pardon me ; I think 3’ou will, if it is a proper question. 
A. —Except in m3’ own wa3T. 
Q. Now, I am not asking yTou what you intended to do. I 
am not asking 3-ou about ain’ frame of mind that 3*011 were in, 
but I am asking 3Tou what you did do. Did you or did 3Tou not 
look into an3T one of the things which the board of state 
charities had officially brought to 3'our attention and asked 3’ou 
to look into ? I mean look into it so as to cover both inspection 
and investigation. And so that there shall be no mistake about 
it I will repeat the question : Did 3tou look into one single thing, 
when 3’ou went there, that the board of state charities 
asked yTou to look into? Sa3T yes or no. A. I don’t know 
that the3r asked me to look into auditing. I was not under the 
direction of the board of state charities. They were under 
my direction, partly’. 
Q. Pardon me ; I didn’t ask 3Tou that question. I asked you 
whether you did look into anything which they asked 3rou to 
look into? A. In so far as the3r desired me to look into the 
condition of the institution at Tewksbury I did look into it 
thoroughly. 
Q. Did they ask you to look into the condition? A. The3r 
reported to me certain facts in relation to the institution, that 
is, the almshouse at Tewksbmy; and their communication 
which tlie3T sent to me had previously been sent to other 
governors. 1 didn’t make any investigation of the charges 
because those were alreacty investigated 1>3T the legislature. 
Q. I must insist upon an answer; no evasion. A. There 
is no evasion. 
Q. Then answer the question. A. Yes, sir ; 1 am answer- 
ing. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1971 
Q. Did you look into tlic things which they asked you to 
look into? A. Will you specify them, please? . 
Q. They are all in the letter. A. I have not the letter 
before me. 
Q. Well, did you go there to look into any of these things 
they asked you to look into? A. I went there of my own 
volition to inspect the institution and satisfy myself of its con- 
dition, and I did so. 
Q. And you did so? A. And I left the investigation of 
personal charges to the legislature. 
Q. Well, but the legislature*had then been adjourned some 
weeks, hadn’t it? A. The committee had just made its 
investigation and had reported. 
Q. Well, let us see ; the letter was sent to you on the 23d of 
March [from the board of state charities] ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The committee of the legislature had made its report on 
the 6th of April, and they had adjourned, and you went there 
on the 23d of June. Those are the dates. Now, then, only a 
portion of those charges that the legislature had to deal with 
were in }rour letter, and many more. Now, then, did they ask 
3*011 to look to see whether the pots and pans were clean? Was 
that one of their troubles? A. Well, sir, I wish to say that 
when I was in the executive office I did not take my directions 
as to how I should do things, or when I should do them, from 
anybody. I chose my own time and my own way of doing 
things. 
Q. Exactly. Pardon me ; I am only asking whether at your 
own time and in your own way 3*011 accomplished any object 
toward finding out the truth about the condition of that institu- 
tion as brought to 3*0111* attention by the board of state 
charities. A. I think I did, sir. 
Q. In what? A. In the report of the legislative com 
mittee. 
Q. In what? A. What is stated in 1113* letter here. 
Q. Well, let us see. That was nine months afterward. A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Pretty near ; over six? A. No, sir. 
Q. Over six? A. The reply? Oh, yes, undoubtedly, but 
not the action. 
Q. Now, then, we won’t have what you thought about when 
you were writing your inaugural address in 1876 for the next 1972 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr, 
year, but we will have, if you please, what you did at the 
time. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, did the}’- ask you to see whether the institution was 
clean or not? A. Your Excellency read the letter to the com- 
mittee, and you are as well informed on that as I am. 
Q. Oh, not at all. I read it casually, not officially. A. 
Whether they did or not, your Excellency, 1 examined the alms- 
house as you would, on your own methods. 
Q. I wish }Tou would leave that out; I want to know what 
was done. A. I wish }'on would leave your question out. 
Q. I have no doubt you do sir; but I want to get the 
points in my mind before you, and see if I can get an answer. 
A. I have it clearly before me. 
Q. If you have I can make but one deduction. The point 
I want to get at is this : here was a supervisory board of the 
State, making a report to you that in their judgment and belief, 
upon the evidence furnished to them, that the matron had stolen 
the clothing of the inmates, that the assistant superintendent 
was a libertine, that one of the inmates had been killed by cruel 
treatment, that the 'system of ventilation was so bad as to be 
mephitic, that there had been gross nepotism, and that the whole 
Marsh family, including the superintendent, ought to be re- 
moved. That was the substances of the charges. Now, then, 
into any one of these inquiries to which your attention was 
directed did you make any inspection or investigation? — Ah, 
there is one I left out — and that the doctress had killed seven 
or eight people ; one of the Marsh family. Now, into any one of 
those things did you look or inquire when you went there ? A. 
In regard to any criminal charges that are contained in tin; let- 
ter there, they had been the subject of investigation by the leg- 
islature. 
Q. No, the}7 had not. A. I went there for the purpose of 
investigating the charges against local officers or inspectors. 
Q. Then you never attempted to look into or remedy any of 
the things which were then charged by the board of state char- 
ities? A. Your Excellency will pardon me; I not only did 
that, but I recommended the abolition of the entire system of 
the board of state charities, inspectors and everybody else, and 
that the whole matter should be reorganized ; and that was done. 
Q. Don’t hurry about that. Perhaps we shall find it was not 
done. But in the meantime you left it all just as it was, except 
that you thought that the old lady and Helen, the aunt, who was 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
1973 
a cook, had better be left out of the administration up there ? 
A. Three members of the family of the superintendent re- 
tired, a new physician was appointed, and a change was made in 
the board of inspectors. 
Q. That was made by law ; because the law was changed. 
A. With regard to the physician? 
Q. No ; with regard to the others. Three ; which three were 
they? A. I cannot tell you their names, sir. 
Q. Pardon me ; you didn’t tell us there were more than two 
when you spoke about it before. A. I was not certain about 
those ; the only one I felt quite certain about was the physi- 
cian. 
Q. Now, then, when you came to make your letter to the 
board of state charities which you have read, that was dated 
about the time when you were making your inaugural address 
for 1877, from which you have read to us, was it not? A. It 
must have been ; yes, sir. 
Q. Yes ; about the same time. And in your inaugural ad- 
dress you recommended that the board be abolished, and not 
the superintendency of Tewksbury. So that the result was 
that the board’s complaints were never looked into, but yo.u 
recommended their abolition after they made complaint. That 
was so, was it not? A. I think those documents tell the story, 
sir. 
Q. Well, the documents — I want to know about that. 
Now, then, you didn’t examine the complaints of this board of 
state charities at all; but the official act you did about it was 
to recommend the abolition of the board ? A. That is a gratui- 
tous conclusion of your Excellency’s. 
Q. What? A. That is a gratuitous conclusion of your 
Excellency’s. 
Q. Pardon me ; let us see if it is a gratuitous conclusion. 
Tell me any official act you did about these complaints until you 
recommended in your address that the board should be abol- 
ished. A. I have already stated that I went to Tewksbury 
and inspected the institution there as I did the others ; but the 
matter of investigating charges was left to the legislature. I 
wish to make that distinction. 
Q. You have told that, I should think, ten times, and you 
need not tell it again as far as I am concerned. If you think it 
is necessary for you to tell it— A. I should like the oppor- 
tunity to tell it. 1974 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Now, then, tell me the official act you did about those 
charges, except to recommend that the board who made them 
should be dissolved. A. I acted upon the report of the legis- 
lature. 
Q. What was the act? A. The act? 
Q. Yes. A. The act was the retirement of three members 
of Mr. Marsh’s family, the displacement of one of the inspec- 
tors, the appointment of a new physician, and perhaps, some 
others. 
Q. That was not on account of the charges. A. Those are 
the charges. 
Q. Won’t 3'ou understand my question and answer it, if you 
can understand and answer it. What official act did you do 
about those charges except to recommend the removal of the 
board that made them? A. I acted upon those charges in 
connection with other rumors and other information in such 
manner as seemed to me was demanded by the welfare of the 
Commonwealth and the welfare of the institution concerned. 
Q. That is a generalization again. You told us you didn’t 
do anything about those charges up there when you inspected ? 
A- No. 
Q. Now, then, there was not anything done on the inspec- 
tion ? Now, then, what act did you do about those charges ? There 
was no charge against the inspectors? A. They were among 
the causes that led me to recommend the reorganization of the 
whole system. 
Q. Precisely so. Then I get it. Then, without exainin- 
tion of the charges, into the truth or falsity of the charges, made 
b}r the board of state charities, you allowed them to be among 
the reasons why you should abolish the board? A. No. The 
statement of the board of state charities was on one hand ; 
the statement of the report of the legislative committee was on 
another hand. Then I had information from various sources. 
I didn’t act upon any one of these specifically in detail. I 
made my own judgment of what my official duty was. 
Q. Now, then, the legislature of that year didn’t follow 
your recommendations, did they ? They didn’t abolish any- 
body? A. In 1877? 
Q. Yes. A. They appointed a commission. 
Q. To revise the law? A. And to recommend a new 
system. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1975 
Q. Principally they appointed a commission? A. They 
appointed a commission. 
Q. And that commission reported, as you was kind enough 
to read to us, that all the boards of trustees of these several 
institutions should be abolished? A. Those that they enu- 
merated. 
Q. Well, that was all of them ; to put the thing under one 
head. That was not done bj' that legislature — by the next 
legislature? A. That committee, your Excellency, reported to 
the next legislature. 
Q. I know ; to the legislature of 1878. And the legislature 
of 1878 didn’t do it. Now, then, was there anything done in 
1879, to your knowledge, except to abolish the board of state 
charities? A. That is a matter of record which your Excel- 
lency has access to as well as I. 
Q. Precisely ; but I want to get }Tour mind upon it, your 
remembrance. Do you remember anything that was done? 
Did they abolish a single board of inspection, a single board of 
prison commissioners, a single board of lunatic hospital trus- 
tees, a single reformatory board of any description, except the 
board of state charities who had complained of the Marshes? 
A. I am not responsible for anything they did or did not do in 
1879. 
Q. I am not asking about your responsibility ; I am only 
asking the act. A. I should have to appeal to the records 
and see before I could answer. 
Q. You don’t know of anything they did about that, do 
you? A. I didn’t feel the responsibility about it, and I don’t 
remember precisely. 
Q. You don’t remember. Well now, then, }tou say you ex- 
amined this institution as 3011 did the other institutions? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And no other in a different way ? A. Except the nature 
of the institution in some cases might have required some little 
variation in detail. 
Q. Except what was necessary to look into an insane de- 
partment when they had one ; you would not look into one 
where they hadn’t one, of course ? A. Precisely. 
Q. In no other way. Now, was there any such charges as 
these brought by the board of state charities against any other 
institution, to your knowledge, to your remembrance? A. 1 
don’t recall any, sir. 1976 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Now, then, did yon appoint Mr. Spalding a trustee? A. 
I think I did. He was appointed inspector under the old sys- 
tem, 1 think. 
Q. You never were under the new system? A. No, sir. 
Q. Therefore he must have been under the old system. 
That is to say, when an inspector’s time expired, you appointed 
another? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And we have now the entire reforms which you insti- 
tuted, so far as you remember, in the matter of the State char- 
itable or reformatory institutions during the time of your 
incumbency, haven’t we? A. J am not responsible for the — 
Q. I am not asking 3 011 that. Pardon me. Good Lord ! 
What makes you think that 3Tou are all the time? What I am 
asking 3Tou all the time is if this is all did? A. I made 
various inspections. 
Q. What? A. In following I made inspection of 
the institutions. 
Q. But this first time was not a reform, it was an inspec- 
tion. And just there it puts me in mind of this question : 
How do you know that 3 0111' telegram was not received until an 
hour before you got there ? You took care to them that 
3tou were coming. How do you know it was not received? A. 
Would you like to know why I notified them. 
Q. 1 am asking now about the reception? A. That was 
the statement made at the almshouse. 
Q. Who made that statement? A. It was made at the 
almshouse. 
Q. They said it had not been received : that is all that ywi 
know about? Now was not 3rou expressly asked in this letter, 
“ Don’t let them know that are coming, because they will 
clean up?” A. In the letter of the board? 
Q. Yes. A. I don’t remember that, sir. It would have 
made no difference. 
Q. it would have made no difference, I can 
understand that; 3’ou would have notified them all the same. 
But didn’t the}7 ask 3rou not to? A. Your Excellency seems 
to suppose that I was the instrument and servant of the board 
of state charities to do their bidding when and how they should 
say. 
Q. Oh, no ; oh, no. A. If the board of slate charities 
had ordered me to go I should have point blank refused. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1977 
Q. Certainly, just as when they order me to sign a warrant 
1 shall point blank refuse to do it? A. Precisely. 
Q. There need not be any difficulty on that subject. A. 
There are certain prerogatives that belong to the executive 
office. 
Q. Certainly; and we will take care of them, both of us. 
But this is the difference. If they should say: “ Now when 
you go to inspect there they are in the habit of cleaning up 
whenever they find out you are coming ; }tou had better not 
notify them,”— whether that would be a kindly suggestion if 
you wanted to find out the truth of the charges? I should sup- 
pose you would have been very likely to have adopted it. 
It is not an order, it is a suggestion. A. I see the thought in 
your Excellency’s mind and I will answer the question frankly, 
if you will permit me. 
Q. Certainly. A. I had never seen Mr. Marsh nor an}T 
member of his family to my knowledge before I went to Tewks- 
bury. I had heard these rumors; and I said to my private 
secretary on that afternoon before we went up there : “I wish 
you would telegraph to Tewksbury late this afternoon that the 
governor and council will be there tomorrow morning. The 
of doing that was twofold. One was that the notice 
should be so late that they should not have time to change the 
ordinary condition of the institution and should see it in its or- 
dinary state ; the second one was to notify Mr. Marsh so that 
lie should be there and not be absent from tlie institution when 
we arrived. That is the whole of it, sir. 
Q. Precisely. And as it was so late in the afternoon even 
if he had got it he could not have got it so as to be there ? 
That would have been so too ! Now, was it not known and 
published in the newspapers that the governor and council 
were going to make up their inspection ? A. I don’t think 
that was possible. 
Q. Why not? A. Because no notice was given about it 
until very late in the afternoon. 
Q. Did you go up there in the afternoon of a council day or 
the morning next after a council meeting? A. I could not 
say that, Governor, without referring to the record. 
Q. Well, did you look to see—was there a dinner pre- 
pared for you — a lunch? A. There was a lunch prepared 
after we got there, but no dinner. 1978 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. How do you know that? Did you see it prepared? A. 
I saw the room in which it was served before where we lunched. 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly. 
The Witness. There was no sign of preparation. 
Q. The table was not laid from eight o’clock until two. 
I should suppose. Well, if I understand you, you asked the 
inmates — talked with the inmates there. Am I right? A. 
No lengthy conversation; I spoke with them as I passed 
through. 
Q. Then, as you were not investigating the charges you did 
not have any conversation with them about that? A. I asked 
them if they were comfortable, if had plenty of food, etc.,— 
the ordinary questions such as your Excellency would ask if 
you were visiting such a place. 
Q. Now, if you will have the kindness to leave that out I 
would like it; because I should not have asked any such thing 
in that way if I had been investigating, for I should have ex- 
pected to get the same answer that you did. I never knew a 
man to complain to me when the man that had him in his power 
stood over him. 1 generally take him one side. Well, then, 
you were investigating a little into complaints ? A. No. 
Q. But you were asking them if they had any to make? A. 
No. 
Q. Then, instead of asking them if they had any complaint 
to make, or investigating them, you didn’t get any? A. I 
asked them the ordinary questions. If the}’ had had any com- 
plaints to make they had opportunity to make them. 
Q. Yes, but you didn’t tell them so, did you ? A. I cannot 
say that I did. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think of any other question to ask 
you until T look into the state of the records below. 
Testimony of Miriam P. Bowen (sworn). 
Q. What is your full name ? A. Miriam P. 
Q. Miriam P. Bowen? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You were the wife of William V. Bowen, who lived in 
Chelsea? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When were you married to Mr. Bowen? A. Forty- 
nine years ago last October. 
Q. Last when? A. Last October. 
Q. Did he ever have any other wife? A. No, sir. 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1979 
Q. When did lie die? A. lie died six years ago the thir- 
teenth of April. 
Q. Did you ever have any other husband ? A. No, sir. 
Q. How many children did you have? A. I never had a 
child of my own. 
Q. How many did you adopt? A. One. 
Q. What was the name of that child? A. Eva May Gor- 
don. 
Q. Where was she when you adopted her? A. In Port- 
land. 
Q. In Portland, Maine ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you change her name when she was adopted? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. What name did you give her on the occasion of her 
adoption? A. MarjT Eva Bowen. 
Q. Mary Eva Bowen? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I am unable 
to get any record of that adoption, and the reason assigned is 
that the records of that were all destroyed by the great tire at 
Portland. 
The Chairman. In 1866? 
Mr. Brown. In July, 1866. 
Q. How old was Eva Mary Gordon when you took her for 
adoption ? A. She was two years old in February before she 
was adopted ; I think she was three years old. 
Gov. Butler. Perhaps she can tell what year. 
Q. What year was that? A. Well, I don’t know as I can 
answer that correctly. 
Q. When did your husband come to Boston, or to Chelsea, 
or to Newton ; when did he come to Massachusetts first? Can 
you recollect that year ? A. I don’t think I can. 
Q. Well, with reference to the Portland fire, can you tell 
whether it was before or after? A. The fire was while we 
were in Chelsea. 
Q. While you were in Chelsea? A. No, sir; while we 
were in Newton. 
Q. So that you came before the Portland fire to Newton? 
A. Yes, sir ; we did. 
Q. When you first came to Massachusetts you moved to 
Newton, did you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then you moved to Chelsea? A. Yes, sir. 1980 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. And 3’ou lived in Chelsea when your husband died, did 
you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that when you left Portland the fire had not taken 
place? What was called the great fire? A. No, sir. 
Q. How many children did you raise beside this Mary Eva 
Bowen? A. Well, I had a niece live with me from the time 
she was ten years old until she was married. She was married 
when she was twenty-one. And I had another niece that lived 
with me from the time she was five years old, — with me 
now. 
Q. Any others? A. Well, we had several live with us 
five or six years. 
Q. Taken when they were children? A. Well, from twelve 
to thirteen. 
Q. But none of them were adopted except this one? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. That is, you didn’t go through any form of law? A. 
No, sir ; not any form of law. 
Mr. Brown. No change of name. 
Gov. Butler. Were these four or five her relatives? 
Q. Were they all your relatives that you took besides this 
Mary Eva Bowen? A. Two of them. My oldest brother’s 
youngest child was given to me when he died, and 1113’ oldest 
sister’s child, ten 3rears old, was given to me. 
Q. The other two, were the3r relatives of yours? A. No, 
sir. 
Gov. Butler. Or of Mr. Bowen ? 
Q. Or of Mr. Bowen ? A. No, sir, neither. 
Q. Now, when did Mary Eva Bowen first leave her home 
after 3’ou moved to Chelsea ? A. I think it was in October. 
Q. . What I think it was six 3'ears ago last October. 
Gov. Butlbr. Ask her how long it was before she had the 
baby. 
Q. Well, how long was it when she left home, — how long 
was that before she had a child in Oak Place? A. In Feb- 
ruaiy ; I think she left in October. 
Q. You think she left in October? A. I think so; I am 
not certain. 
Q. Did she leave home with your consent? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you know when she left? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did she leave in the daytime or in the nighttime? A. 
In the daytime, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1981 
Q. How long was she absent before yon knew anything 
about her? A. I think it was a week, but I am not certain. 
Q. Do 3*011 now recall whom 3*011 employed, if an3Tbody, to 
look her up? A. I think 1113" husband had a letter from a law 
student from Cambridge, telling him where she was ; sent her 
picture in a letter. 
Q. Do 3rou recollect Mrs. Pearson in that connection? A. 
Mrs. Pearson was after we found where she was. 
Q. Now, did she come to your home after she left., and 
before she had the child? A. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. 
Q. Did not return ? A. No, sir. 
Q. During the months from October until the birth of the 
child on the 26th of March, 1875, she didn’t come to your 
house? A. No, sir, not to m3* knowledge. 
Q. Did you visit here at Oak Place where she was for the 
purposes of confinement? A. I did, sir. 
Q. How many times? A. I was there twice. 
Q. What, if anything, did 3*011 do for her comfort while she 
was there? A. Well, I made her things. 
Q. Such as what? A. Such as clothes. 
Q. Clothes for the bab3* ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you make them with 3*0111* own hands? A. I did, 
sir. 
Q. What did 3*011 make ? A. I could not tell exactly. 
Q. You made everything 3*011 thought was necessar3T for 
the comfort of the child and the mother? For the comfort of 
the child and the mother too. 
Q. Now, after the birth of the child, did she come to 3*our 
house in Chelsea? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do 3*011 recollect when she was sent to Dedham? A. 
She was sent to Dedham from Oak Place when the child was 
four weeks old. 
Q. Did 3tou visit her at Dedham? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did 3*011 know when she went to Tewksbury ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Did you visit her at Tewksbury? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Bowen, at Oak Place when 3*011 visited her, 
did she complain at an3* time that she was afflicted with a 
venereal disease? A. She was sick at the time I went to visit 
her; I don’t know what the matter was with her. The matron 
said she was sick, and wanted some medicine. 
Gov. Butler. Leave out what the matron told 3rou. 1982 
CHAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. Confine yourself to what she said. State 
fully what she said to you. 
The Witness. She didn’t complain of anything, only her 
limbs were swollen. 
Q. What limbs ? A. Her arms. 
. Q. Do you know whether her ankles and legs were swollen ? 
A. I don’t know that they were. 
Q. Was her face swollen? A. I think it was, sir. 
Q. Do you recollect whether her face had blotches on it? 
A. I don’t know. 
Q. Sores of any kind? A. No. 
Q. Did you examine her arms ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did you see? A. Swollen. I think there was a 
red spot on one of her arms. 
Q. Do you recollect which arm it was A. No ; I do not. 
Q. Were her arms bandaged at any time when you saw her? 
A. I don’t recollect as they were. 
Q. Since she left Tewksbury, or after she left Tewksbury, 
do 3’ou recollect whether she went to Dedham again? A. Yes, 
sir. She had the promise of being carried back. She was car- 
ried from that institution, and they told her when she got well 
she should come back. 
Q. Now, after that, did she ever visit your house after she 
left Tewksbury ? A. I think she was there once. 1 was not 
at home. I was in the Provinces. I went to visit a sick 
nephew, and I was not at home. I think she was there once a 
short time. I don’t know how long ; I couldn’t tell you. 
Q. Well, was that after she left Tewksbury? A. I think 
it was. 1 think it was while she was at Grove — 
Gov. Butler. The Consumptives’ Home. 
Q. At Grove Hall? A. Yes, sir; I think so; 1 am not 
sure, but I think so ; I was absent at the time. 
Q. Mrs. Bowen, what was her reputation for truth and 
veracit}’? A. It was bad, sir. 
Q. Was it ever good, within your knowledge? A. No, 
sir ; I don’t think it ever was. * 
Q. Mrs. Bowen, did you ever do an unkind act yourself to 
Eva Bowen, within your knowledge? A. No, sir; I have no 
knowledge of treating her in that way. 
Q. Do you know whether you ever spoke of her unkindly ? 
A. I don’t recollect that 1 eyer did. 
Gov. Butler. The answer was what? 1883.] 
HOUSE5—No. 300 
1983 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t wait for her to answer, because 1 
thought you objected. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; I wanted her to speak louder. 
Mr. Brown. What was the answer to the last question, Mr. 
Reporter ? 
[The stenographer read the question last put, and the answer 
of the witness to it.] 
Q. Did you ever try to influence your husband to disinherit 
her? A. No, sir; never. 
Q. At the time of your husband’s death did you know where 
she was? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did he know where she -was, within 3rour knowledge? 
A. I think that he had a letter from the doctor that she went 
away from the home, Grove Place. 
Q. Grove Hall? A. Grove Hall; as near as I can recol- 
lect, he went to see her on Friday; and Saturday night, when 
they were at prayers, she ran away. 
Q. That is the last information that he received, as you un- 
derstand it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And, so far as 3*011 know, he never heard from her after 
that, did he; or, did he? A. I don’t know that he ever did. 
Mr. Brown. (To Gov. Butler.) Your witness. 
Cross-exaviination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. When did your husband die? A. He died six years 
ago last April, the thirteenth. 
Q. What time in April ? A. The thirteenth. 
Q. The thirteenth of April, that would be in April, 1877, 
wouldn’t it? April, 1877, do you mean? He has been dead 
six years, has he ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That would be in 1877, April, 1877 ; what day of April, 
can you tell me ? A. The thirteenth. 
Q. What day was his will dated? A. I don’t recollect, 
sir. 
Q. Well, about what day? A. Well, I think it was either 
in February or March ; I don’t know which. 
Q. Previous? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is, the last will? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And had he a previous will? A. I think he had, sir; 
but I don’t know for certain. 
Q. Did he ever tell you what was in it? A Never. 1984 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Do you know what was in the last one? A. No, 
sir ; never knew till it was opened after he died. 
Q. Had he one before that, had he two, — did he make 
three? A. I don’t know, sir, for a certainty; I think he had 
a will when we lived in Portland, but I am not certain. 
Q. And he had a will made before the last one, which you 
think was made in March; he died very suddenly, didn’t he ? 
A. Yes, sir ; he died instantly. 
Q. Was Eva your choice or his for adoption? A. It was 
mutual. 
Q. What? A. Mutual; we both agreed. 
Q. You agreed to it at last; but who started it? A. Well, 
I don't know ; I started it as much as my husband ; she was 
recommended by a neighbor of ours to him. 
Q. Down in Portland ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The Portland fire was in 1866 ; how long before that 
was she adopted? A. I can’t tell exactly how long it was, 
but it was while we were in Portland. 
Q. While you were in Portland ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you moved there after the fire? A. Chelsea? 
Q. To Newton? A. To Newton ; yes, sir. 
Q. To Newton after the fire. 
Mr. Brown. She said she lived in Newton before the fire 
took place. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Q. So you were living there. Now, how old was Eva at 
the time she had her child, if you know? A. I think that she 
was sixteen in February, and her child was born in March. 
Q. Sixteen in February? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And she left your house sometime the October previous ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did }’ou bring her up well? A. Well, to the best of 
my knowledge ; I tried every way, — 
Q. I have no doubt. A. In my power. 
Q. You took her to Sunday school? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And to other schools? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And she played with the children in your neighborhood ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And jtou gave her good religious instruction ? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And that, I suppose, continued up to the time she left 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1985 
you? A. Well, she left the Sabbath school; she didn’t go to 
Sabbath school. 
Q. How? A. She didn’t go to Sabbath school for some 
time before. 
Q. About how long? A. Well, I think it was during the 
summer. 
Q. During the summer she quit her Sabbath school? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. There seems to me, from the birth of her child in March 
following, some reason for it. Up to that time she had been 
a faithful attendant upon the Sabbath school. Now, tell me, 
madam, the first person that you ever heard say that her charac- 
ter for truth and veracity was bad. Who was the first person 
you ever heard say that? A. Well, I don’t know as I could 
tell you the first person. 
Q. Well, who was the first person that you remember did 
say so? A. Oh, well, my girls who lived in the house. 
Q. The girls who lived in the house? A. Yes, sir; and I 
knew it myself. 
Q. Leave out what you knew; we will come to that in 
time. Your girls who lived in your house, — and they com- 
plained of her telling lies about them, I suppose? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. What did they complain she lied about? A. I could 
not tell you. 
Q. Can you tell me anything they complained she lied about? 
Who next is the person that 3Tou, — how long ago was that, or 
how old was she ; about three 3Tears old? A. No, sir ; a good 
deal older than that. 
Q. How old was she when that was first told you, that you 
can remember? A. I can’t tell you how old she was. 
Q. Well, about how old? Nine, ten, twelve, fifteen? A. 
When she was nine or ten years old. 
Q. Did you do anything about those tales, — what did you 
do about those tales that they told you ? A. I tried to reason 
with her, and tell her the evil of being so untruthful; tried to 
talk with her. 
Q. Well, now, what did she tell you untruths about, the 
child? A. She would say she went to a place where she never 
went. 
Q. More than once? A. Yes, sir. 1986 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Such a place as what? A. Well, such places as we 
would have iu our church. 
Q. What? A. Places where we met in our church? I 
would send her to the place and she would not go there at all. 
Q. That is to say, you send her to some church gathering 
and she didn’t go? A. No, sir. 
Q. And you found it out and you asked her. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And found out —? A. That she didn’t go. 
Q. That she didn’t go? A. Yes. 
Q. Well, did she go to the Art School. A. She did. 
Q. Did she go to her music lessons ? A. She took music 
lessons. 
Q. And she was a very fine writer? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. A beautiful writer? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And a very accomplished young lady for her age, wasn’t 
she? A. Yes, sir ; very. 
Q. And her father was very fond of her? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. As fond as he would be of his own child, and perhaps a 
little more? A. I don’t know as he was any more fond of her 
than he was of the other children, —the same. 
Well, what other children had he? A. Those children 
that we brought up, sir. 
Not any more fond of her than your nieces? A. No. 
Q. Did you bring up any besides your two nieces? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. lie was fond enough to adopt this one ; he never was 
fond enough to adopt the others, was he? A. No. 
Q. He made this one his heir by adoption ; he never made 
any of your people heirs to anything, did lie? A. He willed 
it in his will. 
Q. Till he made his last will, yes ; very well. Now, about 
that will; when did you hear Mr. Bowen first speak unkindly of 
Eva, if he ever did. A. Well, sir, when he tried to correct 
her at one time. 
Q. When was that? A. Well, that was when she was,— 
1 don’t think she was over eight }rears old. 
Q. He spoke unkindly of her in attempting to correct her? 
A. Yes. 
Q. But he loved her after that, because he gave her all these 
privileges? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did he ever speak unkindly of her? What I mean 
is, to show that he had lost his love for her, so that he would 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
1987 
be willing to poison her, for instance? A. I don’t think he 
ever did, sir. 
Q. He never did. Did he ever speak unkindly of her, be- 
cause we can’t tell what would be the elfect of unkind thoughts? 
A. Well, he said he didn’t know what he should do with her, 
she was so high tempered. 
Q. So high tempered? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So high tempered he didn’t know what he should with 
her? A. And she was disobedient. 
Q. Doesn’t it often happen, after all, that a disobedient 
child is apt to be loved almost as much as an obedient one? 
Did this disobedience change his mind toward her so he came 
to dislike her? A. No, sir; I don’t think it did. 
Q. He always used to speak of her with tears in his eyes, 
didn’t he; of her troubles? A. He always spoke of her very 
kindly. 
Q. Down to the very last? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he die in church? A. He did, sir. 
Q. He was speaking of prodigal children, wasn’t he, at that 
time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And with tears in his eyes? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did you first learn that he had disinherited her, or 
thought of it.- A. Well, 1 think there was a detective came to 
our house sometime during the winter before he died and told 
him that he had come to tell him where she was. 
Q. Then he did know ; 1 thought I should get that. He did 
tell him? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What time dining the winter was that? A. Well, I 
could not tell 3 011. 
Q. Were you present? A. No, sir; I didn’t know who 
came to the door; he rang the bell; I knew nothing about it. 
Q. I understand ; after he came to the door and rang the 
bell, were you then present? A. He didn’t come in, the detec- 
tive didn’t. 
Q. Didn’t come in? A. When my husband came in he 
told me. 
Q. Did your husband go to the door? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do 37ou know who the detective was? A. I do not. 
Q. A detective came there and told your husband some- 
thing. What, I don’t ask; didn’t he tell you anything? A. 
The detective ? 
Q. Yes. A. I didn’t see him, sir. 1988 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Didn’t see him? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you know your husband had a detective out? A. 
No, sir; hadn’t any? 
Q. Hadn’t any? A. No, sir; he was sent by a party. 
Q. What? A. He was sent; some one sent him. 
Q. Some one sent the detective? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know who that one was? A. No, sir. 
Q. It was not that old woman we had here testifying the 
other day, was it? A. No, sir; I think not. 
Q. Don’t know who it was at all? A. No, sir; 1 know 
what my husband told me that he told him ; that I know. 
Q. But you don’t know anything except what he said? 
A. No. 
Q. Did your husband then say he would disinherit her. A. 
He told me he never wanted to see her or hear from her again. 
Q. Never wanted to see her or hear from her again? 
A. Yes, sir ; that is what he told me when he came in. 
Q. What he told you? A. Yes. 
Q. That he never wanted to see her or hear from her again ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did your husband ever tell you who the father of this 
child was? A. My husband? 
Q. Yes. A. The child’s uncle came down to our house at 
the time in Portland. 
Q. No, I don’t mean that; I mean the subsequent genera- 
tion ; this child of Eva’s? A. Oh, this child of Eva’s. 
Q. Yes. A. I don’t think my husband knew. 
Q. I don’t suppose he did, certainly ; but didn’t he go to see 
somebody about it? A. Eva told us the father of the child 
lived in South Boston. 
Q. 1 don’t ask you what Eva told you ; I ask you whether 
you went,—your husband went to see a man? A. He went. 
Q. He went? A. Where she said, and there was no such 
man there. 
Q. You have got it in, I see, but it don’t do any harm. Did 
your husband ever tell you whether he did see a man wdiom he 
supposed was the father of the child? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never did? A. No, sir. 
Q. He was not as confidential with you, then, as he was 
with this missionary woman in Chelsea? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Didn’t this missionary woman tell you about it? A. 
She did since I came up here. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1989 
Q. She did since you came up here? A. Yes. 
Q. Did she tell you the name ? I don’t ask what it was this 
moment, but did she tell you the name? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. She did not? A No, sir; she did not. 
Q. Tell you wiry she didn’t? A. I don’t think she knew 
his name. 
Q. Did she say your husband told her what the name was? 
A. I think not. 
Q. Did she say he did not or did, which? A. I don’t 
know. 
Q. You don’t know. Didn’t your husband tell you it was a 
man of influence and standing? A. No, sir; my husband 
never told me. 
Q. Never said anything on that subject? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did your husband ever say anything about this man hav- 
ing influence over her? A. The man that wrote him where she 
was, the house he found her? 
Q. No ! oh, no ; not that man. A. That is all the man I 
know anything about. 
Q. Well, but pardon me, did your husband ever tell you 
who he supposed, and had been informed, was the father of this 
child of this daughter’s? A. Never. 
Q. Never? A. No. 
Q. Never told you anything about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never told you he had seen a man who he supposed was 
the father of this child? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never told you that? A. No. 
Q. Did you know that he told that woman of that; did she 
ever tell you till you came up here? A. I don’t think she ever 
did, sir ; for I never had any conversation with any one. 
Q. Oh, well, but didn’t you have any conversation with her? 
A. Not on that subject. 
Q. Not on that subject? A. No. 
Q. She has testified here she was employed as a sort of 
detective to go and hunt up this child and find it, and she did go 
and find it in a certain place. Now, you have told us that you 
have found it, because a law student in Cambridge wrote where 
she was ; that was so, wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And where was that, what street was it on that the law 
student said the child was? A. I could not tell. 
Q. What? A. I don’t know. 1990 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Don’t know? A. No. 
Q. Well, her father never talked with you much about her, 
then, after she went away? A. Yes; he did talk with me 
about her. 
Q. What? A. Same as any other parent would. 
Q. I don’t know ; I should suppose that if the father had 
found out who the father of an illegitimate child of his daugh- 
ter was, any other parent would have been likely to have talked 
to the mother about it, not to women out in the street. A. 
Well; he never did. 
Q. Unless there was more than usual intimacy between 
them. How soon after that did he make the will, — when this 
man came to the door, this detective that he didn’t employ, 
whom somebody sent to him, — how soon after that did he make 
his will? A. I don’t know, sir; I could not tell }rou, I am 
sure. 
Q. Where was the will made? A. In Boston. 
Q. Who witnessed it? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Have you got a copy ? A. Yes. 
Q. What? A. I have. 
Q. Here? A. No, sir. 
Q. Where is it? A. It is in Maine. 
Q. In Maine? A. At home. 
Q. I suppose you know who the property was left to, don’t 
jmu? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Left to you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The whole of it? A. All excepting what was willed to 
different individuals. 
Q. All except what was willed to different individuals ; Eva 
was cut off with $25, wasn’t she? A. That was what he 
willed her. 
Q. Willed her $25 ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Yes; and he willed how much to one of your nieces? 
A. One, $50. 
Q. What? A. One was willed $50. 
Q. Willed $50. A. And the other one thousand. 
Q. One fifty and one one thousand ; anybody else willed to? 
A. I think not, sir. 
Q. And all the rest went to you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In the meantime you never had had a word of conversa- 
tion about that will? A, Not a word, sir; never. HOUSE —No. 300. 
1883. 
1991 
Q. Nor any other will? A. No, sir; nor about any other 
will. 
Q. Here he had a wife of forty-nine years’ standing, — not 
quite that time ; three or four years’ standing, — and he had no 
children at all; he had one disobedient one that he loved very 
much, and died, with tears in his eyes, speaking about prodigal 
children ; and he never spoke to you of her at all in relation to 
the will? A. No, sir; never mentioned. 
Q. Never in the world? A. No, sir ; nor I to him. 
Q. Nor you to him? A. Never. 
Q. There wasn’t confidence enough between you so that 3-011 
ever spoke together upon that sort of subject? A. 1 never 
mentioned the will. 
Q. But, luckily for you, he cut her off with $25. Did you 
ever send to her? A. Did what, sir? 
Q. Did you ever send to her? A. What was willed to 
her? 
Q. Did you ever send an3'thing to her? A. Oh, 3*es, sir; 
I sent her things when she was in the home. 
Q. After she left the Oak Street Home, did 3-ou ever send 
her any comfort whatever of any description? A. No, sir ; 1 
never did. 
Q. Never did? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever send her any note while she was at Tewks- 
bury? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did 3-011 ever write to her anywhere? A. I did not. 
Q. Did 37ou write to anybody about her? A. I did not. 
Q. Did 3-011 take an3T care or interest in her, whether she 
was alive or dead, after she was at Oak Street? A. I did, 
sir. 
Q. What? A. I did. 
Q. What? A. And my husband cared for her. 
Q. Your husband, I know; he cared for her and done for 
her ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And did for her at last b3r taking away all the property 
and giving it to you ; but did 3-011 do anything, and, if so, tell 
me what you did? A. Well, she was given up, sir; she was 
given up. When she was at — 
Q. When she was at Oak Street? A. When she went 
from there. 
Q. When she went from there she was given up? A. Yes, 
sir. 1992 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Let us see about that; then, she was given up by both 
father and mother ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You sure about that, are you? A. I think so. 
Q. Don’t you know? A. I know. 
Q. Here is a loved child, you were grieved about her 
troubles; don’t you know when you gave her up? A. I cer- 
tainly do. 
Q. When did you give her up? A. I gave her up when 
she went to Dedham. 
Q. When she went to Dedham? A. She was going to 
Lancaster, but they objected on account of her child. 
Q. Well, after the time she left Oak Street was the time 
you went and complained of her as a disobedient child ; you 
hadn’t given her up then, had you ; if you claimed authority over 
her, you were going to testify? A. After she was given up? 
Q. When she was given up. A. She was given up, sir, 
at that time. 
Q. Given up to what? AVhat do you mean by given up? 
A. The authorities ; the}T had authority to send her where 
they sent her. 
Q. I know they had authority, — no, they didn’t; but we 
won’t go into that question of law. She was sent to Dedham, 
but they had no more right to send her there than they had to 
heaven, and we can’t find, — what judge was it that went 
through this performance? You must know. A. I do not 
know. 
Q. Where was it? A. It was in a court-room; I can’t 
tell }tou what street. 
Q. Where was the court-room? A. That I can’t say. 
Q. How big was the court-room? Wa’n’t it an office? A. 
I don’t know. 
Q. Don’t you know whether it was in an office or not? A. 
It might have been a police office ; I can’t sa}\ 
Q. Might have been a police office for all I know ; what 
made you say it was in a court-room? A. The judge was 
there. 
Q. How do you know it was a judge? A. I supposed he 
was. 
Q. You supposed he was a judge? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But he was in somebody’s office ; and did he make an 
order sending her to Dedham? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. ' You don’t know ? A. No. 1883 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1993 
Q. You were there, weren’t you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know whether he made any order sending her 
to Dedham; at any rate, she was sent to Dedham? Now, by 
giving up, do you mean the father gave her up? A. He did, I 
suppose ; I suppose he did. 
Q. He did? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then you had no more care of her from that time, did 
you? A. No, sir. 
Q. SJie might go to the bad, for all you, or to the good, for 
all }Tou, after that? A. I think she went to the bad. 
Q. Undoubtedly ; you say she went to the bad ; I have uo 
doubt of that. 1 am only trying whether you sent her to the 
bad ; that is what I am after, — this loving mother of hers. A. 
I never sent her to anything that was bad. 
Q. Pardon me; you let her go to the bad, didn’t you ; you 
gave her up? A. 1 gave her up to those that I thought, per- 
haps, might be the means of reforming her. 
Q. You gave her up ; from that hour did you ever send any- 
thing to her? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever go to see her? A. I never did, sir. 
Q. Did you ever make any inquiry of any authority about 
her? A. I did, sir. 
Q. Who? A. My husband. 
Q. Leaving out your husband ; ever inquire of anybody 
else? A. No, sir. 
Q. How long after that did she go to Tewksbury? A. I 
don’t recollect, because I was away from home when she was 
carried there. 
Q. Where were you? A. I was in the Provinces. 
Q. That is what you call home? A. Down in the Prov- 
inces? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir; T wras in the city of Woodstock, 
New Brunswick. 
Q. How long were you there? A. 1 tvas there some six 
weeks. 
Q. Well, there was a good deal of time between these six 
weeks, from some time in July, 1876, up to the time before 
your husband died, and since ; have you ever, from that time,— 
leave out your husband, —made a single inquiry about Eva up 
to the dav. up to the time you were sent for to come here,— up 
to the time she appeared on the stand, and, if so, of whom? 1994 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
A. No, sir ; I don’t think I made any inquiry after she ran 
away. 
Q. In Boston? A. Yes. 
Q. Pardon me ; she didn’t run away the last time she went; 
she ran away and was caught and brought back and put in the 
Oak Street Home, and taken from there and sent to Dedham. 
Now, madam, tell me whether you gave any notice to her of her 
father’s death? A. No, sir; I did not. 
Q. Did not? A. No, sir; 1 didn’t know where §he was; 
nothing about her. 
Q. Who did you inquire of? A. Didn’t know who to 
inquire of. 
Q. You didn’t make an}’ inquiry whatever? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, did you give any notice of the will to her, of the 
provisions of the will? A. I did not. 
Q. Mak§ any inquiry where she was to give her that 
notice? A. No, sir; I made no inquiry ; didn’t know who to 
inquire of. 
Q. Didn’t know who to inquire of? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, madam, don’t you know that her father furnished 
her with comforts while she was at Dedham and Tewksbury? 
A. He did. 
Q. What? A. I knew he sent her things. 
Q. At Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. You stopped at Oak Street? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, T am talking about Tewksbury ; did you send her 
anything at Tewksbury ? A. No, sir. 
Q. You have told us that over and over again ; but now, 
don’t you know that the father sent her things? A. At Tewks- 
bury ? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. Sent her money; didn’t he ever tell you he did? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know he sent her things at Dedham? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. You knew that? A. Yes. 
Q. Money ? A. T don’t know he did. 
Q. You knew he sent her something? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know he got her put into the Consumptives’ 
Home? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he had care of her up to that time. Now, madam, 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1995 
didn’t he pay her board at Dedham, or pay her expenses? A. 
I do not know. 
Q. Didn’t he tell yon he did? A. I don’t recollect it. 
Q. Don’t know whether he did or not; did he at Tewksburj'? 
A. I think not. 
Q. What makes you think not; do you know? A. I don’t 
know. 
Q. Don’t know? A. No. 
Q. Then he put her in the Consumptives’ Home. Now, 
wasn’t he speaking of Eva at the time he died, when he was 
speaking of the prodigal son, — with reference to her? A. I 
do not know, sir. 
Q. Didn’t you so understand? A. I never understood it. 
Q. What? A. I never understood it so. 
Q. Well, what did he refer to, speaking in the church of the 
parable of the prodigal son, and falling down? A. Well, I 
should think that was the subject for the evening ; and I think 
each one spoke upon it, sir. 
Q. And he fell with the words in his mouth, did he? Now, 
madam, leave out your girls and the father, tell me when }rou 
ever told anybody, before Eva came on to the stand, that she 
was a girl wanting in truth and veracity? A. I don’t know as 
I understand you. 
Q. You have sworn that her character is bad for truth and 
veracity ; who did you ever tell that before Eva went on the 
stand here, — leaving out your girls, that you have told me 
about, and the father, if you told him, — leave these three out, 
to whom did you ever say, Eva is a girl wanting in truth and 
veracity, in any form of words? A. I don’t know as I can 
tell any one I told it to particularly. 
Q. Can you tell me any one in general? A. No; I don’t 
know as I can. 
Q. Did you ever say it to anybody, living or dead, leaving 
out these girls and the father? A. I can’t remember. 
Q. That you ever did? A. No, sir; that I ever did. 
Q. You have already sworn here you never said an unkind 
word about her, and that would have bedn pretty unkind, to 
have said of her, wouldn’t it, to strangers, that she was a lying 
girl? Whoever, within the last live years of her life, ever said 
to you, leaving out your hired girls, that she was a girl whose 
character for truth and veracity was bad,— the last five years 1996 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
of her life, before she left? A. Well, I don’t know as l can 
tell you of any one in particular. 
Q. Tell me of any one in general? A. I can’t. 
Q. Then, you can’t in general or in particular ? A. No. 
Q. Did this girl join the church? A. Mary? 
Q. Yes. A. No. 
Q. Did not? A. No. 
Q. She was treated in the family like one of the family, sent 
to Sunday school like other children, and sent for all these ac- 
complishments, when you knew she was a confirmed, intracta- 
ble liar, —do you say so? A. Yes, sir; I could not take her 
word for anything. 
Q. I understand ; you knew she was a confirmed liar all the 
time, and, yet, you gave her all these accomplishments, and 
sent her to the art school to associate with young ladies there, 
paid large prices for her tuition, — that was so, was it? A. 
Yes. sir. 
Q. And from that hour to this, the time of this investiga- 
tion, you never have breathed to mortal man or woman the sus- 
picion that she didn’t tell the truth, on your oath, have you, as 
you have just told me. Now, who came to you and asked you 
to come here and swear about this poor girl, whose fortune you 
have got, that she would not tell the truth ? Who came to you 
with that story ? A. Who came to me ? 
Q. Yes; who first asked you about her truth and veracity? 
A. [Turning to Mr. Brown.] I think you asked me, Mr. 
Brown. 
Q. Was he the first person ? A. Yes. 
Q. And when was that; when was that? A. Last Thurs- 
day, I think. 
Q. When? A. Last Thursday, or Wednesday. 
Q. Last Thursday ? A. Last Wednesday. 
Q. Very well, Wednesday be it; did you know anything 
about coming up here to testify she was a lying girl till last 
Thursday? A. 1 saw by the papers what she had testified 
here on the stand, which I knew was false. 
Q. Now, then, that is just what I want, thank you. What 
was it she testified on the stand that you know was false? A. 
That I influenced her father to poison her. 
Q. Pardon me ; she didn’t testify to any such thing. A. 
It was so in the paper. 
Q. It shows it won’t do to believe the papers. Then you 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1997 
made up jour mind she was a lying girl, didn’t 3*011? A. No, 
sir; I made it up a great while before. 
Q. But 3*011 never mentioned it to anybody*. Now, then, 
did you speak to anybody about it,—3*011 have told me the 
first person you did it to was Mr. Brown, and he asked 3*011. Did 
3*011 know 3*ou were to come up here to testify that her character 
was bad, — of course you were going to testify 3*011 never influ- 
enced her father to kill her, — but did 3*011 expect to come up 
here to testify* to anything else? A. I think she testified 
enough on the stand here to condemn herself, any ways. 
Q. 1 have no doubt she did. A. That, I think, is pub- 
licly known. 
Q. I think that is publicly known ; all right, I understand 
that, thoroughly. But, now, I want to know what 3*011 know,— 
not what she knew, nor what your opinion is of what she testi- 
fied,— did you know that you were to come up here to testily 
to her character for truth, not what lies she told about you, till 
you got here and talked with Mr. Brown? [Witness paused.] 
Well, we are pretty well advanced in 3*ears, both of us, don’t 
wait much longer. A. No, sir. 
Q. Did not? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now*, madam, here was a fifteen-3*ear-old girl, who had 
been well brought up, thoroughly accomplished, somebod3* had 
led her away* from her father’s house, and she was sick, con- 
fined with child, and she was taken from that place to Dedham, 
and from that hour, you, a Christian woman and her mother, 
never took any step to bring her back or reform her, but did, 
in a year or two, succeed to a large, very large property by* will. 
A. That is a very* great mistake, sir ; not a very large prop- 
erty. 
Q. How many thousand? A. Well, sir, I don’t think 
there was more than $6,000. 
Q. Eva hasn’t had much of it, lately, on your statement? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. I am aware that it don’t appear anymore than that,— 
that will be looked up, by and by; about the United States 
bonds that are not accounted for; that is to come hereafter. 
Now, then, little or much, $6,000 if you. please, which you got, 
you never took any pains, yourself, to try and reclaim that 
beautiful, well-educated child, who was led away while she was 
a Sunday-school scholar; that you swear here in the presence 
of this committee, do you, you a Christian woman, a member of 1998 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the church,— you so testify, do you? A. Well, sir, I think 
it would have been thrown away, whatever I did. 
Q. It would have been thrown away? A. Yes, sir; she 
chose to take that company, that was her disposition, and no- 
body could have reformed her. 
Q. That was her disposition ? A. Yes. 
Q. And, at rate, in your own expressive language, you 
gave her up? A. I did, sir. 
Q. And the only service you have done her is to come vol- 
untarily all the way up from Maine to swear her character 
down, and blast her as much as yrou can; is that it? A. I 
wish her no harm, sir. 
Q. What? A. I don’t wish her any7 harm. 
Q. Yet, you came voluntarily up here from Maine to swear 
against her. Who went down after you? A. No one came 
after me, sir. 
Q. What? A. No one came after me. 
Q. Who went down to see y?ou there, anybody? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Who did you first see when you got here? A. Mr. Sar- 
gent. 
Q. Did you see him before? A. No, sir ; never. 
Q. Then you came upon telegraph, did you, or letter, which? 
A. Letter. 
Gov. Butler. Came by letter. Then it was entirely volun- 
tary, there wasn’t even a shadow of process; you, the mother 
of the girl, come up here to do what you can to blast her repu- 
tation forever. That is all, madam. 
Testimony of David Blair (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Broion. 
Q. What is your full name? A. David Blair. 
Q. Where do you live? A. Lawrence, Massachusetts. 
Q, How long have you lived in Lawrence? A. About ten 
years ; about that; I can’t say exactly. 
Q. What is your business? A. I am in the milk busiuess. 
Q. Carrying on business for yourself? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long have you been engaged in that business? A. 
Four or five years ; five years, I guess. 
Q. Were you ever employed at Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When? A. Well, I don’t know as 1 can give you the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
1999 
exact date; I think it was in 1876 I went there; in August, 
1876, I think, or July. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) July, 1876? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) How long were you there? A. 
About two years, I think, I stayed there, till within a month or 
so; I think I left in the spring, two years, any wa}r, about two 
years. 
Q. And what business were you engaged in at Tewksbury? 
A. In the cook business. 
Q. What? A. In the cooking department. 
Q. That is, for the almshouse? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Cooking the food for the inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, were you in that employment there at 
Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir; all the time while I was there. 
Q. During the time you were there did you ever hear any 
complaints of lack of food, sufficient food? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you have an opportunity of talking with the in- 
mates, and did you talk with them with regard to the food ? A. 
Well, I was right in amongst them ; they came in, — I had 
charge of the hall when they came in to eat their meals, and if 
there had been any complaints I think I should have heard 
them. I did not hear any complaint from them. 
Q. Now, did you have any extras served at any time during 
the period of your employment there, and, if so, tell what they' 
were and on what occasions? A. Holidays we always had 
something extra. 
Q. Was Thanksgiving one of them? A. I will take that 
back ; I think on Thanksgiving we did not have anything extra, 
but Fast Day and Christmas and New Year’s, — I believe 
Thanksgiving was notan extra,—but Christmas, New Year’s 
and Fast Day, or else we had Thanksgiving and not Fast Day ; 
there was one of the two. 
Q. One you don’t recollect? A. Yes, sir. 
Q.. Now, state what extras were served? A. On holidays 
we used to have cold roast pork, — the pork was killed on the 
place, — and we roasted it two or three days beforehand, a 
thousand pounds of pork, and cut it up cold in slices for their 
dinner. 
Q. What else? A. Potatoes and bread. 
Q. What else? A. Potatoes, bread, and, according to 
how they' was off for vegetables, turnips, beets, if they had any 
left over, as long as they lasted. 2000 
CHAIILTABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. That is, it would depend on the time of the year when 
the holiday was? A. Yes, sir. At other times we had cold 
boiled ham, — I can’t tell how many, had them ready, for some 
holiday pork and ham I believe. 
Q. Now, about the vegetables? A. Well, in the season of 
vegetables we had beets, potatoes — had potatoes all the time, 
— turnips, cucumbers, beans, tomatoes, green corn, watermelon, 
— they come under the head of vegetables? muskmelons, while 
they lasted; cabbage. 
Q. Who was the baker? A. Mr. Barrett was baker when 
I was there. 
Q. Did you eat the same food the inmates eat? A. Not as 
a general thing; I have eat it, when I didn’t want to go to 
the superintendent’s kitchen, often. 
Q. Did you dine with the officers? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, how frequently did you have occasion, finding 
that you hadn’t time, or for any other reason, to go to the offi- 
cers’ table, to dine with the inmates? 
Gov. Butler. No ; he has not said he dined with the 
inmates at all. 
Mr. Brown. I ask him. 
A. Very frequently ; I can’t say how often ; sometimes a week 
at a time I would get dinner in the kitchen where 1 was my- 
self, in preference to going in to the captain’s table ; and I gen- 
erally went in for breakfast and tea, and very often, not all the 
time, sometimes, went in to the captain’s kitchen ; quite often, 
and then 1 quite often eat without going in there. 
Q. Now, did they use to skim the milk when you were there? 
A. No, sir ; it never was done, not while I was in the institu- 
tion. 
Q. Did the inmates have milk furnished them, and, if so, to 
what extent? A. The inmates had milk in their tea and coffee, 
that is in the hall; the well would come to the hall, and they 
had milk in their tea and coffee ; and in the different wards 
around the institution the milk was sent out. They would come 
in, each department would come in after their own rations; 
they would send the matron who had charge, with the help, and 
come down and carry it up, — so many bowls of milk, so many 
bowls of gruel, just as it was ordered by the physician. 
Q. How frequently, within your knowledge, did Capt. Marsh 
visit the different departments of the institution? A. Well, in 
my department I don’t think there was ever three days, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2001 
altogether, but what Capt. Marsh was there two or three times 
a day, probably; he had some business, going through there to 
see. 
Q. Did he come in regularly at stated hours? A. No, sir ; 
he used, generally, to come there in the morning before he went 
away, as he was going to Boston, and as he would come through 
the gale coming back he would come through the kitchen, come 
up that way. 
Q. Did you ever see any act of violence there at the insti- 
tution? A. No ; no, sir ; I did not see any acts of violence. 
Q. Do you recollect any occurrence when they had occasion 
to use force upon any person there? A. I have seen once or 
twice where they was taking an insane person to the crazy 
house, — a girl; I don’t know who she was nor what her name 
was ; but 1 know there was one time in particular French Joe 
and somebody else was taking an insane woman to the crazy 
house and she hollered, — whether they were hurting her or not 
1 don’t know, — but I know Captain Marsh made them let her 
go, and she walked there with him herself; and he talked to 
them and told them they must not be rough with her, or some- 
thing that way. That is shortly after I went there. 
Q. Well, did that occur more than once while you were 
there, within your knowledge? A. No, sir; nothing of that 
kind didn’t, not as I know of. 
Q. Well, did you ever have occasion to know in regard to 
any instructions which the officers of the institution had in the 
management of the people there? A. Well, I only know in 
my own case, I suppose, — I don’t know whether they all got 
the same instructions or not. 
Q. Well, what did you have? A. When I went to work 
there 1 was instructed not to use any, — not to be rough or use 
any harsh means at all ; to use them kind. 
Q. Did you ever hear that instruction given to anybody 
else? A. No, sir ; I can’t say as I did. 
Q. Did you know whether there was any place for the con- 
finement of persons who were disposed to be stubborn, in that 
institution, while you were there? A. Well, I believe there 
was one when I first went there, but my impression is they done 
away with it. 
Q. Bo you recollect whether there was a place where they 
used to confine persons who had delirium tremens? A. Tes, 
sir. 2002 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, with the exception of that place of confinement, 
was there any other? A. Not that I knew of. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Dudley? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How frequently did you see him while lie was at the in- 
stitution ? A. I used to see him every afternoon after he 
got up. 
Q. Where did you see him? A. 1 saw him on the grounds 
and in the yard around. 
Q. Did he used to come in and talk with you occasionally? 
A. Well, yes ; he used to talk some. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Barker? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you see him frequently? A. Yes, sir; very often. 
Q. Did you use to see him and talk with him? A. Yes, 
sir; I talked with him ; more so with him than with any other 
officer there. 
Q. You have been over to the insane department? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Did you know what the bathing apparatus was while 
Barker and Dudley were there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never examined it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear from Mr. Barker, or from Mr. Dudley, 
any complaint of acts of cruelty committed upon patients in the 
insane hospital while they were there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never heard them in conversation with anybody about 
it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did they ever complain to you, in airy form of words, 
that they were not properly supplied with water or bathing 
apparatus? A. No, sir. 
Q. I believe you have been visited by Mr. Innis, have you 
not? A. No, sir ; I guess not. 
Q. Who was it that visited you? A. I don’t know who it 
was. 
Q. What sort of a looking man was it? A. I don’t know 
as I could describe him ; he belongs in Lowell, I have heard 
since. Doctor somebody. A stoutish man, I think, with gray 
whiskers. 
Q. To get you to come here as a witness? A. No, sir; 
they didn’t ask me to come ; they got to talking about Tewks- 
bury. I didn’t know who he was, and didn’t know that he was 
from Tewksbury, and don’t know as he is now, only what 1 was 
to’d when he went out. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2003 
Q. You are Mr. David Blair, are you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. There were five cooks when you were there, weren’t 
there ? David A. Gorham, cook ; Mary E. Gorham, cook — 
A. No, sir ; they were before my time. 
Q. What? A. They had left. 
Q. Sure? A. Yes, sir. I had Mr. Gorham’s place. 
Q. Let me see, sir; Mr. Blair and Mr. Sedgwick, cook. 
You went there in 187(1 and remained there two years? A. 
Yes, sir ; it might have been about that — 
Q. Stop a moment; I have the auditor’s report here. A. 
T can’t help that, sir. 
Q. Well, all right; just as well. Here T find in 1877, which 
would be the report for 1876, there were David A. Gorham, 
cook; Mary E. Gorham, cook, — did you ever hear of them? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They were there before? A. I had Mr. Gorham’s place ; 
Gorham’s wife, I believe, was in the hospital kitchen. 
Q. Then she was still there as cook? A. No, sir. 
Q. J. E. Pope, cook. A. That was in the captain’s 
kitchen. 
Q. And then there was David Blair, cook ; that was you ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then there was J. S. Sedgwick, cook, A. I don’t 
know of him ; I never heard of him. 
Q. You were not there but a little time, and your business 
was simply cooking? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You were hired for that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What experience had you in cooking. A. Well, not a 
great deal; but I had some, — not a great deal. 
Q. Where did you live? A. I lived in Lawrence when I 
went to work there. 
Q. What did you do in Lawrence? A. What did 1 do in 
Lawrence before I went to work there? I had been working for 
the Boston & Maine Railroad. 
Q. What did you do in Lawrence? A. Before I went to 
Tewksbury? I worked for the Boston & Maine Railroad. 
Q. Not cooking? A. No, sir. 
Q. How many years did you work at that? A. I worked 
at that while I was in Lawrence ; from the time I came to Law- 
rence until l went to Tewksbury, within two or three weeks. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 2004 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. How long? A. I don’t know; two years; between 
three and four years. 
Q. Where did you work before that? A. I worked in New 
York. 
Q. What? A. New York city. 
Q. When; just before? A. Before 1 come to Massachu- 
setts, I did ; yes, sir. 
Q. Before you came to Massachusetts you worked in New 
York city? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did you do there? A. I worked for my brother 
in an eating saloon. 
Q. What? A. An eating saloon. 
Q. What did you do then? A. J helped in the kitchen, 
and some all around. 
Q. About what is your age, sir? A. M3’ age is thirty-nine 
years. 
Q. And you went there at how much a month? A. I went 
there, I think, the first month at twenty-five dollars. 
Q. And raised afterward? A. Yes, I was raised five dol- 
lars. 
Q. Were you hired to do anything else but cook? A. 
Well, I had all to do in the kitchen ; I had help there to do it. 
1 had charge of that kitchen and the hall where the men ate. 
Q. You had no charge of the men? A. Nothing morei 
than coming in to their meals and going out. 
Q. Well, I suppose there you are only to see that they are 
fed? A. This is it, sir. 
Q. But you were carefully instructed to do that cooking 
kindly, and not to use any force? A. Well, there is some- 
times, — there is a good man}7 comes into that hall to eat, and 
\Tou can be kind or rough, one or the other. 
Q. 1 understand ; but what was there about it that required 
that you should be instructed? Had there been an}7 trouble 
that somebody hadn’t been kind, and so they wanted you to be? 
A. I don’t know, sir, what it was for. 
Q. But you were told to be kind particularly in the hall and 
in the cooking? A. No, they didn’t say in the hail or cook- 
ing, but they said be kind to them; that is what it meant. I 
cannot say exactly the words, but that is what it meant. I had 
my instructions. 
Q. Now did you know that they carried away people to be 
dissected there? A- No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2005 
Q. Did you hear of it while you were there? A. Well, I 
guess I did. 
Q. Guess you did ; don’t you know whether you did? A. 
I heard some talk about it on the grounds, among the inmates, 
that is all. 
Q. The inmates knew about it and talked about it? A. I 
suppose they did ; yes, sir. 
Q. And pretty generally? A. Oh, no; no, sir, I could 
not say that. 
Q. Considerably? A. No, I can’t say considerably, either ; 
two or three times ; I don’t know as I have heard it oftener 
than that. 
Q. Don’t know but you have heard it oftener? A. Don’t 
know as I have. 
Q. The inmates were talking among themselves or were 
talking to you? A. Yes, they were talking among themselves, 
and 1 used to walk about the yard where they were. 
Q. And they were talking about it? A. I have heard 
them talking about it. 
Q. Two or three times? A Two or three times. 
Q. The}7 rather liked it, didn’t they ? A. I don’t know. 
Q. How did the}’express themselves? A. That I cannot 
tell. 
Q. Did they express themselves about it as a thing they 
liked or disliked? A. I cannot tell you how they did express 
themselves. 
Q. Can you remember? A. No, sir; I cannot remember 
exactly what they said. I knew they were talking about it, 
but I cannot repeat the words. 
Q. I don’t ask exactly what was said. When T hear people 
talking I can generally tell without hearing what they are say- 
ing whether they like a thing or not. Can’t you tell us whether 
they were pleased with it? A. No, I cannot. 
Q. Nor whether they were displeased? A. No, sir. 
Q. And you never said a word about it yourself? A. No, 
sir ; 1 never did. 
Q. You didn’t believe it, I suppose? A. Well, I don’t 
know whether I did or not. It was none of my business. 
Q. 1 understand. A great many things you had a belief 
about were none of your business, I suppose. Now, did you 
make any inquiries? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never asked about it? A. No, sir, 2006 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Why not? It was a curious thing, was it not, to you? 
You had never had any experience of that kind, even in a New 
York eating-saloon? A. No, sir. 
Q. It was a curious matter, was it not; and you never spoke 
to anybody about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did anybody ever speak to you? A. No, sir. 
Q. Will you swear that Mr. Dudley didn’t speak about it? 
A. Y”es, sir ; I will. 
Q. Or Mr. Barker? A. Yres. sir. 
Q. Why do you swear that? A. Because I know they 
never did. 
Q. Why? A. Because I know nobody ever did. 
Q. Did you ever speak to anybody? A. No; not about 
bodies. 
Q. Never about “ transportation ? ” That is what they call 
it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, did you ever attend a funeral while }’ou were there? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. And did you ever see one? A. I saw the funeral of an 
officer, but I didn’t hear that his body was carried off. 
Q Ever see the funeral of one of the inmates? A. Not 
outside of that; no, sir. 
Q. Ever hear a funeral sermon preached, or funeral cere- 
monies, except that one? A. No, sir. 
Q. Ever in the grave-yard? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did 3rou know Mr. Manning? A. No, sir; I had seen 
him. 
Q. You had seen him, but not to be intimate with him? A. 
I knew him when I saw him. 
Q. You had seen his cart? A. That I cannot say. I don’t 
know that I ever saw his cart; no, sir. 
Q. Well, his wagon? A. No, sir ; I don’t remember that. 
Q. Well, but you used to see him about there? A. No ; I 
have seen Mr. Manning as I came by his place to the depot. 
Q. Didn’t you hear that he had a man employed in carting 
them off? A. I did ; yes, sir. 
Q. You did? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Didn’t you have any curiosity to look at the cart? A. 
I didn’t see an}r eart. 
Q. Well, a wagon? A. If I had seen it, probably I should. 
If had seen him with a wagon — but I never did. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2007 
Q. You never saw him with a cart or wagon? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Now, are you sure? This was in 1876. Now, did you 
ever see the pond where they bathed? A. In the insane 
building? 
Q. Anywhere ? A. Well, I suppose I have seen it there. 
I don’t know what you mean by the pond. But where they have 
bathed the insane, I have seen it. 
Q. That is what they call it? A. Yes, sir; I have seen 
it. 
Q. Ever seen them bathe there? A. Yes, I have been 
going through when I have had some business with Mr. Dudley. 
I would be going through, and they would be bathing, or getting 
ready. 
Q. Ever see two persons in that pond, or more? A. I 
don’t know that I ever saw any one in that pond, — 1 don’t 
think I did. 
Q.. Did you ever bathe there yourself? A. No, sir. 
Q. Where did you bathe, if anywhere? A. I bathed down 
in what they call the bath-room, in the other side of the yard. 
Q. In the officers’ bath-tub, I suppose? A. I don’t know 
as there is any one particular!}' for the officers ; there are three 
or four there. 
Q. You didn’t find that out. Now, you never heard that 
anybody got hurt? A. No, sir. 
Q. Nobody hurt; nobody got confined in any way? A. I 
have known people to take them and shut them up in the cells, 
—men with delirium tremens, or something of that sort. 
Q. Let us see if I understand you. Would they put a man 
with delirium tremens into a cell? A. I don’t know as they 
called it a cell; but if they called it a cell, that is what I under- 
stand. 
Q. Very well; they would put them in a cell, with delirium 
tremens. Well, in any other case, now, did you ever hear of 
anybody being confined in that institution? Did you ever hear 
of anybody being confined in that institution, except people with 
delirium tremens being put in a cell ? A. I don’t know ; no, 
sir, I have not. 
Q. Do you know whether you have heard it? A. I know 
I have not. 
Q. Did you ever hear of anybody being struck by anybody 
there? A. No, sir. 2008 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Did you ever hear of anybody being confined? By con- 
fined, I mean struck down, or tied down- That is what I mean. 
A. No, sir ; no, sir. 
Q. Now, did you hear of that woman that had a baby there 
in 1876? A. A crazy woman? 
Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir ; I heard something about that. 
Q. You mean Charlotte Anderson, I suppose? A. I don’t 
know .who she was. 
Q. Did you ever hear of an}- other? A. Noj sir. 
Q. Was there not a trial of a man there about another woman ? 
A. Not while I was there ; that was just before. 
Q. Just before? A. I heard of the Reed scrape. 
Q. Anything else? Did you hear, before you went there, 
that they used to beat and abuse them? A. No. 1 know 
they had an investigation before I went there, and I heard con- 
siderable about it. 
Q. But that was just before you went there? A. I don’t 
know; it was not a great while before. I cannot recollect 
now. 
Q. Now, about all those vegetables and nice things that they 
used to have on holidays, — they used to have cold roast pork? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They didn’t have any other meat when they had cold 
roast pork? A. No, sir. 
Q. And they used to have the same vegetables they had on 
other days, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The only change for holidays was cold roast pork, or 
cold boiled pork, was it? A. Yes, sir ; cold roast. 
Q. You were asked if they had an}’ delicacies. When you 
talk about that, you mean anything cooked up beforehaud? A. 
Anything extra, I understand. 
Q. You call that extra? A. Well, yes, sir; I think it is 
extra. 
Q. You thought it was extra because that was all the meat 
they had? A. Well, cold roast pork; they had pretty good 
share of it at this time, as much as they could possibly eat, 
most of them. 
Q. I am not going to that. Now, sir, how many barrels of 
flour were used there? A. Well, that 1 cannot tell you. T 
did know, but the baker baked the bread. It was put in the 
bread room. 1 had charge of it, and had it cut up and 
delivered. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2009 
Q. You put a slice at each plate? A. Start with a slice; 
yes, sir. Before the men came in there would be a slice of 
bread at each plate ; and at each table there would go a man 
on each side with a pan, and just as soon as a man got through 
with the first slice he would get another. That was done to 
save waste. 
Q. Some men would not want a slice, I suppose? A. Well, 
very few but what would eat a slice. 
Q. How large was that slice such as but very few men would 
eat? A. Well [referring to an auditor’s report], not quite as 
long as that book but as wide as that, perhaps a little wider, 
and about an inch thick. 
Q. The}’ used to have pieces of bread pretty heavy? A. 
No, sir. Do you mean the loaves were heavy or the bread? 
Q. No, I mean heavy bread ; such as they have in a New 
York eating-saloon. A. No, sir; I have seen pretty good 
bread in a New York eating-house, too. 
Q. That depends somewhat upon who keeps them? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Was this bread as a rule heavy or light? A. It was 
light bread. 
Q. Now, then, having had light bread, how much did a 
slice weigh? A. I could not tell you. I never weighed a 
slice. 
Q. A cook, a man of experience, a New York cook, and 
cannot tell how much a slice of bread would weigh? A. No, 
sir; I never weighed a slice of it. 
Q. About how much ? Two ounces? A. Yes, more than 
that. 
Q. How much? A. More than twice that. 
Q. Four ounces? A. Yes, I think so; I don’t know. 
Q. Six ounces ? A. I could not say, sir ; I never weighed 
it. 
Q. What is your best judgment? A. I would not like to 
guess on it. 
Q. They used to eat one of |hese four or six ounce slices of 
bread? A. Some would eat two or three of them. 
Q. That’s right. I am glad to see them so well fed. They 
would eat one in the morning? A. No, sir ; they had all they 
wanted. 
Q. Some wbuld eat I,wo or three then ; and at night all they 2010 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
would have— A. That was all at night, — tea and bread 
and coffee. 
Q. And the milk was boiled into the coffee? A. No, sir; 
the coffee was boiled, and just before it was ready to be drawn 
off to take to the different departments the milk and sugar was 
put in. 
Q. Now, then, let us see. There were some men that would 
eat three, and some four of these slices of bread, would 
A. I don’t think a great many would eat four, but there were 
plenty who would eat three. When they first came in the}' 
would eat four or five until they got filled up a little. 
Q. In the morning and at noon the}- would eat three or four, 
and in the afternoon three or four; and meat besides. About 
how much weight of meat do you think they would have at 
noon? A. I did know at one time, pretty near. They would 
give a working man pretty close to half a pound. There were 
some men pretty hearty, who worked pretty hard, and we used 
to let them sit by themselves, and give them a little more than 
those who were not working. If we could do it we would put 
them on about what we thought they would eat. 
Q. You would give them half a pound? A. Probably not 
quite that but rather close to it. 
Q. Well, the hearty men? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And these hearty men would want more bread too? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Then we will have a man eating, — we will put that 
down, three times four is twelve ounces of bread in the morn- 
ing ; twelve ounces of bread in the afternoon is twenty-four; 
half a pound of meat at noon, that is eight ounces more, that 
is thirty-two ounces; and three slices of this bread, that is 
twelve more, at night, and that is forty ounces. And they 
would eat forty solid ounces of bread and meat? A. 
the bread might not weigh that. I don’t say the bread would 
weigh that, I never weighed it. I was only giving it rough. 
Q. You went over it pretty emphatically before, and when 
I put it up to six ounces you said, “ I don’t know what it 
weighed, I never weighed it.” Now, sir, I want your judgment. 
Take little and big, — you say half a pound of meat a day, — 
take little and big, children, women and men, what in your 
judgment, — they had meat once a day, — sick and well, what 
in your judgment would be the amount of meat they would con- 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2011 
same? A. I could not tell you. The sick and the little chil- 
dren didn’t come into my part. I am speaking of the healthy. 
Q. You are speaking of those that got half a pound? A. 
I am speaking of those that came in my hall. Those that were 
diseased ; the children in other departments would not eat so 
much, and they would eat a-different kind of food. They would 
have gruel and such as that in the old women’s ward and in the 
hospital. 
Gov. Butler. But the men would get half a pound as the 
average, and then there would he the average deduction, as 
much as the women and children would have. I shall not have 
to trouble you any more. 
Mr. Brown. That is all, Mr. Blair. 
Gov. Butler. I understood an order was passed on Satur- 
day that we should take testimony, to save time, down in Ex- 
eter ; and if that can be done 1 should like to have it done 
to-morrow. Brother Brown can go down and I will send some- 
body down. I should like very much to be away to-morrow. 
It has now been judicially decided that I can step out of the 
Commonwealth without forfeiting my office, and I should like to 
have an opportunity to go out for a little health. I have been 
every day at the executive office, I believe, since I returned to 
it on the second of March. I may have been away one day; 
but at any rate, I have been very closely confined,’and I have 
an opportunity to-morrow to go to sea for a little time, and I 
would like very much to go. In the meantime we won’t lose 
any time, because Brother Brown wjll run down to Exeter and 
I will send somebody down there to take a few depositions. 
It would take three days to go through the same testimony up 
here. 
The Chairman. What do you say, Mr. Brown ? 
Mr. Brown. I don’t see any occasion why we should go 
scouring about the country after testimony. It has not yet ap- 
peared that there is any witness in Exeter who is not willing to 
come here. I shall have witnesses from Exeter and intended to 
produce them here, probably at the very next hearing. Of 
course, if the committee say we shall go to Exeter and take 
testimony, then I desire that every possible thing that can be 
done to facilitate it should be done. But I don’t }ret. see any 
occasion for going to Exeter to take any testimony. There is 
no evidence, that has come to my attention, that there is any- 
body in Exeter who won’t come here, 2012 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I have only to ask the committee’s at- 
tention to this: I know Mr. Brown does not see any occasion. 
I differ with him ; I do. He may have people who are very 
glad to come here. I suppose the Atwoods and the Davises 
would desire to come here to clear their skirts. The facility 
with which witnesses come here on behalf of the defence is 
shown by the fact that Mrs. Bowen has come here from far 
down East upon a letter. But unfortunately m3' witnesses won’t 
come that way. 
Mr. Brown. They come from New York voluntarily. 
Gov. Butler. One witness did ; but she was treated so that 
I shall not be able to get another. 
The Chairman. One from Cleveland and one from Maine. 
Gov. Butler. Precisely so, sir. He came from Cleveland 
because he had a story to tell which he was interested in, evi- 
dentl}’. That was earl}7 in the hearing. But when it was un- 
derstood that everybody was to be abused, everybody was to be 
maligned that came here to testify for the State, men have not 
been anxious to come. I have a long list of those who say: 
“ I know this and that, but }7ou must not call me,” because 
the}7 don’t like the regime. 
Mr. Brown. I have had the same experience. 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubt you have had ; and that only 
shows the necessity of what I am urging upon the committee. 
I am much obliged to be reinforced by my Brother Brown. 
Both of us have the experience that we cannot get the people 
we want. Now, the statuses of the Commonwealth have made 
provision that we may send out and take testimony in another 
tribunal. It will cost the Commonwealth very much less than 
it will to bring these people here upon a greater or less uncer- 
tainty, because it is only the travel and fees of one man to go 
down there and it is the travel and fees of a dozen to come 
here. 
The Chairman. I assume that your evidence is to be in 
rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. My evidence is to be that which will be per- 
tinent to the issue. 
The Chairman. I don’t think the committee would care to 
go into new evidence, cumulative evidence, especially outside of 
the Commonwealth. 
Gov. Butler. 1 don’t know, Mr. Chairman, but what evi- 
dence outside is just as good, if pertinent, as that inside the 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2013 
Commonwealth. We haven’t any patents here on evidence. If 
it is good evidence, the question is as the Dutchman said to his 
wife. He said: “They don’t ask me by what route I came, 
but whether my wheat be good.” And so about evidence. I 
think the chairman will see that if the evidence is competent 
and pertinent, it is what we want to get. It is evidence that 
will be tested by being subjected to cross-examination. I am 
aware that a committee, which lately sat here in this building, 
took affidavits. I think that ought not to be done, because the 
only test of truth is cross-examination. Therefore I move for 
an order, simply that such witnesses may be examined — pre- 
cisely as the order would be under the statute — as may be 
produced before any judicial tribunal; I don’t care what it is, 
any justice of the peace and of the quorum — for they have 
them still, I believe, down in New Hampshire —or any justice 
of the peace, or any commissioner ; it won’t make a copper’s 
difference, because I think it will be taken down by a sten- 
ographer in any event. 
The Chairman. I suppose the question of the competency 
of it will of course — 
Gov. Butler. Will be decided here. 
The Chairman. I for one should object to anything except 
rebutting evidence, because otherwise we should never get 
through. What action will the committee take? 
Mr. Murphy. I for another, Mr. Chairman, should believe 
in the passage of the order, because I don’t think this committee 
can afford to place itself in the position of being opposed to the 
admission of any evidence that will have a bearing on the in- 
vestigation before us. I don’t want to be placed in that posi- 
tion any wray, as a member of the committee. 
The Chairman. The question is, whether depositions shall 
be taken of witnesses outside the State. 
Mr. Brown. May I say a single word, and that is this : of 
course I don’t know whether this evidence is to some new 
charge or whether it is evidence intended to be added to some- 
thing which has already been offered, simply cumulative evi- 
dence, or whether it is evidence in rebuttal. I don’t know 
anything about it. As I said before, if the committee order 
evidence taken in Exeter or anywhere else, I shall try either to 
go or to send somebody ; but I would really like to know what 
I am going about before I start to go into another State; be- 2014 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
cause it might be a matter where I should go itself, or it 
might be perfectly proper for me to send some one. 
Mr. Gilmore. The committee are to have an executive ses- 
sion to-morrow andean consider the subject. 
Gov. Butler. When I get the evidence and offer it its per- 
tinency and its admissibility will be judged of by the committee. 
And I never was called upon to state what my witness would 
swear to before I examined him, and especially should not be in 
this case, because I have not examined him and cannot state. 
Mr. Brown. I would like to a single word. I think 
we are in the midst of a trial, and I think that when a party in 
the midst of a trial asks the other party to go out and take 
depositions he always makes a statement, generally accompanied 
by an affidavit, as to the materiality of the evidence to be taken. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t understand that to be the rule. If 
the trial is asked to be adjourned on that account, that is the 
rule. I do not ask an adjournment. 
Mr. Putney. I would like to inquire of the governor if he 
proposes to submit his testimony at this stage of the hearing? 
Gov. Butler. I propose to keep it for rebutting testimony, 
and I have this reason for that, Mr. Committeeman : that other- 
wise I would have to ask you to adjourn until I can go and take 
it. I am as anxious as anybody can be to shorten this hearing. 
It can be taken now, and I lose a little advantage, because my 
brother, knowing what the rebuttal testimony will be, some of 
it, will strengthen his case a little perhaps. Still I must take 
all that. I don’t propose to submit it at this stage, because it 
would not be proper ; but when we get through T want to have 
m3* testimony ready so as to go right on and close this thing up. 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me, if it is simply cumulative, we 
should not allow the evidence to be admitted at the close of the 
hearing ; but if it is rebutting testimon}* it seems to me there is 
no reason why it should not be admitted, because I suppose 
both sides will have evidence of that kind. 
Mr. Gilmore. I should be in favor of passing the order if 
the evidence is to be used as rebutting evidence. 
Mr. Murphy. As I understand it, we decide whether we 
will accept it when we take it into consideration. The taking 
of the testimony in Exeter has nothing to do with it until it 
comes down before us, then we will decide whether it is proper 
evidence or not. 
The Chairman. My impression is that we had better ad~ 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2015 
journ, and let the governor go away. I would like to go to sea 
with him. When it comes to rebuttal, we will pass upon the 
question. 
Mr. Learnard. I move that the question be laid upon the 
table. 
Mr. Murphy. What is the idea of laying it on the table? 
The Chairman. To settle it at some future time, I suppose. 
Mr. Murphy. Can’t we settle it now ? 
Gov. Butler. That, I suppose, is to inconvenience me. 
Mr. Putney. I suppose it ought to be settled, because both 
sides will probably want a little time if it is to be done to-mor- 
row. 
Mr. Learnard. It won’t take place to-morrow, will it, if 
the governor goes away? 
Mr. Putney. Well, His Excellency will send some one, and 
Mr. Brown will go or send. 
Gov. Butler. I waited all day 3Testerday for his accommo- 
dation with great willingness. 
The Chairman. The motion to lay upon the table is with- 
drawn. 
Mr. Brown. I want to say in reference to that last remark 
that, of course, if the committee say that thej? want testimony 
taken instead of having witnesses brought here, — there being 
no evidence that there is any man who cannot be brought here, 
— we have both had experience in regard to those who say they 
would like to come, but they don’t like to be cross-examined. 
I don’t consider a witness of very much value who is not willing 
to be cross-examined — 
Gov. Butler. They are to be cross-examined. But there 
are people who cannot be brought here because they don’t want 
to come. They don’t care to be mixed up with this sort of mat- 
ter ; but they can be made to tell if the ordinary rules of evi- 
dence are applied, and the method of taking such evidence is 
provided for by statute. I should like to refer to the statute- 
but there is not such a convenience here anywhere. 
Mr. Brown. I will suggest this: that if we are to take 
depositions, those depositions be taken according to the usual 
custom, with interrogatories filed in writing, and cross-inter- 
rogatories filed in writing. 
Gov. Butler. That is not the way. 
Mr. Brown. That is the only provision of the statute, ex- 
cept that it says when they are taken otherwise they may be 2016 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
admitted in the discretion of the court, if all parties have been 
notified. 
Gov. Butler. If you can appoint a commissioner, gentle- 
men, down in the State of New Hampshire, you can do that; 
and if you can’t, you can’t, that is all. Then my brother is a 
little mistaken about this being the only way. 
Mr. Brown. I know it is done in other ways where it is 
agreed to. 
Gov. Butler. [Referring to the statutes.] Well, without 
agreement, sir, as I will show you in a moment. 
Mr. Brown. In the United States court j’ou can take it de 
bene esse anywhere in the United States. 
Gov. Butler. I would not go on. Now, let us see. Page 
989 : [Reading.] 
“ A witness not having his place of abode in this Commonwealth, 
but being at the time herein, may be summoned and compelled to 
give his deposition at any place within ten miles of the place at 
which the summons is served upon him, in like manner and under 
the same penalties as he may be summoned and compelled to attend 
as a witness before a court.” 
“The deposition of a witness without this Commonwealth may be 
taken under a commission issued to one or more competent persons 
in another state or country, by the court in which the cause is pend- 
ing ; or it may be taken before a commissioner appointed by the gov- 
ernor for that purpose, in any part of the United States or in a foreign 
country; and in either case the deposition may be used in the same 
manner and subject to the same conditions and objections as if it had 
been taken in this Commonwealth.” 
“ The courts may make rules not inconsistent with the provisions of 
law, as to the issuing of commissions, either in vacation or term time, 
the filing of interrogatories, and all other matters relating tQ deposi- 
tions taken out of the Commonwealth.” 
“ Depositions and affidavits taken out of the Commonwealth in any 
other manner than is prescribed in the three preceding sections, if 
taken before a notary public or other person authorized by the laws 
of any other state or country to take depositions, may be admitted or 
rejected, at the discretion of the court; but no such deposition or affi- 
davit shall be admitted unless it appears that the adverse party had 
sufficient notice of the taking thereof, and opportunity to cross-ex- 
amine the witness, or that, from the circumstances of the case, it 
was impossible to give him such notice.” 
“ A witness may be summoned and compelled, in like manner and 
under the same penalties as are prescribed in this chapter, to give his 
deposition in a cause pending in a court in any other state or govern- 
ment; which deposition may be taken before a justice of the peace 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2017 
in this Commonwealth, or before commissioners appointed under the 
authority of the state or government in which the suit is pending; 
and if the deposition is taken before such commissioners, the witness 
may be summoned and compelled to appear before them by pi’ocess 
from a justice of the peace in this Commonwealth.” 
Now, then, the same rule is in New Hampshire ; that where a 
ease is pending here, and a witness is wanted, we can take his 
deposition there. And I have for many years been summoned 
myself and summoned people, going to New Hampshire and 
taking depositions by the day, taking care that theyr shall have 
ample time for cross-examination — that is the only thing. If 
they refuse to go, a deposition is never rejected, and in some 
cases affidavits are admitted, where it is impossible from the 
nature of things to have a cross-examination. 
The Chairman. I suppose depositions taken for our use 
would be voluntary — that we have no power to issue a com- 
mission to go outside of the State. The parties outside would 
not be bound to obey it. But I take it they would volunteer to 
come before a justice of the peace or notary in Exeter, and 
when the deposition should be returned here we could use it. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Then I suggest this difficulty : that, if this is so, 
then why would not the parties make the same objection to 
going before a commission as to coming here. 
Gov. Butler. They can be compelled, by the laws of New 
Hampshire, the same as they7 can be compelled here by our law, 
to go before them. 
The Chairman. It seems to me the question of rebutting 
testimony can well be settled when we come to rebuttal. 
Mr. Learnard. Do I understand that the governor states 
that the witnesses refuse to come? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; there are two or three that I have 
sent for and they have utterly refused to come. They say : if 
we are obliged to tell what we know, to give our deposition, we 
will; but we won’t come voluntarily, for we don’t want to be 
mixed up in this matter. There are at least three that have 
been reported to me for that. The question of rebutting testi- 
mony, if the chairman please, when it is offered, will be settled. 
It is a question of taking testimony7; it is a question of what is 
the common and ordinary thing. It ought to be done at the 
earliest possible time in order not to keep the tribunal waiting. 
And I should say that you would have the right to say to me: 2018 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
now, you knew you were going to use this testimony, why do 
you ask us to wait, to prolong this hearing, while you send 
down to take it, — if I didn’t do it, knowing of its existence; 
and I should have to bow to such a decision, I think. T should 
have to bowr to it anyway, but I think I should have to bow to 
it very gracefully. Because it is my duty — and I think J know 
my duty in this regard, because this is my profession —it is my 
duty at the earliest time I can to get my testimony ready. 
And I have been intending for some days to make this motion, 
but one thing and another has prevented ; and I made it last 
Saturday and I thought it was all agreed to ; and my brother 
agreed to send me the name of a man he would agree upon, and 
the only reason that he didn’t do it, I suppose, was that he was 
suddenly called away. 
Mr. Brown. I agreed to that, and I made that agreement 
because you told me that you understood the committee had 
passed the order; but when 1 came here this morning I found 
otherwise. But I say now that 1 am willing to do anything ; if 
the committee order depositions taken in New Hampshire — 
Gov. Butler. I understood there was an order passed. 
Mr. Gilmore. No order was passed. 
Gov. Butler. I made the motion and I thought it was done 
by consent. 
Mr. Gilmore. I made answer that the committee would 
consider the suggestion. The committee immediately ad- 
journed and the matter has not been brought up since. 
Gov. Butler. I came to that conclusion because the chair 
said: “Do the parties agree to it?” And 1 understood Mr. 
Brown to agree to It, and he waited, and I was waiting, and 1 
understood that that was the passage of the order ; I didn’t 
suppose it was necessary to take a formal vote. It seems that 
light has beamed on some of us since. 
Mr. Putney. I move that His Excellency have opportunity 
to take depositions in New Hampshire, and also that Mr. Brown 
have the same opportunity; and when the evidence comes here 
it be for the committee to decide whether it shall be admitted. 
The Chairman. It is moved and seconded that the governor 
have opportunity to take depositions as moved for, and that Mr. 
Brown have the same opportunity. 
[A vote was taken and the order was passed.] 
The Chairman. Now, shall I make a sort of a caption and 
order ? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2019 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; 1 think so. 
The Chairman. Now, your Excellency wants to-morrow? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. I will send right down to-morrow ; 
1 will send Mr. Carrigan. 
The Chairman. Can we go on Friday? 
Mr. Brown. We would like to take the official stenographer. 
Gov. Butler. I cannot go on to-morrow, because Mr. Brown 
will want to be away. 
Mr. Brown. If the committee are going on 1 should not go 
to Exeter. 
The Chairman. The committee are disposed to let the gov- 
ernor have his day at sea to-morrow. 
Mr. Wolcott. Will counsel be ready by Friday? 
Gov. Butler. I shall be. 
Adjourned to meet on Friday, June 8, at 9.30 a. bi. 2020 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
FORTY-FOURTH HEARING. 
Friday, June 8. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30, Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Harriet H. Sanborn (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name ? A. Harriet H. Sanborn. 
Q. Where do you live ? A. Jam stopping at Tewksbury. 
Q. What is your present occupation? A. Well, sir, I am 
supposed to be matron of the institution ; stopping at the asy- 
lum, now. 
Q. You are at present the matron of the institution? A. 
Yes. 
Q. And you have been appointed within a few weeks, have 
you? A. Appointed the first of January. 
Q. Now, madam, how long have you been connected with 
the institution? A. I came there last January,—the first, this 
time. 
Q. This time? A. This time; and I came eleven years 
ago last March, and stopped there until two years ago in June, 
—this June. 
Q. Eleven years ago last March? A. March. 
Q. That would be in March 18—? A. 1872. 
Q. Now, prior to March, ’72, had you ever been at the insti- 
tution? A. I had been there about six months once before 
that time. 
Q. When was that? A. Well, I can’t tell you just what 
year it was ; sometime nineteen or twenty' years ago. 
Q. Nineteen or twenty years ago? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When you were there nineteen or twenty years, ago, was 
Mrs. Thomas J. Marsh the matron? A. She was; yes, sir. 
Q. Was Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., connected with the institu- 
tion? A. Yes, sir. 1883. 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2021 
Q. What physicians were there? A. Dr. Brown. 
Q. Any others? A. Not any; no, sir. 
Q. No others at that time? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, when you went there eleven years ago last June — 
A. March. 
Q. Last March, who was the physician? A. Dr. Nichols 
and Dr. Marsh. 
Q. That is, Dr. Nellie Marsh? A. Dr. Nellie Marsh. 
Q. Any others? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you recollect Mr. Dudley and his wife, who testified 
here? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You were there when they were there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Through the whole period of their service? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Do you recollect Mr. Barker and his wife? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Were you there through the whole period of their service ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, from ’72,—March, ’72,—when you entered the em- 
ployment of the institution the second time, down to the time 
when you left, what was your occupation there,—what was your 
particular duty ? A. I had charge of the upper wards,—the 
rooms. I had to see to the women ; see that their rooms, their 
wards, were kept in order, and to their bathing; and those that 
took their meals in their rooms, to see to those. 
Q. In what department was that; the insane department? 
A. No, sir ; that was in the other department; in the house 
department. 
Q. How long did you continue to perform that duty ? A. 
All of the time that I was there ; a little over nine years. 
Q. Now, madam, did you have anything to do with the bath- 
ing,—that is, the superintendence of the bathing of the inmates? 
A. I did, of the women that were under my care. 
Q. And, now, during these eleven years, what apparatus was 
there there for bathing? A. We had our iron bath-tubs. 
Q. Same that you have now? A. Same that we have 
now. 
Q. And how was the water communicated to the tubs ? A. 
By pipes and faucets ; iron pipes and faucets. 
Q. Did you have hot and cold water? A. Hot and cold 
water. 
Q. Now, do you recollect whether that was cistern water or 2022 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr- 
brook water, or where the water came from that supplied those 
tubs? A. Well, J suppose it came from the reservoir. The 
reservoir was filled, I think, with water from the brook. 
Q. Was that very clear water? A. Very clear. 
Q. Or was it kind of sweetened water, like? A. Some- 
times it would be a little colored, but, as a general thing, it was 
clear. 
Q. Now, did you ever know any inmate, during the eleven 
37ears you were there, did you ever know an}r inmate to be 
bathed in the water in which any other inmate had been previ- 
ously bathed? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever know an inmate to bathed in dirty water? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Did 3’ou have anything to do with the bathing of the in- 
mates on their first admission to the institution? A. Notun- 
less, sometimes, 1 might be in the baggage-room when the 
matron of the baggage-room was away; X might have the 
charge of it at that time. 
Q. Well, now, madam, did you use the water from the same 
source, and the same tubs, for your own personal use, that was 
used by the inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Always? A. Always. 
Q. Did other female officers of the institution during that 
period use the same bath-tubs and the water from the same 
source? A. They did not use the same bath-tubs; they have 
at the present time a separate bath-tub. 
Q. I mean at the time you were there first? A. No, sir; 
they did not. 
Q. Did not? A. No, sir; did not use these bath-tubs. 
Q. Did they use the same water; that is, the water from 
the same source? A. We used the same water. 
Q. That is, water from the same source? A. From the 
same source. 
Q. Was there ever, within your knowledge, any lack of clean- 
liness in these bath-tubs, in the manner in which they were 
kept? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever know two people to be bathed in the same 
water? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. You asked that question before. 
The Witness. I don’t think I ever did. 
Mr. Brown. Excuse me ; I had forgotten I asked it. 
Q. Now, madam, take the food, — or, rather, take the beds 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2023 
and bedding, as to what they were? A. The}7 were always 
in a good condition, as a general thing. 
Gov. Butler. Always as a general thing. 
The Witness. As to cleanliness. 
Q. As to cleanliness? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, you say as a general thing; do you recollectlany 
special instances where the beds and bedding were not in such 
condition as you would approve? A. Sometimes, when we 
got out of material for the bedding, sometimes, — but just as 
soon as it came we always had it. 
Q. And do you recollect to have been out for ail}7 consider- 
able length of time? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was there always sufficient bed-clothing? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Now, in the female department, or in any other depart- 
ment of the institution, did you ever hear, during the period 
you were there, any complaint of any acts of cruelty to patients ? 
A. No, sir; I don’t know that I ever did. 
Q. Did you sit at the same table with Mr. and Mrs. Dudley? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you see them frequently? A. Very seldom. 
Q. Very seldom? A. I never saw them to have any con- 
versation with them at all. 
Q. Did you sit at the same table with Mr. and Mrs. Barker? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you see them occasionally? A. No, sir; very 
seldom. 
Q. They were in what was called the insane department? 
A. The insane ; yes, sir. 
Q. Now, did you have any knowledge or any opportunity of 
ascertaining whether Mrs. Marsh — the old lady Marsh — was 
in the habit of taking the inmates’ clothing? A. I never knew 
of her taking any inmate’s clothing. 
Q. Did you ever hear any complaint in the institution or out 
of it from any inmate or any person who had been an inmate? 
Gov. Butler. Do you coniine it to that? 
Mr. Brown. What is that? 
Gov. Butler. Do you confine it to that, or is it the general 
question ? 
Mr. Brown. I confine it to that, now. 
Q. Did you ever hear from any person who had been an 2024 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
inmate, or any person who was an inmate, any complaint that 
their clothing had been taken? A. No, sir; T never did. 
Q. Did you ever know any inmates to come there with silk 
dresses? A. I have seen a few. 
Q. Valuable silk dresses? A. No, sir; they were not. 
Q. You were familiar with the manner in which the inmates’ 
clothing was kept for preservation? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. During their stay at the institution? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. After it was taken from them? A. Yes,* r. 
Q. Now, did you have any opportunity of seeing how the 
children were treated? — the foundlings, for instance? A. I 
did. 
Q. What opportunity did you have? A. Well, I had the 
charge of them for a while. 
Q. During what period did 3’ou have charge of the foundling 
children ? A. I could not tell you wben it was. 
Q. Give it as nearly as you can. A. I think it must have 
been in ’73 and, perhaps, part of the year ’74. 
Q. ’74? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And where were they kept at that time? A. They were 
kept in a wooden building down in the yard, what is now a part 
of the female hospital. 
Gov. Butler. That is the building which has been so often 
described ; 30 feet by 35. 
Mr. Brown. It is the same one. 
Q. Now, madam, after you left the foundling department in 
’73 or ’74, whatever the time may have been, did you have an 
opportunity of observing what was going on in there? A. No, 
sir ; I did not. 
Q. You did not frequent the place? A. I did not; no, 
sir. 
Q. Now, while you were in the foundling department what 
facilities were there for the proper care of those foundling chil- 
dren? A. Well, we had a plenty of clothing for them, and a 
plenty of everything to use for them, excepting, perhaps, they 
might have,—our help, perhaps, at times, might have been a 
little short; we had only inmate help. 
Q. Only inmate help? A. Inmate help to take care of 
them. 
Q. Now, in your judgment, whether that, as to the quality 
of it, was sufficient? A. Perhaps not; no, sir, I don’t think 
it was'. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2025 
Q. Now, how man}' foundlings was the greatest number you 
knew in the institution while you had charge of that depart- 
ment? A. I think somewhere about fourteen. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) At one time? A. At one time; 
yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.; Were you the only nurse in attend- 
ance at the foundling hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All the other assistance was that of inmates, was it? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, as to the food; was there a plenty of food? A. 
There was. 
Gov. Butler. She has already said that; why go over it? 
Mr. Brown. I wanted to limit it to the foundling depart- 
ment. 
Gov. Butler. She has already said that as to the foundling- 
department. 
Q. Now, since you have been connected with the institution, 
some nineteen or twenty years ago, and whenever you have 
been connected with it, has there ever been, in any of the depart- 
ments in which you have served, a lack of food? A. No, sir. 
Q. Have you ever served in the hospital department? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Emmons French? A. I wasn’t any 
acquainted with him. 
Q. Did you know his wife, now Mrs. Young? A. No, 
sir; not anything more than to speak with her; I never had 
any conversation with her at all. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Sanborn, I suppose, as matron since the 
first of January, it has come within' your duty to visit every 
part of that institution, has it? A. In the female depart- 
ment. 
Q. In the female department? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, if there is any difference in any of these depart- 
ments now, since the inauguration of His Excellency, or any 
material change, or any substantial improvement that you can 
think of which did not exist during the nine years from 1872 — 
Gov. Butler. Eleven years. 
Mr. Brown. Eleven years ago, but she left two years ago ; 
she was there nine years. 
Q. During these nine years, L want you to tell the commit- 
tee what it was and what it is. A. I think that there has 
not been but a very little change. 2026 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Well? A. Not any change at all within the last six 
months. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) The last how many months? A. 
The last six months. The house, I found when I came back, 
was in just about the same condition that it was wThen I left it 
two years ago. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is as to neatness? A. As to 
neatness, and cleanliness, and everything. 
Q. Any improvement in the quality of the beds and bed- 
ding? A. No, sir ; I don’t know' as there is. 
Q. Any improvement in the quality of the food ? 
Gov. Butler. She covers everything. 
A. Everything. 
Q. Have there been any mechanical improvements that you 
recollect? A. Yes, sir; I think there has. 
Q. Such as what? A. They have put in water-closets; 
they have made improvements since 1 left there, very much. 
Q. That is, since you left two years ago? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Anything else that you think of? A. No, sir ; I don’t 
know, excepting — 
Q. Has there been any increase in the number of bath-tubs? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. In any of the departments ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Since you left two years ago? A. No, sir. 
Q. Were there any additional bath-tubs put in during the 
nine years you were there that you recollect? A. No, sir; 
not that I know of. I could not tell you what was done in the 
insane building. 
Q. You can’t tell as to that? A. No, sir. 
Q. But as to the other part? A. As to the other part 
there has been none. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think of anything else, Governor. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Then everything, so far as you know, in regard to that 
institution, its management, its administration, in food, in 
clothing, in treatment of all the inmates, within your knowledge, 
is just as good now as it was when you went there, and it was 
just as good when you went there first as it is now? A. No, 
sir; there have been a great many improvements made in the 
last eleven years. 
Q. Well, pardon me; will you state those improvements, if 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2027 
it was all right before, — what improvements ? A. What im- 
provements ? 
Q. What improvements have been made ; yes? A. There 
has been a great many improvements made in that time. 
Q. Without going over a great many, just tell me what 
there is, — if it was all right before? A. When I came 
there, eleven years ago, there were no water-closets in the main 
part of the building ; those have been put in since. 
Q. Water-closets; what else? A. And the attics have 
been taken out since I went there. 
Q. The what? A. The attics. 
Q. Attics taken off ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What else ? A. I don’t know as I remember anything 
else. 
Q. Very well, then. A. But these have been done. 
Q. 1 know, you said so ; you need not repeat it. With the 
exception, then, of the attics and water-closets, has everything 
been going on, as regards the inmates, their treatment, their 
food, their clothing, their cleanliness, and the general care of 
them,—is it the same now as it was. eleven years ago ; and if 
not, I want 3am to tell me the difference. If it is the same, that 
ends it. A. I think the37 have always had plenty of clothes. 
Q. I don’t care what you think they have always had. I 
want 3’ou to answer m3' question, madam ; I will have it read to 
you, and I want that answered and I don’t want to be told an3’- 
thing else. 
Q. [Previous question read by the reporter.] A. I think 
it is. 
Q. Then, if an37body comes here and swears that since 1872 
there have been any improvements in these regards, in these 
respects in that institution, the3r don’t tell the truth, do they, 
so far as 3rou know ? A. So far as I know ; no, sir. 
Q. So far as 3'ou know ? A. I know nothing outside of my 
own department. 
Q. Ah ; then 3'ou confine what 3’ou say to 3’our own depart- 
ment? A. To m37 own department. 
The Chairman. That is the insane department? 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; she never was in the insane depart- 
ment. 
Q. (B3t the Chairman.) What department, Mrs. Sanborn? 
A. The female department. I had charge of the upper 
wards when I first went there. 2028 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Of the female department? A. The female depart- 
ment. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) And afterwards, —? A. And 
afterwards, for a year and a half, I had the charge of the de- 
partment,—of the wrhole of the female department. 
Mr. Brown. And then you had the foundlings. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Then, we will deal with the whole 
of the female department for those years, and your knowledge 
about it; and has all your testimony had reference to your own 
department solely? A. Yes. sir; I know nothing outside of 
my own department. 
Q. Did you eat at Captain Marsh’s table? A. I did not. 
Q. Were there two separate officers’ tables? A. There 
were three. 
Q. Three; what officers eat at your table? A. I don’t 
know as I could tell you all of them. 
Q. Well, tell me as many as you can? A. There were 
somewhere about twenty that eat at the same table that I cat 
at. 
Q. But Mr. and Mrs. Barker were not of that twenty? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Mr. Dudley and wife were not of that twenty ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Where did they eat? A. They had a dining-room,— 
all of the attendants in the asylum and the hospitals had a din- 
ing-room by themselves. 
Q. The hospital attendants had a dining-room by them- 
selves? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then all these people who were not attendants at the 
hospital, if any of them have testified to eating with Mr. and 
Mrs. Dudley, they have made a mistake. Well, now, did you 
ever see the pond? A. What pond do you refer to? 
Q. Did you ever see a little institution in that place called 
the pond? A. When I was there somewhere about twenty 
years ago, the}’ had a pond. 
Q. They had a pond ; very well. A. The same as they 
have — 
Q. Where was that pond? A. It wms in the bathing- 
room. 
Q. In the bathing-room? A. Yes, sir; down in the base- 
ment. 
Q. And was it used for bathing ? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2029 
Q. ’ When was that pond taken out? A. I could not tell 
you. 
Q. About when? A. I could not tell you when it was 
taken out. 
Q. Tell me within five years ? A. It w*as taken out before 
I came there eleven years ago. 
Q. That is, it was taken out before 1873? A. Before 
1872. 
Q. Before 1872 ; all right; and was never there afterwards? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. And nobody bathed in it, of course, if it weren’t there? 
So far as you know, there has not been a single batliing-tub 
added from the time 3'ou came there, in 1872, down to to-day ? 
A. I know nothing about what has been added to the insane 
asylum. 
Q. Answer m3' question. A. But in an3' — 
Q. Answer my question ; so far as 3’ou know, there has not 
been a single bathing-tub added to that institution since you 
went there eleven 3Tears ago? A. No, sir ; I don’t know aiy'- 
thing about it. 
Q. What? You don’t know aii3’thing about it; there may 
have been forty and there ma3T have been none. Now, how 
many females did 3’ou have under your charge? A. Perhaps I 
might have averaged 125. 
Q. That is as good an average as an3* other. Where did 
the3' bathe? A. In the bathing-room down in the basement. 
Q. Down in the basement. Was that appropriated to them 
alone, or did they- bathe with the other inmates there? A. 
That was appropriated for them for the main house, for the 
women’s side of the house. 
Q. Anybody else bathe there but them ? A. No, sir. 
Q. How man3' bath-tubs, eleven 3'ears ago, were there in 
that bathing-room ? A. I think there were four. 
Q. Sure about that? A. I won’t sa3' for certain, but I am 
ven' sure there were four. 
Q. Was the water heated l>3' steam? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. B3' steam? A. At that time. 
Q. At that time. A113' change from that time been made in 
that regard? A. Yes, sir; there has been a change. 
Q. Now, you have hot and cold water, do you? A. Yes, 
sir. 2030 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. You bathed once a week, — had a bathing day, I sup- 
pose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What time in the morning did you commence bathing ? 
A. We used to commence soon after breakfast, anywhere from 
seven to half-past seven. 
Q. In the morning? A. In the morning. 
Q. And what time did you get through? A. Sometimes 
we would get through by ten o’clock and sometimes by eleven ; 
it would be according to how many we had. 
Q. I am now talking about the average, the average time. 
Well, suppose now you went there in the morning, you began 
bathing ; you filled your tub with cold water. A. Cold and hot 
together. 
Q. What, when you heated it by steam? A. When we 
heated it by steam, we turned on the faucet with cold water and 
then turned on the steam at the same time. 
Q. Now, don’t hurry; you shall have time enough. You 
went in the morning and filled the bathing-tub as much as it 
ought to be filled with cold water? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then you put on the steam and heated it up to the 
proper temperature. How long would it take to heat with steam 
a cold-water bathing-tub up to the ordinal temperature, to 90, 
80 to 90? A. I could not tell you just how long it would 
take. 
Q. Well, about how long, — for some of us may know how 
long it does take to heat that water by steam? A. It would 
depend on whether we had a full head of steam or not. That 
had something to do with it. 
Q. I want to know when there was a full head of steam. A. 
It might, pei’haps, take, — sometimes it would take longer and 
sometimes shorter ; I could not tell you. 
Q. Well, I could have guessed at that without having 3 0u 
swear to it. Now, can’t }rou tell me how long it took? Can 
3rou tell me within five minutes? A. No, sir. 
Q. Within ten? A. No, sir. 
Q. Within fifteen? A. No, sir. 
Q. Within half an hour? A. No, sir; I can’t tell 3*011. 
Q. On 3Tour oath 3*011 can’t tell me within half an hour how 
long it would take to heat it. Well, now, let 11s see, — we will 
leave that out; how long would it take to bathe them after 
they got into the bath-tub before they got out, how long would 1883.] 
HOUSE3—No. 300. 
2031 
they occupy the bath-tub? A. I can’t tell you ; it might take 
some longer — 
Q. And some shorter, yes. A. Some would stay in a half 
an hour, if you would let them. 
Q. What? A. I have seen some who would stay in for 
half an hour. 
Q. If you would let them ; but what was about the average 
time? A. Anywhere from five to ten minutes, perhaps. 
Q. Well, from five to ten minutes; five would be pretty 
short; and each time one got out that was in the bath-tub, then 
the water would be allowed to run out? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that would take how many minutes ? A. It would 
take, perhaps, five minutes ; it might not take so long as that; 
I never timed it. 
Q. Well, about five minutes, we will say. Now, let us see 
about bathing a person ; how long would it take to fill the tub ? 
A. I could not tell you. 
Q. About how long ; you have done that for eleven years ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, can’t you tell me about how long it would take to 
fill up that tub, after eleven years’ experience? A. It might 
take fifteen minutes and might not take that time. 
Q. Well, what do you give as your best opinion about it; 
shall we settle down to five or ten? I want to get your opinion. 
A. It might take five. 
Q. Well, we will say five. Five to fill with cold, can’t tell 
within half an hour how long it would take to warm it, but we 
will call that five. A. We have our hot and cold water. 
Q. Pardon me, I am now on when they had the steam, 
madam. A. The steam was turned on at the same time the 
cold water was let in, the same time. 
Q. Very well, we will leave that out; the same time with 
the cold water? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, they stay in from five to ten minutes, sometimes 
half an hour, — ten, very well: then it takes five minutes to 
draw off the water ready to start again. Well, then, the 
shortest possible time would be fifteen minutes to a person, and 
from that to an indefinite period. Now, 125 people, on an 
average, would bathe that way in the morning between half-past 
seven to ten, and sometimes eleven o’clock. You had to hurry 
up your cakes pretty fast, didn’t you? A. We did. 
Q.- And not bathe two in the same water. Now, don’t you 2032 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
see, madam,—just take that reckoning, and I have taken your 
lowest time, that it would be impossible to do that in that num- 
ber of hours? Are you a married woman, madam? A. 1 am 
not married, now. 
Q. Widow? A. I am. 
Q. Your husband employed at Tewksbury ever? A. He 
was. 
Q. What? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Can you tell me now, madam, about Mr. Barker; did 
you ever hear any complaint of him while you were there? A. 
I never heard him make an}' complaint. 
Q. Did you ever hear an}' complaint of Mrs. Barker while 
you were there ? A. I never heard her make any complaint. 
Q. No, no, hear any complaint of them? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear any complaint of Mr. Dudley while 
they were there? A. I don’t know that I ever heard any. 
Q. While they were there, I mean. Did you ever hear any 
complaint of Mrs. Dudley while they were there ? A. 1 could 
not tell you that I ever did. 
Q. So far as you know— A. So far as I know. 
Q. They were clever and respectable people? A. I know 
nothing about them. 
Q. Now, did you know or hear, madam, while you were 
there, during the eleven years that any bodies were being car- 
ried off to be dissected? A. I have heard of such things. 
Q. How early did you hear of that? A. I could not tell 
you. 
Q. About how early? A. I could not tell you when I first 
heard of it. 
Q. Hear of it the first time you were there ? A. I don’t 
know that I did. 
Q. Hear it the second time you were there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. Yes. 
Q. From whom did you hear it? A. I could not tell you 
who I heard it from. 
Q. Can’t you tell me whether you heard it from any of the 
officers or the inmates? A. No, sir; T could not tell you 
who. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Manning? A. Who? 
Q. Mr. Manning? A. Manning? 
Q. Yes. A. I did not. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2033 
Q. Do you know Mrs. Manning? A. I have seen the 
lady. 
Q. Seen her there at the institution? A. No, sir; I 
have not seen her there. 
Q. Did you ever hear that anj' of the inmates, insane in- 
mates, were locked up in cells? A. I may have heard so; I 
don’t know. 
Q. You may have heard so? A. Yes; I may. 
Q. I should think likely ; but, then, I want to know whether 
you did or not. A. I think I did hear it. 
Q. Don’t you know you did? Weren’t }Tou there when the 
trustees came and let them out? A. Well, I had nothing to 
do with the insane. 
Q. I didn’t ask whether you had anything to do with them. 
A. And I didn’t know. No, sir; I don’t know that I knew 
when the trustees came and let them out. 
Q. Didn’t you know of it at the time? I should think such 
a thing would be spoken of at the institution. A. No, sir; 
there are a great many things happen at the institution there 
that I knew nothing of. 
Q. Then they kept things quiet from you, a great many 
things that happened ; you have said that you didn’t know any- 
thing about Mrs. Marsh stealing the clothes? A. No, sir; I 
never saw Mrs. Marsh — 
Q. That is one of the things they didn’t let you know any- 
thing about. Did you ever hear anything about Tom Marsh’s 
libertinism? A. No, sir. 
Q. That is one of the things they didn’t let you know any- 
thing about. Did you ever hear that the board of state chari- 
ties had charged Ellen Marsh with killing some people? A. I 
think I read it in the paper. 
Q. How long ago? A. I could not tell }'Ou how long ago 
it was. 
Q. That was in the papers ; and were }Tou there at the time 
that Governor Rice examined the dish-cloths? A. I was 
there at that time ; I could not tell you about his examining the 
dish-cloths ; I didn’t see him. 
Q. He so told us, he did. You were there at the time? A. 
I -was. 
Q. Well, didn’t you know that the board of state charities 
had made complaints, not about the dish-cloths, but about Mrs. 2034 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
' [Apr. 
Marsh carrying off the clothes? At that time, didn’t you hear 
of that complaint? A. I could not say I did. 
Q. What? A. I don’t know that I did ; I cannot remem- 
ber. 
Q. Won’t you try and remember that thing, where your 
matron was charged with such a thing as that; you might have 
heard the charge,— the charge is false, undoubtedly. A. Yes. 
Q. Of course it was; but, then, they made the charge,— 
didn’t you hoar of the charge being made then? A. No, sir; 
I didn’t hear the charge was made. I heard you read the 
charges the other day ; that is the first I ever heard of the 
charges that were made at that time. 
Q. The first you ever heard? A. When 1 heard you read 
it last week. 
Q. Did you ever hear of any of the inmates being hurt in 
any way? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never heard of that. Now, what you mean to tell us 
is that, so far as your department was concerned, you took 
care of it well? A. I took care of it; yes, sir. 
Q. But, beyond that, you don’t know? A. I don’t know 
anything about any other department outside of m3" own. 
Q. And I suppose each one would come and swear they 
didn’t do it. Yours was all right; how the others were, you 
don’t know? A. I don’t know anything about the others. 
Q. Now, madam, about these foundlings ; you took care of 
them? A. I did for a while. . 
Q. For a while ; a year and a half? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How man}' passed through }'our hands during that year 
and a half? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. About how many ? A. I could not tell j-ou how many 
there was. 
Q. About how many of them died? A. Well, the most of 
them died, I guess. 
Q. IIow near the most? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Will you swear they didn’t all die? A. I can’t swear 
to it. 
Q. You can’t swear they didn’t all die? A. No, sir; I 
could not swear to it. 
Q. The}' had enough to eat? A. They did. 
Q. And enough medicine; a good large room, — 30 feet by 
35, — windows on all sides ; had room and air enough ; good 
beds and bedding, hadn’t they ? A. lres, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2035 
Q. Plenty of clothes? Were kept clean? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And plenty of good doctoring, hadn’t they? A. Yes, 
sir ; Dr. Nichols had charge of them while I was there. 
Q. He was an experienced physician, wasn’t he? A. I 
suppose he was ; yes. 
Q. Did you see anything wrong abont it? A. No, sir; I 
don’t think I did. 
Q. Now, everything was good we have asked about, except 
the nursing, and if they all died they must have died of nurs- 
ing, didn’t they ? A. I could not tell you whether it was the 
nursing or what it was. 
Q. But, for some reason, they all died? A. Some of them 
wasn’t there long enough to be nursed a great deal. 
Q. I understand ; they were living there as long as you 
would let them live, weren’t they? A. I don’t know whether 
they were or not. 
Q. Don’t ? Did anybody come and take them away except 
the undertaker? A. Yes, sir; once in a while. 
Q. About what was their average life? A. I could not 
tell you. 
Q. Had you any children of your own? A. I have one. 
Q. Well, now, here were young children who appealed to a 
woman’s kindly feeling, and they were dying under her hand, 
all of them, and you had the care, — do you mean, now, to tes- 
tify to this committee that you don’t know enough about them 
to know about what their average life was in jxmr hands ? A. 
Some of them would come in there, and they would not be in 
there twenty-four hours before they would die; I have known 
them to come in where they would not live eight hours. 
Q. Very- good. Now, you see you do remember something 
about it. Now, won’t you tell me what the average life of them 
was? A. Some might live six weeks ; six months. 
Q. Will you say that one did live six months? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. How many? A. I could not tell you how many. 
Q. Will you swear there was more than one? A. Yes, sir ; 
I think there was. 
Q. You think there was; will you swear there were, — 
because the register will tell about that, — do you have such a 
memory you can tell that more than one lived six months? A. 
I can’t tell 3'ou. 
Q. Well, say five months, then; any of them live five 2036 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
Apr. 
months? [Witness paused.] What proportion of them do you 
think died within eight hours? A. I could not tell you what 
proportion of them. 
Q. Will you swear there was more than one of those? A. 
No, sir ; I won’t swear to it, because I can’t tell you ; I can’t 
remember, it was so long ago. 
Q. Ah, but you undertook to tell me; I asked you the 
average life, and you undertook to say some came in and didn’t 
live more than twenty-four hours, and some didn’t live more 
than eight; now, that was a general swearing which I didn’t 
think much of, and I want to pin you down, because I have got, 
now, where the register will help me. Will }*ou swear there 
was one died in eight hours? A. I will not swear to it, but I 
think there was. 
Q. But you did swear very swiftly, without my asking you, 
just now. Now, madam, will you swear that there was one 
that didn’t live twenty-four hours? [Witness paused.] Don’t 
wait as long as they used to live before you answer. A. I 
think there was. 
Q. Will you swear there was? I am frank to tell you wh}r 
I ask you, madam; I want to know if there is an institution in 
Boston or elsewhere sending up foundlings there, putting the 
State to the expense of sending an officer and a nurse with 
them, who were moribund, who were dying at the time ; because 
I think that institution wants investigating, if there is such a 
one. [Witness made no reply.] Now, madam, about this 
clothing, if }'ou won’t answer that question ; about the inmates’ 
clothing; do you mean to sajT you never heard it spoken of 
that inmates’ clothing was taken and used there ? A. I never 
knew it to be. 
Q. What? A. I have heard so, but I never saw it. 
Q. I know; you heard so? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did j'ou hear so? A. I could not tell }tou when 
I heard so. 
Q. About how many years ago? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Within five years of the time? I will tell you why I 
ask 3'Ou, madam. I observed that Mr. Brown, and I asked 
him if he meant to confine the question about complaints to 
complaints by the inmates; because the charge was the}' took 
the dead inmates’ clothing, and I didn’t suppose they made any 
complaint, so you could well swear you never heard them com- 
plain. A. I never heard the living. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2037 
Q. No, nor the living inmates, because theirs weren’t taken ; 
it was the dead ones whose were taken, the dead and ab- 
sconded, if any was taken. The living ones hadn’t any cause 
to complain. Now, you did hear that charge made ; can you 
tell me within five years of when it was made? A. I could 
not tell you when I heard it. 
Q. Within five years, madam, of the time? A. I could 
not tell you. # 
Q. Can’t you tell me within ten years of when you heard 
that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you hear it the first time you were there ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. How do you know you didn’t, if you can’t tell me when ? 
A. I could not tell you when I heard it. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Sanborn, on your oath, do you mean to swear 
that you can’t tell — A. I cannot tell. 
Q. Wait and hear the whole question, — that you cannot 
tell whether, during the nine years that you were there, you 
heard that or not? A. I could not tell you when I heard it. 
Q. Just leave out the “ when I heard it.” That, you see, is 
an escape for the conscience that I mean to close. Understand 
the question, madam; the question is this: Can’t you tell 
whether you heard it within the nine years that you were 
there, — that is the question. A. I might have heard it. 
Q. I know you might. A. I can’t tell. 
Q. And you might have heard it at an}7 other time ; didn’t 
you hear it within the nine years that you were there? A. I 
might have heard it. 
Q. I know, you might have heard it; didn’t you hear it 
within the nine years you were there? A. I could not tell 
you whether I heard it when I was there within the nine years 
or not. 
Q. Then, you mean to swear to this committee, on your 
oath, that you can’t tell whether you heard,—you know you 
heard that complaint, — but you can’t tell whether you heard it 
within the nine years that you were there or not? A. No, sir; 
I could not tell whether it was in the nine years that I was 
there. 
Q. Did you hear it within the last two years before the first 
of January? A. I have heard that complaint. 
Q. Did you hear it within the last two years before the first 
of January? A. Before this last January? 2038 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Yes. A. I don’t know that I ever heard it. 
Q. Do you know whether you did or not? A. I could not 
tell. 
Q. Now, how many silk dresses have you seen there during 
the nine years you were there? A. I could not tell you whether 
I ever saw more than three or not. I know there was one 
woman came in who wore in her silk dress and she wore it out; 
and I know that there is two in the baggage-room — you prob- 
ably saw them — that two inmates had who died, that are there. 
Q. And you never happened to see only these three? A. 
No, sir; those, I think, are the only ones I ever saw; I might 
have seen some, part of silk, with some other material with it. 
Q. Did you have anything to do with the sewing-room? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Was it in }’our department? A. No, sir. 
Q. Were the people that worked in it your people? A. 
Some of them. 
Q. People under your charge? A. Under my charge. 
Q. Ever go in there? A. Occasionally. 
Q. You never examined the trunks, I suppose? A. No, 
sir; I never examined them. When an inmate comes in, her 
trunk is never examined, unless she has soiled clothes in it, and 
then she takes them out herself; and, as a general thing, she 
keeps the key to her trunk, unless she asks the matron of the 
baggage-room to take charge of it. 
Q. And unless the matron of the baggage-room asks her for 
it? A. Unless she asks the matron of the baggage-room to 
take care of the key for her. 
Q. Suppose the matron of the baggage-room should ask her 
for the kej’, what would happen then? A. I don’t know that 
it ever happened that way ; that the matron ever asked for the 
key. 
Q. You don’t know? A. No ; I don’t think she did. 
Q. You would expect it to be given up, wouldn’t you, if you 
asked for it? A. I don’t know as it would. 
Q. Why not? A. I don’t think she would want the charge 
of it. 
Q. But, suppose she did for any purpose, wouldn’t it be 
given up? A. I don’t know whether it would be or not. 
Q. Captain Marsh appointed you matron instead of his wife, 
last January? A. I was appointed last January. 
Q. What? A. This last January. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2039 
Q. The first of January; and she was appointed honorary 
matron, wasn’t she? A. Yes, sir. « 
Q. Did you ever hear of illegitimate children being born 
there, of people who had been there, so they must have been 
begotten there? A. I think I heard of one. 
Q. Whose was that? A. I could not tell you the woman’s 
name ; she was an insane woman. 
Q. You heard of the Reed case, didn’t you? A. I did. 
Q. Did you hear of the Charlotte Anderson case ? A. Is 
that the insane woman? 
Q. That is the insane woman. A. Yes. 
Q. Did you know Mrs. Crowell there? A. Who? 
Q. Mrs. Crowell. A. I never knew Mrs. Crowell. 
Q. You never knew her? A. Not that I know of. 
Q. Did you know Mrs. Raleigh there? A. Mrs. Raleigh? 
Q. Yes. A. I never knew anyone there of that name that 
I remember. 
Q. Do you know Mrs. Rowell ? A. Mrs. Rowell ? 
Q. Yes. A. There was a Mrs. Rowell, a nurse, in the 
hospital — the female hospital. 
Q. When was she there last? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. As near as you can? A. I could not tell you what year 
she was there. 
Q. What? A. I could not tell you what year she was 
there. 
Q. When did you last hear of her? A. I don’t know that 
I have heard of her since she left the institution. 
Q. Can you tell me about when that was? A. No, sir; I 
could not tell you. 
Q. Haven’t heard her spoken of? A. No, sir. 
Q. Haven’t heard of her death? A. No, sir. 
Q. She is alive for aught you know? Sometimes you were 
short of straw for bedding? A. Sometimes they got out of it; 
yes. 
Q. They got out of straw; and then the other straw would 
get filthy, wouldn’t it? A. I don’t know. 
Q. It would not be fresh? A. It would not be filthy; it 
would be worn up, but not to be filth}". 
Q. It would be worn up? A. If we have a filthy patient 
and the bed is filthy, we usually have it changed right away. 
Q. I understand, you change your bed ; but if the straw was 
left in it till it was worn out it might, possibly, get filthy. Wras 2040 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
the straw left in the beds till it gets worn out, generally? A. 
What do you mean, —that it is all worn up? 
Q. All worn up is a pretty— A. No, sir. 
Q. No? I thought it was all worn up. We will say mostly 
worn up, — was it used till it was mostly worn up? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. About how long would a straw bed-tick last, — the straw 
in a bed-tick last? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. About how long? You have had eleven years’ experi- 
ence. A. It would be owing somewhat to the quality of the 
stiaw they had. 
Q. I understand; what kind did the}' have? A. Some- 
times they have oat straw and sometimes rye. 
Q. Had rye or oat. Then you know more than the doctors 
whom I examined here the other day; you know the difference 
between oat and rye straw. Well, which is the best? A. I 
consider the rye straw the best. 
Q. I should agree with you, madam; how long would the 
rye straw last? A. Well, it would be according to what kind 
of a patient we had to use it. 
Q. Well, about how long? A. It might last one patient, 
— I have seen some patients that would wear one out in less 
than a month, break it all up fine. 
Q. Break it all up fine in less than a month ; and some it 
would last three to six months? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that would be about the rate of changing, I sup- 
pose? Those that broke it up within a month— A. Would 
have their beds changed. 
Q. At the end of the month, when it was broken up? A. 
When the straw got broken up and was not good, we changed 
it. 
Q. And in the month or six months that straw never would 
get dirty? A. No, sir ; it would not. 
Q. What? A. If we had clean patients it would not. 
Q. But if they were not clean patients? A. Well, if we 
had filthy patients we had them changed. 
Q. While you were there first the water-closets were in a 
pretty bad condition, weren’t they, before they got these new 
ones in? A. When I first went there there was no water- 
closets in the house. 
Q. None? A. No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2041 
Q. Then the}" put some in the house without water? A. 
With water ; }’es, sir. 
Q. Didn’t they have some there in the house, mere necessa- 
ries, not water-closets? A. There were water-closets. 
Q. What? A. They were water-closets. 
Q. Didn’t they have some that were not? A. No, sir; 
not to m3' knowledge. 
Q. You never knew that, even? A. No, sir; not in the 
house. 
Q Now, were these bathing tubs put in at all,— was there 
more than one bath-tub before ’7G? A. More than one? 
Q. Down there ; }’es. A. Why ; yes, sir. 
Q. You are sure of that? A. I am. 
Q. Was there more than one there in 1872? A. There 
were four bathing-tubs, I think, in the female department. 
Q. In that one room? A. In that one room. 
Q. IIow many different bathing-rooms were there? A. 
There was a bathing-room for the women’s department, and 
one for the men’s department, and then, for the insane depart- 
ments. 
Q. That made three. A. A bathing-room in the insane 
department. 
Q. I am glad to see you do know about something else 
besides }"Our own ; pardon me, we are getting along nicely. 
Now, when were those put in? A. Which department do you 
mean? 
Q. Those that you have just been last talking about? A. 
In the insane? 
Q. Yes. A. I know nothing about the others, when they 
were put in. 
Q. You don’t? A. No, sir; I don’t know anything about 
when they were put in. 
Q. Yet }'ou are willing to swear they were there? A. I 
would not swear when they w’ere put in, for I know nothing 
about the department. 
Q. No? A. For I never had occasion to go to the insane 
department. 
Q. Never had occasion to go? A. Very seldom, unless I 
went with company, sir. 
Q. What? A. Very seldom I went there. 
Q. Did you go there at all? A. How? 2042 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did }tou go there at all? A. Not unless I went around 
with company, sir. 
Q. Sometimes you went around with company? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And 3tou didn’t go down to the bathing department 
then, I suppose? A. No, sir ; I don’t know as I ever did. 
Q. Except to show compan3r around there ; to show some of 
3rour compan3?? A. No, sir; my companj* I never showed 
around. 
Q. Did 3rou hear at any time of any goods being taken 
awa3'from the almshouse ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never heard of that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did 3rou ever attend the funeral of an inmate there? 
A. Sometimes I have, when the3r have had services in the 
chapel. 
Q. What? A. Sometimes to services in the chapel, Sun- 
da3T afternoons. 
Q. Sunday afternoons when somebod3r was buried from the 
chapel? A. Yes. 
Q. How often did that happen? A. I don’t know how 
often. 
Q. Will you swear three times? A. No, sir; I won’t 
swear how many. 
Q. Do 3tou remember the tailor, the man wrlio was there 
tailor to the establishment for a good man3T 3’ears ? A. What 
name ? 
Mr. Brown. Joseph Parks. 
Q. Joseph Parks. A. I think that I remember him ; 3*es, 
sir. 
Q. He had been long an inmate ? A. I could not tell how 
long. 
Q. I know; but quite a respectable man, wasn’t he? A. 
Yes. 
Q. Were 3*011 at his funeral? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do 3*ou know whether he had one? A. I could not 
tell 3tou ; I knew nothing about it. 
Q. Did 3*ou ever hear about having blocks of wood in the 
coffin buried? A. No, sir ; I never did. 
Q. Never heard of that? A. I never heard of it till the 
present time. 
Q. Why do 3*ou laugh? It seems to be a very jovial matter 
with 3*ou — biuying blocks of wood in a coffin. Wh3* do you 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2043 
laugh? I want to know. A. Well, I never heard of it until 
within a few weeks. 
Q. Well, that was one of the things that was kept from you. 
You said there wex*e a great many things kept from you. That 
was so, was it not? How mueh inerease of salary did you get 
when you were made matron? A. I have twenty-five dollars 
a month. 
Q. How mueh increase of did you get when you were 
made matron? A. Only four dollars increase. I had twenty- 
one dollars when I was there before. 
Q. Have 3*011 the keys of the baggage-room? A. No, sir. 
Q. Who is the matron of the baggage-rom ? A. Miss 
Locke. 
Q. Do you know what her age is? A. I could not tell 
you. 
Q. Can you give me an approximation? A. No, sir; I 
don’t know her age. 
Q. You knew her when she had her father and her mother? 
A. Yes, sir, 
Q. Did you know her when she went to school at Lowell? 
Did you know the fact of her going to school at Lowell? A. 
I think I heard them say that she went to school at Lowell. 
Q. I mean while she was going to school ? A. I could not 
tell you. I know she was living in Lowell. 
Q. How soon after that before she became matron ? A. I 
could not tell you. 
Q. Within four months? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Can’t tell me anything about it? A. No, sir ; I could 
not. 
Q. Well, how long did she live at the asylum before she 
went to school at Lowell; was she born there? A. She never 
was there at the asylum. 
Q. Not with her father and mother? A. No, sir. 
Q. When she came she came to be matron? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I won’t trouble you any longer. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I want to ask a single question. Did 
3'ou ever hear that the Marsh family appropriated the inmates’ 
clothing to their own use, prior to this investigation? A. I 
might have heard such a report. 
Gov. Butler. That was the report she was talking about, 
and she could not tell when within nine years. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You spoke about the clothing being 2044 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
cut up, and I wanted to know whether it was cut up in the gen- 
eral sewing-room of the institution? 
Gov. Butler. She said she knew nothing about the sewing- 
room. 
The Witness. No, sir ; I never knew anything about it. 
Q. Did you ever visit that department presided over by Mrs. 
Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. ? A. Occasionally. 
Q. That was the sewing-room I refer to. And that room 
was used, — the persons employed in that room were employed 
in remodelling and cutting up inmates’ clothes? 
Gov. Butler. If she knows. 
Q. Do you know? A. I supposed that was where — 
Q. Tell us what you know? A. The new clothing Avas 
made there ; dresses and underclothing. 
Q. Whether you had any knowledge that old clothing was 
remodelled in any way? 
Gov. Butler. That is what I want to know. 
The Witness. No, sir ; I don’t know ; I could not tell you. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) What year was it, Mrs. Sanborn, 
that you had charge of the infants ? A. I could not tell you, 
but I think it was somewhere in 1873 —some part of 1873 and 
1874. 
Q. 1873 and 1874? A. I think so. 
Q. To what did you attribute the great mortalit}r among the 
infants? A. Well, a great part of them, I should think, came 
there diseased. 
Q. What part? A. I could not tell 3*011 what part, but 
there was a great part of them. 
Q. The governor suggested here that they lived as long as 
you would al ow them. Do 3*ou know of anjdiody, 3*011 or any- 
body else, doing anything to take the lives of those infants? 
A. No, sir; I never did. 
Q. Did 3*011 ever hear of an3* such thing at the institution ? 
A. No, sir ; no, sir. 
Q. Did you know EA*a Bowen? A. I did not. 
Q. Did 3*011 ever hear at the institution any-tiling about an 
attempt to kill her? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or her child ? A. No, sir. 
The Chairman. That is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) One moment: I want to ask you a 
question. What do you mean by disease, madam? Do 3-ou 
mean — give me your idea. When 3*011 said they ivere all dis- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2045 
eased — no, no, a large portion of them were diseased, what 
did you mean? A. We should call them syphilitic. 
Q. When you told the chairman that a large portion of them 
were diseased, you meant they were syphilitic? A. I should 
say they were. 
Q. How large a portion of them were syphilitic? A. I 
could not tell you how large a portion. 
Q. About how large? Two-thirds? A. I should judge 
there might be two-thirds. 
Q. Two-thirds syphilitic. And that was the case with all 
the infants that came there ; two-thirds of them were syphilitic 
— the foundlings. And you mean to swear to that, do you? A. 
I could not swear to it. 
Q. That is your opinion? A. That would be my opinion. 
Q. That is your opinion. That is what you meant when 
you answered the chairman in that way. Now, I observe the 
chairman put some stress on the word allow. What did you do 
to prevent their dying? A. To prevent their dying? 
Q. Yes. A. We had a physician there, and he ordered 
their medicines given, and we gave it to them and took care of 
them. 
Q. And in spite of all that the}" all died so far as }Tou know? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I am surprised that disease is so prevalent. 
The record will show a different state of things. 
Testimony of Phebe A. Merrill (sworn). 
Q. What is your full name? A.. Phebe A. Merrill. 
Q. Where do you reside? A. My home is in Lawrence. 
At present I am at Tewksbury. 
Q. How long have you been at Tewksbury? A. Four 
weeks last Thursday. 
Q. You are one of the new appointees ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Had you ever been at Tewksbury before ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When? A. A part of the year 1879, and a part of the 
year 1880. 
Q. What did }'ou do in the }7ear 1879 and ’80? 
Gov. Butler. How large a part of the year? 
The Witness, I went there as supernumerary, to take the 
places of matrons while they went on vacations — a part of 
them — and afterwards I was given a place there. 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 2046 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. IIow long were you there? When did you go therein 
1879. A. I think I went there about the middle of Juh-, 1879, 
and left there the middle of April, 1880. 
Q. And from July, 1879, to April, 1880, you were there 
continuously? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In what department did you serve? Were you in the 
insane department? 
The Witness. I wish to correct a mistake in my testimony. 
Mr. Brown. Correct it, if 3’ou desire to. 
The Witness. It was 1881 instead of 1879 and ’80. 
Q. The other dates are correct? A. The other dates 
are correct. 
Q. In what departments did you serve? A. The first two 
weeks I was in the institution I was in the insane department, 
asylum No. 2. 
Q. Whose place did you take? A. Miss O’Connell’s. 
Q. Afterward whose place did 3*ou take? A. I was after- 
wards taken to No. 20, the children’s ward. 
Q. Was that the foundling ward? A. Yes, sir; it had 
been. 
Q. How long were you there ? A. The remainder of the 
time I was in the institution. 
Q. What was the condition of No. 20, as you call it, at the 
time you were there ? A. In what respect, sir ? 
Q. Well, in any regard. Take the matter of clothing, beds 
and bedding, etc.? A. Everything was perfectly cleanly as 
far as it could be kept with that amount of children. 
Q. What labor was used for keeping the institution clean ? 
A. The floors were swept,- the beds changed, and the children 
washed and cleaned. 
Q. Who was the physician in charge of that department 
when you were there? A. Dr. Pease a part of the time, and 
Dr. Wilkins the rest. 
Q. This Dr. Pease is now the wife of Dr. Abbott? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, while 3'ou were in the institution did 3’ou ever hear 
anything of more than one patient being bathed in the same 
water? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. This was in the foundling ward, No. 20 ; I 
understand she was not in the insane department but a short 
time. 
The Witness. I was there onty two weeks. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2047 
Mr. Brown. That was long enough. It didn’t take two 
weeks to bathe the insane patients. 
Q. Well, what bathing apparatus was there? A. Iron 
bath-tubs. 
Q. Do you recollect how many ? A. I could not give you 
the number. 
Q. More than one? A. Yes, sir; but I don’t remember 
the number. There may be four, or live, or six, I could not say 
which, in the department I was in. 
Q. At what table,—where did 3*011 take 3*our meals? A. 
In the main building of the house, at one of the officers’ tables. 
Q. Now, during the time 3*011 were in the institution, did 3'ou 
ever hear an3r complaints from the inmates, or an3*body else, 
that the inmates’ clothing was taken and appropriated so that 
they could not get them? A. No, sir; 1 did not. 
Q. During the time 3-011 were there did 3*011 know of the 
existence of the serving-room, over which the wife of Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr., presided? A. Yes, sir; I knew there was a 
sewing-room, I didn’t know who presided over it. 
Q. You didn’t know who had charge of it? A. No. 
Q. Were you ever there? A. Well, I was there the first 
time ; I don’t think I was there more than that. 
Q. Did you see Mrs. Marsh, the 3*ounger, there? A. No 
sir. 
Gov. Butler. That accords with our evidence. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; 3’our people sa>r she was not there, and I 
say there was no occasion for her being there, because she was 
not emplo3*ed. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. A word or two, madam. I want to ask 3*ou if I under- 
stand you. You said that this room, No. 20, or ward No. 20, 
whatever 3*ou call it, was clean, so far as it could be kept — the 
beds and everything were kept clean so far as they could be 
with regard to the amount of clothing they had? A. No, sir ; 
I didn’t say so. 
Q. I so understood you? A. No, sir; I said with the chil- 
dren we had ; with what we had to get along with — that is, the 
children. You cannot keep a child alwa}'s clean. 
Q. Can’t you? A. No, sir. They cannot be always 
clean — those children we have there could not. 
Q. Are you a married woman? A. I have been, sir. 2048 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. When? A. I was married in 1855. 
Q. Any children? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many? A. Two. 
Q. What was your business in Lawrence at the time you were 
sent to take charge of this place? A. I had been tending in 
a store part of the time. 
Q. During the other time ? A. Keeping house. 
Q. And you were brought there to take the place of Miss 
O’Connell, while she went off on a vacation? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Were you put in sole charge? A. No, sir. 
Q. Who was the nurse over you? A. Mr. and Mrs. Bean. 
Q. Where are they ? A. The}' are there at the present 
time, sir. 
Q. They were the head nurses, and you—? A. I was one 
of the attendants. 
Q. You were there as an attendant. Is Mr. or Mrs. Bean 
here, do you know? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Have they been down here, to your knowledge, within 
the last four weeks? A. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. They 
may have been here. 
Q. And you never had anything to do with the insane peo- 
ple, I take it? A. No, sir; not particularly. 
Q. And you were put in as an attendant on the insane, and 
then you were put in — did you have sole charge of this room, 
No. 20? A. No, sir. 
Q. You were simply an attendant there? A. I was there 
to take one of the matrons’ places. There were two matrons 
there, and I took the place of one at a time. 
Q. How many children had you there ? A. I have not the 
numbers. 
Q. Well, about how many ; the average? A. We had from 
35 to 40, and sometimes 45 : but I don’t think they would aver- 
age 40. 
Q. You don’t think it would quite average forty? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. How young were those children ? A. Anywhere from 
a year and a half to ten years old. 
Q. Were there any under a year and a half? A. I don’t 
think there were, with one exception ; we had one little one 
brought there eleven months old. 
Q. None under eleven months. Were there any children 
born there while you were there ? A. No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2049 
Q. None whatever ; and you had charge of the room where 
all the children were? A. They were divided up, the rooms 
were, during the day. I did night work theit; part of the time. 
Q. Then they were under your charge? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And if there were any younger children there than those 
in the establishment,—ever had been born there,—younger than 
eleven months, they had died off; for some reason, they had 
gone? A. That house, the ward where I was, was not used 
for that purpose. 
Q. For the purpose of keeping children? A. For the pur- 
pose of keeping younger children. 
Q. You were not there where the younger children were. 
Was there another ward where the younger children were? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. How many were there? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Ever in it? A. I have been through it. 
Q. Frequently? A. .Not very. 
Q. Did you attend to bathing the insane patients at all? A. 
Twice while I was there ; in the two weeks I was there they 
were bathed every week. 
Q. Now, these were children, with the exception of one 
under a year old, a year and a half old and upwards? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Any difficulty in keeping that class of children clean? 
A. Well, I think there was, sir, considerable. 
Q. Were they different from any other children? A. I 
don’t know as they were different from other children taken as 
those were, with so many different dispositions and different — 
Q. Precisely so ; the}* had different dispositions? A. They 
were different to get along with from other children. 
Q. They were from a year and a half to two years and up- 
wards? A. They had not been taken care of before they 
came there, and of course it would take considerable time to 
teach them to be neat and orderly. 
Q. Any of them come there while you w'ere there? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. How man}* ? A. I could not tell you ; they were com- 
ing and going. 
Q. More than one or two? A. More than one or two come 
while I was there ? 
Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, you were there—. How many people were there 2050 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr* 
in that establishment that know more about it than you do? A. 
In what establishment? 
Q. In the whole. A. In the whole institution ? 
Q. Yes ; that knew more about it than you do? A. There 
are some there that ought to know a good deal more. 
Q. Do you think you know more than the}r? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, you were brought here, having been there a short 
time, when there are large numbers that ought to know more 
than you, for the3r have been there a good deal longer? A. I 
suppose people that have been there year after year know more 
about it than I do. 
Gov. Butler. 1 certainly should think so myself; 1 agree 
perfectly; therefore I want to know why you were brought 
here. 
Mr. Brown. Because she was one of the new appointees. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I am not responsible for that. 
Mr. Brown. I thought you were. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; not b}’ an}’ means. 
The Chairman. Let us not go into that now. 
Gov. Butler. Not at all. And I would not bring anybody 
on that account; because from head to toe, as the thing is 
managed now, I am not satisfied with it, and shall in all proper 
manifest m}T dissatisfaction with it. Don’t make an}T 
mistake about that. 
Testimony of Frederick Gygault (sworn). 
Q. What is your full name? A. Frederick Gigault. 
Q. And where do you reside ? A. I reside at-Lowell. 
Q. How long have you resided there? A. Nearly seven 
years. 
Q. And what is your office in the church? A. lain Oblate 
Father, belonging to the religious society of Lowell. 
Q. Of the Catholic Church? A. Of the Catholic Church. 
Q. Now, for how many years have you been in the habit of 
visiting this almshouse at Tewksbury? A. Six 3ears regu- 
larly, and a few times before. 
Q. Now, during the first 3’ear, when you went a few times, 
how man}r times did }Tou go? A. I think about three or four 
times. 
Q. During the last six years how frequently have }Tou beeD 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2051 
there? A. Well, I have been regularly about three times a 
week. 
Q. For what purpose have you been there? A. I have 
been there for sick calls, for funeral services, and for holding 
the religious service on Sunday, — the last Sunday in the 
month. 
Q. That is to say, you performed religious services there in 
the chapel on the last Sunday in each month? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The services of your church ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. To those who desired to attend? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And three times a week, aside from that, did you go 
there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that the last week in the month you would be there 
four times? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, how frequently do you go there to perform the 
funeral rites over the dead? A. Well, it depends on the 
circumstances ; but as 1 go three times a week I thought I 
could meet all the cases for funeral services, and so 1 used to 
go on the same occasion for ministerial duties and for funeral 
' services, at the same time. 
Gov. Butler. And he took the same occasion to do both, I 
suppose. 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
,Q. That is to say, it was convenient for you to go there 
three times a week. And did the authorities so arrange that 
you, on these occasions, could perform the funeral service over 
the dead of your church? A. Yes, sir. Sometimes they 
would call for me when I would be needed at some other time, 
— send a messenger. 
Q. And you were called upon in addition to that, sometimes? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Father Gigault, did it ever come to your knowledge 
that an}7 person of your faith was buried without any funeral 
rites, or without notice to-you, during these six years? A. I 
have performed religious services only since 1879. In that 
year I began. Before that there was no funeral service ; but I 
don’t remember of any case that anybody was buried without 
any funeral service, of those that belonged to my church. 
Q. Now, when you say that since 1879 there have been 
funeral services, and before that you don’t recollect that any 
one was buried without some service, what distinction do you 
intend to make ? 2052 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. He says before that there was no funeral 
service. 
Mr. Brown. There were other services. 
Q. Now, I want to know what distinction you make between 
those before 1879 and those siuce? A. 1 never performed any 
before 1879 ; there was none. 
Q. Was there anybody else who performed the services of 
your church? A. Not for the Catholic people. 
Q. Was there any other service? A. I don’t know of 
any. 
Q. Since 1879, have you had any occasion to know that one 
of your faith was buried without funeral services? A. I don’t 
know ; I don’t think so. 
Q. Now, there are clergymen of other denominations who 
visit the institution, are there not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know of what denomination they are? A. L 
think—I don’t know exactly—there has been sometime, I think, 
that the Baptist minister has been there ; and the Episcopalian 
and the Congregationalist minister, too, used to go there. 
Q. Now, is not this the fact, that the clergymen of the 
different denominations sort of divide up the time in each 
month,—if you know anything about it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You have the last Sunday of the month, and some one 
of the others have services upon the other Sundays of the 
month? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, sir, whenever you have been to Tewksbury, have 
you had occasion to know that funeral services were performed 
over the dead there by clergymen of other denominations? A. 
Yes, sir, I have heard of it, and I saw it once or twice myself. 
Q. Now, these funeral services were performed in what is 
called the chapel? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And they were such services as were usually performed 
in your church ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, during the seven years you have visited, 1 sup- 
pose, every part of that institution, have you not? A. Well, 
I think so. 
Q. You have been in the insane department ? A. I have 
been there ; yes, I have been there, — not in every room, but 
in the building, — I have been there at different times. 
Q. And you have had free access for the purpose of consult- 
ing with those people in regard to spiritual matters? A. Yes, 
sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2053 
Gov. Butler. What! Insane people? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Oh, yes. 
Q. Well, now, have you performed at the institution the 
baptismal rites ? A. Yes, sir ; I did. 
Q. And to what extent? A. About one hundred baptisms 
every year. Some years I had more. About one hundred 
native one year. When there were no foundlings I didn’t have so 
many. At the time the foundlings were there I would have 
more.- 
Q. Did you perform funeral ceremonies or rites over found- 
lings who died? A. Yes, sir; I did. 
Q. Could you tell how mamr ? A. I could not tell exactty. 
The foundlings were received in the institution only the three 
first 3~ears that I was there, I think, 1877, 1878, and 1879. 
They were received before ; but since, I think, about 1879, they 
didn’t receive them ; about the end of the year, if I am not mis- 
taken, but I am not quite sure about it. 
Q. Now, Father Gigault, did you ever know of a case where 
a child, whose parents were of the Catholic faith, and desired to 
have the child baptized according to the rights of the church, 
where that baptism didn’t take place at that institution? A. I 
don’t know of any case. 
Q. Now, take the hospital department, both men and women ; 
did you visit those departments frequently ? A. I used to visit 
the hospitals regularly three times a week, and the other depart- 
ments only occasionally, — once a month, — when I would be 
wanted there, or when I thought I ought to go. 
Q. And I suppose you have been through the institution 
many times? You have been to the institution many times 
when our approach was not announced? A. At different 
times. 
Q. How did you usually go from Lowell to Tewksbury? A. 
the Boston & Lowell Railroad, or by the Boston & Maine. 
Q. You walked up from the depot? A. Well, the team of 
the institution would come to the station, and I would go b3T the 
team generally. 
Q. Was it known what you were to be there? A. It 
was generally" known. 
Q. Did you go there many times when it was not known 
that 3rou were to be there? A. In the first years, I used to 
go pretty often when it was not known. 
Q. Now, during all your visits to Tewksbury, in all its 2054 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
various departments, sane and insane, have you ever had occa- 
sion to call the attention of any officer of the institution to any 
uncleanliness which you have discovered there? A. Well, I 
made it always a point not to look at the temporal administra- 
tion of the house, because going there only for my religious 
ministrations I thought it would not be convenient. It would 
not be right for me to go with a scrutinizing spirit; so I didn’t 
see anything that I would find faulty in that-regard, and I had 
no occasion to say anything. 
Q. That is to say, you didn’t consider it your business. 
You now recollect that you don’t remember observing anything 
that you cared to find fault with? A. I don’t think I w’ould 
remark anything. 
Q. Well, now, I suppose you talked with a great many sick 
people? A. A great many, sir. 
Q. Now, Father Gigault, I want you to state fully and 
frankly, if you have anything to say, what y ou saw, and in 
what regard you think that institution could be improved in its 
hospital or any other department, so that the inmates could be 
made more comfortable, and their surroundings more pleasant 
and happy. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I don’t think you have shown that the 
Father is an expert in these things. 
Mr. Brown. 1 don’t think it requires an expert to tell how 
somebody else might be made happy. 
Gov. Butler. If it depends upon their physical condition, 
in regard to health. 
Mr. Brown. Oh, no ; that is a matter of common knowledge. 
Gov. Butler. I won’t interpose any objection, because 1 
want to ask the Father some questions. 
The Witness. Well, 1 would not like to give any opinion 
about that matter, because 1 always made it a rule not to talk 
about the administration of the house there, because I liked to 
be limited only to spiritual administration. 
Q. Well, I will put it to you in this way: You have had a 
great many opportunities of seeing people there and talking 
with them, and I will take it in the cases of those who died, to 
whose last hours you administered. What do you now recol- 
lect, in any case, would have made the patient more comfort- 
able? A. Well, I never made it a point to form any judgment 
about that, because I thought I should not take it as belonging 
to my duty, and I would not like to interfere with anything in 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2055 
the administration of the house ; so I didn’t form any judgment 
on that point, nor have any intention to form any. 
Q. And you don’t like to express any opinion about it? A. 
1 don’t like to express any opinion in that regard, because I 
think I am not qualified for it. 
Gov. Butler. The Father differs from you. 
Mr. Brown. He is more modest than I. 
Gov. Butler. I. didn’t say what the difference was. 
Q. I suppose you heard complaints sometimes? A. Not 
many. I should say I don’t remember any serious complaints. 
I am not in the habit- of listening to complaints. Any com- 
plaint, I think, should go to the proper authorities. I would 
not go there only for these duties. 
Q. But I suppose that when you met a new person, in the 
hospital, for instance, that person would have no means of 
knowing that you were not in the habit of listening to com- 
plaints, and so they might make a complaint to 30U? A. 
Well, I said publicly, so that they would know, that I would not 
listen, so that, perhaps, when I came they would know it. 
Gov. Butler. I think you will find that to be the rule of the 
church. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I have no doubt it is. The rule of the 
church is that every man should be reasonabty contented with his 
situation. 
Gov. Butler. No; that is not the rule. The rule of the 
church is that never interfere with temporal affairs. 
Mr. Brown. That is very true. But they advise people to 
be decently satisfied with their situation. 
Gov. Butler. And the situation would be very bad before 
their church priests would make complaint. 
Q. You have had some experience in the management of 
foundlings in foundling institutions, have you not? A. I have 
heard a good deal about it, but my experience is only what I 
have seen at Tewksbury, and what I have heard from different 
persons connected with other institutions. 
Q. Now, to what institution do you refer? A. Well, the 
institution at Montreal— because I came from that place — the 
foundling institution. 
Q. What was the name of that institution ; the Gray Nuns? 
Is it kept by the Gray Nuns? A. Well, I don’t know very 
much about it; I have heard about it at different times, that is 
all. 2056 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Do you recollect the name of it? A. I cannot tell ex- 
actly. 
Q. I suppose you saw many of the foundlings that came to 
Tewksbury when the}7 first arrived? A. I saw them every 
week. I used to baptize the foundlings. About every visit in 
the week I used to baptize them. 
Q. And I suppose many of them had been there but a short 
time when you baptized them? A. Some had been just re- 
ceived ; some others had been there a few days. 
Q. Do you recollect in regard to the state of health of any 
of those you baptized? A. I saw that some of them were in 
a dying state, very low, and could not live, from their appear- 
ance. I would judge that when I was there, and experience 
proved it to be true. 
Gov. Butler. That, 1 suppose, was the reason for baptism* 
Q. Now, do you recollect any that you baptized, in a dying 
condition, that had only been a short time in the hospital? A. 
Well, it is so many years ago, I cannot recollect exactly, but I 
think so. I am not quite sure. The}’ hadn’t been very long in 
the house, any way. I don’t know whether they had just been 
received or not. 
Q. Well, now, is there any suggestion. Father Gigault, that 
you would like to make in regard to the management of the in- 
stitution, so as to give you better facilities for performing your 
duties as a clergyman? A. Well, I so named, in the insane 
department, that perhaps I could do more good than I have 
done ; that is the only place where I would think, from what I 
have heard, and from what I think and know, that there could 
be soipe improvement. 
Q. Now, what improvement do you suggest there? A. 
Well, I think that as there are some of those people that get 
their trouble more from the heart, exactly, than from the head, 
if there could be more persons there that would communicate 
more intimately with them, it would do them good from a relig- 
ious point of view than from a physical point of view. They are 
very well taken care of, I think, for all other purposes ; but I 
think if there were some Catholic ladies among the nurses, this 
would improve in some way ; they would do more good, some 
of them. That is my impression. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2057 
Q. Father Gigault, from whom, — taking the cases of these 
foundlings, wh) would call upon you to baptize them? The}'' 
hadn’t an}’ parents of course. A. Well, I was called by the 
attendant of the foundlings, generally. I was told that there 
were such and such children to be baptized. 
Q. Well, how did you know? I suppose you baptized all, 
whether of your faith or not, then ; because, how could you 
tell? A. Well, sometimes the attendants would tell the chil- 
dren from their names, as belonging to Catholic parents, I 
would suppose ; or some other reason of that kind. I did not 
scrutinize the reason. I baptized them when I was asked to. 
Q. I suppose you believe in baptizing all children of what- 
ever faith, if you can be properly permitted to do so? A. I 
believe in baptism, of course. 
Q. And, therefore, sometimes names were given by the 
attendants or superintendents, or whoever they were? A. I 
say sometimes I suppose the names were given by attendants, 
what names should be given. 
Q. Well, if it was a foundling they gave a special name; 
or sometimes they had a name written on a piece of paper? A. 
I don’t know. 
Q. I believe, according to your form, you name the children 
when you baptize them. Somebody gave you a name on a piece 
of paper; was that it? A. Well, I don’t recollect exactly; 
I suppose it was done that way. 
Q. And you caused it to be known, as a part of your duty, 
that you didn’t interfere with the conduct of the institution in 
any way. You came only to look after the religious condition 
of those that you went to minister to? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you, as a rule, only ministered to those who were 
in the last stages? A. I administered — 
Q. The last stages of life? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Preparing for death. And when you talked with them 
you talked about their hopes for the future rather than about 
what had happened in the past? A. Yes, sir; I did. 
Q. Now, when you performed funerals there, did you receive 
any compensation? A. I did. 
Q. From whom ; from the institution or from the parents ? 
A. From the institution. 
Q. And did you receive compensation for your weekly 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 2058 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
visits and your monthly services? A. For my monthly ser- 
vices, I did. 
Q. And for your weekly visits? A. I did not. 
Q. The weekly visits were made for the proper ministrations 
of your office to the sick and the dying? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What was the compensation for the Sunday services ? A. 
Five dollars. 
Q. That is what I find they charge, — at that rate per week. 
And at that burial service were you called by the parents? 
Did they come for you to Lowell, — parents or friends, brothers 
or sisters? A. I was not called by anybody. It was only by 
a rule of the institution that every one was buried according to 
his religious belief. 
Q. According to their belief they were buried? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Have you any memorandum or record of the number of 
children you attended ? A. I did keep a memorandum; yes, 
I have it. 
Q. What? A. I did. 
Q. Have you got it? A. Well, I have got it. I didn’t 
bring it with me. I took some notes before I left. 
Q. Have you got that memorandum at home ? A. I have 
it, but in poor form. 
Q. Well, it is good enough for our purpose. A. I used to 
give to the institution a list of all the funeral services that I 
performed. I used to give it every month, or every two 
months. 
Gov. Botler. Every two months you gave it. So that they 
have a record somewhere, or ought to have, of the numoer of 
funeral services that you had performed. And you have that; 
and they have not produced any such list here ; and, therefore, 
I shall have to ask you to bring to me your list on Monday 
when you come down. Bring your list of all that you have, so 
that we may have it, to make such comparison. 
Q. Now, Father, when you performed these funeral services 
as a rule were their friends there? A. The}7 were not there 
generally.. In some instances they were there. 
Q. But as a rule they were not. And you understood you 
were performing services over everybody that died there who 
Avas supposed to be of your faith? A. Yes, Governor. 
Q. And you went op from 1879 up to now. Now, then. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2059 
whenever anybody died of your faith they were buried, and you 
were called upon to perform the last rites ? A. I did. 
Q. You would have been a good deal shocked to know that 
a great many were sent off' to be dissected, and you didn’t per- 
form the funeral service, wouldn’t you? You would have been 
shocked if that fact had been brought to. your knowledge ? A. 
Well, I knew it was necessaiy in some cases, and it was the rule 
of the State, and so I was not exactly shocked by it. 
Q. But I say if you were performing funeral services ? A. 
Well, I did perform funeral services over all the bodies, I think. 
Q. But suppose you had ascertained then and there, Doctor, 
as we have ascertained here, so far as the evidence goes, that 
you were performing the service over a coffin filled with pieces 
of wood ; you would have stopped pretty quickly, wouldn’t you? 
A. If I would know it, of course I would not do it. 
Q. Of course, I don’t suppose you would. Now, then, 
your idea was — I think I have got it clear, if I haven’t you will 
correct me, — that 3rou were called upon — you were always 
called upon by the authorities of the institution to come down 
there — you were called upon to come down there and perform 
funeral services whenever anybody of your religious faith died ? 
A. I think I was always called. 
Q. That is what you understood to be the fact? A. Yes, 
Governor. 
Q. And you understood the same in regard to other clergy- 
men, that when people of their religious faith died they were 
called upon, as you were, to perform funeral services over persons 
of their faith? A. Well, I didn’t pay attention to that; of 
course I thought it was so. 
Q. You understood it so, and you went and gave your ser- 
vices on that understanding gratuitously to the State and to 
your people. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you have been going on then for four years with the 
understanding that whenever anybody of the Catholic faith died 
at that institution you were sent for, and you performed relig- 
ious services— ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And they were buried. And, generally, when those were 
buried the}' were those to whom you had administered extreme 
unction on the death-bed? A. Generally; some cases of sud- 
den death. 
Q. Well, then, that could not be ; then the way this matter 
went on was this : you, in the ministrations of your church, went 2060 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
down there to Tewksbury, and a man was sick, evidently his last 
sickness, about dying ; you would minister extreme unction — 
man or woman — and then you would be sent for to perform the 
duties of burial over that dead person? A. Well, as I came 
regularly three times a week they didn’t send for me except — 
Q. Either you would do it regularly, or else come on pur- 
pose, if necessary? A. Yes, Governor. 
Q. How large a proportion of the people there, do you 
think, were of your faith? A. Well, I think about four-fifths ; 
I cannot tell exactly ; two-thirds or four-fifths. 
Q. Well, is it the habit,—is it not the habit among the lower 
classes of foreigners, and perhaps some of the highest in some 
cases, to have religious emblems upon their persons, such as 
crosses, etc? A. They used to have it. 
Q. What? A. Yes, Governor; sometimes they would 
have something of this sort. 
Q. And sometimes very elaborate, and they sometimes 
showed that to the priest? A. They did. 
Q. As evidence of their religious faith. Sometimes they 
are put upon the arm, sometimes upon the breast.— everywhere 
except the face ; didn’t tattoo their faces. Now, Doctor,— 
I don’t know' but you are a doctor, a D.D.— now, Father, you had 
occasion to see a good many people at Lowell that were dis- 
eased and v'anted to go somewrhere. Or rather, before I go to 
that— [producing a piece of skin with a representation of the 
crucifixion and certain words upon it] — perhaps 3rou may recol- 
lect that man, that cross ; won’t you look at it? A. I knew 
him. 
Q. Did you know him? A. Of course. 
Gov. Butler. Now, if you will give me the register — he 
tattooed it on him and there is no doubt about him — his name 
is on the register, and in 1879 he died. 
Q,. You remember that? A. I never sawr that before. 
Q. Are 3*011 sure? A. I don’t remember. 
Mr. Brown. This is C. T. Eklund. Are 3'ou going to offer 
it in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. , 
Mr. Brown. The witness says he never saw' it before. 
Gov. Butler. I asked him if he sawr things of this sort. 
Mr. Brown. He said he had ; but when you asked him if he 
ever saw this before, he said no. 
Gov. Butler, Now, I propose to follow it, Now, 1 propose 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2061 
to begin here, and I think I can call it to the witness’ mind. 
He never saw this before, but whether he saw it on the man’s 
breast like that is another question which I am going to ask him 
when I can get his name on the register. No other man, T trust, 
ever saw anything like that before. 
The Chairman. This is offered in evidence? 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I am going to offer it in evidence. 
The Chairman. What do you claim it is? 
Gov. Butler. It is a piece of skin with a tattoo of the 
cross, with the mark of the cross, an etching of the cross in 
India ink, on the body, on the breast of a man who was an in- 
mate at Tewksbury, and who I am going to trace,— his skin,— 
until I bring it here. 
The Chairman. I understand you are going to trace this to 
Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; I am going to trace this in a mo- 
ment, because I am going to get the registry of this very man. 
He took the precaution to put his name and the time of birth on 
his breast under his cross. 
The Chairman. For what purpose is this offered? I don’t 
quite understand it yet. 
Gov. Butler. Well, there are two or three purposes. In 
the first place, I am going to show that while this man made the 
funeral rites over this body, that this body was really being ctit 
up in Harvard College, and skinned ; and I have got a piece of 
the skin. And it has the name of Tewksbury upon it — the 
name under which he was registered at Tewksbury. Therefore 
I think I shall stop the doubts of those doubting Thomases who 
doubt whether any portion of the paupers at Tewksbury were 
skinned, and their skins used. 
The Chairman. Do you trace it back to the management at 
Tewksbury? 
Gov. Butler. To the management; yes, sir. My proposi- 
tion is this: Let us have no mistake about it. They allowed 
this reverend clergyman, a Father of the Catholic church — that 
man being a Catholic, with the Saviour on the cross etched on 
the skin of his breast — that they allowed this man to make the 
mummery — for it was so — of a funeral service over that man, 
when that man was %ent to Harvard College — medical school 
— and there that piece of skin was taken out, with his name 
upon it corresponding to the register, so that there will be no 
doubt about it. 2062 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
The Chaikman. We have had pieces of human skin, or what 
purported to be human skin, put in here on two or three occa- 
sions ; but so far as I recollect, there has been no evidence con- 
necting Tewksbury with it. Now if you propose to show here 
that the management at Tewksbury has been connected with 
this, it seems to me to be competent. Do I understand your 
Excellency proposes to show that? 
Gov. Butlek. I have stated with great particularity my pur- 
pose. What I propose to prove is this : I have got so far as to 
get this Father, who swears that he supposed that upon all per- 
sons of his faith he was called by the institution to perform the 
last sad rites over their remains. I will show by the register 
that this man was in Tewksbury: that he died in Tewksbury, 
and he died on a certain day. I then propose to show that a 
short time after he was dead, and buried with funeral rites, that 
he was found in Harvard, that piece of human skin was taken 
from his breast with the etching of the crucifixion on it, and 
produce it here by the man who took it; and L call that con- 
necting it with the management. And I am sorry that the rec- 
ollection of the chairman is so short on this question of connec- 
tion. We have had many pieces of human skin—'five different 
pieces—and, we have shown, got at Harvard College, and taken 
from there and tanned and made into shoes, — except that I ar- 
rested the performance. And then it is in evidence that the 
largest proportion —and, so far as we hear, substantially all of 
the bodies — came from Tewksbuiy, where the}' were in trust 
that the remains should be decently buried after death there. 
And it is not claimed up to this time that anything was done to 
carry out that portion of the law. 
The Chairman. I understood Dr. Porter to say that they 
had bodies from different places, and he gave the number — 
seventeen, I think, in one }rear. 
Gov. Butler. Precisely. Seventeen out of one hundred 
and thirty odd. Now, what doubt, upon a case of circumstantial 
evidence, that they only skinned some of the seventeen, and left 
the others of the one hundred and thirty unskinned. 
The Chairman. You are going to argue that it is probable 
that some of these pieces of skin came from Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. Not only probable, bqt nobody whose mind 
is not blinded — 
The Chairman. No matter about that, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. — by prejudice will doubt it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2063 
The Chairman. No matter about that, Governor. I don’t 
understand — and if I am wrong the committee will correct me 
— that there is any evidence, what we call a scrap of evidence, 
that anybody from Tewksbury has ever been skinned. Now, 
if any member of the committee understands differently, I de- 
sire to know it. 
Mr. Putney. I suppose the governor — 
Gov. Butler. I intend to clinch it. I knew I had got some 
doubting Thomases. 
The Chairman. Yes ; you have got them. 
Gov. Butler. And I mean to hold them so they can’t 
wiggle. [Applause.] 
The Chairman. There is one thing we can do; we will 
clear this hall. 
Gov. Butler. I certainly have no objection. 
The Chairman. For one, if any more human skin is to be 
put into this case, I desire to have it distinctly understood that 
Tewksbury is to be connected with it. 
Gov. Butler. I think I will connect this one. I have no 
doubt I have connected the last. Upon that I appeal to the 
tribunal. 
The Chairman. You appeal to the committee. Have you 
anything to say, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. I was simply going to say this, Mr. Chairman: 
His Excellency offers this evidence, as I understand it, on the 
ground — and if I do not state it correctly I wish he would cor- 
rect me, — on the ground that he is going to show, not only 
that this man came from Tewksbury and was subsequently 
skinned somewhere, but that this Father Gigault went through 
what he calls the mummery of performing funeral rites over a 
coffin which contained no body in it. 
Gov. Butler. Probably not; because a body can’t be in 
two places at once. 
Mr. Brown. Well, now, Father Gigault has already said 
that he never would have performed the religious rites over a 
coffin which didn’t contain the body of the deceased if he knew 
it. Therefore, His Excellency cannot get from this witness the 
fact that he performed the funeral rites over this body. He 
must show by somebody else what took place. Now, it is a 
verjr astonishing proposition to my mind, and it strikes me with 
a great deal of force — and if His Excellency intends to ex- 
press an opinion I would like to have it understood — if he 2064 
CHAU IT ABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
claims that the body of a person which the State had a right 
and the authorities had a right to sa}T should be dissected, 
should be deprived of the last religious rites, I would like to 
know that. If that is his proposition it is a very astonishing 
one, and I should like to know it. I cannot see any difficulty 
— it may be because I am remarkably insensible to these 
things — I cannot see any objection, if a body must be dis- 
sected, to having the funeral rites performed over it first. I 
think that is the more decent way to do. I don’t know why a 
man’s body should be deprived of funeral rites because some- 
body is going to dissect it afterwards. So that this proposi- 
tion of His Excellency amounts to nothing whatever. He has 
confessed that he cannot prove anything by this witness. This 
is for mere show ; it is for the country, and nothing else. 
Gov. Butler. May it please the committee, I have proven 
by this witness that every man of his religious faith he was 
called to administer the funeral rites over his body. The fact 
that that man bore that picture of the crucifixtion tattooed on 
his breast, settles the question in my mind, and in the mind of 
any unprejudiced person, that he was of that religious faith. 
Now, then, having proved that much on the one hand, I pro- 
pose to prove, first by the records in this form — 
Mr. Brown. I object to reading the record. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] Fifty, five aught eight — 
Mr. Brown. Especially as I have had no opportunity to 
examine it. 
Gov. Butler. Examine it to your heart’s content. 
Mr. Brow'n. I always do when I examine at all. 
Gov. Butler. I guess not. You are sometimes very dis- 
contented with them. 
Gov. Butler. We will trace him right through till we get 
him to the funeral. 
Mr. Brown. Which is the one you claim? [Referring to 
the record.] 
Gov. Butler. That is it. [Indicating.] No. 50,080, isn’t 
it? 
Mr. Brown. Let me see th.e register. Is the register [re- 
ferring to register] No. 50,508 — 
Gov. Butler. We have another entry. Here is another 
entry of him, too. 
Mr. Brown. I object to this, now that I have examined, for 
the reason that this shows that the man was sent from Tewks- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2065 
bury to the Bridgewater Workhouse — entry right on the mar- 
gin. “Sent to B. W. II., October 24.” Nothing to do with 
Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butlek. Precisely so. 
Mr. Brown. Unless you show something else. 
Gov. Butler. The difficulty is I cannot do it all at once. 
You insist upon reading the books. I have got the Tewksbury 
record, and I have got “ Echland, Charles J., 62 years old, 
from Stoneham, October 14, 1876, Sweden. See 13, M. H. 
Records.” 
Mr. Brown. Beg your pardon. This [the skin] is C. T. 
and not C. J. 
Gov. Butler. I am not responsible for that. 
Mr. Brown. Not only that; this man was born in 1820, 
and 3'our man was not born in that year. 
Gov. Butler. We will see about that. You are now upon 
the value of my evidence, and not upon its competency. [Read- 
ing.] “Echland, C. J., 64 journal folio, July 10, 1878; 62 
(apparently 62 folio), Sweden, 50,508, sent to Bridgewater 
Workhouse; thence here; died August 3, 1879.” Here is the 
new entry. He was first on the records as 50,080, and went to 
the Bridgewater Workhouse. He comes back on the records 
55,140, and he died April 3, 1879. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; and your man was 62 years old in 1876, 
and this man could only .have been 59. 
Gov. Butler. For that you put 62 folio for 62 years: If 
you look into the journal you will find out all about it. I would 
not make up my mind so soon ; because we examine these 
things before we bring them here. And it is Charles J. in this 
book and it is Charles C. in the other. 
Mr. Brown. Well, it is C. T. on the body and no C. J. 
about it. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we will trace him. 
Mr. Brown. It is Charles J. on the register of the institu- 
tion. This man was born in 1820. Your man must have been 
born in a different year. 
Gov. Butler. Why? 
Mr. Brown. If you have read the record correctly. 
Gov. Butler. I have read the record correctly. 
Mr. Brown. That is, if that is what it means; if it don’t, 
you had better interpret it. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I don’t need any interpretation. 2066 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
He tells us here, I think, when he was born. He puts it in 
Swedish — the 7th of March, 1820. 
Mr. Brown. Then he would have been 5G years old when 
he died, instead of 59. 
Gov. Butler. Precisely so. But the 59 is your record. 
Mr. Brown. No ; that is what you have read. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I have read the record of your 
institution, which I have never found correct whenever I could 
trace it at all. Don’t hold it to be my record. I never would 
have had such a record, or such accounts, if I could have helped 
it; and I am helping it as fast as I can. 
The Chairman. There is one question here that seems to 
me to be the test of the admissibility of this evidence. 
Gov. Butler. I was about to state, when I was interrupted, 
sir. I have now shown that this man died in this institution. 
I propose to follow it up and show that this man’s body was 
found in the dissecting-room, and dissected, and this piece taken 
out of him, which is produced here in order to settle the ques- 
tion whether any one of these dead bodies that were in Tewks- 
bury were skinned in Harvard or elsewhere. 
The Chairman. Now, supposing, for the sake of the argu- 
ment, that we concede that every body that went from Tewks- 
bury, a great number to Harvard, supposing we concede that 
every one of them was skinned. 
Gov. Butler. Concede that and I am satisfied. 
The Chairman. Now, if you don’t bring that home to the 
management at Tewksbury, what does it amount to for the pur- 
poses of this hearing? 
Gov. Butler. I will tell you what. It amounts to this: 
Concede that in regard to this one. The management of Tewks- 
bury took him and sold him — got this reverend clergyman to 
administer the last sad rites over an empty coffin — for we have 
shown an empty coffin, where once there was a burial, if the 
witness is to be believed, and he has not been contradicted 
here ; and we produced the coffin ; he designated one, and we 
went and got it up — and we say that that is a desecration of 
the body, of the remains, and a desecration of our holy religion, 
because upon those points all believe alike, and that this was 
done by the management at Tewksbury. The}’ rendered it pos- 
sible to be done. And if they, for a quarter of a century, if it 
is conceded that they have allowed all the sick and the poor, 
whose remains are sacred as yours or mine, whatever may be 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2067 
our opinion about it individually — if they have allowed them 
to go there to be skinned and have made no inquiry, then I say 
that they have broken the law which allowed them only to give 
to the school, with a bond in each case, the right to take a 
bod}r and have it dissected ; and then that they would see to it, 
not that they were thrown as food to the fishes — the remains — 
not that they were packed in a box with every other piece of 
offal on earth and deposited in the dirt somewhere, but they 
should keep these remains after they had served these purposes 
of what is called science, and should have them decently buried. 
And I respectfully submit that you should report that this law 
in regard to what is done with the bodies of the paupers in our 
State charitable institutions — for this may have been done in 
every almshouse in the State, if they construed it the same as 
it has been construed at Tewksbury— that you should report a 
law, and the legislature ought to pass one, by which this prac- 
tice should be changed, unless the religious and moral senti- 
ment of the State will sustain it. If they will, then the 
practice ought to go on ; if they won’t, it ought not to go on. 
And that is what we are here for. Now, then, the difficulty is, 
when I begin to offer evidence the chairman informs me that 
there is not the slightest evidence that any of these bodies 
came from Tewksbury that were skinned. Then when I put in 
a clinching piece of evidence I am asked: Well, shall we let 
this in? Because, supposing they all come from Tewksbury, 
what has it to do with this investigation ? That is the way the 
argument is put back to me. I want to put in the evidence. I 
have now traced this man — presumptive evidence, it was this 
man,—and I will follow it up by showing that he wras traced,— 
that he was dissected — from some charitable institution ; be- 
cause there is no other legal place he can come from. If any- 
body of like name can be found, dying about that time, that 
would throw weight upon the weight of the evidence but not 
upon the competency of it; for if we have had anything that is 
competent since we have been here, that is competent. 
The Chairman. The management of this institution offered 
to admit that bodies in large numbers were sent from Tewksbury 
to the Harvard Medical School. They have not admitted that 
any of them were skinned at the Harvard Medical School with 
their knowledge. Now, it seems to me, that unless your Ex- 
cellency can show that this was carried on*with the knowledge 2068 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
of some one whom we are investigating, that we should not 
admit it. I submit it to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. The chairman leaves out the other branch. I 
can show — 
The Chairman. Your Excellency says you will show. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I have shown that this man had 
funeral rites performed upon him. 
Mr. Brown. 1 don’t understand that to be so. 
The Chaiuman. Before he was sent. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; before he was sent, because they 
were performed there—unless he was sent before they were per- 
formed. 
The Chairman. There is no evidence so far, that I remem- 
ber, in regard to that. 
Gov. Butler. The witness says that the rule of the institu- 
tion was, and that he gave the services of his church gratui- 
tously to go, down there and perform the funeral rites over every 
person of his faith. This man, during the time that he was do- 
ing that, was a man of his faith ; and the funeral rites were per- 
formed over this man upon this testimony. It is testimony 
tending to show, whether it will convince a prejudiced man, 
God knows, I do not; but it will convince an}’ fair man, I think. 
Now, then, you may take it either way }'ou like ; that the mum- 
mery was over the coffin, or, in the language of the counsel, the 
funeral rites ought to be performed over a man before he is dis- 
sected. The priest of the church says : “ Ashes to ashes, dust 
to dust.” I respectfully submit that that form should be altered 
— Ashes to ashes, dust to Harvard College. 
The Chairman. Well, the law is — 
Gov. Butler. The law is settled on that matter; but there 
is no law, never was, and b}’ the blessing of God never will be, 
which permits desecration of the offices of the church, or the 
bodies of men, — for it is desecration — 
The Chaiuman. The law allows bodies to be sent from 
Tewksbury to medical institutions. 
Gov. Butler. I know it does ; I have heard of it more than 
once. 
The Chairman. You have heard of it often enough. 
Gov. Butler. But point out to me a law that provides that a 
body that is to be sent away to be dissected shall have the 
mockery of a funeral performed over it, and I will beg your 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2069 
pardon and the pardon of the managers of this institution, which 
will be the biggest punishment that can be put on me on earth. 
The Chairman. Nobody claims there is airy such law. 
Gov. Butler. That is what we are discussing. 
The Chairman. The question now is upon the admissibility 
of this piece of what you call human skin. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; this piece of written record con- 
necting this man’s body with Tewksbury and 'with Harvard. I 
don’t care whether it is written on that kind of parchment or 
that kind which they keep to themselves. 
The Chairman. The governor has the close, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. I want to say, that there is not even a promise 
but that this piece of skin may have been surreptitiously taken, 
just as we shall find every piece has been. 
The Chairman. What wall the committee do with it? 
Mr. Putney. I would like to inquire of the governor 
whether he has any evidence whatever to show that the reverend 
witness did perform the last rites over the remains of this 
man, or, in other words, over an empty coffin? 
Gov Butler. He swears so ; that he was, as a rule, sent for 
and went, and always went. And I understood the rule to be 
covering this very period. He was sent for, and went to per- 
form the rites over everybody that died. 
Mr. Putney. I take it, then, that it is not doubted but that 
he might have performed the last rites over this man’s remains. 
Gov. Butler. I think very likely it may be so, sir; and 
afterward he was dug up out of the grave. 
Mr. Putney. Excuse me. We have had evidence that after 
funeral services had been held, the bodies have been retained 
waiting a certain time for friends to call for them. It might 
have been so in this instance. 
Gov. Butler. It might have been so, but I will answer that, 
gentlemen of the committee, by sa3’ing, that I propose to prove 
that it was not so retained. 
Mr. Putney. In this particular case ? 
Gov. Butler. In this particular case. Here is a case. I 
wrant to connect the body of Mr. Elwood, if that is his name, 
with two institutions,—Harvard College and Tewksbury. I 
have got the written evidence, which I propose to show that he 
had with him when he died. That is to go to establish his 
identity. And if I can put that written evidence in, showing 
that he had it with him where he could not very well have been 2070 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
different, then I connect the remains of that man with Tewks- 
bury, and whatever is done with them is connected. 
Mr. Gilmore. I understood your Excellency, when you 
started on this matter, to make a statement claiming that the 
funeral services were performed, or supposed to be performed, 
over this body when the body was not there ; that it had been 
previously sent away. 
Gov. Butler. 1 have no doubt, because I find it there. 
Mr. Gilmore. You made the statement as a fact, if I un- 
derstand it. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I will make the statement again, and it 
is this: That over this body, or the coffin, the rite was per- 
formed, and nobody can tell which, with absolute certainty. 
But from the fact that the man’s remains were found in Harvard, 
the presumption would be, and ought to be, that the office of the 
church was not desecrated ; if you insist that they were, any of 
you, gentlemen, I am content to take it in that way. Take it 
which way you please. The simple fact stands here, that this 
man was there, and died. He had extreme unction performed, 
because that was done in all cases. He had funeral services 
after death, because that was done in all cases. And he next 
turns up in Harvard College, and is identified by the legal evi- 
dence I have produced here. 
Mr. Brown. That is just the difficulty ; he is not. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; that is the question* of the weight 
of the evidence. And then I propose to show, in addition to 
this, by the man who took that piece off, and who produced it, 
—produced it where I got it,—that the body came at t hat time, 
corresponding to about the date of the time when this man died. 
And the rest speaks for itself. Now, that is a fair proposition. 
Mr. Brown. I want to call the attention of the committee, 
because His Excellency has criticised my calculations as to 
dates. In the first place, the register in these different entries 
is Charles J. Echland. On the skin it is E-k, if I recollect it. 
Gov. Butler. Yres. 
Mr. Brown. Or E-x. 
Gov. Butler. E-k. 
Mr. Brown. Well, call it E-k. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. Now, this man was born in 1820. 
The Chairman, llow do you know ? 
Mr. Brown. Because it says so, on this skin. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2071 
The Chairman. That is all }'ou know about it? 
Mr. Brown. That is all I know. This is C. T., and not 
C. J. This man whose name appears on this book in three 
places is Charles J. Eckland, and he was sixty-three 3’ears old 
in 1877 ; and it could not have been this man. And any mem- 
ber of the institution who would have taken into it a living 
being with that registry of his birth on it, and then made a 
mistake in this book, must have been stupid beyond measure. 
Ilis Excellency has got a man, if it is not a pig — I have some 
doubt in my mind whether that is not pig skin. 
The Chairman. Or calf. 
Gov. Butler. If you choose to listen to that sort of stuff I 
cannot help it. 
Mr. Brown. It may have been that pig that the committee 
heard about early in the hearing. If this was a human being it 
was an entirely different human being from the one named on 
this register, else that is a lie. This man either carried the lie 
on his breast, — if it came from his breast, — or else it is 
another man than this. Now, I submit that before any such talk 
as this can be had, with the purpose of seriously asking this com- 
mittee to allow this evidence to be admitted, there ought to be 
some identity of the person ; something ought to be shown. If 
that is a J, then let us have somebody interpret it and show that 
it is a J. If this man that had that printed on his bosom made 
a mistake in his age, let 11s have that shown. There are two 
facts wholly inconsistent with His Excellency’s theory that this 
man was the man who was at Tewksbury; to wit, his initials 
are different, and his age is different by a number of years. 
Now, I submit upon that there is not the slightest foundation 
for an offer of this testimony, even if His Excellency’s promise 
were unconditional, — and I don’t understand that it is, — that 
he could connect this with Tewksbury, with the Tewksbury 
management, the officers of this institution. 
Gov. Butleu. Let me look at that'book a moment. 
Mr. Brown. It appears in three places. [Presenting the 
book.] 
Gov. Butler. That is the time he was down to Bridgewater. 
Mr. Brown. That shows how accurate you are. I never 
showed you that before. 
The Chairman. We have no claim that the management at 
Tewksbury knew that this body was skinned. I don’t think it 
is competent. I will put it to the committee. 2072 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. There is evidence tending to show that they 
did knOvv that this man’s body which they sent to Harvard had 
funeral rites over it, which I think is equally an outrage. 
The Chairman. What will the committee do? 
Mr. Putney. Before the vote is taken I would like to have 
the records harmonized, if possible, so we can act intelligently. 
Gov. Butler. Then if you will let this stand here until 
Monday I think I can find on your record, if you will take care 
it don’t go out of 3’our hands until Monday, — until I see it, — 
I will then have this record and a chance to compare it. 
The Chairman. Can you finish with this witness. Governor, 
if you skip this point now? We will sit a little while longer. 
Gov. Butler. I believe I shall not have anything further 
at present, except what I have asked you about. 
Mr. Brown. I find among the records of the institution, 
No. 46,448 and 46,449, a record which I desire to read. 
Gov. Butler. Let me see it before you read it. I object 
to that until somebody shows that he wrote it. 
Mr. Brown. That who wrote it? 
Gov. Butler. Until somebody shows that this was not 
written since this began ; because we have had a pretty thorough 
examination of these books ; and I want to have some proof it 
was there. 
The Chairman. What is the book? 
Mr. Brown. The book is one of the volumes produced here 
from this institution, found a few days ago in the office of the 
board of state charities, in the handwriting of Mr. Tripp. 
The evidence shows it was Mr. Tripp’s duty to go to the insti- 
tution to take a record of these people. And here it is, in Mr. 
Tripp’s handwriting, one of the books that has been in evidence 
here since the early part of this investigation. Several of these 
records have been read by His Excellency the Governor in Mr. 
Tripp’s handwriting. I simply want — 
Gov. Butler. Never without identifying it. Bring Mr. 
Tripp here. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pai-don ; there has never been any 
identification. When you showed the book to me I asked j’ou 
in whose handwriting it was, and some one said it was Mr. 
Tripp’s. I think Mr. Hanson was asked, and he said it was 
Mr. Tripp’s. 
Gov. Butler. Well, that was an identification, was it not, 
upon your own statement? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2073 
Mr. Brown. Well, if you want me to show that that is Mr. 
Tripp’s handwriting. 
Gov. Butler. 1 want Mr. Tripp himself. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know that I am obligee! to produce Mr. 
Tripp. 
Gov. Butler. He is only up at Tewksbury. 
The Chairman. Is there anybody here that you can prove 
it by? 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Hanson will be right up here in a 
moment. 
Gov. Butler. You cannot prove it that way ; wait until 
Monday morning, and meantime I will have it examined ; and 
if I find that it is I will save }’ou the trouble. 
Mr. Brown. Very well; then I will let it go. 
The Chairman. Then we will adjourn till half-past nine next 
Monday. 2074 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
FORTY-FIFTH HEABIYG. 
Monday, June 11. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Julia P. Abbott (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Julia Pease Abbott. 
Q. Where do you live? A. In Lawrence. 
Q. Are you a physician? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Were you ever at the Tewksbury almshouse? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Under what name? A. I went there under the name of 
Julia P. Pease. 
Q. And since that you married Dr. Abbott? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did you go to the Tewksbury almshouse? A. 
January 1, 1880. 
Q. When did you leave? A. Januan' 7, 1882. 
Q. What physicians were there at the time you were there ? 
A. Dr. Lathrop and Dr. Abbott. 
Q. As physician there, did you have charge of any particu- 
lar department? A. I had charge, most of the time, of the 
woman’s hospital and the lying-in department. 
Q. Now, madam, during your connection with the Tewks- 
buiy almshouse, did you ever know of any cruel or abusive 
treatment administered to any patient there an inmate? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear any complaint from an}’ inmate that 
her property, that is, her clothing, had been taken and not re- 
stored? A. No, sir ; no, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear any complaint from anywhere that the 
clothing of the inmates wras appropriated by the Marsh family 
to their own purposes? A. No, sir. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2075 
Q. When you were at Tewksbury, was there a foundling 
department there? A. There were two foundlings there when 
I went there. 
Q. That is, those that had been brought there previously? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that during the larger portion of the time you were 
there, there were no foundlings. Now, Mrs. Abbott, having in 
mind your experience at Tewksbury, won’t you state wherein, 
either in the management or in the food, or in matter of cloth- 
ing, there was a deficiency to make the hospital fulfil the re- 
quirements which would be desired? A. Would you make 
that in three distinct questions? 
Q. Yres ; divide it yourself. A. You ask for any defect in 
management? 
Q. Yes; state first anyT defect in management? A. The 
general management of the institution I am not prepared to give 
any opinion upon. I attended only to my own department. 
That department was well carried on, as far as we had attend- 
ants. The part that 1 had charge of, sir, was as well carried 
on, it seemed to me, as it could possibly be with the attendants 
we had. In regard to the food, it was good, with the exception 
of lack of delicacies for the sick. 
The Chairman. The witness must speak louder. 
Gov. Butler. The first part of her answer was that she had 
no opinion to give of the general management. 
Q. Well, the administration of the hospital where your du- 
ties were performed was under the charge of Dr. Lathrop ; that 
is, the general administration? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. By your previous answer I suppose you mean that you 
had little or no knowledge of the administration of the affairs in 
the other departments of the almshouse? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, so far as you had an opportunity' of observing, was 
the administration of the medical department satisfactory? A. 
As satisfactory as in institutions generally'. 
Q. Now, you speak of the women’s hospital being carried 
on as well as it could be with the scanty attendance. Will you 
explain what you mean that? A. The number of attend- 
ants for the number of sick was not sufficient. 
Q. Now, take any one time in your department, and what 
was the largest number of sick? A. I don’t remember just 
the number of beds that were in the hospital. 2076 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, about? A. About one hundred in the women’s 
hospital. 
Q. How man}' attendants did you have, the largest number? 
A. Three or four ; sometimes only three. 
Q. In your judgment how many should you have had? A. 
Two or three more, surely. 
Q. Those attendants that you had, were they trained nurses? 
A. Some of them. * 
Q. How many of them were trained nurses? A. They 
were all of them fitted for nursing, but not all of them graduates 
of training-schools. 
Q. But the}' had all more or less experience? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And were the}7 satisfactory as far as they went in num- 
ber? A. Very good, indeed. 
Q. Do you know what wages were paid to those nurses? A. 
I have heard ; I don’t know. 
Gov. Butler. The book shows that. 
Q. Then your idea is that there should have been at least 
two or three more? Now, you say that there were not sufficient 
delicacies for the sick. Will you specify anything that you have 
in mind which would have been desirable? A. We could 
not have fruits or chickens or varieties of meat; nothing but 
steak. There was no chance for variety for tempting a sick 
person’s appetite at all — just the regular diet carried out. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Abbott, I suppose many of these sick were 
young girls who came there to be confined, weren’t they, in a 
great many instances? A. In the lying-in department; yes, 
sir. 
Q. With the exception of their present misfortune they were 
otherwise constitutionally quite rugged? A. Some of them 
were quite so, and some were not. 
Q. AVhile you were there, at what table did you take your 
meals? A. At the same table with the superintendent and the 
resident physician. 
Q. Mrs. Pease — or, Mrs. Abbott, I beg your pardon — 
what institution were you in before you went to Tewksbury? 
A. I was for a few months in the New England Hospital for 
Women and Children. 
Q. For how long? A. I went there the first of April and 
left there the last of December. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2077 
Q. From April to September? A. Until December — in 
December. 
Q. Were you related to the Marsh family? A. No, sir. 
Q. Related to any one of the trustees? A. No, sir. 
Q. You were chosen to take the place of Dr. West. 
Mr. Brown. You will have to speak a little louder. 
The Chairman. The committee complain that they cannot 
hear the governor nor the witness. 
Gov. Butler. You see the force of a bad example. 
Q. You took the place of Dr. West? A. I think he was 
there before I was. 
Q. Well, he was the physician whose place you took, wasn’t 
he? A. I think so ; I don’t know surely about it. 1 know he 
was there just before I went. I suppose I took his position. 
Q. There were no foundlings brought there after you got 
there ? A. Not after I got there ; no, sir. 
Q. Two only remained? A. Two, I think; I didn’t have 
charge of them. 
Q. You had charge of the lying-in hospital. How many 
births did 3011 have while you were there? A. Something over 
two hundred in two years ; the first year just one hundred and 
one, and I think there were two hundred and eight in the two 
years, but I cannot remember positively., 
Q. How many of those mothers were young? Most of 
them were young mothers, I suppose. A. Mostly so ; I could 
not say. 
Q. How many of them were of ordinarily good constitution? 
A. I think the majority of them were of good constitution. 
Q. A considerable majority, or a bare majority? A. I 
should have to look at the records to tell that positively, but I 
should think I could say a majority, safely. 
Q. And what portion of those births were born alive? A. 
A large portion. 
Q. Very few still-births, were there not? A. A few still- 
born. 
Q. Did you hear of a woman that had been delivered shortly 
before you were there, who was insane, and who had a very 
painful delivery? A. I barely heard of it. 
Q. Was she living when you were there? I know she was, 
because she lived afterwards; but was she there when you were 
there? A. I don’t know ; I don’t remember her. 
Q. You don’t know whether she was there or not. Now, 2078 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
what portion of those children lived ; what portion of those 
children were alive when you left, of those 208 births? A. 
I could not tell, sir. They were not in the institution. 
Q. What? A. They were not in the institution, a large 
portion of them, they had left. 
Q. Left with their mothers? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What portion remained in the institution? A. There 
was the average number in the institution when I left. There 
wrere always more or less, but they were going out all the 
time. 
Q. What was the average number. A. Fifteen, twenty, 
and twenty-five sometimes. 
Q. So that women would come there and lie in and have 
children, and go away when they got well enough? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. That was the rule of the institution? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that it w7as indeed a great lying-in hospital? A. 
There was that department. 
Q. Were those instruments to perform craniotomy, — were 
they bought after you got there or before? A. I don’t know ; 
they were there. 
Q. Now', you say that as to general management, you 
could only give the opinion that your own department was well 
managed. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now7, did you never hear that anybody got hurt there? 
A. In what way? 
Q. In way. A. Not that I know. 
Q. Understand my question. Did you ever hear, while you 
were there, of anybody that got hurt? A. I cannot mention 
any case. 
Q. I do not ask you whether you can mention any case. 
Answer my question. Did you hear of anybody that got hurt 
there? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
(4. Didn’t hear of any such thing that happened to anybody, 
sure of that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. A little louder. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, did you hear of that man who got struck 
with a pick-axe? A. No, sir. 
Q. Insane people? A. No, sir. 
Q. In jour ward, what was the food? Give me the break- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2079 
fast of a lying-in woman — the usual breakfast. A. Bread 
and tea. 
Q. The dinner? A. Oatmeal gruel and bread and tea, if 
wished, or toast. It varied in that way. 
Q. Oatmeal gruel, bread, crackers, and tea. A. And beef- 
steak at times. 
Q. What? A. Beefsteak sometimes. 
Q. I want the ordinary now. What was their supper ? A. 
Toast, and crackers, and tea, and oatmeal gruel. 
Q. Now, that was for lying-in women, and that period just 
before and just after ? A. Just after. 
Q. What did they have just before? A. The same as the 
rest of the house. 
Q. What was that? A. I think breakfast was bread and 
coffee. 
Q. What was the dinner? A. Salt beef or fish, or fresh 
fish. 
Q. What? A. Salt beef, salt fish, potatoes and bread. 
Q. What for supper? A. Tea and bread. 
Q. Bid your people in the hospital have cauliflower? A. I 
don’t remember it; they often had cabbage. 
Q. Celery? A. I never saw any. 
Q. I mean in that department. Asparagus? A. The}?- 
may have had asparagus sometimes in the season of it. 
Q. I don’t suppose they had it out of season ; why can’t }Tou 
answer? They may have had it. Did they have it? A. I 
don’t know. 
Q. Verj7 well; that answers the question. Did they have 
carrots? A. I didn’t see them. 
Q. Did they have gooseberries? A. I didn’t see any of 
them. 
Q. Did they have strawberries? A. I have seen straw- 
berries. 
Q. You have seen strawberries there, I have no doubt; but 
did 3’our people get them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many times? A. I could not tell you. Cer- 
tainly once. 
Q. Melons? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. IIow often? A. I could not tell you. I have seen 
them have melons. 
Q. Was the hospital ornamented with flowers? A. Some- 
times. 2080 
CIIAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. When? When visitors came? A. No more than any 
other time. 
Q. IIow much was it ornamented with flowers? A. A 
good man}’ days in the course of the summer. 
Q. Was it in the winter? A. Not usually; but some- 
times. 
Q. Was there any time when it was ornamented with flow- 
ers in the winter except when visitors came? A. Just as 
likely at other times. 
Q. Then there wras never any difference made at all whether 
visitors came or not? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never put anything in order one bit on account of re- 
ceiving visitors? A. No special difference made. 
Q. That is not the question. Anything put in order one 
bit when the visitors came? A. The ordinary work was done 
in the ordinary routine. 
Q. I don’t ask about ordinary work done in ordinary routine. 
Will you answer my question, or won’t you? Was there any 
bit of difference, and if so, what, made to receive visitors? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Do you know of any family on earth w’here that is not 
done except up at Tewksbury? I find in this report, madam — 
Mr. Brown. For what year? 
Gov. Butler. 1882. I find that they had thirteen hundred 
heads of celery, twenty-nine hundred heads of lettuce, four 
hundred heads of cauliflower, twenty-five hundred asparagus 
roots — so there must have been some asparagus. 
Mr. Brown. They must have had some roots; those were 
probably to set out. 
Gov. Butler. One hundred and fifty-nine quarts of cur- 
rants, seventy-nine quarts of gooseberries, six hundred and 
sixty-seven quarts of strawberries, nineteen hundred melons, 
thirteen thousand strawberry plants, thirty-one bushels dande- 
lions, nineteen bushels spinach, forty’-six bushels cucumbers, 
one thousand potted plants, fifteen hundred cuttings and bulbs. 
Q. And you think the poor sick people ought to have a 
few more delicacies than they do get? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Nowr, about the attendance, madam. Ilow many women 
were employed in your w7ard? A. Usually three in the day 
and one at night. 
Q. Tnose were attendants. I am asking how many women, 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300 
2081 
female women, were employed there. A. I don’t know7 how 
many. 
Q. About how many ? A. Anywhere from two to four or 
five, as was needed to do the work — the cleaning. 
Q. Anywhere from two to four or five. Those young 
healthy girls, after they had got over their confinement, that 
hadn’t gone away7— why not employ them? Did you? A. 
Yes, sir ; some of them. They were employed in the institution. 
Q. If you hadn’t attendants, why not employ them there in 
the lying-in hospital? Just the place for them. They knew 
how it was themselves. You had from fifteen to twenty of these 
people all the time, why didn’t you have enough to take care of 
the hospital? You had fifteen or twenty of them there, average 
number. A. This lying-in department was separate from the 
main hospital. 
Q. I know it was ; but then it was so easy for them to have 
stepped in, why didn’t you have them? A. In the wards in 
which they were they’ did the work and the work of the laundry7 
besides. 
Q. Oh, they did all the work of the ward they were in, and 
the work of the laundry. Well, but you had a launderer and a 
laundress there, didn’t you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Mr. Locke and his wife. Was that remarkable matron, - 
that yToung Miss Locke, there then? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. About how old was she? A. She was somewhere — 
Q. About seventeen? A. I guess she is over seventeen. 
Q. Do you think it is pretty certain she is over seventeen ? 
A. I think so. 
Q. Will you swear to eighteen? A. I could not swear to 
eighteen. 
Q. I thought I could get pretty’ near when she would not 
tell us. Well, she was one of the matrons. She was the 
matron that was put in charge of all the clothing? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Now, madam, didn’t you ever hear anything said about 
clothing being taken? I don’t know but it might have been 
slander— A. Yes. 
Q. I don’t know whether it was slander or not. 1 don’t 
want you to endorse it; but didn’t you ever hear anything said 
about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never did. They didn’t let you know any thing about it, 2082 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
did they ? Were you ever down in the clothing department 
yourself? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did the doctors do down there? A. Attended to 
feeble women going out. 
Q. Was there a sewing-room up stairs? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did they do in that, make clothing? A. Made 
and mended. 
Q. Any clothing made over there? A. I don’t know. 
Q. You don’t know about that? How do you know they 
made and mended? A. I saw it done. 
Q. Did you ever see any clothing made over? A. I never 
did. 
Q. We have a big phrase for who was in that department. 
The}' say “ presided over it.” Who had charge in that room? 
A. I suppose Mrs. Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. 
Q. Had the old lady any sewing-room up stairs ? A. Not 
that I know of. 
Q. Ever up there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was not there a sewing machine up in her x*oom? A. 
Yes, sir ; there was a sewing machine in her room. 
Q. There was a sewing machine, with nothing for it to do, I 
suppose. Who ran the sewing machine? A. I don’t know, 
sir. 
Q. Why wasn’t the sewing machine down in the sewing- 
room? What on earth did this old lady, almost eighty years 
old — what on earth did she want of a sewing machine up in 
her room? Did you ever see her running it for amusement? 
How many of these young lying-in women were employed in 
the laundry? A. All of them that were able. That was gen- 
erally the — 
Q. Well, now, if you wanted attendants, by law the resi- 
dent physician has the right to make requisition for anything 
that he wants, on the superintendent. Did you ever complain 
and ask the resident physician for more attendants? A. I did, 
sir. 
Q. Did you get them? A. It was for more trained help 
that I asked. 
Q. But you hadn’t trained help, you say, now ; only those 
that had some experience in nursing. A. Part of them were 
trained nurses, and some were not. 
Q. How many were trained? A. Two, 1 think, at the time 
I was there. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2083 
Q. Well, who? A. Miss Lizzie McKinnon and Miss 
McKay. 
Q. Now you had two there that were, and two that were not. 
'You had two that were not, and wanted two more ; why not 
take two more that were not? A. It was for paid help that I 
asked. 
Q. You asked for skilled help ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then you had enough help, except skilled help? A. 
Yes, sir ; I did. 
Q. You had enough help, except skilled help. What did 
you want skilled help for? A. To take care of the sick. 
Q. To take care? A. For general nursing and care. 
Q. Whom did you make requisition on for skilled help? 
A. Dr. Lathrop. 
Q. What reply did you get? A. That if it was possible it 
should be attended to. 
Q. Well, it was possible it might be attended to, that is 
clear ; all things are possible ; but was it attended to? A. We 
never had more than the number I have mentioned. 
Q. Well, you didn’t get what you wanted? A. Not as 
many as I would have liked. 
Q. Did you get as many as you asked for? A. No, sir. 
Q. And you didn’t get as many as were necessary? A. 
As I thought necessary. 
Q. Did he agree with you ? He told you it should be 
attended to — your request would be attended to. One would 
suppose that he thought it proper? A. He agreed as 
to the necessity7. 
Q. But you never got any more? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, about how many7 women were there in that estab- 
lishment altogether? A. Some four hundred, I believe ; usu- 
ally the women were half the number. 
Q. Then, it would be nearer five hundred, because there 
were over nine hundred there altogether. Now, weren’t there 
among those women skilled nurses,—people that had had some- 
thing to do with nursing, — people who have had to do nursing 
such as other people have to do? A. No, sir; I don’t think 
so. 
Q. Why not? A. They are not that Class of people. 
Q. Why, wasn’t there some woman who had got poor, and 
had come there at last? A. Not that I knew. 
Q. Did you make any inquiry? A. Yes, sir. 2084 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What? A. Yes, sir; seriously, at times. 
Q. But you had all the help, except for general nursing, 
that }7ou wanted ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q Ample help for every other purpose. Then everything 
could be kept as clean as a pin. if y'ou chose to keep it so? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And all it was, you thought it wrould have been better to 
have had some more nurses to attend the sick. Do you think 
the lying-in women suffered from that? A. I do. 
Q. What? A. I do. 
Q. And that all the time you were there? A. At times 
there were enough, because there would be only one or two in 
the lying-in department who were sick. 
Q. But I thought you said there was an average of about 
fifteen? A. Mothers with their children. 
Q. Very well. It would not take a great many to attend 
upon one or two? A. No, sir. 
Q. But was that fault remedied during the two years you 
were there? A. Why, one trained person only was prepared 
to take care of the lying-in. Only one trained person was pre- 
pared to take charge of the lying-in women at anytime. Those 
that 1 have mentioned before were in the hospital, which is 
separate. 
Q. Well, was that evil remedied while you were there? A. 
There was no change made in that respect while I was there. 
Q. W as Dr. Abbott, your husband, also a physician? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. There at the time ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) A single question. Was it practi- 
cable to use these women, that came there to be confined, for 
nurses for others when they became convalescent? A. I should 
have been sorry to have been obliged to do it. 
Q. Why? A. Because of their general unfitness for it, and 
care of their babies at the same time. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) In your judgment they could be 
utilized in the laundry better than the}’ could in (he lying-in 
hospital, — that is, their labor,—is that it? A. I should think 
so. 
Q. Pardon me. Don’t you think a woman could take care 
of a bab}T, while nursing, quite as well as wdien down in the 
laundry washing clothes or ironing, which is the hardest of all 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2085 
possible work, I understand? A. It could be arranged, of 
course. 
Q. Now, don’t you think — whether in your judgment she 
could not nurse her baby just as well while she was attending 
to patients in the lying-in hospital when she was not nursing, as 
she could go down and work in the laundry ? A. Probably. 
Q. Then why did you put in your answer to Mr. Brown that 
you didn’t use them as nurses, because they couldn’t attend to 
the nursing there? A. Because it was a drawback whatever 
they did. 
Q. Well, if it was a drawback, why did you let them go to 
that worse drawback? Now, honestly, don’t you think the 
women kept down there in that laundry got as much work as 
they ought to have, and a little more? A. I never thought it 
was so. 
Q. Then there were plenty of able women to do washing, 
but who could not attend to the nursing of a patient who was 
convalescent from lying-in? That is your testimony, is it? A. 
Of such help. I mean to say we had plenty of such kind of 
help for that. 
Q. Did you have any insane women in the hospital? A. At 
times. 
Q. Working? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. A considerable part of the time? A. Some nearly all 
the time. 
Q. Were they good help? A. Some would be, and some 
very poor. 
Q. Why did you have those very poor insane women in your 
ward taking care of the sick? A. They were doing the clean- 
ing ; not taking care of the sick. 
Q. That is part of the care of the sick? A, Not all the 
care, but the part they did. 
Q. Why, when there were plenty of good women in the 
laundry, did you have these insane taking care of the sick, 
whatever the care was? Some were employed in the sewing- 
room, weren’t they? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) Where do you live? A. Law- 
rence, Mass. 
Q. How long have you been in the profession ? A. I grad- 
uated in 1879. 
Q. In 1879? A. Yes, sir. 2086 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. How often have you performed craniotomy? A. I never 
performed it. 
Q. How often is it in practice? A. It is not often. 
Q. Did you ever know a case when you were at Tewksbury? 
A. Yes, sir ; one. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) They had instruments there when 
you were there? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. They had dismissed the rat-tail file and the 
screwdriver. 
Mr. Brown. Father Gigault. 
Gov. Butler. I want to go on with this matter of this paper 
now, if you please. Is Mr. Wretlind here? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of this committee. I sup- 
posed I had charge of this defence. 
Gov. Butler. So far as it has gone on now nominally you 
have ; generally it has been upon my side. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know any reason why the defence 
should be suspended for the .government to call a witness. 
Gov. Butler. This is it: When we adjourned on Friday we 
were upon the question of the identification of this piece of 
parchment, human parchment, which I have in my hand ; and 
the question was whether it should be put in that I might exam- 
ine upon it. There were two objections raised to it. In the 
first place that it could not be put in until I had traced it to 
Tewksbury. I attempted to trace it to Tewksbury by showing 
that it was on the register. Thereupon the counsel on the other 
side, who understands everything but the Swedish language, 
undertook to read it in one way, and say that it didn’t corres- 
pond to the books,—that the name on the books didn’t cor- 
respond to this name; that this name was Charles T., and the 
name on the books was Charles J. That is one objection. 
Another objection was that of the chairman apparently, that I 
hadn’t traced it to show where it came from. Another objection 
was that the age didn’t correspond with that indicated by the 
records. I am here prepared to prove, first, that this is, in 
Swedish, Charles J. Eklund, as it is on the register. 
I am prepared to prove further that the register is wholly un- 
reliable in point of date, by comparison with itself. I am pre- 
pared further to prove that this piece did come from the body 
of the person who will be thus proved to have been in Tewks- 
bury. And I thought it would be best to have all the proposi- 
tions in before we had a ruling, —. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2087 
The Chairman. Let me ask you, Governor, whether this,— 
how this is in rebuttal of anything that has gone in? 
Gov. Butler. How this is in rebuttal! I have not come to 
rebuttal, yet. I am now trying to prove — I am now trying to 
deal with Father Gigault’s testimony, in which he testifies to 
some matters. I want to show that he is mistaken, among 
other things, and for that purpose I produce this. He has tes- 
tified that he performed services over all Catholics who died at 
the institution. If it turns out that he didn’t over this one, 
then it shows that he was deceived by the management; and 
the purpose for which they put him on, to show that all Cath- 
olics had a Christian burial, will be answered. 
The Chairman. He said he supposed he attended all. 
Gov. Butler. He said it was the rule of the institution to 
send for him to do that. 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That was put in to show how well that insti- 
tution was carried on as regards Catholics. To answer that I 
propose to show — because nobody will doubt that the man who 
had that upon his breast was a good Catholic — I propose to 
show that this man was in Tewksbury, and he was tattooed on 
his breast with that; that was taken from his breast when he 
was skinned, and has been kept and is now here. And then it 
may be taken either way. If the Father says he didn’t bury 
this man, why, then it shows the managers of the institutution 
were cheating him ; they were sending off people to be skinned 
pretending to bury them. If he says he did bury this one, then 
they were committing in the most solemn form to earth the 
remains of those that — apparently the remains of those who 
were to be committed to an entirely different destination. But 
now the question is upon the order of proof. If the court sa}r 
— if the committee say I shall not go on with it now, I can 
delay it until the proper time. 
The Chairman. It seems to me if you want to identify this 
by Father Gigault you should ask him what you wish to, and 
then suspend it to another time. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; I suppose that would be the better 
way. 
Mr. Brown. I make this objection. I object to my defence 
being interrupted by any introduction of any new7 testimony by 
the governor. Now, if Father Gigault can identify that, very 
well; let him do it. I don’t object to that. But I don’t think 2088 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that after Father Gigault has left the witness stand, that then 
my defence is to be suspended for the accommodation of the 
governor who is to go on and introduce evidence in regard to 
that skin. 
The Chairman. I think so, too — unless there is a matter of 
convenience to this witness. 
Gov. Butler. The difference is this. If I can ask Father 
Gigault to identify it for the purpose of dealing with his testi- 
mony, why can’t I ask somebody else just as well? What is 
the legal difficulty ? 
The Chairman. On cross-examination of Father Gigault 
you may ask him any" question pertinent to the case ; and then 
if he don’t answer to your satisfaction, it seems to me that you 
can put on your witness, but you must wait until the other side 
get through. 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly, sir, that would be so. But 
while I am asking him I want to use this, which is a record. 
The Chairman. I think you should be allowed to use that, 
and ask Father Gigault any question ; but of course it is not in 
the case. 
Gov. Butler. Before I use the record I want to know what 
it reads. I am only asking the committee. 
The Chairman. Unless the committee order otherwise, 1 
should think — 
Mr. Mellen. He only wants to know what it reads by this 
witness. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; I have got here, now, a Swedish gen- 
tleman wrho can read it. 
The Chairman. As a matter of convenience that might be 
done. 
Mr. Murphy. I hope that will be done. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman : I would like to know what the 
committee have to do with the knowledge of what that reads, 
unless it is in this case. Every man can see by his eye what 
there is on that, and it seems as if the crucifix ought to be suf- 
ficient identification for that purpose, if Father Gigault ever saw 
it on a human body of any kind. But it is a most astonishing 
proposition, to me, that the Swedes are Catholics. I never 
heard of it before today. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t mean to make the proposition that all 
Swedes are Catholics, any more than I mean to make the propo- 
sition that all lawyers are Catholics. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2089 
The Chairman. You want this man to translate this? 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
The Chairman. I think, as a matter of convenience, rather 
than have him brought here again,'that can do no harm. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Brown understood, yesterday — 
The Chairman. Of course, before it goes into the case it 
must be identified. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t see, Mr. Chairman, — 
The Chairman. In strictness, the other way is right. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t propose to object, but I don’t see what 
it is to this committee whether it means he was born in 1820, or 
died in 1820, or came to America in 1820. I don’t think the 
case ought to be interrupted in this way. 
Gov. Butler. I see you don’t — or that he died at Tewks- 
bury. 
Mr. Brown. It is only an effort to get in something skew 
endwise ; something that ought not to be here. 
Mr. Mellen. The probability is that it will have considera- 
ble to do with the case before we get through, and it is not 
upon the figures 1820 that the question arose, if I have read 
aright the proceedings of the last day’s hearing ; it was upon 
the name. 
The Chairman. I think, as a matter of convenience, we 
might allow tins man to translate. I don’t think this piece of 
skin should go in until it is properly identified ; but as this wit- 
ness is here I should think it would be well enough to let him 
translate. 
Mr. Chester. Then why take our time to identify it if it is 
not in the case? 
Gov. Butler. I cannot offer it until I identify it. 
Mr. Brown. Why, Mr. Chairman, this city is swarming 
with Swedes, and I see three or four here this morning, any one 
of whom is capable of translating that with absolute accuracy ; 
and there won’t be a time within the next thousand years when 
there cannot be fifty produced here any morning, it seems to 
me an astonishing proposition that there isn’t but just one 
Swede capable of translating the words on that skin, and, there- 
fore, he must be here this morning. 
The Chairman. If you object to it I will put it to the com- 
mittee. It is out of the usual course. 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubt I can produce other Swedes 2090 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
by the process of the Commonwealth. I used the process of 
the Commonwealth in this case. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I will produce ten any morning without 
the process of the Commonwealth, and let you take your pick. 
Gov. Butler. But then, I have a choice. Like all other 
things, there are good Swedes and bad Swedes. 
Mr. Putney. I think last Friday the question was whether 
or not this should be admitted, and I think I made the proposi- 
tion then, that if the governor could come here with sufficient 
evidence which would in any way clear up the question Mr. 
Brown has raised with regard to name, age, etc., then it would 
be competent for the committee to vote on it. It seems by this 
evidence that this is a piece of human parchment. 
Gov. Butler. And I have tried to do just that thing. 
Mr. Murphy. I would like to move that the witness be 
sworn, and be permitted to translate the name and words on 
this piece of skin. 
Mr. Brown. If the chairman will allow me to make a sug- 
gestion in regard to what Mr. Putney, a member of the commit- 
tee, has suggested, I would like to say that I find from the 
record that five witnesses have testified that no bodies were ever 
brought to Harvard College during the months of July and Au- 
gust. This man died on the third day of August, 1879. No 
bodies were brought there in 1879 in those months ; we have 
the testimony that the first body that went to Harvard College 
in that year was on the 17th of October. Now, this man dying 
on the third day of August, the presumption would seem to be, 
on the testimony already offered, that it could not have been 
this man’s body, — this Charles J. Echland, whose name is reg- 
istered, because he died on the third day of August. Now, 
it seems to me that not only they do not connect it with Tewks- 
bury, but I think the presumption is that a man dying on that 
day didn’t go to Harvard College, on the evidence which has 
thus far been offered. 
The Chairman. If this goes in now, it goes in De bene, as 
we say, unless it is followed up by proof. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, I will follow it up by proof. 
Mr. Brown. The witness is simply to translate this inscrip- 
tion. 
The Chairman. That is all. 
Gov. Butler. That is all this witness can do. You must 
remember they pickled bodies there once. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2091 
Mr. Brown. But not in that year. The pickling was not 
done in that year. 
[The committee voted that the witness should be sworn and 
allowed to testify.] 
Testimony of Eric Wretlind (sworn) 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Mr. Wretlind, you were born in Sweden? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Are you acquainted with the Swedish languaage? A- 
Yes, sir. 
Q. You are now an apothecary? A. Yes, sir; a Swedish 
apothecary. 
Q. At 101 Tremont Street? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (B37 Mr. Brown.) How long did you live in Sweden? 
A. Twenty-three }7ears. 
Q. What part of Sweden? A. Most always in Upsala, and 
some part in Stockholm. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, sir, being acquainted with 
the Swedish language, won’t you look at that paper, parchment 
or skin, whatever it may be, and read it as it should be in 
English. [Presenting to the witness the piece of skin offered 
in evidence.] A. “C. J. Eklund, born the seventh of March, 
the year 1820.” 
Q. “ C. J. Eklund, born the seventh of March, 1820.” And 
is that second letter J? A. In Swedish it can be either J or 
I, and nothing else. We used to write I that way. 
Q. The}7 used to write I that way or J that way? A. Yes, 
sir ; often. 
Q. In painting? A. Yes, sir; in sign painting, etc. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. C. J. . Now, won’t you spell this name as it is 
on this piece of parchment? A. E-k-l-u-n-d. 
Q. Now, put that in English and give us the letters of it? 
A. I think it could be 
Q. I don’t want that, I want you to spell it in English ? A. 
E-k-l-u-n-d, as it stands. 
Q. Then E-c-h-l-a-n-d would not be proper, would it? A. 
No. 
Q. There is no business to be an a where the u is, is there? 
A. No, 2092 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. On your oath? A. No. 
Q. Now Fodd means what? A. Born. 
Q. And den means what? A. The. 
Q. And Mars? A. March. 
Q. Then here seems to be something else like an A and an 
r. What is that? A. That is An. That is the year. 
Q. 1820? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You lived in Sweden twenty* years, did you? A. 
Twenty-three years. 
Q. Are }rou a Catholic? A. No; very few Catholics in 
Sweden. 
Q. Did 3*011 ever see a Catholic church in Sweden, any- 
where? A. Well, there is one in the metropolis. 
Q. Did }Tou ever see one anywhere else except in the 
metropolis? A. No. 
Q. Then, there is only one Catholic church in all Sweden, 
so far as you know? A. Perhaps there may be one in Got- 
tenburg, but that would be the only* one, except in the 
metropolis. 
Q. With possibly* that exception, there is only that in all 
Sweden? A. That is for the accommodation of foreigners. 
Q. Except for curiosity they might have one there? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. The name is spelled on the record, 1-u-n-d. 
The Chairman. Now, recall Father Gigault. 
Frederick Gigault {recalled). 
Gov. Butler. I propose to trace this further, in order to 
show, if I can get it in, — T have got a witness now who took 
it off and knows where he took it from. 
The Chairman. I think you should wait till the other side 
gets through. 
Gov. Butler. I have the witness here, now, who took this 
piece of skin off and knows where it caine from. 
The Chairman. It seems to me 3*011 should wait. 
Gov. Butler. Well, sir, the question as stated by one of 
the committee was, whether this should be evidence, so I can use, 
it with the Father, or anybody else ; with Mr. Tom Marsh, when 
he comes on, — I shall want to ask him something about that. 
The Chairman. Now, so far as Father Gigault is concerned, 
1 don’t see wiry you should not use it; ask him all the questions 
you can, and finish him. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2093 
Gov. Butler. I now propose to see whether this sha’n’t go 
into the case right here, now. 
The Chairman. I think it is interrupting the defence. 
Gov. Butler. If the committee think so, then I shall he 
cut off; if not, I shall get on. I come here with the man who 
took it off', and I want to get rid of this glamour about it; and, 
then, I have got a record here showing the age, — I have got 
from the records one woman whom we know, Mary Tynan, who 
is entered under four or five different ages. 
The Chairman. It might take two days, Governor, to estab- 
lish this fact. The other side is here with its witnesses ready 
to go on to-day, and it seems to me the orderly waj' would be 
for one side to finish first, and then the other. 
Gov. Butler. Very well. 
Mr. Gilmore. Before that is admitted as evidence, it seems 
to me that Father Gigault should identif}' it. 
Gov. Butler. I am trying to have it identified. 
Mr. Gilmore. Should be identified by him. 
Gov. Butler. I must ask a vote of the committee, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I want to know what the proposition is that 
His Excellency saj-s he asks for a vote of the committee on. 
The Chairman. I suppose it is competent for the governor 
to finish his cross-examination of Father Gigault; if he wants 
to ask him any questions about that parchment or paper, let 
him ask it. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t object. 
The Chairman. But, after that, I don’t understand the gov- 
ernor can call other witnesses to put this in now ; his time will 
come. 
Gov. Butler. I ask for this committee of investigation to 
identify this written record of a man’s identification by all the 
evidence I have got, and, then, I want to use it in my cross- 
examination, not waiting till the rebuttal, but in cross-exami- 
nation, not only of this witness, but of some others. 
Mr. Murphy. I should like to draw the committee’s atten- 
tion to one thing, and that is that when the books of the Char- 
don Street Home were presented here this committee would not 
allow them to be admitted till somebody was brought here to 
identify them. 
The Chairman. Exactly, — 
Mr. Murphy. And I think this, here, is in perfect keeping 
with that. 2094 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. And 1 don’t want this to come in till it is 
identified. 
Mr. Murphy. The governor proposes to bring somebody to 
identify it. 
The Chairman. If Father Gigault can identify it it is com- 
petent, because he is a witness on the other side. 
Mr. Murphy. There is another witness whom the governor 
has. 
Gov. Butler. Father Gigault may not know anything about 
it. 
The Chairman. The governor can bring anybody he chooses 
to swear to this at the proper time. 
Mr. Murphy. There is no reason he should not now, as in 
the other case. 
The Chairman. Is there any reason why he should inter- 
rupt the course of the defence ? 
Mr. Murphy. He interrupted the course of the defence 
before; you refused to admit the books till witnesses were 
brought forward to identify them. Why is not this on a paral- 
lel with that? 
The Chairman. Because the defence is now putting in its 
case, — 
Mr. Murphy. It was doing the same thing there. 
The Chairman. And the defence should not be interrupted 
by the other side till it gets through. 
Mr. Murphy. Precisely the same thing there. 
The Chairman. I will put it to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. I want it in now, because I shall be told it 
don’t belong to Tewksbury. I am going to trace it to Tewks- 
bury if God spares my life. 
Mr. Murpiiy. I move that the witness the governor proposes 
to call be called. 
The Chairman. Father Gigault, I suppose the committee 
understands, is the witness who was on the stand when we ad- 
journed, and he is now on the stand. Now, do the committee 
wrant to discharge Father Gigault and allow' the governor to 
call another witness. 
Gov. Butler. I stated on Friday, over and over again, the 
point to which I wmnt to use this paper, use this matter, but I 
will state it once more. It has been claimed, first, that there 
has been no human hide traced to Tewksbury. 
The Chairman. The evidence, as I understand it, was front 1883.] 
HOUSE]—No. 300. 
2095 
Dr. Porter ; that every body that came from Tewksbury, or an}r- 
where else, was practically skinned in the medical college. 
Gov. Butler. What say? 
The Chairman. Was practically skinned ; isn’t that the evi- 
dence ? 
Mr. Mellen. That is past evidence. 
Gov. Butler. Of course, you can’t dissect a muscle till you 
take the skin off of it. 
The Chairman. Exactly. 
Gov. Butler. And his testifying it don’t make it any better 
or any worse, — it does make it a little worse. But that is not 
the point; the point is whether that, like any other remains, 
was, under the law, decently buried, and you never will be able 
to dodge that in the world. That is the point. 
The Chairman. Nobody wants to dodge that. 
Gov. Butler. Whoever wants to never can do that; that is 
the point. Now, then, it is said that it can never be shown, 
and has not been shown, that any portion of these human skins 
that are afloat in this community in the shape of slippers and 
other things, came from Tewksbury ; and there was a howl of 
the satanic press on that subject. Now, then, I propose, for 
once and for all to stop that howl, and I have got to do it by 
dealing with these witnesses, and to deal with the witnesses, — 
not only the Father, — he may or may not remember it,— 
but Tom Marsh, or with anybody else that is brought here, and 
for that purpose I want to identify it. You let me go a little 
ways, and then stop me under some pretence which I don’t un- 
derstand ; because, if I can go a little ways, I must make m}T 
whole proof. How am I to be stopped? If I can’t identify it 
by all, why, then I should have been stopped before; but, 
going a little ways, — why, the man may not be believed. The 
answer, when I offered it, was that the books show a different 
name, because this was Charles T. Ekland and the books show 
Charles J. Ekland. Now, I produce a witness who says this is 
Charles J. and that Mr. Brown didn’t read it right, and the J 
is made just like our old-fashioned J, in the olden time, in Jesus, 
where it was there in a capital. Now, I have done that. The 
next objection is, and that is stated to-day, that this death was 
in August. Yes ; I know it was in August, the third of Au- 
gust ; and that somebody has testified that no bodies left after 
August; that they left only the first of September. Why, that 
don’t come to anything, except as an argument. To meet that 2096 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
argument I want to show where this piece came from ; that it 
did come from a body, and the hooks show that body was in 
Tewksbury when in life and must have been there in death, for 
it died there, and, instead of being returned to the dust to which 
it was committed, it now appears here on the table of this com- 
mittee. Now, if the committee say I shan’t do that, be it so. 
I had as lief take that ruling as any other, if the committee 
rule it, but I will not surcease from my view of duty till that 
question is tried, God giving me health and strength. 
The Chairman. My objection to it is that it is not com- 
petent now to stop the trial of the defence to allow you to go 
on ; that is the ground I put it on. 
Gov. Butler. That is a matter of convenience, simply, 
within the discretion of all courts, you know ; a question of 
time. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that it ought to 
be apparent to each member of the committee that it is much 
more convenient, and would tend to shorten our hearing more 
by having it admitted now when we have got a witness on the 
stand to whom questions are to be put relative to this very 
parchment, and other witnesses who will be put on by the 
defence, to whom questions will be put relating to this same 
piece of skin, rather than to defer the question of admitting 
this skin as evidence for a week or, possibty, two weeks, and 
then to call these same witnesses over again. I think we 
should proceed in a common-sense way. I don’t think we 
ought to go upon technicalities, or take any advantage of 
that kind, or put ourselves to inconvenience because of 
some technical practice that is in vogue in the courts. This 
should be a court unto itself; its rulings should be, I maintain, 
in conformity with common sense. Now, if the proposition was 
not in conformity with common sense, I would not favor the en- 
tertaining of it; but it seems to me it is. We have got to 
determine, sooner or later, on the admission of this evidence, 
the question of this skin. We might as well do it now, as we 
did in relation to the Chardon Street books. Do you recollect 
how the business was suspended then, or wanted to be suspended 
by the chairman and by other members of the committee, till 
somebody could come and identify the books ? 
The Chairman. The governor was then putting in his case ; 
he hadn’t rested and given up the court to the other side. 
Mr. Murphy. I beg your pardon. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2097 
The Chairman. The governor offered the Cliardon Street 
books, and they were objected to. 
Mr. Mellen. He offered them as he offers this now. He 
wanted to question a witness about something which the Char- 
don Street books contained information upon, that would throw 
light upon the subject. Objection was made by Mr. Brown to 
the introduction of those books at that time. 
The Chairman. It may be I am mistaken. 
Mr. Murphy. It is the same ; the parallel is precisely the 
same. 
Gov. Butler. Will you allow me to call for a moment the 
attention of the committee to another thing. When Gov. Rice 
was on the stand you interrupted my cross-examination by a 
solemn vote to allow the whole record of an investigating com- 
mittee of the legislature to be read. 
The Chairman. But not to call another witness. 
Gov. Butler. What is the difference? 
The Chairman. It makes a great difference. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t see it; pardon me. And it was put 
upon the ground, before the committee, and I suppose the com- 
mittee must have voted on that ground, for there was no other, 
that it was necessary to have it done in order that the charges in 
the letter of the board of state charities should be answered by 
the report of the investigating committee ; and, in spite of all 
I could do, you stopped me in my cross-examination, when I 
had the floor, to serve a purpose, to have that whole investiga- 
tion of thirty-six odd pages read. And, now, when I want 
to identify a paper, for the purpose of use, you are very techni- 
cally, conveniently discreet,— because this is a matter in }rour 
discretion. 
The Chairman. I don’t understand that the cases ate the 
same. 
Mr. Brown. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that His Excel- 
lency must have forgotten entirely the course of this trial in 
reference to this matter, else he would not take the position be- 
fore the committee which he takes this morning. In the cross- 
examination of one of my witnesses, he undertook to read from 
the books of the Chardon Street Home, and I objected to their 
going in as evidence. The committee then said it was not pro- 
per for him to use those books and to read from them for the 
purpose of having those entries go in evidence, unless there 
should be some explanation made to show how those entries 2098 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
came in the books ; and then His Excellency said that that would 
not be proper, and he would not call a witness. Now he wants 
that rule reversed. His Excellency has turned a complete som- 
ersault since the books of the Chardon Street Home were of- 
fered. 
Gov. Butler. A little too heavy for that. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t care anything about the weight; you 
can do it beautifully. Now, where are we this morning? His 
Excellency wants to identify that piece of human skin — he says 
it is — and to put it in this case. The committee have stepped 
aside from the usual rule and have permitted him to introduce 
a witness for the purpose of translating the inscription on that 
article, whatever it is, which is in Swedish, and we now have it 
translated into English. Now, the gentleman from Worcester 
of the committee has made a very sensible suggestion to the 
committee, and I endorse it fully. I go with him to the full 
extent to which he has suggested, that any question which His 
Excellency wants to ask this witness on the stand, my witness, 
about that skin, he has a right to ask. But he has no right to 
call a witness of his own to testify in regard to anything there 
is on that, or anything about it, — where it came from, who got 
it, how it was prepared, or anything of the kind, or where it 
came from. Nothing of that kind has he a right to do, but if 
I produce forty more witnesses he can take that piece of skin 
and ask every one of them if he knows any thing about it,, 
and I shan’t object; it would not do me any good if I did 
object, because 1 am powerless under the rules of proceeding in 
this Commonwealth in all our courts. But the idea that this 
committee should interrupt 1113- defence to allow His Excellency' 
to introduce a long line of witnesses in order to establish that 
the body from which that piece of skin is said to have come was 
the body of this man who died in Tewksbury on the thh'd of 
August, is the most absurd and astonishing proposition that I 
ever heard. And, while I should be disposed to be very cour- 
teous and to submit to the judgment of this committee in all 
matters, I desire to say', for myT own self-respect, that while I 
am conducting this defence, I shall not allow, and so long as I 
remain here as counsel, T shall not allow ray defence to be in- 
terrupted by any such course of conduct. I don’t know when 
or where His Excellency might stop. He might go on for the 
next three weeks. He has already occupied by' actual count 
five minutes to every single one that I have occupied in putting 1883.j 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2099 
in my defence, — that is to say, by actual count from the watch, 
he has occupied in cross-examination five minutes to ever}' one 
minute which I have occupied in the direct examination of my 
witnesses. 
Mr. Mellen. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is not a matter — 
Gov. Butler. That is very well; but I should like to know 
who held the watch. 
Mr. Brown. I will produce the man who held the watch 
before we get through this, if it amounts to anything. I have 
had you timed ever since you have been here. 
Gov. Butler. We will see. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Brown does not take in my full proposi- 
tion, to my mind. Now, I should like to ask the committee of 
what avail w'ould it be to us to permit Gov. Butler to ask this 
witness a series of questions about that piece of parchment if, 
after he had asked the questions of this witness, and other ques- 
tions relating to this parchment of other witnesses, if in the end 
we would notf admit the parchment? 
The Chairman. The one answer to that is that the gov- 
ernor should have produced his witnesses and the parchment 
when he had the trial in his hands. 
Mr. Mellen. Possibly he didn’t have it then. I maintain 
that it is the convenience of this committee, rather than the 
convenience of the counsel or of Gov. Butler, that should be 
suited. 
The Chairman. Exactly; but — 
Mr. Mellen. If that is true, I can’t for the life of me 
see how anybody can maintain that it is not for the convenience 
of this committee to find out what value there is in this parch- 
ment as evidence in this case before time is wasted in asking 
questions of this witness or any other about it. First let us 
know what it amounts to. Now, the governor says he has got 
a series of questions to ask this witness, — 
The Chairman. Let him ask them. 
Mr. Brown. I sha’n’t object. 
Mr. Mellen. I object to taking up time which may be for 
naught. I want to know if it is to amount to anything ; I want 
to know what this parchment is. It seems to me the committee 
should want to know, and should not want to dodge behind a 
technicality. 
The Chairman. I don’t think they do ; but -if the committee 2100 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
is to be interrupted first by one side taking one day and then 
the other the next day, we never shall get through. 
Mr. Mellen. If this matter is to be considered it should be 
considered at the most convenient time. I think the most con- 
venient time is now, when he has a witness on the stand lie 
wants to ask about this very parchment. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t object. 
Mr. Mellen. Then let us go on and find what this parch- 
ment is. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t object to his asking this witness any 
questions he desires. 
Gov. Butler. You say only your witnesses, and I want mine. 
Mr. Brown. I object to that. 
The Chairman. It is moved that the governor be allowed 
to call liis next witness and examine him in regard to this 
parchment. 
Mr. Putney. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that from the first 
commencement of this investigation up to the present moment 
we have had questions of a similar character continually coming 
up to be decided by this committee, and, I think, it has been 
the purpose of the committee in every case on both sides to 
admit anything and everything that was reasonable. Evidence 
comes in here without the committee having the slightest knowl- 
edge of what that evidence is, and, before we know it, there are 
questions coming up which ought to be sustained by other ques- 
tions, and, it seems to me, that this is one of these matters. 
On last Friday it was a question before this committee whether 
or not this parchment should be admitted here as evidence, and, 
with that proposition pending, with a view that the governor 
should bring witnesses here to sustain the proposition, the in- 
vestigation adjourned. Now, I hold that this matter of calling 
new witnesses should come in in proper place ; that is, in re- 
butting testimony. But, on the other hand, if the governor has 
but one witness, it seems to me it is a saving of time to hear 
what that witness has to say, and, then, if the committee will 
vote in the future to allow nothing to come in except what 
would naturally come in under the usual ruling of the court, 1 
shall hold up both hands. 
Mr. Gilmore. I think Mr. Putney is a little at fault in his 
last statement. The understanding was, as I understood it, on 
Friday, that Father Gigault was to bring his books to-day to 
reinforce his memory, from which he should testify. 1883.] 
HOUSP;— No. 300. 
2101 
Mr. Putney. I think there was a statement made — 
Gov. Butler. I think if you will look at the record 3011 will 
find that is a mistake. 
Mr. Putney. I think there was reference made to another 
witness. 
Mr. Gilmore. There has been a promise made with every 
piece of skin offered here that it was going to be connected with 
•Tewksbury, and I fail to see any connection yet. 
Mr. Mellen. Then let him show you ; that is what he pro- 
poses to do now. 
Mr. Murphy. Here is a chance for you. 
Mr. Mellen. Here is a fight against the opportunity of 
proving there is a connection. That is the way it looks to me. 
Mr. Gilmore. This parchment was introduced in the exami- 
nation of Father Gigault, and, in my opinion, he is the man to 
identify it, or say he can’t identify it, and that ends it. 
Mr. Putney. I call for the reading of the last portion of 
Friday’s testimony. 
[Record read by Mr. Brown.] 
Mr. Murphy. I call for the question. 
The Chairman. The question is whether the governor shall 
be allowed to call another witness on the point of this parch- 
ment at the present time. 
[ The question was put to the committee. ] 
The Chairman. T vote in the negative, purely on the ground 
that it is not competent at the present time. The committee 
stands 4 to 4, and it is rejected. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, I protest against this. 
The Chairman. Your protest will go on record. 
Mr. Murphy. I protest, also, so as to go on the record. 
Mr. Mellen. It is only in keeping with your other acts ; 
we don’t expect anything from you. 
The Chairman. Everything that you say is taken at its 
proper worth here. 
Mr. Murphy. I value it very highly, Mr. Chairman, for one. 
Mr. Risteen. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, it is out of the 
usual course. 
Mr. Murphy. It is very unusual, at least. 
The Chairman. The chairman has a right to vote, and has 
voted every time. 
Mr. Mellen. You vote when there is a tie, not otherwise, 
The Chairman. Proceed, Governor, 2102 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Have you got your books of burials? A. This is the 
first record. [[landing book to governor.] 
Mr. Mullen. I think we had better consider the question 
whether to have a new chairman or get our old chairman back. 
Mr. Learnard. I call the gentleman to order. 
The Chairman. You can do as you please about that; you 
are not here more than one-tenth of the time. 
Mr. Mellen. When I am here I act decent; that is all I can 
say. 
The Chairman. The gentleman is pretty- well known, I 
think. 
Mr. Mellen. You will be before this is over, I think. 
The Chairman. Proceed, Governor. 
Q. Does this book contain all the burials? It commences, I 
see, in January, 1879. A. Not all; but for two years, 1879 
and 1880. 
Q. For 1879 and 1880? A. Yes. 
Q. That is, it contains all the burials for that year? A. 
For that year. 
Q. That you made? A. That I made. 
Q. Where you made funeral services, and you made funeral 
services in each one? A. For each one of those mentioned 
there. 
Q. That are found on the book. Now, have y-ou got the 
other ? A. That is a record for all of them ; I have not the 
one for the other yrears. I could not find it, this memorandum ; 
I gave the list to the institution ; I have only for this year. 
Q. For what year? A. For this year, and for 1879 and 
1880. The others, I could not find them, because I am not 
bound to keep any' record ; it is a private thing. I gave the 
list to the institution, and I know they kept it there. 
Q. You did give a list to the institution ; did they ask you 
to do it ? A. They asked me to do it. 
Q. How often did you give this list? A. Well, every 
month or two months, generally-; every two or three months. 
Q. To whom did you give them? A. To the secretary-, 
the clerk of the institution, Mr. Charles Marsh. 
Q. Then he had a record of the funerals? A. He has. 
Q. So far as you are concerned. A. Given him at his own 
request. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Brown, I would like that record pro- 
duced. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2103 
Mr. Brown. What? 
Gov. Butler. The record of the burials of the institution, 
given by Father Gigault to Charles Marsh. 
Mr. Brown. Does he testify he kept any record of the 
burials? I understood him it was a record of the bodies over 
which he performed funeral rites. 
Gov. Butler. Usually that is a record of burials. 
Mr. Brown. But you say in this case it has not the slightest 
value. I wanted to find out wdiat you meant, because you said 
people who had masses said over them went immediately to 
Harvard College. 
Gov. Butler. No use of having any — 
Mr. Brown. Now you are in the wrong and you want to 
stop. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; we can’t have any trouble about 
this. T assume, when funeral rites are said over a man, that is 
his burial. If any man steals the bod}’ after that, I am not re- 
sponsible ; therefore I am asking him for the record of the 
burials. 
Mr. Brown. I only wanted to understand you. I will make 
inquiries to ascertain. 
Gov. Butler. The record of burials Father Gigault swore 
he gave to the clerk of that institution,—I will ask you to pro- 
duce it. 
Mr. Brown. I will endeavor to ; I can’t produce it at this 
moment. 
Gov. Butler. That is all with you, Father, now. 
Mr. Brown. Now, let us see that book which you have re- 
ceived from Father Gigault. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly, sir ; I have no concealment. 
Mr. Brown. What is to be done with it; is it to be offered 
in evidence? 
Gov. Butler. I am going to examine it and offer it in evi- 
dence. 
Mr. Brown. That is, after you have examined it, but you 
don’t desire to do it now ? 
Gov. Butler. I cannot have time to examine it now. 
Mr. Brown. Excuse me. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Is the name of Charles J. Ekland in 
that book, Father Gigault? A. No, sir. 
Q. It is not? A. No, sir. 
Q. And, within your experience, Father Gigault, the Swedes 2104 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
are not Catholics, are they? A. I think they are not gen- 
erally ; I cannot say sure ; that is my opinion. 
Q. And you never saw a human body that had this inscrip- 
tion on the breast with this writing? A. Well, I cannot tell 
exactl}7; the last time I gave evidence I was a little taken by sur- 
prise, and, as I said, I did not recollect at all. I know I have 
seen a man at Tewksbury who had some tattoos on his body. 
I saw two or three, perhaps, in the course of the six years, but 
I don’t recollect if it was on that man that I saw. I know 
there was a man there that was tattooed in a wonderful way ; 
that is all I know. 
Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) Any of these men Swedes? A. I 
think there was a Scandinavian; I don’t know he was a Swede ; 
but some of the inmates told me that he was wonderfully 
tattooed, and they wanted to show it to me ; but I don’t recol- 
lect the name of the man, nor I don’t recollect the kinds of 
figures that were in these tattoos, so I can’t tell if I saw them or 
not. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Do you know anything about the 
Swedish language, Father Glgault? A. 1 don’t know, sir. 
Q. You are not able to translate it? A. No, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, Father, did they tell you what 
that tattooing was ? 
Mr. Brown. Now I o’bject. 
Gov. Butler. Why? 
Mr. Brown. It is nothing but hearsay. 
Gov. Butler. You sat as quiet as a lamb, and let him tell 
you what the inmates said ; now I want to know what they said 
at the same time. 
Mr. Brown. Because you didn’t object. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me, 1 want it to go in, why should I 
object; and I thought I would find out the rest they said. 
Now, I want to know what was said by the inmates at the same 
time ; can you put in a part of it and then stop me? 
Mr. Brown. Not at all. 
Gov. Butler. Then 1 will go on. 
Mr. Brown. IIis answer was not in response to anything I 
put to him. 
Gov. Butler. I beg your pardon. 
Mr. Brown. You look at the question and you will see. 
Gov. Butler. You sat by and let him answer; I want to 
know what was said at the same time by the inmates. 1883 
HOUSE —No. BOO. 
2105 
Mr. Brown. Go on ; I don’t object. 
Q. Did they tell you what that tattooing was ; was it a figure 
of the crucifixion? A. Well, I can’t tell. 
Q. You can’t tell ? A. I cannot tell, because 1 was pass- 
ing away and did not pay much attention. 
Q. Was that said at the time, that he was passing away? 
A. 1 say it was passing away from me, because, going there 
on ministerial duty, 1 didn’t look around except for my minis 
terial duty. 1 had nothing to do, if I recollect, with that man. 
Q. The inmates called your attention to some man that had 
some wonderful tattooing on him? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you understood he was a Scandinavian? A I 
think so ; I am not sure. 
Q. His name is not on this record ? A. It is not. 
Q. Was it called to your attention by the Catholic inmates? 
A. Well, I think so, but I am not sure. I think so; 1 am 
pretty sure it was so. 
Q. You are pretty sure it was so ; very well. Now, we will 
see about the third of August. [Referring to the book.] 
Mr. Brown. He says it is not there. 
Gov. Butler. I know, but 1 want to make that certain ; 
you have no objection to that. 
Q. Of course he would not be buried the same day he died, 
but, however, we will begin at the third. Interpret this book a 
little. There, on that column, is the name,—in 1879, was it? 
A. In 1879, with the dates here. [Referring to the book.] 
Q. And in that column [referring to the book] are the peo- 
ple who died in 1880? A. The same year, but there was not 
room enough in the other column. 
Q. Now, how shall I tell which the 1880’s were? A. 
What? 
Q. How shall I tell which were buried in 1880, here? A. 
In 1880? 1 have a record in the first part of the book for those 
in 1880, beginning here. [Referring to the book.] It is only 
a memorandum ; it is not in proper form. 
Q. The form is good enough. That is, the burials in 1879 
are under what is headed “ cash account ” in this memorandum? 
A. This cash account is for another parish of which I have the 
charge. 
Q. I understand ; it is printed here, that is all I mean. A. 
It is printed here ; I did not mind. 
Q. And the burials for 1880 are in what would be called the 2106 
CHAEITABLE INSTITUTIONS, 
[Apr. 
diary part? A. Well, all these things are memoranda for dif- 
ferent things besides. It is pretty much mixed up, because it 
was onl}T for myself. 
Q. What is names is burials, and what is other matters is 
other matters ? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all right; I only wanted to get it so I 
should know about it. That is all, s’ir. 
Mr. Brown. That is all, sir. 
Testimony of Abraham S. Barnard (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is }7ou’r full name? A. Abraham S. Barnard. 
Q. And what is your business? A. I am a cook. 
Q. Where? A. State almshouse, Tewksbury. 
Q. How long have you been cook at the State almshouse, 
Tewksbury? A. Well, almost fourteen years. 
Q. Almost fourteen years ; have you been what is called the 
“boss cook?” A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And all these other cooks we have heard about have been 
under you, have the}’? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want you to tell me if there has been any sub- 
stantial change in the cooking at Tewksbury during the fourteen 
3rears which you have been there; and, if so, what? A. Well, 
sir, there has not been much; I have not been there all the 
time, stead}7. 
Q. Well, what part of the time haven’t }-ou been there? A. 
When I first went there it was 1860. 
Q. 1860? A. August 28, 1860. 
Q. How long did you stay, then? A. I stayed two years ; 
till September, 1862. 
Q. And then how long were you away? A. 1 was awa}7 
about two years. 
Q. And then you went back? A. Yes, sir; I went back 
in 1864. 
Q. And }'ou have been there continuously since 1864, have 
you? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, how long did you stay when }7ou went back in 
1864? A. Well, I sta}’ed there till 1871; December 9th, 
1871. 
Q. Then how long were you away? A. Then 1 was away, 
— December 16 I wrent to the Monson State Primary School 
and stayed there till 1877 ; Jauuar}7, 1877. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2107 
Q. Then you came back and have been there ever since ? 
A. I came back and went to Andover,—that is where my home 
is, — and stayed there about a year and a half, and came up 
back to Tewksbury in 1878, the last of June, 1878, and I have 
been there since, about five years. In all it is about fourteen 
years and a half I have been there. 
Q. About fourteen years and a half, and commencing with 
1860? A. Yes, sir. • 
Q. Well, now, during these fourteen years, at the three dif- 
ferent times which you have been at the institution, has there 
been any substantial change in the quality of the food or the 
character of its preparation, and, if there has been, state what 
it is? A. Well, I don’t know that there has been much 
change as far as well people are concerned, not much of a 
change, but there has been a change amongst the hospital sick. 
Their living is better than it used to be back in 1860. 
Q. Back in 1860? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, you say you don’t think there has been much 
change among the well people ; if there has been any' 1 want 
you to state what it is. A. Well, I don’t know ; I think their 
food is just •iabout the same ; I don’t know as there is any differ- 
ence in it. It was very good then and about the same now. 
Q. Was the bread good iu 1860? A. Yes, sir; it was 
pretty good. 
Q. Well, now, we have heard a good deal said about soup 
which was so thin you could not see any meat in it, and no indi- 
cation that there had ever been any meat in it; did you ever 
make any such soup as that? A. 1 don’t calculate there shall 
be much meat in it. The soup we make, — we cook the meat, 
and then take the meat out and carve it off from the bone, and 
it is put in pans, and that is served out. Then the water that 
this meat is cooked in, — there are some particles of meat, of 
course, iu it, but not much ; we don’t calculate to have much, 
for we take it pretty much ail out, — then we put vegetables iu 
the water, — the tea, beef tea, you might say, — vegetables and 
rice and bread, and then we put in a flour batter, which gives it 
a little body ; and I most always, through the hot weather, skim 
it a little, for there is so much meat and so many marrow bones 
and so forth, there is so much fatty substance on it it is too rich 
for them in hot weather; that class of people are subject to 
diarrhoea if their food is too much of a greasy nature, so I skim 
it a little, but not in the winter time, cold weather. 2108 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr, 
Q. It is always done that way, is it? A. Yes, sir ; I don’t 
see how it could be made any better. 
Q. That is the way soups are made in all the first-class 
hotels, is it not? 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment; let us see how much he has 
cooked in first-class hotels. 
Q. If you know anything about it. A. 1 don’t know. 
Q. You don't know ; you are not acquainted? A. No, sir. 
Q. That has been your invariable practice during the sum- 
mer months, to skim off the fat? A. Some of it; not all of it. 
Q. Not all of it? A. No, sir ; not more than half, through 
the warm weather. 
Q. And that, you say, is to prevent sickness? A. Yes, 
sir; it would not do for them to eat it all; if I didn’t take off 
some it would be apt to make sickness. It has done it; so I 
take off a little through the hottest months. 
Q. Have you ever received any instructions in that regard 
from the medical department of the institution? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When? A. Why, about the first of nyy going there 
the doctor spoke to me, the head physician, about it, through 
the summer months, July and August; the hottest weather. 
Q. Do you recollect the name of that physician ? A. Well, 
Dr. Lathrop spoke to me, wished me to skim it a little, and not 
use too much grease, greasy nature, through the hottest months. 
Q. Now, Mr. Barnard, have you ever made anj’ estimate in 
your ordinary cooking, where you have five or six hundred 
pounds of meat, to see how much waste, bone, etc., there is in 
the meat? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Will you state what your experiment was? A. Well, 
I always- found that there was about 25 per cent., about one- 
quarter bone. 
Q. Does that run through the animal; in using the entire 
animal, that you find to be the percentage, about? A. Well, 
such pieces as we have; we most always have about such 
pieces for soup. 
Gov. Butler. Is he now speaking of the whole meat or only 
that which he has for soups? 
Mr. Brown. That is what I want to find out. 
Q Is that limited to such meat as you use for soup, or does 
it applv to all the meat you use? A. All the meat I use, — 
corned beef, and fresh beef for soup. I have weighed the bones 1883.] 
HOUSE —Np. 300. 
2109 
a good many times in years past just to see what the bones 
weighed, and T always found it was about one-quarter part bone. 
Q. One-quarter part bone by weight? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Barnard, I want you to state, commence with 
Monday, and tell us what you have cooked in that institution 
for the inmates on each day right through the week? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Commencing with Monday. A. Yes, sir. Well, sir, I 
don’t always have the same; I vary some; sometimes have 
some vegetables, but most of the time I cook rice Monday, and 
corned beef; have a sauce made to eat on the rice, — corned 
beef and rice. 
Q. Any vegetables? A No, sir; sometimes, instead of 
rice, I. will have vegetables,—perhaps cabbage and corned 
beef. 
Q. The bread is not cooked in your department, is it? A 
No, sir ; that is in the bakery 
Q. Now, as to the character of the corned beef; is it good, 
wholesome corned beef? A. It is good beef. 
Q. Did you ever cook any corned beef which was so salt it 
could not be eaten by anybody? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever see an}7 there at the institution of that char- 
acter? A. We always took it out a da}7 or two beforehand 
and put it to soak to freshen it. 
Q. You always do that? A. Yes, sir; always. 
Q. And then cook it. A. Well, now, a dav beforehand I 
always take the meat out and put it to soak to freshen it, and 
cook it the next day. It is not very salt; perhaps it would be 
too salt,— I have no doubt it would, — if I didn’t freshen it, but 
I always freshen it before cooking. 
Q. Well, now, take the sauce which you have for the rice; 
how do you make that? A. I make a sauce about one-half — 
no, about one-third water, one-third molasses, and one-third 
flour batter, and then put in, perhaps, a couple quarts, — about 
a couple quarts of sharp vinegar to give it a little lively taste ; 
that is the sauce I make. 
Gov. Butler. A couple quarts of what? 
Mr. Brown. Vinegar. 
The Witness. That makes it a little mite acid ; they like it 
better. 
Q. What else do you have for sauce for Monday? A. This 
is Tuesday; I don’t make any other sauce for Monday. 2110 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What do you have for breakfast Monday ? A. We have 
bread and coffee for breakfast, and bread and tea for supper 
every day. 
Q. And this is for dinner? A. This is for dinner. 
Q. Now, take Tuesday, what do you have? A. Tues lay’s 
dinner is fresh fish, bread, and a sauce. 
Q. Now, I want to know, Mr. Barnard, have you beeu in 
the habit of cooking stinking fish on Tuesday, or any other day in 
the week ; fresh fish? A. No, sir ; no recollection of ever cook- 
ing a mite since 1 have been there. 
Q. That is what I was going to ask you : did you ever cook 
a mite of stinking fish since you have been there? A. Not a 
mite. 
Q,. What do you have on Tuesday with the fish? A. Have 
potatoes and a sauce and bread. 
Q. How do you make 3’our sauce? A. That sauce is 
made, — I put in about half water, and I use about ten pounds 
of the beef skimmings. I always, after cooking the beef, take 
the skimmings off, and J always keep the best of it for m3' 
gravy, sauce, etc. 
Q. Have a refrigerator to put it in in hot weather? A. 
Yes, sir, and plenty of ice ; and 1 use about ten pounds of this 
beef skimming and a flour batter, and season it; that is all. 
Q. Now, this fish; what kind of fish is it? A. This is 
fresh fish ; it is mostty cod and haddock. 
Q. How does it come ? A. It comes in barrels. 
Q. I11 barrels? A. Packed in ice. 
Q. Where from, so far as 3-011 know? A. I think it comes 
from Salem. 
Q. Packed in ice, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Through the hot weather, do you find it, well 
preserved? A. I do ; oh, yes, sir; it is all right. There is 
alwa3's plenty of ice in it when I take it out. 
Q. Now. take Wednesday ; what do you have on Wednes- 
day? A. Wednesday we have fresh beef soup. 
Q. Fresh beef soup? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Just tell 11s how you make that soup? A. Well, sir, 
we put the meat in,—we have about 600 pounds. 
Q. Six hundred pounds? A. Yes, sir; put. it in two large 
boilers that hold about 160 gallons each, — put about an equal 
half in each boiler, and boil it. After it is well done, we take 
it out in tubs, and move it up to the tables, and take it all up 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2111 
on the table3 and carve it, the meat from the bones, and put it 
in pans. Well, then, that water that that beef is cooked in,— 
tea,—we make the soup of; put in so much rice, so many vege- 
tables, and so much bread cut up fine. 
Gov. Butler. The same soup he told us about before. 
The Witness. Yes, sir; just the same. 
Q. The same you told us about before ? A. Yes. 
Q. How is that served? A. That is taken out at dinner 
time in our dining-hall, where our men dine ; that is carried in 
there in cans, and turned iuto bowls ; there is a plate set on the 
table, and a row of bowls, and the bowls are filled with that 
soup, and the meat is put on the plate ; and they come from the 
other wards, and the hospital and the insane asylum, and other 
wards,—they come and get it as they want it. 
Q. Breakfast and supper as before? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Tell us what you have Thursday ? A. I am in the habit 
of having pea soup, most of the time, Thursday. Sometimes I 
have vegetables through the summer time, when there is corn 
and other vegetables ; I have it instead of pea soup; but, 
through the winter, I have pea soup, generally, and corned, 
beef. 
Q. And corned beef? A. Corned beef; and I will further 
say that is for the well people ; but I cook 200 pounds ot 
fresh beef,—roast beef,—roast that ever}’ Thursday for the hos- 
pital and insane asylum. That goes there ; the hospitals don’t 
get any of this corned beef. 
Q. Now, as to your pea soup ; how do you make that? A. 
Well, I use about a bushel and a half o.f peas for pea soup. I 
make something like 125 gallons, I should say. I put these 
peas in, wash them the night beforehand, or afternoon, and put 
them in and soak them, and let them swell over night, and then 
boil them ; put the steam on and boil them the next da}r, boil 
them till I get them well pulverized ; and then I put in,— cut 
up pork fine and put in small pieces. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Put in what? A. Pork, fine 
pieces ; small pieces of pork to enrich it. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) How many pounds of pork would 
you put in to a bushel and a half of peas? A. Sometimes I 
put in some beef shimmings. I never weighed it, but I should 
judge there might be twenty pounds or so. After the peas get 
well pulverized, well cooked, then I can fill it up, you know, as 
you want it. The soup,— you don’t want it too thick. 2112 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
Apr. 
Q. But the soup, when it is finished, is it of pretty good 
consistency? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. It is not so thin you can see through it? A. Oh, no, 
sir; no, sir. It is pretty thick ; pretty good thickness; always 
considerable peas you can find in the bottom of each bowl, al- 
ways, where we turn it out. 
Q. Now, take Friday ; what do you have on Frida}7? A. 
Friday is a day when we have salt fish and potatoes. 
Q. What kind of fish is that? A. It is mostly pollock, al- 
though the superintendent has, for two or three years past, 
bought considerable of this boneless fish, put up in boxes, half 
a ton or a ton in a box. 
Q. That is codfish, is it? A. That is mostly codfish ; a 
pretty nice fish. 
Q. Called “Cape Cod turkey.” Well, what do you have 
with your salt fish? A. I have the same sauce that I have with 
the fresh fish. 
Q. Made in the same way? A The same way, sir. 
Q. What else? A. In the winter time we cook vegetables, 
etc., beets, with salt fish. I cooked some fifty or sixty bushels 
of beets this last winter, with vinegar. They go very well with 
salt fish. 
Q. Saturday? A. Saturday I have pea soup again; we 
have it twice a week, Wednesdays and Saturdays. 
Q. Now, take Sunday? A. Sunday we have baked beans. 
Q,. In the morning or at noon? A. At noon. 
Q. At noon? A. At noon, sir. 
Q. Did you know Cornelius H. O’Brien? A. I knew there 
was a man there by that name. 
Q. Did you ever see him at the table at his meals? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever observe any lack of appetite? A. Why, 
no, sir ; I always noticed that he ate very well. 
Q. The quality of the food didn’t seem to trouble him, did 
it? A. No, sir; he took hold of it well; I never saw any 
trouble. 
Q. Now, do you cook in your same kitchen, for the hospital, 
other things except roast beef? A. No, sir; there is a little 
kitchen adjoining mine where they cook for the hospitals. 
Q. Do you have charge of that? A. No. sir; there is 
another gentleman has charge of that. 
Q. What is his name? A. Ilis name is Barrett, — no, ,1 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2113 
mean Hale ; I don’t know what his given name is, but T think 
it is Merritt Hale ; I won’t be positive about that. 
Q. Now, I want you to tell me whether, during any period 
when you have been connected with this institution, you have 
ever cooked any unwholesome meat or fish, or other kind of 
food? A. No, sir. 
Q. To be served to these inmates? A.. No, sir; I never 
have. 
Q. Is the officers’ table, that is, the table where the attend- 
ants take their meals, — is that supplied from your kitchen at 
all? A. No, sir; only some bread taken over there, some- 
time, our bread. 
Gov. Butler. That is the baker’s department. 
Q. That is the baker’s department; but whether or no you 
supply them at any time with soup for their table? A. No, 
sir ; I don’t know, — well, a few }’ears ago they used to come, 
sometimes, and want a little, sometimes, sir, pea soup, and 
sometimes some beef soup ; but recently they haven’t; lately. 
Q. You have all the necessary apparatus for cooking there 
in large quantities? A. Yes, sir; everything. 
Q. Now, do you prepare the tea and coffee, or is it pre- 
pared under your direction ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What kind of coffee do you use? A. Well, sir, T 
don’t know as I could tell you the name, it is the real coffee 
bean burnt, and I grind it every day as we use it; but as to 
the name of the coffee, I don’t know as I can tell you. 
Q. Do 3’ou burn it and grind it right there? A. No, sir; 
it is already burned when it is brought, but I grind it. 
Q. So that it comes in the bean and you know you have 
coffee? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. It is not chickory ? A. No, sir ; it is pure coffee, and 
one of my men grinds it ever}’ day as we use it. 
Q. Now, what quantity of coffee do you use each day? A. 
Well, sir, I have 18 pounds ; I use for my use 15 pounds, and 
three pounds goes to the hospital, the cook-room. I use 15 
pounds. 
Q. In how many gallons of water? A. Well, sir, I am 
using about 120 gallons, now. 
Q. Fifteen pounds of coffee? A. Yes, sir ; not quite 120 
perhaps, 115. When I put in the milk, after I put in the milk, 
it brings it up to about 120 gallons, 2114 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. How many gallons of inilk? A. Well, there is about 
thirty quarts I put in. 
Q. Do you put the milk in before it is served? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. How much sugar? A. Put in sugar and milk. 
Q. How much sugar in the 120 gallons? A. We are 
using fifteen pounds of sugar through the summer months ; in 
the winter time we use about twenty. 
Q. Now, do you prepare coffee twice a day? A. Each 
time. 
Q. Twice a day? A. No, sir ; coffee a. breakfast. 
Q. Coffee at breakfast, tea at night? A. Yes. 
Q. Do you have coffee or tea at noon? A. No, sir; we 
have water. 
Q. Now, Mr. Barnard, 1 want you to bring down here to- 
morrow morning a quart bottle of that coffee prepared in the 
regular way; you will remember that, will you? A. Quart 
bottle ? 
Q. Filled with the coffee prepared in the regular way as 
j7ou have described. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Will you see that is done? A. Yes, sir ; of the coffee. 
Q. The coffee. Now, we will come to the tea; what kind 
of tea do you use? Q. Well, it is a black tea, and a green 
tea, about half and half, mixed. 
Q. How much tea do you use? A. Seven pounds. 
Q. Seven pounds to how many gallons of water? A. 
About the same quantity of water. 
Q. The same quantity of water as for the coffee. A. 
Seven pounds of tea through the summer months ; in the win- 
ter time we usually have about ten pounds. 
Q. Do you put the milk into the tea before it is served to 
the inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. This is skim milk, is it? A. No, sir ; no, sir. 
Q. Skim milk? A. No, sir; the cream is on it; we don’t 
skim any. 
Q. Good milk? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. I want you to bring down another quart bottle of that 
tea, if you will, to-morrow morning. A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. The governor and I will have a little tea- 
party. 
Q1,. Now, is there any other article which you cook in that 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2115 
kitchen of yours which you haven’t named? A. I cook some 
greens for a change, such as spinach and dandelions. 
Q. And those are served to the inmates? A. Yes, sir ; we 
didn’t get a great many at a time, so I let them go around to 
the hospitals, among the sick ones, and the old men’s ward. 
Q. Any other article of food that I have not called to your 
attention that you cooked there? A. Well, when it is a bear- 
ing year, and apples are plenty, we make a good deal of apple 
sauce. 
Q. That is served to inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, when it is not a bearing year? A. Well, we give 
them out; when we have apples we give them out to be eaten 
in a raw state. In 1880 there wras plenty of apples. It was a 
great bearing year, and we used one hundred barrels of apples 
for apple sauce. We made it ten weeks, ten barrels each week, 
of apple sauce for the inmates. Served all round. 
Q. In a bearing year there are plenty of apples there? A. 
Yes ; I give out a great many to be eaten in a raw state. Since 
then, they have not been plenty enough so I could make much 
apple sauce. 
Q. Well, any other article of food? A. Tomatoes. Sev- 
eral years I have made sauce of tomatoes. 
Q. Tomatoes grown on the place? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Any other article of food? A. Melons. 
Q. Grown on the place? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What else? A. Cucumbers and such kind of veget- 
ables ; plenty of those in the summer season. 
Q. What else? Anything else that you recollect? A. 
Well, sir, I don’t know as I think of anything else now. 
Mr. Brown. Your witness, Governor. 
Gov. Bdtler. Decidedly so. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. You were there in 1862,1 believe? A. Yes, sir. I left 
there in 1862. 
Q. What time? A. I left the first of September, 1862. 
Q. Well, the crops were pretty well grown then. Well, 
now, there is something you must have left out here. I hold in 
my hand the report for 1862. I see you haven’t given us any 
potatoes in all this? A. Well, I spoke about them. I said 
potatoes once, and afterwards I didn’t think anything about 
jdjem, 2116 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr 
Q. You thought about it. but you didn’t say anything about 
it? A. I spoke of it once. Potatoes, T said ; and afterwards 
I didn’t mention it. We cooked potatoes. 
Q. You gave them one or two potatoes, I suppose, with the 
corned beef? A. Well, we cooked potatoes fish days — the 
two fish days. 
Q. Didn’t you cook potatoes on corned beef days? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Well, on the fish days, you gave potatoes? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Do you mean with salt fish? A. Salt and fresh fish 
days, Tuesday and Friday, potatoes. 
Q. Now, I find here, in the first place, that they raised on the 
farm thirty-two tons of carrots. Did you get any of those ? 
A. Yes, sir ; we cut up carrots to put into the soup. 
Q. And then, thirty-seven tons of beets? A. I cooked a 
great many beets during the winter. 
Q. Then 2,165 bushels of potatoes? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then here is a whole acre of sweet corn ; what became 
of that? The inmates didn’t get it? A. Oh, I cooked sweet 
corn. 
Q. I told you to tell me— A. I said in the summer sea- 
son I omitted the soup, and cooked corn. 
Q. Well, here I cannot be Avrong ; 16,260 heads of cabbage. 
You haven’t said cabbage once. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon ; he said he cooked cabbage. 
The Witness. T said I sometimes cooked cabbage Mondays ; 
on Mondays instead of rice, and sometimes on Thursday. 
Q. Well, what did you do with all these 16,260 heads of 
cabbage, only giving them on Monday or Thursday instead of 
rice? A. Well, sir, we cook them right straight along in the 
winter season, once a iveek. 
Q. What day was that? A. And I have done such a thing 
as cook them twice a Aveek. 
Q. What day was that ? A. Mondays. 
Q. Well, now, here was one hundred bushels of English 
turnips. What became of those? A. Well, I cooked those. 
Those came in with the vegetables. I cooked them ; put them 
in the soup. 
Q. Here were 137 bushels of onions? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What was done with them? A. T cooked them at; 
times. I always put some in our soups too. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2117 
Q. Then there was 11,500 pounds squash; what was done 
with that? You haven’t said squash, I know. A. Well, I 
cooked the squash. 
Q. I know ; you remember that you did it all as soon as I 
ask you. You swore just now, you told Mr. Brown you had told 
everything? A. That didn’t come into my mind. 
Q. Now, there were 213 bushels of barle}\ What was done 
with that? A. I don’t know. 
Q. What was done with 30 bushels of beans? Those were 
cooked? A. I cooked beans. 
Q. Now, then, that was in 18.62 ; 16,260 heads of cabbage 
— did you buy any cabbage for that establishment? A. Did I 
what? 
Q. Did they buy any cabbage for that establishment? A. 
No, sir; not that I know of. I went away in September, 1862. 
Q. Now, will you come to a time when you do know about 
it. Let us see how much cabbage you cooked this year, if you 
didn’t buy any. They raised on the farm a lot of English hay, 
second crop, rye straw and corn ensilage — that didn’t go into 
the kitchen. Well, now, then, they had 11,500 pounds of 
squash in 1862, and in 1882 they had only t°ns °f squash ; 
that shows they were short of squash last year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You had 65 bushels of rye, 2,000 bushels of potatoes, 
87 bushels of turnips, 60 bushels of carrots, 82 bushels of 
onions, 120 bushels of beets, 41 bushels of peas, 47 bushels of 
beans, 67 bushels of corn, 71 bushels of tomatoes, 50 bushels 
of parsnips, and you had no cabbage —yes, you had ; you had 
300 red cabbages. You didn’t cook those much? A. No, 
sir ; I didn’t use those. 
Q. Now, here is a farm and uot a cabbage raised on it last 
year. Then you didn’t cook any last year? A. No, sir; I 
didn’t cook any last year. 
Q. No cabbages last3’ear ; but in 1862 they had 16,260 heads 
of cabbage for the inmates. Corned beef and cabbage is pretty 
good living. But this year they had only three hundred heads 
of red cabbage. Well, they had 1,800 heads of celery last 
year ; did you cook any of that? A. Well, sir, 1 cut up some 
and put into soup. 
Q. They had 400 heads of cauliflower. Did you put that 
into soup? A. 1 cut up a good deal of that and put it into 
soup. 2118 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did you last yrear? A. Yes, sir. Cut it up, and it 
makes a very nice vegetable. 
Q. I understand it does — a very nice vegetable. And the 
way to use it is to cut it up and put it into soup ; is that so? 
Do you know any other establishment where they have that way 
of cooking cauliflower? A. Well, I didn’t have enough of it 
to cook it for the inmates. 
Q. And therefore, only having a little of it, you thought you 
would use it where it would do the least good? Did you cut 
that cauliflower up last year and put it into soup? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. How much? A. What the gardener brought in. There 
was a considerable little mess of it; I can’t tell just how much. 
He asked me a number of times if I would have some, and I 
told him yes, and he would bring it in or send it in. 
Q. Then there was 2,500 asparagus roots. You had aspa- 
ragus? A. Yes, sir ; we raised some ; we used to have some. 
Q. And did you cut up asparagus and put it into soup? A. 
No, sir ; didn’t use any. 
Q. Now, sir, did you make any sauce out of 159 quarts of 
currants? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you make any7 sauce out of 79 quarts of gooseber- 
ries? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you make auyT sauce out of 667 quarts of strawber- 
ries? A. No, sir. 
Q. How many times did you have melons last yrear, that 
went to the inmates? A. Well, I had them some three or four 
times ; 1 don’t exactly7 remember. 
Q. How manyr did yTou have? A. Well, I don’t know ; it 
takes about a cartload to go around. They had some three or 
four times a year. 
Q. I should think they would. They7 had 1,900 melons. 
Well, yrou didn’t have anything to do with the potted plants 
and the cuttings, I suppose? A. No, sir; that is out of myr 
line. 
Q. Who carried on that little greenhouse — no, not little, 
but that greenhouse? A. Well, it is a gardner we have there 
by the name of Fitzgerald. 
Q. Didn’t Charles Marsh have something to do with it? A. 
Well, not without he has charge of it. He has a little some- 
thing to do with it, I suppose. HOUSE —No. 300. 
1883.] 
2119 
Q. What makes you suppose so? A. Well, he goes there 
occasionally ; he don’t do any work. 
Q. Oh, no; I don’t think he ever did. Now, didn’t he — 
didn’t you see flowers sent away? A. No, sir; I never saw 
any. 
Q. Ever see any potted plants, bulbs and those things sent 
away ? A. I cannot say that I ever saw any sent away. 
Q. Well, now, I want to ask 3011 a little about the food. 
You have been asked about the food. There never was an 
instance while you were there, when by any accident there was 
an}’ tainted meat out of all the thousands of barrels that were 
bought? There never happened to be any accident by which 
any tainted meat got into that institution ? A. I never cooked 
any’ tainted meat. 
Q. I don’t ask whether you cooked it or not; I will come 
first to whether it got there. Was there any tainted meat in 
those barrels? A. I recollect I unheaded a barrel of beef— 
I unheaded it all myself— and I took the head out of one bar- 
rel and it smelled a little tainted. I spoke to the superintend- 
ent about it, and he told me to put the head in again and he 
would send it right back to Boston. 1 don’t recollect of any 
other instance. 
Q. Never but once. When was that? A. I cannot tell, 
but I should say it must have been some three or four years 
ago. 
Q. Once it did happen by accident that you got a tainted 
barrel? A. Yes ; a barrel of beef; the barrel smelled very 
bad, and he told me to put the he'ad back again and he would 
send it back. 
Q. Whom did he get his beef of? A. I could not tell who 
he buys of. 
Q. What kind does he buy ; the best beef? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What kind? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. What, a cook and not know what kind of salt beef you 
are cooking? A. Well, it is good beef. 
Q. I know it is good, but in relative terms beef is classed, 
as I happen to know. I don’t expect it was prime mess, and 
you say it was not mess ; what was it? you ought to know. A. 
I don’t mind as long as it is good beef. 
Q. Pardon me ; don’t you know, whether it was good or 
not, what class it was? A. No, sir; I don't. 
Q. Now you swear that all this time the beef came in bar- 2120 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
rels and was branded, and you don’t know what kind of beef it 
was ; was it inspected beef at all? A. As long as it was good 
] don’t mind. 
Q. Was it inspected beef at all? A. What say? 
Q. Was it inspected beef at all ? A. 1 could not tell you. 
Q. Didn’t you see the inspection markon the barrel? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Then, so far as you know, it was all refuse beef that the 
inspector refused to pass? A. I know it was all good beef. 
Q. I know ; it was very good, but for some reason it was 
not inspected ? A. It might have been, but I didn’t see. I 
didn’t look. 
Q. Now will you tell me another thing about that beef? 
When you say7 one quarter part was bone, was that so in the 
barrelled beef? A. Well, it was about the same; there was 
not much difference. 
Q. Well, 1 don’t want to know whether it was different from 
anything ; was this barrel beef that was bought or purchased 
there one-quarter bone ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know that that is the very7 poorest quality7 of 
beef that has that quantity7 of bone in it, and the most un- 
economical to buy ? You know enough to know that, cer- 
tainly7. A. Well, it was very good beef. 
Q. 1 understand. You have told me how good that beef 
was a great many times. If any7 of us believe you we shall 
believe that. But now 1 want to know whether you don’t know 
that it is only the poorest and coarsest beef that is put up with 
a quarter of it bone? What bones were in it? Don’t you know 
that? A. No, sir; I don’t know as I do. 
Q. Don’t know that you do ? A. No, sir ; I haven’t studied 
into these things very deeply7. 
Q. You have been using it all the while for fourteen years? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you don’t know whether it is the poorest beef that 
is put up in that way — and you are a Yankee, I trust? A. 
Weil, I — 
Q. You claim to be? A. I claim that I am. 
You were born in Andover? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All right, both by birth and theology. Now, don’t you 
know enough to know what kind of beef that was you were 
using? A. Well, 1 know it was good beef. 1883.] 
MOUSE —No. 300. 
2121 
Q. Pardon me ; you need not tell me that again. A. I 
didn’t study anything else. 
Q. Well, very well; you didn’t stiuly. What study did it 
take to tell what class of beef you are using? Well, now, 
again, what kind of pork — did you buy your pork there? A. 
No, sir ; raised it. 
Q. You used to salt pork there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Always salted it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Salt it last year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who salted it; you ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know they sold it last year? A. We salted 
up what we wanted for our own use. 
Q. How much did you salt up? A. Well, we salted up 
some fifty barrels, I should judge. 
Q. About lift}' barrels; and sold how many thousand 
pounds? A. I am sure I could not tell you. 
Q. Well, that I shall get somewhere else. Now, when you 
bought your beef, your fresh beef, — did you kill it on the place 
or buy it? A. Buy it, sir. 
Q. Whom do you buy it of? A. It comes from Boston. 
Q. Came out from Boston. How did it come? A. It 
comes in boxes. 
Q. In what form? A. Three-large boxes. 
Q. Would you have the whole quarter? A. It would be 
ciit up in pieces and put into those three boxes. 
Q. Would it be the whole quarter of a beef? A. No, sir; 
not always a whole quarter. Some necks, and there was one 
shin to every hundred pounds. 
Q. What? A. One shin to each hundred pounds. 
Q. One skin to each hundred pounds? A. Yes, sir; one 
shin to each hundred pounds of beef; that makes six shins to 
six hundred pounds of beef that we have — neck pieces, chucks, 
and shoulder pieces. 
Q. Now, by skins you don’t mean hides? A. Shins. 
Q. Because that would be too large a proportion ; hides are 
too valuable. Now, what do you mean? What were the parts 
of the creature were there? A. Well, I had the neck. 
Gov. Butler. That is one. 
The Witness. Shoulder pieces. 
Gov. Butler. That is two. 
The Witness. Shins; and there are some other pieces 
about the “ cretur ” I don’t know. I never worked butchering, 2122 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr, 
and I don’t know enough about the “cretur” to name ever}’ 
piece. 
Q. Well, some other parts of the beef that in fourteen 
3rears’ experience you haven’t learned to name. Whereabouts 
would it grow on the crittur,” whatever the name was? Had 
it the bone in it? A. Well, it all has bone in it— neck pieces 
and shoulder pieces. 
Q. Shoulder pieces and neck pieces? A. And sometimes 
rib pieces and flank pieces. 
Q. Ver}r well; then all that you know is, the pieces of the 
creature with bone in it? A. Yes, sir ; all has bone in it. 
Q. And one-quarter of it bone? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And, unfortunately, that is the same kind they put up in 
these barrels, that is salted. Now, then, you took a quantity 
of this — about how much would the creature weigh that these 
pieces were taken from? A. Well, it was large, coarse beef; 
ox beef, I should judge. 
Q. Now you took 100 pounds — I suppose it was very fat 
beef? A. It was very fat; it was very good beef. 
Q. Now you would take 100 pounds of that to boil for fresh 
beef? A. 600 pounds, bone and all, we are having now. 
Q. Bone and all? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And 3’ou would boil that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long? A. Well, it takes from two hours and a 
half to three hours ; it depends on how smart the steam is. 
Q. Then }’Ou would take it out? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And skim it? A. Skim it in the summer season, ver}' 
hot weather ; skim it a little. 
Q. Never skim it unless in hot weather? A. Hardly ever 
do, unless it is very fat, except in hot weather. 
Q. What would you do with the skimmings? A. Well, 
sir, I keep those skimmings; the baker uses considera- 
ble of them. 
Q. And he uses it for shortening? A. He uses it for 
greasing his pans. 
Q. Well, the baker would use them, and you would make 
your sauce out of that skimmings? A. Yes, sir ; some of it. 
Q. And 3rou would use it for what else ? A. Well, there 
wouldn’t be much left, anywa}'. 
Q. I don’t ask whether there was much left. Is there any 
left except what you and the baker use? A. Well, I keep 
what there is left; sometimes the farmers want some. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2123 
Q. Who? A. The farmers outside ; sometimes they want 
it for their carriages. 
Q. And the rest would serve for wheel-grease. Now, hav- 
ing done that, and only skimming in the summer, what did the 
farmers and the baker and you do when you didn’t skim it in 
the winter? A. I alwaj'S skim the corned beef when I cook 
it. There is a scum comes off of it, and the water of corned 
beef has it on. 
Q. What? A. The water of corned beef has this scum 
on it, so I always take it off. 
Q. Then you always skim the corned beef? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that all they had for soup would be what was left 
after the grease was taken off and the meat was taken out? 
A. They don’t make any soup out of corned beef. 
Q. Never? A. Never. When we cook that we take the 
scum off and throw the water away. 
Q. Then all they had for soup was this one boiling of beef 
in a week? A. Two boilings, Wednesday and Saturday ; GOO 
pounds each day. 
Q. Well, I think we get how that was done. I want to ask 
you about another question a little. Did you ever know any- 
thing about any bodies being carried away? A. Nothing 
more than I have heard. 
Q. I didn’t ask you if you took them. How long ago did 
you hear about it? A. Well, I have not heard of it until 
within two or three years, perhaps. 
Q. Whom did you hear about it from ? A. I am sure I 
could not tell 3’ou. 
Q. Some of the inmates talked about it among themselves? 
A. Yes; I have heard it among the inmates. I didn’t mind 
much about it. 
Q. Do you sa}T you didn’t hear of it until after you went 
there a second time, in 1871 ? A. No, sir ; I have no recollec- 
tion of ever hearing it. 
Q. Did you ever attend a funeral while you were there? A. 
No, sir ; I never did. 
Q. Did you ever know of anjbody who ever did? A. I 
could not say for certainty ; I think there are some of them that 
have. 
Q. You cannot give the name of anybody that ever did? 
A. No, sir, I cannot. 2124 
CHARITABLE INSTITIJ MONTS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did you know Mr. Manning? A. Yes, sir; I was 
some acquainted with him. 
Q. Knew him quite well, didn’t you? A. Some. 
Q. Do you know what his business was? A. lie was a 
farmer. 
Q. Didn’t you know he was in the transportation business? 
A. Yes; I have heard that he was, but I never heard him 
say that he was in it. 
Q. Well, it was common talk, was it not, about his being in 
the transportation business? A. I never heard much about his 
business until now, lately. 
Q. Well, within three or four years. Did you. ever know of 
anybody getting hurt? A. I don’t recollect of anybody getting 
hurt, unless one. I heard of one man getting hurt, outside 
there on the farm, by some insane man. I have no recollection 
of hearing of anybody else. 
Q. Now, during all those years everybody was satisfied with 
what the}T had to eat? A.. Yes, sir; everybody as well satis- 
fied as you could get them. 
Q. I want to know if they were all perfectly satisfied? A. 
I guess the}' were. 
Q. What? A. I guess they were pretty well satisfied. 
Q. I don’t want an}' guess-work. Were they satisfied? 
Ever anybody make complaint? A. Hardly ever hear anyone. 
Q. Ever complain that the soup was a little thin? A. No, 
sir ; I never heard any one complain about that. I have not 
heard a great many complaints about it. 
Q. I am now asking you — it was so rich that you had to 
skim it to bring it down to the standard pitch. Now, did ever 
anybody complain ? A. I never heard anybody ever complain. 
Q. Did you hear of anybody? A. I don’t know that I 
ever did. 
Q. Did they complain of the meat? A. No, sir; they got 
plenty of it. 
Q. I have no doubt they did. Did they ever complain of 
the quantity or quality of the fish? A. Well, I never heard 
them myself. 
Q. They didn’t come to you. You are not the man, 1 sup- 
pose, to buy it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you hear complaints about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then why did you say you never heard yourself? A. I 
never heard of any complaint, that I know of, about the fish. 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2125 
Q. And there was never any complaint about the coffee? A. 
There could not have been much complaint. Sometimes they 
would have a little something to say ; they always did. 
Q. They always have a little something to say, I know ; but 
does that apply to everything—always a little something to say? 
A. 1 don’t think I ever heard much about the food. 
Q. Now, this coffee was burnt coffee? A. Yes, sir ; it was 
burnt. 
Q. You have been cook for a good while. Did you ever hear 
of the fact -that when coffee gets damaged by salt water, they 
take it and burn it and sell it? A. I have heard of such things, 
but I don’t think there was anything of that kind. 
Q. Why not; could you tell? A. It smells good, and 
tastes good, in the raw state. 
Q. You never take it raw? A. We taste of it before it is 
cooked. 
Q. You mean in a burnt state? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The raw, burnt state. Well, now, how much coffee 
would be bought at a time there? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. A good many hundred pounds ? A. A number of hun- 
dred pounds ; but I don’t go to the store-house ; I don’t know, 
and I don’t ask those questions. 
Q. Who brings it to you? A. It is brought from the store 
to me. 
Q. By whom? A. Well, Col. Tripp weighs it out now. 
Q. Who? A. Col. Tripp wnighs it now. 
Q. I understand what Col. Tripp does now. He is a new 
man we have got there. Until Col. Tripp got there, was it ever 
weighed to you? A. Weighed to what, sir? 
Q. Ever weighed to you? A. Yes, sir; that is what the}” 
said ; it was always weighed. 
Q. Did you ever see it weighed? A. No, sir; I was not 
there when it was weighed. 
Q. Who did the weighing? A. It was Joe Howard, — the 
man they call French Joe ; he did the business. 
Q. He had charge of the weighing; and if it was weighed, 
he weighed it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And we are to depend upon his honesty to know whether 
you got all you ought to have? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You never weighed after him? A. Well, I have. 
Q. What for, if you thought him honest? A. Well, I 
thought, for the sport of it, I would just do it, and see if it was 2126 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
just what he said it was. I always found it was about correct, 
what he said. 
Q. How many times did you weigh it, for the sport of it? 
A. Five or six times. 
Q. Five or six times you weighed it, for the sport of it. 
How was it about the tea; did 3*011 weigh that? Q. I have, 
sometimes. 
Q. Now, we have got sixteen pounds of coffee to how manyr 
gallons of water? A. About one hundred and twenty*. After 
I put the milk in, it makes one hundred and twenty. I guess it 
is one hundred and seventeen or one hundred and eighteen gal- 
lons of water. 
Q. One hundred and twent3T gallons of liquid ; about sixty 
pounds to the gallon, we have got 7,200 pounds of water to six- 
teen pounds of coffee. It would be a little thin, wouldn’t it? 
Just a trifle thin? A. Thirty quarts of milk. 
Q. I know; we put that in,—milk and water? A. And 
sugar. 
Q. That wouldn’t thicken the coffee much? A. No, sir; 
we don’t usually have coffee very thick. 
Q. What? A. Wc don’t generally have coffee very thick. 
Q. There would not be a great body of coffee, would there ? 
A. Sixteen pounds of coffee a day*. 
Q. Now, let us take the tea. How many gallons of tea did 
yrou make? A. Well, about the same. 
Q. That is, about 120 gallons of tea,—I would say*, 120 
gallons of water. Did you put milk into the tea? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Then, we have seven pounds of tea to that? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Then, we have a pound of tea to 1,000 pounds of water. 
It would not make the tea very strong? It didn’t usually keep 
them awake over night, did it? 
The Chairman. Dr. Tucker said it was not very strong. 
Mr. Brown. The coffee would be an ounce and a fraction to 
every quart of water. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I will have people here about that. I 
have gone into this thing before. 
Q. You made more of this in the winter? A. Yes, sir; 
we had more tea and more coffee. 
Q. What wages do you get, sir? A. Thirty-five dollars, 
and found. 1883.] 
house—No. 300. 
2127 
Q. Your wife is not there? A. No, sir; I am not mar- 
ried. 
Q. Won’t you tell me whether Mr. Crocker, the engineer, 
has been there all the time you have been there? A. Not all 
the time, because he was not there back in 1860. 
Q. He has been there ever since you came back there the 
two last times? A. I think he has. 
Q. Fifteen or twenty years. And his wife has been there ? 
A. She is not there now. 
Q. But until lately? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He is still there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you are still there ? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Now, I would not, when you bring that 
water with the coffee in it, in that proportion, to-morrow, don’t 
make it any stronger, because a little analysis will tell me, you 
know ; for the State assayer is handy. Now, look out for that 
tea and coffee. Seven pounds of tea to 120 gallons of water, 
and sixteen pounds of coffee to 120 gallons of water. 
The Witness. We make coffee in the morning and tea at 
night. If I come down to-morrow morning, how will I bring 
it? 
Mr. Brown. Take to-night’s tea. 
Gov. Butler. Then to-morrow morning you can fix the 
coffee. Can’t you cipher out that problem. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) A single question. You spoke of 
Mr. Tripp’s weighing out this coffee to }’ou. Is he the gentle- 
man who has been put in charge by the board of state chari- 
ties? A. Yes, sir; I suppose he is. 
Q. Under the new management? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He had a little bit of a fracas last week with one of the 
inmates, didn’t he ? Tell us about that. What was it? A. I 
am sure I don’t know. 
Q. You haven’t heard about it? A. Yes, but I was not 
there. 
Mr. Brown. Well, then, the governor would object to it. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You heard about that fracas, but 
you never heard about any other? A. No, sir. 2128 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Testimony of Charles M. Hanson (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. [Producing a book.] Look at that volume and tell me 
if that is part of the record —? A. Of our office? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that is Mr. Tripp’s handwriting? A. Yes, sir. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Do you know anything about how that record is made 
up? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You do not? A. Yes, sir ; I know how that is made up. 
Q. Were you present when it was made up? A. No, sir; 
but I can tell you his system of making up that record. 
Q. Suppose a father or mother should bring you a child, a 
young woman, would you take their statement of what her con- 
dition was, who she was, and how she was? A. The father’s 
statement? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Or the mother’s? A. I should say if the father and 
mother both came :— 
Q. Take either one of them? A. We should take the par- 
ents’ statement. 
Q. What? A. We should take the parents’ statement. 
Q. And therefore this statement may be the statement of 
the father, or the mother, or the person? A. No,, sir. 
Q. Why not? A. Because that record, as I understand it, 
was made at the State almshouse, and the father or mother could 
not have been present at that time. 
Q. How do you know? A. As a natural inference they 
were not there. 
Q. Why so? A. These are the histories of inmates. It 
might possibly have been so. 
Q. This statement you say was made at the State alms- 
house? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When is that taken ? A. The clerk usually goes up 
every week, ever}7 Monday, and takes the history of those in- 
mates that have come in there the week previous. It varies. 
Sometimes we don’t go on Monday, but sometimes go on Tues- 
day or Wednesday. 
Q. And it is the duty of somebody to take this statement? 
A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2129 
Q. And lie makes it up from what he can find out? A. 
Usually from the individual himself, or herself. Then he would 
verify that by any information he could obtain. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I desire to read this record. 
Gov. Butler. And I desire to object to that manner. 
Mr. Brown. What is the objection ? 
Gov. Butler. My objection is this: Here is a statement 
not under oath, purporting to be a statement made of the his- 
tory of a life ; not made in the language of the witness at all, but 
at most a recorded conversation. It is not evidence. It is like 
this: Born Feb. 9, 1859, Quincy, Mass.; when twelve 
years of age was adopted by William V. Bowen, of Portland, 
Maine. She, at that time, was living with uncle at Auburn, 
Maine.” Now, that is the history of past events, in the third 
person ; don’t purport to be a statement from her lips. It is 
not, I was born so and so, so and so, and so and so; and it is 
not evidence to contradict a witness in any way or form. There 
is no statute which requires this to be taken. It imparts no 
verity, whatever ; we have not the fact whether it was not taken 
from a third person. It certainly is the statement of a third 
person, whether it is taken from a third person or not. We 
know not from whom or under what circumstances it was taken. 
Where a record is required to be made by a clerk of a court, or 
a town clerk, then it purports to be something. But suppose 
this statement had been, that this was a stenographer’s notes of 
what was sworn to in court, it would not be taken in evidence, 
admitted in evidence, without producing the stenographer and 
letting him swear to what he knows, and that these things were 
said, by reference to his notes. This was not taken in short- 
hand. It was taken in long-hand — that is, apparently. For all 
these reasons I submit it is not evidence upon which anybody’s 
character shall be impeached. A part of it, indeed, is found 
to be exactly contrary to testimony that has been put in here br- 
others than Mary Eva Bowen. 
Mr. Brown. This volume is one of the volumes about which 
we have heard there was so much trouble in getting; demanded 
of us; and Ilis Excellency has taken occasion. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no, no, no. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon. It is kept at the institu- 
tion. Is Mr. Hanson gone? 
Gov. Butler. That is not kept in the institution. 
Mr. Brown. This is one of the volumes which has been pro- 2130 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
duced here, and His Excellency in three instances has read the 
record of three individuals upon statement made by him, and 1 
had been satisfied with the fact that the record was kept by Mr. 
Tripp, an officer of the board of state charities, whose duty it 
was to go to Tewksbury and interview every inmate whose his- 
tory he had not previously taken, and then take their history. 
And upon this being shown to this committee, on three different 
instances, this committee has allowed His Excellency to read 
this record ; not the record of this identical person, but the 
record kept in one of these books, kept subtantially as this is. 
Now, I simply asked last week to read another record, and I 
was met with the objection that I should not read it because 
they don’t know anything about who kept it, or in whose hand- 
writing it is. Now, to satisfy the committee, I have produced a 
witness who says it is in Mr. Tripp’s handwriting. I put it 
upon the same ground on which 1 put the books of the Char- 
don Street Home. We know how .this record was taken, by 
whom it was taken, and by whom it was kept; because it was 
the duty of a public officer to take it. The book is in evidence 
and has been in evidence for a long time. His Excellency has 
read from three different records here from this book, or others. 
I don’t now recollect. Hut the character of this record is estab- 
lished fully. It was a record that was taken back in 1875, on 
the 28th day of July, the fourth day after this woman was ad- 
mitted to this institution, she having been admitted on the 24th 
day of July. 
The Chairman. Been kept there since — that book. 
Mr. Brown. I understand so. Either there, or if not there, 
then down in the office of the state board of charities down-stairs. 
Gov. Butler. The difficulty is that you started off by say- 
ing that is a book produced here by the Tewksbury people. 1 
understand — and I will have it by Mr. Hanson if he comes 
back — that these books are not kept there. 
Mr. Brown. Suppose it was not. Suppose it is kept down- 
stairs here in the oflice of the board of state charities. What 
of it? This committee have allowed what was in this copy 
kept by the same man. Now, if it is material, I am perfectly 
willing to answer where that record is kept. 
Gov. Butler. I will ask him in a moment. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2131 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Is this book a part of your record, 
or of the records of Tewksbury ? A. Our record. 
Mr. Brown. Very well; I submit, for a stronger reason, that 
it ought to be in. 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment. 
Q. This is a copy ? A. This is the original book ; these 
are copied into these books [producing another book] and as 
a matter of convenience we send these [the originals] up to 
Tewksbury to be stored there. 
Q. For mere storage? A. That is all. Sometimes it is 
handy for them to refer to for the address of a friend. It is 
paid for out of our appropriation. 
Q. That is a transcript of the original record ? Have you 
a transcript of this particular record? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Look and see? A. I don’t know as it is in that book. 
Mr. Brown. It is No. 46448. Slip down and g'bt it. 
Gov. Butler. Why, it is the same thing, only a little farther 
removed. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Chairman, I offer this record. It 
is the record of Eva Bowen at the institution at Tewksbury and 
of her child. 
The Chairman. You offer it, I suppose, to show the condi- 
tion of her health, or something of that kind. 
Mr. Brown. I offer it for the purpose of contradicting her 
in regard to her statement as to her condition when she went 
there, the condition of her child, and the circumstances of her 
life as she told them here on the witness stand. 
Gov. Butler. You have it now fully, and the question is 
that this is not a record kept by law ; no record at all, but a 
memorandum, at most, of a conversation had with a man who is 
alive ; and this is his memorandum of it. And it purports to 
be a narration of past events, and it is. It is put in to contra- 
dict sworn testimony. Now, if the chairman knows of a case 
ever in this world where a memorandum of a conversation — 
because that is all this is — was allowed, upon proving the 
handwriting of one of the persons supposed to have had it, to 
be put in to contradict a witness, to show that she is not telling 
the truth, I should like to be cited to that case. It is not a 
record of the condition of her child, nor of her condition. It is 
not a physician’s record. That might be evidence, made at the 
Testimony of Charles M. Hanson (recalled). 2132 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTION S. 
Apr. 
time in the course of liis duty. But this purports to be a record 
of what she said her condition was. Now I think the resident 
physician ought to have examined her, and there ought to be a 
book there somewhere showing her condition. That would be 
evidence. But this is a statement going back, as I read a por- 
tion of it, to her birth, to things she could not have known 
about very well, because, although she was there, she didn’t 
understand much about what was going on. And that is offered 
here to contradict her. I submit it is not evidence. 
The Chairman. I don’t think it is. 
Mr. Brown. Why, Mr. Chairman, I will put it on another 
ground. I will read it as a record, in precisely the same man- 
ner in which the record was read last Friday about that piece of 
skin. The committee allowed His Excellency to read what was 
in this book of the board of state charities. If the committee 
think that is not evidence, then I ask to read from this which 
His Excellency read from only last Friday. This is just the 
same volume, I think. 
Gov. Butler. Oh no, sir ; no, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon. 
Gov. Butler. If }-ou will think for a moment, that was the 
record kept of the admission, discharge and death of somebody 
which we have been reading here, all parties: admitted so and 
so, born so and so, and died so and so. 
Mr. Brown. Do I understand you to object to that record of 
Eva Bowen, which is produced here by Mr. Hanson ? 
Gov. Butler. He lias sworn it is a copy from the original, 
and it is only one degree farther removed from it. 
Mr. Brown. It is not a question of whether it is farther 
removed. If on last Friday the committee allowed His Excel- 
lency to read three entries in this book in regard to a piece of 
skin, why on Monday can’t I read from the same book in regard 
to another person. 
Gov. Butler. I will tell you. 
Mr. Brown. I -shall be interested to hear you. 
Gov. Butler. You shall see. It is perfectly plain. 1 read 
no entry about that piece of skin. 
The Chairman. What is the name of that book, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. This book is “ Tewksbury Record, Yol. —.” 
Mr. Hanson swears that this is a copy of that one. [The 
original.j 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2133 
The Chairman. This is kept in the office of the board of 
state charities. 
Mr. Brown. And this [the original] at Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. This is kept in the department of in-door 
poor, and that is kept in the department of in-door poor; 
both the same, except that one is a sort of field-book and the 
other is an extended book or record; but it don’t remove it 
at all. Now, I will go, if you please, to what I read, and the 
difference. The question was, was there a man in the Tewks- 
bury almshouse by the name of Charles J. Eklund, a Swede, 
and when he was admitted. And that was a matter of record 
and not of memorandum, and written down in the usual course 
of business. It was not a recital of past events ; it was an ac- 
tual record of an actual event, written down at the time. And 
I did read it — not about this piece of skin, but in order to show 
from the record that there was a man there at that time. Now, 
the difference is as wide as heaven is from Tewksbury ; that 
here they want to read to }Tou what some witness said to some 
person and he took a memorandum of, whether that memoran- 
dum is correct or not. 
Mr. Brown. That is all you read on Friday, — what some- 
body said about his birth, recorded in that book. 
Gov. Butler. I read on Friday the fact recorded of his en- 
try and death. That is all I read. I didn’t read where he was 
born, because that I had in another way. 1 didn’t read it for 
any purpose of contradicting anybody, but for the purpose of 
showing the fact by the record, precisely like a record of births, 
which would be competent. The distinction is so wide — Oh, I 
have ceased to wonder at anything. 
Mr. Brown. So have I. 
Gov. Butler. The difference is as wide as wide can be. 
Here is a statement supposed to have been made by somebody 
of the history of their life, that is all. There is no evidence 
that it was made correctly, or why or how it was made. Now, I 
could easily understand, and to show you — I don’t mean now 
to state it, but to illustrate — suppose the father wanted for 
some reason to get rid of her, and to put her on to the State,— 
although why he, having adopted her legally and being bound 
for her support, should have been allowed to put her upon the 
State, I don’t know. The testimony is that he paid the board. 
I don’t find any credit to the State on the books for that. But 
then his statement would be taken. This book don’t purport to 2134 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
be a statement of Eva Bowen, but it purports to be a history, 
as I have read to you. Now, the father might have given this 
history, and might be willing, if he was desiring to get rid of 
this girl under any inspiration whatever — he might make his 
own statement, and that statement would have been taken. Mr. 
Hanson don’t think he was there, because it is not usual for 
them to be there. But that don’t alter it. This is a mere copy, and 
then you have got one farther remove. A copy of incompetent 
evidence cannot be put in. If you could establish that rule it 
would be very convenient, because all you would have to do 
would be to get a piece of incompetent evidence and get some- 
body to copy it and that would make it evidence. It is only one 
degree worse. That is all I have to say. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, His Excellency is the father of 
this proposition, and the proposition was born only last Frida}'; 
or at least it was born then,— we had heard something of it 
before. Last Frida}* His Excellency in cross-examining Father 
Gigault presented that piece of skin, and he told this committee 
that he was going to show that that man, whose name was on 
that piece of skin with the registry of his birth, was in the asy- 
lum at Tewksbury, and died there, and went from there to 
Harvard College. That was his proposition. He took one of 
these volumes and he undertook to read from it. I objected. 
I asked to be permitted to inspect it. And I saw written 
across the margin here that the man had been transferred to 
Bridgewater. And thereupon His Excellency complained, be- 
cause he said I was trying to make him prove two or three 
things at a time ; if I would only let him do one thing at a time 
he would show by these records that this man came from 
Tewksbury. 
The Chairman. He was tracing his whereabouts. 
Mr. Brown. He was tracing his whereabouts. This record 
showed that he went to the Bridgewater workhouse. Then he 
produced the next volume, which showed when he went in, and 
so on, and I think the third, where he brought up at Tewks- 
bury, and there died on the third of August, 1879. That was 
in regard to Charles J. Eklund. And it is entirely immaterial 
what the purpose was. The question is the fact. He was after 
the fact that Charles J. Eklund had been in Tewksbury and 
died there. And he took these very books which he says are 
copies. I objected. 
Gov. Butler. Never. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2135 
Mr. Brown. I bog your pardon. His Excellency put it on 
the ground that these books had been used and admitted, and I 
recollected that they had, and I didn’t object any further. The 
committee didn’t vote on it. 
Gov. Butler. Let me correct you, if you will. On the con- 
trary I then sent for the registers and got the registers up heie. 
Mr. Brown. You then sent for the registers of the Tewks- 
bury almshouse. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly; because you objected. 
Mr. Brown. Not because that evidence was excluded, but 
because His Excellency thought he would find the record in the 
register also. And finding it there — and he did find a rec- 
ord, and when it was turned over to me I pointed out the dif- 
ference. Now where are we? Let us see. Three times — and 
His Excellency don’t deny it — His Excellency has read from 
these volumes records of inmates kept by Mr. Tripp ; and the 
only question that has ever been asked was : by whom was this 
record kept? And I think on one or two instances — one in- 
stance that I well recollect— Mr. Hanson was in the room and 
I called Mr. Hanson’s attention to the handwriting, and satis- 
fied myself it was the handwriting of Mr. Tripp and made no 
further objection. And that was when His Excellency pro- 
posed to introduce one of these records. Now, I have another 
record which I want to read, kept by Mr. Tripp, upon this evi- 
dence. His Excellency is troubled in regard to the purpose for 
which I offer it. He need not trouble himself at all. All I am 
after is the fact that is contained in that record. That is all. 
We are charged here, the trustees and the superintendent of the 
Tewksbury almshouse are charged here with having stained the 
character of Eva Bowen by putting upon our registry the entry 
that she had the syphilis. That is what we are charged with. 
And we have had it flung out to us three or four times this 
morning that the register is of no account; that we never pre- 
tend to tell the truth. Mr. Charles Marsh went on the witness 
stand and told you how lie made the entry which was put on 
the Tewksbury register in regard to Eva Bowen ; that he got it 
from papers which were sent to him from r.he board of state 
charities. So that this is competent in three or four ways. 
And I submit that if His Excellency — although he has used 
this book on three instances on Friday last — if he objects to 
that because it is a copy, why, then I will give the original 
entry which was also kept at Tewksbury. And this is one of 2136 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the volumes which we have produced under his call. Mr. 
Hanson has just stated that it was kept at Tewksbury. It is 
in our possession. We have produced it under his call. Now, 
it is entirely immaterial to me which horn of the dilemma His 
Excellency takes — this book from which he read on Frida}', or 
this book from which he read when he was putting in his case ; 
but in one form or the other it seems to me it is perfectly com- 
petent. The precedents have been established here by the 
committee at the suggestion of His Excellency the Governor. 
Now, I would like to ask Mr. Hanson if he has examined this 
record about this Eva Bowen. 
The Witness. Yes, sir ; 1 have. 
Q. You find it to be the ordinary record, such as is usually 
taken up there, do you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What is the purpose of taking this record ; in order that 
you may ascertain their definite and legal settlement? A. It 
is ; yes, sir. That is one of the reasons. 
Q. Is that the main reason ? A. That is the main reason. 
Q. And in getting at the history you generally — A. We 
take this history and condition from the persons themselves. 
Q. And on that history the question of settlement is settled? 
A. An examination is made ; yes, sir. 
Q. And when any question arises between the Common- 
wealth and a city or town you use that as evidence ? A. In 
this case the history was taken and an examination made, and 
it was found that the girl had a settlement in Chelsea through 
her adopted father; papers of legal adoption had been taken 
out. For some reason or other, I don’t remember the circum- 
stances, the father paid the board of the party into our office, 
which was paid after the examination was made. Our custom 
was to send the bill to the city or town where the party had a 
settlement; but in this case the bill was given to the father, and 
he paid it, and the money was turned over to the State treasury. 
1 don’t remember just the circumstances. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) These are used in evidence in 
settling questions of settlement. Now, do you remember any 
case where there has been an action between the State and any 
city or town, in which such a book as that has been used as evi- 
dence ? A. I don’t think these records have been ; I think the 
report of the examining officer has been used. 
Q. That is, the report of the party who makes the examina- 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2137 
tion by this record? A. I don’t remember that these books 
were ever introduced ; I never heard that they were. 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me that it would be proper for Mr. 
Tripp to be here. 
Gov. Butler. That is all I have been contending for ; for I 
want to ask Mr. Tripp who told that story, if he remembers. 
Because it is taken down in the third person. If I was taking 
it down I should take it down : Eva Bowen sa}rs so and so. 
If I was taking it for a third person I should say : she was 
born so and so, lived so and so, and died-so and so. 
The Chairman. I don’t think this is admissible, Mr. Brown, 
for the purpose for which you offer it. 
Mr. Gilmore. It seems to me that the proper wa}r is to have 
Mr. Tripp summoned, and he can refresh his memory by the 
record. 
Gov. Butler. Just as easy to bring M- Tripp here as it is 
to bring a bottle of coffee. 
The Chairman. The committee isn’t very full, and perhaps 
we had better adjourn pending this question. I don’t think the 
evidence is admissible. 
Mr. Brown. I should not have thought of offering it if it 
hadn’t been four times ruled in by this committee on previous 
occasions. 
The Chairman. But for another purpose. 
Gov. Butler. For another purpose. 
Mr. Brown. It must have been for another purpose; it 
could not have been for the same purpose. 
The Chairman. Half-past nine to-morrow morning. 2138 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr 
FORTY-SIXTH HEARING. 
Tuesday, June 12. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Willard D. Tripp {sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Willard D. Tripp. 
Q. You have been an agent of the board of state charities 
how long? A. Since the first day of October, 1867. 
Q. Either of the old board or of the new ? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Agent. 
The Witness. I have been employed by the old board of 
state charities and the new board continuously since the first 
of October', 1867. 
Q. You are at present .in charge of the almshouse? A. 
Not strictly speaking. Mr. Fallon is at present in charge. I 
act under his direction. 
Q. Were }’on in the habit at an}r time of going to Tewks- 
bury and taking the record of llie inmates there? A. I was. 
Q. Will you look at that book [produced] and see if that 
record is in your handwriting? A. Yes, sir ; it is. 
Q. Did you personally take that record? A. I personally 
wrote it; I obtained this information in a conversation with this 
person on that day — 
Q. What person? A. Eva Bowen. 
Gov. Butler. And you were about to say something? 
The Witness. 1 was going to say that I took this as the 
result of a conversation on the 28th of July, 1875. This was 
the substance of what was said at that interview. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Chairman — 
Gov. Butler. One moment. 
Mr. Brown. [Passing the book to the governor.] Excuse 
me, I thought you had seen it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2139 
Gov. Butler. I want to examine the witness. 
Mr. Brown. Would’nt it be well to let him read it? 
Gov. Butler. Oh no ; because I want to see it. 
Q. Was anybody else there? A. I could not say that there 
was anybody else present; I however think there was. My recol- 
lection is that there was because it was taken at a place,— the con- 
versation was held in a place where she could not possibly have 
been alone ; she was in the nursery where there were several 
women and children. Sometimes when there were only one or 
two who were able to go out, they did go out; sometimes 
when the}7 were sick they were not disturbed. I cannot posi- 
tively say that anybody was present at that time or not. 
Q. Can you say — was this in answer to questions put by 
you, or was it a voluntary statement? A. It was in answer 
to interrogatories. 
Q. Do you remember whether you examined any records 
upon this matter ? A. I will state to you what my practice 
was. I could not say definitely about this particular case. I 
should say that I had before me the permit upon which the per- 
son was admitted, giving the name, the age, and other par- 
ticulars in regard to what her condition was, and I usually 
looked at that permit and verified it by what the person said. 
Q. In what shape would the permit be? A. It would be 
in the shape of a paper sent by the city or town from which the 
inmate came, giving the name, date, and all matters of that sort. 
Q. But this woman came from no city or town. A. She 
was admitted on a permit from the city of Boston. 
Q. On a permit from the city of Boston? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How was that? She was a resident of Chelsea, if she 
was a resident of anywhere. A. 1 cannot answer that ques- 
tion. I simply know that she appeared there on a permit from 
the city of Boston. 
Q. What is done with those permits? A. Those permits, 
I think, are filed in the institution. 
Q. In the institution? A. In the institution at Tewks- 
bury ; I think they are all on file there. I know I have seen 
quite a number on file, and I suppose that every permit that has 
been received has been filed. 
Q. Have you seen that permit recently ? A. I have not. I 
don’t know that I have seen it since the 28th day of July, 1875. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 2140 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Then you looked at the permit to see what the settle- 
ment was? A. That is the rule ; that is the practice. 
Q. No reason why you should not have done it? A. No, 
sir ; I think not. 
Q. I still don’t understand this. The testimony is that this 
girl was residing with her father in the city of Chelsea. The 
testimony is — and fortunately here is no dispute — that she was 
taken from Dedham directly up to Tewksbury. The city of 
Boston hadn’t anything to do with Dedham. And she had — 
the testimony also is that she had a settlement in the city of 
Chelsea; and this statement of yours tends to show that? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, can you tell me, Mr. Tripp, how it was that she 
went there under a permit from the city of Boston ; what ar- 
rangement the board of state charities have with the city of 
Boston which leads them to permit people that don’t live in their 
city and have no settlement in their city, don’t even stay in 
their city, never resided in their city — how do they permit them 
to go into the Tewksbury almshouse? I would like to know 
that. A. As far as I know the board of state charities had 
nothing to do with the admission of this case. 
Q. Then you don’t know of any rule of the board of state 
charities that allows it? A. I know that it often happens that 
persons come to Tewksbury for whom settlements are found ; 
very frequently it so happens. 
Q. I agree to all that; but that is not the point. The point 
is, that while a state pauper, having no settlement in a town 
and being found in a town, might be well enough and, properly 
enough sent by that town up to Tewksbury — my proposition is 
to find out how it is that a woman, that a girl that was not found 
in the town of Boston, who has a father living in Chelsea, wrho 
lives in Chelsea herself, and who at the time she starts for 
Tewksbury starts from Dedham ; I want to know whether it is 
common to have such a case? A. No, sir; I should think 
not. 
Q. You never heard of such a case as that? A. I have 
known a class of persons 'who belong in other towns around 
Boston who come here for various purposes, and sometimes try 
to get into the hospital for treatment, and when they find they 
cannot they apply to the city of Boston and are sent up there. 
Q. But the difficult}’ with this case, wiiich you apparently 
don’t appreciate, is that this woman was already in a hospital 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2141 
and was all right and had nothing to do with the city of Boston 
and the of Boston hadn’t anything to do with her. Now, 
how was this done ? A. 1 cannot answer the question ; I was 
at Tewksbury. 
Q. You were at Tewksbury? A. I didn’t see her until 
four days after. I might or might not have been on that day. 
Q. But four days afterwards you took this. Now, can you 
tell me from recollection how much of this report was on the 
permit and how much was what she said? A. I could not. 
Q. Now, then, if this permit was a wrong and a fraudulent 
one, if the person who got this fraudulent permit chose to put 
any story in that permit to go out, you would find that story 
reproduced here? A. I only wrote what was on the permit as 
to age, birth-place and her condition when she was admitted to 
the institution. 
Q. Yes ; and the condition is all there is in this thing that 
we care a copper about, or that I care a copper about; and that 
condition is the thing which is in dispute here. Now, whether 
this condition was taken from this girl’s lips, or taken from the 
permit, you have already said to me you cannot tell. Now, 
then, do you say that this girl, simply in answer to a question, 
answered in this way : that she returned to her home on October 
first, ran away from her home October 29, and went to a house 
of ill-fame, 20 Lyman Street, and she, while there, followed the 
practices of the house, —what was there in getting her condition 
that required that to be said to you? Such a voluntary state- 
ment of a girl as that? A. I remember of asking those ques- 
tions in consequence of wrhat was believed to be her condition. 
Q. Then you had learned her condition? A. If it was in 
the permit. 
Q. Then you say that this girl went on and said: “Was 
at this house some two weeks, when she wrote to her father, 
and he took her away and sent her to Oak Place Tempo- 
rary Home, where he paid her board until April 27, 1875 ; 
then to Dedham Home, and from there sent here ; syphilis.” 
Syphilis repeated. She was so anxious to make you know that 
she had the syphilis that she repeated it? A. Probably that 
last was put down as coming from the permit,—the last word 
there. 
Q. Precisely. You have got it down here in full words, — 
you have got it down here in the same words, and then repeated 
it once more. Now, can you tell me upon your knowledge any 2142 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
particular word about her condition, that you knew from appear- 
ances or knowledge, not that you took from her lips? A. I 
could not, upon my oath, swear that she used the term syphilis. 
I could not swear that she used that term. 
Q. Why, then, did you put it into her mouth? A. She told 
me her condition was such that she led me to believe that was 
her trouble. 
Q. Why didn’t state her condition as she stated it,— 
instead of putting your judgment down from her lips, what it 
was? Because she might have been mistaken ; she was a young 
girl of fifteen or sixteen? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well. Now, from your memory, what did 30U see 
about her, if that showed that she had the syphilis? 
A. Not anything. 
Q. Then, without anything appearing that she had the 
syphilis, and without anything — give me the words of her 
description of herself that led you to put down the word 
syphilis? A. She told me that she was diseased. 
Q. Did she use that word? A. That was the word that 
was commonly used — 
Q. I don’t ask for the word that was commonly used. A. 
I cannot remember what particular word she used, but from my 
experience — 
Q. Leave out your experience. A. All right. 
Q. Leave out 3'onr experience. I trust you haven’t had a 
great deal of experience with fifteenyear-old girls? A. I 
didn’t catch your remark. 
Q. I sa}r I trust 3rou haven’t had a great deal of experience 
with fifteen-year-old girls? A. Well, not a large number. 
Q. You are in charge of Tewksbury. They have not pro- 
duced that permit. Will do me the favor to make search 
for it when 3tou go home? A. I will, sir. 
Q. Will you either bring it down or send it down? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. [To Mr. Brown.] I have no objection to 
your reading it now, although you put it in the “ Herald,” or 
some rascal did, before it was put in in testimony. 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t hear the whole of 3Tour remark. 
Gov. Butler. I sa3r I have no objection to your reading it 
now, although 3rou put it there, or some rascal put it in the 
“ Herald,” yesterday, before it was put in testimony. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2143 
Mr. Brown. I was looking to see where you put your 
demonstrative adjective. 
Gov. Butler. I used no adjective; I used a good honest 
noun. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
No. 46448 and 46449 ; age 16 ; name Eva Bowen ; 46449, Freddie 
Bowen, 3-12, born in Boston ; from Boston July 24, 1875 ; condition, 
syphilis; examined July 28, 1875.” 
Mr. Tripp, won’t you read that just as it should he read, fol- 
lowing out your abbreviations ? 
The Witness. [Reading.] 
“ Born February 9, 1859, Quincy Mass.; when at years of age 
was adopted by William V. Bowen of Portland, Maine; she at that 
time was living with uncle in Auburn, Me.; she has since resided 
with her adopted parents; the Bowen family moved from Portland to 
Addison, Me ; there one year, then to Newton Centre, Mass.; there 
about five years, and back to Addison a few months, and then came 
to Chelsea spring of 1868, and have lived there since; William V. 
Bowen bought a house and land in Chelsea, No. 70 Middlesex Street, 
fall of 1867, and has occupied and paid taxes on the property since, 
and lives there now; her own father’s name was Goddard; she 
knows nothing of his history; don’t know the name of her mother; 
her. name originally was Eva May Goddard, and Mr. Bowen had 
it changed to May Eva Bowen; adopted mother Miriam P. with 
husband; has two adopted sisters and one brother; father of child 
Martin Hearn of South Boston, by whom she was seduced spring of 
1874, in Chelsea, or rather at the Artists’ Studio on Hanover Street, 
where Hearn went to paint and she to see the pictures; this intimacy 
continued all winter while she was attending school in Massachusetts 
Normal Art School and the Lowell Institute, where she was study- 
ing to be an artist, both landscape and portrait; last summer was 
with adopted mother in New Hampshire, Eva being sick on account 
of pregnancy; she returned to her home October 1, and ran 
away from home October 29, and went to house of ill-fame, 20 
Lyman Street, and while there followed the practices of the house 
and contracted syphilis; was at this house some two weeks, when 
she wrote to her father and he took her away and sent her to Oak 
Place Temporary Home, where he paid her board until April 27, 
1875; theh to Dedham Home, and from there sent here; syphilis.” 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Tripp, ivas there anything in the 
permit which said — 
Gov. Butler. I think we ought to have the permit. 2144 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know why you should require it of me. 
You went into it. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. You went into it without having it. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. I asked him if he took certain 
entries from the permit. 
Mr. Brown. That is just what I am going to ask. 
Gov. Butler. Then, finding the permit was in existence, I 
asked him to bring the permit. 
Q. (Byr Mr. Brown.) Was there anything in the permit 
which said that last summer she went with her adopted mother 
to New Hampshire, being sick on account of pregnancy? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Was there anything that said she returned to her home 
about the first of October, and ran away from home, Oc- 
tober 29, to a house of ill-fame, 20 Lyman Street, and while 
there followed the practices of the house and contracted the 
syphilis, — anything in the permit of that kind ? A. I should 
say not, unless it was the fact of her condition. 
Q. Was there anything in the permit that said that the 
father of the child was Martin Hearn ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you recollect any president of the United States 
whose name was Hearn? A. I do not. 
Mr. Brown. Your witness, Governor. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler, 
Q. Did you look up this case ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever find such a man as Martin Hearn? A. I 
don’t think wo ever did. I have no knowledge it was ever 
looked up. 
Q. But Mr. Hanson says the board of state charities looked 
it up to find a settlement. A. That was not m3’duty. I could 
not answer. 
Q. Whose duty was that? A. I think at that time Mr. 
Merritt Nash was e officer whose duty it was to do that. 
Q. Where is A. If Mr. Nash was the officer at that 
time — I am not i, e clear — he is now settlement clerk of the 
city of Boston, at No. 30 Pemberton Square. I think, if that 
was looked up, there would be an order on file in the office. It 
was the custom to issue an order to the settlement clerk, and he 
returned his report, and this order was filed in the office. 
Q. Won’t you do me the favor to go down and ask for that 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2145 
after you leave the stand, and send it up ? A. If it has been 
looked up. 
Q. Mr. Hanson testified that it had been, and that the 
father paid the board. Now, this says that she was from Bos- 
ton, July 24. Is that in your handwriting? A. All the 
writing on that page is in my handwriting. 
Q. Then 3*011 put down that she was from Boston, and 3*011 
took her statement that she came from Dedham? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And that statement, you find, is true, and the statement 
that she came from Boston is not true? A. If you will permit 
me, I will explain how these blanks are filled out. M3* practice 
was to take the register right down with the names, seriatim, 
and cop3r them on to these leaves, — all the names that ap- 
peared upon the register, where the3* came from and the date 
the3* were admitted, and then I went to the institution and saw 
the people. 
Q. Well, the first word 3*011 speak of her is syphilis, and the 
last word 3*011 speak is S3*philis ; condition syphilis ; had got the 
S3*philis. You rolled that like a sweet morsel under 3*our 
tongue, I beg your pardon, I am wrong. The 
first word was a lie,—that she was from Boston; the second 
word is S3*philis, then S3*philis is repeated, and the last word is 
syphilis. That is this record. And it appears on the face of 
it that she didn’t come from Boston. And 3*et 3*011 sa3* that you 
saw nothing that induced you to sa3* that she had s3Tphilis. 
And this was taken from something in Tewksbury, I take it? 
A. That was taken from the register down to “ Examined ” — 
down to there. 
Q. Down to there, you took that from the register. Then 
3*ou got it in twice afterwards. You started out that she had it, 
and you put it in again, whatever she said, twice over. Now, 
let us see about this. In the spring of 1874, in Chelsea, — 
“ she was seduced in the spring of 1874 in Chelsea, or rather at 
the Artists’ Studio oa Hanover Street,” where she went to see the 
pictures. Very well. Then, being seduced in the spring, and 
being then six months gone with child, or about that, she went 
to a house on Lyman Street, and followed the practices there. 
We have had that. She was in a nice condition to be doing 
that business, wasn’t she, according to 3*0111’ experience? And 
“ following the practices” there, — this young girl, slender girb 
with a six months’ child in her belly, — she got the syphilis. 2146 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
And that is the record of the board of state charities ? — That is 
all, sir. 
The Chairman. I desire to say, Governor, that I approve 
what you say about the impropriety of putting that matter in 
the paper before it came in testimony before the committee. I 
think it was very improper. 
Mr. Brown. If the chairman will allow me, I think the same 
thing in regard to the fac simile of the skin, which was not 
in evidence, published in the “ Star” last evening. 
The Chairman. I think where there is an objection offered 
to evidence it should not be published before the evidence goes 
in. 
Gov. Butler. That was in evidence for a certain purpose 
yesterday, and the day before — last Friday. And while I had 
nothing to do with that, yet that was in this case. This was a 
sealed book up to this morning, except it was given by some- 
body who had it in his possession for safe-keeping, to a re- 
porter. 
The Chairman. Call your next witness, Mr. Brown. 
Testimony of Abraham 8. Barnard {recalled). 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Have you brought that coffee and tea that you were 
asked to bring ? A. Yes, sir. 
[Two quart bottles, filled, produced.] 
Gov. Butler. I shall have the honor to object to any testi- 
mony about coffee made last night or this morning. 
The Chairman. I suppose it must be made in the usual 
way in which coffee is made, the same weight of coffee and 
water. 
Gov. Butler. But pardon me, sir. It is the first time in 
my life, in my experience, since 1840 more or less, that I have 
ever seen a witness sent to make, a preparation, during a trial, 
like that which he says was made before. 
The Chairman. Let us see what this is. 
Gov. Butler. Is there any doubt in your mind? 
The Chairman. I don’t know about the tea. 
Mr. Brown. Are }Tou afraid this coffee is going to lie good? 
The Chairman. If it is part of the tea they had last night 
at Tewksbury, and that is the usual article — 
Gov. Butler. Even if it is a part of the tea and part of 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2147 
the coffee — Now, I don’t think they can manufacture evidence 
anywhere else on earth but here. 
The Chairman. I don’t think they can here, unless it is the 
usual article furnished. 
Mr. Brown. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have known this thing 
to be done repeatedly in the United States courts. 
Gov. Butler. It must have" been in the United States court. 
Mr. Brown. You and I have had the same experience. I 
think you have had the same thing. 
The Chairman. Ask the witness what it is. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) [Referring to one of the bottles.] 
What is that, Mr. Barnard ? A. It is tea, sir. 
Q. Was it part of the tea that was prepared for the inmates 
at Tewksbury last night? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What quantity of tea and what quantity of water? 
Gov. Butler. I object. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t mean in this, but in the whole prepara- 
tion. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care what they did last night. You 
are not authorized to do what they would do hereafter. You 
are to show what they were doing at the time we were ordered 
to investigate. The question was asked yesterday whether Mr. 
Tripp had had a knock-down. I didn’t cross-examine anything 
about it, you will observe. 
The Chairman. The question has been gone into here as to 
the food and drink at that institution for the last ten or fifteen 
years. They must produce here the best evidence they can to 
show what that has been. 
Gov. Butler. The best legal evidence ; not what the food 
was last night. 
The Chairman. Precisely. The best legal evidence. 
Gov. Butler. Not what the fact was last night, sir. I hope 
it is better. 
The Chairman. Hope it is stronger. 
Gov. Butler. I should hope so; but it is of no conse- 
quence whether it is or not. 
The Chairman. I don’t think it is of very much conse- 
quence ; still, if the committee want to taste of this tea — 
Mr. Murphy. I waive my claim. 
The Chairman. I think it must appear on the oath of the 
witness that it is the same tea that he has been dealing out since 2148 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
he has been at the head of the cooking department. If he 
swears to that I don’t know but it is competent. 
Gov. Butler. If he should swear to that he could not be 
believed, because he cannot know whether the tea that they 
have now is the same tea that they had last year. 
The Chairman. He may show his means of knowing that. 
Gov. Butler. He cannot. That is impossible. You can- 
not tell yourself whether the tea you are drinking to-day is the 
same you drank five years ago. 
The Chairman. I am a better judge of other things than I 
am of tea. 
Gov. Butler. It may or may not be the tea, but nobody 
can tell that, especiall}" a man who don’t know the qualit}" of 
beef, so that they put it in the “Herald ” that it was all mess beef. 
There is the difficult}". Evidence can be manufactured to any 
extent in that way. And this man’s place depends upon man- 
ufacturing goods. 
Mr. Risteen. I think what may be there now is not evidence 
of what they had two or three years ago. 
The Chairman. This man has been there and knows whether 
there has been any substantial change. 
Mr. Brown. This man has been there off and on for four- 
teen years, or since 1860, and he tells you what the fixed rule 
has been, — seven pounds of tea to 112 1-2 gallons of water and 
7 1-2 gallons of milk, making 120 gallons; and the same with 
coffee ; that is, 16 pounds of coffee to the same amount of water 
and milk. Now, I asked him to make, or to take out of what 
he made for tea last night; that is, to make it according to the 
same rule which he had always followed, take out a quart and 
bring it here. And now His Excellency is objecting to the 
proposition. 
Gov. Butler. To show what it was some time ago. It 
tends to show what it was last night. 
Mr. Brown. It don’t make any difference ; His Excellency 
has had occasion, within my knowledge, to ask an expert to 
take letters patent ten years old and make a composition of 
matter following the prescription in those letters patent. 
Gov. Butler. Oh. God ! An}Tbody ever doubt that? 
Mr. Brown. Now,'that is precisely what I have asked this 
man to do here ; not to take letters patent, but to take and fol- 
low a rule which be has followed for fourteen years, about, in 
making a composition, and let us see what it is. His Excel- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2149 
lency flung at me in the early part of this investigation that I 
never invited anybody to take a drink. I am going to ask him 
now to take a drink. [Laughter.] 
Gov. Butler. I knew he would not ask me to take a drink 
except at the Commonwealth’s expense. [Laughter.] 
The Chairman. That is a fair hit. Now, let us come to 
order. 
Gov. Butler. He eats and drinks at Tewksbury at the 
Commonwealth’s expense. I do not. Now, then, let us go to 
the serious part of this matter. Letters patent are taken out in 
order to instruct men skilled in the art to follow that art. Fig- 
ures and models are made to show whether they can be working 
models long afterwards. If they are upon chemical or upon 
other compositions they are made in that way. But that is not 
this case at all. The letters patent tell you to take so many 
ounces of so and so ; so man}7 ounces of so and so and make a 
concotion, or composition. This is only what — unless this is 
a patented drink and is made according to a patent, and then I 
agree. If we were trying the ability of a patent I believe it 
possibly might be evidence. But what are we trying to find out? 
we are trying to find out what has been the tea in this institution 
years before. And, in order to prove that, they show what was 
made last night for the inmates. For years and years it never 
has been weighed. Last night it might or might not have been 
weighed. 
Mr. Brown. Let us find out. 
Gov. Butler. Whether it was or not, don’t alter it, because 
you cannot compare a certain thing with an uncertain thing. 
The evidence is wholly illusory, and is simply brought in here 
in order that what was a very elaborate and well-considered 
joke might be put upon me, by asking me to drink some of it,— 
that is all the value there is to this. Now, will the committee 
be any wiser unless they have this analyzed? Can you tell by 
the taste? Are you going to set up yourselves as a tasting 
committee, as experts in taste of pauper tea and coffee, because 
it can be of no advantage without that. I don’t propose to go 
into that business myself, and I don’t propose that the commit- 
tee shall make such an exhibition of themselves, if I can help it; 
if I cannot, I must bow; and I have ended what I desire to say 
on my objection to this evidence. 
The Chairman. I will submit the question to the committee. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I see by the order that the Committee on 2150 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Public Charitable Institutions are to investigate the manage- 
ment, control, and present condition of the several public chari- 
table institutions. 
Gov. Butler. That was the 30th of March. 
Mr. Chamberlain. And the witness, if I understand it, 
knows the general character of this coffee and tea which has 
been used, not only for the last month, but for years. And he 
has here testified that this is of that general character. Nowt, 
for one, I would like to know whether this is about the same 
thing that has been used in Tewksbury for the last few years ; 
and I hope the testimony will be admitted. 
The Chairman. I think the examination of the witness had 
better proceed a little farther, so we may see what it is. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) How long have you made tea 
there, Mr. Witness? A. Well, sir, I have made coffee and 
tea'ever since I have been there. 
Q. Fourteen years? A. Fourteen years. I have been 
there fourteen years. 
Q. Was this tea and coffee made of substantially the same 
kind of tea that you have been using? A. This is 
made just about the same as we have made it for four or five 
years past. 
Q. The quality of the tea and coffee were about the same? 
A. Yes, sir ; the coffee and tea were about the same. 
Q. Now, as to the quantity of water. Is the quantity of 
water and the quantity of tea the same in this compound 3rou 
have brought here, proportionately, that it has been in the tea 
that you have been making? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the same thing writh the coffee? A. Yes, sir; just 
the same that I have been making right along. 
Q. (By Mr. Risteen.) I would like to ask the witness whether 
he is able to say that the quality of the tea used there now is 
the same as that used four or five years ago? Whether he is 
expert enough to say whether the quality is the same ? A. I 
could not tell about the quality of the tea. 
Q. (By Mr. Murphy.) Neither can you tell about the 
coffee? A. Neither about the coffee. 
Q. A different management now has the purchase of supplies 
than had it a year ago, do they not? A. Well, I think it is 
just about the same now it was a year ago. 
Q. A different management purchased the supplies from that 
which did it a year ago? A. Yes, sir ; that is different. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2151 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Well, Mr. Barnard, is there any sub- 
stantial difference between the quality of this tea, which was 
used last night, and that which was used a year ago? A. No, 
sir; I don’t know that there is a mite of difference. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) And you don’t know that there is 
not? A. Well, sir, I could not tell. The tea looks to me 
about the same. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You have tasted it, and you find it 
just about the same ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You find by the color, when you put the milk in, that it 
looks to be about the same strength? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Both tea and coffee? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The appearance of the tea is substantially the same be- 
fore it is put into the water? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. It smells about the same ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Both tea and coffee ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Did you smell the tea before you 
put it in last night? A. I oftentimes do. 
Q. I ask yon did you smell the tea when you put it in last 
night? A. I was not there to put it in last night. 
Q. Did you smell of the coffee this morning? A. When I 
left here yesterday afternoon to go home I got home just as the}' 
had made the tea, and got into the house as my assistant had 
finished it. 
Q. Then you didn’t make this tea yourself? A. Well, I 
didn’t make it, but I asked them, my assistants, about it. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Then you didn’t do as you were 
told? A. I was not there. 
The Chairman. I think the tea ought to be left out. 
Mr. Brown. Then leave the tea out. 
The Witness. I made the coffee myself this morning. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) How did you make that? A. Well, 
I made it just the same as I always do — the same amount of 
coffee, the same of milk, and the same of sugar. I didn’t get 
home soon enough to make that tea. 
Mr. Brown. Never mind about that. [To the committee.] 
Now, Mr. Chairman, I submit in regard to the coffee — 
The Chairman. The question is whether the committee 
will — 
Mr. Murphy. I object to the admission of it, on the prin- 
ciple that I don’t think that the actions of the men in charge of 
the institution at present are under investigation by this com- 2152 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
mittee. The words “present management” in the order refer 
to the time when the order was drawn, and that present man- 
agement is not this one. 
The Chairman. I think, unless he ean swear that the coffee 
is substantially the same the}' have been using for two, three, 
or four years, it would not be competent; and, if it is, the testi- 
mony would not be of much weight. 
Mr. Murphy. As far as I understand lie cannot swear to the 
quality of the coffee. 
The Chairman. Then I don’t think it is admissible. 
Mr. Risteen. I think the witness taking roasted coffee can- 
not tell whether it is of the same quality as that which he used 
three or four years ago. He might tell if it were green, but he 
cannot tell when it is roasted. 
Mr. Brown. [Addressing the committee.] — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I don’t think we are to have an 
argument on this. 
Mr. Brown. 1 don’t know that i am obliged to sit down 
because you tell me to. I want to make a suggestion to the 
committee. 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubt, then, I shall have to reply 
to it. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t object to your reptying; you have 
carte blanche to reply to me any time. 
Gov. Butler. I understand that; I have heard that twenty 
times. But 1 have an order of debate settled here, as far as 1 
am concerned, and I want it stuck to b}r the counsel who ap- 
pears here for the Tewksbury almshouse, or anybody else, and 
that he shall stop when he gets through. 
Mr. Brown. That I usually do ; but I have not got through 
yet. 
Gov. Butler. He thinks he is one of the committee. 
Mr. Brown. Nobody would make a mistake in regard to you 
in that way. 
Mr. Murphy. The committee are discussing this matter 
among themselves. I object to his interfering. 
Mr. Brown. The gentleman from Suffolk — 
Gov. Butler. I insist upon my right not to be closed upon 
here. 
The Chairman. I will submit it to the committee whether 
Mr. Brown may make a suggestion. 
Gov. Butler. Nothing like having a sturdy friend. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2153 
The Chairman. One in the affirmative, and none in the 
negative. 
Gov. Butler. Have you put the negative? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir ; nobody voted. 
Gov. Butler. Ha, ha, ha ; what a farce this is. 
Mr. Brown. Of course we are not all experts in tea and 
coffee. 
Mr. Murphy. I don’t understand that vote. 
The Chairman. Very well; I will put it again. Those in 
favor ; those opposed by the same sign. Now decided in the 
negative. Now we will vote on the coffee. 
Q. (By Mr. Putney.) Did you weigh the amount of coffee 
you used this morning? A. No, sir; it is weighed and sent 
to me. 
Q. You supposed they weighed it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Murphy.) Then you don’t know for a cer- 
tainty that the respective quantities of coffee and water were 
used — of your own personal knowledge? You don’t know of 
your own personal knowledge whether this coffee is the same as 
that you have been making in the past or not? You didn’t 
weigh the coffee when you got it? A. I never weighed. 
Q. It is weighed by somebody else? A. Yes, sir; and 
sent right to me. 
Q. (By Mr. Chester.) Have you drank of this coffee? A. 
Have I? 
Q. Did you drink of this coffee this morning? A. Yes, sir ; 
1 think I tasted it. 
Q. How does this compare with the usual coffee you drink 
from day to day? A. What do you mean ; with the inmates’ 
coffee ? 
Q. I mean the kind of coffee you prepare for the inmates ; 
you drink of that coffee every morning, do you? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. No ; you don’t catch him. 
The Witness. I might taste of it. 
Q. (By Mr. Putney.) Do you know how much coffee you 
used this morning in making that? A. I suppose there was 
sixteen pounds. It is weighed and sent to me and called that. 
Q. You don’t know absolutely whether there was sixteen 
pounds? A. I should say there was sixteen pounds. 
Q. (By Mr. Murphy.) Is it just possible that the present 
management may have been a little more liberal and given you 
a little more coffee ? 2154 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. I see what you are afraid of; you are afraid it 
will be too strong. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; that is what we are afraid of. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I want to ask you a single ques- 
tion. Where is the coffee made that you drink of in the morn- 
ing? A. That is made at the superintendent’s kitchen. 
Q. You don’t dine with the superintendent, do you? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. But you dine at what is called the officers’table? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And do you drink yourself of the tea and coffee which 
you make for the inmates, as your beverage? A. No, sir ; not 
for breakfast and supper ; along through the day I drink some 
of it. 
Q. When it is cold? A. Sometimes when it is warm. 
Q. But for your breakfast and supper you don’t have it? A. 
No, sir. 
The Chairman. Now, I will put the question : those in favor 
of admitting the coffee to be inspected by the committee will 
raise their hands. 
[The committee refused to admit the coffee.] 
The Chairman. The committee appear not to be dry this 
morning. Better bring some bread next time, Mr. Brown, and 
you may have better luck. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Mr. Barnard, will you go home and 
make some tea and coffee, having weighed your tea and coffee, 
and bring it here to-morrow morning? A. Weigh it myself? 
Q. Weigh it yourself? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Take it out of the same lot served to the in- 
mates, both tea and coffee, and have it here to-morrow morn- 
ing. 
Gov. Butler. How can he tell that? If he has not taken 
the other out of any lot, how can he tell ? 
Mr. Brown. I say take it out of the same portion that is 
served to the inmates. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, well, if you want to — 
Mr. Brown. That is all, Mr. Barnard. Bring it here to- 
morrow morning. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2155 
Testimony of William H. Lathrop (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name ? A. William Henry Lathrop. 
Q. And you are a physician? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where did yon graduate? A. In medicine, at the Uni- 
versity of Pennsylvania. 
Q,. (By Gov. Butler.) Philadelphia? A. Philadelphia. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) When? A. In March, I860. 
Q. You are connected with the Tewksbury almshouse? A. 
I am. 
Q. How long have you been connected with it? A. Since 
October, 1875. 
Q. Had you any experience in public institutions before you 
went to Tewksbury? A. Yes; I had been in a number of 
hospitals. 
Q. Now, state them. A. I was in the army in three or 
four ; commissary steward. 
Q. What hospitals? A. I was commissary steward in the 
Foster hospital at Newbern, N. C. 
Q. When was that? A. That was in 1862 and 1863. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Commissary steward? A. I was 
a private soldier detailed from my regiment as commissary 
steward. 
The Chairman. A little louder, Doctor. 
The Witness. I was a private soldier, detailed from my 
regiment to the hospital to act as commissary steward. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) What was your regiment? A. The 
Forty-fourth Massachusetts. 
Q. Now, taking them right in order, give us the different 
hospitals. A. I went from there to Satterlee post, West Phila- 
delphia, as acting medical cadet, they called it. I sta}red there 
while I was studying medicine, and completed my studies there. 
Q. Then where? A. Then I went to City Point, Vir- 
ginia ; to the Second Corps Hospital, City Point, as assistant 
surgeon. From there I went to take charge of a hospital in 
Orangeburg, South Carolina. 
Q. How long were yrou there ? A. I was there about two 
months. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) An arnry hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (Byr Mr. Brown.) Then where did you go? A. To 
a post hospital in Charleston, South Carolina. 2156 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. How long were you there? A. I was there about six 
months. 
Q. Then where did you go ? A. Then I travelled around 
the State, visiting different posts, and after a few months I was 
assigned as health officer at Port Royal, and I had charge of 
the cholera hospital, but we didn’t have any work to do; we 
had quarantine. 
Q. Under whose direction did you travel about? A. Under 
the direction of the medical director. 
Q. Of what? A. Of the department of the South. 
Q. In what year was that? A. From the spring to the 
fall of 1866. 
Q. Then where did you go? A. Then I studied medicine 
a year; and then I went out West. 
Q. Where did you study medicine? A. At Philadelphia. 
Q. Then you went West. Where? A. Then I went 
West, and went into private practice. I was in Chicago a year, 
and I was in Detroit. 
Q. Connected with any hospital? A. I was connected 
with the medical college, and at the same time I was connected 
with the Catholic retreat for the insane. I had medical charge 
of it. 
Q. And how long were you in charge of the Catholic retreat 
for the insane? A. I think it was about three years; I had 
the medical care, — nothing to do with the general manage- 
ment. 
Q. Then where did you go? A. I went to the count}’ 
insane hospital and almshouse; that was in the immediate 
vicinity of the city. I remained there two or three years, and 
came from there directly to Tewksbury. 
Q. So that, at the time when you went to Tewksbury, you 
had had how many years in the treatment of the insane ? 
Gov. Butler. He said he was only the medical man at one 
place. 
Mr. Brown. I know; but I want to know what experience 
he had in the treatment of the insane. 
A. In the sisters’ hospital I was the only physician, and, of 
course, the sisters had the care of the hospital; they sent for 
me nights, or at any time when there was need of a physician. 
Q. That was the Sisters of Charity ? A. Yes, sir ; that is 
the order. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2157 
Q. What was the name of this Catholic retreat? A. The 
legal name is the Michigan State Retreat for the Insane. 
Q. The Michigan State Retreat for the Insane? A. Yes, 
sir; that is the legal name of it; it was established a good many 
years ago. 
Q. Then you came to Tewksbury; in 1875? A. Yes, sir; 
in the fall; in October. 
Q. The fall of 1875 ; and you have been there continuously 
since that time, have you? A. I have ; yes, sir. 
Q. And you have been the physician in charge, have you ? 
A. Resident physician is the title. 
Q. Now, what physicians have you had under 3rou during 
that time? A. I was associated first with Dr. Marsh — Nellie 
M. Marsh. 
Q. Well, go on and state. A. Dr. George E. Putney, 
Dr. E. Q. Marston, Dr. Charles Foster, Dr. Edwin F. Cum- 
mings, Dr. Wendell P. Abbott, — whose name was previously 
Kenney, on the books, but whose present name is Wendell P. 
Abbott, — and his wife, Mrs. Julia P. Abbott. 
Q. Who else? A. Dr. Cutter, Dr. E. J. Cutter, Dr. 
Anna M. Wilkin. 
Q. She is there at present ? A. Sh'e is at present there ; 
Dr. William D. Otterson. 
Q. Dr. William D. Otterson. How long has Miss Wilkin 
been there? A. She came there, if I recollect correctly,— 
she has been there since a year ago last Christmas, or first of 
of January ; somewhere about such time as that. 
Q. Well, now, I want you to tell me, when you first came 
there in 1875, what was the condition of the department for the 
insane at Tewksbury? A. The buildings were put up with 
special reference to economy, and the provisions made for 
isolating cases, particularly those that were disorderly, were 
very poor. There was a room under the stairs where some 
very bad cases were kept, and there was a room, — there were 
three, six rooms in the top of the house, which were made as 
strong rooms, and were immediately over the three rooms 
occupied by officers. Those were the only rooms that were in 
use for the violent insane, or the healthy insane. 
Q. And that refers to both the male and female wards? A. 
I am speaking, now, of the whole building. 
Q. The whole building? A. Yes, sir. We asked for an 
appropriation to make additional rooms for isolating cases, so as 2158 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
to secure more quiet for the nervous ones, and to enable us to 
keep them — the disturbed ones — from injuring the others, and 
we secured about forty-eight of these little rooms, single rooms 
all but three or four of them. 
♦ 
Q. And when was that? A. I am not sure of the date of 
it; I think it was in 1876. 
Q. 1876? A. The latter part of 1876. 
Q. Prior to that time had any of these rooms, such as you 
speak of, existed in the insane department? A. They did 
not, except the strong rooms I spoke of up at the top of the 
house. They were so far up they had that disadvantage ; they 
were far away from the attendants, who were small in number, 
and, consequently, they could not watch the patients as was 
desirable. 
Q. Well, now, take the bathing apparatus when you went 
therein 1875; what was it in the insane department? A. On 
one end the bathing facilities were very good ; that is, the newer 
end. 
Q. And what did they consist of? A. They consisted of 
six tubs, each tub being separated from the one adjoining by a 
wooden partition. 
Q. That was in 1875? A. That was when the house was 
first built, that was built. 
Q. And was that the part that Mr. and Mrs. Barker had 
charge of? A. No, sir ; that is the part Mr. Emmons French 
had the care of at that time. 
Q. At that time, when you went there? A. And that Mr. 
and Mrs. Bean now have the charge of. 
Gov. Butler. Who is that ? 
Mr. Brown. Mr. and Mrs. Bean. That is the lady you in- 
quired about the other day. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. That is the lady you expressed the hope would 
be here, the other day. 
Gov. Butler. I hope 1 shan’t be disappointed. 
The Witness. At the other end there were in each part 
two batli-tubs, individual tubs, that were used whenever a 
patient was in need of a bath, from tilth or any special reason, 
from day to da}'; there was, also, on each side of the old half, 
a pond or tank ; call it a pond, a tank. 
Q. What were the dimensions of it? A. Perhaps twelve 
feet square, something of that kind. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2159 
Q. Well, now, then, that was the part where Mr. and Mrs. 
Barker were, was it? A. It was ; yes. 
Q. You recollect them, I suppose? A. Very wTell; yes. 
Q. You recollect Mr. and Mrs. Dudley ? A. I do. 
Q. Within your knowledge, while Mr. or Mrs. Barker, or 
Mr. or Mrs. Dudley were connected with the institution, were 
any considerable number of people bathed in the same water? 
A. At the weekly bath. 
Q. State what the fact was. A. Mr. and Mrs. Dudley 
had no occasion, and I don’t think they ever did bathe two 
patients in the same water. 
Gov. Butler. They don’t say they did, either. 
The Witness. What? 
Gov. Butler. Go on. 
Mr. Brown. Go on. 
The Witness. But I don’t know but Mr. and Mrs. Barker,— 
for a short time they bathed the patients in this tank, but I 
don’t think it was continued a very long time. 
Q. Well, what was the occasion of it? A. I think it was 
the custom of establishments for the poor. 
Q. Well, were there at this very time individual tubs in 
which filthy cases could have been put? A. There were two 
tubs in the room which were used from day to day. 
Q. Now, who had charge of the bathing at the time when 
Mr. Barker was there? A. Mr. Barker and his assistant; part 
of the time he had an assistant who superintended it. 
Q. Now, sir, was there any reason, within your knowledge, 
why Mr. Barker should have bathed filthy persons all together in 
the same water, except his own preference? A. I don’t think 
he ever bathed filthy persons, — I think they were very partic- 
ular not to do that, — but they bathed the whole number, a 
large number, at least, ten or a dozen, in this pool, because it 
was the custom of the place for a while. Then that was done 
away with ; I think it was done away with very soon after I 
went there ; I remember seeing it done at the time. 
Q. Well, Doctor, supposing that any one testified that filthy 
persons were bathed in that bath in the same water, do you 
know of any reason why it was necessary to have been done, 
or why it should have been done, except for the convenience of 
the part}7 who was doing it? A. I do not. 
Gov. Butler. How is that? 
Q. Was your attention ever called by Mr, or Mrs. Dudley, 2160 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
or by Mr. or Mrs. Barker, to the condition of a woman who 
was said to have been kicked ; bruised on her back or side? A. 
I don’t recollect any case, now. They called in}- attention to 
cases almost daily that required my attention, — of sickness, or 
something of that kind. 
Q. Well, did you ever know, in the insane or any other de- 
partment, any person to be kicked or bruised in that way by 
any attendant? A. I have known, —there have been instances 
from time to time when there have been difficulties between the 
patients and their attendants. We have very few attendants 
there, and sometimes a violent patient will have a struggle with 
an attendant; and, therefore, it would happen sometimes that 
the patient as well as the attendant would get some bruises. I 
don’t recall, now, any instance where — 
Q. Well, was your attention ever called to a case of Emmons 
Young kicking or bruising an insane patient? A. Emmons 
French. 
Q. Emmons French, I should say. A. There was a case 
which was called to the attention of the trustees, and Mr. 
Elliot went over there, — I don’t know whether any one else 
did, — and made a personal examination into it. I don’t recol- 
lect that the patient was at all injured by it. Mr. French told 
us that he was attacked by the patient, and that he had a 
struggle with the patient, but the patient was a health}' person ; 
I don’t remember that there was any injury done to her; she 
was a very strong, healthy person. 
Q. Did she die within a short time, Doctor? A. I am quite 
sure she did not. 
Q. Do you recollect any case where Emmons French kicked 
or bruised an insane person who died shortly after, and whose 
back was covered with bruises,—black and blue spots? A. 
I don’t remember any case where it was — 
Q. Was there any such — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me; allow him to finish his state- 
ment. 
Mr. Brown. Go on, Doctor. 
Gov. Butler. Let us see; I want the full denial of that, if 
he chooses to deny it. 
Q. Had you finished, Doctor? 
Gov. Butler. He had not finished. 
A. I don’t remember any case where I believed that he did* 
Gov. Butler. That is not the question asked. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2161 
Q. I don’t ask you that; I want to know what is the fact. 
Leave your belief out for the present; I want to know what the 
fact is. Was there any case within your knowledge where 
Emmons French kicked or otherwise injured any person who 
died afterwards and who had black and blue spots upon their 
back or sides? A. I should answer that question no. 
Q. No ; very well. Was an}' such case ever called to your 
attention b}r Mr. or Mrs. Dudley, or by Mr. or Mrs. Barker 
during their sojourn at the hospital? A. I don’t remember of 
any such case. 
Q. You knew Emmons French, did you, Doctor, very well? 
A. Very well, indeed. 
Q. What was his character as an attendant; was he effi- 
cient? A. Very efficient. 
Q. Kind-hearted? A. I always thought so. 
Q. And gentle in his management of the insane, so far as 
you ever saw? A. He was a good manager ; I should not say 
that gentleness was his chief characteristic. 
Q. Was he ungentle ; was he rough? A. I don’t think he 
was unnecessarily rough. I think he was kind to them and I 
think he treated them well. 
Q. Well, was he rough? A. I never considered him rough 
in his manners. 
Q. Ilis wife was there with him, was she not? 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) In his manners? A. In his man 
agement. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) In his manners toward the insane; 
that is what I am getting at. A. In his manners, I should 
say. 
Q. He was not rough. His wife was there with him, was 
she not? A. She was. 
Q. Do you know where she is now ? A. I do not. 
Q. Do you know she has been married again? A. I have 
heard so ; I don’t know. 
Q. She is now Mrs. Young, do you know? A. I have 
heard that that was her name. 
Q. Well, now, Doctor, take the insane department and tell 
me what changes have been made in the administration of that 
department since you have been there? A. There has been 
an increase in the number of attendants. 
Q. What increase? A. When Mr. Emmons French died, 
there was an effort made to have no men in that end of the 2162 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
building, to see how they could get along, and Mrs. Emmons 
French was .placed in charge, with two assistants. When I went 
there there were four in the whole building; since that time the 
number has been increased to seven, and it was increased after 
I had been there about a year and a half, I should say, — not all 
at once, but, in a general wa}’, in that length of time. Mrs. 
Emmons French was changed, and it was thought best to return 
to the old system, and Mr. and Mrs. Dudley took the place of 
the three ladies who had been in control of it. 
Q. Why was it thought best to return to the old system of 
having men there? A. There was a want of skill and good 
character in the management, we thought, of the patients ; more 
with reference to’the care of the building, general cleanliness, 
and, perhaps, we might add, the harmony of the officers. 
Q. Well, now, an}- other change that has been made since 
you have been there? A. There has been a great improve- 
ment in the water closets. 
Q. When were these constructed? A. They were con- 
structed at different times on the new end of the building, I 
think, the year after we got the new rooms. 
Gov. Butler. That leaves us without any light; we don’t 
know when they got the new rooms 
The Witness The new rooms were put in,—I have not 
these dates in my mind ; they are in the annual reports of the 
institution. 
Gov. Butler. 1 wish you would look them up, Doctor; you 
can easily tell by looking at the auditor’s reports. 
The Witness. We had an appropriation, I think, of $3,000 
for water closets at the new end, and what was practically a 
separate building, outside of the other building, was constructed 
to contain these closets and allow the patients to enter from the 
dormitories, which they were never able to do before. And, 
subsequently, another similar appropriation was made for the 
old end, and those were put in. 
Q. Well, any other change that you think of? A. The 
water service has been improved by connecting with the reser- 
voir. When the reservoir was direct!}’ connected with the pump- 
works in the valley, the lower portion of the building was 
connected with the reservoir so as to get a larger and better 
supply of water. 
Q. Has there been any material alteration in the quality and 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2163 
character of the food? A. We have allowed the insane but- 
ter, which they didn’t have before. 
Q. When was that? A. That was in the fall of’76. 
Q. The fall of ’76; and they have had butter ever since? 
A. Ever since ; they have all they want of it, morning and 
evening. 
Q. What else? A. That is, if the}’ ask for more it is 
given to them. We have increased the heating of the build- 
ing. In the new end the heating was not thought to be suffi- 
cient, and more radiators have been put in, and a large stove in 
the basement; and, also, new arrangements for heating hot 
water, — a boiler and a stove connected with it that heats the 
water for each section. 
Q. Has there been any change in the character of the bed- 
ding and beds, etc? A. I don’t remember an}7 change in that 
respect. 
Q. Well, now, with the exception of the butter, has there 
been any change in the character of the food? A. I don’t 
know that there has been any in its, — as far as its value as 
food is concerned ; there have been changes in the actual kind 
of food given out. 
Q. Well, what change in that regard? A. I don’t know 
what was furnished before I went there. 
Q. Since you went there ? A. At one time they were not 
having any corn-meal mush, and that was given to them ; and, 
then, we have changed and given them more oat-meal; and, one 
time, we gave them a good deal of dip-toast, and we found they 
didn’t like it, and we stopped it. Sometimes we give them brown 
bread ; and then we, — in summer we don’t give them so much 
food of that kind ; we give them food that is more laxative in 
winter than we do in summer; try to change it a little. 
Q. Well, has there been any period of the time that you 
have been connected with the Tewksbury almshouse that there 
was any unwholesome food served to any inmate in any depart- 
ment, that you know of? A. No instance, except when through 
some accident; incidentally, something on one occasion might 
be served out, same as it would be in any camp. 
Gov. Butler. A little louder ; I don’t hear you. 
The Witness. I say there have been isolated instances in 
which, through some mistake, food that was not perfectly good 
has been served out, the same as would happen in any camp or 
hospital; but if it was found before it was served out to be 2164 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
poor, it has always been taken back, and other food served; 
and, I think, that not oftener than once a year, perhaps, an 
error of that kind would happen to occur. 
Q. Now, for instance, give us an illustration, if you recol- 
lect any? A. I remember one instance in which the brine had 
got off of some beef, and the beef was served before they knew 
that it was out; and when the nurses giving it out noticed it, 
they ceased to give it out, and, of course, the patients went 
without meat that meal. 
Q. Now, any other instance that you recollect? A. I don’t 
recall any just now ; instances of that kind are very rare. 
Q. Now, what changes, if any, have been effected in the 
hospital—men’s and women’s hospital—outside of the insane de- 
partment? A. Formerly the number of women outnumbered 
the men. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) By “formerly,” when ; what year? 
A. The change began to appear about the time I went there, 
through the change in the settlement laws. I was informed, and 
the men began to grow more numerous in proportion ; conse- 
quently we had to make more provision for sick men. We com- 
menced to use the building known as 19 for a hospital for sick 
in connection with the “ short hospital,” which was also used 
for sick men, the women occupying the “ long hospital.” Then 
a dispensary was built in between the two, — the men’s and 
women’s hospitals, as they were called then,—it had previously 
been in the main building ; and there have not been many changes 
made in the building itself, except that. We had only one bath- 
tub, and we put in another one. 
Q. (By Mr. Bkown.) Has there ever been, since you have 
been there, any lack of sufficient bathing facilities, or any rea- 
son wlty more than one person should bathe in the same water? 
A. The bathing facilities were insufficient, but not such as to 
justify such a thing as that. 
Q. Well, was it ever done, except as some attendant saw fit 
to do it upon his own responsibility, within your knowledge? 
A. Not in any other way than that; it was by an attendant. 
Q. Was the matter ever called to your attention that more 
than one person was bathing in the same water? A. It was 
called to my attention. 
Q. When? 
Gov. Butler. We have been all over that once to-day ; we 
don’t want to go over it again. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2165 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon; my previous inquiry was 
confined to the story of Barker and Dudley and the insane de- 
partment ; now I am asking about something else. 
A. I don’t remember the date. As soon as I found the 
nurse did it I had a notice put up in the hospital that if any in- 
mate was bathed in the same water with another that they 
should report to me at once. 
Q. Did you call the attention of the attendant to that fact? 
A. I did. 
Q. And prohibit it ? A. I did ; and he complained that 
his facilities were poor, and that on that account he had some- 
times done this thing. 
Q. What was his name ? A. Rollins. 
Q. Rollins ; did you ever have any means of knowing how 
many times that took place? A. I didn’t know it was done 
at all before that, and I have been assured a great many times 
since that it was not done. 
Q. Have you investigated among your patients to ascertain 
whether the thing ever occurred again ? A. I have. 
Q. And never could discover that it had? A. Never 
could. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That it occurred since the notice 
was put up, you mean ? A. Since that time ; yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. He has not fixed that time ; I wish he would. 
Mr. Brown. I asked him to fix the time 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) When was that? A. I haven’t any 
means of fixing the time ; it occurred when — 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) When Rollins was there? A. 
When Rollins was there. 
Q. (Bj' Mr. Brown.) How long ago was that? 
Gov. Butler. We can tell when that was. 
A. I suppose it was four or five years ago. 
Q. Now, Doctor, at the present time are there sufficient 
bathing facilities throughout the entire hospital ? 
Gov. Butler. May I ask him what Rollins’s name is? 
The Witness. Charles T. 
Q. Are there sufficient bathing facilities throughout the en- 
tire hospital, almshouse ? A I think the bathing facilities are 
very fair. 
Q. Are they sufficient? A. They are sufficient for clean- 
liness. It would be a greater convenience if they were more 
ample in the men’s hospital; but the}' are sufficient — 2166 
CHAB1TABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. For cleanliness ? A. For cleanliness. 
Q. That is, }Tou can get along with them and keep your 
patients clean? A. Without any trouble at all; bathe each 
man in good water and plenty of it. 
Q. By the way, in regard to this water up there ; is it col- 
ored a little ? A. It is often colored by the iron pipes ; the 
pipes are all iron. 
Q. Where does it come from, some brook? A. It is 
pumped from a brook up into a reservoir, and from the reser- 
voir it flows down into the institution, some of it directly into 
the institution and some of it into tanks where it lies and is 
then drawn off into the places where it is used. 
Q. Now, Doctor, come to the lying-in hospital, or, at least, 
the foundling hospital; were there any foundlings there when 
you went there in 1875 ? A. There were ; yes. 
Q. Now, Doctor, you were there, connected with that alms- 
house, from 1875 so long as the foundlings were carried there, 
— were there ? A. Excuse me ? 
Q. From ’75, when you went there, you continued there so 
long as they kept foundlings? A. Yes. 
Q. And had charge of them? A. Yes, sir; generally. 
Q. Generally; and, also, of the lying-in department? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, I want }rou to give us a description of 
these foundlings, generally. A. The Massachusetts Infant 
Asylum stood ready to take the healthy children, to a certain 
degree, and there were other parties — 
Gov. Butler. Now, that is not a description of the chil- 
dren. 
O- You are trying now to give a description of those that 
didn’t go ; I want a description of those that did go. A. 
were mostly very poor specimens of their kind ; they were often 
drugged, and generally were emaciated. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) When the}’ came? A. Drugged 
when what? 
Q. Drugged when they came? A. So the nurses said, 
those that brought them, the attendants. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is, that they had been drugged 
— A. Said that they had given them medicine to make them 
sleep. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; certainly. 
The Witness. On their way up. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2167 
Gov. Butler. Thank you. 
Q. What else ? A. Their general condition was bad. 
Q. Give us the particulars in which they were bad. A. 
Some had evidences of constitutional disease. 
Q. Such as what? A. Scrofula, syphilis; and some had 
evidence of improper nourishment, not from want of food, but 
from the fact of being bottle fed and want of care. In winter, 
for instance, some of them would have a cough from the expos- 
ure to which they had been subjected. Quite a number of them 
had been left out on doorsteps and in woodwards and such 
places in the winter time, and had acquired some disease of the 
lungs from that cause. They used to come to us in winter the 
same as in summer. 
Q. Some came from long distances ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Came from all parts of the State, I suppose? A. Some- 
times ; there were some instances where they came actually 
dead. In one instance, the woman that brought the child did 
not know it was dead till it was unwrapped. 
Q. Then she found it was dead? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do 3’ou recollect the name of that child and when it was ? 
A. No, I do not. There were some that looked well, looked 
healthy. 
Q. Now, Doctor, after these foundlings arrived at the insti- 
tution, state what you did for them? A. We had a room 
assigned for the care of foundlings in the building known as 
No. 20, the latter part of the time. The first part of the time I 
was there it was in the room No. 7, in the main building ; but 
we didn’t think that was so good for them, so they were taken 
awa}T to this other place, very soon after I went there. The3* 
were treated by the nurse very much as babies ordinaril)' are, 
washed and clothed ; and they were fed mostty on cow’s milk. 
We always had a cow especially selected for the milk for these 
babies ; the farmer picked out what he thought was the best 
cow, and from time to time made changes, so that the}T would 
always have a good cow, a new milch cow. And we had cans 
painted in a peculiar wa3’, so that they would be recognizable, 
and the cows were milked into, — the cow was milked into this 
can ; one can was used while the other was being aired. For 
the most part we relied on cow’s milk for their food. 
Q. Now, Doctor, did 3rou exercise the best judgment and 
skill you had in trying to save these children? A. We did; 
and we had a great deal of discussion and consideration with 2168 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
regard to the foundlings. A great many physicians visited the 
institution, and we asked their advice as to what was the best 
way of treating them. 
Q. Do you recollect the name of any of these physicians ? 
A. I remember that Dr. Wheelwright took a very active 
interest in it. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You mean hy Dr. Wheelwright, 
the member — A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Of the in-door poor or the out-door poor department, 1 
don’t know which ? A. Yes. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Do you recollect the name of any 
other physician? A. I don’t now recall any. As they would 
visit the institution, just to go through, we would show them 
these babies and ask their opinion as to the advisability of 
different methods of treatment, and there were a number of 
different methods tried. When any new doctor would take the 
care of the foundlings he would think it was all useless for them 
to die so fast, and he would have great enthusiasm, and he 
would intimate very plainly that he thought his predecessors 
had been very derelict in their duty; but he would soon come 
to the same conclusion with the others. 
Q. Well, now, when you speak of the new doctor, you mean 
the changes — A. The different persons as associates who 
would enter the field. 
Q. Who would enter the institution. A. Yes, sir ; I had 
the same feeling m}'self, when I first went there, that it was all 
useless for these foundlings to die as they had died before. 
Q. Now, did you make an effort, the best }’ou could? A. I 
studied all the books I could find on the subject, and advised on 
it, and did everything I could do under the circumstances. 
Q. Exausted all your resources? 
Gov. Butler. Under the circumstances? 
The Witness. Under the circumstances. 
Q. Now, when you say under the circumstances, what do 
you mean ? A. I mean two circumstances. 
Q. Well, give them to us. A. Putting babies together, and 
feeding them on cow’s milk ; feeding them on milk other than 
human milk. If the babies can be separated and can be nursed, 
even in part, they can some of them can be saved. But, of this 
class, there aie some that cannot be saved ; but some very 
feeble children can be saved if they are properly wet-nursed. 
Q. Is there any difficulty in getting wet nurses for these 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2169 
children? A. There is difficulty in getting them without pay- 
ing them. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Without what? A. Without 
paying them. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is, they won’t come for fun? 
A. No. 
Q. Did you ever try to get wet nurses for the syphilitic 
children? A. No, sir. 
Q. Is it possible to get any? A. I never did, nor I should 
not allow a woman to nurse a s}Tphilitic child. 
Q. So the syphilitic children it is difficult to treat in the wray 
you have suggested? A. Of course it would be unadvisable to 
try it. \ 
Q. Well now, wdiat force did you have there of attendants 
to take care of these foundling children ? A. We had a paid 
assistant and inmates. 
Q. Now, did you make application for a larger force and a 
better force? A. I was trying to recall what the nature of the 
force was just at that time ; I think that the force was increased 
while the foundlings were there to this extent, that a paid night 
assistant wras engaged, if I am not mistaken. 
Q. And was she a trained nurse? A. If you mean a 
graduate of the training school, she was not. 
Q. A person who had had large experience? A. We have 
always had persons wrho have been married in that department, 
I think, generally; I won’t say always, we have generally,— 
the person who has had the charge of the babies has been a 
person who had been married, — Mrs. — 
Q. Did you have all the facilities there for the care of these 
foundling children that you desired, aside from the wet nurses? 
A. We did not; we were not satisfied with the inmate help. 
Q. Did you ever try to get other in its place ? A. I think 
we made application for other help. 
Q. Did you get it? A. We were always told that there 
was not means to engage any more. 
Q. Not means to engage any more ; and when do you recol- 
lect to have first made an application and been met with that 
answer ? A. I don’t remember that I ever made a written ap- 
plication. 
Q. Well, any application, in any form of words, written or 
oral? A. I don’t; I have no definite recollection about that. 2170 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Do you recollect whether you made such an application 
more than once? 
Gov. Butler. He don’t even remember he made it once. 
Mr. Brown. Yes, he does ; he said he did make it, but he 
don’t recollect when it was. Now, I ask him if he made it more 
than once. 
A. It was a very common complaint that our inmate help 
was insufficient. 
Gov. Butler. It is now a question of making application to 
the superintendent. 
Q. I ask you, Doctor, whether you recollect to have made 
application, either written or oral, more than once, for more 
skilled assistants in the foundling department?- A. I don’t 
remember about that part of it, any further thay that we fre- 
quently made complaints of the inadequacy of the inmate help. 
Q. And these complaints were made to whom? A. Made 
to the superintendent and trustees. 
Q. Now, Doctor, take the lying-in department; what force 
did you have there? A. We had a paid woman in charge, and 
generally an inmate woman, wffio was selected as being suitable 
for that kind of work, the best that we could get, and they 
managed the affairs with the aid of such women as were conva- 
lescent in the department as could be secured. 
Q. Now, was there an}- part of the institution, at any time 
while you were there, where there was a deficiency in the beds 
and bedding? A. I don’t remember any such state of things, 
except once in a great while there might be. 
Q. Now, Doctor, do you recollect, during the time when Mr. 
and Mrs. Dudley were there, or Mr. and Mrs. Barker, of a 
woman who was confined in a cell iii the insane department on 
account of her filthy habits? A. I think there were a number 
of such cases. 
Q. Was there any case which did not receive attention every 
day, and whose room was not properly cleansed every day or 
oftener? A. If their rooms were not properly taken care of 
it was the fault of the attendants, and I don’t remember any 
such instance. 
Q. Was anything of the kind ever called to your attention by 
Mr. or Mrs. Barker or Mr. or Mrs. Dudley ? A. They, of course, 
would not remind me of their own deficiencies. 
Q. I don’t ask you that; I want to know whether they did 
ever call your attention to it? A. I don’t remember any such. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2171 
Q. You have read their testimony upon that subject, have 
}’ou ? A. I have. 
Q. Now, if any such thing took place do you know of any- 
body who was responsible for it except the party who testified 
about it, — Mr. and Mrs. Dudley and Mr. and Mrs. Barker? 
Gov. Butler. What do you mean b}r that, sir? 
Mr. Brown. I mean just what I say. 
Gov. Butler. They have testified to what they found when 
they got there; they never testified to anything after they did 
get there. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; they found this girl up there. 
Mr. Brown. They didn’t come there till after the doctor 
had been there some time. 
Gov. Butler. I know they didn’t. 
Mr. Brown. Now he is testifying to a period which was 
before they came there, and, therefore, their story is not true. 
Gov. Butler. Why not? They say that when they came there 
they found this woman in the attic, for instance, and they went 
to work and cleaned up ; and he has already testified that things 
were in such a state they discharged Mrs. French and took 
them. 
Mr. Brown. Did what? 
Gov. Butler. Discharged Mrs. French and took them. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon; he has said nothing to 
show that Mrs. French did not perform her duty ; her husband 
died. 
Gov. Butler. I know; her husband died and it went on a 
while under her, and then it was not found quite right, he 
testified. 
Mr. Brown. Not quite right on account of neatness, because 
there was not proper force. 
Gov. Butler. There was not proper force to enforce neat- 
ness, or whatever that might be. Well, they stated so when 
they went there. 
Mr. Brown. We won’t have any difference of opinion about 
it, because I want to know what the fact was, that is all. 
The Witness. This patient will make her room in a very 
filthj" condition in a very few hours, while one person was going 
away and another person was coming. 
Q. Was there any such patient who was confined, — any 
instance, — take the time when you first went to the institution, 2172 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
prior to the time when Mr. or Mrs. Barker came there, or Mr. 
and Mrs. Dudley, — was there any person confined in a room 
with filthy habits who did not receive daily attention? A. I 
don’t think that the patient was ever neglected. 
Q. Do you recollect the name of the patient they testified 
about? A. Just this minute I don’t recall the name ; but the 
reason why the patient was kept in that room was because it 
was the only suitable room at that time ; very soon afterwards 
we provided better facilities. 
Q. Now, was there any instance of that kind, Doctor, where 
a room would go without care for several daj’s ? A. I don’t 
think it ever happened. 
Q. How frequently, Doctor, did visit that insane depart- 
ment for the purpose of inspecting and seeing how things were 
going on? A. The insane department has been habitually 
visited once a day by some physician. When, some of the time, 
personally I did not do it, one of m37 assistants would do it; 
and, so long ago as that, it would be impossible for me to tell 
how often I visited, the aS3*lum. 
Q. What was 3Tour habit in that regard? A. If there was 
no other ph3’sician visiting the house, it has been m}T habit to 
visit it daily, and often oftener, if a 113’ case demanded especial 
attention. 
Q. Let us see ; there has been within two or three da3rs a 
little outbreak in the insane department, hasn’t there ? 
Gov. Butler. I think we won’t go into that. 
Mr. Brown. What is that? 
Gov. Butler. I think we won’t go into that. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know whether we will or not; if it 
didn’t take place we certainly won’t. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; if it did, I propose to object 
to it. 
Mr. Brown. Wouldn’t it be well to find out whether it did 
or not before you object? 
Gov. Butler. No ; because it isn’t of au3r consequence 
whether it did or didn’t. 
Mr. Brow7n. Well, Doctor, we are waiting for 3'our answer. 
Gov. Butler. I am objecting; 37ou need not answer that 
question, Doctor. 
Mr. Brown. Well, what is the objection? 
Gov. Butler. I have stated it, sir; that it is of no conse- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2173 
quence what has happened within a day or two, or two or three 
days, or a week. 
The Witness. I don’t remember any such case. 
Mr. Brown. He says he don’t remember anything of the 
kind, so we won’t pursue it. 
Gov. Butler. Very -well; I supposed you knew what you 
were asking about. 
Mr. Brown. All I knew was what I heard from one of your 
agents ; he seems to be unreliable. 
Gov. Butler. One of whose agents ? 
Mr. Brown. Yours. 
Gov. Butler. Good God! I don’t know; who is he ? I 
give you notiee, once for all, I would turn them all out, from A 
to Izzard, if I had the power. Now, don’t talk about my agents 
any more. I have not seen one I would suffer to take care of a 
hog, from the highest to the lowest. 
Mr. Brown. With a tattooed skin. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; not a hog with a tattooed skin even. 
Q. Now, Doctor, if there is in the institution anything want- 
ing in the way of diet in the hospital or in the insane depart- 
ment, any article of food wanted there, I should like to know 
what it is, which has not been served there during the time since 
you have been there? A. When you speak of the diet, of 
course people have different ideas as to wdiat is desirable. 
Q. I mean what you would recommend as proper for the in- 
sane department or the hospital department. A. Our diet has 
been based partly upon the appropriation and partly upon the 
diet of the hospitals of the army, which seem to me to be suffi- 
ciently good. Our diet in the hospital and insane departments 
has been about the same as I was accustomed to see served to 
the soldiers, except, of course, that we have a great deal more 
milk than was furnished in the army. 
Q. Well, are there any articles of food which you think 
should be added to the diet list of the hospital or insane depart- 
ment which not have been there used? A. A great many things 
that would be very grateful to the patients there, which might be 
furnished to an unlimited degree ; but when it comes to what is 
good for their health and recovery, I think that such things have 
been furnished. 
Q. Within the means allowed, you mean? A. Yes, sir; 
upon the basis that was laid down for us. 
Q. Now, take the matter of attendance in the hospital; has 2174 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
there been sufficient attendance in the hospital department, both 
men’s and women’s? A. I think there has with the inmate 
help which we have had. 
Q. Well, take the department which Mr. Smith has had to 
do with, Mr. Henry A. Smith ; do you recollect the number of 
patients he has had? 
Gov. Butler. His wasn’t one of the hospital wards, was it? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, it was a hospital ward ; I ask him about — 
The Witness. Convalescent ward ; that is, if you mean the 
old gentleman. 
Q. I mean the old gentleman, Henry A. Smith; was he in 
the convalescent ward or hospital ward ? A. His ward con- 
tained convalescents, old men and epileptics,—persons who 
don’t usually require much medicine. 
Q. Now, for instance, is there sufficient attendance there? 
A. I think there is, because he can employ the assistance of 
these epileptics and such persons when they are not sick. 
Q. He can’t do the work except with their assistance, can 
he? A. Oh, no. 
Q. Is there any department where the work can be done 
with the present attendants without the aid of the inmates? 
A. There is not. 
Q. No department? A. No department. 
Q. In the almshouse, which does not depend for necessary 
labor upon the inmates? A There is no part; no, sir. 
Q. Well, now, Doctor, }*ou know Dr. E. G. West, I sup- 
pose ? A. I do ; slightly. 
Q. Have }rou read his account of that case that he and you 
attended ? A. I have. 
Q. Now, tell us about that? A. The patient was — 
Q. What was her name; do }rou recollect? A. Maria 
Farrey, I think, was the name. She was in what is technically 
called “ difficult labor”; it was impossible for her to deliver 
herself. She had been in labor a considerable length of time 
without making an}’ progress, and it was necessary to have as- 
sistance in order to save her life ; and there was some hemor- 
rhage, which made it important that the assistance should be 
rendered promptly. I applied the instruments — forceps — and 
found them inefficient. 
Q. Why inefficient? A. They slipped off, slipped off 
from the head, and the head, then, had made no progress. I 
sent to the engineer, or went, I forget which, and asked him for 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2175 
a pointed instrument, a steel instrument, and he handed me a 
round file, which was referred to. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Commonly called a rat-tail file? 
A. Yes ; it was larger a good deal than the small ones usually 
called by that name. And I didn’t endeavor to perform crani- 
otomy, but I thought I might, perhaps, make the bones of the 
head overlap ; and that is the reason why I used these two in- 
struments, the file and the screw,—endeavored to cause an over- 
lapping of those bones. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Let us see ; that you undertook to 
do by inserting these instruments in the sutures? A. In the 
suture, and placing one bone over the other. 
Q. And did you succeed? A. And I think I succeeded in 
loosening them, so that when I turned the head it pressed to- 
gether and facilitated its exit. 
Q. Now, Doctor, do you know of any other instrument with 
which you could have accomplished that any more perfectly than 
you did? 
Gov. Butler. He don’t say he did ; he says he thinks he 
did. 
Q. Have you any doubt, Doctor, but what you accomplished 
what you tried to do ? A. I accomplished what I tried to do, 
because I delivered the woman successfully. 
Gov. Butler. That is the delivery of her; that is another 
matter. However, I don’t care. 
The Witness. What I mean is, I could not tell; the bones 
did press together, but I could not tell whether it was due to 
what I did then, or whether it was due afterwards to the pres- 
sure which was brought to bear upon it by the operation of 
delivery. 
Q. But you know that thing hadn’t taken place before, and 
it did after you used the instruments ? 
Gov. Butler. Perhaps he has no proof it hadn’t before. 
A. I performed what is called the operation of turning, and, 
of course, I had to pull very hard to deliver ; that was perfectly 
justifiable, because there was no other way of saving the 
woman’s life. 
Q. Did you ever know that case to occur before or since? 
A. I have had one other case of a similar kind in which I — 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Since, or before? A. Since that 
time. I procured an instrument for opening the head, and, 
when I had a case of that kind afterwards, I opened the head. 2176 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, was there any instrument at 
the institution for that purpose at the time of this case of Far- 
rell? A. If there was I didn’t know where it was. 
Q. You had never seen it? A. I had never seen it. 
Q. Was the institution well supplied? A. There was 
what was called an obstetrical case, and it had a good many in- 
struments in it, but that particular instrument I never found. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Did you find a becket for it? 
Mr. Brown. Did you find a place for it ? 
A. No, sir; the case wa’n’t made, — it is a morocco roll 
case, so that any instrument could go in. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) This woman, I believe, lived? A. 
She did ; she came down out of the hospital perfectly well. 
Q. Ever been back since? A. Not to my knowledge. 
Q. She was in no way injured by the use of these instru- 
ments? A. Not at all; I didn’t subject her to any exposure 
to them. » 
Q. Have you and Dr. West ever had any differences? A. 
I have never had any acquaintance with him since that time ; 
he was disappointed that we didn’t employ him, that is all there 
was. 
Q. And why wasn’t he further employed? A. He hadn’t 
received the degree of M.D. 
Q. And consequently could not be employed? A. Could 
be employed. 
Q. Under the statute that was the fact, was it? A. It 
was ; yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Was there any statute about that? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir; the statute required that a person 
should be a graduate. 
The Witness. The word “ physician” is construed as mean- 
ing a person having a diploma. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know of an}’ statute that said that; I 
have known some very good physicians who haven’t got it. 
The Witness. I mean that is the way they construed it. 
Q. Was there any difference between you and Dr. West, at 
the time of this Farrell case, as to what ought to be done? A. 
I don’t remember that he had anything to say about it. 
Q. Do you remember that he expressed any disapproval of 
what you were doing? A. Not at all; no, sir ; I don’t remem- 
ber that he said anything about it, either before or afterwards 
to me ; either at the time or afterwards, I mean. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2177 
Q. For how long a time, to your knowledge, had he had 
charge of that case before you undertook to perform this opera- 
tion? A. Well, he was watching the case, — he was away 
during the dayr before, and I watched the case then, and then I 
retired for the night, leaving him to watch the case; and he 
waked me up to say she had made no progress. 
Q. You recollect what time in the night that was? A. I 
have no recollection about the hour; no reason to doubt what 
he testified about it. 
Q. Well, has there ever been a proper supply of instruments 
at that institution since you have been there? A. We have 
always endeavored to keep down our expenses in that respect. 
Gov. Butler. Leave out about keeping down expenses ; has 
there been a proper supply ? 
The Witness. There never has been there. 
Q. Is there a proper supply there now under the new ad- 
ministration ? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know — 
Mr. Brown. He came from there this morning. 
Q. Was there this morning when you left? A. There are 
a good many instruments we should like to have which we don’t 
have. 
Q. Well, like to have; do you need them? A. I don’t 
think there is any instrument absolutely necessary to the house 
that we don’t have ; I always endeavor to have everything, either 
belonging to myself or belonging to the house. A good many 
of the instruments are my own. 
Q. You got along on that occasion with a rat-tail file and a 
screw-driver, but do you want to do it again? A. No, sir; 
we are not open to that danger again. 
Q. Because you have got a supply. Now, what are the 
things which, in your judgment, it would be proper to have 
there as instruments, in order to have that institution properly 
equipped for all the exigencies which may arise? Give us a list 
of them. A. I have written out a list of instruments. 
[Producing a paper.] I own a good many instruments of my 
own, and where that is so, I have never asked the house to 
purchase. 
Q. Supposing you should leave to-day, and take your own 
instruments away, would the institution be deficient in the 
proper instruments? A. There are a good many instru- 
ments — 2178 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Just answer my question, first? A. It would be 
deficient. 
Q. It would be deficient; very well. Now, go on and state 
what you need. A. There are a good many instruments which 
come in a general operating case that are wanting there ; we 
have them ourselves ; every physician has to have them in his 
practice, and I have them belonging to myself; they don’t be- 
long to the house. They are small instruments, which are 
usually found in a physician’s pocket case. There are no in- 
struments for bone operating ; we have a good deal of that, — 
chisel, and such things. 
Q. That is, no instruments belonging to the institution now 
for bone operating? A. That is, there are no chisels. 
Q. How many do you need, and what do they cost? A. 
A full grown operating case costs $40 ; and, if they were to 
purchase, I should advise them to purchase a full case. 
Q. What else? A. Then there is no post mortem case. 
There are two or three knives that belong to the house. I have 
a good post mortem case of my own. There is no ophthalmo- 
scope for observing cataract and such things, to make a diag- 
nosis ; I have one of those. 
Q. Take a post mortem case ; what is the expense of that? 
A. A good one can be purchased for $12 ; from that up. That 
is a small price. I put the small price on this because it can 
be bought for that. 
Q. What is the cost of an ophthalmoscope? A. From 
$4.50 up to $20. 
Q. What else? A. For batteries they have two mechani- 
cal batteries that are operated by a crank. I have a chemical 
battery of my own. 
Q. Is there any chemical battery? A. There is none be- 
longing to the institution. 
Q. Do you need one there? A. We need one ; yes, sir. 
Q. What is the expense of that? A. There are various 
prices, from $15 to $75. 
Q. Go on to the next thing that you need ? A. Some phy- 
sicians think the laiyngoscope is necessary. 
Gov. Butler. You speak so low I don’t hear you. 
The Witness. Some physicians think the laryngoscope is 
necessary for observing the larynx. 
Q. Do you think so? A. I think every hospital should 
have one. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2179 
Q. How much is the expense of that? A. It costs $13.50. 
Q. Well, go on to the next? A. Some have thought that 
a microscope was required, but it is a matter for the house phy- 
sician. Most phyrsicians have them. 
Q. Is there any there now? A. Yes, sir, there are two; 
but none belonging to the institution. 
Q. What is the cost of those? A. From $65 to $150. 
Q. Go on to the next thing? A. There is one obstetric 
instrument that we do not have. 
Q. (By Gov. Butlkr.) One what? A. One obstetric 
instrument, a cranioclasp, which does not belong to the house, 
and which would cost $10. We have always got along without 
that, and I have never felt that it was necessary to get one, 
but the hospitals usually have them. 
Q. Do I understand that you have one? A. I have not; 
no, sir. 
Q. Nor the house, either? A. No, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Have you now read all the list of 
the things you think should be there? A. Yes, sir; besides 
what we have. 
Q. How much is the sum total? A. The general operating 
case costs $70, and I have put down under that head $35, as 
the price of half of it, as the price of the instruments we re- 
quire, because we have an amputating case which contains that 
part of the instruments. 
Q. What is the sum total of the things yrou need? A. 
About $290. Under the head of battery, electrical instruments, 
I have put $172. Because to carry out that method of treat- 
ment in its various branches would require that expenditure, if 
they chose to adopt it. 
Q. Now, let us go to another subject. Do you recollect 
Charles Johnston, that came there from Springfield, who had 
trouble with his legs ? A. Had his legs amputated. Ido. 
Q. Did you see him frequently while he was in the institu- 
tion? A. I did ; yes, sir. 
Q. Now, did he ever complain to you that he was not 
properly cared for there ? A. Not at all. I didn’t suppose 
that he had that feeling. 
Q. How frequently did you see him? A. I should say 
every day, almost. 
Q. How frequently did yTou converse with him ? A. When 
he first went there I conversed with him almost every' day. 2180 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, Doctor, in your judgment, was he properly treated 
while he was there? A. He had had his legs amputated and 
the ends of the stumps had not perfectly healed, and he had 
false legs, which he was advised by his surgeon not to wear, but 
to come to Tewksbury and get along without his stumps. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Without using them? A. With- 
out using his false legs for a while, so as to see if the}r would 
not heal; consequently, he went around on his knees. He had 
some pads —leather pads, that he wore on his knees, and he 
went around with those. He had every facility which we 
usually give to such people. He was in the hospital a portion 
of the time. 
Q. Have you read his testimon}'? A. I have. 
Q. Do you know any reason why he should have gone out in 
the snow and water on those stubs in the winter, except he de- 
sired to do so himself? 
Gov. Butler. To get his dinner. 
The Witness. I don’t think it was necessary for him to do 
so. I don’t remember his being put into a part of the house 
where it was necessary for him to walk out, and if he had com- 
plained to me he could easily have been put into a place where 
it would not have been necessary for him to do so. 
Q. Did he ever complain to you that he had to go out on 
these stubs in the water and snow to get his meals? A. I am 
quite sure he never did. 
Q. Well, I put the general question : Was there any partic- 
ular thing about which he ever complained to }'ou that he was 
not receiving proper attention and proper care ? A. The only 
complaint that he made to me was that his stumps didn’t heal. 
They had been operated upon by another surgeon, and I should 
not care to interfere with another surgeon’s operation ; we usu- 
ally allow a man free transportation from the institution back 
to Boston. 
Q. And in this case you did the same ? A. That is what I 
think was done. After he stayed awhile, and didn’t get well, 
he was sent back to the surgeon who operated upon him, that he 
might attend him. 
Q. Now, do you recollect the condition of those stubs when 
he came there, so that you could compare them. 
Gov. Butler. If he examined them. 
The Witness. I did examine them, to see their condition, 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2181 
when he came, and how they compared when he went away. I 
don’t think there was much difference. 
Q. Did you ever have your attention called to the fact that 
on account of this exposure these stubs were swollen or in- 
flamed? A. Not at all. 
Q. Or that any kind of disease set in on account of that ex- 
posure? A. Never did. 
Q. Did you ever hear him complain of anything of that kind ? 
A. I never did. 
Q. Do you know Frank Ilaberlin? A. Ido. 
Q. Is he at the institution now ? A. He is. 
Q. What is his condition ? A. He is in an advanced stage 
of consumption. 
Q. Is he able to come here as a witness, in your judgment? 
A. I should say he was as able now as he was before. He is 
not a man that would be benefited by travelling about. I do not 
think he is any worse, to all appearances, than he was when he 
came beforfe. 
Q. Do you know whether he keeps his bed ? A. He is up 
every day, I believe, and dressed. 
Q. Goes about the almshouse ? A. Goes out into the yard 
in front of the hospital. 
Q. Now, Doctor, during any part of the time that you have 
been connected with this institution, have you ever observed 
any reckless expenditure of mone}’, or waste of material, pro- 
visions, or anything of that kind? A. I don’t think I have. 
Q. Flow with regard to the clothing for the children in the 
lying-in department; is there sufficient of that, and of a proper 
quality ? A. I think there is. 
Q. Have you ever heard any complaint among the inmates 
that they didn’t get their clothing when they were about to be 
discharged? A. Once in a great while there will be complaint 
that some article of clothing is missing. 
Q. Well, how frequently? A. Perhaps once or twice a 
year, when a man misses his overcoat that he brought in with 
him, or misses a shirt, or something that went to the wash. 
Q. Do you recollect a child that was brought to the institu- 
tion by Mr. and Mrs. Carver, of Braintree? A. Not by that 
description. 
Q. Have you read the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Carver? 
A. I don’t remember that child. 
Q. Tell me this, Doctor: whether in your experience as a 2182 
CIIAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
physician, you have found that a change of milk would be suffi- 
cient to cause a child to be sick? A. From one cow to anoth- 
er? 
Q. A change of milk, from one cow’s milk to another cow’s 
milk — would that be sufficient to produce sickness in a baby ? 
A. In a young infant; yes, sir. 
Q. Now, what sickness would you expect to find? A. 
Some disease of the stomach or bowels; the alimentaiy canal. 
Q. And if it were allowed to develop what would be the 
result? A. It might be diarrhoea or vomiting. 
Q. You would naturally expect vomiting? A. If a child 
didn’t accustom itself, or adapt itself to this, I should expect it 
to continue. 
Q. Did you ever know skim milk to be administered to those 
babies up there ? A. No ; I never did. 
Q. Supposing it was, do 3-011 think it would be a serious 
injury? A. I don’t think it would, except as a matter of 
depriving them of a certain richness. don’t make an}r 
butter, and there is no cream used that I know of. 
Q. Well, the milk skimmed is simply deprived of a part of 
its nutritious qualities ? A. Yes. 
Q. That is, it would not be as nutritious. 
Gov. Butler. You are prejudiced that wa}\ 
The Witness. I never knew an}- child to be fed on skim 
milk since I have been there. 
Q. Well, now, take those children who died in the foundling 
department; it has been said that some of them died from star- 
vation, and it has been said that they were thin, and didn’t 
retain their food. If you recollect that condition of things, 
please state what was the cause that produced that effect. 
Gov. Butler. If you know. 
Mr. Brown, if you know. 
The Witness. Where there is an inability to digest a certain 
kind of food, the person dies with the same s}'mptoms as if they 
didn’t have any food at all; like our prisoners at Anderson- 
ville. They had piles of a certain kind of crackers right at 
their side, while the}’’ died of starvation, because 
the}- had not the power, in their condition, to digest that kind 
of food. 
Gov. Butler. And it would have been well to have changed 
the crackers. 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2183 
The Witness. But when you say died of starvation you 
do not mean they died of inability to digest, but an insufficient 
supply of good nourishing food generally. 
Q. Now, was there any insufficient supply at Tewksbury of 
nourishing food? A. Never, that I know of. 
Q. And there was no economy ? A. The idea of economy 
was not used to prevent their having what we thought would be 
useful for them, except in the matter of wet-nursing. We had 
no means to hire wet nurses. 
Q. Had you ever had any experience in any other foundling 
institution, or in airy other institution where foundlings wTere 
kept? A. I never — I have been in institutions where there 
were that same class of children, but I never classified them ; 
put them by themselves, or tabulated them, so as to get results. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do you mean to say 3am have 
been in charge? A. I have had charge of an institution 
where there were some foundlings. I have had medical care, 
but never what yon understand by7 being technically in charge. 
Q. (B}' Mr. Brown.) And the results of those foundlings 
were reported with a great mass of other inmates, so that no 
experience did you ever derive upon the foundlings alone? A. 
No. I think that is one reason why7 the statistics which have 
been published at Tewksbury have been so startling to the 
medical profession, as well as to others ; — because they are 
not accustomed to tabulating that class of cases by them- 
selves. 
Q. That is what I wanted to ask you. Do you know of any 
other instit ution in Massachusetts which is like Tewksbury in 
that particular, wdiete the foundlings alone are reported by 
themselves ? A. I do not. 
Q. Do you know of an}r other institution anywhere in the 
country7 w7here the foundlings kept at the institution are those 
selected as the worst cases? A. I have recently7 seen a report 
in regard to a Chicago institution, where they7 have tabulated 
their foundling cases by7 themselves. 
Q. Did that report appear to be a report of the worst cases, 
or -was it — 
Gov. Butler. I object to the contents of that report. They 
have been examining that institution, and investigating things 
there. 
Mr. Brown. I know they have. I shall not press it. What 
I had in mind I will put in in another way. 2184 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
Apr. 
The Witness. That, is the only institution I have ever seen 
reported in in that way. 
Q. Have you ever examined the reports of the St. Mary’s 
institution here in Boston, in charge of the Sisters of Charity? 
A. I have never seen one of their reports. 
Q. Have you ever examined the reports of the institution 
known as the Gray Nuns, in Montreal? A. I have never seen 
one of them. 
Q. Have you ever examined the reports of any institution in 
this country, kept by the Sisters of Chantey ; that is, a foundling 
institution, I mean ? A. I was physician to a House of Provi- 
dence, in Detroit, part of the time. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t hear you. 
The Witness. There was a House of Providence, in Detroit, 
where I used to attend cases of labor occasionally. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That was a lying-in house? A. But 
I never had an}7 statistics from it. They had children there at 
that time. 
Q. Foundling children? A. Yes; so I was informed. 
Q. And it was a lying-in ? A. Yes ; but I never got any 
statistics from it. 
Q. Now, let me ask you this question : In these institutions 
where there have been foundling children, did the children and 
their diseases present the same phases which you saw at Tewks- 
bury ? 
Gov. Butler. I object. He has not been in any such insti- 
tution where he had charge. 
The Witness. I had charge of that same kind of cases in a 
county institution at Detroit. They had the same class of 
cases, and I could recall a number of instances, when I first 
went to Tewksbury—I did recall a number of similar cases 
that I had in Detroit; but there was no tabulated statement 
made of them to get the rate of mortality. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t ask you in regard to that. 
Gov. Butler. There is not at Tewksbury. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t care for any tabulated results. 
Gov. Butler. You have been going upon the ground, and so 
has the Doctor, that there was a tabulated rate of mortality at 
Tewksbury of the foundlings. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t so understand it. 
Gov. Butler. There never has been; therefore it don’t 
shock anybody — these tables, because there are no tables. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. BOO, 
2185 
The Witness. Infants under one year of age not nursed 
were tabulated. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, the}’ are tabulated. 
Mr. Brown. What I wanted to ask was this — 
Gov. Butler. And this would strike everybody; if they 
were dying at that rate, why on earth weren’t they nursed? 
The Witness. They are, now. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Where are they nursed, now? A. 
Arangements were finally made by which they could be put out 
into families and be wet-nursed ,so I understand. 
Gov. Butler. You are telling what you don’t know, sir. 
Q. Now, will you come back to my question, whether in 
these institutions where you have attended as a physicician upon 
foundling children you have observed the same phases of dis- 
ease which you saw at Tewksbury? 
Gov. Butler. I object to that question, for the reason that 
it was probably unintentionally wrong. He never attended but 
one, and that only for a short time; therefore when you say 
these institutions you mislead him. 
Mr. Brown. No ; I may be misled myself. I understood 
him to say that he attended in the House of Providence in De- 
troit, and that he also attended in the county hospital. Now, 
am I right, Doctor? 
The Witness. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Then I was right, and you were wrong. 
Gov. Butler. But the difficulty was that he was told by Dr. 
Sargent in Providence. 
The Witness. You asked me if I attended a place where 
there were such cases. At the House of Providence I never 
saw — I never derived any experience in regard to that class of 
cases. 
Q. Were you the physician who attended any of those cases 
in that House of Providence? A. I was substitute physician 
when I went there ; consequently, I saw such cases. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t care whether you were a substitute. 
Gov. Butler. If you will allow him to finish you will get it 
all. He said he was a substitute physician, and consequently 
didn’t have anything to do with them, I suppose. 
Mr. Brown. You supplied that. 
Gov. Butler. I want to get it. 
The Witness. My acquaintance there was so desultory in 2186 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
its character tliat I could not make definite observation ; but I 
did at the county institution. 
Q. Then, at the county institution, did you see among the 
foundling children the same phases of disease that you have 
since seen at Tewksbury? A. Among the infants not nursed 
I saw the same phases of disease. 
Q. And have you seen the same phases of disease elsewhere 
among infants not nursed? A. Out of the institution I have 
seen the same, but less marked in character. 1 think that the 
fact of being in an institution, surrounded by other babies, is an 
unfortunate circumstance. 
Q. Why? A. On account of the influence; whether it is 
the air, or what it is, it is pretty hard to tell. It is the general 
experience of those who have the care of an institution. 
Q. Well, is there anything in the matter of quiet? A. 
Well, there are a good many little points that may have something 
to do with it. Lack of individual care of one baby by one 
mother has something to do with it. And a lack of that con- 
stant observation which is given by one woman to one babjq 
and the lack of affection which the woman has for the baby 
which she nurses, whether her own or somebody’s else. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That cannot operate where they 
don’t nurse them? A. I say if she nurses the baby it increases 
that affection. 
Q. By “ not nursed” I suppose you mean not wet nursed? 
When you say “not nursed ” in the tabulated statement you 
mean not wet nursed? A. Yes, sir. Fed on cow’s milk. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Anything else? A. When one 
baby dies then I have noticed a very marked change in the 
health of the others. 
Q. Why? A. When one babj' has the diarrhoea I have 
noticed a marked change in the stools of the other babies. 
Whether it is due to germs which are in the air or to the mere 
inhalation of an odor which is disagreeable to the child, it is 
hard to tell, without more knowledge than we have. Such, 
however, is undoubtedly the fact, that when a baby is sick it 
impairs the health of another, even though you separate the 
baby at once from the others. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think of anything more. 
Gov. Butler. I suppose that owing to some engagement of 
the Senate members of the committee, we shall uot sit on 
Thursday morning. 1883.] 
* HOUSE —No. 300. 
2187 
The Chairman. The Senate have an engagement on Thurs- 
day morning. 
Gov. Butler. I only wanted to have it understood so that 
there might be no trouble about bringing witnesses here only 
for to-morrow morning. 
Mr. Brown. To-day is Tuesday. 
Gov. Butler. You won’t want many witnesses to-morrow. 
I have got a great many things to ask the doctor about. I 
only brought this to the attention of the committee so that 
everybody might remember it and govern themselves accord- 
ingly. 
Adjourned to meet on Wednesday, June 13, at 9.30 a.m. 2188 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
FORTY-SEVENTH HEARING. 
Wednesday, June 13. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Mr. Brown. There are one or two questions that I wanted 
to ask Dr. Lathrop, and I will ask him before you proceed, 
Governor — something I omitted yesterday. 
Testimony of William II. Lathrop {resumed). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown, continued. 
Q. 1 meant to have asked you yesterday, but it escaped 1113" 
attention, in regard to a woman by the name of Barron, spoken 
of by Mr. Dudley ; will you state what the fact was with regard 
to her case? A. She was a demented woman. 
Gov. Butler. Which woman was that ? 
Mr. Brown. The one locked up in a cell. 
Gov. Butler. You did ask him. 
Mr. Brown. I asked him about another case. 
The Witness. She was a demented woman, middle aged, who 
had very little intelligence, and scarcely ever said anything 
more than a meaningless ejaculation; was fifthy in her habits, 
and was kept in some place where she would be less offensive 
and annoying to other patients. 
Q. Is she living now? A. As far as I know. She left 
our institution in good health. 
Q. Where did she go to? A. I don’t recall; I think to 
one of the other hospitals. 
Q. Well, from the time when Mr. Dudley came to the in- 
stitution up to the time when this woman left the institution, 
was there any marked change in her physical or mental condi- 
tion? A. I don’t think there was any more than those ups 
and downs of health which occur among ordinary people. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2189 
Q. Was she ever so thin as to he a mere skeleton? A. I 
don’t think she ever was. 
Q. Was she always in good llesh? A. As I recollect her. 
Q. What was the habit in regard to the treatment of her 
room? How often was she cared for? A. That would be 
regulated entirely by its condition and her condition. It was 
expected that the attendants would keep a person free from 
odor and clean. That was the attendants’ business. 
Q. And you never had any reason to believe that that was 
not attended to, did you? A. I don’t remember it was ever 
neglected in that case. 
Q. Now, another question which I forgot yesterday, in re- 
gard to the lying-in hospital, in regard to mortality. Was there 
excessive mortality in the lying-in hospital during the period 
3’ou were there? A. We never had any epidemic of puerperal 
fever. There have been occasional instances in the last three 
years. We have had a less mortality than the Boston lying-in 
hospital in proportion to the number of patients ; and the deaths 
have been distributed through the year in such a way as to 
indicate no general contagion of one form or another. 
Q. Was Dr. Nellie Marsh there at the institution at any 
time since 3rou came there as pli3Tsician? A. She terminated 
her connection as physician in 1876. 
Q. Do 3rou remember what part of the year 1876? A. I 
have not looked it up, but I think it was in the middle of the 
3-ear, about Jul3r. I am quite sure it was about that time. 
Q. Was she an efficient person in her position? A. I 
think she was. 
Q. Did yon ever have occasion, as physician in charge of 
the institution, to receive any complaint concerning her treat- 
ment of the inmates? A. I never did. 
Gov. Butler. Did she leave before he came there ? 
Mr. Brown. No. She left in 1876 ; he came in 1875. 
The Witness. Juty, after the investigation, she left. 
Q. Did 3-ou read the testimony of Mark Heathcote; I be- 
lieve it was in regard to a baby that he took to Tewksbury from 
Salem? A. I did. 
Q. Have 3rou any knowledge in regard to amr such thing as 
he describes having taken place with that baby, —that a bar of 
hard soap was put into its mouth? A. I cannot understand — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; you are not asked what you don’t 2190 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
understand, because that would take a great while. Answer 
the question, if you know. 
The Witness. I did not. 
Gov. Butler. Then say so. 
Q. You never heard of any such thing? A. No, sir; I 
never did. 
Q. Do 3Tou know whether it has been customary to prepare 
a sort of a sop in a cloth there for babies in that institution ; if 
so, what was it? A. We have never approved of anything of 
that kind, but sometimes they used them. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What? A. A little sugar in a 
cloth put into a baby’s mouth. 
Q. Oh, yes; a sugar teat? A. Yes, sir. We have never 
approved of that sort of thing ; if it has ever been used, it has 
been used very rarefy. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) But you never recommended a bar 
of hard soap, that you know of? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. We don’t claim he did. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
The Chairman. Governor, before you go on, I want to ask 
one question. I was not here all through the session yester- 
day. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) One of the witnesses, I think it 
was Mr. Dudley, testified that when he went into the insane 
department he found the patients bare-footed, without shoes or 
stockings. Did }-ou hear anything about that? A. If he 
found patients in that condition, it might have been due to the 
fact that their attendants, in their going out, didn’t take so 
much notice of the patients as they should have done. 
Q. On page 90, this question is asked : “ What season of 
the year was this ? ” And the answer is: “This was in July. 
The most of them without shoes and stockings.” A. It was 
the custom always to keep the shoes and stockings on them, but 
a great man}' of the patients liked to pull them off. 
Gov. Butler. You were asked not what the custom, was, 
but whether }rou knew a given fact. 
The Witness. I have no reason to think there was a in- 
difference that time from any other time. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) You were in charge? A. I was. 
Q. Do you remember the case of a man coming there with 
delirium^tremens, and dying in a few days? A. I do; yes, 
sir.,7r I sawjthat case. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2191 
Q. What was that case ? A. I don’t know but you went 
into it 3’esterday. 
Mr. Brown. I did not. 
The Witness. We had at that time some cells which were 
very soon afterwards removed, which we used for cases of that 
kind, — when I went there, and a short time after I was there. 
They were objectionable, because they were removed from the 
hospital and the nurses. But we used them for ver3r violent 
cases of delirium tremens. That case was seen by me property, 
as I have every reason to know. Of course, the night-watch- 
man, not being awake, could not be likely to know what was 
going on in the daytime. 
Q. Now, about the cholera therein 1875, Doctor? A. I 
went there in October, 1875. There was no cholera there when 
I was there. 
Q. Ever been cholera there since 37ou have been there? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. I think it was Eva Bowen who testified that fifteen died 
there in a week while she was there. A. She went awa37 just 
about the time I went there. 
The Chairman. That is all, Governor. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Now, Doctor, we had better find out exactly what your 
rights or what your duties were there, if I can find the statute 
here. A. The statutes have been changed several times dur- 
ing the time I have been there. 
Gov. Butler. There is one statute that has not, however. 
Mr. Brown. Are you looking for the Public Statutes. 
Gov. Butler. I would like the Public Statutes if I can find 
them. 
Q. What salary were you receiving? Where was the last 
place you were at before you came to Tewksbury? A. I was 
at the county almshouse and insane asylum in the vicinity of 
Detroit. 
Q. How long had you been there ? A. Between two and 
three years. 
Q. What salary were you receiving? A. I received $900 ; 
but I was not obliged to live there. 
Q. You were not obliged to live there? A. No, sir; l had 
the privilege of private practice. 
Q. That is why you worked so cheap? A. I was only 2192 
CttAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
obliged to go there two or three hours a da}r; the rest of my 
time was at my own disposal. 
Q. What salar}r did you get when you came to Tewksbury? 
A. 11,500. 
Q. Has that ever been increased ? A. Never been changed. 
Q. And your living at Tewksbury ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Horse kept for you ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never? A. Never. 
Q. Do you use a horse ? A. I never use one except when 
I hire one, and on Sundays to go to church 1 used the institu- 
tion horse ; that is all — occasionally. 
Q. Had any private practice while at the institution? A. 
I have had a little ; not much. 
Q. Do all that you had to do? A. What did you say, sir? 
Q. Do all that you had to do ? A. Did I do all that I was 
asked to do by the people in the vicinity ? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. Whom did you turn away? A. Well, I told people 
that I could not attend cases. There was a case of fever. 
Q. Well, who? Let us see who you told. Instead of say- 
ing ‘‘people” say somebod}'. A. Yes, sir. I don’t remem- 
ber the name of the girl; she was a relative of the Chandler 
family. Dr. Bartlett of Lowell attended the case, I think. 
There was a case in the village that Dr. Irish attended. 
Q. I have no doubt there were plent}’ of doctors who 
attended cases. I want to know if 3’ou will swear that you 
told them you would not come when they wanted you ; — unless 
they died on your hands. They didn’t die on }rour hands, be- 
cause you didn’t do anything for them. A. I don’t remember 
the name of that girl. It is several years since I have had any 
practice to amount to anything, in the vicinity of the institu- 
tion. 
Q. Did you ever make application to the institution for a 
horse? A. 1 asked the trustees for the privilege of keeping 
a horse at the institution. 
Q. Was that granted or refused? A. It was refused. 
Q. Hadn’t you had one before? A. I had not. 
Q. Very well. Now, Doctor, there was an investigation in 
187G, and the committee reported that they didn’t think the 
resident physician had sullicient power ; and 30U so testified 
before the committee, didn’t you? A. I don’t remember that 
part of it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2193 
Q. Well, you were before the committee ; were you? A. I 
was. I have no recollection of there being much testimony. I 
don’t remember what I was there for. 
Q. You were before them? A. I think I was. I would 
not be sure about that. 
Q. I observe you have used the words “ I don’t remember” 
quite a number of times. Haven’t you good memory enough to 
know whether you were before the board of investigation ? A. 
I was present at the hearing, and I believe I testified. 
Q. Don’t you know whether you did or not? A. I don’t 
remember any of the peculiarities of the testimony, or anything 
that I said. 
Q. Leave out the peculiarities. Don’t you remember whether 
you testified? A. If any one should tell me that I did, I should 
not be able to den}' it. 
Q. Now, Doctor, after you were there, and after the testi- 
mony was given, was not this statute passed? [Reading.] 
„ “ The ti-ustees shall annually elect a resident physician, competent 
to tjike charge of insane inmates, and, subject to the approval of the 
governor and council, fix his compensation, and such physician shall 
have the right to reside with his family at the almshouse.” 
“ The resident physician shall immediately appoint suitable per- 
sons to be his assistants, &c.” 
“ The resident physician shall have entire charge of and be respon- 
sible for the medical treatment of the inmates of the hospital at the 
almshouse; shall appoint and remove the nurses of the hospital, and 
shall fix their several salaries, subject to the approval of the in- 
spectors; shall regulate and control the dietary of the hospital and 
shall supervise the preparation of the food for this department; and 
shall from time to time make requisitions upon the superintendent 
for such food, medicines, and necessaries (other than the ordinary 
almshouse supplies) as in his judgment the requirements of a well- 
ordered hospital demand.” 
Now, that was your duty. Did you ever make such a requisi- 
tion while you were there ? A. Once a week. 
Q. What? A. Once a week. 
Q. Made three. In writing? A. Once a week. 
Q. Once a week? A. That was my custom ; yes, sir. I 
very seldom omitted. 
Q. You were accustomed to make once a week a requisition. 
Were they always filled? A. The requisitions for medicines 
were always filled; those for food were not always filled. 2194 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did 3 011 make any complaint*to the trustees that your 
requisitions for food were not filled? A. When I made com- 
plaint I made complaint first to the superintendent. 
Q. Why complain to him when you made the requisition 
upon him? You hadn’t anything to do in the way of complain- 
ing to him ; all you had to do was to make requisition for what 
you wanted? A. When those didn’t come, by repeating my 
request he usually furnished what I wanted. 
Q. If they didn’t come, by repeating your request he usually 
furnished what you wanted. Did you ever make complaint to 
the trustees that your requisitions were not filled? A. We 
often discussed the matters of the hospital, but 1 don’t remember 
any formal complaint. 
Q. Whether you discussed them, I have not asked. A. I 
don’t remember any such complaint. 
Q. Very well. Then if there was not sufficient nursing, that is 
your fault, because you could have them on requisition ; the law 
had put that into your hand. If there was not sufficient food, 
you could have had it, because the law puts that into your hand. 
And if the food was not properly cooked, you could have had it; 
the law put that into your hand. If there were not sufficient 
instruments for such a hospital, you could have had it, for the 
law put that into your hand. Nowr, you come here and say that 
there was not an instrument there, and so you Sent to the steam 
engineer’s department for a file and a screw-driver. Why didn’t 
you make a requisition for them, if you knew the}" were not 
there, and are not there even to this day? A. What are not 
there, sir? 
Q. Those instruments you wanted. A. The instruments 
which I thought were indispensable were not there. 
Q. I know; this instrument you undertook to substitute 
something for is there. It was made by the trustees — it was 
ordered by the trustees soon after this delivery, was it not? 
A. It was on my requisition. 
Q. In writing? Was it not upon the complaint of Dr. 
West? A. I don’t think Dr. West had anything to do with it. 
Q. Didn’t he state the case? A. I don’t think he did. I 
don’t remember that he had anything to do with it. 
Q. I know — a bad memory? A. I know I asked them for 
that instrument and selected it myself. 
Q. Did you solicit any other instrument? A. I selected 
the instrument. 1883.] 
HOUSP:—No. 300. 
2195 
Q. I know. Did you make requisition for any other instru- 
ment? A. I have made requisitions for instruments very of- 
ten. 
Q. Have they ever been filled? A. They have, sir. 
Q. Well, then, as all the requisitions that you have made 
have always been filled, for instruments, why did you come in 
here with a long, prepared list of those that ought to be there, 
in a well-ordered hospical, and are not there? A. I didn’t 
say that they ought to be there. 
Q. What did you mean when you handed me that list yes- 
terday? A. I was asked what instruments, if we could have 
everything we wanted without regard to the economies of the 
place. 
Q. No, sir; I didn’t hear any such question as that. A. 
That is what I understood. 
Q. Did you prepare that list of instruments before you came 
here? A. I did. 
Q. Had you been asked to do so before ? A. I had. 
Q. When ; last Sunday? A. Not Sunday; no, sir. . 
Q. When was it? A. I presume it was a week before, or 
some such time. 
Q. A week before? Before when? A. Before yesterday. 
Q. Didn’t you have a conversation the day before with Mr. 
Brown upon the subject? A. Of the instruments? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. I don’t remember that I did ; no, sir. 
Q. Can 3rou say 3*011 didn’t? A. I don’t think I saw him 
at all the da3r before. 
Q. Did you see him within two da3’s before? A. I think 
it was several days before. I know — I could recall it after a 
a little while. 
Q. I wish you would try to recollect. I will give 3Tou all the 
time you want. Whether you saw him before last Sunday? A. 
I am very sure I didn’t see him last Sunday. 
Q. Entirety sure? A. I haven’t the faintest recollection of 
it. 
Q. Well, now, Doctor, then if this whole amount of instru- 
ments would not have come, if 3Tou had had eveiything, to only 
$300, it probabl3r would not have bankrupted the State ; and if 
there are an3r instruments not there, you are responsible for 
their not being there, are 3'ou not? A. I am. 
Q. Ver3T well; that leaves that. Now, before I go to the 
general matters of the testimony you have given, I want to ask 2196 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
3’ou some questions about another matter. You know Mr. 
Bean, don’t you? A. Ido. 
Q. How long lias he been there? A. I don’t remember 
the date. 
Q. He is a barber by trade, isn’t he ? A. I think he told 
me he had been engaged in that business. He had been an at- 
tendant at the Taunton hospital. 
Q. I am not upon the question of where he had been an at- 
tendant. Answer my question and you will get along a great dea. 
easier, and we shall get along a great deal faster, if you answer 
what you are asked ; was he a barber by trade, as }-ou under- 
stood? A. I have been informed that he had been in that 
business. 
Q. And he did eut the hair off of the incurable insane pa- 
tients, didn’t he? A. I never saw him do it. I suppose if it 
needed to be done in his department he did it. 
Q. Had he charge of them? A. He had ; some of them. 
Q. Don’t you know? On your oath don’t you know that he 
cut the hair off of the incurable female insane? A. Of course 
he did. It was his duty to do so. 
Q. All of them? A. Not all of them. 
Q. All that had long hair? A. It would depend on the 
case. 
Q. Now, don’t you know that he made this up into frizzettes 
and things for sale? A. I never heard of such a thing, sir. 
Q. You never heard ? A. No, sir ; I never did. I never 
heard the accusation made. 
Q. Didn’t he take them to Lowell for sale ? A. I never 
heard of such a thing. 
Q. Well, pretty much all of them cut off—the hair? A. 
I don’t know how many. I never counted them. 
Q. Perhaps I could find out. You never counted them. 
Then he cut off what he pleased, because you didn’t give any 
directions? A. It was no part of my dut}\ 
Q. Pardon me. Here was an insane woman. The ques- 
tion whether she should lose the ornament of her sex from her 
head was a matter which would concern everybody, was it not? 
A. The ordinary care of the cases, cleanliness and such mat- 
ters, is hardly a part of the medical care. 
Q. The ordinary part of cleanliness is not a part of the 
medical care. Very good ; I am content to take it at that. If 
the ordinary cleanliness of your insane patients is not medical 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2197 
care,— there is the statute that gives you the entire charge of the 
hospital department,— whose care was it? A. He is under the 
superintendent’s department. 
Q. Was he in the superintendent’s department? A. Yes, 
sir. He is appointed by the superintendent. 
Q. How was that? Was he a nurse there ? A. We didn’t 
consider him a nurse. 
Q. What did you consider him ? A. An attendant at the 
insane asylum. 
Q. Did he have charge of the nursing at all? A. No, sir. 
Q. He had charge of the patients ? A. When they were 
well. When they were sick they* were transferred to the hospi- 
tal department. 
Q. But the insane department is properly a hospital de- 
partment, is it not ? A. We didn’t consider it so at Tewks- 
bury. 
Q. Didn’t consider the insane department a part of the hos- 
pital department? A. We separated the two departments. 
Q. Then 3*011 had no charge of the insane as physician? A. 
I had charge of the whole institution as physician. 
Q. As a physician you had no charge of the insane except 
when they might be sick, as yTou had charge of the able-bodied 
paupers when they* came to be sick; is that it ? A. As 
plrysician it was my duty to study* their mental peculiarities, 
and to observe their health, and to observe them more than I 
would those that were not insane. 
Q. Now, do y*ou mean to tell me, Doctor, — for I want you 
to do it under full — that, as you understand it, 
you had no care of the cleanliness of the insane people that 
were not sick in the hospital? A. The wayr I understand it is 
this — 
Q. Do you understand that? Answer my* question. A. It 
is impossible to separate entirely, to draw a definite line be- 
tween the duties of the superintendent and the physician. 
Q. Pardon me; the statute does draw very distinctly 
the line. In the first place, it requires that you shall be com- 
petent to take charge of insane people, and then it makes 
responsible for all their treatment, doesn’t it? A. The insane 
were not under treatment for mental disease ; they were in- 
curables. 
Q. While there is life there is hope, I hope. A. We kept 
them well. 2198 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Then there was no occasion for cutting their hair, was 
there? A. There is, for comfort and cleanliness. In patients 
that are unable to care for their own hair, and have not suffi- 
cient regard for their habits to keep themselves clean and com- 
fortable, it is a great deal better to cut the hair off. 
Q. Precisely. Who judges of that, if the physician don’t? 
A. That part belongs to the care of the patients ; I have never 
interfered with it. 
Q. I know you haven’t interfered, and one of my complaints 
is that nobody did so. Whose business was it to do it? A. I 
should say that belonged to the ordinary care of the insane 
insane. It belonged to the superintendent. 
Q. Who was responsible for the propriety of the ordinary 
care of the insane inmates? A. I should say that belonged 
to the superintendent’s department. 
Q. Then you were not responsible for the ordinary care of 
the insane? Unless the}’ are sick 3’ou don’t consider yourself 
responsible, and, of course, don’t do an}Ttliing about it. A. 
The same as the ordinary inmates, I think; the hygiene and 
general condition of the institution. 
Q. The hygiene and general condition. Those are the words. 
Did you, or did you not, consider yourself, — and I don’t care 
a copper which way 3'ou put it, — did you, or did you not, con- 
sider yourself responsible for the treatment, the physical and 
mental condition of the insane persons in that establishment? 
If }rou sa}’ 3’ou did not, I am content; if 3’ou say 37ou did, I 
want to ask something else. A. It is not a question that can 
be answered }’es or no. I was, to some extent, responsible, and 
the superintendent was, to some extent, responsible. 
Q. Let us see about this divided responsibility ; you can 
sa}7 yes or no when I ask 37ou whether you consider yourself 
responsible. Won’t 3’ou read that question, Mr. Reporter? 
[The reporter read the previous question.] 
Gov. Butler. What }7ou yourself consider. 
The Witness. When 3’ou use the word I’esponsible — 
Gov. Butler. Ever}rbody knows what that means, I sup- 
pose. 
The Witness. Not absolutel}7 responsible ; but I consider it 
ni}7 dut}7 — 
Q. Well, sir, do 3Tou, or do }7ou not, consider 3Tourself re- 
sponsible ? Answer that one way or the other. A. I have 
already answered it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2199 
Q. No, sir ; }tou have not. I want an answer. A. I con- 
sidered that I had responsibility, of course. 
Q. You said you had responsibility, but the difficulty is we 
don’t know what responsibilit}7. Answer my question — A. 
I have said — 
Q. Did you, or did you not, consider yourself responsible for 
the treatment — the physical and the mental condition — of the 
insane patients in that establishment? A. I should answer it 
the same as I did before. 
Q. I don’t care about }7our before; answer it now; yes or 
no. 
Mr. Bkown He has said he cannot answer it yes or no. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me; he can answer it yes or no. 
It is what he, in his own mind, considers. 
The Witness. That is just what I answered,— that the respon- 
sibilit\T of the care of the insane wras for their ordinary care, to 
supply the ordinary materials for their comfort and pleasure. 
Q. Cleanliness? A. Their cleanliness, their food,—their 
ordinary food, and such things as are ordinarily furnished, be- 
longed to the superintendent; he had all the funds of the insti- 
tution at his disposal, and he could give, or refrain from giving, 
according to his judgment. 
Q. If anybody was responsible you were not? A. I was 
responsible for the careful supervision of the insane, noting their 
peculiarities, and looking after their health. 
Q. He was responsible, because he carried all the funds for 
that purpose. Let us see if he did. I thought }tou had them ? 
A. I had no funds. 
Q. Pardon me. Let us see. [Reading.] “ He shall be re- 
sponsible for the medical treatment of the inmates of the hos- 
pital at the almshouse ; shall appoint and remove the nurses of 
the hospital, and shall fix their several salaries, subject to the 
approval of the inspectors; shall regulate and control the 
dietary of the hospital, and shall supervise the preparation of 
the food for this department; and shall from time to time 
make requisitions upon the superintendent for such food, 
medicines and necessaries (other than the ordinary almshouse 
supplies) as in his judgment the requirements of a w7ell-or- 
dered hospital demand.” Therefore, you had command of 
the whole institution for the purposes of the hospital? A. A 
certain appropriation was given, and the superintendent had 
a certain portion of it, which he, in his judgment, thought 2200 
CIIAlilTABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
could be appropriated for hospital and asylum uses, and keep 
within the limits of his appropriation. 
Q. But you had nothing to do with the limits of the appro- 
priation at all. You could make requisitions, and if he could 
not fill them, that was between him and somebody else. Now, 
then, you don’t know whether these peoples’ hair — because it 
was not your business to know — was cut off or not? A. I 
know that some of them had their hair cut. 
Q. And you don’t know how many ? A. T never did. 
Q. Never counted them? A. Never did. 
Mr. Brown. Does the statute require him to count them? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think that question is worth while 
answering. If a man is put there, responsible for the treatment 
of the patients, I suppose he is to find how many have their 
hair cut off, and to know whether it is necessary that A or 
B should be stripped of her hair to be sold for a wig for some- 
body, or not. 
Mr. Brown. If you will just let me know whose signature is 
attached to that letter, I will show that it is false. 
Gov. Butler. How do you know it is a letter? 
Mr. Brown. I don’t. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; why call it so? 
Mr. Brown. Because I had my impression about it. 
Gov. Butler. Where did you get it? 
The Chairman. Let us confine ourselves to the examination 
of the witness. 
Gov. Butler. I will, until a man undertakes to talk to me 
about my brief. I have no doubt somebody from Tewksbury 
would be found to swear the legs off of a brass pot. But I can 
show how this thing is, all in good time. 
Q. Mrs. Bean was his wife, wasn’t she? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know whether the husband used to cany break- 
fast up to Mrs. Bean? Was she a nurse or an attendant? 
A. She was classed as an attendant upon the insane. 
Q. Did the insane have any nurses? A. When they were 
sick they went to the hospital, and were there treated by the 
hospital nurses. 
Q. Leave out that when they were sick they were sent to 
the hospital. Did the insane have any nurses? A. No per- 
sons in the asylum building were classed as nurses. 
Q. What do you mean by as}dum ? Now, stick to the hos- 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2201 
pital, the insane hospital. A. I mean the building where the 
healthy insane are kept. 
Q. Well, all the insane were kept in one place until they got 
sick, and when sick they went to the hospital to be treated for 
other diseases than insanity. They were not sent to the hospi- 
tal to be treated for insanity alone, I take it; but it must be for 
some other disease, as fever? A. Certainly, when their phy- 
sical health was impaired; not always any special disease; 
sometimes want of appetite. 
Q. Well, that may he a disease, or the effect of a disease? 
A. It is due to some disease. 
Q. Now, then, all the insane were kept in one building, ex- 
cept when they were sent to the hospital for some other kind of 
disease, and then they were sent to the general hospital. Now, 
when in the insane hospital, was there a nurse there? Answer 
that question, and nothing else. A. All the paid help there 
were called supervisors or attendants. 
Q. I don’t care what they were called. Calling a cow’s tail 
a leg don’t make it a leg. This is it: Were there any nurses 
there — persons that did nursing? A. Occasionally a person 
would be sick there ; almost always there is — 
Q. Now,- how often in that department, in that insane hos- 
pital—how often did you visit it, on your oath? A. I visited 
it generally every day. 
Q. Generally every day. Were there not weeks together 
when you were not there? A I don’t believe that ever oc- 
curred, unless some physician attended, or I was away from 
town. 
Q. You had nothing to do with that part of it —the well in- 
sane— why should some other physician attend to it? A. Why 
should any physician visit the asylum? 
Q. Not by a great deal! I am not talking about the asy- 
lum ; I am talking about the hospital for the insane. If you 
had nothing to do with the hospital and the well insane, and 
were not responsible, it was a matter for the supervisors and the 
superintendent. Why should any other physician visit it any 
more than you? A. I considered it a part of m3' duty to look 
after the insane, and see that the}' were properl}' cared for. 
Q. But I understood just now that it was not? A, I said 
I was responsible. 
Q. For what? A. For the medical supervision. 2202 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr, 
Q. Well, these people don’t want any medicine? A. That 
includes something more than medicine. 
Q. Then 3011 were responsible for the condition of filth, 
were you not? I am content to take it that way if you want it 
so? A. I always noted those cases and told the attendants. 
Q. Now, did }Tou ever appoint a nurse there in your life, 
anywhere in that establishment; if so, whom? A. 1 followed 
the law. 
Q. I don’t ask whether yrou followed the law or did not; I 
am asking the fact. Did you ever appoint a nurse, and who 
was it? A. After the law of 1879 — 
Q. I don’t care whether the law or the gospel had to do 
with it. Answer my question, my man. Did you ever appoint 
a nurse, and who was he or she? A. I appointed all of them 
when the law was such — 
Q. Pardon me; tell me one that you appointed? A. I 
appointed Miss McKinnon, who has just resigned. 
Q. When was that? A. August, 1876. 
Q. You appointed Miss McKinnon, did you? A. I did. 
Q. Tell me another. She has got an appointment under 
your hand? A. She received it then under my hand. 
Q. Tell me another. A. 1 appointed them all right along. 
Q. Tell me another person that has got an appointment 
under your hand? A. Until 1879, when the appointment was 
changed — between 1876 and 1879 ; after that the appointment 
was changed ; the law changed it and gave it to the superin- 
tendent. 
Q. Did it; in 1879? A. Yes, sir; the law establishing 
the board of health, lunacy7 and charity. 
Q. Gave it to the superintendent, did it? A. Yes, sir; 
that is the way7 I have always considered it. Of course I am 
not a lawyer. 
Q. Y"ou are now7 say ing you are not a lawyer, and yet you 
say you always followed the law. Don’t you know it has never 
been changed and that it is the law now? A. It was changed 
when that book [the Public Statutes] was published. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; this book is simply a compila- 
tion of the laws. The act establishing the board of health, 
lunacy and charity has nothing to do with it; not at all. 
The Witness. [Referring to the Blue Book of 1879.] Will 
y7ou allow me, sir? 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. Because — don’t yrou see here?—- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2203 
you quit doing it in 1879. The law was explicit. This is a 
revision of the statute of 1879. [The Public Statutes.] This 
was a power the law gave you, by the statute of 1879. 
Not the statute in regard to the board of health, lunacy 
and charity, but the statute in regard to the Tewksbury alms- 
house. It provides that the resident physician shall have entire 
charge and shall appoint or remove nurses and shall fix their 
salaries. That has been the law since 1879. 
The Witness. If you will allow me, it says here [the Blue 
Book of 1879] : “ All acts and parts of acts inconsistent here- 
with are hereby repealed.” Then above it says : — 
“ The superintendents and physicians of all the State institutions 
herein named, except the lunatic hospitals, shall be elected annually 
and their compensation fixed by the board of trustees having charge 
of each institution respectively, said compensation having first been 
approved by the governor and council; and the other officers shall 
be hereafter appointed and their compensation fixed by the superin- 
tendents, with the approval of the trustees.” 
That is the law under which I acted. 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly that is the law about the salaries 
and the other matter. Now, let us see. In 1876 the law stood 
in precisely the same way, and it is so put in here ; so it was 
not repealed. 
Q. Was that law considered repealed up at Tewksbury? 
Did you commence to act upon that idea? A. “Other 
officers ” — 
Q. Leave out other officers ; stick to the nurses, my man? 
A. That is what I understood, that other “ officers ” included 
nurses. 
Q. You understood that a nurse was an officer, so you didn’t 
appoint any nurses? A. I did understand that was what was 
meant. 
Q. And, therefore, since 1879 y ou have never appointed a 
nurse? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir; until since this book [Public 
Statutes] has been issued. 
Q. Well, who have you appointed since this book has been 
issued ? A. I have appointed those who are there now on the 
men’s side and one on the women’s side. 
Q, One on the men’s side ? A, Three on the men’s side, 2204 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr„ 
Smith lias been there a good while. Their names are Collins,, 
Howard, Babcock — 
Q. Smith didn’t need any appointment. Whom else have 
you appointed? A. Collins, Howard, Babcock and Miss Lane. 
Q. Those are the ones that are there now. What Howard 
is this; French Joe? A. No, sir; his name is — 
Q. When were they appointed? A. They have been ap- 
pointed this summer. 
Q. Within how long or short a time? A. Well, within a 
month. 
Q. Oh, yes ; you appointed them within a month. And all 
those that 3-011 talk about you have appointed within a month? 
A. I have appointed those four within a month. 
Q. Those have all of them been appointed within a month? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then, from 1879 until within a month 3*011 have not ap- 
pointed any nurses? A. No, sir; I didn’t know that I could. 
Q. Did 3*ou ask anybody? A. No, sir; I didn’t know 
there was any law passed. 
Q. Well, but there was a law which put it directly into your 
hands? A. But that law I understood to be repealed by the 
statute of 1879. 
Q. Who told you so? A. It was under discussion in the 
institution with the trustees. 
Q. What trustees? A. Our own board of trustees. 
Q. What? A. Our board of trustees. 
Q. And the3- insisted that the superintendent should have 
the appointment of all the nurses, did the3T? A. They con- 
strued the law in that wa3r. 
Q. And they didn’t allow 3*011 to appoint them? A. It 
was decided in that way and I followed the law. 
Q. Now, were not these called supervisors and attendants, 
when they were appointed, expressly to avoid the law — that is, 
in the insane hospital — so as to take the appointment out of 
your hands? A. I never understood it in that light. 
Q. Well, all of them were taken out of 3*0111* hands, and 
they were all attendants and supervisors? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that you didn’t have an3* nurses in the —? A. In 
the asylum. 
Q. In the insane hospital. A. We call it asylum ; that is 
the technical name for it, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2205 
Q. Why say asylum? A. That is the word we use to 
distinguish it from the general hospital department. 
Q. An insane asylum. It is an insane hospital, I suppose, 
but not so large as the Worcester insane asylum or the insane 
hospital at Danvers ? A. There was a distinction made in the 
naming of these buildings, that the asylum for chronic insane 
at Worcester and the one at Tewksbuiy should mean a place 
for incurables; while the word hospital should be applied to the 
institutions for curable cases. It is merely a fanciful distinc- 
tion. 
Q. Then you never had a curable case of insanity in Tewks- 
bury? A. The cases were all supposed to be — 
Q. Pardon me. Did }tou ever have a curable case at Tewks- 
bury? A. I don’t think any case is absolutely hopeless. 
Q. Then they all ought to be in the hospital if the}" are not 
hopeless? A. It is a question of judgment whether they are 
likely to get well. 
Q. And this Mrs. Bean and this Mr. Bean were some of the 
attendants, were they? A. Yes, sir; he was called super- 
visor. 
Q. Well, we will go on. Did you ever know whether this 
Mrs. Bean had her food carried to her in bed when she was 
well? A. I never did, sir. 
Q. Did you ever know that Capt. Marsh had refused to pay 
heron account of neglectfulness? A. No, sir ; I never heard 
of that. 
Q. Never heard of that? A- No, sir. 
Q. Did she ever complain to her husband of the inmates’ 
insolence to her? A. Well, if she complained to her husband, 
I don’t know. 
Q. And then he came to you ? A. I don’t recall any such 
case, sir. 
Q. Now, did Capt. Marsh ever till a requisition for you for 
any things but medicines; if so, tell me what? A. The 
requisitions which I have been in the habit of sending in once a 
week included articles such as flaxseed for poultices — 
Q. Such as what? A. Flaxseed meal for poultices, and 
different dietary articles for the children ; and I remember ejm 
shades, for instance. That is a small item, but I recollect it. 
Gov. Butler. I am glad to see your memory so accurate 
about little things that you want to speak about. 2206 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. Similar things of that kind ; little appliances 
that we needed — trusses. 
Q. Something that was in the nature of medical supplies ? 
A. Medical supplies ; yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever make a requisition in your life, except for 
medical supplies ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What was it? A. I made requisition for a new build- 
ing for the women’s hospital. 
Q. Did you make requisition on the superintendent for that? 
A. I made that recommendation to the trustees. 
Q. Why do you attempt to evade and dodge, sir? A. I 
do not attempt to evade. 
Q. You know what I mean when I ask you if you have made 
a requisition on the superintendent; and then you tell me that 
you made a recommendation to the trustees for a new hospital 
building? A. Well, I thought that — 
Q. I ask you again did you ever make a requisition upon 
the superintendent for anything but medical supplies — medical 
or surgical supplies? A. I made requisition for rocking- 
chairs. 
Q. Did you get them ? A. I did get some. 
Q. Got one? A. Got half a dozen. 
Q. Got what? A. Half a dozen chairs. 
Q. Anything else? A. I remember asking him once for — 
Q. 1 don’t care what you asked him — A. This was a 
requisition put ou paper in writing. 
Q. Signed by you, I take it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, what else did you put on paper a requisition for? 
A. I was going to speak of sick-chairs, those which are used 
especially by the sick. 
Q. Sick-chairs. What else? A. Shirts, and such things 
as that. 
Q. Chess? A. Shirts — clothing. 
Q. Clothing, — shirts? A. And all such things as that, 
which come under the head of ordinary supplies. 
Q. The ordinary supplies you were not to make requisition 
for by statute ? A. But when they were not furnished in suf- 
ficient abundance I spoke about them. 
Q. How often did you do that? A. As circumstances 
called. 
Q. I know ; but how often did circumstances call? 1 want 
to see how often you did it? A. Well, the circumstances 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2207 
called me to make frequent calls to him for small things, from 
time to time. 
Q. Small things in clothing? A. Sometimes it would be 
clothing, furnishing; sometimes repairs, carpenter work, etc.; 
different things that would be needed in the hospital. 
Q. Frequently for clothing? A. I don’t remember how 
frequently, but quite frequently; clothing for children occasion- 
ally. I would be better informed about those things, and tell 
him about them. 
Q I don’t ask you about your information, sir? A. I can- 
not remember how often. 
Q. Bed clothing? A. They would come along from time 
to time in driblets, you might sajq these little requisitions and 
calls that I would make upon him. 
Q. Then, from time to time, }tou were short of clothing, and 
short of children’s clothing, and short of all these articles? A. 
The supplies would get low, and I would call his attention to it. 
Q. Whom did he give the supplies to — French Joe? A. 
Well, he had care of some of the supplies. Some would be 
■sent directly to the hospital, if they would be especially for the 
hospital. 
Q. I understand. I suppose medicines, and chairs, and 
such things as that. Now* did you make requisition upon Rust 
Brothers, in Boston, for drugs? A. I never specified the 
place at which they were to be bought. 
Q. Were they bought there? A. As a matter of fact, they 
were; yes, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, when did you first hear that Charles Marsh had 
a sore thumb, or a sore finger, so he could not keep his books? 
You. are the head physician there, and if he had a sore thumb, 
or a sore finger, he ought to have told you about it, if it dis- 
abled him from doing his duty ? A. I don’t think I ever 
treated him for it, but I remember of his speaking about it, per- 
haps a year ago. 
Q. A year ago ? A. I should think so. 
Q. A year ago. Haven’t you said you never heard of it 
until this investigation ? A. I could not have said that, sir; 
I could not have said that. I have heard him speak of having 
a finger that was impaired in its utility, as he supposed, by con- 
stant practice. 
Q. Did you, or any other physician, treat that finger? A. 
I don’t know of its being treated ; I didn’t treat it. 2208 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You didn’t treat it, and you are the head physician. 
Did he ever make any complaint to you about it? A. In the 
way I spoke of it. In writing at the table, he made the remark 
that his finger didn’t seem to have its accustomed strength. 
Q. Was that all that was said about it? A. That is all he 
said to me. 
Q. He didn’t ask any advice about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. And he was writing at the table at the time. Now, 
then, will you tell me this: Charles Marsh lived outside, 
didn’t he? A. He lived in Mr. Cocker’s house, just across the 
line of the farm ; yes, sir. 
Q. Well, that was outside ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you know of provisions being sent to his house? 
A. I have known of his sometimes taking a little from the 
table, and carrying it down himself. I don’t know of any- 
body’s ever taking any down there. 
Q. He took provisions from the table? A. I suppose 
something that he thought would be agreeable to his wife ; he 
would take it and carry it awa}’. 
Q. Butter? A. No, sir; I never saw him take anything 
only cooked articles which had been taken out for the family. 
Q. Were there any carried to his house or any other? A. 
I don’t know anything about any things that might have been 
taken down. I have seen things taken down, but I don’t know 
anything about what they were. 
Q. Who took them? A. I don’t know; the inmates, I 
suppose. 
Q. Frequently? A. Two or three times I have seen them 
carrying a package. 
Q. In what sort of a package? A. I don’t know any in- 
variable rule about it; perhaps a basket, as near as I can rec- 
ollect. 
Q. Didn’t you look to say what the}’were ? A. No, sir ; I 
never was near enough to notice. I have seen them going 
down the road, but I never was near enough to take especial 
notice about it. I have just seen them passing, going down 
the road to his house. Two or three times I have seen that. 
Q. Not more than two or three times? A. That is all, 
sir. 
Q. Well, they didn’t let you know much about what was 
going on. They kept it in the family, didn’t they ? A. I 
think they kept their own counsels as far as I was concerned. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2209 
Q. As fur as you were concerned. There was not the most 
free communication between you and them? A. Our rela- 
tions have always been cordial, but I could not say there was 
any intimacy in family matters between us. 
Q. Well, didn’t they keep their matters to themselves very 
much as far as }Tou were concerned? A. I should say the)r 
did, their family matters ; }Tes, sir. 
Q. And all matters? A. And matters of business too, to 
a great extent. 
Q. Did you have any key to the safe? A. No, sir; I 
never had any key to it. 
Q. Did the members of the family have keys to it? A. 
They did ; }’es, sir. 
Q. Who? A. Mr. Marsh, senior, — the Captain, as we 
called him, — Mr. Thomas Marsh, and Charles. 
Q. You never had one? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you discharge any nurses or attendants employed? 
A. When I understood that to be the law I carefully observed 
it in that respect. Yes, sir ; I did. 
Q. I now leave the law out, because you evidently didn’t 
know much about that. I only ask you the fact? A. 1 did, 
sir. 
Q. You discharged John Crockett, didn’t you? A. I told 
him I supposed — 
Q. Did you or did you not discharge him? Why can’t I 
get a direct answer to something? A. Practically, I did. 
Q. And you discharged Miss Clary about the same time? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And your accusation against them was fornication, was 
it not? A. I didn’t make an}T accusation. 
Q. Pardon me ; was that the cause in your own mind? A. 
It was improper intimacy. 
Gov. Butler. That is a euphemistic term. I used good 
Bible English. 
Q. Do you know anything about what was done with the 
babies after they were taken into the hospital, of your own 
knowledge? A. I have often been there and seen them 
taken in and bathed and clothed and put to bed. 
Q. Was that part of your duty? A. It was part of my 
duty to know about it; yes, sir ; not to observe, of course, every 
individual case ; I could not do that. 
Q. Now, do you know what became of the babies after the}" 2210 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
went out of the hospital? A. They were carried to the dead- 
house ; and they had funeral services said over the remains, of 
late years. 
Q. How many? A. Since that custom was instituted. 
Q. Since that custom was instituted? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When was that custom instituted, to say services over the 
babies? A. As near as I can recollect it has been within two 
or three years ; I cannot, say. 
Q. That is, since those who are born there have been taken 
away? A. When we had foundlings I know that question 
came up whether they should be handed over to Father Gigault, 
and he did sa}r services over some foundlings. I remember 
that question. 
Q. Were they turned over to anybody else except to Father 
Gigault? A. I don’t think the Protestant clergymen ever said 
services over them. Where there was a body of an infant we 
always handed it over to Father Gigault. 
Q. No children except- those supposed to be Catholic chil- 
dren came to Father Guiteau? A. Father Gigault. 
Q. Father Gigault. A. We presumed them to be that 
way. 
Q. That was so, was it not? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. What became of the others? A. Rev. Mr. French was 
pastor of the village church in Tewksbury for awhile, and he 
came down to have services over the others. 
Q. When was that? A. That was at the same time; it 
was part of the same system. 
Q. That is since about 1880 ? A. I forget the year. 
Q. Now, what was done with them after the services were 
said? A. They were taken from the chapel to the dead-house ; 
further than that I don’t know. 
Q. Then this was the way of the services : the Father came 
there and said the service over an infant, and it was taken back 
to the dead-house. The services were always said in the chapel, 
J understand? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He said the service over an infant, and it was taken back 
to the dead-house? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What became of it after that, you don’t know? A. No, 
sir. Sometimes, when I have specially requested an autopsy, 
I have made one ; and then, of course, I didn’t know any more 
about it, unless I happened to know about the friends coming 
after the bod} . 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2211 
Q. Except in cases where you made an autopsy after the 
funeral, or in some special case where friends came for it, what 
was done with all those babies’ bodies, you don’t know? A. 
I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Were there two rooms in the dead-house? A. Yes, 
sir. 
«Q. And an outer room? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who had the key to it? A. When I have kmrwn about 
the keys they have either been in the pocket of the man who 
had care of these things, or hanging up on a nail in the gate- 
room. 
Q. Did you ever have any key to that? A. No, sir. 
Q. What was this inner room for? A. When I have been 
in there I have usually found it empty ; sometimes I have found 
remains in there,—rarely. 
Q. What do you mean by remains? A. A body that may 
have been put in there to await the arrival of some friends, if I 
remember rightly, in this case. 
Q. How many times have you been in there ? A. Perhaps 
half a dozen times a year. 
Q. And perhaps less? A. It might have been more or 
less ; I could not say. 
Q. Now, did you know that bodies were being taken away 
and carried to Harvard College ? A. I understood that they 
were; yes, sir. 
Q. Didn’t you know it as well as you know anything? A. 
I know it; yes, sir. 
Q. By Manning? A. I know it by letters from the demon- 
strator. 
Q. You knew it by Manning? A. I never heard Manning 
say anything about it. I never had any knowledge from him 
about it. 
Q. Now, whenever you wanted an autopsy, or very fre- 
quently when you wanted an autopsy, didn’t you send down to 
Harvard to have it made — to have them give you information ? 
A. I had that done a number of times ; yes, sir. 
Q. That you have had done a number of times. That is to 
say, a man died at your place and then you wanted to know 
what he died of, and you would send down to Harvard to find 
out. When they cut him up they would find out? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And that was common. And that had been the practice 2212 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
within a few years? A. When you say “common” I should 
say not more than twice in a year. 
Q. But it went along, whenever you wanted it, twice a 
year? A. That is so; and the same has been done in the 
other medical institution. 
Q. And the same has been done in the other colleges of this 
country. Now, then, you knew that a certain man was going 
down there to be cut up. When you wanted an autopsy, was 
it always a Protestant, or sometimes a Catholic? A. I didn’t 
know them by that designation. 
Q. You didn’t? A. I didn’t pay any attention to that. 
Q. Yrou didn’t pay any attention to this religious part of it. 
You knew that the bodies of Catholics as well as Protestants, 
and Protestants as well as Catholics, and without any difference 
except that they didn’t have friends to call for them, were sent 
down there ? A. That part of it I never knew anything about 
and never thought anything about. 
Q. They wrere sent down indiscriminately.? A. I should 
think they were. 
Q. Very well; but over all the Catholics poor Father Gigault 
has been making his prayers and saying masses for their souls, 
hasn’t he? A. Protestants, too, just the same, till recently. 
Q. What? A. The Protestants have had their service just 
as much as the Catholics have till recently. 
Q. I am glad to hear they were no respecters of persons. 
Then all of them had funeral services, and then were sent to be 
cut up, as a rule, weren’t they? That was so, wasn’t it? A. 
I don’t know anything to the contrary. 
Q. You don’t know anything to the contrary ; and they were 
all prayed over that died? A. Yes, sir. * 
Q. Regular funeral service ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then sent and cut up and their remains fed to the 
fishes if that was convenient, or put into a box and stowed 
away all together with whoever else was there, after going 
through pails. How many years has that performance been 
going on at Tewksbury? A. llow many years has the re- 
ligious service been held? 
Q. Yes. A. Well, we were talking about that; I think I 
said two or three years. 
Q. Oh, more than that; Father Gigault went back to 1879 
and got his book. A. That is the time, then. 
Q. That is five years. A. Four. 1883 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2213 
Q. Four and over. A. I didn’t recollect about that. 
Q. Before that time they didn’t have any? A. Didn’t 
have religious service. 
Q. Before that time, — that goes back, now, to 1876, — now, 
I want to get that: before that time they didn’t go through the 
mockery of the ceremony ; they carted them off and cut them up 
without that performance before ? A. They didn’t have any 
service. 
Q. Didn’t have any service ? A. Not that I know anything 
of. There was once in a while a service. 
Q. When a friend came ? A. When a mother would lose a 
child, or when a death would occur on Sunday, there have been, 
when the preacher was there ; there would be service once in a 
while. 
Q. When a mother was there, and lost her child there, and 
she wanted service, she had it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But whether the child went to Harvard, or to the grave, 
you don’t know, do you? A. No, sir ; I could not say. 
Q. Could not say. Then, this would be the condition: A 
poor woman would have a child born there ; the child, under 
your medical administration would die, and she would want to 
have funeral services; if there was a chaplain handy of a Sun- 
day, funeral services would be held ; and then the child was 
taken to the dead-house, and the Lord knows where it went to, 
you don’t? A. I don’t. 
Q. That is it. Well, now, Doctor, did 3’ou keep any record 
of the people that died there ; you, yourself ? A. I never kept 
any record aside from the public records. 
Q. Did you keep the public records? A. I kept them, yes ; 
that is, one of them. 
Q. Were there two records? A. You might say there were 
three. There was what was called the stub book that contains 
the duplicate ; notice was sent to the office — 
Q. That is to say, there is a stub book of notices sent where 
3Tou know where the party’s relations are, or supposed to be 
sent? A. In every case. 
Q. In every case? A. In every case the physician who has 
the care of the case is supposed to write ; or some one, some 
physician, writes out this notice of death, and it is deposited in 
the office for the clerk to make his record. Then he keeps a 
record of death. That is recorded on his register, and is re- 
corded, also, in a list of deaths ; what is called the death-book. 2214 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. The death-book ? A. Besides that there is a register of 
sick, in which the death is recorded, also. 
Q. Is there any record,—did yon ever keep any record of 
burials? A. No, sir ; I never did. 
Gov. Butler. [To Mr. Innis.] Won’t you go down, Mr. 
Innis, and get me the two or three dead-books, and ask Mr. 
Records to come up here. Get all the dead-books. [To the 
witness.] Mr. Charles Marsh says there are certain memoranda 
made on these books. 
The Witness. On the death-book, on the last column, the 
name Gigault, or French, is put on, to indicate the person who 
performs the ceremony. 
Gov. Butler. I understand. 
The Witness. That is all I know about it. 
Q. Precisely ; but did }tou ever make an}' memorandum upon 
it? A. Upon this book? 
Q. Yes. A. I never did, except, sometimes, the diagnosis 
would be left blank, and I would fill it in afterwards. 
Q. That is to say, if you hadn’t found out exactl}' what he 
died of, and if you got word back from Harvard what he 
died of, then you would put it in? A. I would leave it blank, 
so as to have it properly entered. 
Q. That is very proper. A. There are not more than three 
or four cases of that kind. 
Q. Only three or four cases of that kind. After you had 
sent him down to be cut up, and it was found out what was the mat- 
ter with him, then you would put it in. That is all right, only they 
usually make autopsies in our country before the funeral and not 
after. You reversed that up to Tewksbury ; you made the fun- 
eral first and then the autopsy afterwards. A. Not always: 
sometimes made it first. 
Q. Not always, but sometimes, unless you made the autopsy 
yourself? A. If I made one myself, it would be — 
Q. Before the funeral? A. To suit the convenience of the 
priest about that; I should not interfere with him at all. 
Q. It would be according to the convenience of the priest; 
if it was just as convenient for him to perform the funeral cere- 
mony before the autopsy, he would do it; if it was more con- 
venient for him to do it afterwards, he would do it,— do you 
mean that? A. Yes, sir ; if he was right on the ground at the 
time of the death, of course he would have the service, 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2215 
Q. How soon was the service after death? A. After the 
death the notice is sent, and he is — 
Q. Take a case where there was no notice to be sent; that 
was a majority of the cases, of course, because the majority 
had no friends. A. I mean a notice to the priest or the minis- 
ter. 
Q. Yes. A. And then he would come within twenty-four 
hours, at his own convenience. 
Q. Yes. A. Not always within twenty-four in winter. 
Q. Sometime, he would come, at his convenience. A. 
Come at his own convenience. 
Q. Then he would have the ceremony, and if the man was 
wanted to be cut up he would then be cut up, or if he had been 
cut up before it was all just as well? A. We made very few 
autopsies there. 
Q. I observed you wanted a case of autopsical instruments, 
if I may use that word ; you hadn’t any. A. I have some of 
my own, but there is none that belong to the institution. 
Q. None belonging to the institution ; very well. Did you 
ever hear, while you were in the institution, about their satisfying 
a mother or a sister by putting a block of wood, or blocks of 
wood, into a coffin ; ever hear of that? A. No, I never did, 
sir, except since this investigation. 
Q. Well, now, we will go on a moment till we get the other ; 
do you know Lydia C. Moody? A. I do, sir. 
Q. What was she, a supervisor, a nurse, or an attendant? 
A. She was a nurse or an attendant; she had her part duties ; 
I think she was appointed by Mr. Marsh. 
Q. Appointed by who ? A. Appointed by Mr. Marsh. 
Q. By Mr. Marsh. A. During the interim. 
Q. During what ? A. She was appointed during the time 
when it was not a question in my mind whether I should ap- 
point the nurses or not. 
Q. How late was she there ? A. She left within a short 
time ; a week or two. 
Q. What was her condition ; how long had she been in the 
institution? A. I should think she had been there some years. 
Q. How many ? A. A year or two. 
Q. A year or two? A. And, perhaps, three. 
Q. And she left when; about a week ago? A. A week 
ago, perhaps, last Saturday; I think she left a week ago last 
Saturday, — I think she left. 2216 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Pregnant? A. No, sir; not that I know of. 
Q. What? A. No, sir; not that I know of. 
Q. Didn’t she leave on that account? A. No, sir; not 
that I know of. 
Q. Haven’t you so said? A. No, sir. 
Q. On account of some connection with men? A. She 
didn’t say anything to me about going, and I didn’t say any- 
thing to her about it. 
Q. No ; you didn’t have the appointment of her. A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Where has she gone to? A. That I could not say, 
sir. 
Q. Was there anything said at the time of her going about 
her condition, by anybody? Out with it, now, Doctor. A. 
There was a gossip about the place. 
Q. About what? A. There was a gossip around the place 
to the effect that you speak of. 
Q. She was in Dr. Otterson’s department? A. He, a part 
of the time, attended these cases. 
Q. Do you know Walter Winning? A. I do, sir. 
Q. Did you ever find him abusing the inmates ? A. I did, 
sir. 
Q. When was that? A. Well, he has not been in the in- 
stitution a very great while. It was about, I think, it was in 
the month of April, perhaps it might have been March. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) This year? A. Yes. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) This year; what was lie doing; 
in what department was he? A. He was in the hospital, 
men’s hospital. 
Q. The women’s hospital ? A. The men’s. 
Q. Men’s hospital; what did he do to to the men ? A. He 
boxed a man’s ears. 
Q. What man was that? A. It was a man named Battled. 
Q. What? A. The man’s name was Battles. 
Q. And he boxed his ears ; did jmu see him ? A. I did ; 
yes, sir. Well, I was near enough, I was in the next room, 
and I first heard him do it, and I stepped right in through the 
door and he had just taken his hand off of his ear; I was just 
in time to see that part of it, — heard the noise. 
Q. And you heard the box on the ear in the next room ? 
A. Yes, sir ; I was sitting there writing. 
Q. Writing? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2217 
Q. How far from him? A. About twenty-five feet, per- 
haps. 
Q. And opposite the door? A. I was right side of the 
door. 
Q. And you could hear it, and you went to him and saw his 
hand just coming away. A. Yes, sir; I jumped right up as 
soon as I heard him. He spoke to the man and that attracted 
my attention. 
Q. And saw his hand just coming away from his ear? He 
must have hit him more than once? A. I think he did; I 
think he hit him twice. 
Q. Twice ; yes. And what was the matter with this man, 
who was he, — you told me his name, — was he an old man or 
a young man? A. He was a man about twenty-five or thirty ; 
he boxed his ears for getting up without putting a blanket 
around his body as he wanted him to, without exposing himself 
in the ward. 
Q. The man got up; was he insane? A. He was de- 
mented. 
Q. Demented? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Hadn’t mind? A. No, sir. 
Q. And he was pounding him for that. Did the man cry 
out? A. No, sir. 
Q. No ; the man didn’t make any outcry. How many peo- 
ple were in the ward? A. I should think there was a ward 
full of patients ; I don’t remember any persons else. 
Q. Where were the other attendants, or supervisors? A. 
They might have been up at the other end without my noticing 
it. This was down at the lower end of the ward. 
Q. But they must have heard it, mustn’t they ; the ward was 
not so long — A. They might have done so ; I don’t recall 
that part of it. 
Q. You don’t recall that part of it. Was he a man of 
your appointment? A. No, sir; I didn’t appoint him. 
Q. But discharged him? A. He belonged to my department 
to appoint, if I had known about the change in the law. 
Q. He would have belonged to you if you had known about 
the law; and you discharged him? A. I did. 
Q. Now, all this was publicly known? A. That is, I sus- 
pended him subject to the approval of the trustees ; it had to 
be approved by the trustees, and he left. 2218 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. You suspended him and lie left? All this was publicly 
known, wasn’t it? A. How do you mean, publicly? 
Q. Why, the people, the attendants and people that were 
there knew about this thing, this occurrence; such a thing 
could not happen — A. Likely enough ; I don’t know anything 
about that part of it. 
Q. Well— A. Nobody spoke to me about it at all. 
Q. Very likely ; all this was done openly? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And ought to have been known as a warning to the rest? 
A. I spoke to him ; I scolded him right off, and told him it 
could not be allowed. 
Q. You scolded him right off, in the presence of everybody? 
A. I did, sir. 
Q. Attendants and everybody else; and jmt, the}’’ will 
come here and swear there never has been any complaint made 
there. A. I told him that if a man committed murder he 
must not strike him ; and I said it loud enough for everybody to 
hear. 
Gov. Butler. A demented man is not subject to punish- 
ment ; you were right, sir. Where are the rest of the death- 
books? [To Mr. Brown, producing one.] 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know anything about it; I haven’t seen 
them. 
The Chairman. Governor, they asked for two or three 
books to make up their monthly report, and possibly, one of 
these was taken. We will have it back here to-morrow. We 
allowed them to take the books temporality to make up the re- 
turns. 
Gov. Butler. Then I shall have to go into that later. [To 
the witness.] I shall have to have you here when it comes, and 
I must have the books. 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, take this man, — what was his name, Skillings? 
A. Battles was the man. 
Q. I mean the man you spoke of yesterday that I looked 
up at the time; I don’t remember names well. A. I don’t 
know what — 
Q. Rollins. A. I didn’t know what kind of a man you 
referred to. 
Q. Rollins. Now, what did Rollins do? A. He came in 
to me one day and said he had something to do in Haverhill. 
Q. fn Haverhill ; and when was that, after he had done 1883.] 
HOUSE--No. 300. 
2219 
something to this old man? A. Rollins, something to an old 
man ? 
Q. Yes. A. I don’t remember any such instance. 
Q. You were asked if Mr. Rollins hadn’t, —df you knew of 
an old man being black and blue all over, and you said \'ou 
didn’t. A. Not at the hands of Rollins. Well, I don’t know 
what you refer to. 
Q. Well, do you know of such an occurrence? A. I never 
heard of Rollins striking anybody. 
Q. Was it French who struck him? A. No, sir; I never 
heard of him striking, —it was Emmons French that was ac- 
cused of. striking a woman. 
Q. Striking a woman? A. Yes; that I spoke of yester- 
day, and Mr. Elliot — 
Q. That is one, and then there is another ; I had just as lief 
take French’s case ; French’s case is just as good as any other. 
He struck a woman, did he ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How did he strike her; where? A. Well, that was 
five or six years ago, and I don’t remember any of the incidents, 
only such as I related yesterday. 
Q. Pardon me ; I think I can help you. Where did he hit 
her? A. Pushed her over. 
Q. Pushed her over, or knocked her over ; now, why do you 
say pushed her? A. She came at him, and he probably hit 
her hard and knocked her down. 
Q. I have no doubt he did. A. Pushed her forcibly. 
Q. How do 3rou know she came at him? A. Only know 
from his statement. 
Q. His statement; and he that he did it in self- 
defence? A. He said that she attacked him, and that he did it 
with that view. 
Q. That is, he justified it on the ground of self-defence. 
Well, was he a ver}r little man? A. He was a short man; 
yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. He was a — 
Q. A short man. A. A very short man, but not a very 
slender man. 
Q. About five feet four ? A. Perhaps that would be about 
his height; he was quite small. 
Q. lie was within the soldier size ; and how old was he ? 
A. I think he was 2G at the time of his death; that was in 
’ll, 2220 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. And when did he die? A. I think he died in ’77. 
Q. And how long was this before he died? A. I only 
knew him from about October, 1875. 
Q. Then it must have been within a year or two of his death? 
A. Within a year or two of his death. 
Q. Then he was twenty-five or six ; a young man, of ordi- 
nary size ; and he knocked this woman down, or got her down 
somehow, in self-defence? Had she a chair, or a club, or any- 
thing? A. I don’t remember whether she had anything or 
not. 
Q. Don’t you know she didn’t? Because he complained 
her catching hold of him? A. I know he did. 
Q. I know he did. A. She came at him and caught hold 
of him, and he pushed her off, and in that way pushed her over, 
and that was what — 
Q. Didn’t he strike? A. I think very likely he did. 
Q. Now, why do you keep pushing in push all the time? 
A. I do because we didn’t see any marks or bruises upon her 
which indicated a blow. 
Q. Oh, then, — thank you, — you did look for marks, did 
ygu ? A. We went over there, and we — 
Q. Who was we? A. Mr. Elliot and myself; and his 
wife was present. 
Q. French’s wife ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The thing was so violent that complaint was made to the 
trustees ; who made it? A. That part of it I can’t remember. 
Q. Somebody made complaint to the trustee and the trustee 
came there and — A. The woman may have made it her- 
self. 
Q. She didn’t go over there, did she ; she didn’t leave ; she 
was an insane woman, wasn’t she? A. Yes, sir; but she 
might have made, to me. 
Q. She might have made it to you, I know ; don’t tell me 
what might have happened. The woman was an insane woman 
and she didn’t go over to the trustee to make a complaint, but 
somebody thought it was so severe that a Complaint ought to be 
made. Did you investigate into it before the trustee came? A. 
I did. 
Q. What? A. I did; yes, sir. 
Q. And how many days was it before the trustee came? A. 
There was one came every week. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2221 
Q. I have no doubt there was. A. I don’t know how long 
it was. 
Q. It might have been a week? A. The woman was not 
suffering' at all; she was strong and well. 
Q. Excuse me ; what do you want to crowd that in for? I 
have not asked whether she was suffering or not; of course it 
was a light touch from which she didn’t suffer ; but it was suf- 
ficient so that you investigated it. Here was an insane woman ; 
he was in her charge, and he, as you supposed, knocked her 
down, for you looked for the marks ; now you rather think he 
pushed her over. A. I didn’t say that. 
Q. And you or somebody thought it was severe enough to 
have an investigation by the trustees, and the trustee came 
there and investigated it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was he discharged? A. French? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. He was allowed still to remain in charge of the insane 
women? Well, did his wife justify him ; she was there? A. I 
don’t remember anything that she said. 
Q. She said nothing, so far as you remember ? Now, you 
were asked, I saw, very carefully, and I saw how carefully you 
put it, what kind of a man this French was, and you said he 
was a very efficient man ; and, then, you were asked, and then 
you said, —you were asked if he was a little rough in his man- 
ners, and you said no. Now, wasn’t he a man that had more 
than once been complained of for striking a patient, — on your 
oath? A. Well, when I used that term that he was not gentle, 
I used it advisedly, because I didn’t think that he was gentle 
enough, but I didn’t think he was rough enough or that he was 
guilty of deeds which w*ould lead us to discard him as an 
attendant; that was — 
Q. That is what you put it in for; yes, I understand it per- 
fectly, sir. A. That is really what we thought. 
Q. That is real!}* what you thought; he was just gentle 
enough to be there, and just rough enough that he ought not to 
have been there ; that is the way you want it, is it? Now, sir, 
will you answer my question : The question was, hadn’t you 
heard before that time of his assaulting women, or complaints 
of it? A. No, I don’t remember; those stories of assaults 
that have come since the investigation are new to me. 
Q. I don’t ask you whether this investigation was new to 
you? A. T don’t recall any such stories, sir, 2222 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I don’t ask you to recall the story. On your oath, sir, 
hadn’t you heard of these complaints, or complaints of that 
kind, without recalling the stories? A. I have mentioned to 
you the worst thing I ever knew him to do. 
Q. I agree; but that is not what I want. A. And the 
worst thing I ever knew anybody to do in the institution. 
Q. What, simply to push her over ? A. In self-defence ; to 
protect himself— 
Q. In self-defence against a woman? A. In these alterca- 
tions, which occur invariably, and will occur, in asylums. 
Q. And yet, you told us just before, that when a man’s ears 
were boxed twice that that was so bad you discharged him? A. 
Yes, sir ; that was a different kind of a case. 
Q. I know ; it was a young man in that case and you dis- 
charged him. A. It was because I knew that — 
Q. I understand; he was a young man. You discharged 
Winning because he boxed a man’s ears? A. Because it was 
unjustifiable. 
Q. Unjustifiable ; yes, very well,—and a demented man’s ears. 
But it was justifiable, was it, to knock a woman down who was 
also insane, by a man, with plenty of people in the ward? How 
many people were in the ward at that time when this brute struck 
her? A. I don’t suppose there was anybody there that was 
sane. 
Q. Don’t know there was anybody there that was sane ; 
why was he there alone with her in the women’s ward, all alone 
writh insane women? What time in the day was it? A. I 
don’t remember the hour of the day. 
Q. Well, without remembering the hour? A. I can’t say. 
Q. Was it in the daytime or evening? A. AYell, I can’t 
say. 
Q. You don’t know enough to know whether it was daytime 
or evening. How man}7 people were there, then, there within 
call? A. Without keeping any notes, it would be impossible 
for me to name a person. 
Q. Without any notes ; but how many, in the situation of 
the thing, were within call,— the night-watchman, if in the 
night; and the day-watchman, if in the day ; and other attend- 
ants? A. There were no attendants in that part of the buikU 
ing, employed, but himself and his wife. 
Q. And wras his wife there ? A. Whether she was or not —~ 
Q. You don’t know? A. I presume not. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2223 
Q. Now, then, did }tou really think that,— why didn’t 3*011 
give him the same instruction you did Winning, here, within a 
short time? A. It was a long time ago, sir; I can’t remember 
so well. 
Q. But, pardon me, my question was : Why didn’t 3*011 give 
him the same instruction you did Winning, since you got up this 
investigation, that he must not strike an insane man if he at- 
tempted to commit murder ? A. I may have given him instruc- 
tion of that kind ; I don’t remember. I can’t testify to what I 
don’t recall. 
Q. Well, I say, you don’t know that you did? A. I can’t 
remember anything definite about that. 
Q. Now, we will go back. I want to get my question an- 
swered, — }rou have answered everything else ; 3tou said this is 
the worst thing 3*011 ever knew him to do ; I was asking you if 
3’ou hadn’t heard before of complaints of his striking his female 
patients, — female, well, I call them patients, insane people? 
A. Yes, sir ; I don’t remember an3T complaints. 
Q. I don’t ask 3Tou whether you remember the complaints. 
A. You asked if I had ever fieard aiy* complaints of his strik- 
ing— 
Q. No, no, no ! Haven’t you heard of complaints? I don’t 
mean you shall dodge. A. I don’t want to dodge; I am 
read3T to answer 3*our questions. 
Q. Very well; on your oath, hadn’t 3Tou heard complaints 
of him, —whatever were the particulars of them I don’t ask, — 
of his using rougher or harshl3r people under his control? A. 
I don’t remember any. 
Q. Well, 3rou still don’t answer my question. Ever hear 
of an3r ? A. I say I don’t remember to have heard of an3r. I 
have heard of that case of Miss Calder’s, but this was after 
this. Miss Calder complained, you will remember. 
Q. What? A. Miss Calder complained that Mr. French— 
Q. I am coming to that; he struck this insane woman, and 
then, how soon did he strike another? A. I don’t know that 
he ever struck anybod3T else. 
Q. What did he do; how soon before he treated harshly 
another? A. I don’t remember that he ever treated liarshty 
another ; I alwa3Ts thought he was kind to them. 
Q. I know ; he was a very kind man ! But I am not asking 
that. Wasn’t there a complaint that he treated another harsh- 
ly? A. If there was, I didn’t get it that I remember. 
ing — 2224 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Afterwards? A. I remember that affair that Miss 
Calder spoke of. 
Q. Miss who, spoke of? A. Miss Calder complained 
about that case, but I never thought there was any truth in it. 
Q. I don’t ask whether you think there was any truth in it; 
what did she complain of? A. She saw the remains of an in- 
sane woman, with black and blue spots upon the remains, and 
she thought that these black and blue spots were due to blows. 
Q. When was that; how long after the time when he struck 
this woman? A. Well, I would not say with regard to the 
chronology of the matter. 
■ Q. To the what? A. I would not say with regard to the 
chronology, — before or after. 
Q. But, pardon me ; I asked you if you ever heard of au}T 
complaints before and you swore that you didn’t, and said it 
was after that, after he struck this woman in self-defence. A. 
Yes ; but he was there so long ago that I should prefer not to 
definitely fix that time. 
Q. Very well; whenever it was. A. It was six }Tears ago 
that he died. 
Q. All the worse if he was kept there after the second time. 
Now, wa’n’t your attention called to the body of a person that 
was beaten, supposed to have been beaten, by this man? A. 
I don’t remember any case except that I speak of, Miss 
Calder’s. 
Q. What? A. That Miss Calder referred to. 
Q. Chandler referred to; was your attention called to that? 
A. I think it was. 
Q. Did you examine the body? A. I think I did. 
Q. Do you know you did? A. I don’t know whether I 
did or some other physician. 
Q. Never mind ; I want to know whether you did. A. I 
think 1 did ; yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know }'on did? A. I don’t remember the act- 
ual looking at it; I have examined a good many bodies. 
Q. 1 know you have ; that I don’t ask you. A. So 1 can’t 
recall this, now. 
Q. Then say so. A. I remember making an examination 
into that case, into the merits of it, and, I presume, that was a 
part of the examination. 
Q. Have you any notes of it? A. I haven’t anything very 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2225 
extended, only jnst a, little note in the prescription-book that I 
made. 
Q. A little note in the prescription-book. Now, then, can 
you tell after death, when the blood is settled under the skin, 
ecliinosis, or, as we say, turned black and blue, —whether that 
is the effect after death or coming from some blow or pressure 
before? A. TJsually we can. 
Q. Can 3rou always? A. One of the most common ways 
of telling is by the position, the location of spots, and their 
distribution ; and it is a very rare thing indeed for that dis- 
tribution and location to correspond with the blows, with such 
as would be given by blows. 
Q. Can you tell,— suppose a man or a woman should be 
taken and pounded to death, all over her back, could you tell,— 
her skin not being broken, which would not be likely to be by 
blows,—after death can you tell that these black and blue 
spots came from the decomposition of the body after death? A. 
It is a matter of judgment about these things ; there is no rule. 
Gov. Butler. I thought so myself. 
The Witness. Only — 
Gov. Butler. I will give you the reason why I thought so. 
Mr. Brown. Won’t you let him answer. 
Gov. Butler. Well? 
The Witness. Like a great many other things the judgment 
must be used in the matter. 
Q. This complaint was— A. In a great many points. 
Q. That she was pounded all over; that was the complaint, 
wasn’t it? A. I don’t remember the features of it. I exam- 
ined into the case and came to my conclusion definitely at the 
time. 
Q. Now, then, you examined into that case ; did you talk 
with Emmons French about it? A. I can’t tell. 
Q. The woman was dead, you could not talk with her; did 
you talk with French? A. I suppose I did, but I don’t re- 
member whether I did or not. 
Q. Did j’ou ask an3r of the people that saw it? A. I had 
conversation with the people in the house where she died, and 
where she was sick. 
Q. In the house where she was sick ; did 3rou have conver- 
sation with those people that saw the thing done, claimed to 
have seen it? A. I don’t remember that an3rbod3r did claim 
that they saw it done, or that there was any reason given why 2226 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
anybody supposed it was'done, except Miss Calder’s seeing the 
remains, seeing the body; that is all, as 1 recollect, that she 
alleged at all. 
Q. That is all you recollect at this time. Now, sir, do you 
know of any other person that was assaulted there? A. I 
I don’t think of any, sir. 
Q. Won’t you try to think ; remember a man that got hit 
with a pick-axe by an insane man? A. Well, we have had 
several cases, several cases of injury where one inmate has 
struck another. 
Q. Yes; then that is not infrequent at all? A. I should 
not say it was frequent; perhaps three or four times a year 
cases of that kind would occur. 
Q. Three or four times a year, always, and some pretty bad 
injuries? A. No ; I don’t think as often as that. 
Q. What? A. I think there are sometimes we have been a 
whole year without any case. 
Q. And then there would be a good many, — enough to make 
up the average? A. Perhaps two or three. 
Q. Three or four ; were those usually cases of insane people 
making the assaults? A. No, sir; generally7 cases of some- 
body who was irritated by7 something somebody’ said or did. 
Q. And sometimes cases where the attendants made the as- 
sault, irritated by something that was said or done? A. I don’t 
remember any case of that kind, 
Q. Except those — A. Except those I speak of. 
Q. Are French and Winning the only7 men who struck dur- 
ing the time you were there? A. Those cases are the only7 
ones I recall; I think it is. a very rare thing for a person to 
strike. 
Q. I should hope so. Now, then, will you tell me whether 
these cases were well known, where people had got hurt; we 
will come back to that pickaxe affair, where the insane man chose 
to strike another inmate’s head,—how came an insane man 
outside with a pickaxe? A. The insane labor on the farm. I 
don’t remember the particulars of the case to which you refer, 
but the insane work on the farm. 
Q. Didn’t you ever hear of it? A. I don’t remember; very 
likely I might have dressed the wound and might have known of 
the circumstances without remembering. 
Q. Well, do you remember that such a thing happened? A. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2227 
I don’t remember about its being a pickaxe that anybody used 
to strike. 
Q. Out at the barn, or out in the yard? A. There have 
been, — I can remember that there have been instances where 
insane people have struck those around them. 
Q. With the instrument that they had in their hands? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. How many instances of that? A. Well,’ I don’t think 
they have been verjr common. 
Q. A dozen? A. Oh, no, sir; I should not think there 
have been more than two or three ; three or four, perhaps. 
Q. Somewhere there has been grievous injury done? A. 
I don’t remember any, sir, where there has been any grievous 
injury. 
Q. Well, those were all well known in the institution, I sup- 
pose? A. Where we found a man that was dangerous we 
removed him. 
Q. Will you answer my question? These cases were well 
known, whatever there were of them, in the institution, weren’t 
they? A. They were known within certain circles; probably 
among the farm workers they would be known. 
Q. And among the attendants they would be known, for 
they would have to take care of them? A. Among those in 
the hospital who would be likely to take care of them; yes, 
sir. 
Q. And it would be likely to be talked about, wouldn’t it? 
A. If it was anything at all serious it would be likely to be 
talked about. 
Q. And yet we have had people here swearing they never 
heard of anything of that kind happening; everything was 
lovely. A. We have had insane people who have been violent, 
of course, at times, have done violent things. 
Q. Now, in spite of these several occasions where men 
have been hurt by insane people, still the insane people are 
allowed to go out, — not only allowed, but required to go out 
and work on the farm, and furnished with tools which may be 
made dangerous weapons of? A. Not the same persons that 
have been dangerous. 
Q. No, not the same ; you take another man, and try it on 
with him. A. We employ the insane for labor in the institu- 
tion, in various parts of it. 2228 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And you think that is a thing that ought to be done ? 
A. I think it is better, on the whole, to do it; }res, sir. 
Q. Where they are to have murderous weapons, or what 
may be made murderous weapons, — an axe may be made a 
murderous weapon, — put into their hands? A. I think that 
there is an element of danger about it. 
Q. An element of danger; and don’t you think that element 
over-balances the amount — A. The amount of good to the 
insane? 
Q. Amount of good ; yes. A. 1 don’t think it has, on the 
whole, at Tewksbury. 
Q. You don’t think it has? A. I think, at Tewksbury, the 
insane have been more benefited themselves than they have in- 
jured other peojde by working on the farm. 
Q. AYell, how benefited themselves? A. I think their 
minds have been greatly benefited, — those who have been well 
enough to work on the farm ; they have been made better by 
that work. 
Q. Undoubtedly ; but let us see. Every one was incurable ; 
you never have cured one, 1 don’t suppose ; what benefit has 
been done, what good has been done ? What benefit to the 
mind has been done ? A. The man is happier if he can do a 
day’s work and eat good meals and sleep well nights. 
Q. If he has had exercise enough ; but that could be done 
without giving them dangerous weapons, couldn’t it? A. It 
should be avoided giving him dangerous weapons ; yes, sir. 
Q. You read Dr. Tucker’s saying that he didn’t think it was 
even safe to trust an insane woman with scissors? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Now, we will go on a little further, sir. The superin- 
tendent entertained very liberally there at Tewksbury, didn’t he? 
A. lie sat a very nice table. 
Q. Sat a very nice table ; yes. But that would not entertain 
anybody unless somebody came and eat it? A. No; I didn’t 
know what you meant. 
Q. What! You, a physician — A. I understand now. 
Q. AYell, now, will you answer the question, if you do know 
what it means ; did he entertain liberally? A. It is a question 
of judgment, what is liberal. There is very often some one at 
the table who was not employed at the institution. 
Q. I know ; very often. But wasn’t there usually ? A. Not 
usually, except at dinner. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2229 
Q. At dinner. Didn’t people come there and stay all night? 
A. Sometimes. 
Q. Frequently? Let me help you a little. Haven’t you seen 
senators spending the Sunday there? A. I have; yes, sir; in 
one or two cases. 
Q. How lately? A. I don’t know whether any senator has 
been there this session of the legislature ; I know that Senator 
Winship came there and spent Sunday, once, when he was sena- 
tor. 
Q. And didn’t he spend Sunday more than once? A. Yes, 
sir ; he did. 
Q. Wasn’t he there almost every Sunday for a considerable 
time? A. Oh, no, sir; no, sir; I don’t think he ever did; I 
don’t think he ever did more than twice ; that is my recollec- 
tion. 
Q. Did Mr. Wade, Levi C. Wade, — was he there spending 
Sundays? A. He came there once and lectured in the towji, 
or spoke, some way, and that is the only time I remember his 
being there. 
Q. Didn’t he spend Sunday ? A. He may have stayed over 
night; I think that is all at a time. 
Q. He lectured, — a political lecture, I suppose, you mean? 
A. Well, I don’t remember definitely about it, so long ago, but 
I think it was. 
Q. And General Swift? A. He has not been there for a 
couple of 3rears. 
Q. Pardon me ; has he been there at all? A. Oh, yes, sir ; 
he has been there. 
Q. More than once, twice, or thrice? A. I should say he 
had since I have been there. 
Q. Now, we have learned that brother Brown was there ; and 
you went to hear him, I hope? A. I did. 
Q. And Gov. Long? A. I did ; I went to hear the Demo- 
cratic speakers, too. 
Q. It was a regular recruiting station of the Republican 
party, wasn’t it? 
Mr. Brown. You didn’t hear what he said ; he said he went 
to hear the Democratic speakers, also. 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubt he did ; if he hadn’t it would 
have killed him ; it would have struck in. 
Mr. Brown. Tewksbury has for a long time been the nursery 
for the Democratic party. 2230 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Been what, sir? 
Mr. Brown. The nursery of the Democratic party. 
Gov. Butler. Has it? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I think it is now. 
Mr. Brown. No question about it. 
Gov. Butler. I agree, fully. 
Q. All the Republican speakers that came to town for a 
long series of years were entertained there., weren’t they, ever 
since you have been there? A. Well, all the Republican 
speakers, — once a year, perhaps, there would be one that 
would. 
Q. I should hope, in a town of odd votes, or a hun- 
dred votes, or something of that sort, they would not come 
oftener than once a year ; but they sent their largest guns there. 
Mr. Brown. Did you ever go up there when you were a 
Republican ? 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; I did not. I am not in the habit of 
sponging around on poorhouses. That was in the purer days of 
the Republican party. 
Q. Now, did they ever entertain any Democratic speakers 
there? A. I don’t remember of any. 
Q. You don’t remember an}- ; try and tax your memory if 
ever one. got even a crust of pauper’s bread or a drink of 
pauper’s tea, during these years ? A. I still answer as I said, 
I don’t remember. 
Q. You don’t remember any. Well, did it ever occur to 
you, when things were going on there, while all these things 
were going on there, that there might be some connection 
between the entertainment of these Republican speakers and 
the hold that the Marshes had on this institution? A. I 
alwaj's thought they were interested in politics. 
Q. Yes; largely interested in politics? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They attended all manner of conventions, didn’t they? 
A. None but Thomas. 
Q. Thomas ; yes, he was the politician. Now, then, didn’t 
Thomas, — that comes right to the next matter on my brief, — 
didn’t Thomas spend a good deal of time down here in the 
legislature, at the legislature? A. I very seldom visit the 
legislature, myself; I know he often went away from the insti- 
tution. 
Q. Well, didn’t you know where he was? Didn’t you hear 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2231 
anything; wasn’t he absent during the session of the legis- 
lature a great portion of the time? A. He went away a good 
deal; 3Tes, sir. 
Q. A great portion of the time ; and hasn’t that been for 
years? A. I should say he was always very much interested 
in the movements of the legislature. 
Q. I know he was ; and he always got very near it to see 
the movements, didn’t he? A. More or less, I suppose. 
Q. Now, sir, whether Tom Marsh didn’t make most of the 
purchases for the institution during the last past two years ? A. 
I should not say he made most of them, sir; he has made more 
during the last year, 1 think, than before, as far as I have been 
observant. 
Q. And did he make them before? A. As far as my 
department was concerned, he did not, sir, that I knew of. 
Q. I understand that; we know all about the Spalding 
contract; we won’t go into that now ; T am asking about sup- 
plies. A. I mean, as far as I have been aware, Mr. Marsh, 
Sr., has done the buying, as far as I have been observant, most 
of the time I have been there. Occasionally, perhaps, during 
the last year or so, Thomas has done some of it. That has 
been mjr observation about it; I don’t know anything beyond 
my own supplies. 
Q. Do you know Henry Moulton, of Lowell? A. I do, 
sir. 
Q. Whether he has been a very frequent visitor at the alms- 
house, Sundays, and other times, at the institution ? A. Yes, 
sir; he comes down often. 
Q. Spend Sunday ? A. He don’t spend Sunday often, but 
once in a great while he has spent Sunday. 
Q. But he is a frequent visitor? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And, that remains up to this time, substantially"? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. In order that we may not make a mistake, I mean Henry 
Moulton, the editor of the “ Lowell Citizen.” A. Yes, sir; 
that is the one I mean. 
Q. He was formerly clerk ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He was clerk at the time the letter of Gov. Rice sayTs 
there W’as $1,500 short in the accounts, wasn’t he? A. He has 
not been connected with the institution as an officer since I was 
there. 
Q. I know he was not, and I have carried it back to that 2232 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
time; he was the clerk who preceded Charles Marsh. Now, 
sir, was there any trouble between you and Mr. Sanborn of the 
board of charities about the disposition of an appropriation, a 
difference of opinion? A. I don’t recall anything of that 
kind, sir. 
Q. About the time of the appropriation for painting? A. 
When do you mean, sir? 
Q. I mean at the time. A. How long ago? 
Q. A considerable time ago, sir. A. No, sir; I don’t re- 
member anything. 
Q. Then what did yon want to know how long ago it was 
for? A. Because we had a talk. 
Q. What? A. Because rccentty he did ask me about it. 
Q. There .was some appropriation for painting the building ; 
he wanted it to go one way and you the other? A. Well, he — 
Q. When was that? A. That was a week or two ago. 
Q. A week or two ago. You wanted it to go toward the 
hospital? A. I didn’t care anything about it. I don’t know 
of anything, only, unless you refer to a suggestion that has 
been made that the, — I don’t know as it has any reference to 
me, especially, — an inquiry that was made out at the institu- 
tion as to whether or not the appropriation which has been 
passed by the legislature, which was made for painting, could 
be used for making other alterations in connection with the 
moving of the insane. That was a matter of talk about the 
institution. 
Q. That was made by Mr. Sanborn? A. Yes, sir; as far 
as I know it was. I don’t know about it, whether it originated 
with him. 
Q. Now, I want to go to another matter. How many days 
did it average in a month that there were flowers in your hos- 
pital? I don’t mean the ordinary field-flowers that are picked 
up, but I mean hot-house flowers? A. Unless they have 
plants growing in some of the wards of the women’s side. 
Q. Outlie women’s side they have plants growing? A. J 
think in one or two places there are some. 
Q. Any cut flowers? A. Not very often, sir. 
Q. Not very often, and that is in the female ward ; any in 
the hospital itself? A. 1 have not seen cut flowers in the hos- 
pital very often. 
Q. What? A. I have cut flowers, — well, I have not seen 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2233 
any to speak of except such as the inmates either raised them- 
selves, or got from their friends once in awhile. 
Q. Now, then, you have a greenhouse there, haven’t you? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How large is it; how many years has it been there? A. 
Perhaps 30 by 40. 
Q. What? A. Thirty by forty feet, I suppose. 
Q. Thirty by forty feet; who tends it? A. George Fitz- 
gerald. 
Q. An inmate? A. No, sir. 
Q. The gardener? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Employed to attend it? A. He lias the care of the 
garden, and besides that has the care of the greenhouse. 
Q. Didn’t he have inmates to help him? A. He has in- 
mates to help him ; -yes, sir. 
Q. Under whose charge is that; whether it isn’t under the 
charge of Charles Marsh? A. That part of it 1 don’t know. 
Q. Don’t you know whether Charles Marsh— A. Charles 
Marsh has always been a good deal interested in the greenhouse, 
but whether it was any of his duty as clerk — 
Q. Pardon me ; I never asked that. I never thought about 
its being his duty ; I thought it was exactly the other way. He 
has been a good deal interested in the greenhouse ; where do 
the cut flowers goto — are they sold? A. Well, sir; I don’t 
know. 
Q. They don’t come to the inmates, do they? A. I have 
usually seen some in the office on the table I 
Q. That is rather for the use of the officer, isn’t it; that is, 
Charles Marsh? A. That, I suppose, is for the observation of 
any one that might happen to come into the office. 
Q. I understand. Well, now, I sometimes have flowers on 
my table and 1 don’t think it is for the use of other'"people, I 
think it is for my use. Have you ever seen any anywhere else 
but in Charles Marsh’s office? A. The office of the institu- 
tion. 
Q. Undoubtedly, it is the office of the institution, but it is 
the office he occupies. A. Sometimes the gardener has given 
my wife flowers. 
Q. I have no doubt, one or two. The only wonder is — he 
ought to have given her a bouquet once a week to have treated 
her fairly ; I am not upon that matter. A. I don’t know. 2234 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I want to know, — here is a greenhouse, 30 by 40, heated 
by steam? A. Yes, sir; hot water. 
Q. Heated by hot-water pipes, covered with glass, in our 
climate, cost anywhere from $700 to $1,300 a year, according 
to how it is driven, and your wife has got a flower or two out of 
it, and there has been now and then a little bouquet on the 
office table, — oh, perhaps they have used them all up at the 
funerals ; did you ever see any there? A. I have. 
Q. You never saw any at a funeral, have you? A. I have, 
occasionally, when they have asked for them. 
Q. When what? A. Sometimes a mother has gone and 
asked for them for her child and they have been given to her. 
Q. How often ? A. I think generally". 
Q. When they go aud ask for them? A. When they go 
and ask for them they have the flowers given them. 
Q. That only" applies, then, to the children, when the mother 
w-ants them ; the grown people get along without them. Now, 
then, all that has been done without any benefit to the inmates. 
How many attendants, — when y-ou wanted these extra nurses 
and could not have them on account of economy, — how many 
extra attendants could y-ou have had out of that sum, by cutting 
off' the greenhouse that wasn’t any good to anybody but Marsh? 
A. I never estimated that, — the expense of the greenhouse. 
Q. If it cost $900 a year that would give yon three extra 
attendants at $300 each, which is the highest price paid, sub- 
stantially7? A. The women ; y es. 
Q. The women ; there could have been three more nurses 
there byT just cutting off that expense. Well, it must have 
been pretty7 large ; I see they had 1,500 potted plants. A. 
Those are all set out in the ground. 
Q. Undoubtedly". A. This time of year. 
Q. Undoubtedly, because they would die if they7 were kept 
in the hot-house ; I know what becomes of them in the summer 
time, you know ; they would die if left in the hot-house ; they 
must be put out and kept out doors and put back in the hot- 
house next winter. Thank y ou for your information ; you see 
I never knew that before. A. I was merely7 giving you infor- 
mation as to — 
Q. Now, then, y7ou have bulbs kept, besides potted plants, 
in the greenhouse ; orange trees. A. There is one. 
Q. One orange tree; lemon? A. I don’t remember any 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2235 
lemon ; I am not very well conversant with the greenhouse, any 
way ; I remember seeing the oranges there. 
Q. And calla lilies in the winter? A. I remember seeing 
tliat plant. 
Q. How is it about roses ? A. I don’t remember; there 
might have been a good many without my noticing them. There 
are a good many very nice plants. 
Q. You didn’t get much good out of the greenhouse at all, 
so far as I can see, and your patients none. Ever any flowers 
taken out of that greenhouse and potted plants to trim up with 
when committees of the legislature came? A. I don’t think 
there have been ail}' on those occasions. 
Q. Pretty sure? A. Once in a great while we have had 
flowers put in the hospital, but I don’t remember the occasion on 
which it was. 
Q. Once in a great while. These reports, sir, show that 
1,000 potted plants were put in as part of the things that were 
raised on the farm, and 1,500 cuttings and bulbs; now, sir, do 
you know what is done with these cuttings and bulbs and these 
potted plants? A. No, sir; 1 don’t know7 anything about 
them. 
Q. They are the private perquisite of somebody ; they are 
not used at the institution, to your knowledge? A. No, sir; 
except in the cases I speak of, occasionally. 
Q. Yes, occasionally; but, as a rule, they are not. Now7, 
here is 667 quarts of strawberries last year; how many times 
were there any strawberries in the hospital? A. 1 don’t 
know, sir. 
Q. You don’t know? A. Whether there was any strawber- 
ries issued to the hospital. 
Q. You never knew of any ? A. T don’t remember any. 
Q. Then, there is 2,500 asparagus roots ; wdien did you ever 
know any asparagus issued to the hospital patients? A. 1 
don’t happen to remember whether asparagus has been ; the 
vegetables — 
Q. Leave out the other vegetables, sir? A. They have 
been. 
Q. There were vegetables issued, of coui'se, but the choice 
vegetables, — how many gooseberries? Here is 79 quarts of 
those ; how many of those have been issued to the hospital ? 
A. I don’t know anything about the gooseberries. 
Q. Currants, 159 quarts of them ; any of them issued to the 2236 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
hospital? A. I have an idea they did issue currants once last 
summer ; I have an idea the}' did. 
Q. You sort of have an idea they did. Well, sir, with all 
these things growing there, it would have been a comfort to the 
people in the hospital, and rather an advantage to them, if 
they could have had them, wouldn’t it? A. They would have 
enjoyed them. 
Q. They would have enjoyed them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And it would have contributed to their health, for any- 
thing that w'ould contribute to the enjoyment of a sick person 
would contribute to their health, wouldn’t it? That is why we 
give them delicacies ; that is so, isn’t it? A. Yes, of course. 
Q. Now, sir, when you could order all these things into the 
hospital, tell us, on your oath, why you didn’t contribute thus to 
the enjoyment of your patients ? A. 1 regarded these things 
as a part of the superintendent’s supplies for him to distribute 
according to his judgment. 
Q. No, sir; according to his judgment! Pardon me. A. 
1 didn’t regard them — 
Q. You had authority to call upon him for anything for the 
dietetics of your hospital that you chose ; no doubt about that. 
A. Other than the ordinary almshouse supplies. 
Q. Other than the ordinary almshouse supplies ; these would 
be other than the ordinary almshouse supplies, clearly. A. 
He had these things on the farm, and he furnished them to the 
tables, the various tables of the employees ; and when he had a 
sufficient number, he has furnished them to the hospitals, but 
not of these particular things that you have spoken of. 
Q. I am speaking of these particular things, now. Were 
these furnished to the employees’ tables, that 1 have been 
speaking of? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Currants and gooseberries? A. I don’t happen to re- 
member about gooseberries; the currants and strawberries 
were. 
Q. The currants and strawberries. A. And asparagus. 
Q. And asparagus,—-French Joe and all? A. They may 
have been. I don’t remember about the inmates having ever 
these particular things. 
Q. Now, sir, why didn’t it occur to you that these things, 
instead of going to these employees who are well, ought to go 
to the sick? They are raised at the expense of the State and if 
anybody should have them the sick and dying should have the 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2237 
first right to them ; when the statute gave you the power, why 
didn’t you exercise it. A. I never looked at it in that light, 
as being a part of ray duty to distribute these supplies. 
Q. You never looked at it in that way? A. Alwaj’s left 
that to the superintendent. 
Q. Now, then, under the statute, — confessedly as you agree 
and as I agree, although you thought something about the law 
being recently changed, but there was one time when the 
statute gave you that power, —now, how could you, as a kind- 
hearted man, looking after the sick people, with these things 
raised by the State for their use, — for all this institution is not 
for the use of the employees but for the use of inmates — why 
didn’t it occur to you to order these things on to their table in- 
stead of down your own throat? A. All I can say is that I 
considered that to be the department of the superintendent. 
Q. Well, but the statute said it was yours, at a time when 
there was no doubt about the statute. Well, did you ever re- 
monstrate with him, you, a physician, knowing that these tilings 
were wanted, these delicacies, did you ever say to Captain 
Marsh, “ Why, Captain Marsh, raising all these things here, 
why don’t the sick get a few; why do you gobble them all for 
the officers?” A. The sick did get a good many vegetables. 
Q. I have no doubt; but these particular and peculiar vege- 
tables? They got vegetables, but they didn’t get any common 
cabbage. A. These peculiar ones you speak of were not raised 
in sufficient quantities to supply the whole hospital. 
Q. Weren’t they? You are now getting off from tny ques- 
tion ; my question is in regard to these special things: — how 
glad you are to get away, — A. I was not getting away 
from the special things ; that is just what I am speaking about. 
Q. My question was, these peculiar things, — the strawber- 
ries, the currants, the potted plants and the bulbs and the cut- 
tings,— all these things which administer to the sight and 
pleasure of these sick people. Now, why didn’t you remon- 
strate with Mr. Marsh and say “ Why should not they have 
these ? These belong to them.” 1 don’t mean to go into the 
question whether they ought to be raised or not for paupers, 
but I think they had a great deal better be raised for paupers 
to consume than for idle employees to consume, who get too 
much wages an} how. Now, why didn’t you say a word to 
Captain Marsh on that subject? If it was in his province, and 
you thought it was not in yours, although the statute puts it 2238 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
there, why didn’t you remonstrate with him, as a kind-hearted 
man? A. We provided them with such things as wre raised 
on the farm, in sufficient abundance for them, as far as we could. 
I don’t remember they ever furnished these particular things to 
them. 
Q. 1 understand. In 1862, when it didn’t cost but $49,000 
to run this institution, there were 16,260 heads of cabbage 
raised, and no potted plants and no strawberries, and none of 
all this sort of things. Now this year, when it costs $93,000 
to run it, there are no cabbages except 300 red cabbages — and 
the}’ don’t cut them up — there are no cabbages, and all these 
potted plants and strawberries. A. We often discussed the 
matters of diet. 
Q. You did often discuss it? A. AVe often talked over 
matters of diet; but 1 don’t remember that those particular 
things were furnished. 
Q. Were they ever spoken about? AVe know the}’ were 
not furnis*hed. A. I don’t think I ever made a requisition on 
him to furnish strawberries to the insane or to the sick or to 
anybody among the inmates. 
Q. No sick or dying person, when they were there, had any 
of these 667 quarts of strawberries? A. I would not say 
that they had not been furnished. 
Q. 1 am upon the point of what you were doing. If they 
were furnished they Avere furnished without your requisition? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, how comes it that you were brought here 
from the AVest, like a thunderbolt out of a clear sky, Avhere you 
Avere sem'ng for $900 a year, to be put into this institution? 
How came they to know that you existed? To whom arc you 
related, by blood or marriage, that is connected with this insti- 
tution? A. My father resided in Hamilton, Mass. 
Q. Very likely; but Avill you answer my question. A. 
That is what I am doing. I came on to see him on account of 
his illness, and I asked him where the institution was located, 
because I was interested in the institution as being similar to 
the one I Avas connected Avith at the AArest. And he said that 
he knew a gentleman who was one of the trustees, and he gave 
me a letter to him. That was Mr. Daniel E. Salford, avIio was 
a lawyer in Salem. I took the letter to him and Avent down to 
the institution to visit it alone. I went all over it. Mr. Marsh 
told me that they needed a physician. I thought I would like 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2239 
the place, and made formal application for it in writing. That 
was the end of it until I received the appointment. 
Q. Now there is one part of my question you haven’t 
answered — to whom were you related ? A. I am not at all 
related to any one of them that I know of, officers or trustees. 
Q. By blood or marriage? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you undergo any examination, competitive or other? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Did anybody here know anything about your qualifica- 
tions? A. Mr. Marsh and Mr. Elliot — 
Q. Mr. Marsh knew about them? 
Mr. Brown. He was going to answer. 
The Witness. The}7 went West, and were around inquiring, 
I found out. 
Q. Mr. Marsh? A. And Mr. Elliot. 
Q. Mr. Marsh and Mr. Elliot? A. Yes, sir; they went 
around inquiring where I had lived, and inquired at the institu- 
tion. T was not there when they visited it, but I heard of it. 
Q. Now, then, with the exception of a little while when you 
were called in, about two months — a few months — when you 
were called in to this almshouse or county house, did you have — 
you were employed all the time in taking care of men, mostly 
in soldiers’hospitals? A. I lived in Detroit and vicinity about 
eight months. 
Q. That may be. A. In that time I was physician to in- 
stitutions where there were women as well as men. 
Q. Be it so. But you did not reside in the institution, and 
you hadn’t any care except to go in backwards and forwards? 
A. No, sir ; I did not reside in any institution. 
Q. You were called in only two or three hours a day? A- 
I made my visits. 
Q. Now, before that, all your experience had been in army 
hospitals? A. Yes, sir; I never was a resident. 
Q. Now, had you, at any time, had any considerable ex- 
perience in midwifery? A. I had had a good deal; yes, sir. I 
had had more of that practice, in proportion, than most phy- 
sicians have. I had it before I came to Tewksbury. There was 
a good deal of it in the county institution at Detroit. 
Q. How many people were in that county institution? A. 
There were about 600. 
Q. That was a pauper institution, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you think that the change from one cow’s milk to an- 2240 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
other had anything to do with the sickness of that child that 
Mr. and Mrs. Carver brought there? A. I don’t recollect the 
particular case to which you refer. 
Q. You were asked about it by Mr. Brown. A. I told him 
I did not remember the case. 
Q. Haven’t you testified that in the foundling hospital you 
changed cows whenever the farmer desired to change them ? A. 
Yes, sir; we did change cows. , 
Q. Well, if changing the cow’s milk, from one cow’s milk to 
another cow’s milk, will sicken infants and give them the 
diarrhoea, why did you have the cows changed? A. Well, the 
milk of the cow itself changes as it becomes more mature, and 
if you are feeding young infants you should have the milk of a 
cow that has not been milked too long a time. 
Q. IIow long would you call a long time? A. I have 
alwa}rs thought that after a cow had been milked from three to 
five months, it was just as well to change and have a fresh new- 
milch cow. It would depend somewhat on the season. 
Q. Would giving narcotics produce nausea and vomiting — 
the continued giving of narcotics to infants? A. I think we 
never gave narcotics continuously to children. 
Q. I ask you, as a physician, whether you think the continu- 
ous use by infants of narcotics would not produce nausea, 
vomiting and inability to retain food on the stomach? A. 1 
should not think that would be the prominent symptom that 
would result from the use of narcotics. It would produce ill- 
health ; and ill-health in an infant is attended with indigestion. 
Ultimately it would have that effect, but I don’t think the 
primary effect of a narcotic would be that. It would cause a 
derangement of health. 
Q. Do you know whether those infants had narcotics or not 
— those foundlings? A. The nurses had — 
Q. I don’t ask what the nurses had ; most of them had in- 
fants. But this is it: I am upon the question of what the 
infants had. A. I believe that — 
Q. No. Do you know whether those nurses, for any reason, 
in order to escape trouble, to keep the infants quiet, gave them 
narcotics or not? A. I don’t think they did. 
Q. I don’t ask what you think. Do you know whether they 
did or not? A. It would be impossible to know positively. 
Q. Very well; then that is your answer. Then you don’t 
know a thing if it is impossible to know, I take it — a thing 1883.] 
HOUSE*—No. 300. 
2241 
that is impossible. Now, then, didn’t they have narcotics where 
the3’ could get at them whenever they chose? A. Sometimes, 
when they were ordered. 
Q. Wasn’t there a bottle there where they could get at it any 
time they wanted it — a bottle of preparation of morphine and 
a bottle of preparation of paregoric; some of the preparations 
of opium. Wasn’t there a bottle there? Stick to that, now. 
A. There was no bottle known in that waj^. 
Q. Whether it was known in that way I don’t care; was 
there a bottle there? A. It would depend altogether on the 
prescription of the attending physician ; on what he wanted to 
do for any particular child. 
Q. But wasn’t there? We have got it from one physician. 
I want to see if 3’ou know anything about it. Do you know 
whether there was or not a bottle in the closet of that room that 
contained a preparation of opium or morphine ? A. 1 know 
that there was at some time. I don’t know whether there was 
all the time. It would depend on the doctor. 
Q. I know ; because if it was pretty freely used you would 
be frequently out of it, as you were of other things. Now, 
wasn’t there, as a general thing, such a bottle? A. It is so 
long since — I think they have a closet there with medicines, 
and it would be very likely that there might be such a bottle 
there. 
Q. And did these nurses, supervisors or attendants, what- 
ever they are, have access to this closet? A. There was only 
one person, and that was the person that had the care of the 
whole building, the whole place. 
Q. You don’t mean the whole building. You mean the whole 
room, the whole ward? A. Yes; the whole ward where the 
children were. 
Q. That was the nurse? A. That would be the nurse in 
charge. 
Q. That would be the nurse in charge. She would have full 
access to it. Now, is it not common — outside of Tewksbury, 
is it not common practice for not-too-well-instructed mothers to 
give this preparation to their children to quiet them, to keep 
them quiet? I don’t think, when they are warned against it by 
a physician, that they are likely to do it. 
Q. I am not asking if they do it when they are warned 
against it; but is not that the custom? A. Quite a custom. 
Q. And don’t the physicians, whenever they hear of it, warn 2242 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
them against it on account of the dangers? A. On account of 
the dangers ; yes, sir. 
Q. Uninstructed persons. Now, then, if these children — 
were these children ver}r quiet, these foundlings? A. Some- 
times they would cry and sometimes they would not, like other 
babies. 
Q. I am glad to find something they were like other babies 
in; I thought the}' were different in everything. A. They 
would cry. 
Q. Yes, some of them had vitality enough to cry like other 
babies; they were not all dead. Now, then, will you swear 
that you never saw evidence in the appearance of the children 
that any of those children had any narcotic administered to 
them? A. Contrary to orders? I don’t remember an}' case 
where they had narcotics given to them contrary to orders. 
There lieve been instances where we have prescribed narcotics 
to children, and they have been under the influence from that. 
Q. Then were narcotics frequently prescribed for them? 
A. I don’t think they were. 
Q. Very well, then. Was not there a case — did not many 
of these children die vomiting? A. No, sir; that is not my 
remembrance of them — that they died vomiting. 
Q. Did they die of what you put down as inanition ? A. 
When they died of what wre call inanition or marasmus, that 
was not the characteristic symptom. If they died vomiting, we 
should put it down cholera infantum. 
Q. Well, cholera infantum makes a very large place in your 
book, does it not? A. In the summer Ave lost a good many 
from cholera infantum. 
Q. Well, all those foundlings died under your hands, at any 
rate? A. That was my misfortune. 
Q. I don’t ask w hether it was your misfortune, but whether 
it was the fact. Indiscriminately, well or sick when they came, 
death was their poi’tion, was it not? A. Not indiscriminately; 
there were some that lived. 
Q. What? A. There were some that lived. 
Q. IIow long? Did any of them finally live to be sent out 
of that place, — the foundlings? A. 1 know one that is alWe 
nowr, or was a little while ago. 
Q. You know one that is alive now. Then for aught there 
was of saving life by bringing up the children of the State, it 
might just as well, — somebody might just as well have per- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2243 
formed craniotomy on them with a file as to send them there, 
might they not? A. The mortality was large. 
Q. The mortality was large? It was without exception! 
Now, what was the use of taking those children up there ail to 
be killed, all to die, for a series of years, for almost a quarter 
of a century? A. That is the reason why we have adopted 
the present system. 
Q. Precisely so. A. The fault was in the system. 
Q. The fault was in the system; very well. Now, found- 
lings do live in other institutions, don’t they? A. I have no 
evidence of it, when they are taken to institutions. 
Q. You have no evidence of it. Very well, then I won’t 
trouble you. A. Under those conditions. 
Q. Pardon me; under what conditions? A. Under one 
year of age, being in a large institution, and not receiving any 
mother’s milk. 
Q. Now, I am coming right to that. Now, it is to the 
credit of your institution that children that have been born there 
usually survive; showing that there is no occasion — A. 
That is so always ; that the children born there usually sur- 
vive. 
Q. I understand that lately they live there to a larger ex- 
tent. We won’t discuss that. So that it is not anything in the 
place that children can’t live there. Now, I suppose that 
foundling mothers are about on an average with other babies’ 
mothers, aren’t they, in constitution, so far as you know? A. 
Of course if they are foundlings we don’t know who their 
mothers are. 
Q. I know ; but is there anything- that you know of why 
they should not be of ordinarily good constitution? A. Of 
course they have been living dissolute lives ; that is all. 
Q. Now, then, you had about eighteen, — from ten to eigh- 
teen foundlings there at a time, and they were all dying, that 
average a week. You had about fifteen deliveries there a week? 
A. Fifteen? 
Q. Yes; on average. A. Fifteen deliveries a week? 
Q. A week or a month ; I don’t remember. A. No, sir; 
we never averaged more than two a week, — a little more than 
two a week, but not much more. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we will say two a week. 
Mr. Learnard. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask if the 
Governor is likely to get through with the witness to-day. 2244 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. I should think not; because I must have some 
time to look at the books. 
Mr. Learnard. We have been here three hours, and I think 
it is time to adjourn. 
Gov. Butler. I want to finish this matter. It will take but 
two or three minutes if he will answer directly. 
Q. And those women would have milk for children for how 
long, if the}r are healthy? A. You are not speaking of found- 
ling children? 
Q. Oh, no, no. A. Those born in the institution? Most 
of the women go out after the child has reached a sufficient age 
to justify it. 
Q. What age is that? A. About a month. We don’t like 
to have them go under a month. 
Q. Well, from a month — A. Until they find it convenient 
to go. A great many go very soon after that. 
Q. Now, what I want to ask you is this : if there were not 
employed in the laundry, in the sewing-room, and in the kitchen, 
a large number of those mothers during the time these found- 
lings were there — the mothers of children born there? A. 
There were ; yes, sir. 
Q. They were? A. Yes, sir. 
f Q. And there were many of these mothers who had fine 
breasts of milk, I have no doubt? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, why could not those foundlings have had 
some of these women, instead of their being laundresses, for 
wet nurses, — with a decent administration ? A. AVell, I never 
could bring it about. 
Q. AYell, but why not? They could be sent into the laun- 
dry to scrub, and into the kitchen to cook. A. Occasionally 
we would induce a woman to nurse one of these babies, but it 
was very rare that we could do it. 
Q. Did you ever offer to pay them anything? A. No, sir; 
I had no means to do it. 
Q. Pardon me; no means? This was the time before the 
law was changed, my man ; when you had the right to order 
anything that was necessary. You could have appointed every 
one of them on a salary of $300 a year if you had chosen, just 
as you appointed that McKinnon woman from Nova Scotia. 
Now, why didn’t you do it? A. If I had the power to do 
that, I hadn’t any money. 
Q. Pardon me ; you had the right to make requisitions on 1888. ’! 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2245 
the superintendent, to appoint every one of them nurses, and to 
fix their salaries. Why didn’t you do it? A. That is, subject 
to the approval of the trustees. 
Q. Well, I know. A. Well, I proposed to do it. 
Q. That is what 1 want to get at. I want to get at some- 
body who is responsible for the death of these children, for the 
murder of these children! Because we all agree if these 
mothers had nursed them they would have lived. Did you ask 
the trustees to allow you to appoint these wet nurses at a 
fair pay, and they refused it? Because, if they did, we will try 
them in another court. Did you ask them to approve of your 
appointments ? 
Mr. Brown. Let him answer the question. 
Gov. Butler. They didn’t have to appoint; they had to ap- 
pi’ove, or disapprove, of your appointments. 
The Witness. 1 know 1 often suggested it, and I know that 
I could not bring it about. 
Q. To whom did }Tou suggest it? A. I should say I sug- 
gested it to the superintendent and to the trustees. 
Q. Which trustee was it to whom you said : 1 want to ap- 
point some of these women wet nurses, so as to save the lives 
of these foundlings, and they said they would not do it? I 
want to know who did it, because 1 want to place the responsi- 
bility where it belongs, if it does belong to them. Because, 
here were children of the State by the hundred, and here were 
breasts of milk all around them, in the laundries, in the cook- 
houses, who for a dollar a da}T, or week, would have been glad 
to have given of the surplus milk more than their infants could 
eat, and then when their infants died would have been glad to 
be relieved of the milk for months, or for weeks. Now, why 
was it not done? Who interfered? That is what I want to 
know. You made the requisition ; who interfered ? A. I have 
no written record of any written requisition, but I am veiy sure 
that it often occurred to me, and I often spoke of it. 
Q. It was 3Tour duty to make requisition, if you wanted it, 
was it not, in those days ? A. That was a question of general 
management, implying an entire change of the general manage- 
ment and polic}r of the institution. 
Q. What change of policy of the institution was it to a wet- 
nurse when a wet-nurse was needed, and a dry one when a dry 
one was needed? A. Well, I know that they never employed 
inmates at all; at least they didn’t while I was there. 2246 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I know the}' didn’t, but you had that in charge. Why 
didn’t you do it? A. I could not do anything without the 
approval of the trustees. 
Q. Did you put it to them that you wanted to do it? A. I 
am very sure I did. 
Q. Will you swear you did, so that when hereafter if I want 
you to swear to fix it on them you won’t dodge back from it? 
Will you swear you did? And if so, whom? A. I cannot 
swear to whom I spoke, for I spoke about it a great many times. 
Q. I know. But can you swear that you spoke to any one 
of the trustees, and which one? A. I cannot. I don’t recol- 
lect any instance of speaking to any particular one. 
Q. Did you ever speak to them in the board? A. I 
don’t — 
Q. What? A. I don’t remember any particular — 
Q. Will you swear you ever spoke about it in the board at 
any time, without any’ particular? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. About that subject, and said you wanted to employ 
those women as wet nurses, and they said you should not? A. 
I feel very confident that I brought the subject to them. 
Q. Did they say you should not do it? A. The}' must 
have said so, because they" did not do it. 
Q. T don’t know that. Don’t leave it as a matter of argu- 
ment. Did you ask them for leave to hire those wet nurses ; 
just the ones these poor foundling children needed, and did 
theyT sayT you shall not, or yrou must not, or you will not, or you 
cannot? Swear to that if you dare. Let us have it. A. I 
say’ the same as I said before, that I have often talked this mat- 
ter over with them and they decided not to do it. They wanted 
to have the children taken awayT altogether, and this system 
adopted that we have adopted ; and we thought it would be 
adopted much earlier than it was. 
Q. Good heavens ! then do you mean to say they refused 
because theyT wanted the children taken awayT: and in order to 
get them taken away they wanted them killed as fast as pos- 
sible? A. Not that. 
Q. Is not that what y ou come to ? Do yTou see where y’ou 
are 'going, Dr. Taylor? Do you mean to swear that these 
trustees refused to let you appoint wet nurses from those women 
there, to nurse those children, because they wanted the chil- 
dren taken away altogether? A. I mean to say’ that their idea 
of a policy’ to be pursued was that — 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2247 
Q. Oh, no; this has not been pursued, this policy, until 
within three years, and I am going back nine years. Was that 
the reason nine years ago? A. I was not there nine years 
ago. 
Q. Pretty near; only lacks a month or two. Now, we had 
better not fence about that. A. I thought you referred to 
something I was there not quite eight years. 
Q. I want to know if for nine years or six years the estab- 
lished policy of the trustees was that they would not let you 
employ these women that had children as wet nurses — they 
allowed them to be employed in the kitchen —when they could 
just as well have been nursing these children and saving their 
lives, because they wanted to get rid of the children ? And 
who is that party? A. Not because the}1- wanted to get rid of 
them ; of course they didn’t want the children to die. 
Q. Then why didn’t they take means to save their lives, if 
they didn’t want them to die? A. I have no record — 
Q. You and I both agree. Let us see where we are. You 
and I both agree, and everybody agrees, that if a child can have 
some nurse’s milk, some mother’s milk, and some cow’s milk, it 
gives them a very great chance of life. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You and I,—everybody agrees to that. Now, here were 
twelve, fifteen or twenty women with fresh breasts of milk. 
Some of their children died, as, of course, they always do. And 
here were all these foundlings, which might have been fed from 
this fountain of nature, which would have saved their lives. And 
instead of doing that they were sent scrubbing and washing ; 
and the reason was that when you wanted them to do this the 
trustees had a policy against it. Is that so? A. That is what 
I understood by it. 
Q. That is what you understood ; but you made no requisi- 
tion? A. No, sir; I never made any requisition in writing. 
Gov. Butler. That is as far as 1 can go now, Mr. Chair- 
man. 
Adjourned to meet on Friday, June 15, at 9.30 a. m. CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
2248 
FORTY-EIGHTH HEARING. 
Friday, June 15. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a. m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of William H. Lathrop (continued). 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler resumed. 
Q. Dr. Lathrop, did you give Mr. and Mrs. Dudley’a recom- 
mendation when they left? A. I did, sir. 
Q. Did you think they deserved it? A. 1 think they de- 
served just such a one as I gave them. 
Q. What? A. I did, sir. 
Q. Was there anything said to you by the Marshes about 
giving them these recommendations before or after? A. I 
don’t remember definitely, except that Mr. Marsh thought it 
would have been better not to have given it. 
Q. What reason did he give? You know and I know. A. 
I don’t remember now just the reason, except that he said — 
Q. Pardon me; if you don’t remember it, don’t pretend to 
tell it; if you do remember it, tell it. 
Mr. Brown. He don’t remember, except — 
The Witness. In general terms he expressed dissatisfaction. 
Q. Pardon me; didn’t he say that you ought not to have 
given it, because now, going away with a recommendation, they 
could tell things about the institution — I am now giving sub- 
stance, not words—and if it hadn’t been given them, if they’ did 
tell anything, they would have been simply discharged people? 
A. I don’t remember any such thing as that being stated to 
me. 
Q. Said in your hearing? A. No, sir; I don’t think that 
was ever said in my hearing—anything about their subsequently 
making complaints against the institution. 
Q. Sure about that? Have you ever said so? A. There 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2249 
may have been a conversation of that character since the inves- 
tigation commenced. 
Q. I am not now upon the question whether it was before or 
since. A. Since the investigation commenced that remark has 
been made to me by a good many. 
Q. I didn’t ask about the rest, but I will now. I wanted to 
fix it on the Marshes fh’st. Who else ? A. I don’t remember 
any names, except the general remark. 
Q. I want to know if the Marshes, either of them, said it. 
A. He may have made that remark to me. 
Q. That 3Tou ought not to give him a recommendation, be- 
cause otherwise they would have been discharged people with- 
out any recommendation. A. I don’t remember his using that 
language at all, except his making the remark that it was an un- 
fortunate circumstance that I had given them a recommenda- 
tion. 
Q. Why unfortunate? A. Because they could now use it 
in this way. 
Q. Because they could now use it in this way to defend their 
character when attacked. Now, who else has been making that 
sort of talk? A. I don't remember any person. 
Q. Why do you say generally, then? A. Because I know 
that other people have used that. 
Give me a name. A. I cannot do so. 
Q. Not one? It is only a short time ; your memory is very 
short. Now, then, did you give one to Mr. and Mrs. Barker? 
A. I don’t remember whether I did or not. I don’t l’emember 
giving them any recommendation. I don’t remember their ask- 
ing me for any. 
Q. Well, now, have you ever said in substance this : that 
since Mr. and Mrs. Dudley left, the insane department had been 
running down in the way it is kept, or any portion of it? A. 
I don’t think I have said that. 
Q. What? A. I don’t think I have said that. 
Q. Do you know whether 3*011 have said it? A. I don’t 
remember ever having made airy such remark. 
Q. Will 3'ou swear didn’t? A. Well, I don’t remem- 
ber that I have ever had an3r such idea, — ever had an3T such 
thought. 
Q. I don’t ask 3rour idea. Will you swear you didn’t say 
that — in substance? A. It is a ver3r difficult thing to sa3r 3x111 
didn’t say a thing in the course of five or six years time. 2250 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Not at all. A. I can swear I don’t remember ever to 
have entertained any such thought. 
Q. Now, did you find anyfault with Mr. Dudley when there? 
A. I don’t remember that I did. 
Q. Find any fault with Mrs. Dudley when there ? A. I 
don’t remember that I did. 
Q. Did you find an}’ fault with Mr. Barker while there? A. 
I don’t remember of any. 
Q. Did you find any fault with Mrs. Barker while there? 
A. I don’t remember any. 
Q. Very well. Now, when Mr. Dudley went into the charge 
of that department, how long had that woman been confined up 
in that place in the attic ? A. Without notes it would be im- 
possible for me to state that. 
Q. Have you got any notes? A. No, sir; none of those 
confinements. 
Q. Let us see, now, about that. Are you sure about that — 
that you haven’t any notes? A. If there are any, I don't 
know anything about them. 
Q. Did you ever have any? A. I don’t remember that I 
ever made any note about that. 
Q. Now, did you make any notes about other people being 
confined? A. It was not my habit to make notes with refer- 
ence to the part of the asylum where the inmates were placed. 
Q. With reference to the part of the asylum where the in- 
mates were placed; didn’t you? Did you make any notes of 
the fact of their imprisonment on any book or record? A. 
All asylum patients are imprisoned; that is, they are under 
restraint. 
Q. What? A. They are all under restraint — all the 
asylum patients. They are under the restraint of a keeper. 
Q. I don’t ask whether the asylum patients are under re- 
straint or anything else. I ask whether you, as resident phy- 
sician in charge of these insane people, made an}’ record, in any 
way, of their imprisonment? A. I consider all insane patients 
in imprisonment, if you may use that expression, when they are 
in an asylum. I didn’t, as I say — 
Q. Is that the way you understand my question, on your 
oath, sir? A. I answered the question as I understood it in 
the first place ; that I didn’t make any record. 
Q. Do you understand my question was whether or not you 
made any notes about their being there? Now, see where we 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2251 
are. I asked you first about this woman put up stairs there in 
a hole. She being kept there, I asked you if you had an}r note 
about it, and you didn’t remember, — didn’t have airy. A. T 
said it was not my custom — 
Q. Very well. Then I asked you if you made any notes 
about any of the insane people that were imprisoned there, and 
you told me it was not the custom to make them about all, 
because you considered them all under imprisonment. Did you 
understand that that was a proper answer to my question — on 
your oath? A. Because I had previously answered, as I 
thought, the question in another way. 
Q. Then you thought it was right to answer it that way 
because you had previously answered it wrough' before? A. 
No. sir; because I thought I had answered it rightly before. 
Q. Now answer. There were people restrained there, put 
up in prison, put up in cells or apartments, or whatever you call 
it. Now did }'ou make any memorandum or record of that 
imprisonment? Now you understand: answer. A. I made 
no record of the fact who was in any particular room. 
Q. I did not ask who was in any particular room. I ask 
you again : when there were persons put in imprisonment, con- 
finement, for good or bad reasons — I am not upon that now — 
was there any record made by you about that imprisonment or 
confinement? Answer that question. A. I have answered it. 
I made no record. 
Gov. Butler. How long I have been getting that little bit 
of truth. 
The Witness. I answered that before. 
Q. Now, then, whose duty was it, if it was not yours, to 
make any such record? A. I kept no record. I don’t know 
that it was anybody’s duty. 
Q. Then it was not done. Then that thing had been car- 
ried on ever since 1876, when you were there, — people being 
put in confinement and no record made of how long were 
confined? A. If people are confined as punishment, those 
that are not insane, there is a record kept of that. 
Q. What? A. If people are confined as punishment, 
those that are not insane, there is a record kept of it. 
Q. I didn’t ask about that. Then when a man had his 
senses there was a record kept; when one hadn’t his senses, 
and was imprisoned, there wasn’t any; was that it? A. I [Apr. 
2252 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
don’t think the word imprisonment should be used in reference 
to insane. 
Q. But when one is shut up in a cell with nothing in it, that 
is imprisonment, is it not? It may be justifiable imprisonment. 
All the people in the State prison are imprisoned, but that is 
justifiable imprisonment? A. We have certain facilities for 
caring for them, and we use those to the best of our judgment. 
Q. And one of those facilities is to shut them up in solitary 
confinement, is it not? A. They are put into a room where 
they can be cared for best. The}' would not appreciate any- 
thing better. 
Q. No record of that. Now, then, when, on your oath, 
were you in that room upstairs before Mr. Dudley came there? 
A. I made no record of my own personal visits, personally. 
Q. I have heard all about your record. You didn’t have 
any. Now, when were you in that room before Mr. Dudley 
came there? A. I cannot remember that. 
Q. Will you swear that you were there within a week — up 
in that room? A. It is impossible for me to say anything 
about that, because I don’t remember. 
Q. Will you swear within a month — that you were there 
within a month? A It is going back several years, and I 
could not give positive evidence about it. 
Q. Then you would not undertake to contradict anybody by 
your evidence, who swore about what you did, because you can- 
not recollect? A. I have my own opinion about it, but I 
should not undertake to swear about it at all. 
Q. Very well. Now, then, how do you know, if you don’t 
know that you were there for a month, that the woman was not 
starving, as Mr. Dudley swears she was? A. I think I was 
there. 1 think the case was properly examined. 
Q. Of course you think so. IIowr can you swear that she 
was not starving if you cannot swear that you had seen her 
within a month? A. You might say the same thing of the 
whole three hundred. 
Q. I have no doubt it was the same with the majority, but 
that is not the question. A. I cannot remember an individual 
case. 
Q. Here was a woman confined up in this cell, you think 
because she would not keep her clothes on, or for some purpose 
of that sort; she was a disgusting object; she was subject to 
care and treatment, if there ever was a woman on earth who 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2253 
was,— and you cannot tell us about it. Now, then, how soon 
after Mr. Dudley came there before she was downstairs? A. I 
cannot say definitely. 
Q. Do you mean to say that she was not emaciated when 
she came downstairs ? I want to see if your memory remem- 
bers just that and nothing else. A. I have a distinct recollec- 
tion of the woman, having seen her repeatedly, the same as I 
remember a great many patients in the institution ; that is all. 
I cannot remember the dates when I saw her. I cannot remem- 
ber how she looked on any particular date. 
Q. Very well. Then you won’t swear that when she first 
came down stairs she was not emaciated, and that within a few 
weeks afterwards she was not fatted up ? A. I don’t remember 
ever to have seen her emaciated at all. 
Q. What do you say? A. I don’t remember ever seeing 
her when she was emaciated. I cannot swear definitely about 
individual cases that I don’t remember about. 
Q. Very well. Then you don’t remember. We will leave 
that. Now, was that room filthy whenever you were in it? A. 
I have been in that room when patients had made it — when 
the}’ had done what would make it filth}’ for the time being. 
Q. Can you say how long, on vour oath, it remained filthy, 
from your memory ? A. I have every reason to believe — 
Q. I don’t ask your reasons to believe. That depended up- 
on the brutality of one of those attendants. Now, then, I want 
your knowledge, not your conscience. A. That is what I am 
saying, on my conscience. 
Q. I understand — not on your belief, but on your knowl- 
edge. A. How can I have definite knowledge about cleaning 
up a room, unless some — 
Q. You don’t seem to have any definite knowledge about 
cleaning up any room. Didn’t you tell us when we were last 
together that you didn’t think it was your duty to look into the 
cleanliness of all these rooms? A. I said, in a general way, 
it was my duty to regard the hygiene of the establishment. 
Q. I understand that. But didn’t you say expressly that 
these chronic insane patients were in charge of the superinten- 
dent, as you believed, and you didn’t know that you had any 
duty about them as to their cleanliness? A. The ordinary 
cleanliness and care was under his charge. 
Q. Then the extraordinary uncleanliness was as much under 
his care, I suppose, was it not? A. It was somethirg that I 2254 
CHAK1TABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
considered proper for me to note, and to speak about to tlie 
officers. 
Q. Where did you note it? Now, sir, is it not in institu- 
tions the duty of the resident physician to make notes of the 
condition of his patients in a book kept for that purpose? A. 
I have made notes. 
Q. I didn’t ask you that, sir. A. It is ; yes, sir. 
Q. We will come to that by and by. Will you answer my 
question? The difficulty is that you answer everything else but 
my question. My question is, whether, as you understand the 
duty of a resident physician, it is not the duty of the resident 
physician to keep notes of the condition of his patients. A. 
It is ; yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. It is. 
Q. Now, sir, did you keep such notes? A. I did when 
they went to the hospital. 
Q. Did you anywhere else? A. I have some few notes, 
but not many. 
Q. Why have few, if not all? A. Cases where they were 
under special treatment in the hospital; when they required 
treatment they were removed to the hospital. 
Q. Then your only notes are of treatment, meaning by 
treatment, medical treatment? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you any notes of any other condition? A. We 
have the general register which indicates their — 
Q. What general register, the register of the institution? 
A. Yes, sir ; the register of the insane. 
Q. The register of the insane. I am asking about your 
notes. A. My notes were confined to their treatment when 
they were in llie hospital, and their treatment in the hospital. 
Q. Wholly? A. I won’t sav wholly. We had examina- 
tion made of the insane. 
Q. When did you have that made? A. When they came 
in. We had a general examination made of them in 1877. 
Q. Any after that? A. And we had — 
Q. Stop a minute. An}’ after that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When was the next general examination ? A. I was 
going on to say that that was an examination made by Dr. 
Putney, who was specially interested in thoracic diseases. 
He made that examination because he was specialty interested 
in it. 
Q. Did you make it? A. No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2255 
Q. Then wh}7 clo you sa}7 “we”? A. You asked about 
notes. 
Q. Notes that you made ; not that Dr. Putney made. You 
know well enough,jou are not so stupid— A. They were 
made under my direction. 
Q. Were you there? That is, did you examine the pa- 
tients? Didn’t you just say you didn’t? A. No, sir; I was 
not there. 
Q. Then how were they made under your direction? A. 1 
mean that I was — 
Q. You were in the institution ? A. I was resident physi- 
cian, and I requested him to make them. 
Q. What? A. I was resident physician, and I requested 
him to make them. 
Q. And he made that? Any made since 1877, and who 
made it? A. I don’t remember of any of which notes have 
been taken. 
Q. No examination of which notes have been taken since 
1877, by you or anybody else? Now, then, will you tell me 
whether there is anything to show the condition, —any record 
to show the condition of those insane after they went in there 
down to the first of last January, in that institution ? A. When 
they were visited, and when they seemed to be in need — 
Q. “When they were visited,” — what do you mean by 
that? A. I mean that they were inspected by the physicians. 
Q. “Inspected,” — what do you mean by that? A. I 
mean that I visited them, or some other physician visited them, 
and if they were found to be sick, or to need — or to be run 
down in health so to need treatment, they were transferred to the 
hospital — 
Q. We have heard that a dozen times, sir. A. — Then notes 
were always taken. 
Q. Won’t you show me those notes, sir? A. They are 
mixed up with the notes of the hospital cases. 
Q. Any outside of hospital cases? Won’t you show me 
those notes of the hospital cases? A. There is a hospital 
record of the sick insane. 
Q. Where are they ? A. That is downstairs. Register of 
sick insane, it is called. 
Gov. Butler. Now, we will see what there is in that. [To 
Mr. Innis.] Bring up all of Dr. Lathrop’s books ; that is, all 
the medical books. While he is gone 1 will go to another thing. 2256 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did you know Charlotte Anderson. A. I did, sir. 
Q. She was a Swedish girl, wasn’t she? A. Yes, sir; en- 
tered that way. I presume so. 
Q. And was employed about the house, was she? A. In 
the asylum. 
Q. You call this in the house, every now and then, do you 
not? She was only employed in the insane asylum. A. She 
was in the insane asylum — 
Q. Was she employed elsewhere? A. — All the time, except 
when she went to the foundling hospital with her child. 
Q. What was she employed in doing in the insane asylum ? 
A. General housework. 
Q. In the cooking department? A. There is no cooking 
done in the asylum. 
Q. In washing dishes? A. She did that part of the time. 
Q. What else? A. I don’t remember anything special that 
she did, except in a general way to help. 
Q. She was harmless? A. She was most of the time. 
Q. I mean up to the time she had her child ? A. As near 
as I remember. 
Q. You don’t remember anything up to that time ; she was 
suffered to go about? A. She was. 
Q. Her phase of insanity was melancholy, was it not? A. 
When she was — 
Q. When she was brought there? A. In a general way. 
She was not very melancholy, but it would be called that rather 
than anything else. 
Q. Quiet and melancholy. Very well. Now, then, how 
long after she got there — how long had she been there before 
she was got with child by somebody? A. I should say it was 
about a year. 
Q. About a year after. Up to that time she had behaved 
quiet and well? A. As far as I remember. 
Q. As far as you know. Then she was got with child. 
When did she become excited and furious; before her delivery ? 
A. About that time, she did. 
Q. Could she speak English? A. Not very well; I think 
she could make herself understood. 
Q. It was with difficulty, was it not? A. I think so ; yes 
sir. 
Q. She had difficulty in making herself understood and she 
became very violent? A. She did ; yes, sir, 1883 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2257 
Q. You attended upon lier? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, did she undertake to show you what the mat- 
ter was in any way? A. Well, it was evident to me what the 
matter was. 
Q. I know. But did she undertake to tell you what she un- 
derstood the matter was ? A. She did ; yes, sir. 
Q. Did she undertake to show you by actions? A. She 
did; yes, sir. 
Q. And at those times was she furious and excited ? A. 
She was ; so much so that she was in a private room, but not 
enough to be at all dangerous to any one that was in there at 
the same time. 
Q. She would not trjr to kill anybody else ? A. She would 
not try to strike an}’body ; she was sufficiently excited to make 
it desirable that she should be private. 
Q. She was rather excited against herself than anybody 
else? A. It was the general condition of excitement of the 
mind. 
Q. Excitement of the mind, excitement of action, and some 
very disgusting action, was it not? A. Yes, sir ; it was. 
Q. Very disgusting and painful. Well, she was delivered 
of her child? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How soon did she die after it? A. Ten months. 
Q. How long did the child live ? A. It lived eight or nine 
months — nine months. 
Q. When was this? A. I have a note of that case. [Re- 
ferring to a memorandum,] She died in. 1877, I am quite 
sure. 
Q. She died in 1877. What did she die of? A. Con- 
sumption. 
Q. After delivery was she docile and gentle? A. She was 
most of the time. 
Q. Nursed her child? A. Yes, sir; for a good portion of 
the time she did. 
Q. And was healthy at that time, immediately after child- 
birth? A. Immediately afterwards she had a sickness. She 
was not very well for about a month or so. 
Q. What? A. For about a month or so she was not well. 
Q. And after that got well? A. After that she got well 
and went down to the foundling hospital with her child. 
Q. And was she there employed as a wet nurse or employed 2258 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
herself as a wet nurse ? A. She took care — she nursed her 
own child. 
Q. Nurse any other? A. I don’t remember that she did. 
Q. Do you know whether she did or not? A. I would not 
say about that. 
Q. Didn’t she take the children, wouldn’t she take them up 
and nurse them? A. I don’t remember that circumstance. 
Q. You don’t remember about that. How long did the child 
live? A. The child died about two weeks before she did. 
Q. In her use of language could she do an}' more than tell 
about common things, such as bread, and knife, and fork, and 
such things? A. My recollection of her language is not very 
distinct, but I remember that it was imperfect. 
[The books sent for were produced.] 
Q. Now, won’t you pick out that book which you say is the 
register of the insane? A. The one at the bottom is the 
register of the sick insane. 
Q. AYell, let us see what history of them was kept. Let us 
go to the case of Charlotte Anderson ; she was sick and insane 
both, evidently? A. This is simply a register of those that 
went to the hospital and when they came out — those that were 
sick enough. It simply states the fact. 
Q. Well, let us take Charlotte Anderson’s case and see what 
she got? A. [Pointing out an entry on the register.] There 
is the entry, there. I will find the other here. [The book of 
obstetric cases.] 
Q. I don’t want that, sir, at present, until I ask about this. 
A. That is simply the register of those who went to the 
hospital. 
Q. I want now to find the general register. The general 
register would show that Charlotte Anderson in 1877 had 
phthisis; was admitted March 9, 1877, to the hospital, for 
the phthisis; discharged from the hospital May 17; result, 
June third — I should say — died. Then there was no registry 
of this girl in the general register of the hospital, what has hap- 
pened to her, except that she went into the hospital on the 
seventeenth of March of phthisis, and died on the third of 
June? A. That was the fact about the hospital register, about 
the sick. Then we had our obstetric register, sir. 
Q. Your what? A. Register of births. 
Q. Well, the birth is not- exactly what is complained of. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2259 
Didn’t she go into the hospital sick before the third of March ? 
A. She was under treatment as an obstetric patient. 
Q. As what? A. As an obstetric patient — a lying-in 
patient; we didn’t treat those in this hospital. 
Q. I know you didn’t treat them in this hospital. And this 
is all the record there is of that girl, although she was one of 
the sick insane. And that will apply to all these. Now, is 
this any record of the condition and treatment of these people ? 
A. That is in the other book. 
Q. Very well; show me in the other book where it was kept. 
Let me look at it. 
Mr. Brown. You saw that record in the testimony of Dr. 
Marston. 
[The witness pointed out the record referred to in the book 
of obstetric cases.] 
Q. Did you keep this? A. Sometimes I kept it; it de- 
pends on who was attending the patient. 
Q. Well, now, here is another record: “Charlotte Ander- 
son, thirty*, insane, was delivered of a child in August, 1876 ; 
after a very dangerous and long puerperal sickness, was dis- 
charged well, Oct. 16, same }rear; was then in good health. 
Went with child to No. 20,” — that is the foundling hospital — 
“ where she remained as assistant until Feb., 1877,” — that is, 
from Oct. 16, 1876, — “ when, becoming violent, she was re- 
moved to the asylum, her child being carried to her to nurse for 
a short time and then weaned. On May 13, she was admitted 
to the hospital, in a state of high fever ; face flushed, complains 
of no pain, is very thirsty, no cough, slept well.” Then comes 
the record of temperature— 102, 101.6, 102.1, 103, “this 
being the highest temperature attained, it averaging, morning, 
101.2; evening, 102, till June 3, when she died; May 21, 
cough for the first time ; removed to little room, as she is noisy 
in the ward, through active delirium. Sponge baths every da}".” 
Now, then, so far as this record goes, she hadn’t any cough 
until she was in the hospital and some time after. Now, then, 
we have got in this register that Charlotte Anderson was put in 
the hospital for phthisis ; but this record is that she was ad- 
mitted to the hospital in a state of high fever, face flushed, 
complains of no pain, is very thirsty, no cough, slept well. 
That condition of tilings might have been produced arsenical 
poisoning, might it not, for all you know? A. But when we 
made the autopsy — 2260 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. But the an tops}' was not made until long afterward; 
this was made when she went in ? A. It is proper to state the 
circumstances. 
Q. I don’t ask whether it is proper or improper. I say, 
would not all these symptoms when this poor woman went into 
the hospital — couldn’t they have all been accounted for by 
arsenical poisoning? Let me read them: “She was admitted 
in a state of high fever, face flushed, complains of no pain, is 
very thirsty, no cough, slept well; temperature 101, 102, 103, 
etc.” Now, Doctor, as a physician, — because I have had 
some experience in arsenical poisoning as a lawyer, — are not 
all those symptoms, stopping there, entirely consistent with 
arsenical poisoning? A. Arsenic, administered by the 
stomach, generally causes irritability of the stomach. 
Q. I didn’t ask that — about the irritability of the stomach ? 
A. I mean that that is a prominent symptom of arsenical 
poisoning. 
Q. I ask you a simple, plain question: Isn’t every one of 
those symptoms — I will go to some others by and by — con- 
sistent with arsenical poisoning? A. They are consistent with 
a great many conditions of the system. 
Q. Why do you dodge ? I don’t think you gave it. I ask 
you that simple question, not whether those symptoms might 
not be something else, — they are not of consumption, by a long 
chalk, — whether they are consistent with arsenical poisoning? 
A. I should not state the symptoms of arsenical poisoning in 
that way. In a case of arsenical poisoning — 
Q. I don’t ask you that, because I don’t know whether you 
would state it, properly. Now, whether those symptoms are 
consistent with arsenical poisoning? I will read them again, 
sir, so there won’t be any mistake about it: high fever, face 
flushed, complains of no pain, is very thirsty. A. I never 
knew of a case of arsenical poisoning but what had pain. 
Q. Have you ever known one in your life ? Ever had one ? 
A. I have read of a good many. 
Q. Did you ever have one? A. Never had one to treat. 
Q. Then you don’t know anything about it? A. I know 
something by reading. 
Mr. Brown. He might make the same remark with regard to 
you ; you never treated one, and therefore you don’t know any- 
thing about it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2261 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. There is a mistake you have 
made. 
Mr. Brown. You have treated them? 
Gov. Butler. I have treated them. And this is my advan- 
tage : in my case they didn’t die ; they were not treated in 
Tewksbury. The difficult}7 was, I was treating myself. I 
know all about it. * 
Q. Now, sir, did those symptoms describe phthisis at all? 
A. They did not describe phthisis ; no, sir. 
Q. In any form. Looking at the person, then, with those 
symptoms, why should you claim phthisis at that time? A. I 
don’t know that phthisis was claimed at that time. 
Gov. Butler. Very well. Let us see whether it was or not. 
[To Mr. Records.] Find me Charlotte Anderson’s case again. 
The Witness. The diagnosis in that book might have been 
added afterwards. It was not always put in at the time the 
person was admitted. 
Q. Then the records of the diseases of the insane were not 
put down when they were put into the hospital? A. It is so 
with all the cases if they are doubtful. 
Gov. Butler. See where you are, Doctor. 
The Witness. I know where I am. 
Gov. Butler. 1 asked you if there was a record kept of 
the diseases of the insane, and you said yes; I asked you 
where, and you said in the register ; I got the register, and here 
it is, Charlotte Anderson — 
The Witness. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. There is no statement, Governor, as to the 
time or stage of the disease when that record is made. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; that is what you don’t know, be- 
cause you haven’t got it, and I have. Now, don’t undertake to 
tell what you don’t know, because that would take a great 
while. “ Charlotte Anderson, phthisis, May 13, died June 3, 
discharged by death the third of June.” Now, then, let us see ; 
that is the record of her being carried into the hospital. 
The Witness. It is the record of her death, too. 
Q. Now, then, on May 13 she was admitted to the hospital, 
Not a word about phthisis, or anything that describes phthisis. 
She never had it. She didn’t even have a cough. She coughed 
for the first time May 21st, and was admitted oa the 13th of 
May. She had been there a week. Now, there is a record of 
what she was — if it is a true record — that she was admitted 2262 
charitable institutions. 
[Apr. 
on the 13th of May, with consumption. The record in the book 
is that she hadn’t consumption at that time at all. No record ; 
no thought of it. because she was in a state of high fever. A. 
The record indicates that her disease had commenced, but it 
hadn’t progressed sufficiently far to be detected by the physician 
so as to make his diagnosis. 
Q. That is to say, when she went there on the 13th of MayT 
you could not have told she had consumption? A. There is no 
record that the diagnosis was made — 
Q. I don’t ask that. I know what the record is. Ts there 
anything to show that she had consumption the day she was ad- 
mitted? A. The history of the case shows that she must have 
had it. 
Q. I don’t care whether it shows she must have had it. Will 
you answer my question. Is there anything in the case on the 
13th of May’ that showed she had consumption? A. Not posi- 
tively ; no, sir. 
Q. Positively or approximately — anything about consump- 
tion there on the 13th day of May? A. No, sir; except the 
fever. 
Q. Very well. Then afterwards you found she had consump- 
tion— after she died. If there was nothing to show that she 
had consumption on the 13th of May, why was she recorded as 
having been put into the hospital with consumption on that day? 
Now we have got down to it. A. When a case was obscure in 
any respect, the place for the diagnosis was left blank until it 
developed in such a way as to make it more positive. 
Q. That is, the place for what she was sent to the hospital 
for was left blank in the record, when you didn’t know enough 
to know what the matter was? A. In a great many’ cases we 
don’t. 
Q. You know when a person has the consumption, don’t 
you ? A. Sometimes you do and sometimes you do not. 
Mr. Brown. The testimony is that that record was not made 
until after June 3d. The testimony of Dr. Marston, on page 
1713. 
Gov. Butler. I agree. It was written out from his notes. 
This was a day by day record, extended oil this book. 
Q. When you put her in the hospital she had high fever, 
and you put her in because she had consumption. She had had 
a very violent puerperal fever before. Had she any friends? 
A. I cannot say about that. 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2263 
Q. Don’t you know ? A. I don’t remember that she had 
any. 
Q. Don’t you know that her sister called there to see her ? — 
And, I thank God, is alive. A. I remember now that it was 
in testimony. 
Q. In testimony? Pardon me; it has .not been in yet. A. 
Hasn’t it? 
Q. No. A. Well, I have heard somebody say so recently. 
Q. Who said it ? A. I cannot remember. 
Q. Now, do 3tou know whether her sister was there or not? 
A. I have been reading so much about the case that I cannot 
tell where I saw it or heard it. 
Q. There never was a more distressing case than this on 
earth. Can’t you remember about this one? A. Will you re- 
peat the question? 
Q. Can you remember whether this lady had friends ? A. I 
don’t remember ; no, sir. I cannot remember a person. 
Q. Do you remember anybody coming there for her? A. 
No, sir; I cannot. 
Q. Do you know whether she was buried? A. No, sir; I 
don’t know. 
Q. Don’t you know she was not? A. No, sir. 
Q. That her sister — you treated this case, did you? A. 
In some parts of it; Dr. Marston a part of the time. 
Q. Which part did he treat? A. He had the care of the 
women’s hospital at the time when she was in the hospital under 
treatment for her last sickness. 
Q. In her last sickness? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you had the other? A. I think I did. 
Q. Don’t you know you did ? You have told us what took 
place on that occasion? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now don’t try to get away from that. Did you make 
that record of that case? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then you have made no record of it at all? A. I made 
that other record. 
Q. Which one? A. The record you read from the register. 
Q. That is your handwriting ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. AYhen was that made? A. I only know from its gen- 
eral appearance. It was made from time to time. 
Q. Was that record of Charlotte Anderson made within a 
week of her death? A. I made those records. 2264 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. The part, the entry of the ease was made at the time 
when she went to the hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then the record of the diagnosis may have been put in 
at the time after the autopsy. And the record of death was 
made, of course, after the death. So it was made at different 
times. Do yon know.whether her friends were notified? A. I 
cannot say about that. That was done at the office. 
Q. Now, won’t you show me any books that you kept, your 
daily record of any of your patients? A. Most of my histories 
are not here. 
Q. Why not? A. I mean they are not in this room. They 
are downstairs. There is a large bulk of them. These are the 
ones that are the most remote, the farthest back. 
Q. I want what the surveyors would call the field-books? 
A. Those are downstairs. Those are end books. 
Q. I want those about Charlotte Anderson’s time? A. 
That is the record of Charlotte Anderson’s case. We didn’t 
save any day-books at that time. 
Q. Pardon me; have you any day-books; that is, regular 
record of your patients as you found them in the hospital, cover- 
ing an}' time— Well, bring me all of those books, so we shall 
have no dodging about it; the books open at the end — bring 
them up here. A. We have no registers of histories, or day- 
books, save and except those that you see here, at Chai'lotte 
Anderson’s time. 
Q. Since Charlotte Anderson’s time? A. At Charlotte 
Anderson’s time. 
Q. Have you any before ? A. Or before either. I think 
these go back as far as I was there. 
Q. Did you have an}' books while you were there but these, 
or do these cover your time and you haven’t any others? A. 
Well, yes ; he has gone to get the recent ones. 
Q. Precisely. And those go clear down to date ? A. No, 
sir; these don’t come up to date, they only come to about 1877. 
Q. Only to 1877? A. I think that is about the time — or 
1878. 
Q. Then have you any record of that sort since 1877 or 
1878? A. Yes, sir. He has gone to get them. 
Q. During the time of her pregnancy, the latter part of it, 
was she delirious most of the time, in addition to general 
insanity? A. No, sir ; she was not. 
Q. After she got well, I suppose she was as well as ever she 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2265 
was? A. When she was down at the foundling hospital — 
yes, sir. 
Q. When she, in the language of this report, was an assist- 
ant attendant there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. She was then in a condition of mind to be allowed to be 
with her child up to the time when she grew delirious of this 
high fever? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Doctor, did you know Eklund? A. I cannot recall the 
man. I presume I knew him. I cannot remember him. 
Q. Did you ever see a man there with tattooing on his 
breast? A. I have seen a good many with tattooing, but I 
don’t recall any such as described in the testimony. I have 
seen a good many tattooed; it is a common thing among our 
inmates. 
Q. Tattooed upon the breast and other parts? A. The}' 
were, often. It was so common I never paid much attention to 
it. Some are tattooed on various parts of the body in various 
ways. 
Q. You don’t remember him at all? A. I cannot bring 
him to mind ; no, sir. 
[The books last sent for were produced.] 
Q. These were your books, were the}’ not? A. Some of 
these were in my handwriting. 
Q. Well, find those in your handwriting? A. [Selecting a 
book.] That is my handwriting. 
Q. Very well; give me that. Do you remember that girl’s 
name that was up in that room, that Mr. Dudley brought down ? 
A. What was her name? 
Q. Nutt, or some such short name. Was it not Mary Ryan? 
A. I don’t think that was the name. 
Gov. Butler. Won’t you look at the testimony— somebody 
— Mr. Dudley’s testimony ? 
Mr. Brown. There was a Mary Barron spoken of by Mr. 
Dudley. 
The Witness. Mary Barj'on ? 
Gov. Butler. Mary Barron. 
Q. Is this book in your handwriting? A. That is, there ; 
yes, sir. 
Q. Althea Hammond, an insane woman; that you have 
opened to right now. [Selecting another book.] Now, try 
this one. Is this your handwriting? A. I will tell you where 
it is mine. [Opening the book.] That is where mine begins. 2266 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
Apt-. 
The physician who happened to be in attendance in a ward 
wrote the notes. 
Q. Now, sir, tell me if you can, from that record, how fre- 
quently you were in the hospital? A. I cannot do it. I made 
a note July 9, here ; I made one July 10. I may have been in 
the hospital three or four times that day. I didn’t make any 
note of my own movements. 
Q. What? A. I didn’t make any note of my own move- 
ments. 
Q. Show me anything to indicate you were there July 11 or 
July 15? A. There was a note made July 11. 
Q. Well, go on. A. July 12. 
Q. Yes; goon. A. July 13. 
Q. Yes. A. Juty 14. 
Q. Yes. A. July 15. 
Q. Yes. A. July 16. 
Q. Yes. A. July 17. 
Q. Yes. A. July 18. 
Q. Yes. Then you did make notes of your own movements? 
A. It don’t show how many times on those days I visited the 
hospital. 
Q. But you were there on those days? A. Yes, sir; I 
will swear to that. 
Q. And those w'ere the notes made of certain persons? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, take this book [a third book] and show' me your 
handwriting there? A. M}' handwriting don’t occur in this 
book. 
Q. Not at all? A. No, sir. 
Q. Whose is that? A. This is Mrs. Dr. Abbott’s. 
Q. Mrs. Dr. Abbott? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Is that the same? [Referring to another book.] A. 
That is mine, sir. 
Q. All of it? A. I don’t know that it is, the whole book ; 
but that particular place you point to.is. [Referring to another 
page.] That was Dr. Foster’s. 
Q. Doctor who? A. Dr. Foster wrote that. 
Q. I believe I have now gone over these and found out in 
whose handwriting they are. I shall want to use them some- 
time. [Producing the piece of tattooed skin.] Did you ever 
see that on a man’s breast? A. I don’t remember ever to 
have seen it. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2267 
Q. Will you swear you didn’t? A. I will swear that I 
don’t remember ever to have seen it. 
Q. I have heard you swear you don’t remember. I want to 
know if you will swear you never saw it? A. I could not 
swear that, because I have seen so much tattooing. 
Q. That is very remarkable, is it not? A. I have seen a 
good deal that is very extensive on our people. I should think 
that was a very good specimen. 
Q. Can you tell now whether you saw it or not? Didn’t the 
patients talk about that? A. I have no recollection of ever 
having seen it at all, sir ; if I ever saw it, it passed from my mind 
at once. 
Q. Did you see the bodies after death at all? A. Yes, 
sir. Some physician always saw the body ; it was not always 
myself. 
Gov. Butler. Now, let us see when that man was there ; 
because it is not so long ago. Mr. Records, won’t you let me 
have the record of Eklund ? 
Mr. Records. I have his death here ; August 3. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] “ Charles J. Eklund ; condition 
as to wife, unknown ; 64 years; cause of death, senile demen- 
tia ; occupation, laborer; place of birth, Sweden ; name and 
birthplace of parents, unknown ; birthplace, Sweden,” — oh, 
yes ; residence and place of death in that column. Mr. Chair- 
man and gentlemen, there is the name of the clergyman who is 
supposed to have attended his funeral. Father Gigault attended 
his funeral. French only attended one on all that page. 
Mr. Brown. Father Gigault said he didn’t. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. He doesn’t say he didn’t; he 
only says he don’t know about it. 
Q. Now, that was not a great while ago? A. Four years, 
was it not? 
Q. Yes. A. Well, I don’t recall the man definitely. 
Q. You recall that you have seen this? [The piece of 
tattooed skin.] A. [ don’t remember that I ever saw it 
before. 
Q. I don’t mean in this state, but when it was on the man’s 
breast? A. No, sir ; I don’t remember ever having seen it. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t believe I want to trouble you any 
further. 
Mr. Brown. I have one or two questions I want to ask. 2268 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did you find as a matter of fact that these women who 
were delivered of children there were willing- to nurse these 
foundling babies? A. They would not do it without pay ; they 
wanted pay when they were asked to do it. 
Q. Now, I would like to ask you this: whether, when this 
matter was talked over with the trustees, the question of an 
insufficient appropriation was not always mentioned as the 
reason why they could not be employed? A. They always 
said they hadn’t the means. 
Q. Now, you said a few moments ago, or earlier in the 
morning, that there was a certain reason why you gave Dudley 
such a recommendation as you did give him. What are we to 
understand by that? A. I should say the same as I said to 
the governor, that I gave him the recommendation because I 
knew no reason why 1 should not; that I had nothing to say 
against him while he was there. 
Q. You say you knew no reason why you should not give 
him such a one as you did. What did you mean by that term, 
“such a one?” A. One that would be proper to give an 
attendant in a hospital. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) To go and get another place with, I 
suppose ? A. That is it. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Did you know anything about the 
merits of the matter of his discharge, — why he was discharged ? 
A. I asked the superintendent if he desired that he should be 
discharged, and he said most emphatically that he wished to 
have him discharged ; and that he should not be satisfied if he 
remained. 
Q. At the time you gave him this recommendation did you 
know he had been discharged from the hospital in Augusta 
for drunkenness when on duty? A. I knew nothing about 
that. 
Gov. Butler. And nobody else. 
Mr. Brown. Except that his wife testified that she knew 
something about it. 
Q. Do you know of any need which exists for any such 
record in the hospital as the governor has spoken to }-ou about? 
Or rather I should saj- in the insane department, because that 
is what it applied to. Do }tou know of any need, can you con- 
ceive of any good that could possibly come from keeping a 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2269 
record when an insane person is put into one of those rooms 
that you have referred to? , If you can conceive of any need of 
it, or any good it would ever serve anybody, please let us hear 
what it is? A. I didn’t think there was any need of it, and 
that was the reason I didn’t do it, — no advantage to be gained 
from it. 
Q. All the insane are in a building, are they not, where 
there are bars .at the windows, for the most part? A. All 
except the sick. 
Q. All except the sick insane? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that they are really imprisoned and restrained? A. 
They are not allowed to go out except in the yard, which is also 
enclosed. 
Q. And the mere matter of their being taken from the 
general room for the use of other insane, and put into a sep- 
arate room by themselves, you don’t consider that of sufficient 
importance to make a record of? A. That is it. 
Q. That is the fact, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, take this case of Charlotte Anderson. Did 
you know of any evidence of the existence of consumption 
prior tp the time of the birth of the child? A. I did not. 
Q. Well, is it any unusual thing for a person who is insane 
to have consumption? A. It is a common cause of death 
among that class of people. 
Q. Well, is it not more common among the insane than it is 
among those who are sane and in hospital? A. It is; yes, 
sir; according to my recollection of the statistics on the sub- 
ject. 
Q. And according to your personal observation, how is it ? 
A. It has been so at Tewksbury. 
Q. Now, I would like to know what is the fact, or what is 
the reason for the fact, that in so many cases consumption 
develops in insane patients, and the patient dies of consump- 
tion? A. I think there are several causes; one is their lack 
of intelligence to enable them to take care of themselves in 
keeping out of draughts, and such things as that; another is 
the depression of spirits arising from their disease ; and another 
matter,—perhaps depression of spirits would cover the whole 
that I want to express. 
Q. Now, Doctor, do you know — you say that you have 
possibly heard, might have heard, something of the sister of 2270 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
this Charlotte Anderson. Did you hear what her name 
was? A. No; I have no recollection of her. 
Q. You don’t recollect that she called there, if she ever did? 
A. No. Friends of the insane often go directly to the asylum 
without seeing anybody of the oflicers except the supervisors of 
the building. 
Q. Now I want to ask you in regard to the records of Char- 
lotte Anderson, and other records. Whether those records — 
for instance, take that of Charlotte Anderson — are those rec- 
ords made up and put into that book from day to day as the 
history of the patient develops or as the disease develops? 
A. The record of Charlotte Anderson was written several 
years ago. It was the custom of the doctor to use a note-book 
similar to what we have here, written with a little less care, to 
go to the dispensary after he had been through with his visit, 
and make a note on this other book. Sometimes he would 
write it and save his notes. It would depend upon circum- 
stances. 
Q. Now, was it frequently the case that those notes were not 
written out until after the death of the patient? A. I don’t 
think that was often the case ; I could not recollect so long. 
Q. Well, Dr. Marston said that he made that record some- 
where about the third da}’ of June. She was put into the hos- 
pital on the thirteenth day of May. Well, how was it in your 
own case ; did you make these records up yourself from day to 
day? A. Those records that I read are all made from day 
to day. 
Q. Well, now, you have been asked about flowers, etc. 
AVell, Doctor, there is quite a large area in the centre of this 
institution that is used as a sort of a flower-garden, shrubbery, 
etc., in the summer time, is there not? A. There is. 
Q. The conservatory is open to the public gaze, is it not, 
always? A. It is. 
Q. Now, in your judgment, — to say nothing about the 
amount of money,—but, in your judgment, Doctor, has that 
ground where the flowers have been planted and cultivated, and 
has that conservatory, where they have been kept in winter, 
been of any beneficial use whatever to these sick people? A. 
I think it makes the grounds very much more pleasant. 
Gov. Butler. That is not the question; the question is, 
beneficial use to the sick people. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2271 
Mr. Brown. I suppose if the grounds were pleasant it 
would be a benefit to sick persons. 
Gov. Butler. If they could see them, yes. 
Mr. Brown. Well, they are not all blind up there, nor near 
sighted, either. 
The Witness. In that way it would be for their benefit, 
walking about the grounds and seeing the plants and flowers. 
Q. Now, isn’t it a fact that your insane and your convales- 
cents and well people loiter about these grounds and sit there 
by the hour, day after day, in pleasant weather, throughout the 
year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. A pleasant morning like this, Doctor, there would be 150 
or more loitering around about these grounds, wouldn’t there, 
sitting on the settees? A. I should think so; yes, sir. 
Q. That is no unusual occurrence, is it, Doctor? A. In 
good weather. 
Q. In good weather. A. Yes ; that is about the way of it. 
Q. And that is what these grounds are kept there for, is it 
not, Doctor? A. The buildings are so constructed that there 
is an area in the centre which gives an opportunity for the 
patients to walk out without being outside the bounds. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler) . Are these flowers in the area ? A. 
How large an area? 
Q. Are these flowers in the area? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) The conservatory, Doctor, is right in 
the centre of that area, isn’t it, or nearly in the centre? A. 
Yes, sir ; just about the centre. 
Q. And the flowers and shrubbery are planted around in 
different places about these grounds? A. Yes, sir; right 
about the grounds. 
Mr. Brown. [To Gov. Butler.] You see you labor under a 
disadvantage in not having been there. 
Gov. Butler. Not at all. 
The Witness. About six or eight acres, I should say. 
Q. Now, there is a question which I meant to ask you, and 
with the governor’s permission I will do it now. You have had 
a great many occasions, I suppose, since you went there in 1875 
down to the present to refer to these registers of one kind 
and another kept by Mr. Charles Marsh ? A. I have. 
Gov. Butler. You put me in mind of a question I want to 
ask. 
Q. Now, I want to ask you if }’ou recollect any time when 2272 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
these registers were not kept up to date ? A. I think he has 
been almost invariably all written up to date. 
Q. And all carefully written so that all the data which you 
desired were ready at hand in the proper books? A. All that 
belonged to my department; all that I had occasion to go to. 
Q. As far as you had occasion to consult them they were ac- 
curately and neatly kept? A. They were. 
Q. The record of admissions, discharges, births and deaths, 
etc.? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Doctor, you were asked with regard to tattooing, and you 
said that a great many people you found in that institution had 
tattooing. A. Yes, sir ; a great many. 
Q. Did }tou ever have amT means of knowing whether the 
men who had tattooing upon their persons were seafaring men ? 
A. Usually, I should say. 
Q. Do you know whether or not there exists among the sea- 
faring men a custom of having some emblem of the Catholic 
Church tattooed on their bodies, so if they arc wrecked or cast 
into some Catholic countiy and die, that they will receive 
Christian burial; do 3’ou know whether such a custom as that 
exists? A. Well, I could not say ; I don’t know about that. 
Q. Have 3*011 seen these emblems of the Catholic Church 
upon the bodies of persons who were not Catholics? A. I 
don’t remember anything with reference to their religion in con- 
nection with their tattooing. 
Re-cross examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Charles Marsh swore that these books were all in his 
handwriting, except some marks made by the doctors. There 
is [referring to the book] H, B, D, B, H, H, II, H, — A. No, 
sir ; these are not made by me. 
Q. Who made these ? A. I don’t know ; I have no knowl- 
edge about it at all. 
Gov. Butler. You have no knowledge. [To the chairman.] 
I want 3'ou to see them ; we say that that is Harvard, Boston, 
Dental College. [Book handed to the chairman.] 
The Chairman. Where is the mark, Governor? [Mark 
pointed out.] 
Gov. Butler. Where is the old death-book? We sent for it 
yesterday and it hasn’t come. There are only a few there. [Re- 
ferring to the book handed to the chairman.] That is a new 
book. The old book, which was carried off*, they say, to make 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2273 
up the last month’s report, — although they haven’t had the 
books for a month and I don’t see how it could help them — 
The Chairman. What do you suggest the B is for, Gover- 
nor? 
Gov. Butler. B is for Boston College, H is for Harvard, 
and D is for Dental College. We will endeavor to trace them. 
Mr. Brown. That, I suppose, isn’t evidence? 
Gov. Butler. It is going to make up a certain sum which 
will be in evidence by and by. But I want now, Mr. Chairman, 
the old death-book, which 1 can’t conceive there was an}T occa- 
sion of taking away. 
The Chairman. Mr. Brown, do you know anything about 
it? 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know anything about it, nor are my 
clients in — 
The Chairman. They said they wanted it to make a return 
to the state board, and I told them they could take it, and 
bring it right back ; whether that is the book or not — 
Gov. Butler. The chairman can perceive it could not be 
that book, for that is an old book. 
The Chairman. [To Mr. Brown.] Is Charles Marsh down 
here ? 
Mr. Brown. He is not. 
The Witness. I asked him about it, and he said it was 
down in the committee-room, as far as he knew anything about 
it. 
The Chairman. We will make thorough search; we will 
have the book, Governor, if it is in existence. 
Gov. Butler. I wish the book could be found, because I need 
it for this. We want the marks on it, although we have a memo- 
randum of them. 
Q. Well, then, whoever swore that these marks were made 
by you made a mistake, certainly? A. He did, sir. 
Q. Can you tell by the looks whose handwriting these are ? 
A. No, sir ; I could not tell. 
Q. Can’t you tell ? The capital H’s are pretty thoroughly 
developed. A. I could not tell; they look, in a general way, 
like Charles Marsh’s writing; I should not think of their 
being any different, but I don’t know. I have not examined 
them closely enough, and I am not an expert in handwriting. 
Mr. Brown. [To Gov. Butler.] Where do you find Father 2274 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gigault here? [Referring to the book.] This gives the resi- 
dence, and gives the death. 
Gov. Butler. Every one is accounted for by French or 
Gigault. It is a false heading, but it is all right. 
Mr. Brown. Now, these in red ink are what you claim, 
Governor ? 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. These letters in red ink are what you want to 
call the attention of the committee to? 
Gov. Butler. Just now. 
The Witness. The only marks that I have made have been 
in this column [referring to the book], occasionally of a diag- 
nosis. For instance, I would write the disease instead of tell- 
ing him to write it. 
The Chairman. Governor, there was a letter sent in June 8, 
asking for certain books, in order that the physician there 
could complete his records before leaving, and, among the 
books asked for, was the registry of deaths ; is that, probably, 
the book? 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
The Witness. That is the book you have. 
Gov. Butler. We have this book, but the oue I want is an 
old book ; this commences in 1879. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, by whom is that letter signed? 
The Chairman. By Mr. Sanborn. 
The Witness. These books have been returned. 
The Chairman. All returned? 
The Witness. All except one book on obstetrics. 
The Chairman. Has that book ever been here? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; we have memoranda from it; haven’t 
you, Mr. Records? 
Mr. Records. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want to ask you, Doctor, about a man— I have 
got a letter about him since, almost since I finished with you. 
Do you remember the case of Thomas Natali, who died June 5, 
’82? A. 1 do, sir. 
Q. He had been there about eight years, hadn’t he? A. I 
could not tell the exact time without referring to the records. 
Q. About that; a long time? A. I should say he had been 
there some time. 
Q. Was his ankle broken — wras he run over and had his 
ankle broken? A. 1 think likely. I have not read the record 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2275 
for so long I could not tell, on the spur of the moment, wliat 
his exact injury was. He had some trouble of that kind. 
Q. Won’t 3’ou look to some record and see, if there is any. 
Here is a man who got his ankle broke — A. That is my 
recollection, sir, with regard to the case. 
Q. Do you also recollect it was never set? A. I do not. 
Q. Do you know whether it was set or not? A. I should 
want to look it up before making any statement about that. 
Gov. Butler. Look it right up, sir; here are all the records. 
The Witness. When did he die? 
.Gov. Butler. He died June 5th, 1882. His name is Thomas 
Nutall. You will find it there. 
Mr. Brown. [Referring to the register.] Thomas Nutall, 
43,870, June 5. 
Gov. Butler. Give us his whole record. 
Mr. Brown. Sex, color, other than white, MM.,— I don’t 
know what that means. 
Gov. Butler. Masculine. 
Mr. Brown. Masculine, white, condition unknown, 39 years 
of age, disease,— I don’t know; you will have to translate that, 
Doctor. It is written so I can’t read it. 
The Witness. What is that? [Looking at the book.] That 
is purpura. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] Residence and birthplace,—French; 
occupation, unknown ; place of birth ; residence. French is the 
clergyman, I guess. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. Place of birth, England. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; that is the clergyman. 
Mr. Brown. Place of birth, England. 
Gov. Butler. What was the cause of his death? 
The Witness. That was a constitutional disease, similar to 
scurvy. 
Gov. Butler. Where is it about his ankle? 
The Witness. I don’t see any record of men in 1872. [Re- 
ferring to the small books.] 
Q. Perhaps you will remember another thing; wasn’t he 
starved? A. When does it say the accident occurred? 
Q. Very well, Doctor ; 1 need not trbuble you ; I can find it 
m3rself when the time comes. I onty ask you if you don’t know 
he was starved, that is all? A. I don’t think he was starved. 2276 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Do 37ou know whether he was or not? A. I know he 
could not have been starved. 
Q. Could not have been starved ; and you don’t know that 
his ankle was reset? A. I have no recollection about his 
ankle. 
Q. Yes; you had a recollection it was broken. A. I 
remember that. 
Q. Well, go on ; tell us what you do remember about him? 
A. I remember that there was such a man and I remember 
tliat he died, but the particulars of his case I can’t recall. 
Q. No; but did he have his ankle broken? A. Tliatds 
really the state of the case; I could not recall it without 
records. 
Q. Well, I am not about what the state of the case was; 
but did he have his ankle broken, or do you want to take that 
back? A. I can’t remember about that. 
Q. Can’t remember; well, we will find somebody blessed 
with a better memory in good time. Dr. Otterson has been 
discharged lately, hasn’t he? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. On your recommendation? A. It was on my recom- 
mendation that he resigned. 
Q. He resigned on your recommendation, and for cause? 
A. His conduct was not becoming. 
Q. How lately? A. Since, — well, within the past few 
months I have noticed that he was not conducting himself— 
Q. I know; but how lately was he discharged? A. He 
was, — he left there, — his resignation was accepted at the last 
meeting of the board of health, lunacy and charity. He sent it 
in about four weeks previously. 
Q. And they kept it till the last meeting and then accepted 
it; in the meantime he had remained there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was any part of his conduct writing false prescriptions 
anywhere to get things? A. Not that I know of; no, sir. 
Q. Did you go down to Ballardvale or Andover to examine 
into that case? A. I did. 
Q. Did he write a prescription so as to get a drink? A. 
It wa’n’t what I should call a false prescription ; he got what he 
asked for. 
Q. Exactly. A. I understood by a false p inscription one 
that was not — 
Q. One that was not fitted to the case. He applied for what 
he wanted as physician of the almshouse, and got liquor when 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2277 
he could not get it any other way? That was it, wasn’t it? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Did he pay for it or have it charged 
to the Commonwealth? A. I suppose he paid for it; I have 
not heard anything to the contrary. 
Q. What is that under the head of disease, there in the 
case of Thomas Nutall? You said that indicated something 
like scurvy ; give us the full facts. A. It is a blood disease, 
making red spots upon the skin, and indicates a deteriorated 
condition of the system. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Poverty of the blood? A. It is 
allied to that. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Something chronic, of course? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you recollect, in his case, how long that condition of 
things had existed? A. I could not tell the length of time. 
Q. Do you know how long he was in the almshouse ? A. 
No, sir ; I could not say that. 
Gov. Butler. He was there since 1874 ; and it is the very 
case I wanted, because no man gets scurvy with a well-regu- 
lated diet. 
The Witness. Well, it was not scurvy. 
Q. Now, what was, — in view of His Excellency’s remark, 
please tell us more definitely what the disease was and what the 
cause of it was, if you know? A. It is quite different from 
scurvy in the fact that scurvy is generally attended with a sore 
upon the skin, which was entirely different from this, which was 
merely a deterioration of the system, attended with red spots 
and ecchymosis. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That means black and blue spots? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, what was the cause? A. I 
could not tell what it might have been in his case without more 
knowledge of the case. 
Q. How frequently did you see him? A. I have not 
looked it up at all; I could not say without seeing my record. 
Q. Well, did he ever complain to you that he didn’t get suf- 
ficient food ? A. I don’t remember ; I have no recollection of 
any such complaint. 
Q. Do }rou know whether. he ever complained to anybody 
else and it was communicated to you ? A. No, sir ; I have no 
recollection of any such complaint. 2278 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Did you ever know anybody in the almshouse that 
starved ? A. I never did; I never knew any one but what 
had — 
Q. Till this investigation did you ever hear of anybody that 
was claimed to been starved? A. I never did. Every 
person is allowed a sufficiency of good wholesome food. They 
sometimes complain that they would like different food from 
what they have, but they always have enough of such food as 
is provided. 
Gov. Butler. There is enough there if they can get it; of 
that I have no doubt. 
The Witness. And it is served in abundance. 
Q. Is there any difficulty, so far as you have observed, 
about their getting it? A. No difficulty in their getting it, so 
far as I have observed. 
Q. Did you ever hear any complaint that inmates could not 
get food there? A. I never heard any complaint that they 
could not get enough, excepting in rare in stances, where, for 
some reason, they would not get what they wanted right away, 
—just as occurs in every place wffiere food is distributed to a 
large number. There is an abundance of bread given to all; 
put on the table where they can have all they want of it. 
Q. There was another question asked you which I meant to 
have called your attention to. Something has been said about 
cutting off the hair of these insane people ; did you have any 
rule about that? 
Gov. Butler. If there is one I should like to have it pro- 
duced. 
A. The rule of the institution is, both as regards sane and 
insane women, that the hair shall remain on. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler). Is this in writing? A. What, sir? 
Q. Is this in writing? A. The rule in writing? No, sir; 
it is the rule which I have observed to be followed. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) State it. A. That the hair of 
women shall remain on unless there is some special reason to 
the contrary ; and I think, as a rule, the hair of insane women 
is allowed to remain on. A good many of them come there 
with their hair short from other institutions; and, in some 
instances, the hair has been removed for a definite reason. 
Q. Well, such as what? A. Such as the inability of the 
patient to keep it in order on account of their habits or ways, 1883 
HOUSE 
No. 300 
2279 
and, therefore, it is cut off. But where the patient is able to 
keep her hair up and is not disorderly, it is allowed to remain. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) One word! You don’t want to 
take back what you swore yesterday or day before yesterday, 
about this hair business, — that you didn’t know how many of 
them hud been cut off, and that was a matter which was done 
by the supervisor, attended to by him? A. I should not wish 
to take that back. 
Q. Very well; now, then, I want to ask you another ques- 
tion. While there was plenty of food there, a poor fellow that 
was Mat on his back and had to have food brought to him where 
he was, might not get it if the attendant didn’t choose to carry 
it? A. There were side-tables. 
Q. What? A. We have a table beside of each bed and 
the food is placed on it; and where patients are unable to feed 
themselves it is the duty of the attendant to feed them. 
Q. Well, I understand, that is the question. There may be 
food, he may be starving in the midst of abundance, from 
inability to get hold of it, — we have had testimony about one 
or two cases of that sort. And, now, take this man, — how 
long was he flat on his back? A. You mean Nutall? 
Q. Nutall. A. I say I can’t give a statement of the case 
without something else. 
Q. Now, were not these people fed, sometimes, by idiotic 
and insane people? These people who were not able to go to 
the table, — fed or to be fed? A. We employ inmate assist- 
ance, but we have very, — I don’t remember any instance of 
that kind. 
Q. Let me call your attention. A. But there might be an 
instance of that kind. 
Q. Take that woman Byron, or whatever her name was. 
Mr. Brown. Barron. 
Gov. Butler. Who was up in that room, — which you are 
inclined to call a room, — up therein that place in the attic? 
A. Well, it was a room, sir, a well-ventilated room. 
Q. I know, excellently well-ventilated room; but wasn’t 
her food carried up to her, or to be carried to her, before Dud- 
ley was there, by an idiotic girl, or partially idiotic? A. In 
the asylum they use the service of the inmates, and very likely 
it was so. 
Q. I don’t ask that question. I pray God you will keep to 
the question ! I ask you whether the food used to be carried 2280 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
up into that attic to her by an insane, idiotic girl or not, — now, 
answer that, and don’t tell me anything else. A. It may have 
been so. 
Q. May have beep so; wasn’t it so, on your oath? A. 
Well, I don’t remember the individual that carried the food to 
her. 
Q. I don’t ask you whether you remember the individual. 
A. I could not tell you what her state of mind was. 
Q. Can you tell me whether that was so or not? Dudley 
and Mrs. Dudley have sworn so, 3 011 certified to their good con- 
duct,— now, will you swear that was not so? A. I can’t tell 
you who carried it. 
Q. Then you don’t know enough about this poor woman who 
was confined up there for weeks to know what sort of a crea- 
ture carried the food to her, or refused to carry7 it to her? That 
is 37our condition of mind, is it? A. I don’t remember who 
carried the food on that occasion. 
Q. And whether a fit person or not you don’t know, and y ou 
never did know, either, did y7ou ? A. That is another thing. 
I can’t remember who did those little things in the institution 
five or six y7ears back, 1876. 
Q. Then you won’t contradict anybody upon that subject. 
Now, let us go a little to this disease ; wasn’t the disease which 
this man died of, what is sometimes called poverty of the 
blood ? A. It is due to that; yes, sir. 
Q. Due to that; now, doesn’t poverty' of the blood come 
from want of food, proper food? A. It may be constitutional 
or it may be due to the diet. 
Q. What, poverty of the blood may be constitutional? A. 
It may be so. 
Q. Well, if the man, up to the time he got his ankle 
broken, had plenty7 of good food, and got along well, if you 
you should find poverty of the blood after that, you would 
ascribe it, in ordinary cases, wouldn’t you, to want of food ? 
A. Well, it might — 
Q. What? A. I should not say it was necessarily want of 
food. 
Q. Necessarily7; but that would be a cause, wouldn’t it? 
A. Might be a cause. 
Q. Now, then, doesn’t scurvy' come from the same cause? 
A. Scurvy comes from a want of proper food. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2281 
Q. Proper food? A. Rather than an insufficient supply,— 
proper food. 
Q. An insufficient supply of proper food or not a sufficient 
supply of proper food, both. For instance, where the sailor 
goes around the world and there is nothing but hard-tack and 
salt-horse given him, he very frequently has the scurvy? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. But the least giving him of vegetables, onions and vine- 
gar, beets and carrots, and a little beefsteak, he comes right out 
of it in a few weeks, don’t he? A. Sometimes lie does ; that 
is the usual history. 
Q. Isn’t that generally so? A. That is the usual history 
of these cases. 
Q. Isn’t that the remedy ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is the remedy ; now, then, wouldn’t the same rem- 
edy apply to this case? A. I should not call this — 
Q. What? A. I should not call this a case of scurvy; I 
should say it was due to general debility. 
Q. General debility ; and his blood was so poor that it set- 
tled in spots on his skin, leaving black and blue spots? A. 
Want of proper circulation. 
Q. Yes; want of proper circulation. Now, you say that 
you asked the trustees of this institution for some money, for a 
little money to pay these poor girls for giving their breasts of 
milk to the foundling children, which would have saved their 
lives, and the trustees said the appropriation was too little, did 
they? A. They said they hadn’t means for that. 
Q. What? Hadn’t the means? A. They hadn’t the 
means. 
Q. Now, did you say to them, “ Well, hadn’t you better 
stop the greenhouse and take that money to save these chil- 
dren’s lives ? ” A. I don’t remember what I said to them. 
Q. Well, did you say that? A. I didn’t say that. 
Q. Very well; that is sufficient for my purpose. Now, then, 
will you, upon your oath, give an opinion whether looking at 
those flowers was of more benefit to the people, the well people, 
than the breasts of milk would have been to those foundlings, 
the breasts of mothers’ milk ? Which do you think, now, upon 
the whole, Doctor? A. I think the nursing would have been 
most valuable. 
Q. Then, we have got this condition of things. You hadn’t 
money enough to give breasts of fresh milk to dying foundlings, 2282 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
but there was plenty of money to keep a greenhouse to put a 
daily bouquet on the table of Charles Marsh, — that was 
condition, — the ollice table, and you never protested against 
it? A. I never had much to say about the greenhouse at all. 
Q. I know you hadn’t much to say about the greenhouse ; 
but you let the greenhouse go on and the foundlings die for a 
want of a little expenditure, didn’t you? A. I had no — I 
didn’t regard the greenhouse as any part of my duty. 
Q. I know }rou had no part to stop that, and the green- 
house went on, the flowers were sweet, and the foundlings were 
dead ? That is the institution which you have been over for 
some years, isn’t it? A. Well, we had the greenhouse, surely. 
Q. Had the greenhouse ; well, that is one thing ; but }rou 
had the foundlings, and the flowers blossomed, and the found- 
lings died for want of money enough to buy them mother’s 
milk. And there were 667 quarts of strawberries raised on the 
farm for the benefit of the employees and the officers, weren’t 
there? Now, Doctor, don’t you think it would have been bet- 
ter, really, upon the whole, to have let the strawberries gone 
and given the foundlings milk for half the expense? A. I 
didn’t give much attention to the strawberries or the flowers. 
Q. I know you didn’t give much attention to them, nor any- 
body else except Mr. Marsh and those that had them. But 
that is the point; why didn’t 3*011 sa3’ to the trustees, “ If you 
haven’t sell the strawberries and get the breasts of milk 
and save these poor creatures’ lives. Sell the potted plants and 
give these poor creatures milk, if the State hasn’t got enough.” 
Why didn’t 3'ou sa3T that to them, as a humane man? A. I 
don’t know. 
Q. You don’t know wiry? A. I didn’t give much attention 
to the strawberries. 
Q. You didn’t what? A. I didn’t consider it any part of 
my dut3? to make recommendation for the sale of strawberries. 
Q. Ah; but wouldn’t it have been well for 3’ou to have 
brought this to the attention of these trustees who were saying, 
“ We haven’t got money enough,” and asked them if they could 
not cut off some of these things which were not as necessaiy as 
the milk was ? A. They were expecting all the time that this 
S3rstem which was frnalty adopted would be adopted sooner than 
it was, and, therefore, they — 
Q. They expected it sooner; but in the meantime, while 
you were expecting, — and that ran over a period of about six 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2283 
years, as you testified day before yesterday ; you were six years 
expecting, — during these six years every child was dying for 
want of this milk. A. Of course we could not have had the 
syphilitic children wet-nursed. 
Q. Oh, I know ; but one syphilitic child is the only one there 
has been any evidence was in there. Now, you take refuge 
under that syphilitic child, do you? Why did all the others die? 
A. Oh, I do not take refuge under that. 
Q. Very well; why did you bring it forward here, then? 
A. 1 only spoke of it as being one class ; we had quite a good 
number of those. 
Q. You would not have let the syphilitic nurse ; the women, 
probably, would not; but why not let the rest? Why not? A. 
1 don’t know any reason than just as I have said. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir. 
Testimony of Marshall B. Bean (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brovin. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Marshall B. Bean. 
Q. And you are one of the attendants in the Tewksbury 
insane department? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long have you been there? A. Been there since 
March, 1880. 
Q. You are the gentleman who was referred to by His Ex- 
cellency on Wednesday as the man who had at some time been 
a barber? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Well, that is all I want of you ; His Excellency 
can question you further. That is all. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. I will prove my case by some 
of my own witnesses. 
Mr. Brown. All right. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t want any liars from Tewksbury. 
Mr. Brown. [To the witness, who had left the stand.] Mr. 
Bean, come here a moment; just take your seat here again. 
Q. Did you ever cut off the hair of an}7 insane person and 
sell it? A. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. [To Gov. Butler.] He is your witness. 2284 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
CAPr- 
Q. Did you ever cut off the hair of any insane person? A. 
I did, sir. 
Q. How many ? A. I should say three or four ; not more 
than that. 
Q. No more than that? A. No, sir. 
Q. In all the years you have been there ? A. Three years, 
sir, next July. 
Q. And only three or four. Did anybody else cut it off, to 
your knowledge? A. No, sir ; not since I have been there. 
Q. Not since you have been there. You had charge of the 
insane women, did you? A. I did, sir. 
Q, How old are you ? A. I am twenty-six. 
Q. How long have you been there ; since 1880? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. What was your business immediately before going there ? 
A. I went to Taunton in 1876 and stayed there till the fall. 
Q. What time did you go? A. I went there in January. 
Q. What time did you leave? A. I left in November. 
Q. What did you go there to do? A. As an attendant. 
Q. What? A. An attendant. 
Q. An attendant on what? A. On the asylum, the hos- 
pital. 
Q. As such an attendant, what was your business? A. I 
was attendant on the ward. 
Q. What? A. Care of the insane on the ward. 
Q. Had you ever had the care of insane before that? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. And, then, in 1876, how old were you? A I was' 
nineteen. 
Q. And, going there a boy of nineteen, you were put in 
charge of the insane on the ward, were you ? A. I was not 
in charge, sir. 
Q. AYhat had you to do with the insane on the ward ? A. 
I helped to take care of them. 
Q. Who did you help to take care of them? A. In every- 
way, every day-; generally day and night, too. 
Q. AYhat? A. There was an experienced attendant with 
me. 
Q. What? A. There wras an experienced attendant in 
charge above me. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2285 
Q. And you were there for six months, from January to 
October ; where did you go then ? A. I stayed there till, with 
the exception of two months that L was sick, — I stayed there 
until the fall of 1879. 
Q. Stayed where? A. In Taunton. 
Q. What were you doing there ? A. An attendant. 
Q. The fall of 1879 ; in the same position? A. The same 
position ; well, in different wards, the same position. 
Q. In the different wards? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You then came to Tewksbury? A. No, sir. 
Q. Where did you go then ? A. I went home to Maine 
and stayed. 
Q. How long? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. What did you do between 1879 and 1880, in Maine? 
A. It was in November, sir, I went home ; I don’t remember 
how long I stayed. I came back to Boston. 
Q. What did you do? A. I opened a barber shop ; I hired 
a man, who was an experienced man, to work for me. 
Q. You went into a barber shop and hired a man who was 
an experienced man, who was a barber, to work for you? A. 
Yes, sir ; I had no experience myself. 
Q. And the next place you went was Tewksbury? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Where did you go then? A. I stayed in the barber 
shop about a month, I think ; after that I engaged in business 
with Frank Barker in a provision store. 
Q. What doing? A. A provision store. 
Q. How long did you remain in the provision business? A. 
That was in January, I guess; I stayed there till I went to 
Tewksbury in March. 
Q. What did you do from January to March? A. I was 
in the business, sir. 
Q. In the provision business? A. Yes. 
Q. What had you been doing before you went to Taunton ? 
A. I was a farmer, sir. 
Q. A farmer in Maine? A. Yes, sir; always lived on a 
farm. 
Q. Do you know Mr. Medina in Lowell? A. Who, sir. 
Q. Mr. Medina? A. I do not. v 
Q. Or in Lawrence ? A. No, sir. 
Q. What do you say? A. I don’t remember I ever did. 2286 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr, 
Q. What did you do with the hair }tou cut off? A. I 
burned it. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Wait a moment. When you spoke 
of cutting off hair, you meant cutting off long hair? A. Long 
hair. 
Q. How about the insane woman who had short hair; did 
they have it cut occasionally? A. Yes, sir; I have cut them 
several times since I have been there, perhaps some of them 
two or three times a year. 
Q. That is, each person? A. Yes, sir ; a great many of 
them were short when I went there. We had some, — I recollect 
of patients coming from four institutions in the State with short 
hair, and some of them would ask me to cut their hair off sev- 
eral times. Some have asked me that I never have cut off, 
becuuse I didn’t think it was necessary ; but those who weren’t 
able, — whom I thought it necessary to do it for, I did it. 
Q. That is, those who weren’t able to what? A. Who 
would not take care of it; and if you took care of it for them 
they would not do so unless you put them in restraint. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Unless you put them where? A. 
In restraint, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Would not keep their hair right? 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) So this matter of their wearing long 
or short hair depends on their ability to keep cleanly? A. Yes, 
sir ; in cutting off long hair, it was. 
Q. And in cutting short hair, more or less, it would depend 
upon the wish of the patient? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Then there were only three during 
the whole time you were there but what were able to take care 
of their own hair, that had long hair? A. That had longhair? 
Q. Yes, sir; only two or three that had long hair? A. 
No, sir; there were more than that that had long hair, but 
there were only two or three that were not able or would not 
take care of it or have it taken care of, that I cut off. 
Q. Then you cut it off? Now, wasn’t the hair of the 
patients cared for by the attendants? A. Yes, sir; the hair 
is combed regularly twice a da}'. 
Q. When an insane woman would not have it cared for it 
was cut off? A. Those that I did that way were filthy, were 
very much affected with vermin. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2287 
Q. Very much affected with vermin? A. Yes, sir; Iliad 
one case — 
Q. How long was she affected with vermin? A. It was a 
week before I got it clean, and I didn’t then till I cut it off; I 
combed them ever}r day. 
Q. You combed them? A. I did that head ; yes, sir. 
Q. Everyday; she just come in ? A. She came from out- 
side ; }res, sir. I kept her in seclusion on account of other 
persons getting vermin. 
Q. She was an insane person? A. Yes, sir; considered 
so. 
Q. She came from outside ; where did she come from? A. 
I could not sa}\ 
Q. You don’t know? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do 3rou remember her name, so I can find where she 
came from? A. I think her name was Susan ; I can’t remem- 
ber the other. 
Q. What? A. Her name was Susan ; I can’t remember 
her surname, her Christian name. 
Q. I can’t pick her out among all the Susans. A. Well, I 
can’t remember it. 
Q. How old was she ? A. 1 should think she was forty. 
Q. There now ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Cured, or dead? A. I don’t know; she was taken from 
under me ; I don’t know where she went, anything about it. 
Q. Did 3tou know Nutall? A. Nutter; 3Tes, sir. 
Q. What? A. Who? 
Q. Nutall? A. No, sir. 
Q. The man who had his ankle broken? A. No, sir. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) How long were you in Taunton? 
A. I was there from the first day of February, 1876, until 
November 13, I think, 1879, with the exception of two months 
I was sick. 
Q. Insane women have their hair cut off there? A. Yes, 
sir ; I have seen many. 
Q. You spoke of restraint; was there any restraint in 
Taunton? A. Yes, sir; we used it. 
Q. Insane women? A. I was not in charge of a female 
ward. 
Q. The same that you use in Tewksbury? A. What, sir? 
Q. Was it the same kind of restraint you use in Tewksbury? 
A. Yes, sir. 2288 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. He said he was not in the female ward there. 
The Witness. The restraint we used in the male ward was 
about the same as at Tewksbury. 
Testimony of Mary L. Bean (sworn) 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Mary L. Bean. 
Q. You are the wife of the gentleman who just left the wit- 
ness stand? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You are a Swede, are }Tou? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did you come from Sweden? A. I think it was 
in 1872. 
Q. And when did you go to Tewksbury? A. 1880, in 
May. 
Q. Did you go there with your husband? A. No, sir; I 
went after he did. 
Q. After he did? A. Yes, sir ; two or three months after 
he did. 
Q. What do you do at Tewksbury ? A. I am an attendant 
in the insane building. 
Q. I want to ask you this question : do 3’ou recollect whether 
there is in the insane department, or any other department of 
the institution, boxes for the reception of letters, which are 
locked? A. Yes, sir ; there is. 
Q. And nobody in the institution has any key, that you 
know of? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who keeps the key? A. I don’t know; I have seen 
Mr. Sanborn come in frequently and open the boxes. 
Q. Do you know the purpose of keeping those boxes? A. 
Well, I supposed it was — 
Gov. Butler. Stop a moment; not your supposition. 
The Witness. I don’t know, I am sure. 
Q. Can anybody, sane or insane, deposit any letter in these 
boxes? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And when that letter is deposited in that box there 
isn’t anybody at the institution who can unlock it to get it out? 
A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. IIow does she know that? 
Mr. Brown. I ask her; she has already said nobody but 
Mr. Sanborn had the key. 
The Witness. 1 never saw anybody else have the key. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2289 
Q. Now, how long has that condition of things continued? 
A. It has been ever since I have been there. 
Q. And how much longer you don’t know ? A. No, sir. 
Q. So if anybody had any complaint to make they could 
easily write a note and deposit it in the box? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. If they could write. 
Mr. Brown. If they could write. 
Q. Did you ever see any people deposit notes in that box? 
A. I have no knowledge of but two letters being put in there 
since I have been there. 
Q. That is, you refer to the box which is at your depart- 
ment? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But there are boxes at the other departments? A. 
There are. These letters I have seen Mr. Sanborn take out 
twice ; I don’t remember he has ever taken out any more than 
twice. 
Q. Of course you are not looking at this box all the time? 
A. No, sir ; I am not. 
Q. You are attending to your various duties about the dor- 
mitory and ward. A. But when Mr. Sanborn comes there it 
is frequently half full of dirt, and he most always asks me to 
clean it out while he lias it open, and in that way I have seen 
him ; I don’t recollect but twice he has taken out any letters. 
Q. How did the dirt get in there? A. It has a place on the 
top for letters to drop in, you know, and the patients lill that 
up ; put dirt in there. 
Q. Patients, as a freak of fancy, fill up the box with dirt ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I guess she don’t mean to say that. 
Q. Is that what you mean to say? A. I don’t mean to say 
fill it up, but there is almost always dirt in there when he opens 
the box. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Settled in through the slit in the 
top? A. I know one patient dropped a five-cent piece in 
there she had, and he found that. 
Gov. Butler. She thought it was a savings bank, I sup- 
pose. 
The Witness. Perhaps so. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, were in the same depart- 
ment with Mr. and Mrs French, who left? A. I was. 
Q. Who is in your department? A. Hannah O’Connell is 
the third attendant. 2290 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. The beds and bedding have always been kept clean since 
you have been there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have 3-011 ever known any cases of cruelty or abusive 
treatment? A. I have not. 
Q. How frequently' has the physician called there? A. 
Well, the plrysician alw'ayrs comes there every day'. and oftener; 
if he is not in the room we call him. 
Q. You call him? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Any' lack of food there since yrou have been there ? A. 
No, sir; we have had plenty of food. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. and Mrs. Bean, Governor, are the people 
y'ou spoke of so creditably the other day, and I thought I would 
produce them. I turn this lady over to you now-. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. When were you married to Mr. Bean? A. I was mar- 
ried in 1880. 
Q. At the asylum? A. No, sir; just before I went there. 
Q. What was his place when you got there? A. He was 
in the male hospital for the sick. 
Q. In the male hospital? A. Yes, sir; in the sick hospi- 
tal. 
Q. And then he was put in charge of the women? A. 
When I first went there, for four weeks, I was in the sick hospi- 
tal, too ; in the women’s hospital. And afterwards — 
Q. And afterwards y'ou and he were put in charge of the in- 
sane women? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. IIow many of them have you now? A. Well, I can’t 
recollect how many we had wdien we went there ; it varies. 
Q. About what? A. Probably about 125. 
Q. Now', a little about this box, if you please. This box 
was a box which would hold letters, and it had a considerable 
of a slit in it to put in a package of letters or newspapers? A. 
Yes, sir ; there was a slit on top. 
Q. And the dust went into that slit and sometimes something 
else was put in there. Did Mr. Sanborn take out both of these 
letters at a time? A. T think not. 
Q. When did you see him take out the first one? A. I 
don’t recollect the time. 
Q. Soon after you went there? A. Well, I could not say. 
Q. Within a year? A. I don’t think I could state the 
time. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300 
2291 
Q. When was the last one he took out? A. The la9t one, 
I think, was last winter. 
Q. This very last winter? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And should you say the first one was more than a year 
after you came there? A. I could not tell, sir; 1 could not 
state the time. 
Q. Those two letters were put in there by somebody during 
that time; do you know who put them in? A. No, sir; I 
don’t. 
Q. Do you know to whom they were directed? A. I am 
sure I don’t. 
Q. You don’t know that. And this box, which the legisla- 
ture was wise enough to enact should be put there, has had two 
letters in it, out of an average of 125 patients, in three years? 
A. That is all I can sa}r. 
Q. That is all you know of; and, unless somebody had a 
key, and robbed it, —then there might have been more, but they 
didn’t get airy further. If it was honestly kept, then only two 
people dropped anything in it to their friends or anybody else 
during that time? A. That is all I can recollect, sir. 
Q. That is all you can recollect. And each time that Mr. 
Sanborn came there he wanted you to clean out the dirt? A. 
He generally has done so ; yes, sir. 
Q. He opens it quite often ? A. Well,— 
Q. Once in three or four months? A. When he comes 
there he opens it. 
Q. Every time he opens it; and he comes there once in 
three or four months? A. I think so. 
Q. And he never has found but two letters in it 
when he was there : but he has found dirt in it sometimes, and 
always asks you to sweep it out, clean it out? A. Yes, sir; 
one of us ; the one that is there. 
Q. So all the people, if the boxes have been honestly kept, 
that have wanted to communicate with their friends and write 
letters in praise of Tewksbury to them, have only used that box 
twice in three years? That is the condition of things. Well, 
now, I suppose there is note paper and envelopes and postage 
stamps lying around on the tables, aren’t there, in the insane 
department? A. I have never seen them, sir. 
Q. Never seen any? A. No, sir. If the}'ask for paper 
we give it to them; but I have not seen any envelopes or 
stamps. 2292 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, how do they get their envelopes and stamps? A. 
The letters, when they write them, they give them to us, and we 
carry them to the oflice, and there they are mailed,— those that 
write to their friends. 
Q. Those that write to their friends ; they are carried to the 
office and are left? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And are mailed to their friends or not; you don’t know 
whether they are or not? A. I am sure I could not tell you 
further. 
Q. You could not know it; that would be something you 
would not know. Do they write considerably to their friends, 
and have the letters carried to the office? A. Not very often ; 
no, sir. 
Q. Well, sometimes? A. Yes; sometimes. 
Q. A good man}- more than two or three a year, I take it? 
A. Oh, yes, sir. 
Q. A dozen a week? A. No, sir. 
Q. Five or six a week? A. I should say not. 
Q. Three or four a week? A. No; 1 should not think it 
was. 
Q. Well, two a week, on the average? A. Sometimes they 
write two and sometimes not. 
Q. And sometimes less; those letters sealed? A. When 
they are sent from the insane building? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir; they just write them and give them 
to us, that is, to the attendants, and we take them to the office. 
Q. Without being sealed? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And without being put in an envelope? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the rule of the institution is. 1 suppose, that they 
shall leave them unsealed? A. I am sure I don’t know what 
the rule is ; that has always been done so since 1 have been 
there. 
Q. That has always been done so ; that is to say, nobody 
can write any complaint — A. Since I have been there. 
Q. Nobody can write any letter of complaint that is not 
seen, — or letter of praise, either, — that is not to be seen by 
the people at the office unsealed, or else put it in this box for 
Sanborn to see, — that is the condition of things, isn’t it? And 
if they wrote complaints in their letters to their friends, that 
would be known at the office at once, because they could read 
them? A. I am sure — 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2293 
Q. What? A. I don’t know ; I am sure I never read their 
letters. 
Q. Of course you don’t; they are nothing to you ; you car- 
ried them to the office. A. I carried them to the office. 
Q. And gave them to Charles Marsh, I suppose? A. I 
left them on his desk ; yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. On his desk. Now, then, we have got this 
whole performance about the box. 
Mr. Brown. You have got the wrong box ; that is all. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; this is the only box that is produced. 
Mr. Brown. 1 beg 3'our pardon ; the box I asked her about 
is a box in the insane building, which is accessible to all the 
inmates, and you haven’t asked her anything about that; you 
have asked her about the box in which she deposited the mail. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. I asked her about the box Mr. 
Sanborn opened twice and found two letters once in three years, 
and cleaned out every now and then when he came. I asked 
her all about that, and then 1 asked her what was done with the 
letters written by the insane inmates and patients there, and 
she says they are sent, unsealed, to the office, and there isn’t 
any box to put them in there ; they are laid on Charles Marsh’s 
desk ; so I have not got the wrong box. I only want the fact, 
and I am very much obliged to }rou for it, that they have not 
been able to make a complaint. 
Q. Is there a box of the same description that you have 
ever happened to see in the other departments? A. This box 
I refer to is in our department, in the front hall. 
Q. In the front hall? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did anybody else have access to it but your folks ? A. 
No, sir ; only in our part. 
Q. Well, now, have you seen any box elsewhere like that? 
A. They have a box in all three of the insane departments just 
of the same kind. 
Q. The three insane departments have boxes ; do they have 
a box of that description except in the insane departments? 
A. That is all I have seen. 
Gov. Butler. All you have seen. I believe the law pro- 
vides that; Senator Flatley’s law. 
Q. Do you know whether those letters had postage stamps 
on them that Sanborn took out — those two letters? A. No. 
sir ; I do not. 
Q. I now want to ask you about another thing. Since 1880, 2294 
CHAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
since the time you were married, you and your husband have 
been in charge of this insane ward ? A. Yes, sir ; with the 
exception of four weeks, I think, when I was not there. 
Q. Did you know Charlotte Anderson ? A. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. She died in 1877. 
Q. Do you know of an insane woman by the name of Emily 
or Martha Toussaint? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Does she speak English? A. No, sir; I have never 
heard her. She is in my care, but she is at the hospital at the 
present time. 
Q. Where is she now ? A. She is in the sick hospital. 
Q. When in the insane building she was in your care? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And you never heard her speak English ? A. I don’t 
recollect that I have ever heard her. She very seldom speaks 
to say anything. When she talks, she talks — I don’t know 
what language it is. 
Q. She talks French or Swiss, or some language you don’t 
know? A. I don’t understand it. 
Q. And you don’t know anybody else there that does under- 
stand it, do you? A. I don’t know, I am sure. I don’t know 
of anybody; no, sir. 
Q. Then she could not talk much with much satisfaction, if 
nobody knew what she said, could she? She is a quiet person, 
is she? A. Generally so ; yes, sir. 
Q. Quite a well bred, well behaved person, isn’t she? A. 
Well, she is not clean about her person at all. 
Q. What? A. She is not clean about her person at all. 
She is rather a filth}’ patient. 
Q. I think you said she is there now? A. She is now in 
the sick hospital; y’es, sir. 
Q. What is the matter with her? A. I don’t know, I am 
sure. She was sick and w*as sent down there, and I have not 
seen her since. 
Q. How long ago was that? A. Three months, perhaps. 
Q. Now, you and your husband are in sole charge in that 
ward as attendants, are you not? A. As attendants ; yes, sir. 
Q. And I suppose he is supervisor and you are attendant, or 
how do they’ call you? A. Yes ; I am called an attendant. 
Q. And yon have sole charge of the ward? All the rest of 
your help are insane patients, are they not? A. We have 
another attendant; there are three of us. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2295 
Q. That is by night? A. No, sir; there are three of us. 
Q. Who is the night attendant? A. We don’t have any. 
Q. Don’t you have any night attendant? A. No, sir. 
Q. Are these one hundred twenty-five insane women — A. 
In one ward. 
Q. Are these one hundred and twenty-five insane women left 
in their ward without any attendant at night? A. Well, we 
sleep right off from the ward ; and, if there is any trouble, we 
generally hear it. 
Q. You generally hear it if you wake up. 1 don’t ask you 
if you generally hear it, 1 only asked whether there was any at- 
tendant to watch and look to see that no harm came to them? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. There is not. That is all 1 want to know. Well, you 
have never done them airy harm, have you? A. Not that I 
know of. 
Q. I fully believe that. And your husband has never done 
them any harm that you know of? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never restrained anybody in any way? A. There have 
been times when patients have been restrained, sir. 
Q. I know. Then he does it, I suppose? A. Well, gen- 
erally I think he has. 
Q. Of course you haven’t? A. 1 have assisted him. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I want to ask you a single question, 
as the matter of duplicate keys might be of some importance. 
Did you ever know anybody to have a duplicate key to that 
box? A. I have never seen anybody go to that box except 
Mr. Sanborn. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t suppose you ever have. 
Q. Do you know of any reason why, if anybody has a com- 
plaint to make against the institution, the}'' cannot deposit it in 
that box, just as well as the.y could deposit anything in praise of 
the institution ? 
Gov. Butler. This is not within the line. You have exam- 
ined fully about that box. 
Mr. Brown. I want to ask that question. You asked about 
one, I want to ask about the other — why a person who has a 
complaint to make cannot put it in that box? 
Gov. Butler. I said both. 
Air. Brown. 1 beg your pardon ; you didn’t. 
Gov. Butler. I beg your pardon ; I said both. 2296 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. Let her answer; if it is a duplicate answer 
it won’t do any harm. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Do yon know any reason why any- 
body cannot put a complaint into that box if they want to make 
one? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then there is no restraint; nothing to prevent anybody 
from using that box if they want to? A. No, sir. 
Q. And there is always paper handy? A. Yes, sir ; when- 
ever they ask for any paper it is given to them. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) One single question. Is there any 
rule or regulation or anything put up in your room to inform the 
patients that they may use that box? A. It is written over 
the box, or printed. 
Q. I want to know if it is in j'our rooms? A. Right over 
the box. 
Q. But the box is in the hall? A. The box is in the hall, 
where the women go from one room to another — out in the 
entry. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) flow large type is it? A. Oh, it is 
quite large. 
Q. Is it as large as that on that page. [Title-page of 
House Document 300.] A. It is larger than “ Public Charita- 
ble Institutions.” 
Q. On that title-page of this House Document, No. 300? 
A. Yes, sir ; it is larger than that. 
Q. What does it say, as nearly as you can recollect? A. I 
think it reads that all the patients confined in the several lunatic 
asylums in this State are allowed to write monthly to the super- 
intendent of the asylum in which they are confined, or to the 
state board of charity, or to the commissioners of lunacy. 
That is as near as I can remember it. 
Gov. Butler. Anybody that wants to write to the commis- 
sioners of lunacy is to have a chance to put the letter in the 
box. Who ever willingly wrote to them ? 
Mr. Brown. I thought by }rour last that you wrote very 
willingly. 
Gov. Butler. I did it as a matter of duty. 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t see anything that looked reluctant 
about it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2297 
Testimony of Abraham S Barnard (recalled). 
Q. Well, Mr. Barnard, have you any more coffee for us? 
A. Yes, sir. [Samples of tea and coffee produced in bottles.] 
Q. How did you make it? A. I made it just the same as 
1 made my last. 
Q. Have you got some of the coffee here? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. I mean have you got some of the coffee in a dry state? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Let us see it. 
Gov. Butler. I want to make the same objection I made 
before, that this is not evidence for any purpose, however it 
was made or how it was not made — coffee bought since this in- 
stitution has been changed. 
Mr. Brown. Where is your coffee, Mr. Barnard? [Samples 
of tea, coffee and sugar produced.] 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, how long have you been using 
that kind of coffee ? 
The Chairman. If he knows. 
The Witness. Well, for a number of years. 
Q. It is not coffee that you have got since the first of Janu- 
ary, since the new administration? A. No, sir. Well, I 
asked the superintendent, Mr. Marsh — 
Q. Never mind what you asked anybody; but take your own 
judgment? A. 1 should judge it was just the same. 
Q. And that judgment is based on an inspection of the ap- 
pearance of the coffee and the taste of the coffee? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Now, that package is a sample of the coffee. Now, what 
is this here? A. That is tea, sir. 
Q. That is a sample of the tea? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is the same you have been using for how many 
years ? 
Gov. Butler. I would like a ruling before we spend any 
more time upon the matter. 
The Chairman. We want to see what it is, Governor. 
The Witness. It is the same tea we have been using for a 
number of years. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, what is that package? A. 
That is sugar, sir. 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 2298 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Is that of the same qualit}" you have been using for a 
number of years? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did }'0u weigh this coffee and tea that you made this 
from? A. I did, sir. 
Q. Give us the weight? A. Sixteen pounds of coffee-, fif- 
teen pounds of sugar, seven pounds of tea. 
Q. Now, how much water did you use to sixteen pounds of 
coffee? A. Well, after I used thirty quarts of milk, that 
makes 120 gallons. 
Q. So there is about 112J- gallons of water and 7b gallons 
of milk, which makes 120 gallons. That is the way you made 
the coffee. How did you make the tea? A. We make the tea 
the same way. 
Q. flow much sugar did you put into the 120 gallons of 
water and milk with which you made your cofi'ee? A. Fifteen 
pounds, sir. 
Q. How much in the tea? A. The same. 
Q. And this was made in that way, was it? A. It was, 
sir. 
Q. Out of this coffee, tea and sugar, of which these three are 
samples, respectively? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this is 
competent. 
Gov. Butler. There is not a man on your committee that 
don’t know that no man can tell the quality of coffee and of tea 
year by year, who is not a professional on that subject. This 
man is not. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) How long have you been there? 
A. Most fourteen years. 
Q. Cooking all the time ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (B3- Gov. Butler.) Yes; you have been cooking all 
the time, but }’Ou have been careful not to drink this stuff at all? 
A. I have drank gallons of it. 
Q. At the table? A. I don’t sit down at the table to 
drink it. 
Q. Well, when you were eating at the table. When you 
were eating at the table where you dine and where you sup and 
breakfast? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, then, can you tell — are you a judge of tea? A. 
I don’t profess to be. 
Q. You do not. Are 3-011 a judge of cofi'ee ? A. No, sir ; 
X cannot tell. I don’t profess to be a judge of coffee. 1883.J 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2299 
Q. And I suppose there might be a, great difference in the 
quality of coffee, and after it is burnt you could not tell the 
difference? A. Yes, 1 think I could if there was a great dif- 
ference. 
Q. Well, there might be considerable difference? A. I 
often taste of it — about every day. 
Q. You could tell by the taste, and everybody else could. 
Then you have no special knowledge, more than anybody else, 
have you? A. No, sir ; I don’t know as I have. 
Q. Now, this may be just as good coffee as you have been 
having, or it may be worse, or it may be better; and the tea 
may be of the same quality? Won’t you let me see that tea a 
moment. You always have exactly the same kind of tea? A. 
Well, it is about that same kind, as near as I can learn. 
Q. IIow learn ? A. Capt. Marsh — 
Q. By asking Capt. Marsh? A. I asked him, and he says 
it is about the same kind he has bought for a number of years. 
Q. When did you ask him? A. I asked lnm yesterday. 
Q. Where did you get the tea from? A. Got it from the 
storehouse. 
Q. Was he there? A. No, sir. 
Q. And you asked him — you got it and carried it to him ? 
A. No, sir ; I asked him before I went to the storehouse. 
Q. What is Capt. Marsh doing there? He was discharged 
some two or three months ago. 
The Chairman. Let us not go into that, Governor; let us 
confine ourselves to the tea and coffee. 
Gov. Butler. I want to know whether he is there manufact" 
uring evidence. 
The Chairman. It may take a week to go over that. 
Gov. Butler. Precisely. If this is going in at all I want it 
to go in after examination. Now, what 1 want to know is 
whether Capt. Marsh is there superintending, and this was in 
the regular course of business. 
The Chairman. In regard to this we don’t care ; what he is 
there for hasn’t anything to do with the tea and coffee. 
Gov. Butler. 1 am trying to find out what he is there for ; 
whether he is there simply to furnish evidence, or whether he is 
there in the regular course of business. Because, it is upon his 
statement that this man is giving his testimony. 
The Chairman. I don’t think what Capt. Marsh said to 2300 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
him about the tea is competent at all. He must swear of his 
own knowledge as to the quality of the tea. 
Q. (By* Gov. Butler.) You didn’t know enough about this 
tea except to go and ask Mr. Marsh about it, whether it was 
the same? A. I just merely spoke about it. I asked him if he 
bought this same kind of tea for a number of years, and he said 
he had. 
Q. You went and asked him whether he had bought this 
same kind, and you had to ask him to find out, didn’t you? A. 
Well, I don’t pretend to be an expert in tea myself. 
Gov. Butler. The chairman tried to make you out one. 
The Chairman. No, I didn’t. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) I will ask you this question : in 
your experience of fourteen years there as cook, do you believe 
this tea and this coffee are substantially the same as you have 
been using? A. Well, for this five or six y*ears past I should 
judge it was, sir. 
Q. For five or six years past y*ou believe it to be the same? 
A. Yes, sir. I have been there five years this third term, and 
I should judge from what I have seen that it is just about the 
same. 
The Chairman. Now, as to the weight of this evidence I 
have my doubts ; as to its competenc3’, it seems to me it is 
competent. 
Gov. Butler. I can have no doubt about its competency. 
Here is this man who says he don’t know whether it is the same 
or not, and he don’t pretend to be a judge of coffee. 
The Chairman. He says he believes it is. 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly*. 
The Chairman. That is all any* one can do. He is cooking 
there all the time. 
Gov. Butler. The belief of a man who don’t know anything 
is not evidence. 
The Chairman. A man who has been cooking for fourteen 
years must know something about coffee, although he says he 
don’t. 
Gov. Butler. Well, if y*ou are going to dispute the witness’s 
knowledge, and say* he does, when he swears he don’t, I can’t 
help it. 
The Chairman. I am going to use a little common sense 
about it. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2301 
Gov. Butler. A man’s prejudice cannot go farther than 
that; — 
The Chairman. I understand. 
Gov. Butler. — To dispute a man who says he is not an 
expert. He says he don’t know anything about it, and he goes 
and asks Capt. Marsh because he don’t know. 
The Chairman. I ask him now the question specifically, and 
he says, to the best of his knowledge and belief, it is the same 
coffee. 
Gov. Butler. The knowledge is not in his answer, and has 
been put in by you. 
The Chairman. No, sir ; I deny it. 
Gov. Butler. Read the record. 
The Chairman. The question is whether this shall be ad- 
mitted. 
Mr. Brown. I want to saj- a single word in regard to this. 
Three of the witnesses produced here by His Excellency have 
testified that through a long period of time, and all within the 
last six years, the tea and the coffee was mere dishwater. That 
is the expression they have used several times. Now, the 
question before this committee is,not what is the quality of that 
coffee or that tea, whether the tea is Oolong, Formosa or not, 
or whether the coffee is Male Berry, Java, Old Dominion, or 
some other; that is not the question at all. The question 
is whether this tea and this coffee is a good palatable, 
wholesome, stimulating and nourishing drink for the purpose ; 
that is all. The charge is made against the managers of this 
institution that the}- are dealing out to these inmates mere dish- 
water. Now, I produce a man who savs that this coffee and 
this tea is; in his judgment.—-he is not an expert; he cannot 
tell the different qualities of tea by the taste, but he knows good 
tea from poor tea just as well as every man or woman in this 
room. I could not tell to save my life — and I doubt if His 
Excellency could—the difference between the different kinds 
of tea advertised as green tea and black tea; blit I can tell 
when a cup of tea suits me. 1 don’t know the difference 
between Java and Mocha and different kinds of coffee; but I 
can tell when I have a good cup of coffee. Now, this is only 
one step. His Excellency seems to place so much stress 
upon this matter, and seems to wish it understood by the 
testimony in regard to this whole tea or coffee business that 
mere dishwater is being fed out to these people that I am 2302 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
going to produce the bills from the auditor’s office for a series 
of years — for ten or twelve years. I have had them prepared, 
and I will show what this coffee is, and the exact grade of it. 
But then, what will that benefit you? 
Gov. Butler. Nothing. 
Mr. Brown. Suppose I bring in here evidence of a witness 
to show that this is Mocha coffee, and tell the price per pound. 
Would that give you any idea? I venture to assert that there 
are not ten people in this room who can tell the difference 
between Mocha and Java b}' the taste. I am sure I could not. 
And yet I have a sort of notion that Mocha is the best. I 
don’t know anything about it. 
Gov. Butler. It is better than Old Dominion. 
Mr. Brown. I am glad you know Old Dominion, whatever 
it is. And that is the purpose, Mr. Chairman, for which I offer 
it. Of course, His Excellency says he has no doubt as to the 
competency of it; I should think he had better leave tin1 weight 
of it with the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. I say I have no doubt that it 
is incompetent. 
Mr. Brown. You put it the other way. 
The Chairman. It seems to me the question is right here : 
whether people have been starved to death. What they have 
eaten and drunk, we have had evidence, is bread and coffee — 
Gov. Butler. Does the court give its opinion before the 
point has been argued ? 
The Chairman. No ; I want to state, if I can, the issue. 
I don’t know as I agree exactly with Mr. Brown upon the issue. 
What the3r have fed upon is competent to show the committee ; 
and if this is substantially what they have drunk it seems to me 
it may be competent, although I think its weight is a matter of 
doubt. 
Gov. Butler. The whole question is whether this is a 
sample. 
The Chairman. I think so. 
Gov. Butler. Now, what evidence is there of that? The 
case stands thus. They have had tea and coffee, — my evidence 
goes far back of the last five years, — which were neither coffee 
nor tea. If you will read the reports of the State assayer, Dr. 
Jackson, those reports will tell you that he assayed twelve 
specimens of coffee put up as French Imperial, Crown coffee, 
and all those fancy names; and he reports that he didn’t find HOUSE —No. 300. 
2303 
1883.] 
any signs of coffee in but one of them, and that, he came to the 
conclusion, got in there by accident. Nobody can tell. Tea is 
still worse adulterated, if possible. And so the mere fact that 
good tea is produced here to-day by a man who is not an ex- 
pert, who don’t claim to be an expert, and who has said so, 
don’t prove what the}' had. It only proves what has been 
brought here under the instructions of Capt. Marsh. That is 
all the proof is. If this is not dishwater it is because it is made 
in an improved way. You have got no standard to operate 
from at all; because you cannot know ; the witness don’t know, 
and cannot know, that it is the same thing. And the counsel 
was fair enough to state that the price would not determine the 
coffee, because men would be deceived in coffee. I tried a case 
some years ago against a very distinguished firm for cheating the 
government by damaged coffee and damaged pepper, which they 
sold afterwards for good pepper and good coffee. And it turned 
out that the coffee was damaged by sea-water, — soaked for 
months in coming over from Java, — and was then taken and 
burned — washed and burned — and after that nobody could 
tell what it was except an expert. And it was sold indiscrim- 
inately. So with the pepper. They shipped raw hides from 
Borneo, and they could not make proper profit on them by 
shipping them in salt, and so, — if I may use the phrase, — 
they salted them with pepper, and kept them by pepper instead 
of salt. When they got here they took the hides out of the 
hold, and the pepper ran down into the bottom among the bilge 
water and all that. And then the custom-house officers said 
very properly: that is worthless pepper, and we don’t charge 
any duty on that pepper. Then that pepper was taken out and 
washed and ground and sold ; and it had such an effect on me 
that I have hardly eaten any pepper on my beefsteak since. 
And when they say they get white pepper I am still more skep- 
tical,' because this pepper was a good deal whitened out by that 
process. So that it is utterly impossible to tell. Therefore the 
rule of law has been that there must be a standard, as in writ- 
ing and everything else ; a standard that we know, with which 
we can make comparison. Now, whether this is the same tea 
nobody knows. Whether this tea has not come out of the caddy 
wherein the tea of the family is, we have no evidence at the 
present time. We only know that up there now there is some 
tea which is like this tea. Well, now, there is one thing I want 
to call to the attention of the committee. These two bottles 2304 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr* 
are of very different complexion from the bottles that we had 
here the other day, if you remember them; and they were 
made, or were attempted to be made, the same. Therefore you 
have no standard. You have nothing that you can rely upon 
as evidence. Now, if there is not, you cannot contradict, — it 
don’t contradict anybody to show that now the}' have this. 
And it is not a question of a different kind of coffee. It is a 
different strength of coffee. Some coffee is veiy much stronger 
than others. I am acquainted with some of them — such as 
Java, Mocha, San Domingo, Rio and others ; and there is now 
using to some degree coffee called Maleberry coffee, from the 
Isthmus of Panama. Some people think it is much better than 
others. But we are here not on the peculiar palatable taste of 
the coffee, but upon the strength of it—and that you know 
nothing about — of that which has been there. All you have 
got, if you believe the witness, is the strength of what is there 
now. Now, is that evidence to contradict sworn testimony? It 
has neither competency nor weight. It lacks for competency 
the element of standard ; because this man is not an expert to 
give us a standard. It lacks for weight the element of any 
knowledge — even admitting the witness to be true — that this 
is the same these men have had. I have tried not to spend 
much time about this, and I am not very strenuous about it; 
because to me it don’t seem to be a matter of any weight, even 
if its competency is established. But I do think that an inves- 
tigation that means to get at the truth, and not hide it, that 
means to deal with the case fairly, should go only upon matters 
that are proven somewhere, somehow. 
The Chairman. Cornelius O’Brien testifies that the coffee 
was spoiled water, or something of that kind. He didn’t testify 
as an expert. Dr. Tucker testified that the tea might be a little 
stronger, and he was not asked as an expert. 
Gov. Butler. Be it so, sir. I agree, sir. But this is not 
contradicting sworn testimony, to show what they have been 
drinking recently. The difference is a very wide one. I am 
telling about the thing I am drinking; I am not telling about 
the quality of what it is made of. 
Mr. Brown. That is just what we want to tell — what these 
people have been drinking. 
Gov. Butler. Not what they have been drinking, lmt what 
is made there. 
The Chairman. He says that is the same the}' have been 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2305 
drinking; and that is the only ground on which I think it is 
competent at all. 
Gov. Butler. And that is a mere matter of belief, founded 
upon the strength of the coffee ; weighed out now, to be sixteen 
pounds, against unweighed coffee and tea heretofore. Now, it 
may be just this: it may be that the uxorious gentleman, 
“ French Joe,” who generally had this coffee, in order to see 
Mary Tynan, thought he would take a few pounds of coffee and 
sell it. Is there any evidence that he didn’t, if it was not 
weighed, and if no account was kept? And this man don’t 
know. Now, he does know that there is sixteen pounds. He 
ma}' have supposed there were sixteen pounds before. If a por- 
tion was taken out, why, it would be like “ slops,” as we should 
call them — like dishwater. I don’t think it would be very 
strong at the rate of sixteen pounds of coffee to two hogsheads 
of water and milk. 1 should say that was not very strong cof- 
fee. It might be weak coffee ; and, then, wdien you come to 
take out a pound or two, it leaves it “ slops ” and dishwater ; 
and a man knows it when he drinks it. Not that the coffee was 
not good, but that there was not coffee enough to taste. And it 
might happen that none of this coffee and this pepper that I 
have told you about was there ; that might very possibly happen. 
But it won’t do to take all we hear. This witness has testified 
that there never was any bad beef boiled there. The doctor 
testifies that there was, and in some cases he stopped it before 
it was served out. Well, that shows that he was not expert 
enough to know the difference between good and bad beef; or 
else it shows some other thing that would be more uncharitable. 
The Chairman. I think with you, Governor, that the weight 
of the ingredients should be substantially the same. I under- 
stood him to say that this was put up in the same proportion 
that he had been making coffee and tea for a number of years. 
Gov. Butler. Always heretofore, he sa}Ts, it has not been 
weighed. 
The Chairman. But the quantity that he has put up is sub- 
stantially the same, to the best of his knowledge and ability. 
Gov. Butler. But he don’t know by the weight. 
The Chairman. It is not exact, as you would have it in the 
circuit court in trying cases of fraud against the government; 
but substantially. 
Mr. Brown. We have the sworn testimony of ‘‘French 
Joe ” — 2306 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Now, I must insist upon the close this time. 
The Chairman. I think we had better decide it, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. I want to , call attention to the fact that 
“French Joe” testified that he did weigh it; and this witness 
sa}rs the weight agreed. 
The Chairman. Will the committee take a drink of this tea 
and coffee? Will the committee admit this tea and coffee to be 
tasted by the committee? 
Gov. Butler. The committee may be accustomed to very 
poor coffee, for aught I know. 
Mr. Chamberlain. If it was very weak dishwater that was 
served five or six years ago, and this is something which is a 
very little stronger and better, it seems to me it is very impor- 
tant for this committee to know it. The witness, if I under- 
stand it, has made this coffee and tea for the last ten years. 
Gov. Butler. Only the last five 3*ears. 
Mr. Chamberlain. He does not need to be an expert to tell 
dishwater from something that has a little coffee in it. It seems 
to me that the testimony is of as much value as that of the 
inmates, and 1 for one shall vote to admit it, in order that we 
may arrive at the facts of the case. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t object to his testifying what sort of 
coffee he had, if he knows. 
[The question was taken and the tea and coffee were 
admitted.] 
Mr. Brown. I will present it to the committee and they can 
do what they see fit with it. 
Adjourned to meet on Tuesday, June 19, at 9.30 a. m. 2307 
1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
FORTY-NINTH HEARING. 
Tuesday, June 19. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a. m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Emil A. Grotiiusen {sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Emil A. Grothusen. 
Q. What is your business ? A. Accountant. 
Q. How long have you been in business as an accountant? 
A. About twenty years. 
Q. Advising in the matter of opening books — have you 
had experience in that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Examining sets of books which have been kept by other 
parties? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In other words, you are engaged as expert accountant, 
are you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you examined the books of the Tewksbury alms- 
house? A. I have looked them over; yres, sir. 
Q. How long have you spent in the examination of those 
books, off and on? A. Twenty-six days or twenty-seven 
days. 
Q. Now, Mr. Grothusen, have yrou made an analysis of all 
the accounts in those books, commencing with October first, 
1869, and coming down to the first of January, 1883? A. Not 
from the books. 
Q. From the books in connection with any’ other papers? 
A. I have taken my figures from the original bills in the audi- 
tor’s department. 
Q. Have you, in that connection, looked at the books to see 
if they are correct? A. I have had occasion to look at the 
books. 
Q. To verify the accounts? A. To verify’ the accounts. 
Q. Now, so far as y’ou have had occasion to examine the 2308 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
books in comparison with the vouchers in the auditor’s office, 
what has been the result? A. You mean the result of my 
figures or the result of my observation. 
Q. The result of your figures? A. I have them tabulated. 
Q. You have them tabulated in that way. [Referring to 
tables.] And the result of your observation has been what? 
A. That the books are correct; or that they agree with the 
auditor’s bills. 
Q. You have familiarized yourself with the manner in which 
the account is kept at the auditor’s office? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, what books are necessary to be kept at the 
Tewksbury almshouse in order to have a complete account 
there? State only such as are necessary’. A. One book only 
would be necessary. 
Q. What book would that be? A. The invoice-book — 
tabulated invoice-book. 
Q. And that one single book would be sufficient for all prac- 
tical purposes in order to keep the accounts at the Tewksbury 
almshouse with accuracy', would it? A. It would. 
Q. Would it be necessary to keep a cash account; if so, 
under what circumstances? A. No, sir. I can see no neces- 
sity for a cash-book. 
Q. Is there any necessity for keeping a journal or ledger? 
A. No, sir ; none whatever. 
Q. Now, in the keeping of these books, or in the set of 
books at the Tewksbury almshouse you found a cash account, 
journal and ledger, did yrou? A. I did, sir. 
Q. For what purpose had they been kept, apparently’? A. 
Under their system it was necessary to keep them. 
Q. Why? A. To account for the moneys received from 
the auditor’s department and put to separate accounts. 
Q. Well, for instance ; supposing in any month there was a 
schedule made of expenditures accompanied with the vouchers, 
amounting, we will say, to five thousand dollars; that money’ is 
drawn from the treasury and passed into the hands of the super- 
intendent. Have you found they’ are in the habit of placing this 
amount under cash? A Yes, sir. 
Q. And then in carrying out the keeping of the cash 
account what was done further? A. From the cash it was 
posted into the journal, or entered into the journal, summarized 
and condensed, and from the journal posted under different 
headings into the ledger. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2309 
Q. When the several items of the schedule for the month 
had been paid, what entries were made in the cash account, did 
von find? A. They charged so much paid for salaries, and 
so much paid and due for bills. 
Q. And that balanced the entire amount? A. For expen- 
ditures ; yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Grothusen, have you examined all the 
vouchers in the auditor’s office, of the Tewksbury almshouse 
for the 3'ear 1862? A. I have, sir. 
Gov. Butler. What year? 
Mr. Brown. 1862. 
Q. Have you tabulated the result of that examination? A. 
1 have. 
Mr. Brown. Please produce your table. 
[The witness produced the table asked for.] 
Q. Now, I asked you if you had examined all the vouchers. 
Will you be kind enough to state what you have done with 
reference to the year 1862? A. I went to the auditor’s office 
and asked for the files of all paid bills on account of the Tewks- 
bury almshouse for the year 1861-62. I selected from those two 
packages the three months of September, October and Novem- 
ber, 1861, and also the nine months beginning in January, 
1862, and ending October, 1862. 
Gov. Butler. September, October and November, 1861? 
The Witness. No; October, November and December, 1861, 
completing the almshouse year. 
Gov. Butler. I understood it was so, but your use of the 
word September misled me. 
Mr. Brown. That makes just twelve months. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; the almshouse year. 
The Witness. Yes, sir; because it would be more likely to 
agree with the report, on account of the products of the farm, 
if it was necessary to go into that. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Three of those months being in 1861 
and nine in 1862? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, just read your caption for that table? A. “ Com- 
parative statement of quantity and cost of sundries, 1862, 1882 ; 
number of inmates being about the same ; number of employees 
increased three-fold.” That is, the inmates in 1862 were 913, 
and in 1882 they were 892. Number of employees in 1862, 22 ; 
number of employees in 1882, 53, 2310 
ClIARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, in regard to salaries? A. The salaries paid in 
1862 were $7,227.49 ; the salaries for 1882 w*ere $19,510.77. 
Q. Take the different articles that passed into the diet. A. 
Of flour in 1862 there were 1,401 barrels used. 
Q. And you may as well state the cost in that connection. 
A. It cost an average of $6.02 per barrel. In 1862 there were 
1,676 barrels used, at a cost of $7.20 per barrel. Of corn there 
were 2,650 bushels used in 1862, and 1,800 bushels in 1882. 
The cost for 1862 was 59 cents per bushel; the cost for 
1882 was 83 cents per bushel. Of salt meat in 1862 
there were 210 barrels purchased. For 1862 I could not 
add the pork which was raised on the farm, from the fact that 
the number of pounds was not specified in the report. I sent 
to Tewksbury, to Mr. Charles Marsh, I think, on Thursday last, 
to see if I could get the 1862 inventoiy. I have not received 
it, so I suppose that it is not to be found. It is not downstairs 
in the room. So I am only taking the purchases. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do 3*011 want the number of pounds 
of pork? A. Yes, sir; that would be the only meat they 
salt. 
Q. Did you give the cost of the salt meat? A. The 210 
barrels of beef purchased in 1862 cost $9.43 per barrel. 
The Witness. [To Gov. Butler.] Have 3*ou it there, sir? 
Gov. Butler. There is the amount, sir; but they put it in 
as pork and other things. 
The Witness. That is the reason I could not state it. 
Gov. Butler. And it does not give the number of pounds of 
each article. 
The Witness. I thought I would not put in anything on as- 
sumption. The number of barrels of beef purchased in 1882 
was 215, and the average cost $14 per barrel. 
Q. (B}* Gov. Butler.) There wras no beef in 1862? Was 
that 1862 or 1882? A. In 1862 the number of barrels of beef 
was 210, and in 1882, 215. Of fresh meat in 1862 there were 
52,566 pounds, costing 6j60 cents per pound; in 1882, 88,528 
pounds, costing 7j30 cents per pound. Of salt fish there was 
purchased in 1862, 16,000 pounds, costing If cents per pound; 
in 1882 there were 22,415 pounds, costing 3§ cents per pound. 
Of fresh fish in 1862 there were purchased 21,982 pounds, cost- 
ing 2£ cents per pound ; in 1882 there were 33,117 pounds, cost- 
ing 4£ cents per pound. I shall have to 3’our pardon. I 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2311 
added the spices into the groceries of 1882, and changed it yes- 
terday. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Is that all on your schedule? A. No, 
sir. I just want to say in regard to the groceries that I thought 
I would simplify it a little. I had first a column of spices, but 
I found they amounted to so little that I took them out and 
added them into the groceries. The groceries include starch 
and small articles that I thought it would not be worth while to 
put in separately. For groceries there was paid in 1862> $641. 
85; in 1882, $1,347.22. Of sugar in 1862 there was practi- 
cally none ; that is to say, there was a small quantity of 4,349 
pounds of granulated or powdered sugar. Taking that fact into 
comparison with the large quantity of molasses used, I came to 
the conclusion that the sugar was simply for the officers’ table. 
The amount was 4,349 pounds, costing 104 cents per pound. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Can you give the committee the 
number of pounds of sugar and the number of gallons of mo- 
lasses? A. I have got the molasses in another item. The 
sugar, in 1862, was 4,349 pounds, costing 10J- cents per pound; 
in 1882, 33,112 pounds, costing cents per pound; princi- 
pally for Demerara or low grades of sugar, with a few barrels 
of granulated per month. 
Q. What did you say the price was in 1862 ? A. Ten and 
a half cents for white sugar ; whereas in 1882 it. was principally 
brown sugar, costing 84 cents. Of molasses, in 1862, there 
was 5,189 gallons, costing 24£ cents per gallon. 1 presume it 
could be reduced down to pounds, but I didn’t* make inquiry 
how many pounds of sugar to the gallon. In 1882 there was 
981 gallons of molasses, costing cents per gallon. You see 
the sugar has increased and the molasses has gone down. In 
1862 there was practically no tea. There was 657 pounds, at 
40, 60 and 70 cents per pound, which, I take it, was for the 
officers ; so I put it down as costing 40 cents per pound. There 
was a little lot bought at 48 cents, and some at 70 and 75 cents ; 
the average per pound was 40 cents. In 1882 there were 5,307 
pounds, averaging 26 cents per pound. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That includes good tea? A. Yes, 
sir; I think that includes about 80 pounds of Oolong tea a 
month, and seven or eight chests of Japan, or sometimes ten. 
Q. What was the price of the tea? A. The Japan cost 
about 20 cents ; 20,21 or 22 cents, along there. The Oolong 
tea purchased during this year ran from 38 up to 42 cents per 2312 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
pound ; coffee I don’t find any entry of in 1862, except on some 
grocery bill there would be five or ten pounds of Java ; and 
the quantity was so small I would take no account of it and 
classed it with groceries. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) How much was there in all, according 
to your best recollection? A. It could not have been over 100 
pounds. 
Q. That is during 1862? A. 1862. There might have 
been some on hand. I looked for stock on hand, in 1862, and 
could not find any classification ; it was just like the other. It 
was dumped a great deal in the earlier years, — the stock on 
hand ; and for that reason I concluded to let it take that form. 
In 1882 the amount of coffee purchased was 7,623 pounds, at 
an average cost of 144- cents per pound. Of butter, in 1862, 
there was purchased 3,127 pounds, costing 18 cents per 
pound; in 1882 there Avas purchased 16,460 pounds,at 21 cents 
per pound. Eggs, in 1862, 526 dozen, at cents; in 1882, 
934 dozen, at 24 cents. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) And that independent of what was 
raised on the place? A. Yes, sir; these are all purchases. 
Not being able to get the meat raised separated, I didn’t look 
any further to see whether the eggs and butter was separated. 
These are all purchases. 
Q. Sixty-two pounds? A. Yes, sir; raised there. If it 
is necessary, those can be put in ; but I didn’t think it was 
proper to put in one item unless I could put in the Avhole. Of 
rice, in 1862, there was only one purchase of 50 pounds. 
Practically might be called none, because it was probably only for 
officers’ use ; because 50 pounds among 900 inmates would not 
go a great ways. In 1882 there was purchased 9.843 pounds of 
rice, costing 6t80 cents per pound. Of oatmeal, there was pur- 
chased in 1862, 2,300 pounds, costing 2f- cents per pound ; in 
1882,9,200 pounds, at 3£ cents per pound. Rye meal, in 1862, 
600 pounds, costing 14 cents per pound ; in 1882, 3,600 pounds, 
costing 21 cents per pound. Of crackers, there were bought, in 
1862, 6,088 pounds—they gave them a cracker ration instead of 
bread,—costing 6£ cents per pound. There were none pur- 
chased in 1882. Of potatoes there were purchased, in 1862, 
3,280 bushels. There were none purchased in 1882. The pota- 
toes purchased in 1862 cost 44 cents per bushel. Of drugs, 
surgical instruments, artificial limbs, trusses, etc., there were 
purchased, in 1862, $429.17; in 1882, $1,485.14. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2313 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) A difference of $1,000? A. Yes, 
sir. I took off the valuation of the drugs on hand at the 
beginning, took off at the end, so as to get at the actual use. 
Of coal, which is the last item, there were tons purchased 
in 1862, costing $4.65 per ton ; and in 1882 there were pur- 
chased 2,192 tons, costing $5 per ton. I found no stock on 
hand of coal, so I have not the remotest idea whether the whole 
of the 577 tons were used ; only that they purchased that. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That was purchased each year? 
A. Something about five times as nmcli in 1882. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, I wish you wrould glance over 
that table and tell the committee what articles of diet you find 
in the 1882 list that don’t appear among the purchases in the 
1862 list; or what appear in the purchases of 1882 that don’t 
appear in the purchases of 1862? A. Well, practically there 
is rice, tea and coffee. I should say practically, although there 
is a small quantity of tea ; but I don’t wish to make any as- 
sumption about it. 
Q. Now, 1 want you, between now and to-morrow morning, 
to take the almshouse report covering that same period for 1862 
and 1882, and add the product of the farm, the estimated value 
as shown there? A. Well, but how am I to get the pounds? 
Mr. Brown. It don’t make any difference; you get the 
result in money. 
Gov. Butler. No ; because they don’t give us the value of 
the products. 
The Witness. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I think they do. 
Gov. Butler. They do in 1862, but in 1882 they do not. 
Mr. Brown. Then get it in this way : estimate the products 
of the farm at the same value you find the State paid for pur- 
chases. 
The Witness. Well, that would be impracticable, Mr. 
Brown, because the meat is lumped together; beef that is 
worth cents for fores, backs and hinds worth 8 and 10 
cents, veal is all around 12 or 15 cents, and mutton is 10 or 12 
cents — they class it all together, if I understand His Excel- 
lency. I don’t like to do anything on assumption. 
Mr. Brown. Then, will you add that upon the report, the 
almshouse report of 1862, — that is, 1861-62, the months you 
have explained. 
Gov. Butler. The year. 2314 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. That year. 
Q. By the reports of the auditor’s office there is no way of 
ascertaining the actual cost of the consumption of food which 
went to the institution. A. Oh, yes ; I can take up the whole 
of the valuation. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) But suppose there is no valuation, 
then what are you going to do? A. I suppose the next prac- 
tical course would be to summon a committee of experts to 
testify to the value. 
Q. You were asked if by the auditor’s figures you could get 
at the exact cost. 
Mr. Brown. In connection with the almshouse report. 
The Witness. Yes; in connection with the almshouse re- 
port ; I could simply add the valuation without classifying. 
Air. Brown. Then, if you will be kind enough to do that 
between now and to-morrow morning if you can, so as to give 
it as near as possible. 
The Witness. [Referring to the almshouse report.] There 
is no valuation this year— 1882. 
Gov. Butler. I struggled with that myself awhile. 
The Witness. I presume that a competent board — those 
very men who made the valuation, Pedrick and Closson — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me, sir; they didn’t make an)' valua- 
tion, sir. Nobody made any valuation of these things that I 
have ever heard of. 
The Witness. I presume that the parties who made the 
figures there, as far as they could, could add the market value. 
I should not be able to do it. 
Q. (Mr. Brown.) Now, have you made an examination 
commencing with 1869? A. I have, sir. 
Q. What month in 1869 ? A. The first of October. That 
I carried down to the present time. That is, I mean down to 
the first of January, 1882. 
Q. Will you produce that sheet. [Sheet produced.] 
Gov. Butler. Let me look at that before you read it, so I 
can get an idea of what it is. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Are these dollars ? A. Those arc 
all quantities, sir, in pounds, except in the groceries column. 
You will find two columns in dollars and cents ; that is, grocer- 
ies and drugs. The milk is in quarts, the molasses in gallons. 
Q. What is the difference between the red and black figures? 
A. The black are purchases and the red are farm products. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2315 
Of course, that is not bjr any means all the farm products, be- 
cause I thought it would be difficult for me to estimate the value 
of 1,000 heads of cabbage, or of a quantity of carrots, which 
go by tons. I have a statement of them, but I don’t presume 
it would give the committee any light. 
Gov. Butler. I came to the same conclusion you did. 
The Witness. It is especially hard to determine, as they 
went into soups principally, and were not dealt out. 
Q. What, the cabbages? A. Yes, sir; I presume they 
went into soups, as it is the custom in institutions — cabbage, 
beets, turnips — ruta-bagas. 
Q. We used to have corn beef and cabbage. A. I think 
they don’t give them any to speak of. I think they mostly 
went into soups. 
Q. Sixteen thousand heads of cabbage would have made a 
good deal of soup. A. I don’t say that all the cabbage went 
into soups; I presume that the officers had some and the 
inmates had. It would be impossible, however, for me to find 
out. 
Q. It is impossible for you to find out? A. I cannot very 
well. 
Mr. Brown. Now, just go on through the account, com- 
mencing with October, 1869. 
The Witness. Now, this is simply quantities, regardless of 
cost; because in adding, if you choose to add in afterwards the 
farm products, why the valuation given there would differ some- 
what from the actual aggregate valuation ; and, furthermore, the 
cost to the State might be very different. It would be almost 
impossible for me to give the actual cost to the State. All these 
items were examined very thoroughly. I will give }rou the 
pounds from the first of October, 1869, to the first of October, 
1870. There were 260,000 pounds of flour. That is, actually 
used ; not purchased, but actually used. I took the inventory 
book — Perhaps I might as well explain to the committee how 
I arrived at the figures. That would be the better way. I 
take a sheet and head it flour, sugar, tea, coffee, etc., and on 
the first transverse line there I place the amount I found by the 
inventory to be on hand. For instance, on the first of October, 
1881, I find 40 barrels of flour on hand, 62£ pounds of —, 
40 bushels of oats, 1,600 pounds of sugar, etc. Then I take, 
month by month, the bills from the auditor’s office, and add 
them to it, until I get to the bottom, and then I place trans- 2316 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[ Apr. 
versely, again, on hand at the end of the year, and deduct that, 
and deducting that, the bottom line gives me the result, which I 
then tabulate. 
Gov. Butler. That would give the correct result. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.') So that you only have on this table 
the things actually used? A. That is, always provided that 
the reports were correct. 
Q. That the inventories were. A. I find every year a bill 
from Pedrick & Closson, who charge $100 for making that in- 
ventory, and I presume they make it correctly. I would like to 
make it every year, and I would make it correct, too. 
Gov. Butler. I thought it was a good job myself. 
The Witness. Now, how shall L go on? 
Gov. Butler. Just as Mr. Brown wants you to. 
Mr. Brown. Take each year. 
Gov. Butler. I will have it the way I want it directly. 
The Witness. I didn’t know but what this was simply for 
facts, and you might agree upon them as you go along. 
Mr. Brown. Go through each year. 
The Witness. Reading from table for 1869-70: 260,000 
pounds of flour; sugar, 11,453 pounds; tea, 2,282 pounds; 
coffee — as 1 found practically none, 1 didn’t put any down. 
There is some 60 or 70 pounds. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) No coffee in 1879? A. No coffee 
in 1879. [Reading.] Groceries, $1,740.56. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) The pounds you don’t know? A. 
No, sir; all kinds of little things: mace, nutmegs and every- 
thing you could think of. There was so much it would take a 
ten-yard piece of paper to classify them all on. [Reading.] 
Beans and pease, 17,645 pounds; salt meat,—that includes 
beef and pork, — purchased, 37,300 pounds. Now, shall 1 put 
in that which was raised? 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
The Witness. [Reading.] Farm product, 22,215 pounds; 
fresh meat, 43,683 pounds purchased ; 14,089 pounds farm pro- 
duct ; salt fish, 26,700 pounds; fresh fish, 10,630 pounds; mo- 
lasses, 2,401 gallons; rice, 2,824 pounds; rye meal and oat- 
meal,— in this summary 1 have taken them together; they 
went principally for gruels, — 1,600 pounds; potatoes, none 
purchased ; farm product, 150,000 pounds — that is, 60 pounds 
to the bushel. In fact, I reduced everything to pounds except 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2317 
molasses, and I might have reduced that by multiplying by 
— about pounds to the gallon. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Is it heavier than water? A pint 
is a pound the world ’round, I presume. It is about pounds 
to the gallon for water. A. About 8£ to 9 pounds for mo- 
lasses. 
Gov. Butler. 1 think it is. It generally goes to the bot- 
tom . 
The Witness. Of milk there was raised on the farm 84,152 
quarts. 
Gov. Butler. That is about the same weight as water. 
The Witness. Now, the butter and eggs for the yearsending 
1874 I could not classify here, because the produce of the farm 
was given in milk, and not how much was used for butter or 
how much was given to the inmates to drink. They simply say 
so many quarts of milk, and leave out how much butter they 
made. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) They didn’t say anything about but- 
ter, so you let it go in as milk? A. As milk. The drugs for 
this year cost $507.24. 
Mr. Brown. Now, take the next year, 1870-71. 
The Witness. [Reading.] Flour, 255,600 pounds, — the 
flour weighing 196 pounds to the barrel, it occurred in several 
instances that the end figure would be a four. And in case it 
was 255,604 pounds, I have left off the four pounds, because if 
it is to be divided into rations, the division would be so much 
facilitated by it. [Reading.] Sugar, 12,143 pounds; tea, 
2,247 pounds; coffee, 287 pounds; groceries, $881.23 worth; 
beans and pease, 20,536 pounds ; salt, meats, purchased, 51,200 
pounds; farm product, 12,576 pounds; fresh meat, pounds pur- 
chased, 44,694; farm product, 6,659 pounds; salt fish, 18,900 
pounds ; fresh fish — 
Gov. Butler. Is it worth while to go through this, Mr. 
Brown, in detail? The table will be published. Put in any 
tables that you have. I shall have to ask you to tabulate some. 
The Witness. The different 3’ears? 
Gov. Butler. I will tell you what I want when I get to my 
part. We can have them tabulated very soon ; all I want. 
Mr. Brown. Well, he has read some part of them, and 
there will be some questions I want to ask about specific items. 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, if you will tell me — give me, 
reducing the liquids to pounds at the rate of seven and oue-lialf 2318 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
pounds to the gallon, how man}' pounds of solid food, if you 
have it all there, was eaten by the inmates in 1862. 
The Witness. In 1869-70? 
Gov. Butler. In 1862, if you have it there. Add them 
right up here ; except you will have to skip where the gallons 
come in. 
The Witness. The flour was not reduced, either. 
Gov. Butler. Of course, these being matters of figures we 
can verify anything that is wrong, if there is anything wrong. 
The Witness. Shall I class sugar as food, and molasses? 
Gov. Butler. Certainly ; everything except drugs ; I don’t 
call those food. Mrs. Munroe lived on mush and molasses. 
The Witness. Would seven and one-half pounds be a fair 
estimate for molasses? 
Gov. Butler. Seven and a half pounds is the weight of a 
gallon of water. 
The Witness. And tea? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; it will be fair if we take it for both 
years. 
The Witness. How many pounds in a dozen of eggs? I 
believe it has been proposed to pass a law to sell eggs by 
weight. Some of the legislators ought to know how many 
pounds they calculate to make the standard. 
Gov. Butler. These gentlemen [the committee] have all 
been examining into that question; it has not come to the 
executive yet. I guess if you get three pounds you get enough. 
It will be as fair for one as for the other. 
The Witness. I will make a note of it so that I shall know 
hereafter. 
Gov. Butler. Shanghais and bantams weigh quite differ- 
ently. I want to make a comparison. It is just as fair for one 
as for the other. 
Mr. Mellen. It would be a pretty big egg to weigh a quarter 
of a pound. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, it would be a large egg, but there are 
eggs that weigh more than a quarter of a pound. We find them 
that weigh a half—Shanghai — which should be raised — a 
large-sized hen should be raised in such an establishment; more 
meat on the bones, and it don’t cost any more to keep them. 
The Witness. I have every item in there now, for 1862. 
Gov. Butler. All right. Now won’t you figure it up. 
Have you got the farm products in for 1862? 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2319 
The Witness. No, sir; I have not. 
Gov. Butler. Well, but we can get them, sir, by weight, 
substantially. The beef and pork — we can get them. 
The Witness. Shall I take the beef? 
Gov. Butler. Give the pounds, as near as you can, sir; we 
can get most of them. 
The Witness. Carrots and beets ? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
The Witness. I should not know what to put down for cab- 
bages— 16,900 heads of cabbage. 
Gov. Butler. Make an arbitrary for them, because it will be 
the same for both sides. 
The Witness. What does a head of cabbage weigh, on the 
average ; five pounds ? 
Gov. Butler. Not more than half that. Well, make them 
three pounds. 
The Witness. Cabbage, three pounds per head. 
Gov. Butler. Well, that is large ; make it two pounds. 
The Witness. Sixty pounds of beans to the bushel, barley 
fifty-six; then the barley and the rye would be about the same. 
Gov. Butler. Now try the same thing for 1882. 
[The witness completed his calculations, and continued his 
testimony as follows:] 
Q. (By Gov. Butler). You have made some calculations 
as to the gross amount of food and products that was consumed 
in 1862 and 1882 at Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Including everything that we could find, approximately, 
which were food products. Give us the gross amount for 1862? 
A. 1,329,137 pounds. 
Q. That includes the farm products and what was bought? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, how much did you find it was in 1882? A. 
1,132,769 pounds. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is in 1882? A. In 1882. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, will you tell us how much 
that was per man ? That is, only divide the two ? A. By that 
do you mean — there were only 22 employees in 1862, and there 
were 53 in 1882. 
Gov. Butler. That won’t make it more than even—just 
about even. 
The Witness. A little less than half as many. 
Q. How many inmates in 1882? A. 892. 2320 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And how many in 1862? A. 913 — a difference of 21. 
Gov. Butler. The difference would not tell. 
Mr. Brown. As these people are fed by the Commonwealth, 
it is no more than fair that the officers should be included. 
Gov. Butler. Of course. 
The AVitness. There is another thing that bothered me con- 
siderably. I opened every bill on the auditor’s file, and I found 
a great many instances of days’ labor. There is a days’ labor 
charged, and I presume the}' had to feed those workmen too. 
But we will take the inmates just as the register gives them. 
Gov. Butler. Or you may take them just even. 
The Witness. Why not call them 900? There are 892 in 
one year, and 913 in the other. 
Gov. Butler. Call them just 900, because that will give 
room for the employees. 
Mr. Brown. What is the result? 
Gov. Butler. Then you would make it in 1862 that there 
was 1,477— 
The Witness. Pounds. 
Q. Of some sort of food product, either liquid or meat or 
vegetable, consumed to the inmate? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And in 1882 you would get 1,258 pounds consumed to 
the inmate? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is less than in 1862? A. Less. 
If you wish to get the expense, 1 think I can do it. 
Gov. Butler. Now, divide that by 365, and then we shall 
get the pounds per day of meat and drink, so far as food goes, 
— three and one-half pounds, or 3.45. 
The Witness. And 4 3|b-. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Then in 1862 each inmate got per 
day four and a fraction pound of food? A. The fraction is so 
small — 
Q. Call it four plus. And in 1882, 3.45 pounds? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. They got half a pound a day more to eat in 1862 than 
they did in 1882. Now, sir, will you, the next time, bring me 
this : As near as you can, how many pounds of flour to the man 
was consumed in 1862, and how many pounds to the man was 
consumed in 1882? A. I will do that now. I presume it 
will not take long to do that now. 
Gov. Butler. You may do that now. 
The Witness. Yes ; I have it here. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2321 
Mr. Brown. Here are the figures for 1881-82. 
The Witness. I will put it right in the margin here; that 
will be as good a way as any other. By the same ratio? 
Gov. Butler. B)r the same ratio. That evens up the men 
— 900 each. 
Mr. Brown. It is actually 935 in 1862 and 945 in 1882. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; but there are now more officers than 
then. 
The Witness. Make it 900? 
Mr. Brown. Call it 900. 
The Witness. Do you want it by the day or the year? 
Gov. Butler. In the first place, I want to get it by the 
day. 
The Witness. Three hundred and five pounds divided by 
365. Eigldy-tbree one-hundredths of a pound in 1862 and one 
and oue-hundreth of a pound in 1882. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That you find to be the actual con- 
sumption? A. Actual consumption. 
Gov. Butler. I have got all I want. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Grothusen — 
Gov. Butler. Won’t you get me those figures. I want the 
exact expense of provisions, the cost, so far as you can ; reckon 
the farm products at the same price that was paid. 
Mr. Brown. Carrying out all these things not purchased at 
the same price as those purchased. 
The Witness. Well, the obstacle in the wav there would be 
that there were no roots of any kind, no cabbages or any such 
thing produced at all in 1882. 
Gov. Butler. Well, then, those farm products,— all 3rou 
can do is to leave them out both ways. 
The Witness. All I will have to do is, to make a duplicate 
of this table and put in dollars and cents where it is in pounds 
here. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; carry it out. 
The Witness. Now, would it meet your use to have on a 
separate sheet the value, or to put it underneath these quanti- 
ties in each one? 
Gov. Butler. I want to get the general value. 
The Witness. Not specifying items? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care. I want the aggregates. Give 
me the aggregates, and you may put it in any form you please. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, there are some computations to 2322 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apt*. 
be added to this first table which we have offered here ; and if 
there is no objection on the part of counsel, we will call it Ex- 
hibit — perhaps Exhibit A. 
Gov. Butler. There are so many others that you might be- 
gin at the other end. 
The Chairman. We have marked something “ A.” 
Gov. Butler. Call it “ W.” 
Mr. Brown. Suppose you take the name of the expert, and 
call it “ Grothusen No. 1.” 
Gov. Butler. Take X, Z, Y, W. 
Mr. Brown. The only difficulty is that we may exhaust the 
alphabet. 
The Witness. The others are only what we call rehashes. 
Mr. Brown. Take the next table. The first one was a com- 
parison between 1862 and 1882. Now you can add on those 
different things that the Governor spoke about, and then we 
will submit that to the committee. AYell, then, we will under- 
stand that the 1862 and the 1882 comparisons are marked “X.” 
And this is the table of all the purchases and farm products 
excepting the roots, from 1869 to 1882, from October 1st, inclu- 
sive. 
Gov. Butler. That is from 1869 — 
The Witncss. Yes, sir; from 1869, chronologically down. 
Mr. Brown. Just mark that “ AY.” 
The AVitness. You want the values added to this, too, I un- 
derstand ? 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
[Following is the exhibit marked tk AAr.”] 1883.] 
HOUSE —No, 300. 
2323 
OCTOBER TO OCTOBER. 
Flour. 
Pounds. 
Sugar. 
Pounds. 
Tea. 
Pounds. 
Coffee. 
Pounds. 
Groceries. 
Dollars. Cts. 
Beans and 
Pease. 
Pounds. 
Salt Meat. 
Pounds. 
Fresh Meat. 
Pounds. 
Salt Fish. 
Pounds. 
1869 to 1870, purchases, 
260,4)00 
11,453 
2,282 
f 1,740 56 
17,645 
37,300 
43,683 
26,700 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
22,215 
14,089 
- 
1870 to 1871, purchases, 
255,600 
12,143 
2.247 
287 
881 23 
20,536 
51,200 
44,694 
18,900 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
12,576 
6,659 
- 
1871 to 1872, purchases, 
333,000 
13,421 
2,419 
537 
1,182 47 
20,689 
37,000 
64.176 
18,615 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
20,610 
7,846 
- 
1872 to 1873, purchases, 
250,684 
15,441 
2,203 
471 
1,316 34 
20,470 
37,400 
74,960 
16,700 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
19,284 
5,794 
- 
1873 to 1874, purchases, 
330,260 
17,039 
2,943 
411 
1,083 60 
28,452 
30,400 
72,240 
17,300. 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
18,323 
5,390 
- 
1874 to 1875, purchases, 
304,388 
25,179 
2,744 
3,008 
1,406 65 
22,468 
30,500 
58,300 
18,400 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
8,217 
8,891 
- 
1875 to 1876, purchases, 
297,724 
24,064 
3.217 
5,841 
1,169 06 
13,076 
34,700 
68,900 
21,650 
“ 41 farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
15,091 
2,192 
- 
1876 to 1877, purchases, 
318,500 
30,069 
4,101 
5,911 
1,783 88 
18,200 
27,900 
70,520 
20,050 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
12,698 
7,"78 
- 
1877 to 1878, purchases, 
284,000 
31,576 
4,068 
5,260 
1,455 19 
21,635 
28.900 
68,527 
16,525 
44 “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
7,569 
14,505 
- 
1878 to 1879, purchases, 
271,260 
32,003 
4,959 
4,671 
1,113 34 
18,841 
39,000 
82,753 
19,117 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
15,659 
9,043 
- 
1879 to 1880, purchases, 
318,000 
31,170 
5.513 
4,741 
1,518 40 
17,138 
42,600 
87,815 
17,900 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
9.521 
11,879 
- 
1880 to 1881, purchases, 
324,000 
36,973 
5,539 
8,339 
913 99 
17,325 
40,800 
95,314 
19,200 
“ 41 farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
12,434 
1,711 
- 
1881 to 1882, purchases, 
328,000 
34,162 
5,727 
7,623 
1,347 22 
18,600 
43,800 
88,528 
23,245 
44 44 farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
15,984 
7,242 
[W.] 
Summary of Food Quantities, October 1, 1869, to October 1, 1882. 2324 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
OCTOBER TO OCTOBER. 
Fresh Fish. 
Pounds. 
Molasses. 
Gallons. 
Rice. 
Pounds. 
Rye and 
Oatmeal. 
Pounds. 
Potatoes. 
Pounds. 
Milk. 
Quarts. 
Butter. 
Pounds. 
Eggs. 
Dozens. 
Drugs. 
Dollars. Cts. 
18G9 to 1870, purchases, 
10,630 
2,401 
2,824 
1,600 
_ 
_ 
_ 
_ 
$507 24 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
150,000 
84,152 
- 
856 
- 
1870 to 1871, purchases, 
30,737 
2,156 
8,539 
2,200 
- 
- 
- 
- 
339 62 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
210,000 
89,812 
- 
1,079 
- 
1871 to 1872, purchases, 
32,223 
1,787 
10,518 
3,150 
- 
- 
- 
- 
642 43 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
150,000 
92,364 
- 
951 
- 
1872 to 1873, purchases, 
30,179 
1,613 
7,289 
3,250 
- 
- 
- 
- 
814 82 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
150,000 
92,228 
- 
1,563 
- 
1873 to 1874, purchases, 
30,300 
1,721 
5,742 
5,500 
- 
- 
- 
- 
863 23 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
186,000 
94,852 
- 
1,247 
- 
1874 to 1875, purchases, 
29,446 
475 
5,968 
5,090 
- 
30,624 
4,451 
60 
1,220 92 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
180,000 
101,924 
- 
952 
- 
1875 to 187G, purchases, 
34,225 
319 
4,470 
9,960 
- 
57,835 
11,678 
274 
1,085 37 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
108,000 
95,288 
- 
1,077 
- 
187G to 1877, purchases, 
35,653 
663 
3,565 
12,500 
- 
53,089 
15,074 
1,633 
2,189 23 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
150,000 
101,254 
- 
831 
- 
1877 to 1878, purchases, 
35,600 
642 
2,695 
12.900 
27,060 
58,599 
12,192 
1,748 
1,597 56 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
180,000 
97,620 
- 
772 
- 
1878 to 1879, purchases, 
35,350 
952 
7,038 
11,200 
- 
58,882 
15,101 
937 
1,691 44 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
204,000 
102,048 
- 
632 
- 
1879 to 1880, purchases, 
36,424 
973 
4,945 
10,700 
- 
58,815 
16,058 
1,524 
2,113 25 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
210,000 
82,160 
- 
963 
- 
1880 to 1881, purchases, 
36,132 
906 
12,399 
14,500 
- 
58,558 
18,467 
1,047 
1,661 65 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
111,600 
82,512 
- 
863 
- 
1881 to 1882, purchases, 
33,117 
1,041 
10,633 
12,900 
- 
39,852 
16,460 
934 
1,656 52 
“ “ farm products, 
“ 
123,960 
94,176 
- 
628 
- 
Summary of Food Quantities — Concluded. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2325 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30, I860, 
to Oct. 1,1870. 
[Inmates, . . . 724.] cost. 
Flour,* 260,000 lbs $9,298 50 
Corn, 66,976 lbs 1,298 00 
Middlings, 3,200 lbs 70 30 
Rye, 560 lbs 17 70 
Shorts, 41 \ tons 1,220 90 
Oats, 418 bush 277 57 
Hay, 2 tonsf 52 05 
Malt, 4 bush 12 00 
C. S. Meal, 5 tons 210 00 
Sugar, 11,453 lbs 1,584 59 
Tea, 2,282 lbs 1,774 00 
Groceries, various 1,740 56 
Beans and Pease, 17,645 lbs $549 97 
Salt Beef, 31,300 lbs 2,615 52 
Salt Tongues, 6,000 lbs 483 40 
Fresh Meat,* 43,683 lbs 4,761 80 
Fish, salt, 26,700 lbs 1,055 70 
Fish, fresh, 10,630 lbs 494 66 
Molasses, 2,401 gals., 1,292 25 
Rice, 2,824 lbs 242 72 
Oatmeal, Cr. Wheat, Rye Meal, 1;600 lb3. . 84 50 
Drugs, various 507 24 
Salt Pork, 11,415 lbs.§ 
* Per day, 712.33 lbs., or $25.47. 
11,125 lbs. on hand; 9.8 tons, $25. 
X Of the above, 24 head of cattle, estimated at 14,400 lbs., cost $1,969.00. 
§ On hand, 1869, 10,800 lbs. 
Consumption of Food at Teivksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30,1870 
to Oct. 1,1871. 
[Inmates, . . . 749.] cost. 
Flour, 255,600 lbs $9,590 85 
Corn, 133,500 lbs 2,077 59 
Middlings, \ ton 20 00 
Rye, 38 bush 38 00 
Shorts, 50 tons 1,356 70 
Oats, 496 bush 313 10 
Hay, 18 tons ....... 357 00 
Malt, 8 bush 16 00 
C. S. Meal, 7 tons 262 00 
(Sugar, 12,143 lbs 1,463 31 2326 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cost. 
Tea, 2,247 lbs $1,455 95 
Coffee, 287 lbs 63 58 
Groceries, various 881 23 
Beans and Pease, 20,536 lbs 728 80 
Salt Beef, 46,000 lbs 3,449 98 
Salt Tongues, 5,200 lbs 391 60 
Fresh Meat,* 44,694 lbs 3,908 45 
Fish, salt, 18,900 lbs 610 75 
Fish, fresh, 30,737 lbs 1,374 20 
Molasses, 2,156 gals 911 42 
Rice, 8,539 lbs 663 12 
Oatmeal, Cr. Wheat, Rye Meal, 2,200 lbs. . 101 90 
Drugs, various 339 62 
* Of the above, 17 head of cattle, estimated at 10,750 lbs., cost §848.00. 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30, 1871, 
to Oct. 1,1872. 
[Inmates, . . . 768.] cost. 
Flour, 333,000 lbs 114,26138 
Corn, 117,600 lbs 1,631 60 
Middlings, 1,050 lbs 21 00 
Rye, 2,912 lbs 52 90 
Shorts, 45£ tons . 1,135 00 
Oats, 548 bush 359 44 
Hay, 83 tons 1,717 28 
Malt, 6 bush 11 00 
Sugar, 13,421 lbs 1,546 69 
Tea, 2,419 lbs. * 1,264 62 
Coffee, 537 lbs 117 17 
Groceries, various 1,182 47 
Beans and Pease, 20,689 lbs 875 58 
Salt Beef, 29,400 lbs 1,796 30 
Salt Tongues, 7,600 lbs 600 00 
Fresh Meat, 64,176 lbs. ..... 5,275 37 
Salt Fish, 18,615 lbs 717 05 
Fresh Fish, 32,223 lbs 1,424 10 
Molasses, 1,787 gals 887 63 
Rice, 10,518 lbs 878 37 
Oatmeal, B. Wheat, 3,150 lbs 134 75 
Drugs, various ... ... 642 43 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2327 
Consumption of Food at Teivksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30,1872, 
to Oct. 1,1873. 
[Inmates, _ . . 816.] cost. 
Flour, 250,684 lbs ■ $11,038 25 
Corn, 123,424 lbs 1,730 00 
Rye, 840 lbs 17 11 
Shorts, 33| tons 757 00 
Oats, 450 bush 266 50 
Haj', 27 tons, 627 00 
Malt, 14 bush 26 50 
Sugar, 15,441 lbs 1,640 94 
Tea, 2,203 lbs 1,286 73 
Coffee, 471 lbs. Ill 63 
Groceries, various 1,316 34 
Beans and Pease, 20,470 lbs 861 83 
Salt Beef, 30,600 lbs 1,700 80 
Salt Tongues, 6,800 lbs 376 30 
Fresh Meat, 74,969 lbs 6,612 56 
Salt Fish, 16,700 lbs 628 50 
Fresh Fish, 30,179 lbs 1,345 96 
Molasses, 1,613 gals 678 62 
Rice, 7,289 lbs. . 644 98 
Oatmeal, C. Wt., 3,250 lbs. .... 142 51 
Drugs, various 814 82 
Consumption of Food at Teivksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30,1873, 
to Oct 1, 1874. 
[Inmates, . . . 885.] cost. 
Flour, 330,260 lbs $ 11,644 00 
Corn, 100,800 lbs 1,498 00 
Rye, 1,440 lbs 29 40 
Shorts, tons ....... 1,351 75 
Oats, 500 bush 345 50 
Hay, 97|- tons 2,212 02 
Malt, 10 bush 20 00 
C. S. Meal, 2 tons 60 00 
Sugar, 17,039 lbs 1,709 90 
Tea, 2,943 lbs 1,410 22 
Coffee, 411 lbs 135 46 
Groceries, various . . . . . . 1,083 60 
Beans and Pease, 28,452 lbs 1,033 08 
Salt Beef, 30,400 lbs 1,671 70 
Fresh Meat, 72,240 lbs 5,703 59 
Salt Fish, 17,300 lbs 619 40 2328 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Cost. 
Fresh Fish, 30,300 lbs $1,337 96 
Molasses, 1,721 gals 829 54 
Rice, 5,742 lbs 435 67 
Oatmeal, &c., 5,500 lbs 245 38 
Drugs, various 863 23 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30, 1874 
to Oct. 1,1875. 
[Inmates, . . 844 ] co 
Flour, 304,388 lbs. . . . . . . $9,909 25 
Corn, 118,216 lbs 1,963 60 
Rye None. 
Shorts, 21 tons . 548 56 
Oats, 390 bush 288 00 
Hay, 118 tons 2,609 04 
Malt, 10 bush 36 00 
C. S. Meal None. 
Sugar, 25,179 lbs 2,494 21 
Tea, 2,744 lbs 1,184 08 
Coffee, 3,008 lbs 829 63 
Butter, 4,451 lbs. .... $1,420 14 
Eggs, 60 doz 16 74 
Groceries, various .... 1,406 65 
2,843 53 
Beans and Pease, 22,468 lbs 749 92 
Salt Beef, 30,300 lbs 1,707 25 
Salt Tongues, 200 lbs. 23 00 
Fresh Meat, 58,301 lbs 4,087 52 
Salt Fish, 18,400 lbs 737 00 
Fresh Fish, 29,446 lbs 1,348 04 
Molasses, 475 gals 248 50 
Rice, 5,968 lbs 511 94 
Oatmeal, &c., 5,090 lbs 224 27 
Milk, 30,624 qts. 1,526 15 
Drugs, various 1,220 92 
Potatoes, 250 bush 170 00 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30,1875, 
to Oct. 1,1876. 
[Inmates, . . . 918.] cost. 
Flour, 297,724 lbs $9,925 25 
Corn, 122,080 lbs 1,585 48 
Rye. None. 
Shorts, 50 tons 1,177 22 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2329 
Cost. 
Oats, 570 bush $304 00 
Hay, 96 tons 1,950 79 
Malt, 6 bush 8 50 
C. S. Meal None. 
Sugar, 24,064 lbs 2,320 36 
Tea, 3,217 lbs 1,182 03 
Coffee, 5,841 lbs 1,723 73 
Butter, 11,678 lbs $3,082 66 
Eggs, 274 doz 67 51 
Groceries, various .... 1,169 06 
4,319 29 
Beans and Pease, 13,076 lbs 380 44 
Salt Beef, 33,900 lbs 2,256 00 
Salt Pork, 800 lbs 65 00 
Fresh Meat, 68,930 lbs 4,531 18 
Salt Fish, 21,650 lbs 790 75 
Fresh Fish, 34,225 lbs. 1,518 13 
Molasses, 319 gals 187 23 
Rice, 4,470 lbs 329 61 
Oatmeal, &c , 9,960 lbs 323 26 
Milk, 57,835 qts 2,778 23 
Drugs, various 1,085 37 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30,1876, 
to Oct. 1,1877. 
[Inmates, . . . 924.] cost. 
Flour, 318,500 lbs $12,199 50 
Corn, 124,712 lbs. . * 1,518 92 
Rye ......... None. 
Shorts None. 
Oats, 530 bush 300 50 
Hay, tons 2,871 26 
Malt None. 
C. S. Meal None. 
Sugar, 30,069 lbs 3,289 68 
Tea, 4,101 lbs 1,563 08 
Coffee, 5,911 lbs. . ... . . 1,659 92 
Butter, 15,074 lbs $3,061 97 
Eggs, 1,633 doz 392 71 
Groceries, various . . . . 1,783 88 
5,238 56 
Beans and Pease, 18,200 lbs 661 18 
Potatoes, 27,480 lbs. . .... . . 473 65 
Salt Beef, 27,800 lbs 1,870 00 2330 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Cost. 
Salt Tongues, 100 lbs. $12 00 
Fresh Meat, 70,520 lbs 4,940 53 
Salt Fish, 20,050 lbs 618 30 
Fresh Fish, 35,653 lbs 1,585 63 
Molasses, 663 gals . 375 60 
Rice, 3,565 lbs 271 93 
Oatmeal, 6,100 lbs 
Rye Meal, 6,400 lbs. 
12,500 lbs. 
$261 68 
114 32 
376 00 
Drugs, various 2,189 23 
Milk, 53,089 qts 2,302 38 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30,1877 
to Oct. 1,1878. 
[Inmates . . . 943.] cost. 
Flour, 284,000 lbs $8,798 00 
Corn, 125,720 lbs 1,310 74 
Rye, 2,240 lbs 33 90 
Shorts, 48 tons 1,035 45 
Oats, 850 bush 345 00 
Hay, 106 tons 1,985 36 
Malt None. 
C. S. Meal None. 
Sugar, 31,576 lbs 2,812 51 
Tea, 4,068 lbs 1,203 33 
Coffee, 5,260 lbs • . . 1,137 05 
Chiccory, 550 lbs 55 00 
Butter, 12,192 lbs $2,299 67 
Eggs, 1,748 doz. .... 310 10 
Groceries, various .... 1,455 19 
4,064 96 
Beans and Pease, 21,635 lbs 610 83 
Potatoes, 27,060 lbs 268 37 
Salt Beef, 28,600 lbs 1,659 50 
Salt Tongues, 300 lbs. 34 00 
Fresh Meat, 68,527 lbs 4,411 78 
Salt Fish, 16,525 lbs 562 00 
Fresh Fish, 35,600 lbs 1,543 56 
Molasses, 642 gals 372 90 
Rice, 2,695 lbs 210 44 
Oatmeal, 8,485 lbs 
Rye Meal, 4,415 lbs- 
12,900 lbs. 
$253 95 
. 92 85 
346 80 
Drugs, various, 1,597 56 
Milk, 58,599 qts. ...... . . . 2,344 16 1883. 
IK) US ft — No. 300. 
2331 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30,1878, 
to Oct. 1,1879. 
[Inmates . . . 945.] cost. 
Flour, 271,260 lbs $7,079 62 
Corn, 156,464 lbs 1,468 00 
Rye, 131 bush 94 55 
Shorts, 54 tons 806 48 
Oats, 900 bush 300 50 
Hay None. 
Malt None. 
C. S. Meal None. 
Sugar, 32,003 lbs 2,555 39 
Tea, 4,959 lbs 1,208 31 
Coffee, 4,671 lbs 712 21 
Cihccory, 485 lbs 53 30 
Butter, 15,101 lbs $2,297 12 
Eggs, 937 doz 152 82 
Groceries, various .... 1,113 34 
3,563 28 
Beans and Pease, 18,841 lbs 466 52 
Potatoes, 255 bush 243 53 
Salt Beef, 38,800 lbs 2,154 00 
Salt Tongues, 300 lbs. $35 50 
Salt Pork, 1,400 lbs 70 00 
Fresh Fish, 35,350 lbs. 1,552 80 
Molasses, 952 gals 391 48 
Rice, 7,038 lbs 503 03 
Oatmeal, 10,110 lbs. 
Rye Meal, 1,090 lbs. 
11,200 lbs. 
$276 00 
9 75 
285 75 
Drugs, various 1,691 44 
Fresh Meat, 82,753 lbs 4,729 71 
Salt Fish, 19,117 lbs 462 47 
Milk, 58,882 qts 2,104 47 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30, 1879, 
to Oct. 1,1880. 
[Inmates . . . 917.] cost. 
Flour, 318,000 lbs $10,948 27 
Corn, 91,448 lbs 977 97 
Rye, 95 bush 96 58 
Shorts, tons 926 74 
Oats, 980 bush 359 50 
Hay None. 2332 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Malt None. 
C. S. Meal, None. 
Sugar, 31,170 lbs $2,892 33 
Tea, 5,513 lbs 1,626 61 
Coffee, 4,741 lbs 799 61 
Chiccory, 400 lbs 39 50 
Butter, 16,058 lbs $3,082 60 
Eggs 274 38 
Groceries, various . . . . 1,518 40 
4,875 38 
Beans and Pease, 17,138 lbs 439 58 
Potatoes None. 
Salt Beef, 42,600 lbs 2,373 00 
Molasses, 973 gals 433 20 
Salt Fish, 17,900 lbs 463 05 
Fresh Fish, 36,424 lbs 1,582 68 
Rice, 4,945 lbs 366 49 
Cost.. 
Oatmeal, 9,200 lbs. ' 
Rye Meal, 1,500 lbs.. 
$282 50 
32 50 
10,700 lbs 
315 00 
Milk, 58,815 qts. 1,824 44 
Fresh Meat, 87,845 lbs 4,775 84 
Drugs, various 2,113 25 
Consumption of Food at Tewksburi/ Almshouse from Sept. 30,1880, 
to Oct. 1,1881. 
[Inmates . . . 919.] cost. 
Flour, 323,988 lbs $9,718 75 
Corn, 103,376 lbs 1,125 00 
Rye, 17'bush 18 20 
Shorts, tons 1,237 37 
Oats, 935 bush 41975 
Hay, tons 249 66 
Malt, 10 bush 11 20 
C. S. Meal None. 
Sugar, 36,973 lbs 3,070 56 
Tea, 5,539 lbs 1,519 56 
Coffee, 8,339 lbs 1,241 50 
Butter, 18,467 lbs $3,437 20 
Eggs, 1,047 doz 232 58 
Groceries, various .... 913 99 
4,583 77 
Beans and Pease, 17,325 lbs 546 71 
Salt Beef, 40,600 lbs 2,328 50 
Salt Tongue, 200 lbs.], . , , , , , 15 50 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2333 
Salt Fish, 19,200 lbs $608 78 
Fresh Fish, 36,132 lbs 1,592 37 
Fresh Meat, 95,314 lbs 5,509 44 
Molasses, 906 gals 412 38 
Rice, 12,399 lbs. . . . . . . 764 10 
Cost. 
Oatmeal, 10,500 lbs.' 
Rye Meal, 4,000 lbs.. 
14,500 lbs. 
$308 25 
- 87 60 
395 85 
Milk, 58,558 qts 1,895 13 
Drugs, various . . . , . . . 1,661 65 
Consumption of Food at Tewksbury Almshouse from Sept. 30, 1881, 
to Oct. 1,1882. 
[Inmates . . . 895.] cost. 
Flour, 327,908 lbs $12,01850 
Corn, 92,400 lbs 1,349 50 
Rye None. 
Shorts, 57 J tons 949 83 
Oats, 340 bush 202 50 
Hay None. 
Malt, 10 bush 17 00 
C. S. Meal, 10 tons 281 00 
Sugar, 34,162 lbs 2,972 45 
Tea, 5,727 lbs - . . . 1,490 31 
Coffee, 7,623 lbs. 1,104 49 
Butter, 16,460 lbs $3,446 91 
Eggs, 934 doz 225 02 
Groceries, various .... 1,347 22 
5,019 15 
Beans and Pease, 18,600 lbs 919 90 
Salt Beef, 43,800 lbs 3,045 00 
Salt Fish, 23,245 lbs 831 55 
Fresh Fish, 33,117 lbs 1,454 51 
Fresh Meat, 88,528 lbs 6,465 04 
Molasses, 1,041 gals 511 84 
Rice, 10,633 lbs 751 35 
Oatmeal, 9,300 lbs. 
Rye Meal, 3,600 lbs. 
12,900 lbs. 
1329 25 
77 60 
Milk, 39,852 qts. 1,295 19 
Drugs, various 1,656 52 
406 85 2334 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apf. 
OCTOBER TO OCTOBER. 
Flour. 
Sugar. 
Tea. 
Coffee. 
Groceries. 
Beans and 
Pease. 
Salt Meat. 
Fresh Meat. 
Salt Fish. 
1869 to 1870, purchases, 
$9,298 50 
$1,584 59 
$1,774 00 
— 
$1,740 56 
$549 97 
$3,098 92 
$4,761 80 
$1,055 70 
“ 41 farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
3,650 00 
1,408 90 
- 
1870 to 1871, purchases, 
9,590 85 
1,463 34 
1,455 95 
$63 58 
881 23 
728 80 
3,841 58 
3,908 45 
610 75 
“ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,125 00 
599 31 
- 
1871 to 1872, purchases, 
14,261 38 
1,546 69 
1,264 62 
117 17 
1,182 47 
875 58 
2,396 30 
5,275 37 
717 05 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
2,000 00 
627 68 
- 
1872 to 1873, purchases, 
11,038 25 
1,640 94 
1,286 73 
Ill 63 
1,316 34 
861 83 
2,077 10 
6,612 56 
628 50 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,928 40 
492 49 
- 
1873 to 1874, purchases, 
11,644 00 
1,709 90 
1,410 22 
135 46 
1,083 60 
1,033 08 
1,671 70 
5,703 59 
619 40 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,832 30 
431 20 
- 
1874 to 1875, purchases, 
9,909 25 
2,494 21 
1,184 08 
829 63 
1,406 65 
749 92 
1,730 25 
4,087 52 
737 00 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
821 70 
622 37 
- 
1875 to 1876, purchases, 
9,925 25 
2,320 36 
1,182 03 
1,723 73 
1,169 06 
380 44 
2,321 00 
4,531 18 
790 75 
“ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,509 10 
.153 44 
- 
1876 to 1877, purchases, 
12,199 50 
3,289 68 
1,563 08 
1,659 92 
1,783 88 
661 18 
1,882 00 
4,940 53 
618 30 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,269 80 
495 46 
- 
1877 to 1878, purchases, 
8,798 00 
2,812 51 
1,203 33 
1,137 05 
1,455 19 
610 83 
1,693 50 
4,411 78 
562 00 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
756 90 
1,015 35 
- 
1878 to 1879, purchases, 
7,079 62 
2,555 39 
1,208 31 
712 21 
1,113 34 
466 52 
2,259 50 
4,729 71 
462 47 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,252 72 
542 58 
- 
1879 to 1880, purchases, 
10,948 27 
2,892 33 
1,626 61 
799 61 
1,518 40 
439 58 
2,373 00 
4,775 84 
463 05 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
952 10 
950 32 
- 
1880 to 1881, purchases, 
9,718 75 
3,070 56 
1,519 56 
1,241 50 
913 99 
546 71 
2,344 00 
5,509 44 
608 78 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,243 40 
119 77 
_ 
1881 to 1882, purchases, 
12,018 50 
2,972 45 
1,490 31 
1,104 49 
1,347 22 
919 90 
3,045 00 
6,465 04 
831 55 
“ “ farm products, 
— 
“ 
— 
-- 
1,598 40 
506 94 
- 
Summary of Food Values, October I, 1869, October I, 1882. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2335 
OCTOBER TO OCTOBER. 
Fresh Fish. 
Molasses. 
Rice. 
Rye and 
Oatmeal. 
Potatoes. 
Milk. 
Butter. 
Eggs. 
Drugs. 
1809 to 1870, purchases, 
$194 66 
$1,292 25 
$242 72 
$84 50 
- 
_ 
_ 
— 
$507 24 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
$2,000 00 
$3,366 08 
- 
$128 40 
- 
1870 to 1871, purchases, 
1,374 20 
911 42 
663 12 
101 90 
- 
- 
- 
- 
339 62 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
2,450 00 
3,592 48 
- 
161 85 
- 
1871 to 1872, purchases, 
1,424 10 
887 63 
878 37 
134 95 
- 
- 
- 
- 
642 43 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
2,000 00 
3,694 56 
- 
142 65 
- 
1872 to 1873, purchases, 
1,345 96 
678 62 
644 98 
142 51 
- 
- 
- 
- 
814 82 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
2,000 00 
3,689 12 
- 
234 45 
- 
1873 to 1874, purchases, 
1,337 96 
829 54 
435 67 
245 38 
- 
- 
- 
- 
863 23 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
2,325 00 
3,794 08 
- 
187 05 
- 
1874 to 1875, purchases, 
1,348 04 
248 50 
511 94 
224 27 
- 
1,526 15 
$1,420 14 
16 74 
1,220 92 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
2,100 00 
5,096 20 
- 
238 00 
- 
1875 to 1876, purchases, 
1,518 13 
187 23 
329 61 
323 26 
- 
2,778 23 
3,082 66 
67 57 
1,085 37 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,800 00 
4,764 40 
- 
236 54 
- 
1876 to 1877, purchases, 
1,585 63 
375 60 
271 93 
376 00 
- 
2,302 38 
3,061 97 
392 71 
2,189 23 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,200 00 
4,050 16 
- 
207 50 
- 
1877 to 1878, purchases, 
1,543 56 
372 90 
210 44 
346 80 
268 37 
2,344 16 
2,299 67 
310 10 
1,597 56 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,750 00 
3,904 80 
- 
138 96 
- 
1878 to 1879, purchases, 
1,552 80 
391 48 
503 03 
285 75 
- 
2,104 47 
2,297 12 
152 82 
1,691 44 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,800 00 
3,571 68 
- 
94 80 
- 
1879 to 1880, purchases, 
1,582 68 
433 20 
366 49 
315 00 
- 
1,824 44 
3,082 60 
274 38 
2,113 25 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
2,100 00 
2,875 60 
- 
163 71 
- 
1880 to 1881, purchases, 
1,592 37 
412 38 
764 10 
395 85 
- 
1,895 13 
3,437 20 
232 58 
1,661 65 
“ “ farm products, 
- 
- 
- 
- 
1,674 00 
2,887 92 
- 
198 49 
- 
1881 to 1882, purchases, 
1,454 51 
511 84 
751 35 
406 85 
- 
1,295 19 
3,446 91 
225 02 
1,656 52 
“ “ farm products, 
— 
- 
- 
1,859 40 
3,296 16 
144 44 
*" 
Summary of Food Values — Concluded. 2336 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Have you any table showing values ? 
A. I have a table of complete values for each year, and it has 
on the upper right-hand corner the number of inmates, accord- 
ing to the register. 
Q. Very well, take the year 1869? A. They are added up 
and are only values of different articles — the cost. 
Q. Have you a table showing the values in 1862, except as 
shown here on the list already submitted? A. No, sir ; that 
is the only 1862 I have. 
Q. Then goto the one commencing 1869-70? A. What is 
your question. 
Q. My question is, Have you a table showing the values in 
that year? A. Yes, sir; the actual amount paid. Not how 
much per pound, but the cost according to the auditor’s bills. 
Q. And the average number of inmates for each year — how 
did you get that? A. The average number of inmates 1 took 
from the printed report up to 1874 ; and from the daily state- 
ment on daily sheets handed to me by Mr. Marsh, daily 
averages for each da}’, every night’s account, added up and 
divided by 365. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) From the official reports? A. I 
have not compared them with the official reports. 
Gov. Butler. 1 think you should do that. 
The Witness. It won’t take but a few minutes. 
Mr. Brown. Now I want to put these.in. As I understand, 
they are all complete except adding up. 
The Witness. I have not added them. 
Gov. Butler. Better have them all added. 
The Witness. Now, then, when you come to this I should 
like to ask the sense of the committee about this. In these 
tables, year by year, I have put in shorts, oats, cottonseed-meal, 
etc. Now those are all items which I have eliminated in my 
calculations about food, because they are not food. Corn I 
have put in because I understand that was ordered ground in 
the mill, and is recorded so on the books. I should have to 
strike out, then, these items there of cottonseed-meal, shorts and 
oats. I started this on a much more comprehensive scale. 
There are items in here that are not properly items of food, 
which I have eliminated from that final report, which the Gov- 
ernor can see by looking it over and comparing it. For instance, 
there is rye. As I understand it, rye was principally used for 
the adulteration of coffee. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2337 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Witness. Ten or twenty bushels ; it was simply used 
to add to the boiling coffee, probably. 
Gov. Butler. You would contradict the cook ; that won’t 
do. 
The Witness. That is generally what rye is used for, 
isn’t it? 
Gov. Butler. No, no. We make pudding up in our house, 
a great deal — rye and indian. 
The Witness. Well, here is rye and there is oats and shorts ; 
probably you would not use cottonseed-meal for food. 
Mr. Brown. Take your shorts — 
Gov. Butler. Your shorts would not go in, but I should 
think your oatmeal would. 
The Witness. Very well. 
Gov. Butler. The oats should be taken out; they are for 
horses. 
Mr. Brown. Then just go through these statements one 
after the other so we can have them go into the report. Begin 
with 1869-70. 
The Witness. Now, what do you wish me to do, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Just give us the estimate you have on each as 
to the value, commencing with 1869-70. 
The Witness. [Reading.] Flour, $9,282.50 ; corn, $1,298; 
sugar, $1,584.59 ; tea, $1,774 ; groceries, $1,740.56 ; beans and 
pease, $549.97; salt beef, $2,615.52; salt tongues, $483.40; 
fresh meat, $4,761.80. Here I shall have to explain in regard 
to fresh meat. I found bills in the auditor’s department for so 
many beeves ; and also butchers’ bills for slaughtering. And I 
looked over and found that there were fourteen head of cattle 
butchered that were not raised on the place, but were purchased 
at Brighton. I saw the bills for them. I figured them at 600 
pounds per head, which I think is a fair calculation, and took 
for the market price the same price whatever they paid for 
them. That would give the institution the benefit of the por- 
tion which they sold — the hides, etc. I made no allowance 
for that, which would bring up the cost of the food so much 
more than it actually was, because they got the drawback on 
the tallow they sold for soap stock, and the hides. There were 
two items. Twice they tried the experiment of buying beef at 
Brighton. I have made some inquiries, and I find that 600 
pounds of beef was a good estimate. It only occurred at two 2338 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
periods. At one time they bought twenty-four head, and at 
another time sixteen head. [Reading.] Salt fish, $1,055.70; 
fresh fish, $494.66. 
Gov. Butler. Why should you spend time to put this in? 
1 don’t think it is necessary. 
Mr. Brown. 1 want simply to explain this to the committee. 
The Witness. [Reading.] Molasses, $1,292.25; rice, 
$242.72 ; rye meal, oatmeal, cracked wheat, $84.50; drugs, 
$507.24. That completes one sheet, leaving out hay, cotton- 
seed and shorts. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, you have made that examina- 
tion of all the bills, and you have a schedule for each year? 
A. Precisely the same way; yes, sir. Every bill in the 
auditor’s office was opened and looked at, and passed through 
my hands. 
Q. Now, just how many sheets are there? A. There must 
be thirteen, I should judge ; thirteen sheets for thirteen years. 
Q. And every bill in the auditor’s office you have examined? 
A. I have examined them and placed them under these head- 
ings. Of course there are a great many bills that don’t appear 
there. 
Mr. Brown. Then without going over and reading all these, 
I will submit these as they are in this form. Perhaps your 
Excellency would like to look at some of them. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now. Mr. Grothusen, give your next 
calculation. Have }'ou any other calculation? A. No, sir; 
that completes the whole. I have explained how I got at the 
first, by taking the amount on hand and adding the pounds and 
cost. 
Q. Have you got a summary of all these food quantities? 
A. For the entire period? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. I didn’t think that would enter into 
the account. I gave each by itself. 1 have shown the average 
amount to the number of inmates. 
Q. Now, have you carefully read the testimony of Mr. Fair- 
banks given in this case? A. Yes; I have read it over. I 
have not particularly studied it; I have read it over. 
Q. What other accounts have you examined in your experi- 
ence as an expert? A. Well, there is hardly any class of 
business that I have not examined — regular business ; this is 
my first experience in an almshouse investigation. 
Q. Now give us, if you have any other, particular sets of 1883. 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2339 
books which you have examined. A. I have examined the 
books of woollen mills, hardware concerns, and dry-goods 
houses. 
Q. Give us the names ? A. I don’t think I ought to do 
that, because the parties would generally call on me when they 
are in trouble ; and I don’t want to give their names. 
■ Gov. Butler. This gentleman is an expert; you need not 
trouble yourself to qualify him any more. 
The Witness. I can say this : I will refer you to Francis E. 
Parker, John H. Loring, William Minot; those gentlemen 
won’t object, — I use their names because they acted as counsel 
as I did. — and Hyde & Dickinson. 
Gov. Butler. This gentleman is an expert; I have ex- 
amined his work enough to know that. 
(By Mr. Brown.) Now Mr. Grothusen did you find 
airy inaccuracies in these books? A. Which books? . 
Q. These almshouse books? *A. I have not found any in- 
accuracies. I have looked over the books, as it was necessaiy 
occasionally, in comparison with the auditor’s books, to get a 
general idea about them, and to find what the books consist of. 
As I said before, there were a great many more books than 
should be kept in any such institution. I think the book-keep- 
ing of the State should be done in the auditor’s office. An 
institution of this kind ought to have simply a tabulated state- 
ment of the provisions received and the rations issued out; and 
all the bills should be put in the auditor’s department, and war- 
rants issued there. 
Q. That is, you express the opinion it should be done in the 
auditor’s office rather than by the superintendent of the Tewks- 
bury almshouse? A. I said all; I should have said the book- 
keeping. I have talked this matter over with Mr. Hawley 
downstairs ; but if book-keeping is done at the institution, I will 
say this : that the books kept at Tewksbury were full and com- 
plete ; more than that, because journalization is unnecessary 
labor which most book-keepers do away with now. It was done 
at Tewksbury. The journalization of his cash made unneces- 
sary work. 
Q, If I understand you, then, the fact that the journal at 
Tewksbury hadn’t been written up for an}' considerable length 
of time — for instance, suppose it hadn’t been written up for a 
year, would that interfere with the accuracy of the accounts? 
A. No ; up to that time ; the books were right up to that time 2340 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
You cannot go any further than the books are written up ; and 
you close up and take a trial balance to the last date of writing 
up. 
Q. Did you make any* of these examinations — strike any 
of these trial balances? A. No, sir, I did not; because I saw 
the books were there and they compared with the auditor’s, 
month by month, as I examined them. They compared with 
the auditor’s account, and I found a trial balance on hand, and 
I understood by reading the testimony of Mr. Fairbanks that 
Mr. Fairbanks had been over them and found it to be correct. 
Gov. Butler. We never have disputed the correctness as 
between the auditor’s accounts and these books; they must be 
so, or they would have been detected in five minutes. 
The Witness. And the fact that Mr. Fairbanks refers to ob- 
scureness — I think he calls it — in the entering of the stock 
account,* was simply where the purchaser — Moulton — I don’t 
know what his name is — 
Gov. Butler. His name is Moulton, for short — Henry 
Moulton. 
The Witness. He had made a cross entry, transferring from 
the State account to the State almshouse account. I looked it 
up with Mr. Records a day or two ago and we brought the account 
straight again. It is a thing that would happen anywheres. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Have you examined the inventories 
which have been made from time to time of property on hand ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is, made by a board of appraisers? 
Mr. Brown. A board of appraisers, outside. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) And you examined those original 
inventories? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And in making your calculation of the amount of food 
consumed you take out in each year the amount stated under 
oath to have been on hand on the first of October? A. I do. 
Q. Now, in regard to the manner in which these books are 
kept, for neatness? A. Well, they are unquestionably' neat. 
They will average better than books that generally* come under 
my* observation. They* are very neatly kept. I don’t think I 
found any fault in any* way*, shape or manner with the neatness. 
I don’t remember ever seeing a set of books so free from 
erasures and trans-entries. There are one or two entries 
marked void in the whole course of a y*ear, which I consider 
very* remarkable. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2341 
Gov. Butler. Very. 
The Witness. The only question in my mind about the 
books was that I thought the clerk might have found time to 
write up the last year; but it would not invalidate the rest of 
the books. 
Q. Nor would it embarrass any department in transacting 
the business of the institution? A. No, sir. The principal 
book, the bill book, was all written up. I think the invoice or 
bill book was written up to the 31st of March, 1883. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Your if I understand it, is that all the book you 
need to keep is an invoice book; that is, a book of the bills 
and purchases? A. Yes, sir. That is, I beg your pardon, 
Governor, provided the system is changed. 
Q. I understand. When you come to a proper system? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All that need be kept is that. Whenever Mr. Marsh 
purchases a lot of coal or a lot of flour or some clothing he 
should have a bill book on which those bills are entered? A. 
Yes, sir. It should be tabulated ; it should be a large book. 
Q. I understand that it should be tabulated ; but that is all 
the entry you would have? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you think that is all the book that is wanted? A. 
That is all the book that the institution should have, I think, 
except the books actually pertaining to the institution ; that is, 
of admissions and discharges. 
Q. I don’t mean that, I mean books of account? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Well, now, suppose Capt. Marsh should sell a lot of coal 
or a lot of calves, or a lot of meat, or a lot of pork, where 
would 3Tou enter that on the invoice book ? A. There would 
be but very little. I take it that he should not, — an almshouse 
would not be likely to sell coal. 
Q. Pardon me, there might be a case. But there would be 
a good deal of products they would have to sell. Then }rou 
would have a column for that,; a report of each sale. 
Q. What would you put at the head of that column? A. 
Sales — farm products. 
Q. That is all you would have on the book? A. That is 
all. 
Q. How would you check that sale of farm products to see 2342 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
whether you got an honest account of it? A. How would I 
check it? 
Q. Yes. A. Well, if anybody will steal there is no check 
at all. ' 
Q. I beg your pardon ; then, in your book-keeping there will 
be no check upon the stealing, will there, — your system of 
book-keeping? A. There is none in this system, now; is 
there in any — 
Q. I will agree with you, sir ; therefore the}7 were stealing 
like the devil. I agree with you perfectly. A. There is no 
check against stealing in any set of books, sir. 
Q. Isn’t there? There is some way of beii\g able to trace 
it, isn’t there ; but how would you trace it from this set of 
books if they had sold any amount of stuff, how would you 
trace it from this set of books or from your set of books? A. 
Trace it from one just as well as from the other. 
Q. But, from this set of books, how would you find out? 
What account is given ? A. There is no primary evidence of 
what they have raised on the farm. 
Q. I see there is no evidence of what they raised ; very well. 
Now, is there any evidence in their books of what they have 
expended? They have bought so many pounds of sugar,— 
what evidence is there on their books that a pound of that has 
been used? A. No evidence of the division of rations. 
Q. What? A. There is no evidence of the division of 
rations. 
Q. Then wouldn’t you think in such an institution there had 
better be, as things were delivered out from the store-room, a 
delivery book? A. Why, certainly. 
Q. Very well; but you didn’t provide for that. That would 
not be an invoice book by a long chalk. You have not pro- 
vided for that, and they haven’t had one there. Isn’t that the 
very system which prevents their stealing; they must charge 
themselves with so many barrels of Hour? A Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, there must be a book to show that that was 
delivered, or else it is on hand, or else it has been stolen, 
musn’t there? A. Yes, sir; that would apply to the goods 
purchased, because the auditor’s office, paying for the goods, 
would furnish the original proof of their having gone there. 
Q. But how they were used is what we want to get at. A. 
They should have a schedule of rations issued. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300 
2343 
Q. What? A. They should have a schedule of rations 
issued. 
Q. They should have a schedule of rations issued, but they 
have nothing of that kind, and your invoice book, which you 
think was the only one necessary to be kept in that institution, 
don’t provide for that, does it? Now, let us try it again. You 
say that you found these books agreed with the auditor’s ac- 
counts ; now; if the auditor’s accounts were made up from these 
books the}r would be correct, anyhow, wouldn’t they? A. Pre- 
sumably. 
Q. Yes, precisely ; then, the fact that those books agreed 
with the auditor’s accounts, is no evidence of the correctness of 
either account, is it? A. I was asked whether I found the 
books correct; I was not asked whether every tiling was properly 
accounted for, or whether anything could possibly have been 
stolen or not. 
Q. Hear my question and answer it. It is in testimony 
here that Mr. Marsh, once a month, made up a lot of invoices, 
a schedule of invoices, and sent those invoices to the auditor 
and entered them on his books; and, except in case of clerical 
error, those two accounts must agree, mustn’t they? A. Cer- 
tainly. 
Q. Very well; then, is the fact that they are found on the 
auditor’s books any evidence that they are correct in fact? A. 
Well, the presumption is — 
Q. Leave out your presumption. A. Certainty. 
Q. I want to know what the evidence is ; is there any evi- 
dence, if the auditor’s books are simply a transcript of Marsh’s 
books and nothing more, is that any evidence that these auditor’s 
books are correct? A. Well, in what respect, please? 
Q. In any respect correct. Suppose Mr. Marsh should 
make his books wrong, then the auditor’s books would agree 
with his and be wrong? A. They would be wrong too, sir. 
Q. And suppose he should make them right, then, the 
auditor’s books, agreeing with his, would be right? A. Pre- 
cisely. 
Q. Therefore the auditor’s books don’t help us any, do 
they? A. There are the receipted bills. 
Q. There are the receipted bills of what was purchased? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Now, whether these goods have been delivered there is 
not the slightest evidence, is there? A. No evidence further 2344 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
than the character of the parties of whom the goods were pur- 
chased ; they would not render the State a bill and take the pay 
for it unless the}’ had delivered such goods. 
Q. Then, all the check the Commonwealth has got is the 
character of the men the State has purchased of. We are on 
the book-keeping now, and not the character of the men. A. 
The book-keeping would give you no clue to it in any event. 
Q. Let us see about that. Leaving out the character of the 
men, suppose Mr. Marsh, for instance, — for we are trying to 
hedge him or anybody else who is in his place about by book- 
keeping, — suppose he should go and buy 500 barrels of flour 
of a man, honestly and fairly, one of these gentlemen of char- 
acter, and the man should send 400 hundred to Tewksbury to 
carry on the almshouse, and 100 down to Exeter to carry on 
the students’ boarding-house — is there anything in the books to 
show that or prevent that? A. No, sir; there is nothing to 
prevent it. 
Q. Now, very well — A. Neither would there be in any 
set of books. 
Q. Let us see whether there would not be. Now, suppose 
Mr. Marsh had had a delivery book kept by a party for the 
delivery of all this flour for use, why, then, if a hundred bar- 
rels didn’t appear there on the delivery book, they must either 
have gone to Exeter or else must be at the institution unused, 
mustn’t they ; if not accounted for in the institution, it must 
have gone somewhere else, mustn’t it? A. Yes, sir; if not 
accounted for in the institution. 
Q. Very well; then there can be a system of book-keeping 
by which there is a check upon it. Now, with the same num- 
ber of inmates, not any great difference, in 1881, I find there 
were 1,668 barrels of flour used; running back I find that they 
got along with 1,384 ; going a little further back, I find they 
got along with 1,449; then I find another year 1,519,—these 
are all actual consumption ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then, 1,553; then, again, 1,685, showing a pretty wide 
discrepancy; then, the institution ran on with 1,279 ; then the 
institution ran with 1,699, the next year; then, the next 
year, they got along with 1,300 barrels, and then, the next 
year, with 1,326 barrels, according to your acconnt, of actual 
consumption. Now, pass me the table of ’62 and ’82. I find 
that in ’62 they managed to get along with 1,401 barrels of 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2345 
flour; in’82 they got along with 1,676, — that is, 275 barrels 
more. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the number of inmates was the same. Now, then, 
do you find the corn made that difference? A. Yes, sir ; that 
made up a great part of the difference ; a thousand bushels of 
corn is 60,000 pounds. 
Q. Now, the beef in 1882? A. There is within 1,000 
bushels difference, I And. 
Q. The beef was more? A. Five barrels more, sir. 
Q. What? A. I think five barrels more. 
Q. Five barrels more? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The fresh meat.was 52,566 pounds against 88,000 
pounds; they went it pretty strong on that? A. Yes, sir; 
30,000 pounds more of beef. 
Q. When they had so much more flour, — probably made up 
the beef into pies. And salt fish was a good deal stronger, — 
16,000 pounds in ’62, and 22,000 pounds, leaving out the odd 
pounds, in ’82, there is 6,000 pounds more of salt fish. And 
then there was fresh fish, 21,000 pounds in ’62, and — A. 
Thirty-three thousand pounds in ’82. 
Q. And, then, there was 4,000 pounds of sugar in ’62, — 
which would have been a considerable quantity for the officers, I 
should think,—and there were 33,000 pounds in ’82. And 
then they fell off in molasses. 
Mr. Brown. IIow much sugar was that? 
Gov. Butler. 33,012, as I read it, sir. 
Mr. Brown. How much in ’62? 
Gov. Butler. 4,394 pounds. But it is fair to say that in 
’62 the}7 had 5,000 gallons of molasses against 980 at the other 
time. 
The Witness. Reduce that molasses to pounds, and you will 
probably get it. I didn’t know, — of course, I got these figures 
up as I found them; I am not supposed to be an expert in run- 
ning an almshouse. 
Gov. Butler. And I am dealing with figures, now, and not 
with your suppositions. 
Q. Butter, 3,127 pounds in ’62, and 16,460 pounds in ’82 ; 
eggs, 326 dozen in ’62, and 934 dozen in ’82. Pease and beans, 
— there was 624 pounds in 1882 and 18,599 pounds — A. 
The}7 raised no beans in ’82, and they raised them in ’62. 
Q. These are bought beans, then? A. These are all 
bought; yes, sir ; these are the comparisons. 2346 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, they raised 80 bushels in ’62, — there was not 
much difference in beans, — in ’62 the}' had 47 bushels of beans, 
and in 1882 they had 30 bushels of beans; they raised some 
more beans in ’62 than in ’82 ; and yet, with more beans raised, 
they had 6,240 pounds of them needed in ’62, and they needed 
18,000 pounds in ’82. Then, they had 50 pounds of rice in ’62 
and 9,843 in ’82 ; and, of oatmeal, they had 2,300 pounds in 
’62, and they had 9,200 pounds in ’82 ; and rye meal, they had 
600 pounds in ’62 and 3,600 in ’82. You got an idea that went 
to eke out the coffee. A. No, sir; not the rye meal. I said 
there were some few barrels of rye grain, whole grain ; at least, 
I have heard it stated that in public institutions such a thing is 
done ; I don’t know as it was done in Tewksbury. 
Q. Now, coal; they had 577 1-2 tons in ’62 and 2,192 tons 
in ’82 ; that wras four times as much, five times as much, and 
they hadn’t any more men to warm. And, to sum it all up 
in one word, sir, this is it, isn’t it? That, according to their 
report, in ’62, with the same number of men, it only cost, all 
told, to carry on this institution [examining book],— I have 
the wrong book, I will take it the other way,— [referring to 
another book] it cost, in ’82 to carry on this institution, 
$99,096.35,—see if I give that correctly? [Handingbook to wit- 
ness.] A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Cost $99,096.35 to carry it on, and in ’62,— the same 
number of inmates, a good many more officers, you know, we 
agree to that,— it cost $49,197. I am right there, am I not? 
A. Yes, sir; those figures include — 
Q. Pardon me — A. Include a great’many things I don’t 
know anything about. 
Q. I understand ; you haven’t gone into that. A. I have 
not gone into patent wringing machines, patent steam heat- 
ers, and such things. 
Q. You were not set to do that. A. I was to take the pro- 
visions. 
Q. You did what you were told to do? A. Provisions; 
yes. 
Q. And you wrere told to take that which would make the 
best showing for the Marshes ; 1 understand all that. But now I 
quote tlieir own report of what it cost to carry on this institu- 
tion. Well, now, in ’62 it only cost $1.03 8-13 an inmate ; that 
is right, isn’t it? A. I presume your reading is right. 
Q. I try to put it right, but I sometimes make mistakes. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2347 
And here, if I remember right, it cost about $2.09 and some 
odd cents, or $2.17, I am not certain which, an inmate, to carry 
it on. They were proud of it in ’62, and they put it right down 
where we could see it; but we have to calculate it in ’82, be- 
cause they are not so proud of it. [Examining the book ] I 
have it at last, sir,— $2.09 ; I thought I was right. 
The Witness. Pardon me ; I don’t see what that has to do 
with my work. 
Gov. Butler. It don’t have anything to do with your work, 
sir, in the world. Your work is exactly correct, so far as you 
have done it; but it has a great deal to do with the men that 
set you to do that work. That is the only difference. 
The Witness. I was asked to collate the provision account, 
and I tried, to the best of my ability, to do so. 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubt and you have done it ac- 
curately, sir; but I only want to see that you don’t make a 
showing which is not a true one. Figures won’t lie unless you 
make them. 
The Witness. Mine won’t lie. 
Gov. Butler. I understand; they will show exactly what 
you calculated upon. 
Q. Now, you have already shown us that in 1882 they didn’t 
get as much food to eat as they did in 1862, by your calculations 
here. A. The nature of the food was changed some. 
Q. I am not now upon the nature ; you are not bound to 
excuse the institution. If you want to stand by your figures 
and not appear partisan, you had better not put in an explana- 
tion for the Marshes. A. I am not counsel for the Marshes. 
Q. Whether the food was good or bad — A. I could not 
help you ; that was not my affair. 
Q. That was none of your affair ; but, whether good or bad’ 
they got the food they got, four pounds a day in ’62 against 
3.45 in ’82, although they had so much more food, apparently, 
purchased in ’82. 
Mr. Brown. That is in money but not in pounds; the 
pounds of food was greater in ’62 than in ’82. 
Gov. Butler. Clearly ; and the money was a great deal less. 
That is the point, don’t you see? 
Mr. Brown. There is 150,000 pounds of potatoes, you must 
recollect, to go in there. 
The Chairman. The institutions are entirely different. 
Gov. Butler. What, sir? CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
2348 
The Chairman. The institutions are quite different; I sup- 
pose you take that into consideration. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, I do; that in ’62 there were a great 
number of able-bodied men, and in ’82 there were a good many 
not able-bodied women, a good many sick, and in the language 
of a very estimable ladjr whom I know, it was almost a hospital. 
Now, I suppose they don’t eat quite so much food in a hospital 
as they do elsewhere. I didn’t put in that difference, — I am as 
ready to argue it with the chairman now as any time. 
The Chairman. ]t cost more, I suppose, and it weighs more ; 
but we won’t stop to argue it. I think, in connection with the 
figures, it should be understood that the institution is not the 
same. 
Gov. Butler. The cost is the same ; the cost of an article is 
only what the difference is in the market. 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. And this we will go into by and b}’. That 
don’t depend on the different kind of institution. 
Q. Now, I want to find out where you got your idea that 
they put rye in coffee in that institution? A. I have heard that 
in public institutions rye was mixed with coffee; heard it fre- 
quently. 
Q. You have heard that frequently, and you thought — 
A. I didn’t put it in with the coffee, but I merely called atten- 
tion to it; the accounts were merely rye grain. 
Q. Now, will you tell me again, in this calculation, when 
3tou make one up for me, as you are going to, what is the per- 
centage of difference in cost of flour, meat and fish, — flour, 
various meats and fish, — what is the percentage of difference 
in cost between ’62 and ’82, and, then, will you give me the 
percentage of difference in amount? A. You wish me to do 
that hereafter? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, hereafter ; you are going to put this in 
and you will make that for me. 
The Witness. Will you kindly put that down and then I 
shall know. 
Gov. Butler. Will you put it down yourself, and then you 
can read it; if I should you might not be able to. 
The Witness. I will risk that. 
Gov. Butler. I want the percentage of difference in cost of 
the principal articles of food which appear in ’62 and ’82. 
The Witness. Those 1 have enumerated will do, I suppose. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2349 
Gov. Butler. I mean some of the principal articles, not a 
long string of it, — flour, meat, fisli. 
The Witness. Simply the principal articles, leaving out the 
rye meal and oatmeal? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no; not the small articles. Now, then, 
having given me the percentage of difference in cost, give me 
the percentage in amount, because I want to meet the argument 
that they eat more there now than they used to. 
Q. Now, Mr. Expert, let us go to another matter of book- 
keeping. Did they show you the inmates’ cash-book? A. I 
saw it; yes, sir. 
Q. Did you see any erasures there ? A. I saw some ; 
sir. 
Q. Were you able to explain those? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, did you find out whether the calves that were sold 
were entered on the books or not? A. The calves? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. Or pigs? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or rags or bones? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or barrels ; did 3*011 find an3* account of them ? A. I 
found a large number of barrels credited b3r various concerns as 
having been received from them ; credited on the bottom of bills ; 
I took no notice of that as that had nothing to do with con- 
sumption of food. For instance, J. W. Roberts & Co. and 
Jacobs would take off a hundred pork barrels 
returned at a dollar apiece, so much, and put it at the bottom of 
the bill to offset the full amount of the bill. 
Q. Precisely so ; made up the full amount of the bill ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Then 3*011 rather increase the expenditure, because the 
barrels go back? A. Yes, sir; it would be a veiy hard mat- 
ter for me or anybody else to determine how maiy* barrels did 
go back. 
Q. That is exacts* what I want to know. Whether one- 
half went back or didn’t go back, 3*011 don’t know? A. No, 
sir; I took no account of it, 
Q. I am only on the bookkeeping now ; now, then, I want 
to know if 3*ou can tell aiything about the inmates’ clothing 
from these books, how much of that was taken? A. No, sir ; 
nothing. 
Q. Did 3*011 find an3rthing among the books of an account of 
the dead bodies that had been disposed of? A. No, sir. 2350 
CHAlilTABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, now, all there is on those books, substantially, is 
an account of bills that purport to have been rendered and pur- 
port to have been paid? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is all there is on these books, isn’t it? A. Yes, 
sir ; this classification of it. 
Q. Those being classified monthly? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And what is paid for salaries? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is to say, so much money has been taken out of the 
state treasury and these bills have been put in instead of it? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But where the goods went to, or who used them, or what 
became of them, or under what circumstances they were used, 
whether the}- were squandered or lost, or worse, the books will 
givens no account, will they? A. No, sir; there is no ac- 
count given. 
Q. And it is impossible to get any check upon them to trace 
any of all that property? This many hundreds of thousands of 
dollars, isn’t it? A. I should say not. 
Q. No man can trace from these books where all that pro- 
perty has gone, can he? A. Oh, no. 
Q. Well, now, upon the whole, as you are an expert book- 
keeper, don’t you think it would be a little better to have books 
that would give means of tracing this? A. Well, there should 
be a ration-book, of rations issued from the store-room ; but 
there would be no books that you could devise that would be 
able to give a full account of the farm products, if you come to 
that. 
Q. Why not? A. Because the farm products — 
Q. Why not? A. You would have to go into computa- 
tions of how much seed there was put into the ground, and how 
many bushels the seed yielded — 
Q. Well, now, I am not a bookkeeper, nor the son of a 
bookkeeper, but I think I could, and I guess there is many a 
farmer who can tell how much it costs to raise his crops. Sup- 
pose I should charge all the seed, all the labor, all the manure, 
and everything that I put on to my farm to the farm, and then 
I should credit everything that came olf of it to the farm ? A. 
Yes, sir ; providing you should ; but providing you should credit 
a portion, and send a portion off without crediting, — suppose 
you should credit a portion, and forget to credit another 
portion ? 
Q. Ah, but pardon me; that is not bookkeeping; that is 1883. ] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2351 
forgetfulness. A. It may be stealing. I simply want to make 
this point, that where there is no original certificate of indebt- 
edness there is no possibility of tracing an account. In double 
entry bookkeeping there is an account, and then a debit and a 
credit, and the original atom, which no more can be erased from 
a set of books than an atom out of our material world can be. 
Q. Stop a minute ; let us see. The State appoints a set of 
appraisers, who have a good job of it, you and I agree, and 
pays them $100 every year to appraise what is there ; that being 
got, you have got a statement of all there is thei’e, haven’t }Ton? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, if you charge yourself with all you receive, charge 
yourself with that amount at the beginning of the year, and 
charge yourself with all you receive during the }?ear, and credit 
yourself with all you expend, at the end of the year, whether it 
is on a farm or am where else, why can’t you find out how you 
come out at the end of the year? A. Most assuredly you can. 
Q. You can ; now, what is the objection to having that in- 
stitution having its books kept that way ? There, you see, you 
have got it exactly. A. The auditor can make that up from 
his bills. 
Q, Let us see him ; has he got a bill of the growing beets? 
A. No, sir; but he has the bill for every dollar that was ex- 
pended in the institution. 
Q. Oh, no ; he has not. Now, I will show you that that is 
not so, in a minute. Look here (taking up the almshouse re- 
port) ; take Mr. Marsh’s own account. He says the amount 
drawn from the treasury for expense has been $99,096.35 ; re- 
ceived for articles sold, $1,387.83 ; received from etfects of in- 
mates who have died or absconded, $33.03,— making $1,420, 
which sums have been paid to the treasurer, in offset against the 
gross expenditure. Now, of those sums the auditor hasn’t anjT 
account whatever,— paid into the treasury, as they have testi- 
fied here, — and the treasurer has testified he hasn’t any ac- 
count, or of anything that is raised on the farm. A. No, I 
presume he would not, of what is raised, but the amount that is 
deducted there ; but if it had been covered immediately into the 
state treasury upon receipt, or a bill made out against the par- 
ties to whom the calves or anything was sold, and the auditor 
collected it, he would. 
Q. Pardon me; 1 am not talking about whether the auditor 
is keeping a good set of books, because that is no part of his 2352 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
business, by statute; but I am about a set of books that should 
be kept there; the auditor or anjdjody else—}"Ou can keep a 
good set of books, I have no doubt, sir, if you have the data. 
A. Must have data; there must be the “material,” as they 
used to call it. 
Q. Now, when the Tewksbury almshouse was turned over to 
the board of state charities, they took an inventory of every- 
thing there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, if they charge themselves with everything they re- 
ceive, and credit themselves with everything they pay out, and 
those are properly itemized, there is no trouble in telling where 
everything has gone to, is there? A. No; certainly not. 
Q. Certainly not; therefore it is possible to keep a perfect 
set of books there ; but you will repeat again that it is not pos- 
sible to tell anything about it for the last twenty-five years, by 
the books you have seen ; isn’t that so? A. As far as the dis- 
tribution of the food is concerned. 
Q. The disposition of the food or anything else ? A. The 
record is complete of all the purchases, as far as I know. 
Q. The record is complete of everything that went in, but 
the goings out is the thing? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. There is no record of where it has gone? There has to 
be a record of what is bought, because you can’t get the money 
out of the state treasury without it, under the law ; but there 
never has been for twenty-five years, so far as these books show, 
any record kept of what is done with that which is taken and 
paid for by the State,—for which money is taken from the State 
and paid ? A. Providing such a set of books as this was to be 
continued at the institution, they might and they should be sup- 
plemented by a daily schedule of rations. 
Q. How would a daily schedule of rations help us? I have 
heard that three or four times— how would a daily schedule of 
rations show whether they sold a calf or killed it? They might 
kill a calf and eat it, and then it would appear in rations ; but, 
suppose they sold a horse, or he died? A. Some people eat 
horse, you know. 
Q. I know they do ; and they eat some salt horse, I guess, 
at Tewksbury ; but I am now talking about a horse they sold. 
A. The inventory would show that; they can’t get a horse 
without buying him, and they can’t get the money except from 
the State treasury. 
Q. 1 want to know how your daily ration would show that. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2353 
You have kept telling me a half-dozen times over that a schedule 
of rations would show ; now, how would a schedule of rations 
show us that a horse died or didn’t die, or was stolen, or what 
happened to it, and so on with everything on that farm that 
didn’t go into the rations; all that the horses eat, everything of 
that sort, all the products sold? A. They have a presumably 
correct account, — that is, I must say presumably, because I 
cannot verify it, — of everything sold. 
Q. Yes ; presumably correct, because you can’t verify it; 
why presume it is correct because }rou can’t verify it, any more 
than presume it is wrong because you can’t verify it? A. 
Because there is no origin, no original bill for it. 
Q. No original data? A. You can’t have any original 
data. 
Q. The question I am putting to you is, how will your dail}r 
ration schedule help that? A. It would not help that; but 
the money expended, all these bills I have been through — 
Q. Money expended for food and daily rations would fix it? 
A. Y”es ; 1 am dealing now with that. 
Gov. Butler. I am dealing with this whole bookkeeping. I 
don’t think I want to trouble you any longer, sir, if you will 
give me those things in the morning. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown 
Q. You were asked with regard to the matter of flour, in a 
question which assumed that a hundred barrels of flour went to 
Exeter ; I suppose if a hundred barrels of flour went to Exeter 
there would be way-bills upon the railroad or express company, 
or something of that kind, to show it, wouldn’t there? 
Gov. Butler. Unless it was carried in a wagon. 
Mr Brown. I suppose, if it was carried in a wagon, there 
would be somebody to drive the wagon, and it wouldn’t trouble 
you much to find him. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; Tom Kelliher. 
Mr. Brown. 1 notice that twenty-four hours’ search at the 
Boston and Maine depot in Exeter hasn’t produced anything 
yet. 
Gov. Butler. Our turn hasn’t come ; yes. 
Mr. Brown. I happen to know what you got up there. 
Gov. Butler. Anything else with this witness? 
The Chairman. Go on, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 2354 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
Mr. Brown. A single question. 
Q. I want to ask you, were you asked to examine the in- 
mates’ cash? A. No, sir. 
Q. Were you asked to examine the erasures in the inmates’ 
cash? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or to furnish an explanation? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was there anything said to you, from the time you com- 
menced your investigation up to the present time, that }rou were 
to make any account that was favorable or unfavorable to any 
of the Marsh family? A. No, sir. 
Q. Have you ever heard — A. I should have resented it 
if there had been. 
Q. Have you ever had any instruction from anybody except 
from me? A. No, sir; I have not. 
Q. Have you ever heard me mention the name of the Marsh 
family in connection with any instructions which were given 
you ? i A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, I would like you to tell the committee just what 
instructions I did give you? A. You sent a note for me to 
call and see you on professional business, which I answered by 
going there, and 3'ou asked me to go to the State House, or 
meet you at the State House the next morning, was it, at half- 
past nine o’clock, — I forget, now, the exact hour, — and you 
would show me the Tewksbury books, from which you wished 
me to compile the consumption of food at Tewksbury from ’G2 
to ’82 ; that I have done to the best of usability. I might have 
made it plainer, perhaps ; some accountants might have done it 
better, perhaps. 
Gov. Butler. Very well done, sir. 
Q. You undertook to explain, in answer to one of the gov- 
ernor’s remarks, in regard to the different amounts of flour in 
each year — 
Gov. Butler. 1 don’t think he undertook to explain. 
Mr. Brown. He did, and 3011 stopped him. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t know it. 
Q. Now, for instance, take the item of flour; or anything 
that is made into bread, the oatmeal, or anything of that kind, 
has there been a change,— for instance, in some years would 
there be a large quantity of flour and a small quantity of oat- 
meal or corn, or something of that kind? A. Yes, sir; it 
shows there that one year,— the tables will show for them- 1883.] 
HOtJSE — No. 300. 
2355 
selves ; I can’t really give an}' explanation about that. There 
are the figures, the}’ will speak for themselves. I can only 
guarantee their correctness as far as anybody can be correct; 
that is, generally correct; I suppose no man ever lived who 
didn’t make an error. 
Gov. Butler. I want to say, once for all, sir, that they are 
very correct, as far as I see. 
Q. Take, for instance, in ’62 there were 22 attendants ; that 
is, officers and attendants? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In ’82 there are 53. A. That is what I gathered from 
the receipts. 
Q. There is a difference of 31 ; that alone would add to the 
expenditure of Tewksbury somewhere in the neighborhood of 
$9,000 or $10,000, would it not? I believe that the lowest 
price paid for an attendant was about $25 a month. A. It 
was $19,900 in one year, and $7.760,—I can’t keep all the 
figures in my head [turning to the tabulated statement] —• 
$7,227 iu one \ear, and $19,510 the other. 
Q. I mean simply the cost to the State of the extra number 
of attendants, 31 more attendants, in ’82 than in ’62. A. It 
would be the difference between 19,000 and 7,200. 
Q. I am getting at the simple matter of salaries paid to 
these attendants. A. That is the salaries. 
Q. Now. something has been said to you in regard to the 
large amount of coal, — coal in ’62, 577]- tons, in ’82 2,192 
tons ; three and a fraction times more coal in ’82 than ’62. 
Gov. Butler. Four and a fraction, isn’t it? 
The Witness. No, sir; three, not quite four. 
Q. It was not quite four. Now, of course, in order to show 
that there has been an excessive use of coal, it must be shown that 
they only heated the same number of square feet in each case. 
A. The number of inmates would have nothing to do with it; 
it is the number of square feet. 
Q. We have had in evidence here that there have been 
several large buildings built, which are to be heated, since ’62 ; 
so would that be any fair estimate, the fact that there has been 
a larger amount used ; would you make any charge upon that? 
Gov. Butler. That is not a matter of book-keeping. 
Mr. Brown. Yrou called his attention to that. 
Gov. Butler. I only called attention to the figures ; I didn’t 
call his attention to the testimony that they had to wear over- 
coats now in the hospital. 2356 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. By having a civil engineer measure the room 
space it would give you that. It is beyond me, — I could do it, 
but it is not my business. I once in a while look over a few 
mathematics. 
Q. Now, I want you to point out and give to the committee 
in a very few moments, the additional expenditures in Tewks- 
bury in ’82 over ’62 by the use of tea and coffee. 
Gov. Butler. By what? 
Mr. Brown. By the use of tea and coffee. Tea and coffee 
was not used at Tewksbury in ’62 to any considerable extent; 
just give us the additional expenditure in Tewksbur}’ in ’82 
over ’62 by the introduction of tea and coffee, and then show 
by the papers — 
Gov. Butler. He can’t do that. 
Mr. Brown. Why not? 
Gov. Butler. I will tell you why ; he can tell you how 
muph has been purchased, but how much is used he can’t. 
Mr. Brown. Of course, he can’t say how much was used. 
Gov. Butler. Then why’ ask him? 
Mr. Brown. But we will assume that it was used till some- 
body shows the tea arid coffee was lugged off; we have heard a 
good many insinuations, but no evidence yet. [To the wit- 
ness.] Then show what the expenditure was. 
Gov. Butler. That I have no objection to ; it was onl}T the 
use. 
Mr. Brown. [To the witness ] Then take a pencil and 
show ns what the expenditure was in ’62 and ’82 on account of 
tea and coffee. 
The Chairman. While he is figuring that can’t you call 
somebody else? 
The Witness. It won’t take but three minutes ; I have it 
light here before me. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler). Give me the pounds of tea, sir? 
A. The pounds of tea in ’82, 5,307. 
Q. And coffee? A. And coffee, 7,333. 
The Witness. The expenditure for tea and coffee both 
together ; or do you want the coffee separate, Mr. Brown ? 
Mr. Brown. Just the total expenditure. 
The Witness. $2,443.10 ; that is in ’82. 
Q. In what article? A. Tea and sugar combined; 5,307 
pounds of tea at .26 a pound, and 7,333 pounds of coffee at 
.14]- a pound, would be $2,443.10. Whereas, in ’62, I find no 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2357 
coffee, except as I have heretofore stated, once in a while a 
little which is put right in with groceries, and a lot of 657 
pounds of tea, of which 298 pounds were Japan tea at 19 cents 
and a half a pound, I think, — that is, about one-third of that 
lot of 657 pounds was Japan tea,—and the rest was Oolong 
tea. I don’t presume, because I am not supposed to presume 
anything, but am led to believe that Oolong tea was not given 
to the inmates. The tea during that year was $262.80 against 
$2,443.10. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) So that in the two items of labor 
and tea and coffee, there would be a difference of over $12,000? 
A. Yes, sir; it is $12,000 alone, — 12,310 or $12 dollars in 
the employees. 
Q. Between fourteen and fifteen thousand dollars in the 
matter of attendants and tea and coffee? A. And tea and 
coffee ; yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Will you give us the coal, now ; the differ- 
ence in the coal. It will save us from doing it, perhaps. 
Gov. Butler. There is some evidence, Mr. Chairman, that 
some of that coal went somewhere else. 
The Witness. I haven’t any record of it, myself. 
Mr. Brown. (To Gov. Butler.) How much was it; about 
five tons? That you claim was paid by a check that was not 
the superintendent’s check? 
Gov. Butler. We caught you stealing two carloads ; I sup- 
pose that was onl}T a percentage. 
Mr. Brown. That is a modest way of putting it. 
Gov. Butler. [To the witness.] Have you got that any- 
where, sir? 
The Witness. Yes, sir; the value of the coal in ’62 was 
$2,685.37, and in ’82, $10,960. 
Q. So that the coal, the tea and coffee, and the labor would 
make upwards of, — pretty near $25,000 ? A. $22,000. 
Q. In the simple matter of fuel, tea and coffee, and extra 
attendants? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. How do you account for the difference between 49,000 
and 99.000, the rest of it? A. There are a large number of 
bills for repairs of steam heaters, gas machine, painting — 
Q. What; in the same year; how much? A. I have not 
gone into the figures, 
Re-cross examination by Gov. Butler. 2358 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I am talking about these two years. 
Mr. Brown. I mean ’62 and ’82. 
Gov. Butler. ’62 and ’82 ; why, we have got all the steam 
heaters in here [an almshouse report], and all the steam 
heaters in here [another almshouse report], my man; now, 
find a steam heater. [Laughter.] 
The Chairman. I don’t see anything to laugh at in that 
remark. 
Q. I ask you how you account for that difference between 
49,000, —you manage 22,000 ; we will see about that, —49,000 
in ’62 and 99,000 in ’82, and you say steam heaters and repairs ; 
where are they? A. I don’t say 1 explain it; 1 say I have 
seen these expenditures. 
Q. Pardon me ; why do you tell me about what you have 
seen if you are not answering my question ? IIow do you ac- 
count, now, for the difference, — we have got 22,000, out of the 
difference between 49,000 and 99,000 ; how do you account for 
the balance? You account for twentyr-twro. A. 1 have no 
way of accounting for it. I could account for it, I presume, by 
specifying all the bills. 
Q. No, sir ; you have accounted for it, sir, in showing these 
bills, 1 think. Now, will you tell me how much tea, — you say 
there were 5,307 pounds ; am I right? A. 5,307 pounds ; yes, 
sir. 
Q. Divide that by 365, and let us see how much tea they got. 
A. 14$. 
Q. 14$ pounds a day ; and they didn’t use but seven a day 
for five years ; how do you manage that? A. That I can’t tell 
you, sir. 
Q, If theyT haven’t used but seven pounds a day, the other 
seven has been stolen by somebody? Because, it is all there 
on the books. Now, take the coffee ? A. 7,333 pounds. 
Q. Veiy well. Divide that by 365 ? A. Twenty and one- 
tenth pounds. 
Q. This is the actual consumption of coffee, as the books 
show. But the cook says they use 16 pounds. 
Mr. Brown. The difference between you and the witness, 
Governor, is this: the witness has testified to what he used in 
his department, but he didn’t furnish tea or coffee to the hos- 
pital, the lying-in wards, or anything of that kind. 
Gov. Butler. Hold on a minute. There were 16 pounds 
for 900 inmates, and 4 pounds for 50 attendants per day-. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2359 
Mr. Brown. That makes 20 pounds. 
Gov. Butler. I should think so. 
The Witness. I presume it is fair to allow for the shrinkage 
of coffee in roasting. I take the raw coffee weights, you know. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You take the raw coffee weights? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How do you know you take raw coffee weight? A. 
Because the grocers are in the habit of selling coffee raw, unless 
it is specified roasted. 
Q. Now, that is a little explanation you volunteer. Now, 
let me tell you that the testimony is that they bought all burnt 
coffee. Now, why do you give that little explanation, which is 
not true? A. I find no evidence, but I presume that an insti- 
tution of that kind would buy their coffee raw. Furthermore, I 
think I can show where they charge three cents for roasting it. 
They sold the raw coffee, and then they charged three cents per 
pound for roasting it. 
< Q. Three cents a pound for roasting coffee? A. Yes, sir; 
that is what they charged. 
Q. Was that a large amount? A. Yes, sir; in large 
amounts; six or seven hundred pounds — on one of Barron, 
Dodge & Co.’s bills. You would find the cost where they 
charged for it in the first place and then the charge for roast- 
ing. I was brought up in the grocery business originally. 
Q. Three cents a pound for roasting 5,700 pounds of coffee? 
A. I don’t say I found it charged for the whole 5,700 pounds, 
but for a large portion I found the charge fpr roasting addi- 
tional. 
Q. For roasting? A. Yes, sir; that charge for roasting I 
added to the charge of the coffee. 
Q. But I am talking about the coffee that was roasted, all 
weighed out. How much do you think it shrinks by roasting? 
A. I think it is twenty per cent. 
Q. By roasting? Well, then, the advantage they got was 
to have it roasted, and pay three cents. How much did they 
pay for coffee? A. Fourteen or fifteen cents. 
Q. Without the roasting? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Pardon me ; you have put in this coffee at fourteen or 
fifteen cents? A. Whatever the price is. 
Q. Let us see? A. The coffee is fourteen and a half cents. 
Q. Does this include the roasting? A. Yes, sir ; it includes 
the cost of roasting, 2360 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I asked the question, what was the cost of the coffee be- 
fore it was roasted ? A. Why 10£ or II cents,—some por- 
tion of it. There Avas some Java coffee ; I presume bought for 
the officers of the institution — presumably. 
Q. But now I am talking about the Rio coffee? A. The 
Rio — about 11 cents a pound, I think. 
Q. A good article of Rio coffee can be got for 11 cents a 
pound? A. I don’t know ; it is so long since I have had any- 
thing to do with the grocery business. 
Mr. Brown. Did you say 11 cents? 
Gov. Butler. 11 cents. 
The Witness. I Avas onlj- an agent, myself. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think I shall have to trouble 3011 any 
« 
more, sir. 
The Witness. Then, as I understand it. you wish the per- 
centages ? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; just Avhat I told 3rou. 
The Witness. And then you want the values ? * 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Testimony of Moses Sargent (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Moses Sargent. 
Q. You reside in Boston ? A. I do. 
Q. How long have you resided in Boston, or in Massachu- 
setts? A. In Massachusetts I have resided all the da}rs of 
my life. 
Q. Were you present here when Mr. Frank Haberlin testi- 
fied as a witness? A. I was. 
Q. Did you hear him testify that he had a discharge from 
the 156th New York Regiment? A. I did. 
Q. Have you had any conversation lately Avith him in regard 
to his relation with the 156th New York Regiment? A. Yes, 
sir; last Saturday. 
Q. Did you have any conversation with him in regard to his 
discharge from that regiment? A. I did. 
Q. State Avhat he said about it. A. He said he enlisted on 
Cedar Street; a man by the name of Mike O’Brien enlisted 
him. 
Gov. Butler. I ask a ruling simply to save time. 1 sup- 
pose you can’t contradict a man about a wholly collateral ques- 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2361 
tion, can you? For instance, you could not ask a man what he 
had for breakfast, and then contradict him by showing that he 
had something else. 
The Chairman. No ; I suppose that is the rule. 
Gov. Butler. Now, his discharge was a wholly collateral 
matter. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, His Excellency produced a 
meritorious soldier here, he said, and he asked him if he was a 
soldier, and to what regiment he belonged, and he said he 
belonged to the 156th New York. And he went on to tell in 
what military exploits he was engaged. He was with Banks on 
Roanoke Island ; all of which never took place in the world. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t ask him. 
Mr. Brown. And His Excellency undertook to correct him, and 
asked him if he meant Red River ; and he said no, it was Roanoke 
Island. Now, I am going to show that that man was a deserter ; 
and, to that end, with the facts in our possession, Mr. Sargent 
goes to him and has a conversation with him, and he confessed 
that he was a deserter, and never was anything else. He en- 
listed on the 12th of November, 1862, and deserted on the 3d 
day of December that year; and never left New York with his 
regiment in the world. lie was a bounty jumper ; that was his 
business. 
Gov. Butler. Well, this statement don’t make it any more 
competent. It is a wholly collateral matter. I asked him — I 
don’t remember, but I am content to take it that I asked him 
who enlisted him. I certainly didn’t ask him about being with 
Banks on Roanoke Island, or about any of his exploits. 
Mr. Brown. I did. I wanted to know where he served. 
Gov. Butler. What 3Tou stated was that 1 put it in. 
Mr. Brown. And then you asked him if he meant Red Riv- 
er, and he said no. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I asked him in reply to you. I 
didn’t ask him about his exploits. I asked him as I would any- 
body, where were you. But you can’t contradict on these col- 
laterals, whoever asked them. Now, does it make anything to 
this investigation, whether this man is contradicted on a mere 
collateral point? If you send this private detective up to 
frighten a man, when he is up in Tewksbury for aught I know, 
I cannot tell what he will say, and don’t care what he will say, 
much. But you cannot contradict him on these collaterals ; and 
nobody knows that any better than the chairman of the com- 2362 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
mittee. It is mere collateral. Because, otherwise, you could 
ask him just as well: what did you have for breakfast? I had 
fish and potatoes. Then the}' would show that he had roast 
beef. We cannot go into this sort of investigation ; life is not 
long enough for that. If you are going to contradict him by his 
sa}’ so, it would not be proper. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency put this witness on here as a 
man who had been to Tewksbury. For the purpose of exciting 
your sympathy, he brought out the fact that this man had 
been a meritorious soldier. lie had served in the 156th New 
York, and he had his discharge ; and he gave the committee the 
impression, by the manner in which he handled himself and his 
pocket, that he had it in his pocket. 
The Chairman. He said he had it. I called for it afterwards, 
and then he said he didn’t have it. 
Gov. Butler. Two detectives. 
Mr. Brown. 1 asked him for the purpose of getting a little 
information where he served. And on the 711th page the com- 
mittee will find the following: “ Now, you say }Tou were in the 
186th New York ? ” A. “ The 156th.” 
Gov. Butler. I supposed I had the reply, but I never do have, 
somehow. I ask the chairman to enforce the rule, if we are to 
have fair play here at all. The rule is that when I make an ob- 
jection then I am to be heard, then Mr. Brown is to be heard, 
and then I am to close. 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; that has been done. I want him 
to stop. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t propose to make any argument. 
Gov. Butler. He rarely does make an argument. 
The Chairman. You claim that the three points have been 
made in this case? 
Gov. Butler. I claim that rule always, sir. 
The Chairman. Y'ou claim that now he has spoken and you 
have closed. 
Gov. Butler. 1 have the close when 1 make an objection ; 
and I have explained to the chairman the only case where I have 
not. 
The Chairman. Now, then, Mr. Brown, you propose to 
show by this witness that this man has admitted that he has 
been a deserter? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2363 
The Chairman. I think the rule is as the governor has 
stated it as to collateral matter. Whether he was a man of 
truth and veracity is a question. 
Mr. Brown. Of course it is for the committee to decide 
whether this is a collateral issue. If it is a collateral issue 
there is no doubt but what you can go into collateral issues in a 
matter of this kind. Where Ilis Excellency produces a man, 
the principal value of the man as a witness being the fact that 
he has been a soldier, a disabled soldier, and he goes up here 
and gets maltreated—that is the principal thing there was about 
the man that had any interest — 
Gov. Butler. I never did put it that they had a right to 
treat him any worse because he was a soldier or that they should 
treat him any better because he was a soldier. 
The Chairman. If you contradict him as to his maltreat- 
ment that would be a material matter. 
Mr. Brown. Well, does the chairman say that for the pur- 
pose of affecting this man’s credibility — that a man can come 
here and tell this committee that he is an honorably discharged 
soldier, and has got his discharge in his pocket, when he is a 
bounty-jumper and deserter, and that we cannot show that to 
this committee. 
Gov. Butler. I suppose they will have to say so; that is 
the law. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think it is. 
The Chairman. That is my impression of the law. I will 
submit it to the committee. 
Mr. Brown. I will agree that the proposition of law is cor- 
rectly stated ; but it is within the discretion of the committee 
to decide whether it is collateral matter. This is not collateral, 
because it is a matter that affects his credibility. Suppose Mr. 
Grothusen or anybody should come in here — 
Gov. Butler. Here it goes. 
Mr. Brown. —And say that he was an expert accountant 
when he never had had anything to do with accounts, it would 
be perfectly proper for me to show that he was not an ac- 
countant. 
Gov. Butler. If the chairman would hold to the rule I 
would be much obliged to him, to prevent this collateral dis- 
cussion. This is it: Where it is not collateral, where a man 
says he is an accountant, and where his value is as an accountant, 
that goes to the vitality of the thing ; because he must qualify 2364 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
himself as a witness. It does not make a man any more compe- 
tent as a witness because he is a soldier, or any less competent 
witness because he is a deserter. It is entirely one side. Col- 
lateral means one side of the inquiry. And you have no more 
discretion about what is collateral than you have about any 
other part of the law. For instance, the wa}T to test it is — you 
could not convict him of perjury upon that, because it don’t 
pertain to the issue. That is the meaning of collateral. He 
must have sworn falsely in order to be contradicted upon some- 
thing which pertains to the issue ; or, in the language of an 
indictment for perjury, “ it became important to know, pertain: 
ing to the issue there pending, whether” such a thing was so 
and so or not. And there is an end. Besides, I doubt very 
much whether that rule would be applied where they could 
brihg extraneous proof, provided they could bring the record 
of his desertion. That would be wholly collateral. But his 
statement here is very much farther removed, because he may 
have had inducement to make the statement. 
Mr. Brown. That you have a right to enquire about. 
Gov. Butler. From this detective. I should sooner think 
of squeezing hone}’ out of a pig’s tail; just as much. Not I ! 
Not I! It is a question of telling what has been done. That 
is the reason. So that that brings it one remove farther that he 
says that he is now a deserter. You would not know that he 
is but only that he says something different upon a collateral 
subject from what he said before. It don’t prove that he is 
deserter, one way or the other. 
Mr. Gilmore. Mr. Chairman, we haven’t confined ourselves 
to the exact rules of evidence in law cases in this hearing, and 
if Mr. Brown proposes to prove by this witness otherwise than 
by what the witness himself says, that he was a deserter, it 
seems to me that it is competent; but if he proves it by what 
the witness says to him. I should not consider that competent. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I have the record from the 
office of the Adjutant General at Albany, showing that this 
man was a deserter. 
Gov. Butler. When that is offered — 
Mr. Brown. I have not yet offered that, because it was sent 
to me in a form which I did not suppose His Excellency would 
admit; and I have sent to have it corrected. In the meantime, 
Mr. Sargent had a conversation with this man, and I offered to 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2365 
show what this man told Mr. Sargent in regard to his own his- 
tory. 
The Chairman. Will the committee admit the testimony ? 
[The committee refused to admit the testimony.] 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Mr. Sargent, did you go to New 
York and visit the place where Eva Bowen said she lived when 
she was a witness here? A. I did. 
Q. What sort of a house was it? A. It was a lodging- 
house kept by a woman who then went by the name of Baker. 
Q. What is that? A. The woman’s name was Baker that 
kept the house — as she testified here. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
The Witness. I ascertained through Capt. Williams — 
Gov. Butler. I object to what Capt. Williams said, or any- 
thing else of that kind. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You found out what was the reputa- 
tion of that house — 
Gov. Butler. I object. 
Mr. Brown. — and of the woman that kept it. 
Gov. Butler. I object. It would be a grievous wrong. In 
the first place, — it has to be found out in the first place,—'did 
Eva Bowen know the character of the house. The reputation 
don’t prove the character. The character of a man is what he 
is; the reputation is what some people say, more or less 
broadly, he is. So this house. This detective went to New 
York. Ami he makes inquiry of those that he chooses, and he 
comes here, and now it is endeavored to put in what he says —• 
what he found out. Here again, if the committee please, we 
come again to an entirely collateral issue. It is not permitted 
by law to prove that a woman is a loose woman or that a man 
is a loose man to affect their character for truth and veracity. 
If there is anything better settled in the world than that, I 
don’t know what it is. Very well. Then, whether that 
is their character can be inquired of if the party chooses, 
on cross-examination, to inquire about it. But it being a 
wholly collateral matter, they are bound to take what comes 
out of the witness’s mouth, and the}’ cannot prove to the con- 
trary. You cannot ask a man: are you divorced from your 
wife, or is the woman you live with your wife? and if he says 
she is, and if he is then put upon the stand, you cannot then, in 
order to touch his character for truth and veracity, undertake to 
prove that the woman is not his wife. Is the house you live 2366 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
in a reputable house in the way of chastity? That is a one- 
sided inquiry. I should have long since stopped the inquiry 
which has been so pushed here about Eva Bowen’s having the 
syphilis, except that 1 felt sure that my evidence — except that 
1 hope to convince everybody before we get through here that 
my evidence upon that is overwhelming. I can meet this issue. 
But I cannot meet the issue of what this detective will swear 
about the reputation of somebody I cannot get at in New York 
and cannot get here. It is entirely collateral, and if it were not 
collateral this is not the way to prove it. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency produced Eva Bowen as a wit- 
ness for the purpose of showing some five or six different things, 
all of them immediately connected with the mismanagement of 
this institution and with the bad faith of the people who have 
the charge of it. One of the things was this : that Miss Nellie 
Marsh and Mr. Bowen, the father of this woman, had conspired 
together to murder — or, rather, as she put it — to remove her. 
They did succeed, under her statement, in killing her baby. 
Another charge was that she was registered on the register of 
the institution as having had syphilis, when it was absolutely 
false. Now,- on the cross-examination, for the purpose of 
showing the committee what this woman was, and how utterly 
absurd was the proposition which His Excellency undertook to 
establish here by this creature — who came here, I believe, for 
nothing else except to advertise her wares — for the purpose of 
showing how utterly absurd that was 1 began to ask her her 
history. She gave some part of it as it took place here in Bos- 
ton, and then she testified that in 1877 she went to New York ; 
and she told this committee that she had been — or rather upon 
the interposition of His Excellency—she gave this committee 
to understand that she was a reformed woman. And Ilis 
Excellency would not allow me to ask her whether she went by 
the same name in New York as she gave here upon the 
witness stand. Or, rather, that was asked, and when she said 
she didn’t go by that name, then His Excellency would not 
allow us to find out what was her real name in New York, or 
what name she went by in New York. She was asked where she 
lived, and she told the committee that she was living at a place 
where she had lived two weeks. Now, sir, she had lived in that 
house, or about it, in the neighborhood of seven months, — a 
notorious house of ill-fame. The gentleman who sits upon the 
committee from Wellesley, — every member of the committee 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2367 
will remember the remark he made,—he thought it was not 
proper or fair for me to press the question as to what her name 
was that she went by in New York, because he said if she was 
tiding to lead a pure and chaste life there under another name, 
the fact that she should be connected with these matters in 
Boston would hurt her. She came into this room and she sailed 
here before this committee under false colors, pretending to be 
a decent woman when she is nothing but a notorious strumpet. 
The place where she lived in New York, known to the police in 
New York, and the woman who keeps the house, if I remember 
correctly, is registered as an infamous woman on the records of 
Precinct 29, New York, and has been registered therefor years. 
Now, it is perfectly proper, under those circumstances, for me to 
show that what she did and said here before this committee is 
absolutely false. Why, you had pity on her. You would not 
require her to make public the name under which she went in 
New York because you had pity on her; nothing else. Now, 
Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I want to unmask this creature 
who comes here ; I want to show what she is, what is her repu- 
tation and what is the reputation of the house where she has 
lived for seven months. Her reputation is that of a strumpet, 
and the place where she lived enjoys the reputation of being a 
house of ill-fame. Now, is it not proper, is it not lawful, is it 
not legal for me to prove all that, when she comes here on the 
witness stand under the circumstances in which she does? Is it 
not material? Is it not for your information at all? Is it not 
of any value for you to know whether that woman came here 
and lied, and tried to sail before you here as a pure woman when 
she is nothing but a strumpet? Is it of no value for you to 
know that? I am reminded that His Excellency has man}’times 
used the expression that the object of this investigation was to 
get at the truth. Now, if the committee don’t care, if it don’t 
make any difference to them in making up their judgment about 
this case, whether this witness is what I claim I can show she is 
now in New York, if that does not make any difference, if they 
don’t care to know anything about that, certainly there is no 
object for me to offer the testimony. But, Mr. Chairman, I 
have always understood, — and I recollect a number of cases at 
nisi prius where I have seen it done, and I think I remember 
one very distinctly where His Excellency did it, — 
Gov. Butler. What case was that? 
Mr. Brown. That a man who comes upon the witness stand 2368 
CHAlil TABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
and tells you who he is and what his business is — because it is 
from those things that }tou undertake to show who the man is 
— it is perfectly proper for the other side to come and show that 
he is not any such man and is not engaged in any such busi- 
ness. Why, suppose that a man should say that he was shoe- 
ing a horse on a particular day when a certain thing took place, 
— that particular thing being the subject of inquiry, — shoeing a 
horse in his blacksmith shop ; wouldn’t it be material for me to 
show that he was not a blacksmith, that he didn’t have any 
blacksmith shop, and that he was not there on that day. Pre- 
cisely the same thing. I don’t think there is very much left of 
Eva Bowen, but I thought it was no more than fair to the com- 
mittee that I should offer to show that Eva Bowen, since she 
has been in New York, is nothing and has been known as noth- 
ing but a strumpet, and the place where she lives in such pris- 
tine purity as His Excellency would have us understand, is 
nothing but a house of ill-fame. 
Gov. Butler. May it please the committee, Eva Bowen 
came here to testifj’ to what took place when she was 1G 3rears 
old, in the }rears 1875 and 1876. In everything that she has 
said concerning her history, she has been corroborated. She 
told the history of her fall, a girl of fifteen ; she told of the rela- 
tions between her father and herself; she told where she was 
carried to and where she went from, and there has been no con- 
tradiction upon a single point, in spite of the attempt, for a 
reason which I can explain when my time comes, to show that 
she had the syphilis. If a girl of fifteen gets that, it ought not 
to interfere with her truth and veracity. And right feeling men 
and fathers, whose daughters’ turn it may be one of these days, 
will so look upon it. Now, it is said that you must admit this 
testimony, because when a man swears that he was shoeing a 
horse in his shop and saw something take place just outside of 
the shop, it would be competent to show that he was not shoe- 
ing a horse there at that time and could not have seen it. If 
the premises of that proposition had the small-pox, the conclu- 
sion would not catch it; it is too far off. Eva Bowen is telling 
of what she saw or heard in ’76, and, therefore, it js not col- 
lateral to prove what she is doing in ’83. Another thing, j-ou 
are told that she came here to advertise her wares. I don’t 
envy the man who could say that, especially in view of the fact 
that she concealed her name religiously, so that nobody would 
ever know of the advertisement applying to her. Think of it! 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2369 
Think of it! Think of it! A man standing up here with the 
responsibility of his place, and undertaking to so attack this 
woman! If she had come here to advertise her wares, she 
would have advertised her name. 
Mr. Brown. She advertised her place and the name Eva; 
what does anybody want more than that? 
Gov. Butler. She refused utterly, and I had supposed there 
was manhood enough in my profession to give it to this gentle- 
man, to find out where she was, in confidence, under the direc- 
tion of the committee. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; and I have never broken it. 
Gov. Butler. No ; the way you have kept it I have heard 
in your last speech. You claimed openly that I gave you 
enough, and you have used that to advertise her; if that claim 
is true, then the confidence has been broken ; if it is not true, 
then the accusation is a false one that she came here to adver- 
tise her wares. She didn’t do it. She came here unwillingly, 
in one sense. She told her story, and that story has not been 
contradicted. She is false nowhere. She gives the true name, 
where she lived at the time she gave it. If she had been a false 
woman, she would not have given the true place, if it was such 
a place as the rough side of a lawyer’s tongue describes it. The 
woman sat here, — she came here to advertise her wares? She 
concealed the name, and concealed the place ; and you are to be 
moved by such argument as this! Now, then, was she true? 
She told you that Mrs. Rowell, the nurse, saw that letter, read 
it, and gave- it to her ; they can prove in a material point she is 
false, if they will bring Mrs. Rowell here, — no need of going 
to collateral matters. That they take great care not to do. 
They send this detective to New York to hunt up somebody 
that will say something. Well, I have no doubt he has got men 
that will say anything there. There is a brotherhood of these' 
people. Now, the question is, will you, as men, as committee- 
men, as legislators, as fathers, sit here and see this poor girl 
attacked in this way, when the law says, and no case can be 
quoted to the contrary that it does not, that the fact that a 
woman does or does not lead a loose life, is not a fact to be put 
in to her credibility-? I will stop instantly when anybody will 
suggest that a decent court or a decent man ever set up that 
proposition. Never! And that, too, years and years after 
the fact, years and years after the fact, let me say to you, 
to be proved. Could she be convicted of perjury upon it? 2370 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Clearly not. Then it is collateral. You may or may not want 
to know what her life is, but the law says there is but one way 
of dealing with the credibility of witnesses, and that is a great 
rule of public policy to prevent just such things as this, or 
attempts of this kind, and to shorten the trial in this way. 
I have spoken, gentlemen of the committee, with some feel- 
ing, perhaps too much, upon this matter, but I brought this 
poor girl here. I believed her story then and I believe it now, 
and shall continue to believe it; and I am bound in honor to 
defend her as well as I can by all the rules of law against all the 
assaults of her enemies. And, therefore, I am here appealing 
to you in the name of justice, and the name of law, nay, in 
the name of humanity, in the name of manliness, to prevent this 
attack made upon this woman in this room. 
The Chairman. The question for the committtee is whether 
this witness shall be allowed to state what he found to be the 
reputation of the house in New York where Eva Bowen now 
lives. Is the committee ready for the question ? 
[The question was put.] 
The Chairman. One in the affirmative. I vote with the rest 
in the negative, and the question is rejected. 
Gov. Butler. If the chairman pleases, I must be at com- 
mencement to-morrow at Amherst. I am, ex officio, as you 
know, a member of the board of overseers of that college. 
The Chairman. Be here Thursday, Governor? Thursday 
morning ? 
Gov. Butler. Thursday I am to be in Exeter and Friday in 
camp. I should like to take a good solid da}’ like Saturday 
and go through; try to get some good solid time and I think 
we can make much progress. 
Mr. Brown. I said to the chairman of the committee the 
'other day that I would try to finish this week. At that time I 
did not know we were to be cut off one day last week. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think you are to blame about that. 
Mr. Brown. I want simply to say that I have made all my 
arrangements to go on through the week, and, perhaps, at some 
expense to the Commonwealth. 
The Chairman. My impression is that it is almost too late 
to meet Saturdays. Can you give us a solid week next week, 
Governor ? 
Gov. Butler. Saturday, and the week following, so far as I 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2371 
know, up to the twenty-seventh. It is only public duties, 
nothing else, prevents my being here. 
Mr. Wolcott. Mr. Chairman, to test the sense of the com- 
mittee, I move we adjourn till Saturday morning at half-past 
nine. 
The motion prevailed, and the chairman declared the hearing 
adjourned till Saturday at half-past nine. 2372 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
FIFTIETH HEARING. 
Saturday, June 23. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Moses Sargent (continued). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown, resumed. 
Q. Do you know Mr. Palmer who testified here as a wit- 
ness? A. I do. I know him only as I saw him here. I am 
not acquainted with him personally. 
Q. You are not acquainted with him personally. Do you 
know what is his reputation for truth and veracity? A. I 
know what it is in Exeter. 
Q. What is it in Exeter? 
Gov. Butler. Stop a moment; when did he learn it? Sup- 
pose he has gone down there within a week ; isn’t it rather post 
litem motam? 
Q. Did you ever know him till you saw him here ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Did you know there was such a man living until you saw 
him here ? A. I did not. 
Q. Did you ever hear of him in any way until you saw him 
here? Has an}’ knowledge of his character bv you been ob- 
tained from an}? source, except within three weeks? A. Well, 
it was directly after he testified. 1 went for the express pur- 
pose of finding it out. 
Gov. Butler. You went for the express purpose of finding 
something, and you found it? I think that cannot be admitted. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Did you go to Exeter at the time 
when His Excellency appointed Mr. Carrigan to go and t. ke 
depositions? A. I did. 
Q. Did you hear the testimony of any of His Excelled , ’s 
witnesses? A. The testimony of one of Mr. Carrigan’s wit 
nesses. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2373 
Q. Did be testify as to his reputation for truth and veracity 
while under oath ? 
Gov. Butler. Stop a moment. That is to be proved by the 
deposition itself, sir. You cannot prove what another man tes- 
tifies to. 
Mr. Brown. Well, the question is here : what is this man’s 
reputation for truth and veracity ? 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
The Chairman. Among the people where he has lived. 
Mr. Brown. Where he has lived. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I don’t care if the man was an absolute 
stranger up to the day when he went to Exeter to inquire. If 
he went there to that town in a fair and honorable way, and in- 
quired as to his reputation, and found it was bad, he has a per- 
fect right to testify, especially when he attended the examination 
at which His Excellency had called witnesses; and if he heard 
the witnesses testify as to this man’s reputation for truth and 
veracity, I submit there could be no clearer or more competent 
testimony as to what a man’s reputation is than that. Of 
course, under the objection which His Excellency raised, and 
under the rule which he has laid down, and which I am very 
much disposed to respect, it would not be proper for me to ask 
this man how he found out what his reputation was. But, when 
it comes to that, if either party is to be allowed, it will be found 
to be substantially this: that I sent Mr. Sargent to Exeter to 
look this man up, and that almost every man he came to — 
depot-master, expressman, postmaster, and all through the 
town — said that this man was notoriously a man who would 
not tell the truth ; and not onfy that, but that he was a thief. 
And then, to cap the climax, after all that, he listened to one of 
His Excellency’s witnesses, who testified, on cross-examination, 
that this man was notoriously a man without character, or repu- 
tation for truth and veracity, and was a thief, — one of His Ex- 
cellency’s own witnesses in Exeter. Now, I submit, if that is 
not enough to show knowledge on the part of this witness as to 
what a man’s reputation for truth and veracity is, I cannot con- 
ceive of anyway it can be shown to the committee. Is it neces- 
sary that this man should have lived in Exeter for any length of 
time—months, years, or any length of time—to know what Mr. 
Palmer’s reputation was? II'Mr. Palmer has any reputation in 
Exeter, it is very singular that it cannot be ascertained, and 2374 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
fairly ascertained by going to Exeter and inquiring. And then, 
it is said, that the reputation is to be proved by the deposition 
of this witness referred to. Well, I don’t know that that depo- 
sition will ever see the light. I am rather inclined to think it 
won’t. 1 am rather inclined to think that His Excellency, when 
he comes to read that deposition, and to see what his own wit- 
ness testified to as to another of his witnesses, won’t care to 
have it printed. I don’t know that he will; he may. I cannot 
oblige him to have it printed. I cannot oblige him to produce 
it. And not only that, it is not necessar}T to produce it. A 
man’s reputation is what people saj7 of him in the place where 
he lives. And the only question is as to the witness’s informa- 
tion : Did he get it truly? Not how old it is. 
The Chairman. As to the deposition, if I remember right 
in issuing the notice, I ordered them sent to the committee, 
sealed. 
Mr. Brown. Very true. But then I suppose — 
Gov. Butler. It was necessaiy to have this little fling at 
me. 
Mr. Brown. Not at all; not at all; not at all. 1 don’t 
think you would ever have taken it if you had known what the 
witness was going to testif}'. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know what I should have done if 
something else had happened that didn’t happen. Why talk 
about that? 
Mr. Brown. But I do know7 that His Excellenc}7 is not 
under obligation to submit it to this committee unless he 
chooses. 
The Chairman. It seems to me that a man’s reputation for 
truth and veracity should be testified to by some one who lives 
in the community ; that is ray opinion. 
Gov. Butler. I have never heard it otherwise. The ques- 
tion is : do you know those that did know him, that have lived 
wfith him ; because you can send out a detective and he will be 
keen, and if he goes to the right people he can swear down 
anybody. 
The Chairman. The committee will settle it. 
Gov. Butler. If there is any doubt about it I should like to 
be heard ; but take the time on it now. 
The Chairman. Some of the members of the committee have 
just come in and I will state the question. This man is asked 
if he knows what the reputation of Mr. Palmer is in Exeter — 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2375 
the witness who testified three or four weeks ago. It was 
drawn out on examination that he knows nothing about it 
except what he heard in Exeter, going up there during the talc- 
ing of depositions. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon ; he said he went there immedi- 
ately after Mr. Palmer testified.. 
Gov.-Butler. Yes. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) As I undei'stand, you have been 
there several times, have you, Mr. Sargent? A. I have. I 
went at that time while he was on the witness stand and found 
out something. 
Q. So you found out something the very day he was on the 
witness stand. A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That don’t alter it. 
The Chairman. The question is, whether he shall be allowed 
to testify to Mr. Palmer’s reputation for truth and veracity. 
Mr. Putney. I presume that Mr. Brown can get witnesses 
from Exeter to testify in regard to this party’s character; either 
in person or by deposition. 
Mr. Brown. I can get them to testify and I shall have them 
here to testify. I have been trying in every possible way to 
shorten this hearing. At the time when His Excellency’s wit- 
ness testified on cross-examination that Mr. Palmer’s reputation 
for truth and veracity was bad he was testifying under oath in 
the depot, in a little room with nobody present except the mag- 
istrate, the stenographer, Mr. Carrigan who represented His 
Excellency, Mr. Sargent and myself. And that was the reason 
why I called Mr. Sargent’s attention to it. 
Mr. Putney. I don’t think, Mr. Chairman, that sending a 
detective up there for the very purpose which he did go, for the 
purpose which he testified he went, is competent evidence before 
this committee, from the fact that he might pick up certain 
enemies of this party up there. 
Gov. Butler. As he did. 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me if evidence is to be given it 
should be that of parties who have known him and done busi- 
ness with him for years. 
Mr. Brown. That is precisely what I am going to do. 
There is not a man that he consulted who has not. 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me it is second-hand knowledge. 
As one member of the committee I would like to see the parties 
themselves. 2376 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
[The question was taken and the committee voted to reject 
the testimony.] 
Cross-examination by Oov. Butler. 
Q. Mr. Sargent, }~ou have been employed by whom in this 
case as detective? A. Mr. Brown. 
Q. And all the while? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you have done everything that you could, I sup- 
pose, to find things that would support the defence? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir. 
The Chairman. Before proceeding any further I should like 
to inquire about the bonds that have been offered here. I don’t 
find them among the papers. 
Gov. Butler. I had them once, that is certain, and I 
brought them in and used them, and then I suppose that I 
handed them over to Mr. Brown or somebody here. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think I have them, but if I have them— 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Innis, who has taken charge of my 
papers, says that he handed them to Mr. Brown the last he saw 
of them. 
The Chairman. I supposed it was understood they were in 
the case. 
Mr. Brown. You are right; I have them. 
The Chairman. If you will hand them to the stenographer 
he may enter them upon the record. 
Gov. Butler. I wish they might be put on now. 
The Chairman. The}’ may be considered in. 
Mr. Brown. I suppose there is no necessity for reading 
them. 
Gov. Butler. No necessit}- for reading them all. I suppose 
they are all alike. Give the dates. 
Mr. Brown. Then I will just identifj’ them. I will offer the 
bond of Oliver W. Holmes and Henry J. Bigelow to the super- 
intendent and inspectors of the state almshouse, which is dated 
the fourth day of September, 1858. 
Gov. Butler. Give the penal sum, will you, next time. 
Mr. Brown. I will. Excuse me for not doing so. 
Gov. Butler. To the inspectors, the superintendent, or 
their successors in the office. 
Mr. Brown. The sum of $100. Then I will offer the bond 
of Oliver Wendell Holmes and Henry J. Bigelow of Boston, in 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2377 
the penal sum of $500, dated the fourth day of June, 1864 ; the 
bond of I. J. Wetherbee and Robert L. Robbins to the superin- 
tendent and inspectors of the Tewksbury almshouse, in the sum 
of $500, dated the eighth day of January, 1875. 
Gov. Butler. I think the whole — I think the condition 
should be in the record. 
Mr. Brown. I understand they are to be printed entirely. 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Also the bond of Walter Wesselhoeft and 
Alonzo Boothby of Boston to the superintendent of the state 
almshouse in Tewksbury, in the sum of $500, and dated the 
twentieth day of November, 1874 ; also the bond of T. Haven 
Deering and Arthur H. Wilson to the trustees and superintend- 
ent. 
Gov. Butler. Of what? 
Mr. Brown. College of physicians and surgeons,— in the 
sum of $500 and dated the fourteenth day December 1881. 
[The bonds submitted were as follows:] 
“ Know all Men by these Presents that we, Oliver W. Holmes and 
Henry J. Bigelow, both of Boston, in the County of Suffolk and Com- 
monwealth of Massachusetts, Physicians, are jointly and severally 
held and stand firmly bound unto the Inspectors and Superintendent 
of the State Alms House at Tewksbury, in the sum of one hundred 
dollars, to be paid to the said Inspectors and Superintendent or their 
successors in office; to which payment, well and truly to be made, 
we bind ourselves, our heirs, executors and administrators firmly by 
these pi-esents.” 
“ Sealed with our seals and dated this twenty fourth day of Sep- 
tember in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and fifty- 
eight.” 
“ The condition of this obligation is such that whereas by an order 
of said Inspectors and Superintendent passed A. D. eighteen hundred 
and fifty-five, the bodies of certain persons' will be delivered to said 
Holmes, being a regular licensed Physician of said Commonwealth 
for the purpose expressed in the Revised Statutes, Chapter XXII, and 
subsequent acts, the said bodies being within the description and cir- 
cumstances mentioned in said Acts and required to be buried at the 
public expense; now therefore, if the said bodies of such persons so 
delivered and so received by the said Holmes and each and every 
such body shall be used only for the promotion of Anatomical 
Science, and shall be used for such purposes only in this Common- 
wealth, and so as in no event to outrage the public feeling; and after 2378 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
having been so used the remains thereof shall be decently buried, 
then this obligation shall be void; but otherwise shall remain in full 
force. 
Executed in presence of 
R. M. Hodges, Jr 
O. W. Holmes. [SEAL] 
Henry J. Bigelow. [seal] 
“ Know all Men by the Presents that We, Oliver Wendell Holmes 
and Henry J. Bigelow of Boston, in the County of Suffolk, and 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Physicians, herein acting as Offi- 
cers of and in behalf of the Medical Department of Harvard Univer- 
sity in Boston, are held and firmly bound unto George P. Eliot, F. 
II. Nourse and Horace P. Wakefield, as they are Inspectors of the 
State Alms House in Tewksbury, in said Commonwealth, in the sum 
of Five hundred dollars, to the payment of which sum to said In- 
spectors their successors and assigns we do bind ourselves, and our 
and each of our Heirs Executors and Administrators firmly by these 
Presents.” 
“ Sealed with our seals and dated the twenty-fourth day of June, 
1864. 
“ The condition of this obligation is such that whereas said Holmes 
and Bigelow have requested of said Inspectors permission to take 
the bodies of such persons dying in said Almshouse as are required 
to be buried at the public expense to be by them used within the 
State of Massachusetts for the advancement of anatomical science, 
agreeably to the provisions of the 27th Chapter of the General Laws 
of said Commonwealth, now if said bodies shall be used, by said 
Holmes and Bigelow only for the promotion of anatomical science 
within the State of Massachusetts so as not to injure public feeling, 
ami that alter having been so used, the remains thereof shall de- 
cently buried, then this bond shall be void, otherwise in full force.” 
Executed in presence of 
Chas. J. Hayden. 
O. W. Holmes. [seal] 
Henry J. Bigelow. [seal] 
“ Know all Men by these Presents that We, I. J. Wetherbee of 
Boston, and ltobt. L. Robbins of Boston in the County of Suffolk and 
Commonweath of Massachusetts, Physicians, herein acting as Offi- 
cers of and in behalf of the Boston Dental College, are held and 
firmly bound unto Francis H. Nourse, Daniel E. Safford and George 
P. Elliot as they are Inspectors and unto Thomas J. Marsh, Superin- 
tendent of the State Almshouse in Tewksbury in said Commonwealth 
in the sum of Five hundred dollars, to the payment of which sum to 
said Inspectors and Superintendent their successors and assigns we 
do bind ourselves, and our and each of our Heirs, Executors and Ad- 
ministrators firmly by these Presents.” 1883.j 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2379 
“ Sealed with our seals and dated the eighth day of January 
1875.” 
“ The condition of this obligation is such that whereas said Weth- 
erbee & Robbins have requested of said Inspectors and Superin- 
tendent, permission to take the bodies of such persons dying in said 
Almshouse as are required to be buried at the public expense, to be 
by them used within the State of Massachusetts for the advancement 
of anatomical science, agreeably to the provisions of the 27th Chapter 
of the General Laws of said Commonwealth, now, if said bodies shall 
be used by said I. J. Wetherbee & R. L. Robbins only for the promo- 
tion of anatomical science within the State of Massachusetss so as 
not to injure the public feeling, and that after being so used, the re- 
mains thereof shall be decently buried, then this bond shall be void, 
otherwise in full force. 
Executed in presence of 
C. F. Robbins. 
I. J. WETHERBEE. [Seal] 
Robt. L. Robbins. [seal] 
“Know all Men by these Presents that we Walter Wessellhoeft of 
Cambridge the county of Middlesex and Alonzo Boothby of Boston in 
the county of Suffolk and Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Physicians, 
herein acting as officers of and in behalf of the Medical Department 
of Boston University, are held and firmly bound unto Thomas J. 
Marsh as he is Superintendent of the State Almshouse in Tewksbury 
in said Commonwealth in the sum of Five Hundred dollars to the 
payment of which sum to said Superintendent his successor and 
assigns we do bind ourselves, and our and each of our Heirs, Execu- 
tors and Administrators firmly by these Presents.” 
“ Sealed with our seals and dated the twentieth of November, 
1874.” 
“ The condition of this obligation is such that whereas said Wessel- 
hoeft and Boothby have requested of said Superintendent permission 
to take the bodies of such persons dying in said almshouse as are re- 
quired to be buried at the public expense to be by them used within 
the State of Massachusetts for the advancement of anatomical 
science, agreeably to the provisions of the 27th Chapter of the Gen- 
eral laws of said Commonwealth, now if said bodies shall be used by 
said Wesselhoeft and Boothby only for the promotion of anatomical 
science within the State of Massachusetts so as not to injure public 
feeling, and that after having been so used, the remains thereof 
shall be decently buried, then this bond shall be void, otherwise in 
full force.” 
Executed in presence of 
George B. Jones. 
W. YVeSSELHOEFT. M. D. [SEAL] 
Alonzo Boothby, M. D. [seal] 2380 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
“ Know all men by these presents that we, T. Haven Deering, of 
Braintree, in the county of Norfolk and Commonwealth of Massachu- 
setts, physician and surgeon, and Professor of the principles and 
practice of surgery in and Dean of the Faculty of the College of Phy- 
sicians and Surgeons, a corporation duly organized and existing 
under the laws of said Commonwealth, at building numbered 34 on 
Essex Street in Boston, in the county of Suffolk and Commonwealth 
aforesaid, as principal, and Arthur H. Wilson, of said Boston, physi- 
cian and surgeon and Professor of general, descriptive and surgical 
anatomy in said college of Physicians and Surgeons, as Surety, are 
holden and stand firmly bound unto Francis II Nourse, George P. 
Elliot, William R. Spaulding, Emily F. Pope, Ellen S. S. Hammond, 
Trustees of, and Thomas J. Marsh, Superintendent of the State Alms- 
house at Tewksbury, Massachusetts, in the sum of five hundred dol- 
lars, to the payment of which to the said Trustees and Superintendent 
or their successors as Trustees and Superintendent of the State Alms- 
house at Tewksbury, we hereby jointly and severally bind ourselves, 
our heirs, executors and administrators.” 
“ The condition of this obligation is such that if each dead body re- 
ceived by us from the Superintendent of said State Almshouse in 
Tewksbury shall be used in the instruction of students of the Medical 
School of said Corporation only at its building or building occupied 
by it within said State for the advancement and promotion of ana- 
tomical science within said State, and so as in no event to outrage the 
public feeling, and after having been so used, the remains thereof 
shall be decently buried, then this obligation shall be void, otherwise 
it shall be and remain in full force and virtue. In Witness Whereof 
we, the said T. Haven Deering, and Arthur H. Wilson, hereunto set 
our hands and seals this fourteenth day of December A.D. 1881. 
Signed and sealed in presence of 
Darius Wilson. 
T. H. DEERING. [seal] 
Arthur H Wilson. [seal] 
Testimony of Hannah O’Connell (sworn). 
Q. What is your full name? A. Hannah O’Connell. 
Q. What is your business ? A. I am an attendant in the 
insane asylum at Tewksbury. 
Q. How long have you been there? A. I came there 
March 7, 1878. 
Q. And have you been there continuously ever since? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Were you under Mr. Dudley at any time as an attendant 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2381 
in the lunatic hospital? A. Yes, sir; h£ was the first gentle- 
man I worked under when I came there. 
Q. What did you do? A. I was their assistant. 
Q. Dudley’s assistant? A. And his wife’s; yes, sir. 
Q. That is, you assisted Mr. and Mrs. Dudley? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Did you know the Barron woman? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, when went there in March, 1878, was the Bar- 
ron woman confined in a cell ? A. She was. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long, continuously, after you went there was she 
still confined in a cell? A. She was there from the time I 
went there, the 7th of March, until July. 
Q. Until July, still confined in a cell? A. Yes, sir. 
. Q. What was done with her then? A. Well, after the 
change was made — 
Q. What change? A. Mr. and Mrs. Dudley left there and 
Mr. and Mrs. French took their places. 
Q. So that the woman was still confined in the cell as long 
as Dudle}' aud his wife were there? A. While I worked with 
them — yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear them say anything about how long 
prior to the 7th of March, when you came there, the Barron 
woman had been in the cell? A. I have no recollection that I 
ever did. 
Q. No recollection that you ever did? A. No, sir. 
Q. What was the condition and habits of the Barron 
woman? A. She was a filthy and violent woman. 
Q. A filthy and violent woman? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And she was restrained and kept in a cell all the time, 
was she? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was she ever taken out? A. She was taken out occa- 
sionally to be bathed, whenever it was necessary. 
Q. Was she ever taken out for anything else? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was her cell for any considerable period of time in a 
filthy condition? A. No, sir : I don’t think it was. 
Q. Never that you ever saw? A. No, sir. 
Q. What sort of a cell was it? A. It is a cell in the 
upper part of the building ; it has ventilation on both sides. 
Q. Ventilation on both sides? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was there over the door a large aperture which was cov- 
ered with some sort of bar work? A. No, sir; those bars 
are on each side of the room. 2382 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now if there had been anything like filth in that room it 
would have been communicated — you could have smelled it in 
other parts if it was in anv considerable quantity? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) This would be up stairs? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, on this same floor where this 
cell was were there any others kept? A. That was the only 
cell that was used on that floor. 
Q. Was there any people who slept there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was it on the dormitory floor? A. It opens olf of the 
dormitory. 
Q. So that at night, the room, of which the cell constituted 
a part, would be occupied by a large number of the other 
inmates, would it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many? A. Generally thirty-two. 
Q. Generally thirty-two inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now at any time while you were there did you have to 
do wijth the Barron woman ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you assist in washing or bathing her? A. I 
attended to it. 
Q. Now was she poor in flesh? A. She was very 
emaciated, except in her face. 
Q. Except in her face? A. Yes, sir; and that was quite 
fleshy. 
Q. Was there any change in her condition particularly 
while you were there and had to do with her ? A. I didn’t 
notice anything specially. 
Q. Now, do you mean to say that in July, 1878, you recollect 
that you left that building, or did Mrs. Dudley leave the institu- 
tion? which was it? A. They left the institution and I still 
remained. 
Q. So that up to the time when they left that institution the 
woman was still in the cell ? A. She was, sir. 
Q. You went there in 1878; what time? A. The seventh 
of March. 
Q. What? A. The seventh of March. 
Q. The seventh of March, 1878? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You went there as an attendant? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where did you go from ? A. From Tewksbury there. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2383 
Q. What? A. From the town of Tewksbury. I lived 
there in Tewksbury. 
Q. You lived there in Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What had you been doing up to that time? A. I 
hadn’t been doing anything. 
Q. Been to school ? A. 1 had been living at home a little 
while. I had got through school. 
Q. When did you leave school? A. I left school about a 
year and a half before I went there. 
Q. And had you done anything, except at home? A. Yes, 
sir ; I had worked at Lowell six months, and at Lawrence six. 
Q. In the mills ? A. No, sir; house-work in Lowell, and 
dress-making in Lawrence. 
Q. Then 3’ou went to Tewksbury ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In March, 1878? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. At how much a year? A. I had four dollars a week for 
the first six months, and then I had twenty-one dollars. 
Q. Four dollars for the first six months, and twenty-one 
afterwards? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. About how old were you when you left school ? A. I 
was about fourteen and a half. 
Q. What? A. About fourteen and a half. 
Q. And a year and a half after that you went to Tewksbury 
as an attendant? A. I was fifteen and a half. 
Q. Well, which? A. I was seventeen when I went to 
Tewksbury. 
Q. Which was it? A. Fifteen and a half. 
Q. When you left school? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Sixteen and a half? Well, don’t you know when I asked 
you how old you were when you left school, }tou said fourteen 
and a half? A. I didn’t think about it then. 
. Q. I know you didn’t think of it. You didn’t think of it 
until I began to call your attention to how young you were 
when you came to be a nurse for insane women? Now, you 
think, you are a couple of years older? Yes, precisely. You 
were born in Tewksburj'? A. No, sir ; I was born in Lowell. 
Q. Did your people live on the street where you were born 
some time ? A. I could not say as to that. The}r didn’t a 
great while ; no, sir. 
Q. Didn’t a great while? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you know the street where you were born ? A. I 
think it was Marion Street; I think it was. 2384 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. Yes; there is such a street there. Your name was 
Honora? A. My name? 
Q. Yes? A. Hannah. 
Q. Hannah? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, when was your attention first called—or, rather, 
where is this Barron woman now? Is she alive or dead? A. 
I could not sav, sir. She was removed from Tewksbury in 
1880. 
Q. In 1880. You don’t know where she has gone? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. When was your attention first called to her condition, 
one way or the other, after you left her? A. After I left 
her ? 
Q. Yes. As to whether she was in one condition or an- 
other? When did you first think about it again ? A. I didn’t 
leave there at all. 
Q. I know. You got apart some way? A. Well, she was 
removed from there. 
Q. When did you first think about her condition, one way or 
the other, after you parted ? A. I don’t understand. 
Q. You went apart sometime ? A. Yes, sir; when she 
left. 
Q. Now, then, when did you first think about her condition 
after that? A. I didn’t think much about her until this inves- 
tigation opened. 
Q. Did you think anything of her, one way or the other? 
A. Not very often. 
Q. Not much, I think. Now, were you there when Mr. 
Dudley came? A. No, sir. 
Q. When Mr. and Mrs. Dudley came you were not there? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you know how long they had been there when you did 
come? A. No, sir; I am not sure. 
Q. Now, what were your duties,—not to this woman, partic- 
ularly, but to the others? A. Well, there were certain parts 
of the building I had to look after, and the women’s clothing. 
We make all their clothing,—sewing and cutting. 
Q. Then you had to do with the sewing and cutting in 
the sewing-room? A. It was divided between us. We both 
looked after it, Mrs. Dudley and I. when she was there. 
Q. And 3’our duties were principally confined to the sewing- 
room? A. No, sir ; I had about half the building. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2385 
Q. Half the building to do what with? A. To look after ; 
attend to the cleaning of it, and the sweeping. 
Q. Cleaning, and what else? A. Sweeping and making 
the beds. 
Q. What else? A. I had the dining-room. 
Q. You have the dining-room? A. Yes, sir; to see that 
the things were put around. 
Q. And the sewing-room? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, speak up loud. These gentlemen say they can’t 
hear. A. Yes, sir; we looked after the sewing-room between 
us. 
Q. You looked after the sewing-room between you,—you and 
Mrs. Dudley ; and you had to look after the dining-room? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Any other duties? A. At that time — I mean when 
Mr. and Mr. Dudley were there — that is all I recollect. 
Q. All you had to do was to look after the dining-room and 
the sewing-room ? A. And the upper dormitory. 
Q. The upper dormitory. What did you do there — when 
Mrs. Dudley was there? A. I had to attend to the cleaning 
of it; see that the beds were made and that it was kept in a 
proper condition. 
Q. Anything else up there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then you were sewing, looking after the dining-room and 
seeing to the beds in the upper dormitory ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, you call the upper dormitory this garret where the 
Barron woman was confined ? A. Her cell leads off of it; yes, 
sir. 
•i 
Q. Did you have the cleaning of her cell? A. I did not 
at that time, sir. 
Q. Did you at any time? — Well, by “ that time ” you mean 
while Mr. and Mrs. Dudley were there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then that was none of your business. Well, who did 
it? A. That I don’t know. 
Q. You have forgotten that. You remember a little how the 
cell was, but you don’t remember who took care of the cell? 
A. I know I didn’t have orders to clean it. 
Q. Well, it was filthy there, was it not? A. When I saw 
it 1 didn’t call it filthy ; no, sir. 
Q. You didn’t call it filthy ; it was all clean? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Habited by a very filthy person, a very violent person, 2386 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
but still it was very clean. That you testify, do you? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Was not this woman so filthy that she didn’t mind at all 
where she answered the calls of nature? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. As tilth}’ as that. And yet the room was always clean? 
A. Whenever I saw it. 
Q. How many times did you see it? A. I could not tell 
you. 
Q. Tell me as nearly as you can? A. I didn’t go up there 
very often ; sometimes once a day, and perhaps not once in two 
or three days. 
Q. You mean into the dormitory? A. Into the cell. 
Q. Did you go into the cell as often as once in two or three 
days? A. Sometimes I didn’t; I had no business to be there. 
Q. Now, who fed this woman? A. One of the girls — one 
of the patients. 
Q. What? A. One of the patients there. 
Q. An idiotic girl? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you found her very emaciated? A. Yes, sir; all 
except her face. 
Q. All excepting her face, very emaciated. Well, and now 
you think she remained in the cell all the time until Mr. and 
Mrs. Dudley went away? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How much longer? A. Only a very few days. 
Q. A very few days? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. About how long? A. Well, as near as I can recollect 
I don’t think it was more than two or three days, if it was that 
long. 
Q. Two or three days? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. She was then taken out? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Taken down into the room where the rest were? A. 
No, sir; she was taken down into the basement. 
Q. And put into a cell there? A. No, sir; she sat on a 
settee there. 
Q. Taken into the basement. Who else was in the base- 
ment? A. Well, the patients can go up and down just as they 
have a mind to. 
Q. They could go up and down as they had a mind to. That 
was a sort of sitting place. Was that the patients’ sitting- 
room? A. No, sir; she was such a woman that she could not 
be kept up stairs ; she was so filthy. 
Q. She was so filthy that she was put down in the basement 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2387 
where these patients ran up and down when they chose to? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. She was taken down stairs because of this filthiness of 
hers? A. Why, no ; I don’t think that was the reason. 
Q. Why? A. Because she was too confined. I don’t 
know, but that is what I think. I think she was too confined 
up there, shut up in the room all the time. 
Q. Yes ; shut up in that room was too bad, so she was taken 
down? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. After she was taken down she still continued her filthy 
habits? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was she chained, tied or strapped to anything? A. 
Yes, sir; she was strapped to a’ settee. 
Q. She was strapped to a settee, and kept all the time 
strapped to a settee? A. Not all the time ; no, sir. 
Q. Well, as a rule? Of course she would have to walk about, 
I suppose. She would have to get off of the settee sometime 
or else she would have excuse for her bad habits? A. She was 
a woman that would go to the stove and burn herself; and she 
would scratch arid bite besides that. That is why she wore re- 
straints. 
Q. She would not scratch and bite anybody that didn’t inter- 
fere with her, would she? A. Yes ; she would. 
Q. How many months was she kept strapped down or tied 
down to that settee ? A. I could not tell you for certain. 
Q. All the time untill she left? A. Well, she was not 
strapped down all day. 
Q. No; but as a rule she was kept strapped there? A. 
Most part of the time. During the summer months she was 
taken out into the yard. 
Q. Strapped there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then she only changed her place from being strapped 
down in the basement to being strapped down in the yard. 
Where was she taken to? A. I heard she was taken to 
Worcester; I could not say for certain. 
Q. To Worcester. Now, after she was taken down and out 
into the yard in 1880, did she recover her flesh any? A. I 
didn’t notice anything very much changed in her; no, sir. 
Q. She changed something for the better, didn’t she? A. 
She looked a little better. The fresh air agreed with her. 
Q. The fresh air agreed with her. Well, but, if I under- 
stand you, in answer to my question you said there is plenty of 2388 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
fresh air up in the attic, with two holes and bars across them, 
right out of the room on both sides? A. Well, it came from 
the building. 
Q. All the air that came in came from the building, and all 
the air that came out went into the building, into this attic, 
didn’t it? A. I presume so. 
Q. There was no opening out into the air of heaven? A. 
Not out of the cell; no, sir. 
Q. Was it under the roof of the attic? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And ran down to nothing on the back side ? A. It is a 
square ceiling ; perfectly level. 
Q. Then it is a flat roof? A. The building is not exactly 
a flat roof; I don't know what you call it — French roof, I 
think. 
Q. But it don’t have any French or dormer windows into 
that cell? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then all the way this woman got air in that cell was 
what came in out of this—? A. Hallway. 
Q. And how large a room was that? A. What, the hall- 
way? . 
Q. Yes. A. I could not give you the exact dimensions. 
Q. It came out into this hallway? A. Into the hallway; 
yes, sir. 
Q. Then this room didn’t open into where anybody slept? 
A. Yres, sir ; the door opened off of the dormitory, but the ven- 
tilator is on the side where the hallway comes up. 
Q. What windows are there in this hallway? A. There 
are none. 
Q. What is there? A. At one end of it there is a door 
opening into it. 
Q. The door leads down stairs ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long is this hallway? A. Well, five flights of 
stairs ; there is a door between. 
Q. But it comes to the roof at the top where the cell was? 
A. Y~es, sir. 
Q. Now, how long was this hall? A. I could not tell you 
exactly ; it is not a very large hall. 
Q. About how many feet wide? Four feet wide? Is it 
as wide as this? [Space between desks of the committee.] 
A. A good deal wider than this. Probably eight or ten feet 
long. 
Q. How wide is it? A. Perhaps six or seven feet. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2389 
Q. Then it is a little square place that leads in there and 
door opening into the hallwa}'? A. It opens into another 
dormitory. 
Q. Any other dormitory that has a cell like this one ? A. 
Yes, sir ; but there is a window in that cell. 
Q. Anybody kept in that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was there anybody while, you were there kept in that 
cell with a window? A. No, sir. 
Q. What was kept there? A. They used it for a storage 
room. 
Q. A storage room? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. I think I can understand. They have a dormitory that 
had a window in it up there, and that was used for storage ; 
and the dormitory that hadn’t any window in it was used for a 
cell? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, when the door was shut that cell was dark? A. 
Well, it is not very dark ; no sir. 
Q. Well, but I suppose you could not see to read very fine 
print? A. Well, there is a skylight outside in the hallway 
that admits light. 
Q. Into the cell? A. Into the hall. 
Q. Now, then, how large were those openings between 
those bars; as big as that? [Indicating several inches.] A. 
No, sir; about so wide between each bar. [Indicating two or 
three inches.] 
Q. How long were the bars? A. I should think two feet 
and a half long. 
Q. And the bar about the same size as the hole? A. Yes, 
sir ; I think so,— about the same. 
Q. And there is a skylight that admits some light into this 
hall? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then what light }'ou get into the cell would come 
from these holes ? A. From the hall. 
Q. It comes through these holes into the hall, and the air 
comes in that same direction? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Is it not pretty dark up there? A. No, sir; not very 
dark. 
Q. What do you mean by not very dark? A. It is light 
enough to see to read up there. 
Q. To see to read? A. Well, I could see to read there. 
Q. Ever try it? A. I have read writing that was in a let- 
ter in there ; yes, sir. 2390 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, then, that was when the door was open? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Very well, that is another thing. Shut the door and then 
try it. Did you ever try it with the door shut? A. I don’t 
recollect that I ever did. 
Q. IIow big was this room, anyhow? A. I don’t know, 
exactly. 
Q. Was it more than six feet square? A. I should think 
it was. It is longer than it is wide. 
Q. How wide is it? A. It is perhaps six or seven feet 
wide and perhaps ten feet long. 
Q. The length ran back from the door? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did that woman have any bed in there? A. She did. 
Yes, sir ; at night. It was taken out during the day. 
Q. And any other furniture? A. Nothing except a bed. 
Q. None except a bed? A. No, sir. 
Q. Anything else in the room except a bed? A. That is 
all. 
Q. Sure? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Can’t you be mistaken, now? A. That is all I ever saw 
there. 
Q. Well, you saw it enough to know, didn’t you? A. I 
think I did. 
Q. If you would not give a woman a night bucket, you 
would not blame her for doing anything she pleased anywhere, 
would you. A. Well, I never gave her one. 
Q. You never gave her one. Then she wasn’t to blame for 
not using it when she hadn’t it; that is the condition of things, 
isn’t it? A. I didn’t have the care of her. 
Q. Very well; now, then, we have got this woman very 
much emaciated, shut up in a room seven by ten, if you please, 
in a dark room, in an attic, in July, under the roof, with no air 
except it comes through these holes, nothing to sit down upon 
in the daytime, nothing to lie on, and a bed taken out at 
night — 
The Witness. Through the day. 
Gov. Butler. Taken out through the day, if she had one; 
and you say that she was kept confined there from the time you 
went there down to the middle of July? 
The Witness. Sometime in July ; yes, sir. 
Q. And doing her own filth on the floor? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2391 
Q. Now, when she wTas confined up there was she taken out 
at all? A. She was taken out when she needed bathing. 
Q. She was taken down and bathed and put back again? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. She would scratch and bite when people came up there? 
A. If she didn’t have restraints on she did. 
Q. What? A. Restraints. 
Q. What? A. Restraints. 
Q. Was she tied up there at that? She wore restraints 
up there at that A. Yes, sir.? 
Q. How was she restrained up there? A. She wore a 
leather muff and wristers. 
Q. Leather what? A. Muff and wristers. 
Q. What were they tied to? A. Nothing; it was strapped 
around her waist. 
Q. So as to hold her hands? That is to say, she had a muff 
around her hands, and wristers, and that was strapped around 
her waist so as to hold her in that position? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, that didn’t prevent her from biting. How did 
they manage to keep her from biting? A. Keep away fi’om her 
and she could not bite you. 
Q. Well, but she could follow you right out? A. When 
her hands were tied she could not bite you ver}’ well unless you 
got pretty close. 
Q. I know; but she could bite if you got close enough. 
Was there any restraint to keep her from following you out? 
A. No, sir ; she could walk about in the room. 
Q. Ever bite you? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or hit you ? A. She attempted to ; yes, sir. 
Q. And this idiot fed her? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, now, Miss O’Connell, if you had been put up in 
that room in July, with your hands strapped around you, with- 
out any air, without any night bucket, without any chair to sit 
on, and attended by an idiot to bring your food, don’t you 
think you would have scratched and bit a little ? A. I don’t 
know, I am sure. 
Q. Do you spell your name Connor or Connell? A. O’Con- 
nell. 
Q. Have you ever been called Connor up there? A. Some- 
times ; yes, sir. 
Q. You are known there as Hannah O’Connor? A. No, 
sir ; as Hannah O’Connell, m}T proper name. 2392 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I know that is your proper name, but I want to ask you : 
were 3’ou more than fifteen years old when you went to the 
almshouse? A. I was seventeen when I went to the alms- 
house. 
Q. Have you ever said to anybody — or, before we go to 
that, who got you there ; how came 3'ou to go there? A. My 
father asked the superintendent for a place. 
Q. Asked the superintendent? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that you came there through the superintendent. 
Have you ever said to anybody, in substance, that the Marshes 
had to take you ; that you were only a little more than fifteen 
years old — A. I was seventeen. 
Q. I know 3'on told us fourteen and a half. A. I said 
when I left school I was fourteen and a half. 
Q. You said first fourteen and a half and then afterwards 
sixteen? A. No, sir; fifteen and a half. A 3Tear and a half 
from the time I left school I went to the almshouse. 
Q. Well, so you were sixteen when you went to the alms- 
house. Did you ever say that the Marshes had to take 3rou, 
because your father used to take care of the boxes and shipped 
them to Exeter? A. No, sir; I never said an3rthing of that 
kind. 
Q. Never said anything about it? A. Nothing of the sort. 
Q. Now, have yon ever said that anybod3’ there used to sell 
the hair the3' cut off of the women? A. No, sir; I never did ; 
I could not sa3T it, and say the truth. 
Mr. Brown. The supreme court have said that the witness 
ma3* sa3T that. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. You said never mind. She said she could not 
have said it, because it would not be the truth. You said 
never mind that. And the supreme court sa3Ts that is a proper 
remark for a witness to make. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t sa3’ that it was not, only it took time 
to make it. If she didn’t say it, that settles it. 
Q. What do 3’ou think of Mr. and Mrs. Dudley ? A. I 
liked them veiy well to work with. 
Q. AVere they good people? A. They were very kind to 
me. 
Q. Were the3T kind to the other people? A. I think the3r 
were. 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2393 
Q. And took good care of them? A. I don’t know as I 
was qualified to judge how they took care of other people. 
Q. You were not qualified to judge how they took care of 
other people. Why not? Here you were getting pretty large 
wages. Your name in the auditor’s report, and }rou are one of 
those attendants we have heard so much about. You were 
brought here to tell about the treatment of the women. I 
thought you were qualified. Now, when I ask you about the 
Dudleys, you don’t know ns you are qualified. Why? Have 
you ever said that Tom Marsh — or I will go back a little. 
Did you use to write letters to the Dudleys? A. I had one 
letter from Mrs. Dudley after she left. 
Q Did you send any to her? A. I never answered it; no, 
sir. 
Q. Have yon said to any one, as a reason why you didn’t 
answer it, that Tom told yon not to write to Mrs. Dudley, “ or 
she may write something that may come out against us? ” A. 
He never said anything of the kind to me ; no, sir. 
Q. Did anybody ? A. My father told me not to write to 
her. 
Q. Your father told you not to write to her? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. When did he tell you that? A. After I received the 
letter. 
Q. Just after }'Ou received the letter? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you got that letter? A. No, sir ; I have not. 
Q. Where is it? A. I suppose it is destroyed. 
Q. Was it a kind letter? A. Yes, sir; quite so. 
Q. Anything in it that should not be? A. I don’t recol- 
lect that there was. 
Q. Simply a kind letter to one that she had been kind to; 
and you had been kind to her? How long was that after the 
Dudleys left? A. I could not say for certain; about two 
months, I think. 
Q. They had gone down where? A. Down to Danvers; 
that is what I heard. 
Q. The letter came from Danvers? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And they wrote you from where they were — or she 
wrote you a kind letter. Why shouldn’t }Tou answer that kind 
letter, written by a kind friend who had been gone away for two 
months? A. I thought I should obe}T my father. He asked 
me not to. 2394 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I know; you should obey your father; but you would 
have written if your father hadn’t told you not to? A. I 
probably should have. 
Q. Why did your father tell you not to write to this woman ? 
A. I never knew his reason. 
Q. Did you show him the letter? A. No, sir. 
Q. How came he to find out 3’ou had it? A. I told m3' 
folks about it. 
Q. Spoke about it where ? A. At home. 
Q. Did you speak about it in the institution? A. Yes‘ 
sir. 
Q. What did your father sa3' to 3’ou ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. We 
{have had a good deal of hearsay ; but this is too remote. 
Gov. Butler. The remoteness has passed away, I think. 
.Mr. Brown. I admit it. We have come to antiquit3', now. 
Gov. Butler. The remoteness has passed awa3T, I think, 
when we admitted 1)3' the solemn vote of this committee what 
an old lady said to a man — that Austin Farm doctor ; 1 don’t 
remember his name —• who, being summoned, and wanting some- 
thing to tell, went down and asked an old woman who was not 
very bright, and that was admitted by a solemn vote of the 
committee. 
Mr. Brown. Because she had been an inmate of Tewksbuiy. 
Gov. Butler. Now, I am upon this question : this girl comes 
here to contradict Mr. and Mrs. I)udle3r. 1 want to show under 
what influence she is. Mr. and Mrs. Dudley, she sa3rs, were 
kind to her ; and the3T should have been to such a child, that was 
sent there to take care of insane people. One of the attendants 
we have heard of. Mrs. Dudley—there being perfectly good feel- 
ing between them—when she was wrote to her. And this 
girl sa3’s she would have written a letter — she would have an- 
swered that letter, except her father told her not to. Now, I 
want to know what there was, what change, under what influ- 
ence that was done — the reason w 1)3' it was done; what the 
Dudleys knew about this institution that it was not safe for the 
people to know who corresponded with them. The Dudleys, 
3'ou remember, went out with a certificate from Dr. Lathrop ; 
and we are investigating — that is all this woman is brought here 
for — she is brought here to tell a story, which will be examined 
iy and by. Now, the question is whether I, on cross-examina- 
tion, not putting in evidence in chief, as was the case in the 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2395 
Austin Farm case — shall I ask the witness what was said to her 
and the influence under which she is testifying here now — a 
mere child then, and substantially, if her testimony just given 
was correct, an infant now in the eye of the law. The ques- 
tion is: shall I, on cross-examination, ask that question. 
Mr. Brown. Of all absurd propositions this is the most 
ridiculous. This man has nothing to do with this institution. 
He never was an inmate, never was insane, had nothing to do 
with its management, and is not responsible for its management 
in any way, shape or manner. This young lady was at the 
institution, and knew Mr. and Mrs. Dudley. After Mr. and 
Mrs. Dudley left, she received a letter from Mrs. Dudley, which 
she mentioned at home, and her father advised her not to an- 
swer it. And if he knew as much about Mr. and Mrs. Dudley 
as we have learned here, it was a very prudent suggestion on 
the part of the father. 
Gov. Butler. I want to demonstrate his prudence by what 
he said. 
Mr. Brown. Now, is there any sense possible, can you qon- 
ceive of an3' — certainty none has been suggested — can you 
conceive of an}7 ground which he has not thought of, on which 
that can be competent — a conversation between this girl’s 
father and this girl as to why she should not write to the Dudleys. 
I cannot conceive of an}-; I have not heard any stated. 
Gov. Butler. 1 have got it another way ; now 1 will with- 
draw the question, sir. 
Mr. Brown. All right; thank you. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Your father was station agent, there, 
wasn’t he? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. One of your witnesses, wasn’t he? 
Gov. Butler. I cannot cross-examine two at a time. 
Q. And he was station-agent on what road? A. The Bos- 
ton & Lowell. 
Q. And he had the care of freight backwards and forwards ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
A. And he would know what went by the Boston & Lowell 
road, and where it went to, and whom it went to ? A. I sup- 
pose so. 
Q. There is no doubt about it, is there, that he has told you 
pot to answer Mrs. Dudley’s letter ? A. No, sir. 
ty. No doubt about that. How long after you got it? A, 2396 
CHARITABLF] INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
I could not state exactly how long it was. It was not a great 
while. 
Q. Now, then, state what it was. Did he give you a reason 
for it? A. He only said to me not to write. 
Q. Don’t tell me what he said, because that would be 
objectionable ; but tell me whether he did or did not give you a 
reason ? A. He did not. 
Q. lie told you not to write and you didn’t write. Ever 
seen Mrs. Dudley since? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or Mr. Dudley? A. No, sir. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown, 
Q. You were asked when your attention was called, after 
1880, to the matter of this Barron woman? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. 1 want now to ask you if j'our attention was ever called 
to it until you heard what Mr. Dudley testified in regard to her? 
A. It was never called to it, sir. 
Q. Until then? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I so understood it. 
Q. Now, this idiotic girl who fed that Barron woman still fed 
her all the time while Dudley had charge of her? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All the time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And if this Barron woman didn’t have a night bucket 
Mr. Dudley could have prevented it, couldn’t he? that is, he 
could have given her one, couldn’t lie? A. I presume so. 
Q. Have you any doubt about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. If she was strapped down to a settee — 
Gov. Butler. That was not done until after they left. 
Q. If her hands were strapped together in what you call a 
leather muff, Mr. Dudley could have prevented it, as far as yon 
know? A. Well, it was necessary to have her hands tied. 
Q. Well, was not he judge of the necessit}", being in charge 
of the building? 
Gov. Butler. Is not that a question beyond the witness? 
Mr. Brown. Well, I am willing to leave it that she was 
strapped in that way while Mr. Dudley was there. 
The Witness. Yes, sir ; she was. 
Mr. Brown. And that saint would not have allowed it if it 
hadn’t been necessary. 
Q. Now, this idiotic girl that we have heard so much about, 
was she absolutely an idiot or was she a sort of demented per- 
son? A, She is not very demented. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2397 
Q. Well, how demented is she? Give us au illustration of 
her capacity? A. She is capable of doing errands — some 
errands. 
Q. If you give her an errand and tell her to go across the 
yard and get a glass of milk, can she go and bring it back to 
you? A. Yes, sir ; she could. 
Q. And she is not a vicious person? A. No, sir. 
Q. She is gentle? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And kind? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Can do errands and do them well? A. She does ; yes, 
sir. 
Q. And was always employed by Mr. Dudley, the saint, to 
carry that woman the food she fed on? A. She was. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do you know that Mr. Dudley 
swears he found her not competent and did it himself for 
awhile. A. He didn’t after I came there. 
Q. lie didn’t after you came there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Your father is dead, isn’t he ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You are there now? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You have been retained under the 
new management? A. Yes, sir. 
Testimony of Emil A. Grothusen {recalled). 
Mr. Brown. Now, Governor, Mr. Grothusen lias prepared 
those percentages and entered them upon the margin. 
[The witness produced the table known as exhibit X, printed 
on the following pages.] 2398 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Comparative Statement of Quantity and Cost of Sundries, 1862-1882, Number of Inmates being about the same; 
Number of Employes Increased Threefold. 
[Inmates, 1862, 913; Inmates, 1882, 895: Decrease of Inmates, 1.96 per cent.] 
ARTICLES. 
Quantity, 
1862. 
Quantity, 
1882. 
Cost, 1862. 
Cost, 1882. 
Increase and Decrease. 
< 
Employes, . •*’. 
22 
53 
_ 
f Increase of employes, 
. 140 per cent. 
Salaries, . 
$7,227.49 
$19,510 77 
- 
- 
\ Increase of cost, 
. 170 
it 
Flour, 
274,596 lbs. 
328,496 lbs. 
$6.02 per bbl. 
$7.20 per bbl. 
f Increase of cost, 
\ Increase of quantity,. 
. 19 
. 19 
tt 
tt 
Corn, 
148,400 lbs. 
100,800 lbs. 
59 cts. per bush. 
83 cts. per bush. 
f Decrease in quantity, 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 47 
. 40. 
Cl 
It 
Salt meat, 
42,000 lbs. 
43,000 lbs. 
$9.43 per bbl. 
$14 per bbl. 
( Increase in quantity,. 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 2.4 
. 48. 
u 
It 
Fresh meat, 
52,566 lbs. 
88,228 lbs. 
6T6jj cts. per lb. 
7T3ff cts. per lb. 
f Increase in quantity, . 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 68. 
. 1.06 
tt 
tt 
Salt fish, . , 
16,000 lbs. 
22,415 lbs. 
If cts. per lb. 
3§ cts. per lb. 
( Increase in quantity, . 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 40. 
. 109. 
tt 
tt 
Fresh fish, 
21,982 lbs. 
33,117 lbs. 
cts. per lb. 
4J cts. per lb. 
f Increase in quantity, . 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 50. 
. 70. 
tt 
tt 
Groceries,. 
- 
- 
$641.85 
$1,347.22 
Increase in cost, 
. 109. 
tt 
Sugar, 
4,349 lbs. 
33,012 lbs. 
10| cts. pr. lb. 
8J cts. per lb. 
Increase in quantity, vii 
tually none in ’62, 
Molasses, , 
41,512-lbs. 
7,848 lbs. 
24f cts. per lb. 
49£ cts. pr. gal. 
! Decrease in quantity, 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 81. percent. 
. 103. 
Tea, .... 
657 lbs. 
5,307 lbs. 
40 cts. per lb. 
26 cts. per lb. 
Virtually none in 1862. 
Coffee, 
*_ 
7,333 -lbs. 
- 
14£ cts. per lb. 
tt tt it 
Butter, 
3,127 lbs. 
16,460 lbs. 
18 cts. per lb. 
21 cts. per lb. 
f Increase in quantity, 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 426. 
. 16.66 
tt 
* tt 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. BOO. 
2399 
Eggs, 
1,578 lbs. 
2,802 lbs. 
Yl\ cts. pr doz. 
24 cts. per doz. 
f Increase in quantity, 
\ Increase in cost, 
.76. per cent. 
. 38. 
Beans and Pease, 
6,240 lbs. 
18,599 lbs. 
\\ ct. per lb. 
4t% cts. per lb. 
f Increase in quantity, 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 200. 
. 230. “ 
Rice,. ... 
50 lbs. 
9,843 lbs. 
6| cts. per lb. 
6t% cts. per lb. 
Virtually none in 1862. 
Oat Meal,. 
2,300 lbs. 
9,200 lbs. 
2f cts. per lb. 
3J cts. per lb. 
C Increase in quantity, 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 300 
. 50 
Rye Meal, 
600 lbs. 
3,600 lbs. 
1£ ct. per lb. 
2-| cts. per lb. 
/ Increase in quantity, 
\ Increase in cost, 
. 500 
. 50 “ 
Crackers, . 
6,088 lbs. 
None. 
cts. per lb. 
- 
None in 1882. 
Potatoes, . 
196,800 lbs. 
None. 
44 cts. per bu. 
- 
None in 1882. 
818,845 lbs. 
730,360 lbs. 
• 
Drugs, Surgical In- 
$1,435.14 
Increase in cost, 
. 234. per cent. 
struments, Artif. 
V $429.17 
$1,435.14 
$429.17 
Limbs and Trusses, 
Coal, 
tons. 
2,192 tons. 
$4.65 per ton. 
$5 per ton. 
Increase in quantity, 
Increase in cost, 
. 246. 
. 8. 
* None except for officers’ use. 2400 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we haven’t the totals here. 
Mr. Brown. Well, add the totals. 
[The totals requested were subsequently added and appear 
on the table as printed on pages 2398, 2399.] 
The Witness. If the chairman will allow me I would like to 
correct my testimony. The error is not a part of my report; it 
was collateral testimony which I gave from memory in regard to 
coffee. His Excellency suggested at the time that ten cents 
was a very cheap price for Rio coffee, and that three cents was 
a big price for roasting. The price of the coffee was thirteen 
or thirteen and a half cents, and the price of roasting was half 
a cent per pound. It does not appear in my report, but I 
wanted to correct it. 
Gov. Butler. It is in your testimon}T, and I think it had 
better be corrected. I knew that ten cents was a small price 
for Rio coffee. 
Testimony of Thomas J. Marsh (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. You have been superintendent of the Tewksbury alms- 
house, haven’t you, Mr. Marsh? A. Yes, sir; I have. 
Q. By the way, how old are you? A. How old? 
Q. Yes? A. My mother used to tell me I was born on 
the 7th day of March, 1805. 
Mr. Brown. Well, that is the best evidence we have. 
Gov. Butler. — I won’t say it lest I should be misrepresented. 
Q. How long have you been connected with this institution? 
A. Twenty-five }rears ago yesterday morning. 
Q. Twenty-five years yesterday morning. That was the 22d 
day of June, 1858, was it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you made your first report on the first day of 
October, 1858, did you? A. Yes; I think there were two 
reports made. The retiring superintendent made one, and I 
made one covering a short time. 
Q. Who was your predecessor? A. Isaac II. Meserve. 
Q. Do you know whether he was there from the time the in- 
stitution was built, in 1854, down to the time you took it? A. 
I think he was ; yes, sir ; all the while. He was there previous 
to its being opened. He was there at the furnishing of it, 1 
believe. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) He superintended the building? 
A. No, sir ; not the building, but the furnishing. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2401 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Those buildings were built in 1854, 
were the}7? A. 1 think previously, sir. I think they were 
opened by the governor’s proclamation for the reception of 
inmates the first day of May, 1854 ; that is to the best of my 
recollection. 
Q. Now, will you turn to page 26 of the report of the state 
almshouse for the year 1858 and tell me if that is the report 
which you made at that time? A. To the inspectors — yes, 
sir. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Chairman, I don’t know what is the 
view of His Excellency in regard to these reports, but I want to 
call the attention of this witness to very many things which are 
contained in them, commencing with 1858 and coming down to 
the present time. I don’t want to read the reports in full, but 
if His Excellemw is willing to consent I would like to have the 
reports treated as in the case, with the right of either party to 
refer to them for such purpose as he may deem necessary. 
Gov. Butler. I think if by having them in the case you 
mean they are to be printed,— 
Mr. Brown. I don’t want them printed. 
Gov. Butler. I think, all official reports — I should take 
the right to refer to everybody’s official report. 
The Chairman. I should like to have that agreement, that 
official reports may be referred to. 
Mr. Brown. Including House and Senate documents. 
Gov. Butler. Everything that is official. 
Mr. Brown. I only thought we had better have an under- 
standing about it. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly, sir, I should make free use of 
them. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Marsh, I want to call your attention 
on page 26th of this report to language used by you at that 
time. 
Gov. Butler. JVIiy should we go over it now? 
Mr, Brown. I want him to testify in regard to certain mat- 
ters, and I want to call his attention to a paragraph in the 
report. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t want to limit anything ; go on. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
“ In my opinion there is required more school accommodation. We 
now have in one room, all the children of the institution who attend 
school. Their daily average attendance for the past year has been 2402 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
two hundred; very soon, doubtless, that number will be increased. 
I therefore recommend that a new school-room be provided, to the 
end that there may be a division of the school.” 
Gov. Butler. Why should we go into that when we know 
that the school was taken away a good many years ago to Mon- 
son, and there has not been a word of evidence on one side or 
the other about schools. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know but I may as well state my view 
about this matter. This man has been superintendent of this 
almshouse for twenty-five years, lacking a short time. He is 
charged, in the language of His Excellency, during that period, 
with “ stealing like the devil.” 
Gov. Butler. I have not said that, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I beg iyour pardon. The official report shows 
that you said, only last week, “they stole like the devil” at 
Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; but I didn’t say that this man did. I 
think this was a pretty good institution until his boys grew up, 
if you want my view about it. 
Mr. Brown. Then this man is an honest man, you admit, 
do .you? 
Gov. Butler. I have no admissions to make on one side or 
the other. 
Mr. Brown. Yer}' well; then I will go on with the case. 
Gov. Butler. But then you must not state what is not true. 
I said “ they,” and I think we shall find it out before we get 
through. 
Mr. Brown. I think this witness may be fairly included in 
the expression “ they ” unless }T>u except him. 
Gov. Butler. I am not going to except anybody. 
Mr. Brown. Very well. We will consider him as one of 
them. “ They stole like the devil.” Now, this man’s charac- 
ter has been attacked; and in the charges made against this 
man His Excellency has voluntarily to 1861 and 
1862. I purpose to show, with the permission of this commit- 
tee, just what this institution was when he took it. And I 
purpose to show that in every one of these reports which I hold 
in my hand there is a specific request made to the inspectors or 
trustees of this institution, and in almost every case followed 
by another specific request that the legislature be asked for an 
appropriation to do that which in his judgment ought to be done 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2403 
with this institution. And I desire to show to this committee 
how this institution has grown up year by year, this man 
patientty waiting, sometimes going before the legislative com- 
mittee six times before he got the appropriation which in the 
judgment of the legislature afterwards was deemed proper and 
important. Asking in three successive years for proper and 
suitable provisions for the insane ; asking in two or three suc- 
cessive years for a new pest-house, so that those infected with 
the small-pox might be removed from others and have suitable 
accommodations ; asking from time to time for barn room, so 
that a suitable number of cows could be kept to feed these 
people with milk who needed it. Now, I think it is fair and 
proper that this man should have an opportunity of showing 
what he has done, commencing with the time when he 
took the institution and coming down to the present time. 
Gov. Butler. What is all this about? I haven’t objected. 
Mr. Brown. Well, you haven’t heard ; you haven’t been 
listening. 
Gov. Butler, I haven’t objected to anything. Why this 
explosion? I asked you if you wanted to go back to the 
school, and then I said: I won’t object if you do, and there was 
an end of it. 
The Chairman. I don’t think there is any issue, Mr. Brown. 
I don’t understand him to object. 
Mr. Brown. He certainly didn’t use those words. 
The Chairman. I think the proper way would be for you to 
call his attention — 
Gov. Butler. 1 agree a part of this was said ; however, we 
will see. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, I want to know what the con- 
dition of the children was who were to be educated at that insti- 
tution when you went there. What was their condition ? A. 
I think the school was in one of the dormitory wards. 
Q. Do you recollect which one? A. It is what is now 
called the old ladies’ ward. 
Q. What is now the old ladies’ ward? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You had an instructor there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was there a chaplain of the institution there at that 
time? A. There was ; not a resident chaplain. 
Q. At any time was the office of chaplain and instructor in 
one? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Held by one person ? A. Yes, sir, 2404 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. When were those children removed? A. From the 
institution ? 
Q. From the institution? A. It was after the building for 
the chronic insane was put up and finished. 
Q. They were there in 1862, were they? A. Yes, sir; 
after. 
Q. At the time when you received the letter from Gov. 
Andrew, addressed to the children, which was read in evi- 
dence. Now, take the report for 1858. I notice you used this 
language in your report: — 
“ In consideration of the quantity of milk required daily, and the 
sum annually paid for it, I suggest the importance of purchasing a 
sufficient number of cows to supply the demand.” 
What was the fact at that time? Was there a sufficient supply 
of milk? A. They used to purchase all they had. I think 
there were two cows when I assumed the charge ; they were fat 
Durham cows. They didn’t give much milk. I asked why they 
were kept, and they said to supply the superintendent’s table 
with milk. I very soon had them turned into beef and ate 
them up. 
Q. Do you recollect the number of inmates you had in the 
first year }rou went there? A. When I went there? 
Q. Yes; on the 22d day of June, 1858? A. I think the 
number then was 550 or 555 ; it was a fraction between fifty 
and sixt}7; in the winter it used to be much larger. 
Q. Now, sir, I will take your report for 1859. On page 15 
I notice you use this language : — 
“ I wish to call your attention to the urgent need we have for en- 
larged storage accommodations. I would recommend that an addi- 
tional barn be built, say, sixty by forty feet, with twenty feet posts 
under the whole of which there should be a cellar suitable for the 
storage of vegetables raised upon the farm. The cellar I could have 
dug and stoned by the inmates during the winter. The expense for 
lumber, slating, &c., would probably not exceed eight hundred dol- 
lars. Should the above meet your approval, I respectfully request 
you to ask the legislature for a sum sufficient to enable me to build 
such a barn.” 
What was the accommodation at the time when you made 
that report? A. For the storage of vegetables? 
Q. Yes, sir, A. Well, sir, all the buildings — the large 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2405 
buildings, the original buildings —had cellars under them ; but 
they had been ruined for the purpose of storing vegetables, by 
having steam-pipes run through them, keeping them warm in 
winter. 
Q. So that you had at the time when that report was printed 
no suitable place for the storage of vegetables? A. No, sir. 
Q. What quantity of vegetables, in round numbers, were you 
raising upon the farm? Well, at that time, the quantity was 
smaller, considerably, than now, although I could not state 
what we had. 
Q. Do you recollect how many acres there were in the farm at 
that time? A. I should think not far from 125 or 130 acres. 
Q. What is there now ? A. About 250. 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, I want to call your attention to this, 
on page 13, of the report for 1860 : — 
“It has been deemed advisable to have a small building separate 
from the main house for the treatment of contagious diseases. The 
old farm-house has hitherto been used. When so used, it has always 
excited the fears of the citizens by reason of its peculiar location, and 
has been once complained of as a nuisance, to the grand jury. It is 
not worth repairing, and will no longer meet the wants of a pest- 
house. A new one should be built.” 
What was the fact, in regard to that, at that time? A. 
Just as stated, sir. 
Q. How was this old farm-house situated with reference to 
the other buildings? A. It was on the east side of the build- 
ing, perhaps one hundred or more rods from the back side of the 
barn. 
Q. Was it within what is now the present inclosure of the 
almshouse? A. Do you mean the fence? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. No, sir; it was not. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do I understand it was objection- 
able, because the farm-house was near to citizens’ buildings? 
A. It was on the bend of the road. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Where the new house is being built, 
or where there is a cellar? A. No, sir; it is out the other 
way. I can show you on the other map, the old map. [Map 
referred to, and location pointed out.] 
Q. How far removed from the other buildings ? A. Well, 
there are the other buildings. 2406 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. The 100 scale is fbet to the inch. Some 700 or 
800 feet. 
Q. Where is the other pest-house? [Location pointed out.] 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, I want to call your attention to your 
report for the j'ear 1861, page 13, to this language; tell me 
what the fact was in regard to this matter: — 
“You are aware that when you entered upon the supervision of 
this institution many deficiencies existed in its accommodations and 
arrangements. Not only a wise economy, but the comfort and safety 
of the inmates demanded for these an immediate remedy. By the 
prompt attention of the executive and legislative departments to the 
recommendations of your Board, these wants have been supplied, 
with a single exception. An ample and never-failing supply of pure 
water has been introduced into the almshouse and out-buildings. A 
capacious and substantial barn has been built to receive the increas- 
ing produce of the farm. Large reservoirs have been constructed, 
and exposed fields have been inclosed with enduring walls. A new 
pest-house, too, is in process of erection, and will soon be ready for 
occupancy. Those improvements, absolutely necessary, and too long 
deferred, have apparently increased the expenses of the institution 
for the last three years, but will henceforth tend to their diminution. 
“ The only exception above alluded to is the want of suitable 
accommodations for the insane.” 
Now, I want to know what, in 1861, were the accommoda- 
tions for the insane? A. In 1861 there was one building, one 
story high. 
Q. Show me where it was, wfill you? [Location indicated 
on plan.] 
Gov. Butler. At what time will the committee adjourn 
today ? 
The Chairman. We should like as long a session as we can 
have. 
Gov. Butler. I can give just as long as you please, only 
sometime, I suppose, we shall take a recess. I only wanted to 
know so that I could make an appointment. I don’t care what 
hour it is. 
Mr. Risteen. I move that we adjourn at twelve o’clock, for 
the day. 
The Chairman. Some sa}~ twelve and some say one. 
[The question was put to the committee and it was voted to 
adjourn at one o’clock.] 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Then, if I understand you, Mr, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2407 
Marsh, the accommodations for the insane at that time, in 
1861, consisted of a brick building? A. No, sir; a wooden 
building where the brick building now stands. 
Q. It stood on the precise spot where the brick building 
now stands, on the left of the gateway". The large brick build- 
ing is the new hospital? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How large a building was it? 
Gov. Butler. The same size as now? 
The Witness. No, sir; it has been enlarged twice, I think. 
Q. (By7 Gov. Butler.) I know ; I got it wrong. I meant 
to say that the new building was the same size as the old one. 
A. No, sir ; one was 318 feet long and the other about 30. 
Q. (By- Mr. Brown.) Was it the same width? A. About 
20 or 30 feet, I should think. 
Q. Had it three rooms ? A. Two rooms. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) And it was built in, 1861 ? A. 
Well, this I am speaking about, that wooden building, 20 or 30 
feet long — 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That was all the accommodation you 
had at that time ? A. For the insane. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Marsh, take the report — 
Gov. Butler. You don’t give, now, how big a building they 
built in answer to this report of 1861. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) They didn’t build any in 1861? A. 
No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. He had to go several times. 
Gov. Butler. Whenever they7 did build it. 
Mr. Brown. Whenever they did I will show the size of it. 
Gov. Butler. Hadn’t you better read that whole report of 
1861, showing why they wanted to build it; not because he 
hadn’t enough then, but because he wanted more there. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
“ Large numbers of this class have been transferred hither from the 
lunatic hospitals. They are confined at present, in an insecure 
wooden building, utterly unsuited to the purpose intended. An 
immediate change is required by a proper regard to the claims of 
humanity and common decency. A fire-proof brick building, heated 
by steam, and provided with all needful accommodations, can be 
erected for four thousand five hundred dollars, as estimated by a 
competent architect. 
“ That this will be a measure of economy7 as well as humanity, 
will appear in the following estimate : — 2408 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
“ The State now pays $130 per annum for the support of its insane 
patients in the lunatic hospitals. They can be supported here at an 
average cost of $52 each. The hospitals are now uncomfortably 
crowded with a class of harmless incurables, whose transfer to the 
almshouse would be welcomed by their managers. The difference 
of cost to the State would be $78 per annum in each case, while in a 
proper building they would be cared for equally well. If only sixty 
patients should be so transferred, the saving would be $4,680 in a 
single year, being more than the whole cost of the building alluded 
to, and in each succeeding year a similar saving would be effected. 
In ten years it would amount to nearly $50,000. It surely can make 
but little difference whether the sum of forty-five hundred dollars be 
paid to the hospitals for the support of these inmates, over and 
above what it would cost here, or to the almshouse, for the provision 
of suitable accommodations, at a reduced cost for their support. I 
therefore most earnestly recommend an application to the legisla- 
ture for an appropriation sufficient for the purpose indicated.” 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, you didn’t get that that year? 
A. No. 
Mr. Brown. Now I come to the report for 1862. 
Gov. Butler. Does that report show how many insane he 
actually’ had? 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; it does. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, from the time you took posses- 
sion of this almshouse, as its manager, up to 1862, you depended 
almost entirely upon pauper labor, did you not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Your report states the number so employed. A. I 
presume it does. 
Q. And the auditor’s report? A. Yes. 
Q. Now, I want to come to this question : From 1858, when 
you took possession of the almshouse, down to 1879, what 
means of discipline had you used at the almshouse? A. Well, 
from the first, when I first went there, they had cells in the 
basements of the buildings for women and for men, with iron 
bars, iron gates and heavy locks, etc. 
Q. Did you use them? A. Sometimes, if we had to. 
Q. How frequently? A. Not very often. 
Q. What was the principal mode of discipline and the chief 
punishment resorted to by you prior to 1879? A. Well, sir, I 
never had any very great trouble with anybody, if they were 
sober or hadn’t delirium tremens or something of that sort. 
Q. What was the means of punishment? 
Gov. Butler. He has told you — the cells. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2409 
Mr. Brown. No; be lias not. 
The Witness. I was going to say that at the time of the in- 
vestigation at Bridgewater I was asked about that same matter 
and my reply was that I hadn’t very much discipline ; that my 
people were well-behaved as a rule, and that I treated them 
kindly. I never commanded them to do anything, but asked 
them if they would ; and they always would. The}’ asked me 
what I would do, supposing I came to some great lazy fellow 
who would not work, and I told them I didn’t have an}' such 
cases ; I didn’t have trouble of that kind. 
Q. Did you ever have occasion,— did you sometimes use as a 
means of punishment a threat to expel them from the institu- 
tion ? A. To expel them ? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. Oh, I have discharged them ; yes, sir. 
Q. You have discharged paupers as a punishment? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Was that generally sufficient punishment? A. It used 
to answer pretty well. 
Q. Used to answer all purposes? A. Usually. 
Q. You never had any trouble or disorder there in the insti- 
tution during the time you have been there of a serious charac- 
ter? A. Well; sir, I think it will compare favorably with any 
of the institutions. 
Q. I don’t ask that. Do you recollect any instance where 
you have had any considerable amount of insubordination or 
lack of discipline? A. I do not. 
Q. How frequently have you resorted to that means of pun- 
ishment — expelling men from the institution ? A. Discharg- 
ing him and sending him away ? 
Q. Yes. A. I could not tell definitely. 
Q. Well, generally. A. Not very often ; not very often. 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, come to your report of 1862 ; upon 
page 9 — 
Gov. Butler. I cannot find the number of insane [in 
1861] ; perhaps you can. 
Mr. Brown. You will find it in the physician’s report. 
Gov. Butler. I have read the physician’s report carefully ; 
that is, his tabulated report. He has got all the diseases but 
insanity. 
The Witness. When I first went there we had about 'twenty 
in this small building I spoke of. 2410 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. That is what I wanted to find. I thought 
the report would show it. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t find it. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Marsh says that when he first went there 
he had about twenty in that small building. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, I notice that on page 9 of the 
report for 1862, you used this language : — 
“ So successful here has been the application of pauper labor to 
agricultural pursuits, that it has become a question whether the pur- 
chase of additional land for farming purposes will not be a step both 
judicious and economical.” 
Did you use pauper labor entirely at that time? A. We had 
a few hired men at that time ; the number employed is given 
there. 
Gov. Butler. He sajTs in another part of the report that 
there was a drawback because a good many of the able-bodied 
men had gone to the war. 
The Witness. Some had. That is the 3Tear, I believe, that 
was compared with last year. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
The Witness. I wish you would read a 'passage in the 
report of the inspectors, returning thanks to Gov. Andrew for 
a large supply of clothing. You didn’t happen to see that. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, I saw that. 
The Witness. Did you see it? 
. Gov. Butler. Yes, I saw it. They have not been permit- 
ted since. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] . 
“ The inspectors take this occasion to acknowledge the receipt 
from the Executive Department of the Government, of a liberal 
supply of men’s garments; those originally intended for our soldiers, 
but discarded for others, have proved most timely and servicable, and 
will diminish our clothing account very materially.” 
Gov. Butler. They were gray clothes. 
The Witness. That was why the expense of that year was 
somewhat lessened. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) So that that was one of the reasons 
why the expense of 1862 was considerably less? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, about how did that affect the running cost of the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2411 
institution? A. Well, I cannot tell you, sir. I have no defi- 
nite idea about it; only about what would be paid for the men’s 
clothing. 
Q. Do you recollect about how much that would be? A. 
Perhaps the report would tell it. I have not been in the habit 
of carrying those things in m37 mind because I knew my books 
showed it. 
Q. Now, on pages fourteen and fifteen of this report [for 
1862] I notice )7ou speak of the amount of milk which was 
raised upon the farm, the amount of ha)", etc. If I understood 
correctly you gradually continued buying cows, the milk of 
which was used at the institution ; and 3rou increased from two 
cows in 1858 to how man)7 cows now? A. We have in milk 
to-da)7 forty-eight. 
Q. Fort)7-eight cows ? A. In milk. 
Q. Is that the largest number )7ou ever had ? A. It is about 
as large ; )Tes, sir. I should think so. 
Q. The largest number )7ou have ever had? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. In 1862, I see by page fifteen of the report, )7ou had 
twenty-five cows ; but it does not state how many were in milk 
at that time. A. We have more than fort)T-eight now in 
milk. 
Q. You have fifty-five here this winter? A. Oh, we have 
six or eight coming in with calves, and then we have twenty in 
pasture. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading from page 16, report for 1862], — 
“ In the last report allusion was made to certain permanent im- 
provements, ‘ necessary and too long deferred,’ which the inspectors 
had been gradually making during the past three years, and which 
had apparently increased the expenses of the institution, that would 
henceforth tend to their diminution. It was further stated that these 
improvements had been completed, with the exception of suitable 
provision for the insane, which then awaited and still awaits the 
action of the legislature.” 
Q. (By7 Mr. Brown.) How many years, do you recollect, 
bad you been to the legislature to get suitable accommodations 
for the insane ? A. Most alwa)7s I kept on until I got it. 
Mr. Brown. Most always )7ou kept on until )7ou got it. 
That has appeared in all the reports up to now. 
Gov. Butler. What )ear was that? 2412 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. 1862. 
Gov. Butler. How many insane were there then? 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Do you recollect how many insane 
there were then, Captain? A. I do not. 
Mr. Brown. Don’t the report show? 
Gov. Butler. 1 have been looking. I supposed it should 
appear in the last part. 
Mr. Brown. I notice on page 18 of the report for 1863 it 
says 34 insane had been transferred to this institution. 
Gov. Butler. A change had been made of some sort, and 
the policy of transferring them had been adopted. 
The Witness. I think they were put into the house among 
the other patients for a time. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) They could not have been put into 
that building? A. No. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Do you recollect what, if any, prop" 
erty was destroyed by lire there in ’63 ? A. ’63 ? 
Q. Did you have a fire there, or a boiler explosion, or some- 
thing, about that time? A. I don’t remember the year; we 
had a terrible boiler explosion there. You will find that men- 
tioned, if that is what it was, sir, — the only fire that I remember 
was .one of a Sunday ; there was some old clothes lying in the 
wash-room near where there was an opening in the chimney, 
and some coal set them on fire, that was a matter of no great 
account, — till we had the cook-room burned up. 
Q. I notice, Mr. Marsh, that in your report for 1863, page 
19, you use this language : — 
“In closing this tenth annual statement, it is with pleasure that I 
accord to many of the inmates congregated here from time to time, 
general good deportment while here, and alacrity with which they 
perform their varied duties.” 
Up to that time do you recollect if there had been any 
serious difficulty in the discipline of this institution? A. 
Never have had an}’ since we have been there. 
Q. Now, come to the report for 1864 ; I want to ask you 
if there had been any change in the character of the inmates of 
the institution from 1858 to 1864, which you called the attention 
of the public to in this language, and, if so, what was it? 
“ As the year that has past has been unlike any of its predecessors, 
so its cares and anxieties have exceeded those of all. The unprece- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2413 
dented rise in the cost of the most necessary articles of food and 
clothing, of labor and fuel, would alone have made it all but impos- 
sible to support an average population of 733 with an appropriation 
based upon ordinary prices. But when to this is added the partial 
failure, by reason of the excessive drought, of those crops on which 
we place our greatest reliance, and the withdrawal of the able-bodied, 
who have in time past performed most of our labor, it would be sur- 
prising if the appropriation were not largely overrun. I need not 
remind you of our earnest and united labors to meet this exigency. 
It has called for the exercise of the strictest economy consistent with 
humanity, and of every expedient our ingenuity could devise. The 
result is before you, and can hardly fail to give you complete satis- 
faction. The sum total of all our net expenses, ordinary and extra- 
ordinary, for the year ending Sept. 30, 1864, will fall short of 
$50,000.” 
Now, what was the change which you describe as the with- 
drawal of able-bodied men? A. I take it it was the action 
of the board of health, whatever it was, board of charities, or 
whatever it was. 
Q. Well, what did they do? A. They discharged all the 
able-bodied men, and sent them off. 
Q. Discharged them, and sent them off? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Well, where? 
Q. Where? A. Let them go where they pleased. 
Q. That is, did not keep them at the institution ? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Up to that time had yon had a large number of able- 
bodied men who worked on the farm and elsewhere ? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q, And who were productive laborers? A. Yes. 
Q. And who cost the Commonwealth nothing except their 
board? A. Board and clothes. 
Q. Board and clothes. Won’t you illustrate how such men 
would come there, and be kept? A. They would come in the 
fall of the year, in the beginning of cold weather, and stay 
through the winter, and then they would be anxious to get out, 
and say they could get work, and of course they would discharge 
them. 
Q. Now, what work would these men do in winter which 
would be of value to the Commonwealth? A. Not near so 
much as the summer work. We used to dig muck in the winter 
time, and if we had any cellars to dig or stone to get out, or 2414 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
anything of that sort, we would do all we could to keep them 
employed. 
Q. Now, I notice you use this language in the very next 
paragraph: — 
* “ The improvement of the farm has been continued to an extent 
limited only by our lack of laborers. In this respect, we have suf- 
fered in common with the other institutions, and have been foi'ced to 
rely almost solely on the old men and the harmless insane.” 
Gov. Butler. Does he mean they went off to the war? 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; 1 suppose so. 
Gov. Butler. I n 1864 the large bulk were taken off. 
Q. Now, since 1864, has that condition of things which ex- 
isted prior to 1864 ever been repeated, when there was a large 
number of able-bodied men in the institution ? A. Oh, it has 
got so, to-daj-, sir. we cannot hardly do the work of the insti- 
tution with the people that are there. 
Q. When you say the work of the institution, do 3rou mean 
the farm work? A. No, sir ; I mean the work of making the 
beds, of cleansing the house, and doing the necessary in-door 
and about-the-liouse work. 
Q. I noticed that in one of your last reports, I think it is 
the one for 1880, you have asked that the cobble-stones be re- 
moved from the yard, because you say the people who go 
around are so decrepit they cannot walk over the cobble-stones ; 
is that so? A. I have asked for it once or twice. 
Q. Is that the fact? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That these cobble-stones are a great inconvenience to 
locomotion ? A. Those were put down twenty years or more 
ago, and they served a tolerable purpose then, because we 
didn’t mind so much about them, — younger then than now, I 
suppose. 
Q. And your people there in better health generally ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Can you recollect, and are you able to testify that there 
has been a marked change in the character of the inmates, so 
far, as to their general health? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And condition of mind and body? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I suppose you meant by your question change 
for better, — or change for the worse, which ? 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t mean to limit him either way; I only 
wanted to get at the fact, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2415 
Gov. Butler. I know ; he only says there is a eliange, and 
leaves us. 
Mr. Brown. I was going to ask him another question. 
Q. What has been the change? A. In the condition of 
the inmates? 
Q. Improvement, or what? A. The insane, the aged, the 
feeble, the decrepit of all kinds and complexion, — it is a per- 
fect Lazaretto. 
Q. How man}r inmates was your average of last year? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, we have that. 
Mr. Brown. I know it; but I want to call his attention 
to it. 
A. I should think it was about, — I can’t give it precisety,— 
somewhere about — 
Gov. Butler. 895, I think it was. 
The Witness. Yes, sir ; 895. 
Q. And, in 1862, it was 913. Now, out of these 895 in- 
mates, what number of persons are there who are able to do 
anything, either sweeping, washing, or any labor about the 
house or farm? Give me your best judgment about it; I don’t 
care to be absolutely accurate. A. Well, I should think in the 
neighborhood, take everything, to do all manner of work, there 
might be a hundred. 
Q. Might be a hundred? A. I would not pretend to be 
absolutely certain about it. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What do you mean by doing all 
manner of work? A. I mean washing, and scrubbing, and 
sweeping, and making beds, and tending the chickens, and 
everything of that sort; not farm work, I don’t mean. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Carrying the food to the inmates? 
A. Yes, sir ; and cooking, baking bread. 
Q. Some of them work on the farm ? A. A very few ; I 
should think there was not to-da}’, working on the farm, of in- 
mates ten men. 
Q. Ten men ? A. There might possibly be that, including 
those who help take care of the cows: we always get somebody 
who can’t work much out on the farm. 
Q. To take care of the cows? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then think out of all the males in that institution 
to-day, there are not exceeding ten who are able to do any 
work? A. To work on the farm. 2416 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. On the farm ? A. Yes, sir; I may not have got that 
quite right. 
Q. Now, the character of their labor is what? A. Well, it 
would take more than two to make one man. 
Q. Have you got a man there, who is a pauper, who can put 
his hand to a plough and hold it to be drawn by a pair of 
horses ? A. They don’t do it; I don’t know that we have any. 
Q. You don’t think you have any. What do they do on the 
farm, pick stones? A. Well, they hoe, this time of }Tear; such 
work as that; get them out to hoe when the}T could not do the 
planting. 
Q. What other kind of work? A. They do a little in the 
garden ; lie down under the wall, and such things. 
Q. Chiefly lying down under the wall, I suppose, isn’t it? 
A. Largely. 
Q. Got more than ten men who can do that, haven’t you? 
A. Oh, yes, sir. 
Q. What other kind of work do you keep these harmless 
inmates engaged at? A. We have to team all our coal. It 
takes one man to drive the horse and dump cart, and about two 
men to shovel the coal, and we have some that are working in 
all these kinds of ways; somebody has to do it. 
Q. Speaking of coal, I notice you bought 527 tons of coal 
in 1862 and you have somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,600 
tons— A. 2,100, wasn’t it? 
Q. Twenty-one hundred tons in 1882 ; what is the occasion 
of that increase in t,li£ consumption of coal? A. In the 
earlier days we had two boilers that blew up, burst and blew 
up and did so much damage, — two common-flue boilers ; and 
now we have about ten, I should think. 
Q. What size boilers ? A. The present ? 
Q. Yes. A. Four, five of them are large tubular boilers, 
I should think four, five, by anywhere from thirteen to fifteen 
feet long, perhaps longer. 
Q. And what are those boilers used for? A. Heating the 
house, cooking. 
Q. 'That is, you have steam-pipes run through the different 
buildings? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Heating the houses and cooking? A. Yes, sir; we 
have some low-pressure boilers. 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, 1 want you to indicate on the map the 
different buildings that have been built since 1862. I want you 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2417 
to take a pencil, Mr. Marsh, and just put your initials on each 
one of those buildings. A. I can’t do that; won’t you do it; 
I will point them out? 
Mr. Brown. Every one that has been built since 1862. 
Gov. Butler. And while you are about it, Mr. Brown, won’t 
you have him indicate how many have been torn down or 
moved ? 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; I will. IIow many have been torn down 
or removed, and the spot, the site of each of such buildings? 
The Witness. Yes, sir ; on this side [referring to the map], 
here is the gate entrance ; that was the building that was blown 
up at the time of the boiler explosion ; nothing left of it but the 
walls ; that is the cook-room and baking-house. 
Q. That has been rebuilt, has it? A. Yes, sir; on the 
same foundation, the same wall, all but the roof. That is the 
boiler-house which has been put there since. 
Q. That is what building? [Referring to plan.] A. That 
is now the men’s hospital; that is 318 feet long. 
Q. . That has been built? A. Yes, sir ; that has been built. 
That [referring to plan] is the chapel, that has been built; that 
is the new water-closet for the men, that has been built; that is 
the brick building the}' call the shanty, I believe. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That is what? A. Where the 
men sit. 
Mr. Brown. Where the men lounge ; they call it the shanty ; 
we have heard it called the shanty. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now take the other buildings within 
the enclosure. A. That [referring to plan] was a part of the 
building I spoke of, perhaps 10 by 20 feet, — Oh, that building 
[referring to plan], that is for the insane. 
Q. That entire building? A. Yes, sir; that was built one- 
half and then that was added to it. That is, with the basement, 
four stories high. About one-half of that building there [re- 
ferring to plan], one-half of it was originally there as the build- 
ing for the insane; about one-half, — I don’t pretend to be 
accurate, — about one-half has been built. 
Q. You say originally there for the insane ; where did it 
come from? A. It came from down here, sir [referring to 
plan] ; stood there just at the left hand of the entrance to that 
gate. 
Q. Do you recollect which half it is? A. I think it is this 
half. [Referring to plan.] 2418 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And that part [referring to plan] has been built 
new? A. Yes, sir. That building and that [referring to plan] 
were the old buildings that used to stand somewlieres along 
here [referring to plan], across that path. I suppose that rep- 
resents the walk from the office? 
Q. Yes. A. That building used to stand somewhere about 
here. [Referring to plan.] 
Q. Is that the place, indicated by that dotted line there? 
[Referring to plan.] You see this dotted line? A. I should 
think it was farther from the office than that. 
Q. When were they moved, Mr. Marsh? A. The}' were 
moved before the erection of that building. [Referring to 
plan.] 
Q. Do you recollect when that was ? A. That was seven- 
teen years ago, when the first half was built. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Moved at that time ? A. You re- 
member I don’t pretend to be precise about these things ; but as 
near as I can give them. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, take any other new buildings 
within that inclosure? A. That one [referring to plan], that 
is the present women’s hospital; they are united, that building 
and that [referring to plan], by a corridor. And that [referring 
to plan] has been built. 
Gov. Butler. What is that? 
Mr. Brown. That is the gas-house. 
The Witness. Gas-house. That has been built [referring 
to plan], that is the laundry ; and that [referring to plan] has 
been built; that is the boiler-house that runs the laundry. The 
store-room has been moved, simply. 
Q. Where was that moved from? A. From somewhere 
about there [referring to plan] ; that was moved back. It was 
raised up for the purpose of getting cellar room to salt our pork. 
We had no place on the premises where we could salt our pork 
and keep it, and so we moved this [referring to plan] back, 
raised it up, and put a cellar under it, — last year, I think, it 
was. 
Q. Now, take these out-buildings here? [Referring to 
plan.] A. I don’t know as I shall be able to recall them all. 
Q. I don’t know as I care to spend time on that. I will ask 
you this question : What buildings were there there in 1858, 
when 3on went there? This barn? [Referring to plan.] A. 
There was one barn ; I think that [referring to plan] must be 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2419 
the main barn. Then there was a shed came along here [re- 
ferring to plan], something like that. 
Q. I want to ask 3rou what is the size of that green-house? 
A. I never measured it, but I could give a Yankee’s guess, 
you know. 
Q. Yes. A. Ten to 20 to about 20 to 30. 
Q. And what is it used for? A. In the summer time it is 
not used at all; in the winter, for placing bulbs and flower-pots, 
and things of that sort, —such as are set out on the grounds at 
this time of year. 
Q. In the summer? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, this area between the insane hospital, the two hos- 
pitals and the hospital near the entrance and the main building, 
is devoted to the cultivation of flowers in the summer time, 
is it? A. And shrubbery. 
Q. Flowers and shrubbery? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that hothouse is kept simply for the purpose of pro- 
tecting bulbs which are there planted in the summer time dur- 
ing the winter months? A. Yes, sir; and raising'others to 
supply the place of those that pass away. 
Q. Do you keep a regular hothouse there in winter for the 
purpose of raising flowers for the .table of the superintendent? 
A. 1 was not aware we did ; no, sir. 
Q. Do you raise any considerable number of flowers there 
in the winter? A. No, sir. 
Q. What is the character of what you have in that hothouse 
in winter? A. Well, they are what you would see on the 
ground now, taken in. They flower out in the summer time, 
and, of course, there would be some flowering in the winter, but 
it would be very small comparatively. 
Q. Very small. A. In that large square, when I went to 
Tewksbury, there was not a tree nor a shrub of any kind ; now 
it is pleasantly filled with that sort of thing. 
Q. How much territory is there in acres or fraction of an 
acre ? A. I could not tell you, sir. 
Q. Give us a rough guess. A. Well, I should say there 
was an acre. 
Q. That is laid out in walks? A. Yes. 
Q. Green sward? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Shrubbery and flowers in beds? A. Yes, sir; anything 
to make it attractive and pretty. 
Q. And, now, I want to ask you, Mi\ Marsh, by whom has 2420 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that been done? A. That has been done by a man that we 
have usually had for a gardener; he has had the general super- 
intendence of it, although my son Charles has quite a taste 
for these tilings, and he lias done considerable of it; and there 
has been, sometimes, some of the inmates employed in mak- 
ing— 
Q. 1 was going to ask you if a considerable portion, outside 
of the gardener and your son Charles, — whether the remaining 
portion of the work has been done by the inmates? A. En- 
tirely. 
Q. Entirely by the inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is, the improvement from its original condition in 
1858, and its preservation through the summer months, and the 
cultivation of the plants has all been done by inmates? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. You don’t mean those fellows that lie under 
the wall? 
Mr. Brown. Oh, when they are woke up they probably 
went to work. 
The Witness. Up there in front of the insane building 
there is now a portion,—there was then quite a large portion,— 
cultivated by the insane women in flowers. 
Q. Insane women in flowers; and what portion of it? A. 
Oh, not much, but quite a prett}’ little patch. 
Q. A little patch of flowers? A. Yes. 
Q. And 3'ou furnish them with bulbs or whatever they want? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. From time to time to keep them amused in that way? 
A. Yes, sir ; and they enjoy it. 
Q. I have no doubt of it. I want to ask you one general 
question, now, before we go any further, and that is this: I 
notice in }rour reports }Tou speak of the amount of money ex- 
pended at the institution. Now, I want to know whether that 
amount of money includes, for instance, repairs ; so that in get- 
ting at the cost per inmate, for instance, suppose you should 
divide the entire appropriation bill b}T the number of inmates, 
would that be the way you would get at the average cost per 
annum of each inmate ? A. Well, sir — 
Q. Or would you, and do you, as a matter of fact, when you 
get at that, go to work and take out all the money that has 
been expended for repairs and new structures and then take the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2421 
balance and divide it by the average number of inmates? A. 
No, sir ; I take every dollar drawn from the treasury. 
Q. Every dollar drawn from the treasury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that, in 1862, if $3,000 had been expended in repairs, 
painting buildings, building new structures, barn cellars or any- 
thing of that kind, in making up your estimate of the average 
cost per inmate that expenditure for a barn cellar or painting, 
would be included, would it? A. We have usually done those 
things, such as painting or building, anything of that sort, by a 
special appropriation. 
Q. Special appropriation? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. And a special appropriation is not put into 
the account. 
Q. I notice, Mr. Marsh, that during the last few series of 
years there has been submitted in a document, usually a House 
document, an estimate, but in the appropriation bill there is no 
specific sum mentioned for any particular thing, except an ag- 
gregate sum for Tewksbury, for instance. A. It is, I believe, 
in two divisions ; one for what they call running expenses, and 
the other for salaries. They divide it, I believe ; they are al- 
lowed to spend so much for salaries, and so much for the run- 
ning expenses. 
Gov. Butler. Running expenses ; and, then, whenever there 
is any specific repairs, there is another item still, for whatever 
it is. 
Q. For instance, if there was to be a new building erected — 
Gov. Butler. Or painted. 
Q. Or if they were all to be painted, there would be a 
special appropriation? A. Yes; I believe there is a special 
appropriation for painting and repairs; then there is so much 
for salaries, and so much for running expenses. Now, all the 
painting or everything that was contemplated, so far as they 
will be able to do it, — I believe it is indicated what shall be 
done with that special appropriation, — these things will be 
charged to that appropriation and that account made up, then 
the other to the other and divided among the average number of 
the inmates. 
Mr. Brown. I wanted to get at that fact, so it should appear 
on the record. 
Gov. Butler. You will see it in every report, in every 
account. Take that one of 1862, which is right there. 
The Witness. Yes, sir ; for every year you will find it, 2422 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Botler. You will find it deducted. 
The Witness. You will find it in every report for every 
year. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly, sir. 
The Witness. They never got that new store-house, Gov- 
ernor ; you had better give them one this year. 
Gov. Butler. They want it, of course. In the report for 
1862, on the eleventh page, you will find, after making the 
proper deduction, “ We have the exact cost of maintaining, re- 
newing and enlarging, as above, $49,197.77 ; and, assessing 
this sum upon the average number of inmates, we find the aver- 
age weekly cost for each to have been $1.03 8-13.” Then, de- 
ducting further, on the next page, we have $5,020.92, deducting 
which gives as the amount actually expended for the care and 
support of inmates for the year, $44,176.85 ; “ as the average 
weekly number of inmates is 913, the cost for the }'ear for each 
will be $48.39, and the average cost per week will be $0.93 
11-14.” 
The Witness. That is the year we had the clothes. 
Gov. Butler. We will see about the clothes. You bought 
more dry goods that year than you did any other. 
The Witness. That year? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; by two thousand dollars’ worth. 
Q. Now, take ’66 and tell me what took place in conse- 
quence of which you used this language : — 
“ The classification of public dependants long since proposed by 
the board of stale charities, has at length commenced. The charac- 
ter of our population has of course been gradually changing. For 
healthy children transferred to the primary school, we have received 
cripples, epileptics, and idiots. The laborers of the establishment, 
who were mainly to be found in the vicious classes, have been in 
process of removal to the state workhouse, there to encounter that 
legal restraint and compulsory labor which hitherto have formed no 
part of our system of charities.” 
Now, what was the occasion of your using that language? A. 
Speaking of taking away the children ? 
Q. Yes, and supplying their places with cripples, epileptics 
and idiots? A. I suppose then the new insane department, 
that first half of which I told you about, had probably been con- 
structed. 
Q. Then the building which you had five years before asked HOUSE —No. 300. 
1883.] 
2423 
foi* you got in 1866, did you? A. I guess that must have 
been it. 
Q. And that was the occasion for the change? A. 
took away — 
Q. Now, I want to ask you if you recollect going to the legis- 
lature every year from 1861 to 1866 and asking for that new 
building? A. Well, sir, I might have got tired sometimes and 
stopped out; I cannot say, certain ; I used to follow it pretty 
close. 
Q. You dropped out for a year, but, generally, you fol- 
lowed it pretty close? A. I know I asked fourteen or fifteen 
years for a barn and then I didn’t get it; I only got an addi- 
tion. 
Q. Fourteen or fifteen years for a barn; when did that 
period commence? A. I am not sure you won’t find it in 
there. 
Q. I know; but see if you can’t recollect? A. Well, we 
got the addition to our barn two years ago, and fifteen years,— 
about seventeen years, I should think. 
Q. You have got it now? A. We have got an addition to 
an old barn. 
Q. An addition to an old one? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did you think you wanted ; what did you think 
you needed? A. I should have had a larger barn and had it 
fui’ther away from the dwelling-houses, but we had to put up 
with an addition. 
Q. Who objected, if you recollect, to that expenditure? A. 
I never inquired, sir ; I don’t know. 
Q. I will ask }Tou this question : do you recollect whether 
the board of state charities objected to that expendi- 
ture? A. I can’t say they did, sir; but, then, they didn’t 
always fall in with my ideas. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) They didn’t have much to do with 
it, the board of state charities, the trustees? A. Yes; the 
board of charities. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I mean either the old board or the 
new board. A. It was the board of charities, I believe, origi- 
nally ; now it is health, lunacy and charity. 
Q. When did you get that addition? A. I should think 
two }Tears ago. 
Q. That is in 1881 ? A. 1880 or 1881. 
Q. So that the new board did have two chances at it. Now, 2424 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
I notice }’ou use this language in the next paragraph, on the 
eleventh page of the report of ’70 :— 
“ This welcome change — the necessity for which we have so often 
indicated, — in a pecuniary sense, must, of course, affect us unfavor- 
ably.” 
What did you mean by that? A. Let me look at that, please. 
[Book handed witness.] 
Mr. Brown. You refer to the removal of healthy children 
and working people to Monson and Bridgewater, and supply- 
ing their place with epileptics — 
Gov. Butler. Let him find out what he means b}T it; he 
knows better than you do. 
A. It says : “ Our producers are withdrawn. Helpless and 
costly consumers take their place. More attendants are re- 
quired, more nutritious food and greater medical ability. As 
an inevitable result our institution must retrograde from any 
advancement towards self-support.” 
Q. Yes ; and that was consequent upon the change which 
you described in the previous paragraph. A. They took away 
from us well and healthy children and sent that class of people. 
Q. Mow, I want to know, .Captain, if since 1862 that 
process has been constantly going on? A. When that first 
change was made, we were promised to have men and women 
that could work. They were going to try the experiment to see 
whether or not they could work. Land was bought, added to 
the farm, for the purpose of trying the experiment, and they 
sent us men that had physical power enough to work and most 
of them could work. We had a few like Jerome Napoleon 
Bonaparte from Lowell, that you knew, sir [turning to the 
governor], T suppose he hadn’t mind enough, he could not 
work, but he was harmless ; and they sent us women that could 
work. Well, you will find somewheres in one of my reports 
that I began to complain that instead of sending, — by the 
way, the class of people, I was told, could live just as our ordi- 
nary inmates lived ; tlie}T would not want any additional attend- 
dants, would not want any additional food ; they were going to 
be strong, rather what would be called self-supporting. That 
is the way it was talked to me, and that is the way it was 
begun. But, when the superintendents of the insane asylums 
found they could be made to labor usefully, they were perfectly 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2425 
willing to keep that class at home’and to get $3.25 or $3.50Aa 
week for them, and they sent me quite a different class; and 
they have been growing from bad to worse ever since. And 
3Ton will find I make mention of that change from the promised 
kind of help to that which I was receiving. 
Gov. Butler. The superintendents should be turned out. 
Q. Now, I notice you say, on page 12 of your report for that 
year, ’6G, “ We have become an infirmary for those stricken 
of God and afflicted.” A. Well, I guess I meant what I 
said. 
Q. And what you said was correct, was it? A. I think so. 
Q. Then you use this language : — 
“ During the year we have received from the lunatic hospitals large 
numbers of the class called harmless insane, preparatory to the 
opening of our new building for their accommodation. Here is 
another source of expense to us, while the State saves a much larger 
sum by the transfer. From this class we shall no doubt derive, in 
the end, many useful laborers, but the period of transition must be 
more or less expensive.” 
A. Yes, sir ; because we were promised that class, you know. 
Q. I notice that you use this language on the thirteenth page 
of the same report: — 
“ During the year the asylum for the insane has been completed 
and furnished at a total cost of $33,910.98. Of this sum the state 
treasury furnished $33,500 and the almshouse the balance.” 
Where did the balance come from? How did the almshouse 
come to have the balance? A. I suppose what I mean by 
that is digging the cellars, and the stones, etc. It could not be 
money paid out, because we didn’t have any. 
Q. The reduction in the cost of building consequent upon 
the labor of those connected with the institution saved that 
amount of money ? A. That is what I suppose, sir. 
Q. The difference between those two sums? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then you describe the building and sa}T it will accom- 
modate 120 inmates; do you recollect how long before that 
building was filled after it was completed ? I notice you sa}' 
here on the thirteenth page : — 
“ On the tenth of July, 1866, report was made to the governor and 
council by the commissioners, that the asylum was ready for occu- 
pancy.” 2426 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
How long after that was it before it was filled ? A. I could 
not tell you exactly; but I think they commenced removing 
and filled it as rapidly as the}’ could. 
Q. That was the first half of the present insane building? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did you undertake to get the other half con- 
structed ? A. Well, sir, I didn’t have any trouble in getting 
that. This was built, as the board then said, as an experiment. 
It was the board’s suggestion that that be built. I had been 
asking for something previously, never expecting getting so 
much as that, you know, but a small thing I asked for. But 
that was built as an experiment, and the experiment proved so 
satisfactory to the board that they asked for the other half. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That is, the first half you first 
asked for, I understand, Mr. Marsh, was a brick building, 
which you estimated would cost about $4,000? A. Yes, sir; 
I thought that was about it. 
Q. Yes ; about $4,000 ; something like that; and when the 
legislature came to give you the building, under such tutelage 
as they were, they gave you half of a builidng which cost 
$33,000. A. In the first year there was a little hitch about it. 
The board asked for such a building as that, or somewhat 
similar, and submitted their plans, and the legislature granted 
about $10,000 for that, and about $20,000 for putting up a build- 
ing for the criminal insane. The board were dissatisfied with 
the act of the legislature placing the criminal insane with the 
pauper poor,— with the poor people,— and they said there was 
not enough ; the $10,000 wasn’t enough to build this first build- 
ing, and so they didn’t do anything about it. Went to the 
legislature the next year, and got the criminal part omitted and 
this permitted, and this was built. 
Q. And then you got the first half of the building built at 
$33,000? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And, afterwards, got another half, I suppose, for about 
as much? A. I think the whole cost «ixty-five or six thousand 
dollars. 
Gov. Butler. That is my remembrance of it. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, can you tell me when that 
chapel was built? A. I don’t know what governorship that 
was built under. That is a wooden building, you know. 
Q. Yes. It was built late in the fall of the year. I remem- 
ber that Mr. Russell,—Mr. .lames Sturgis, and a gentleman from 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2427 
Newburyport who was on the governor’s council, came out there, 
-—they were councillors, I don’t remember the governor, — but 
there was a special appropriation ; we had about $2,000 appro- 
priated for that building, and for the whole thing, fixing it up. 
And we got up the building, but could not heat it; could not 
buy the stoves. These two gentlemen, — Mr. Sturgis and the 
man from Newburyport, who was in the governor’s council,— 
came out to see it, and they would not let us buy the stoves, to 
run in debt for them. 
Q. Give me, as near as you can, the year that was built? 
A. ’83,—well, I should think, not very far from 1878. 
Q. What had you used for a chapel prior to the time that 
building was built? A. Well, sir, we had had various places. 
We had had that school-room I spoke of, after the scholars were 
gone. We had the room above it once, and we had the dormi- 
tory of the insane once. The idea of putting up that at the 
time was the anticipated rush of people. It was thought that it 
would be a saving to build it, inasmuch as, I think the board 
had something to say about it, I am not sure, fearing that 
the institutions were getting to be so full they would have to pay 
the expense of keeping them in the towns, and that was put up 
as a sort of makeshift to make more sleeping-room as well as 
chapel-room. 
Q. Now, have you always had religious services there at the 
institution? A. Ever since I have been there. 
Q. Ever since you have been there? A. Yes, sir ; unless 
there has been some Sabbath when the chaplain could not get 
there. 
Q. Has there ever been any limitation as to what denomination 
should have services there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What limitation has there been? A. When I first went 
there there was employed a man for chaplain who was not a 
resident; he used to come on the Sabbath from Lowell. He 
was a Baptist man. He had been employed there a year. I 
believe that was the beginning ; but perhaps not; I don’t know ; 
and Father Coggin of Tewksbury served awhile ; then the Rev. 
Mr. JBurtt of Lowell; then we had a man who was a graduate of 
Waterville College who took charge of the school and performed 
the service of chaplain. 
Q. Munser? A. No, sir; he was a Lowell man. This 
man’s name was Foster. 
Gov, Butler. Munser was on the board of trustees. 2428 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. He was a graduate of Waterville College and 
he stayed there till the children were transferred to Monson ; he 
went to Monson afterwards in the same capacity. By reason of 
ill-health of himself and his wife he left, and a gentleman from 
Billerica b}' the name of Patten came there. Then the system 
was broken up, because the children were taken away and there 
was no school, and since then we have had different clergymen 
from the town and from the vicinity. 
Q. What regulation, if any, have you had with regard to the 
clergymen who attend service there ? We have had for the last 
two years, we have had the two clergymen of the town, whoever 
they might happen to be, and, sometimes, we have had them 
from Lowell, and, sometimes, from Billerica. We now have, 
and have had for quite a while, a Baptist clergyman, an Episcopal 
clergyman and a Catholic clergyman. 
Q. Father Gigault? A. Father Gigault. 
Q. He has been there about seven years, J think? A. I 
should think fully that. 
Q. What Catholic clergyman was there before Father 
Gigault? A. We have had quite a number. 1 think his im- 
mediate predecessor was Father Buckle. And I think Father 
Buckle held the first Catholic service that was held in the insti- 
tution. 
Q. When was that? A. That must be ten or a dozen 
years ago. 
Q. There has been no limitation except those imposed as a 
matter of convenience for a senes of years, has there? A. 
No, sir. 
Gov. Butleu. About fourteen years ago they began to go, 
whoever would come. 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want you, Captain, to tell me whether there lias 
ever been anybody buried from that institution, or any person 
died in that institution, old or young, within your knowledge, 
who has not had funeral services? A. There has been a great 
many, sir. 
Q. AVell, under what circumstances? A. Well, we didn’t 
use to have any funeral services. 
Q. Didn’t use to have any? A. No, sir. 
Q. Why not? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. How matyy years has it been since they began to have 
funeral services? A. Well, I should think somewhere about — 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2429 
I cannot say absolutely certain, but I should think about ten 
years. 
Q. About ten years ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, within ten years has there been an}r death at 
the institution where there has not been funeral service? A. 
There may have been. We have not always been able to get 
clergymen. 
Q. Not always able to get clergymen? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, for instance, Father Gigault — A. Father 
Gigault has always come whenever any of the Catholic faith 
have been buried. 
Q. Well, has there been any person of the Catholic faiths 
within your knowledge, who has died at the institution, who has 
not had funeral service? A. Those that friends have taken 
away. Our rule is to take them, as soon as they are laid out 
and put into a coffin, to take them to the chapel. That used to 
be the rule. Now, I believe they do it a little different, and 
send for Father Gigault when there is anybody. If we know 
they are going to take them away we are not particular, because 
they can take care of that. We have had two this week. That 
Honora O’Connor, the woman that there has been so much talk 
about, who had all the flowers and the good things, she is 
dead. 
Q. Is Honora dead? A. Honora died. They took her 
away to Lowell to bury her, and the service was performed as 
Father Gigault said it would be. Then we had a man who has 
been a sort of a sexton at the chapel, and done something at 
the funerals, that died, and his friends came and took him away 
before the priest came. In such cases as those, of course, it has 
not been done there. 
Q. But with the exception of those cases? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. There has always been funeral services? A. As far as 
I know. 
Q. That has been your intention? A. Yes, sir. Well, 
Father Gigault has always come ; we always telegraph him or 
telephone him, and he has always been. 
Q. Have you ever attended any of those funeral services ? 
A. Occasionally I have ; not very often. 
Q. How frequently ? A. Not very often ; I could not. I 
have attended with Father Gigault, and I have attended with 
others. I have attended with Dr. Edson, occasionally, from 
Lowell, an Episcopalian. I don’t pretend to go. 2430 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now I notice that on page 12 of the report for 1867 you 
used this language : — 
“ The change in our population alluded to, is due to the method of 
classification adopted by the board of state charities, and put in force 
somewhat over one year ago. Under this, *261 persons of vicious or 
doubtful character have been removed to the State Workhouse at 
Bridgewater, under sentences ranging from six months to three 
years; 179 children, including a few adults,— mostly the mothers of 
the children, — have been transferred to the State Primary School at 
Monson, that the latter might receive a course of instruction before 
being placed in suitable homes; and three unruly insane have been 
transferred to Taunton or Worcester. In return we have received 
from Bridgewater and Monson 223 inmates, nearly every one of 
whom were defective in mind or body; in fact, the pitiable survivors 
of all the imbecility and misery which had for many years accumu- 
lated in those institutions; and from the three State lunatic hospitals 
71 patients pronounced fitting subjects for our asylum, as being 
harmless and incurable.” 
The Witness. Rather complimentary, was it not? 
Q. Do you recollect that special passage of the report when 
that change was made? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was that a fair statement of what was then going on in 
the change of character in the population of your institution? 
A. I never should have made it if I hadn’t believed it to have 
been so. 
Q. Now I notice that you use this language on the same 
page:— 
“ It will be seen at once that our permanent number must be con" 
siderably larger, while in any business ‘panic or sudden emergency, 
we might be put to great inconvenience by the incoming crowd. To 
obviate this possible risk, to effect the classification as promptly as 
possible, and also to cause the immediate removal ol those belonging 
elsewhere than in Massachusetts, the board of charities has stationed 
at Tewksbury one of its examining officers, who investigates and 
reports thereon to his superiors each case as it arrives.” 
Who was the man who did that work? A. I think—let me 
see — at that time I think it must have been Col. Tripp. 
Q. Col. Tripp? A. I think so. 
Q. The same man who has been doing it the last year? A. 
No, sir; Mr. Farley has been doing it for a year. Col. Tripp 
has done some of it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2431 
Q. Col. Tripp has been continually there, more or less? A. 
No, sir. Col. Tripp’s office is in this building. Since the 28tli 
of April he has been a sort of policeman, or something ; I don’t 
know hardly what. 
Gov. Butler. The board of health, lunacy and charity call 
him their agent in charge of the institution. 
The Witness. Well, something, whatever it is. 
Q. Captain, from what cause did you attribute the increased 
average cost per inmate from 1862 to 1867? A. Better living. 
Gov. Butler. You mean to what. 
Mr. Brown. To what? 
The Witness. Better living ; that is one cause. 
Q. Any other cause? A. Yes, sir; higher prices. 
Q. I notice on page 13 of this report you say : — 
“ One year’s support of those transferred from the lunatic hospitals, 
would cost the State at those institutions $182.50 each, while here it 
does not exceed $91 for each.” 
And in 1858 you speak of it as being $52 each? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What was the occasion of the increase from $52 to $91, 
from 1858 to 1867. Give us all the causes that you can think 
of? A. I don’t know as I can do that, sir. 
Q. You lived better? A. Yes, sir; I said that; didn’t 
3tou understand me ? 
Q. I understood that there was another cause ? A. Well, 
I think the rise in prices ; everybody knows there was a rise in 
prices. 
Q. A rise in prices; anything else? A. We had to have 
more officers employed. 
Q. More officers emphryed? In 1862 you had twenty-two, 
and in 1882 you had fifty-three? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you recollect what the number was in 1867? A. I 
do not. 
Q. But jTou do recollect that there has been a steady 
increase? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. You can tell by the number; the number is 
right there. 
The Witness. You can tell by the number on the first page 
but one. 
Gov. Butler. Will you give us the number, Mr. Brown? 
It is on the first page, or the first page but one. 2432 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t seem to see it. 
Gov. Butler. Of the superintendent’s report. 
[The witness pointed out the page of the report containing 
the names of the employees.] 
Mr. Brown. Twenty-eight. I see that in 18G7 there were 
twenty-eight employees outside of the inspectors. 
Gov. Butler. Outside of the three inspectors? 
Mr. Brown. Four. 
Gov. Butler. One of them was 011I3’ an inspector for six- 
teen dollars worth. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Did this have anything to do with 
it — the change in the character of the inmates, having a less 
number of people who were able to render any service? A. 
Oh, sir, of course ; we had largely to do without them. 
Q. Was there any other cause which 3’ou have not named 
which you think contributed to the increased cost per inmate 
from $52 in 1858 to $91 in 1867? A. 1 cannot think of any- 
thing only the rise in prices and better quality of goods. 
Q. No tea nor coffee was used among the inmates in 1858, 
was there ? A. I guess there must have been tea ; there was 
not an3r coffee. I think we have always used tea. 
Q. A very small quantity, was it not? A. Well, only fair 
black tea. 
Q. Do 3rou know on whose recommendation these different 
articles of diet were added to the list from 3’ear to 3’ear as time 
went on? A. Well, m3’ impression is that I have generally 
suggested them, until, more recently, some one higher in 
authorit3T took hold of the matter. 
Gov. Butler. How recently do 3tou mean? Leave out 
everything since the investigation commenced. 
Q. You mean up to the time when the investigation com- 
menced? A. Yes, sir. I think that generally the suggestion 
was made byT myself to the board, to my own board of trustees 
or inspectors, whatever the3’ might be. We have found b3' 
experience that a little better grade of goods was more profita- 
ble than the cheaper grades, particularly in the matter of flour 
for bread. We had always used grain — used to buy grain 1)3’ 
the bushel, and burn it there, and use it to make coffee of; 
such as rye and barley, or wheat. 
Gov. Butler. Have 3’ou an3T objection, Mr. Brown, to Mr. 
Marsh’s sa3’ing when this buying of grain, rye and barley, and 
using it for coffee — when that change was made ? 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300 
2433 
Mr. Brown. Ob, no; go on, Captain, and tell us when it 
was. 
The Witness. I don’t know as I could tell you, but I could 
tell by reference to our bills for groceries. I don’t cany these 
things in my mind, and don’t pretend to. 
Q. Do you mean that prior to the time when you began to 
buy coffee you used grain ; had it roasted and ground as a 
substitute for coffee? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All the time? A. All the time. 
Mr. Brown. Then the reports will show the rest. 
The Witness. The}’ always used to use it in the other insti- 
tutions. 
Gov. Butler. Well, never mind about the other institutions ; 
we are not into them now. 
Q. I notice that in 1868 there was a difference of opinion 
among the authorities as to whether the inmates should eat 
pork? A. Who were the authorities, sir? 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t hear. 
The Witness. I asked who the authorities referred to were. 
Gov. Butler. I should have asked it if you hadn’t. 
Q. What did this language mean : — 
“ In closing my report I desire to refer to a remarkable document 
(House No. 402, of the last session of the legislature, pages 8 and 9), 
where an imagined description is given of the inspectors’ visit to the 
almshouse.” 
What does that mean? A. That was a report made to the 
legislature by Mr. Adams. 
Q. What Adams? A. I am not sure whether it was 
Charles or John. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) John Quincy or Charles Francis? 
A. Yes, sir ; I mean the young men, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Was that the man who said that 
pork was not fit for a Christian to eat? A. I should think 
that must have been Dr. Howe ; it sounds to me very much 
like him. Don’t I say something about inviting him to come 
and see them eat pork and cabbage? 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
“ I shall, however, hope to win his favor by removing it ”— that 
is, the piggery—“ farther away from the main buildings, and then 
inviting my good friend, some day, to witness the infidels as they par- 
take of one of their favorite dishes, boiled pork and cabbage 2434 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. Thai is Dr. Howe who is referred to there. 
The Chairman. What }7ear is that, Mr. Brown? 
Mr. Brown. 1868. 
Gov. Butler. I find, in 1867, 390 pounds of coffee. 
The Witness. Yes, sir. When we first began to use coffee 
we began by using prepared coffee. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) By prepared coffee 37ou mean the 
kind put up as coffee essence. A. No, sir; I mean probably 
a preparation of coffee with some grain. 
Gov. Butler. Some of that that the state assayer assayed 
and didn’t find any7 coffee in. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) In your report for 1869, on page 
10, I notice yTou use this language : — 
« 
“ We have had preaching nearly every Sabbath, and the different 
clergymen of the vicinity, from most of the denominations, have 
been invited. Their labors have been very satisfactory and interest- 
ing, and I hope not without some profit. The Catholic clergy have 
also made their weekly7 visits, and so far as I can learn, have been 
kindly received. Their ministrations appear to have given much 
satisfaction.” 
Is that the period which you refer to, when you commenced to 
have regular services? A. I should think y7ou would find in 
the next report where we began to hold our regular service. 
Gov. BuTler. It will tell you in a moment, if yrou will just 
look at the expenditure under the head of chaplain. That will 
tell you. That is, not when the chaplain was hired by the year, 
but when the expenditure would come up to about $250. 
The Witness. About five dollars a Sabbath. 
Gov. Butler. That was in 1867 ; so it shows they had five 
dollars a Sabbath. They didn’t have it quite every Sabbath, 
because, for some reason, he didn’t get there, I suppose. 
Q. (By7 Mr. Brown.) I vrant to know, captain, what was 
the occasion of y7our using this language, on page 9 of the report 
for 1870 : — 
“ I wish to repeat once more the ‘ oft told story ’ of our wants, and 
I would that I could intensify my words proportionately to the ne- 
cessities of the case, and yet I suppose my duty will be done when I 
have stated them. We need new hospital accommodations. I be- 
lieve that upon this subject all who have anything to do with the 
care or oversight of the institution are agreed. Another want is 
more barn room. The class of inmates which we now have require 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2435 
more milk than we have heretofore used; we must keep more cows, 
and as we shall have an increase in our crops from our newly pur- 
chased land, it is important that we have room for storing them.” 
And so on. What was the occasion of that language? What 
specific thing did you refer to ? There is something that you 
still was in need of? A. A new brick hospital, I suppose. 
Q. That is, the other half? A. No, sir; I mean the hos- 
pital. 
Gov. Butler. That is the long building. 
Q. Now, prior to that, what had y7ou for-a hospital? A. 
Well, sir, when I first went there, there were two long rooms 
on the second floor on either side, in the wings of the building, 
running out from the main building. On one side were the 
women, on the other side were the men. The sick and all, 
diseased and all the deaths were occurring right there among the 
well persons. Then they got moved out into these two old build- 
ings which now make a part of the women’s building, and 
there they7 were crowded and it was unsuitable. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That state of things went on from 
1858 to 1868? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then you got a new hospital building? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, I want to know what was the 
occasion for your using this language on page 13 of your report 
of 1871? 
Gov. Butler. Do you skip ? 
Mr. Brown. No ; the last was 1870. — Under the title, 
“The Wants of the Institution.” [Reading.] 
“As the time is approaching when you must submit to the legisla- 
ture an estimate of our expenses for the ensuing year, I deem i 
proper to call your attention to certain alterations and improvements, 
the cost of which may perhaps be properly defrayed from the regu- 
lar appropriation.” 
“ It seems essential to health and cleanliness that a large portion 
of the plastering in the lodging-rooms of the inmates should be re- 
moved and renewed ; that provision should be made for new flooring 
in sundry parts of the main building; that doors and their ■ appurte- 
nances should be repaired while yet it can be done at small cost; 
that the attic floor should be removed, that the dormitories beneath, 
now only seven feet in the clear, may be open to the roof, thus secur- 
ing to each occupant a sufficient number of cubic feet of air and am- 
ple ventilation; and, especially, that water-closets should be provided 2436 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
on each floor, in either wing of the building, for the comfort of the 
aged and infirm, who will hereafter occupy the premises, and also in 
the building for the insane. Public opinion seems to demand this 
change, which is now rendered practicable by the additional room 
and better classification assured by the new hospital.” 
“ There are other needs resulting from our material prosperity, 
which, when supplied, will enhance it the more. Increasing crops 
demand more barn room for their preservation,” — 
The Witness. There is the barn again. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
— “ and a new piggery is imperatively demanded, that we may be 
able to utilize the refuse occasioned by the coming addition of one 
hundred and fifty insane persons to our number” 
Q. What was the occasion of all that? 
Gov. Butler. Why, he has told you, hasn’t he? Barn and 
piggery. 
Mr. Brown. I know, as far as the barn and piggery are 
concerned. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
The Witness. I can only speak in reference to the house 
generally. The floors, when they were first built, were very 
poorh’ laid and had got worn out, and there needed to be new floor- 
ing ; and that they had been used so long and so much for hos- 
pital room for the sick, the plastering was so poor I thought it 
would be well to plaster them. I got the new floors, but didn’t get 
the new plastering. The upper rooms alluded to—the upper floor 
was taken out, and you will see it now as you go around, a 
place cut through the flooring and finished out, which carries 
the ventilating space clear up to the ridge-pole. 
Q. Now, I notice in the report of 1872 you use this language, 
on page 8 : — 
“ During the past year the new hospital for the siekhas been com- 
pleted and was occupied March 1st.” 
That refers to the new hospital near the gate, don’t it? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Captain, what was the occasion for the use of this 
language on page 10 of the report of 1873 : — 
“ I wish to call your attention to a matter which I deem of some 
importance, and which I have long felt to be an evil. Whenever, as 
it frequently occurs, parents of intemperate habits are found upon 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2437 
the streets or elsewhere intoxicated, they are taken before a police 
court or magistrate and sentenced for a longer or a shorter term, and 
as a consequence the unoffending children are consigned to the alms- 
house, and it sometimes happens that families thus broken up are 
never united again. It is not clearly seen how those and other kin- 
dred philanthropic proceedings subserve tire cause of temperance or 
of good morals. In this connection I would say that, during the 
past year it has often happened that persons have been sent here in 
irons who have been confined in station-houses and lock-ups when 
intoxicated, and who, on their arrival here, passed through the vari- 
ous stages of delirium tremens. If this state of things is to continue 
I think a suitable place should be provided where they may be prop- 
erly restrained until they have recovered ” 
Did you have any place where you could put persons with 
delirium tremens, up to that time? A. No, sir. 
Q. Why not? A. We didn’t have it; I don’t know why 
not. 
Q. Had you been having cases of that kind all the time? 
A. Yes, sir; we always have had them ; I don’t know why it 
is. If a person is arrested, or put into a city lock-up, and they 
come out with the delirium. tremens, they won’t take them to 
court. If they get sober and get quiet, they will sentence him 
to Deer Island ; if he has the delirium tremens, they send him to 
us. I have sent away two or three cases this summer; they 
were perfectly insane, — perfectly wild, — and I would not take 
them. 
Gov. Butler. Leav.e out this summer. 
The Witness. What, sir? 
Gov. Butler. Leave out this summer. 
The Witness. I will, sir. You will excuse me; I-won’t do 
it again. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You haven’t noticed any increase 
this summer? 
Gov. Butler. Or decrease, I suppose. But, you see, we 
Can tell instantly, exactly how many there were. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, Mr. Marsh, I want to call 
your attention to this language in your report of 1874. Speak- 
ing of the period of time during which the institution has been 
in existence, you say : — 
“ During this period of twenty-one years, through the action of the 
legislature, the purposes of this institution have been materially 
changed, and a corresponding difference in the character of its in- 
mates has necessarily resulted.” 2438 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Those are the changes and the results which you have previously 
described? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Before you pass from the report for 1873, I 
want to say that the number of cases of delirium tremens, the 
total number that year, was five, all of whom were men. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Then you go on: — 
“The crowds oi robust men and women, who furnished an excess 
of labor, especially in the season when it was not required, have en- 
tirely disappeared.” 
Do 3rou recollect that change from 1862 to 1874? A. I don’t 
remember particularly about it. 
Q. You know that was a fact? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Then, if they had gone, they didn’t eat. 
Q. Now, do you recollect this, on page 10 of the same re- 
port : — 
“ The hundreds of healthy children, who formed nearly half of our 
number, have been provided for elsewhere.” 
“ The productive power has been almost withdrawn from us, while 
a most expensive class of consumers has been added.” 
Do you recollect that change in the condition of things? A. 
I presume that was when the school was broken up, and the 
children were taken from us. 
Q “In fact, this institution can hardly be longer called a 
poorhouse, in the ordinary sense of that term, but rather a 
, « i 
combination of an asylum for the demented, an infirmary for the 
sick, and a nursery for doomed and dying foundlings.” What 
was the occasion of your using that language? A. Well, 
which part of it; the first or the last part? 
Gov. Butler. Is that in the report for 1874? 
Mr. Brown. The report of 1874, page 10. 
The Witness. I suppose it refers to these ladies from Char- 
don Street Home, —the sending of these infants, these found- 
lings, there to die. 
Gov. Butler. They had been sent there for a good many 
years. Give me the report for 1873. I have it. Let us see 
how many of these children were sent. [Referring to the re- 
port.] Three died of cholera infantum, not a crowd. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, you say further, — 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2439 
“ Hence any comparison of its present with its earliest past is not 
only incongruous, but eminently unjust. The elements are quite 
dissimilar, — as to production and expenditure, to hygiene and mor- 
tality, and to the discipline and morals of its inmates. Its census 
shows that forty per cent, are patients deemed by experts to be 
hopelessly insane; that fifteen per cent., besides the foregoing, ai'e 
hospital patients; and that twelve per cent, more are foundlings, or 
children under four, making in these classes of defectives or depend- 
ants sixty-seven per cent, of the entire population, while nearly all 
the remaining thirty-three per cent, are incapacitated by age, or some 
infirmity of mind or body.” 
Q. Where did }tou get that information ? A. I must have 
got it there. 
‘ Q. Was it true? A. I should not have written it if it 
hadn’t been. 
Q. And had there been that change from 1858, through the 
sixties and on to 1874 in the character of the inmates of this 
institution? A. There had been. 
Gov. Butler. And that limited its productiveness. 
Mr. Brown. And increased its expense. 
“ From these feeble and nerveless frames, what remunerative 
capacity can be expected ? From these decaying bodies and extin- 
guished minds, who can hope for agreeable emanations, or look for 
incitements to cleanliness ? The clean cannot be brought out from the 
unclean; wherever these parties go, an atmosphere of impurity sur- 
rounds them. In the best appointed hospital, in the almshouse, in 
the private dwelling, in the cars and even in the street, they have 
ever present with them the recognizable and nauseous evidence of 
their own decay. Daily and hourly toil on the part of the attendants 
will not entirely remove it, for its generation is more unremitting 
than any human care can possibly be. We can abate, but we cannot 
eradicate it.” 
Q. Was that a correct statement of the difficulties attending 
the care of these people at that time? A. I believed it, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) And continued to be, I suppose? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now this language, Captain.— 
“ For these hundreds of worn-out beings who come here to die, 
emaciated, paralytic, consumptive, syphilitic, laden with all the ills 
that flesh is heir to, who can expect exemption from the decree of 
nature, or even to protract for any considerable time the hour that 
must inevitably come to all ? ” 2440 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
And so on. Now, on the 11th page, I want to ask you what 
you meant by this language. After speaking of the sanitar}' 
condition and the mortality, you say that any lack of success is 
not due to indifference or apathy,—or perhaps I had better 
read the whole paragraph. [Reading.] 
“ T have made these remarks, gentlemen, because severe strictures 
have been uttered upon the sanitary condition of this institution and 
its rate of mortality, which 1 feel to be eminently unjust, under the 
circumstances in which we are placed. You have anxiously labored 
to do all in your power, with the limited means placed at your dis- 
posal, to remedy the inevitable and almost incurable evils of which 
I have spoken ; I have earnestly seconded your efforts. Any lack of 
success is not due to indifference or apathy, but simply to circumstan- 
ces beyond our control. 4 
“ We cannot move without legislation. The State treasury is not 
at our command. The policy defined for us by our superiors, excel- 
lent of its kind, and admirably adapted to the earlier conditions of 
this institution and its population of that date, has been entirely 
unsuited to the changed order of things. 
“ The diet provided for the robust pauper and sturdy tramp is not 
fit for our great assembly of invalids and insane. The limited 
means allowed us to procure nurses and medical attendance, have 
been entirely insufficient for the results expected from us. We have 
been, and are to-day, destitute of the proper facilities for preparing 
the food, deemed by competent judges with whom we have advised, 
necessai’y for the best interests of our invalids.” 
What did you mean by that? A. I think I must have felt 
pretty keenly on that. 
Q. Well, do you mean to say that at that time you meant to 
call the attention of the public to the fact that the diet of the 
institution was not what it should be, considering that the people 
who were there were invalids, many of them? 
Gov. Butler. He didn’t say that. It saj’s the means for 
preparing the diet. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; but he speaks of the diet 
previously. 
Gov. Butler. All right. It is there. What he writ is 
there. 
Mr. Brown. He says the diet provided is not fit for the 
great assembly of invalids and insane. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; and then he goes on to say — 
Mr. Brown. Then he says they have not the proper facilities 
for preparing the diet. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2441 
Q. Now, I want you to tell me what there was in that diet 
at that time to which you wanted to call public attention, A. 
Well, I don’t know that I had much thought about the public. 
I called the attention of the trustees to it, and I thought if 
through the trustees and the Executive it came to the legisla- 
ture, our wants might possibly be attended to. 
Q. To what lack of facilities for preparing the food did you 
refer? A. Well, sir, we had to cook in-the kettles and things 
that were originally put into the building. There used to be a 
fire made underneath them, and the kettles were set in brick. 
We used to make our coffee in an open kettle, and perhaps the 
same kettle that we boiled our pork and cabbage in — have it 
washed out and cleansed as well as we could do it. 
Q. And I notice that on the twelfth page you say this: — 
“ The first necessity is a new hospital kitchen, with proper appara- 
tus for preparing at any notice, or in any emergency, whatever may 
be ordered for their patients by the attending physicians.” 
That was one thing that you needed, was it? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
“ Second. There has long been a great deficiency of milk, 
which is so indispensable for the proper nutrition of children and 
the insane. The quantity produced the past year averages about 
sixty-five gallons per day, or but little over half a pint to each per- 
son on the premises. This amount should at least be doubled.” 
Then I notice in the third paragraph, on the 12th and 18th 
pages, after a period of three years, you use this language 
again : — 
“ I beg to call your attention to the necessity of furnishing, at the 
same time, suitable quarters for cases of delirium tremens, for which 
there is now no adequate provision.” 
Do you mean to say that from 1871 to 1874, when you first 
called the attention of the legislature to this matter of suitable 
quarters for cases of delirium tremens — 
Gov. Butler. He didn’t call the attention of the legislature. 
Mr. Brown. I know ; but he says it comes to the legislature. 
Gov. Butler. lie calls it to the attention of the trustees, 
and then the}" may or may not ever bring it to the attention of 
the legislature. 2442 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. It is evident that in every one of these reports 
he did call it to the attention of the legislature, because each 
one of them is called a public document. 
The Witness. You can see in their report whether they ap- 
prove it or not. 
The Chairman. His report runs to the trustees. 
Mr. Brown. And the report of the trustees to the governor 
and council, and they transmit it to the legislature ; so it comes 
to that. 
Q. Do you mean to say that from 1871 to 1874 3rou didn’t 
get those suitable quarters for cases of delirium tremens? A. 
Haven’t got them yet, sir. 
Q. Have not. Have you had anything done for you for 
cases of delirium tremens since 1874? A. No, sir. 
Q. Didn’t have anything this year? A. No, sir. 
The Chairman. It is one o’clock. Let us try to put in as 
solid a week as we can. 
Gov. Butler. How long will you sit on Monday? 
The Chairman. I think until one o’clock. There is no ses- 
sion in either branch until two o’clock. 
Adjourned to meet on Monday, June 25, at 9.30 a. m. 1883.] 
HOUSE—-No. 300. 
2443 
FIFTY-FIRST HEARING. 
Monday, June 25. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a. m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Thomas J. Mahsii {recalled). 
Direct examination resumed by Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. I have accidentally mislaid some of my papers 
and I have sent my young man after them, so 1 will break in on 
the order in which I was and take up another topic till he comes 
back. 
Q. Mr. Marsh, when this insane hospital was built, which 
you indicated on the map, on Saturday,—there is the insane 
building [referring to plan],— I understand it was built about 
one-half in the first instance, and then, afterwards, an addition. 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When that half [referring to plan ] was built were there 
individual bath-tubs put in it? A. There was. 
Q. How many? A. Four. 
Gov. Butler. What time was that? 
Q. When was that; give us the date as near as you can. 
A. 1 think I said the other day it was about seventeen years 
ago ; that is my impression ; sixteen or seventeen years ago. 
Q. It was before Mr. Dudley ever became connected with 
the institution ? A. Oh, 3’es. 
Q. And, also, before Mr. Barker? A. Mr. Dudley was 
never in that part of the building as an attendant; Mr. Barker 
was there. 
Q. Now, when the second part of that building was built— 
Gov. Butler. Dudley was never in that building. 
Mr. Brown. He never was in the first part of it; he was 
superintendent of the second part. 
Q. Now, when the second part was built were individual 
b3.th-tubs put in that? A. There was. 2444 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And that was before Mr. Dudley ever came to the insti- 
tution? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And before Mr. Barker or his wife ever came to the in- 
stitution? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Dudley, if I recollect correctly, in his testi- 
mony states that he came to the institution sometime in Nov- 
ember ; the seventeenth or eighteenth of November, 1876 ; was 
there any system of registering the duties of the night watch- 
man when he went there? A. I think, then, sir, it was not in 
use. That is, we had previously had watch-clocks, and by 
taking up some flooring and changing the rooms they had been 
brought into disuse. Afterwards,— I don’t know, I think it 
must have been during the time he was there,— there was 
watch—portable watch-clocks, as we call them. 
Q. Portable watch-clocks? A. Yes. 
Q. And do you know whether he had such a portable watch- 
clock? A. I can’t say certainly. 
Q. As night watchman ? A. I can’t say certainly. 
Q. Captain Marsh, when Mr. Dudley went to that institu- 
tion, did you ever tell him in any form of words, not to see too 
much ? A. Never. I put him there to see all that it was 
necessary to see, everything. 
Q. Did 3rou give him any instruction as to what his duties 
were? A. I did. 
Q. You did? A. Yes. 
Q. Will 3'ou state what these instructions were? A. Well, 
substantially — 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Were they in writing? A. There 
was the regulations, a little book something of that sort. [Book 
produced by Mr. Brown.] 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Do you recollect whether these regu- 
lations [referring to book] were in force at that time? A. 
[Examining book.] 1866, — I am not quite sure, but I think 
they were. I think there was a new set got out, — it is in a 
smaller form, — and they were got out, perhaps, about the 
summer that he left there ; that is my recollection. 
Q. Well, was there any time while he was there that either 
these regulations which you have in your hand [referring to 
book produced], or the smaller book containing the regulations, 
were not in force? A. No, sir. 
Q. And was he furnished with a book containing these 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2445 
regulations? A. Well, now, about that I would not say 
certainly ; but it was my habit to furnish — 
Gov. Butler. Leave out your habit, sir. 
The Witness. They were posted up everywhere, all about 
the building, in sheets. 
Q. In sheets? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. AVell, was there any posted in any department of the 
main building which he frequented as night watchman? A. 
Yes, sir; I think they were put up in all the rooms of the 
building. 
Q. All the rooms of the building? A. Yes, sir; I don’t 
now speak of the insane building; I mean the main, wooden 
building. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do you claim that there are any 
regulations about night watchmen here? [Referring to book.] 
A. I didn’t say there was, sir ; I simply spoke about that. 
Gov. Butler. I only want to know. 
The Witness. Previous to Mr. Dudley’s being hired, when 
he was down in Maine, I wrote a letter to him. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You mean before he came to the 
hospital? A. Before he came at all, after he had made appli- 
cation lor himself and wife lor a situation. I had a letter 
written to him, telling him of a vacancy that was about to occur, 
and telling him that if lie would come I would show him what 
there was to do ; he could see the place, know what the work 
was, and, then, if it was agreeable, he could have a place. 
Q. Now, did he come in answer to that letter? A. He 
did. 
Q. Did }'Ou show him what the duties were? A. Why, 
yes, sir. 
Q. Then he served about a year as a night watchman ? A. 
Well, about that I should have to refer to my books, because 
that has been my habit. 
Q. You don’t recollect without reference to the books? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, do you recollect the Barron woman? 
A. Well, I have seen her, sir. 
Q. Did you see her while Mr. Dudley had charge of the in- 
sane department? A. Well, I think I must; I am not sure, 
but I think I must. 
Q. Have you had any habit in regard to visiting the institu- 
tion, its different departments ? A. Yes, sir, 2446 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What has been your habit in that regard? A. My 
habit was to go at all times. I had no definite, particular time 
to go, but to go so I could be informed of what I thought I 
ought to know, — everything that was going on. 
Gov. Butler. It was his habit not to have any habit. 
The Witness. Not exactly, sir. 
Gov. Butler. If I understand it, he used to go when he 
wanted to. 
The Witness. What I mean to say, exactly, is this: some 
men have a habit of going at a specific time ; 1 always thought 
it was better not to have any definite time, but to go just when 
I was a mind to. 
Q. That is, to go at irregular times? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So to ascertain precisely what was going on? A. That 
is what I went for. 
Q. And you intended not to have the attendants understand 
that you had a regular time? A. I intended it so. 
Q. So that they could not be apprized of your approach? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, sir, in your tours of inspection was there any part 
of that building which you did not examine, or any building 
connected with the institution ? A. 1 might not examine it 
every day, but I was through it everywhere, more or less, all 
the time. I was familiar with it. 
Q. Now,, for instance, take this insane department, where 
this Barron woman was, would you be able to say upon your 
present recollection that you visited her cell at all while she was 
in it? 
Gov. Butler. Your recollection ! 
Mr. Brown. From your own recollection. A. What say? 
Q. Would }rou be able to say you visited her cell at all 
while she was there? A. I am. 
Q. You are? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was that cell, Captain Marsh, ever in a filthy* condition 
for an}7 period of time, any length of time, within your know- 
ledge? A. She wasn’t always in the one place; she was 
changed from place to place. 
Q. Well, give us the different places where she was? A. 
Well, she was in that room described to you by your witness on 
Saturday ; she was also in the basement, as that young woman 
said, strapped upon her seat. We were obliged to strap her, 
because she could not sit; she would not sit, The fact of it was 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2447 
the woman in her habits was a beast, and she was violent; she 
would bite, she would scratch anybody that came near her ; 
she would tear her clothes, or anybody else’s. 
Q. Do you recollect any other place except the tAvo you 
have mentioned where she was kept? A. I only remember 
those two. 
Q. Now, sir, if that cell where Mr. Dudley says she was 
kept, was filthy for any considerable length of time, to whom, 
in the administration of the affairs of that institution, would 
the responsibility belong? A. Well, I should think it would 
be his place to inform me such*was the condition. 
Q. Did he ever so inform you? A. Not to my recollec- 
tion. 
Q. Did he ever inform you that she lacked proper care as to 
cleanliness of her person, or of her cell, or that she did not 
have proper food ? 
Gov. Butleu, It would not be his duty as night watchman. 
Mr. Brown. lie didn’t tell anything about her while he 
Avas night watchman. 
Gov. Butler. Let us understand. His testimony is,— 
whether it is believed or not is another question,— that as soon 
as he got there he cleaned it out, and therefore there was noth- 
ing to inform ; both he and his Avife so testify. 
Mr. Brown. Oh, yes; he said that when he took charge of 
the Barron woman he cleaned out the cell, and that he took her 
out of the .cell; now, I have shown she was in the cell four 
months after he Avent there. 
Gov. Butler. That depends. 
Mr. Bkown. I guess Ave Avon’t have any difficulty about 
that. 
Q. At any time while Mr. Dudley Avas connected with the 
institution, did he make any complaint to you that the Barron 
woman was not properly cared for, either in respect to cleanli- 
ness of her person or her cell, or in respect to the quality of her 
food ? 
Gov. Butler. I object to the question, if it is to be put in 
that form, for this reason, Mr. Chairman: of course, it is only 
competent to contradict Mr. Dudley ; but he don’t claim that he 
ever did. If his testimony is taken at all, it must be taken as 
he gives it, which Avas that lie took her out and made her com- 
fortable, and there was no complaint to make, and that he did 
his duty. Now, to sIioav that he didn’t complain, is not ger- 2448 
CHABITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
mane to any matter here. Why should he make a complaint, if 
his testimony is true ; and if it is not true, how does it contradict 
him ? 
Mr. Brown. Why, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Dudley sa}rs that 
when he went there this woman was in this cell; that she was in 
this filthy condition, and that her cell was in this filthy condi- 
tion, and that she was emaciated in the way in which he de- 
scribed. Now, it does appear that there was a time while Mr. 
Dudley was there when she was in this condition, because the 
cleansing of the cell and the cleansing of the woman was not a 
thing that was done instantaneously. Now, if that condition 
of things existed for a period of fifteen minutes, and it reflected 
upon the conduct either of himself or any subordinate, or of 
any of his predecessors in that department, it was his duty to 
have reported it to Captain Marsh. 
Gov. Bcjtler. Was it? 
Mr. Brown. It certainty was. It was, whether there was 
any rule or regulation of that department or not. The common 
dictates of humanity should have prompted him, unless he .was 
a villain, as 1 suspect he is. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; abuse him now a while. 
Mr. Brown. Unless he was a villain the common dictates of 
humanity would have led him to go to Captain Marsh and say, 
“ Here is a woman that I have just taken charge of in this de- 
partment, and the indications are that she has not been cared for 
as she should be.” And the chairman will recollect that it was 
only the chief attendant, Mr. French, who left; the subordi- 
nates didn’t leave. So that there was still under Mr. Dudley 
the very persons who had been in part responsible for this con- 
dition of things. Mr. French was the only one who had left. 
Now, I say that if in any way, shape or manner, there was 
anything there that was wrong for five minutes, he should have 
reported it, and he never did. And the fact that he never did, 
together with the other evidence which I have produced and 
which I shall produce, 1 intend to argue, show that Mr. Dudley 
is a most deliberate liar. He came here under, as I am in- 
formed, a promise that if he succeeded well, he should have the 
superintendency of some .almshouse. 
Gov. Butler. I can only say, sir, to that last fling, that 
Mr. Dudley, so far as I know, had no promise of anything from 
anybody. Certainty it could not have been me, for I have not 
the appointment of a single almshouse keeper in the State ; and, 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2449 
if it was by any of the board of state charities that have the 
power, or any of the trustees that have the power, I don’t know 
it; and the insinuation is as false, as, — well, I don’t think of 
an}’ word of characterization that is equal to the occasion. 
Now, then, let us see what Mr. Dudley says. He said that he 
came in the place of one French, who was discharged, who had 
this woman in charge. The subordinates were to do nothing, 
of course, except what they were told to do and directed to do; 
they were not responsible for anything; he was responsible, — 
French was responsible. French had been discharged. He 
says as soon as he got there lie made an inspection, and found 
this woman. What did he do? He says lie took her out, 
cleaned her, could not account for her emaciated condition, 
watched the idiot girl, and found that she turned the food that 
was sent to this woman into the water-closet; that he immedi- 
ately took pains, .then, to see that she got it, and for a time 
did it himself; and that he immediately put her in good condi- 
tion. Now, if you can conceive any duty of his to make any 
complaint to anybody, that being true, I cannot. Why should 
he complain of a man that had been already discharged and 
gone? What advantage was there in complaining of him? 
He was done and ended. He might just as well complained of 
the emptiness of a last year’s robin’s nest. Now, the question 
which is wanted to be put here, in order to affect his credibility, 
is: did he complain? He wasn’t asked if he complained, so it 
won’t affect his credibility upon that. There was no duty to 
complain ; his duty was to remedy ; and, if he tells the truth, 
he did remedy. I agree wholly with the counsel, that he and 
his wife are two of the most deliberate liars I ever met, if this 
story is not correct; and you have got to deal with the differ- 
ence between this and this young member of the harem who is 
brought here; and that will be settled one of these days, when 
we come to it. But we are not balancing testimony, now. We 
are upon whether this tends to contradict'Mr. Dudley, — that 
he didn’t complain. I submit to you as a judge, whether this 
does contradict him at all. 
The Ciiariman. Governor, here is this testimony, page 113 : 
“ Did you make any complaint in regard to the condition of this 
cell where this woman, Mrs. Barron, was kept, except what you 
have said in your direct examination ? ” “ Yes.” “ To whom ? ” 
“ To Dr. Lathrop, and to Capt. Marsh afterwards.” Now, the 
word complaint, —I don’t know that we stand upon that, —• if 2450 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
he makes a report or complaint of the condition, — I would call 
your attention to that testimony. 
Gov. Butler. Precisely; I am content to take it. He 
might have reported it; I don’t know whether he did or he 
didn’t, — he says he did, — but he had no duty to complain of 
it. He says he reported to Dr. Lathrop, and Dr. Lathrop was 
the proper person to report it to ; and he says he reported it to 
Captain Marsh. Captain Marsh had no special charge. The 
special charge of this insane department should have been and 
is by statute, under Dr. Lathrop, and Dr. Lathrop has been 
upon the stand and he has not denied that the matter was 
reported to him. Has lie? Won’t you look and see the record, 
if you have any doubt upon that? 
Mr. Brown. He has not read that; he says no such thing 
ever existed. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me; he don’t sa}’ the cell wasn’t 
dirty. But we are now upon the question whether this contra- 
dicts the question asked of him. When some other question is 
asked I ma}’ not have any objection to it. And it is put wholh* 
on the ground that it was his duty to complain. Now, I insist 
that it was not his duty to complain. It was very natural he 
should have spoken of it, very natural he should have reported 
it, but it would have done no earthly good to complain. He 
remedied it, as he says. 
The Witness. Mr. Chairman, perhaps I might as well cor- 
rect an error that has been made. There were two Mr. Frenches 
there and their wives. The Mr. French who had the charge of 
this part where Mr. Dudley went, had died ; he had not been 
discharged. He died there in August. 
Mr. Brown. So that Mr. Dudley never was escorted around 
the building by Mr. French and instructed how to take care of 
the insane department, was he? 
Gov. Butler. We will see about that when we come to it; 
we will look at the books. We won’t now get off the question ; 
we will have that decided and then we will come to that. That, 
I should think, would be a much more material matter, and that 
we can tell by these books, easily. 
The Chairman. The pending question may call for a vote of 
the committee, and I suppose the counsel notice we are short of 
a quorum. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, in order to avoid any complica- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2451 
tion, I will withdraw the question, because I see there is not a 
quorum present. 
The Chairman. For the present, at least. 
Gov. Butler. I am not going to raise any question of 
quorum, sir. I have gone on with many investigations with- 
out a quorum. 
The Chairman. Then we will settle the question. 
Mr. Brown. If the question is not to be raised I am willing 
it should be settled. I will withdraw the question. 
The Chairman. Proceed, then. 
Q. Captain, when was the first time you ever heard this 
story about the condition of the Barron woman? A. Well, I 
don’t think I could state that positively. 
Q. About? A. She was brought there — # 
Q. No ; I mean in regard to her ill-usage. 
Gov. Butler. Her emaciated condition. 
Mr. Brown. Her emaciated condition, and all that sort of 
thing, as testified to by Mr. Dudley; when did you ever hear 
of that for the first time? A. I saw the woman when she 
came. 
Q. What I mean is, when did you ever hear the story of Mr. 
Dudley about her treatment and her condition, if at all? A. I 
heard it here. 
Q. Never heard it before? A. Not to my knowledge. 
Q. Did you ever hear that she had been any way neglected 
before you heard it here? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear that her attendants, this girl that is 
said to be idiotic or demented, was not sufficient and all that 
was necessary for her? A. There had been no complaint about 
it, sir. The first intimation that I got was here. 
Q. Here. Now, Captain, I want to ask you if you have 
read the testimony of Mr. John H. Chase? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear, or ever know, that any body of any 
person who died at that almshouse had been sold, before you 
read his testimony? 
Gov. Butler. Been what? 
Mr. Brown. Been sold. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know as I object. 
Mr. Brown. Go on. 
A. Does he in his testimony say it was sold ? 
Q. Well, that has been claimed. A. I know there never 
was any sold, if that will answer. 2452 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You know there never was any sold ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Under the statute, state what you understood your duty 
to be in relation to the disposition ol' the bodies of the dead for 
anatomical purposes? 
Gov. Butler. I must object to that, — not what he consid- 
ered his duty to be, but what he did. I shan’t object to that. 
Mr. Bkown. Well, we will come to what he did afterward. 
I take it that this is a question of good faith. This man was 
charged with corrupt practices and corrupt motives, and 1 take 
it this is a question of good faith. If he understood in good 
faith that the trustees or he alone had the right to dispose of 
bodies of persons who djed at the institution, and were to be 
buried at the public expense, and make such arrangement for 
their disposition as he saw lit, I want to know what he under- 
stood his duty to be, and, then, we will see whether he did it or 
not. 
Gov. Butler. The difficulty, Mr. Chairman, is that you are 
investigating what was done, and not the motives of those who 
did it. You may correct what is done in the future, but you 
can’t correct the motive in the future, nor you can’t correct the 
motives in the past. You are here to investigate about the 
management of the Tewksbury almshouse ; you are not here to 
investigate the motives of those who did it. That is of no con- 
sequence. You can neither acquit them nor convict them. All 
you can say is, you can inform the legislature that such things 
have been done and state exactly what you find has been done ; 
and then it is for the legislature to apply the remedy, if there is 
any to be applied, or omit to apply the remedy. The way to 
test it, sir, would be this : suppose, in the utmost good faith, 
Mr. Marsh didn’t sell the bodies, but only sold the transporta- 
tion. If that is a good thing to do, and if that is according to 
the law, why, there is the end of it. If it is either not accord- 
ing to the law, or the law wants changing, to prevent what was 
done being done again, why, then, you will so report, and report 
such changes as in your judgment will make this thing proper. 
The difficulty in the conduct of the investigation on the part of the 
defence has been an inquiry into the motive. They have asked 
whether such a thing has been done in good faith more than 
once before. It is of no consequence in what sort of faith it 
was done. What you want to find out is what was done, and 
report to the legislature that that is the thing that ought to be 
done or ought not to be done, and what legislation is necessary 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2453 
to prevent it. For instance, for an example, suppose that in 
the utmost good faith it was thought best to supply these paupers 
with loaf-sugar at a very large expense. It is of no consequence 
whether that was done in good faith or not, to you or to me ; but 
it is of consequence to the public treasury whether this is a 
thing which ought to be done to this class of people. And, if 
we eliminate the motives, we shall get along faster, certainly, 
and they are wholly immaterial. And therefore I am content 
that everything that was done shall be proven •; but I am not 
content to spend the time of the Commonwealth and the legis- 
lature and my own time in investigating into the motives with 
which they were done. The motives are of no consequence, 
especially now, when, through the wisdom or unwisdom of the 
board of charities, the personnel of that institution has changed. 
W e might have, possibly, looked into that, to see whether we 
wanted to recommend that the personnel be changed, but I don’t 
think that is any — I daresn’t say any of your business, be- 
cause somebody will say that that isn’t proper language to use ; 
but I mean just that; 1 mean something with which you have no 
concern. It is the executive that is concerned with that, in its 
various .branches, as to whether there ought to be a change in 
the personnel. What your inquiry is, is to ascertain what has 
been done, and then to report to the legislature any legislation 
needed to so guard the institution that that sha’n’t be done 
again. If you find that nothing has been done wrong, why, 
then, there is the end of it; there is nothing more to be done 
by legislation. If wrong has been done with the purest motive, 
there ought to be legislation to correct it. If no wrong has 
been done, with the worst possible motive, then there is no oc- 
casion for legislation to correct what has not been done wrong. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I want to call your attention to 
section one of this statute. It says: “The overseers of the 
poor of a town, the mayor and aldermen of a city and the trus- 
tees and superintendent of the state almshouse may, to any 
physician or surgeon, upon his request, give permission to take 
the bodies of such persons dying in such town, city or alms- 
house as are required to be buried at the public expense, to be 
by him used within the State for the advancement of anatomical 
science, preference being given to medical schools established 
by law, for their use in the instruction of students.” Nowq that 
does not say whether the trustees and superintendent of the 
almshouse have a right to sell those bodies, whether they shall 2454 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
be delivered to the charge of the institution or person receiving 
them, whether they shall be delivered at the charge of the state 
almshouse ; and it does not even say that if any funds are re- 
ceived for that purpose they shall be accounted for; and there 
isn’t any syllable on the statute book, that I know of, that 
makes these parties responsible for the accounting for a single 
mill wdiich they shall receive, in an}T way, shape or manner, for 
these bodies. Now, the fact was that these bodies were deliv- 
ered, and the institution or person who received them paid sim- 
ply enough to cover the absolute expenses of the transportation 
and handling. That is what the fact was. Now, these people 
are charged with corrupt motives ; and I am very glad to know, 
now, because it may be useful hereafter, that His Excellency 
don’t make any distinction between good faith and bad faith. 
In most civilized countries a distinction is made among men 
between good faith and bad faith. 
Gov. Butler. I have not said any such thing. 
Mr. Brown. And it is refreshing to know exactly what his 
position is. 
Gov. Butler. I haven’t said that, you know. 
Mr. Brown. If I remember correctly, it was said and 
repeated that in this investigation it made no difference whether 
these parties acted in good faith or in bad faith. I conceive that 
it does make a difference. I think that the committee will be 
influenced very considerably by the consideration as to whether 
in your judgment these people did act in good faith or in bad 
faith. Now, that statute is the most indefinite statute that I 
have had the opportunity of consulting for a great many years. 
That is the statute wdiich, in substance, was enacted in 1830. 
It continued on the statute books till 1846. In 1846, if that is 
the year, and I think it is, it was altered, changed, and, then, 
subsequently, it was re-enacted and embodied in the Public 
Statutes of 1882. 
Gov. Butler. Changed once more. 
Mr. Brown. Changed after 1846 back again, and then 
embodied in the Public Statutes of 1882. 
Gov. Butler. No; ’79, chapter 271. 
Mr. Brown. They asked for other legislation in 1879, and 
there is not a member of this committee but who recollects the 
discussion that took place at that time; and, if I remember 
correctly, the bill was vetoed by the late Gov. Talbot. 
Gov. Butler. No doubt about that. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2455 
Mr. Brown. So that it is perfectly evident that for over 
fifty’ years the people of this Commonwealth have settled right 
down on that provision of statute. Whether it is wise or 
unwise.we won’t, as His Excellency sa}rs, consider; it is none 
of our business; but that has been the statute, in substance, 
since 1S40—1830. Now with such a general statute, with such 
general provisions, allowing almost anything to be done, even 
allowing the sale, if you want to call it a sale, a delivery for 
money, which, under that statute, could be had without violat- 
ing even the spirit of it, I want to know what these people 
thought they had the right to do. In other words, how 
did 3'ou interpret that statute, because the obligation was on 
you to interpret it? The obligation was on Captain Marsh to 
interpret that statute, and his trustees. Now, how did you 
interpret it? And, then, I am coming to what 3-011 did. 
The Chairman. It seems to me it isn’t usual to ask a man 
how he understands a statute. The best possible interpreta- 
tion of it, so far as he is concerned, is what he did. I suppose 
we are to assume, in the first place, that ever3rbod3T does their 
duty, that eveiybod3' performs his duty in good faith. It seems 
to me it is not a proper question. 
Mr. Brown. Then I will withdraw it, and I will ask the 
next one. 
The Chairman. If 3-011 want a vote of the committee, of 
course 3rou can have it. 
Gov. Butler. I desire — 
Mr. Brown. No question before the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Isn’t there? Well, I think we shall have this 
question of the statute before the committee. It is said here 
that this statute permits bodies to be given in gross to colleges, 
carted off or to medical colleges, carted off in gross; and that 
the people of this Commonwealth have settled down under that. 
The Chairman. Governor, I suppose there will be a struggle 
over the meaning of the law ; perhaps we had better postpone 
the discussion, unless there is some particular point. 
Gov. Butler. The onh- difflcult3’ is that I want to rescue 
the good name of this State from the reproach that we have 
ever settled down under any such statute. 
Mr. Brown. You want to get to the country. 
The Chairman. It goes on to the record, then, that 3tou 
disagree with Mr. Brown in his construction of the statute. 
Gov. Butler. I disagree with him entirely; it isn’t upon 2456 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the construction of the statute. It was only a very late per- 
formance that this almshouse was allowed to go into this, and 
if the Commonwealth had known what they know now, I think 
they would have altered it. I was going to read to the com- 
mittee the very vigorous language of Gov. Talbot, — and I have 
been only waiting for having him come on the stand, when 1 
wanted to ask him, — in which he denounces this interpretation 
of the statute. 
The Chairman. I think it would be better to wait for final 
argument, Governor, on the question of law. 
Gov. Butler. I only want to say that I read this statute 
entirely different. 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. Proceed, Mr. Brown. 
Gov. Butler. In every way and form, and sometime I will 
give my reading of it; and in that I am confirmed by some of 
the ablest lawyers in the State, and by Gov. Talbot,—that 
don’t help it much, however. 
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Brown. 
Q. Captain, what did you do in regard to the disposition of 
bodies? A. I made provision to have them delivered, such as 
was proper to be delivered, in my judgment. 
Q. Now, for instance, take the period, say, ten years back, 
from 1873 to 1883, what was the mode and what was done? 
Gov. Butler. 1 shall go back a little further than that. 
Mr. Brown. You can go back just as far as you want to, 
to the time of the ark. 
A. Sometime back within ten or a dozen years, I don’t re- 
member the precise year, I had some conversation with the 
board of inspectors — 
Gov. Butler. We won’t have the talk with the inspectors. 
Q. Never mind what they said. In consequence of that 
conversation, what did you do? A. In consequence of that, 
appointed an agent to attend to it. 
Q. And who was it? A. It was my son Thomas. 
Q. Your son, Thomas J. Marsh, Jr.? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And did he attend to it? A. He did. 
Q. Have you read the testimony of Mr. Chase and Mr. Hall 
in regard to it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he make report to you as to what he had done? A. 
No, sir. He occasionally would ask me if it would be proper to 
send any such remains. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2457 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Who would ask that? A. My 
son. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, your son ; yes. 
The Witness. The object was always to try to be careful to 
send those who hadn’t any relatives, so far as could be known. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) So far as could be ascertained? A. 
Yes, sir; the intent was to follow the language of the law, and 
not outrage public sentiment. 
Q. And was there at the institution any books kept showing 
this? A. Not to my knowledge. 
Q. Not to your knowledge? And why not? 
Gov. Butler. I object. 
The Witness. There was none required. 
Gov. Butler. I object to the question. 
Mr. Brown. Object to what? 
Gov. Butler. To the question, Why not? 
Mr. Brown. What is the objection ? 
Gov. Butler. Because we want only what was done, and 
not why it was done. Again we have come right back to the 
question wre had before. 
The Chairman. Whether he was directed by anybody not 
to, I suppose, might be competent? 
Gov. Butler. No ; he said it was not required. That was 
the answer. 
The Chairman. He says it was not required? 
Gov. Butler. Not required. 
Mr. Brown. He understood it wasn’t required by law. 
Gov. Butler. He hasn’t said that. 
Q. Did you understand it was not required by law? A. I 
did. 
Gov. Butler. I object to the question. If the answer is to 
go down, I want it stricken out. I object to his understanding 
of what was required by law. Now, if L am not to be stopped, 
I will give the reason why this is so. Again, I say, what was 
done is what we want to know, what you want to know, and 
you don’t want to know anything else as legislators. You 
know whether it was required by law better than he does, or as 
well; therefore, you don’t want any instruction upon that. 
Now, then, we have this condition of things: that his son was 
appointed an agent some ten years ago — fifteen vears after 
this practice had been going on—by the board of trus- 
tees, — that is the testimony, — and this agent was to keep 2458 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[ Apr. 
no record of what was done. He was not to report to 
the trustees what he did; he was to keep no books in 
any form, and did keep no books in any form, so far as 
we have got. That is settled now, beyond controversjq I 
take it. And we are gravely told that that must be asked 
after, if it was not required. What do you say,-Mr. Chairman, 
when the bodies of human beings are to be disposed of by the 
hundreds ; don’t you think that there should be some record 
kept of them? Won’t you report to the legislature, if this 
testimony is true, that this law ought to be made very stringent; 
that there should be a record kept so they may be traced ? Would 
it outrage public sentiment to keep that record ? Is it possible 
that while a record is to be kept of the disposal of a calf in that 
institution, that the bodies of our brothers and sisters, — for 
the}- are our brothers and sisteis, our friends and relatives, who, 
in the language of Gov. Talbot, may find themselves there sud- 
denl}T, or in any other institution under the overseers of the poor 
anywhere,—for every board of overseers of the poor may send 
bodies away, — are to be sent awa}r and no record to be kept? 
Is that so? And is it to be sworn here, is testimony to be put 
in, that that is not to be required, that it is not required? I 
suppose all public business requires a record. You will find 
statute after statute requiring the most careful record of the 
death and burial of everybody else ; a register, public, so that 
the death can be traced, and a certificate of burial; and nobody 
is allowed to bury a human being decently in this Common- 
wealth without a record, by lawr. Now, are we to be told that 
no record is to be required, and somebod}" made to swear to it 
and it go on our records here? I think not; I think it is not a 
matter of testimony. It, is for you to say, not for anjhody else 
to sa}% that no record was required. It is not a question of 
testimony here. It is the question of the judgment of men 
upon the rights of other men ; and you will say in your report 
whether a record was required. And I protest that there is a 
law against selling dead bodies, because there is a law requiring 
them to be buried, except under certain special circum- 
stances, and there ought to be such a law. The common law 
would come in if no statute existed. And, therefore, I protest 
against any testimony coming in here to go out to the world, if 
you please, or to go out to the people of the Commonwealth, 
that there is no requirement in this Commonwealth that there 
shall be any record kept of the disposal of our dead. If you 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2459 
choose to put it out, be it so; it must go out with ray protest 
that any such testimony should be received, to outrage the feel- 
ing of every man in the State, man and woman in the State. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, there ate a large class of cases 
in this Commonwealth where the question oT good faith is always 
inquired about, and is always considered material to the case. 
I am perfectly awrare what His Excellency intends to claim. 
He intends to claim that, under the provisions of the statute, it 
was the duty of this superintendent and his trustees to have 
kept a record of every death and the disposition of every body, 
and that that record should be, like the other books of the insti- 
tution, open to the public inspection of anybody and everybod}r. 
And, I suppose, he is going to claim that this business was of 
such a character that there is no justification, under any circum- 
stances, of doing it in the night-time. He has already said that 
they had no business to have funeral rites over the dead that 
were to be dissected. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I sa}r that. 
Mr. Brown. Or, wdiat he calls “ mummery.” I claim that 
it was proper and decent and in accordance with the judgment 
of the best sentiment of this Commonwealth, that people who 
died, who were to be buried at the public expense, should have 
funeral rites performed over their bodies, and that then, if 
under the provisions of the law it was necessary or proper for 
them to be delivered to any medical school for dissection, that 
then they could be delivered. Now, I say that the question of 
good faith, — this man has testified to what he did, and I now 
ask him why he didn’t keep a record on his books, and he says 
the law didn’t require it. I say that that answer shouldn’t be 
stricken out. It should stand. It should stand upon the ques- 
tion of his good faith, precisely as in cases, —for instance, take 
a case of negligence, the question alwa3Ts arises and is always 
put: did you know ? Did you have any knowledge of any defect 
in a highway, or in a piece of machinery, or whatever the sub- 
ject matter which caused the injury was; always proper to ask 
the party why he did so and so. It seems to me that this 
answer should not be stricken out. The public officer has a 
right to explain why he did anything in a particular wray; what 
his motive was. To be sure, men’s motives are determined by 
their acts, but I don’t think the motives here, are necessarily de- 
termined by the acts. There is nothing in the act which shows 
that one motive or another might be attributed, further than the 2460 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
simple question as to whether this man was doing his duty ac- 
cording to his knowledge and information, that is all,—whether 
he is acting in good faith. 
Gov. Butler. I must,-as I have the close upon this objec- 
tion, I must say again,'that were you sitting here to impeach 
Captain Marsh for wdiat he did, he being a state officer, and 
report a bill for his punishment, if so found by the Senate, his 
motive would be of the highest significance. Then, if he made 
a mistake in the law, while ignorance of the law excuseth no 
man, yet, it is such violation that everybody would be shocked 
if a man, making a mistake in the law honestly, was to be 
harmed. But there are two troubles here. In the first place, 
Mr. Marsh is not an officer of the State amenable to the legisla- 
ture. He has another superior. He is the agent of the board 
of trustees, required to give a bond, only to the State, for the 
performance of his dut}’. The second is a sufficient one, that 
you are not investigating with a view to impeach him, and that 
is no part of your duty. You are investigating institutions, not 
men. If you were.investigating men, it is too late to investi- 
gate Mr. Marsh’s course, because, under the ruling in the case 
of Secretary of War Belknap, after he is out he can’t be im- 
peached. Now, then, when Mr. Brown states to you that the 
question here is of the good faith with which this is done, he 
misstates the question. The question here is what is done ; 
and then you are to appty the proper legislation, ask for the 
proper legislation upon the facts ; and, I don’t want to repeat 
myself, but, if the fact was done in bad faith and done rightly, 
there is nothing to be said ; if it was done in good faith and 
done wrongly, then you are to apply for legislation to change 
this statute. So that the question whether there was a legal re- 
quirement or not, is only asking Mr. Marsh to a conclusion of 
law, simply. That is all. Now, then, let me show you the his- 
tory of this law. In the first place it wras passed that the over- 
seers of the poor of a town or a city might allow bodies to be 
given to a physician or surgeon, he giving bond for the body,— 
not giving a bond of $100 for 500 bodies. There was no law 
like that; but the law is that he should give a bond for the body 
that he takes, and that that body should be, after being used, 
decently buried, so as not to outrage public feeling. It stood 
substantially in that way until, long afterwards, the words “ state 
almshouse” was put into the law, allowing the state almshouse 
to dispose of bodies in the same way as overseers of the poor. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2461 
And I have some doubt whether, — [referring to the statute] 
“ and the trustees and superintendent of the state almshouse ; ” 
1 think the trustees can’t delegate to an agent that never 
reports, that power to dispose of these bodies. But they must 
be, — each body is a sacred thing, so dealt with bt7 the law, so 
as not to outrage public feeling ; each body is to have a bond 
that it, that body, shall be properly disposed of by chapter 291 ; 
there was some additional provisions given. In the same year, 
however, the board of health, — somebody, we shall find out 
who, before we get through with this investigation, — applied 
to the legislature for a provision entitled an act to provide for 
the more accurate registration of vital statistics. That is the 
title of the act, but, under that title, they attempted to get leg- 
islation about the removal of dead bodies. 
The Chairman. That is 1879 ? 
Gov. Butler. 1879 ; yes. And it was met Iry Gov. Talbot 
in an entirely proper spirit; and that act was intended to legal- 
ize this very practice. [Reading from Gov. Talbot’s message.] 
“ The specific objections to this clause are,— 
“ First, That it is too sweeping It may happen to any one of us 
or of our households, to be smitten with sudden and fatal disease 
among strangers, and taken to a public hospital. Immediate identi- 
fication is impossible, and in two days the surgeon and the scalpel 
must follow.” 
The provision of the act was that it must be done within two 
days. 
“ Second, It is too vague. Who is to decide the rival claims of 
applicants for a body? Under existing laws, officers may grant such 
bodies to any physician or surgeon, ‘ to be used within the State for 
the advancement of science,’ preference being given to medical 
schools. Under the proposed law the delivery may be made to any- 
one, for use anywhere.” 
As was done, as we have learned, with these bodies. 
“ Third, The time is insufficient for friends to claim their dead. 
Our postal arrangements will not permit it. The towns are numerous 
in this State between which letters cannot be exchanged within forty- 
eight hours. 
“ Fourth, It allows no discretion to the local authorities. A mother 
arriving an hour too late, and pleading with tears for the body of her 2462 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
child, must be denied the privilege of burying it among its kindred. 
The law is mandatory. It must go to the dissecting-room. It may 
be said, that, in such a case, the law would be disregarded ; 'but we 
are not to pass laws in the faith that they will be set at naught! 
“Fifth, It requires no bond, as provided in the General Statutes. 
The propriety of an express provision on this point needs no dis- 
cussion. 
“ Sixth, Worst of all, it disregards the requests of the dying, so care- 
fully guarded in the existing statute, which provides that if, in his 
last sickness, the deceased requested to be buried, the body shall not 
be surrendered for dissection, but shall be buried.” 
That is a portion of this law which my brother Brown has 
found it convenient not to read. However poor, however des- 
solate, however without friends, if on his death-bed he requested 
to be buried, then his body, —or requested at any time that his 
body should not go to the dissecting-room, — then his body 
could not be sent thei’e. And there was an attempt, — and who 
made the attempt? — to get legislation to authorize this very 
practice which was done at Tewksbury, and had been going on 
then for twenty years — twenty-one years. And it went 
through the legislature ; but, to the honor of Gov. Talbot, it 
was stopped in a very vigorous message, portions of which I 
have read. But still the practice went on all the same. Now, 
then, “what was the requirement of the law, you are to judge. 
I have given you the history of the law, that you may see it is a 
question of law, and it was known to Mr. Marsh that this legis- 
lation, as I think I shall be able to prove, was asked for; and 
he knew in ’79 that this practice had been not only not sanc- 
tioned, but that his superior, the governor, said it must not go 
on ; and, yet, it has gone on up to the day' you sat here. 
One word further. I want again to enter myr protest. A 
religious ceremony, committing dust to dust, under the forms of 
our church, when it is said over a body which is to go to the 
dissecting-room, and then the remainder to feed the lislies, is a 
mummery, is a disgrace to our civilization, an insult to our 
religion,—the religion of any man who has got faith to believe 
in a God who means to resurrect the body hereafter. And it 
is an outrage to public decency in itself; and the feelings of 
every' right-minded man and woman in this Commonwealth is 
outraged to-day', when it is claimed here that it is a proper use 
of a religious ceremony7, and that the money of the Common- 
wealth is paid out to the clergyman day by day to go and pcr« 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2463 
form the funeral services, — give the last rites of unction, and 
perform the funeral services over a body which is then destined 
to the scalpel and the dissecting-knife. I know I am speaking 
to gentlemen of humane and religious feelings, and I cannot he 
mistaken upon this. This is a matter which no stress of emer- 
gency anywhere can alter the feeling of a humane soul upon, of 
a Christian man or woman. And I have been thus particular 
about this because I want, whatever is done, your attention 
thoroughly called to it, so that this practice may be stopped in 
any event, by law. It is due to every feeling that animates a 
right-minded man. 
The Chairman. This case is complicated, in my judgment, 
by the duty of. the committee to construe this law. It seems to 
me that the Commonwealth itself is on trial, in one sense, for 
having this law ; that is one defendant. Then there is the board 
of health, lunacy and charity, one of the agents to administer it; 
then there is the trustees, another agent to administer it; then 
there is the superintendent, and he says he has appointed a sub- 
agent. Now, then, it seems to me that the object of this inves- 
tigation must be to fix the responsibility somewhere for 
has been done under the law. Now, then, here is a man who 
says that he didn’t do certain things. Now,, it seems to me 
competent for him to show what the controlling influence was 
that prevented him from doing certain things, — not the motive. 
If the trustees are responsible, we should fix it there ; if the 
board of health, lunacy and charity, we should fix it there. 
Upon that ground, it seems to me to be competent. I submit it 
to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. The board of health, lunacy and charity 
hadn’t anything to do with it. 
The Chairman. The motion is made by the governor to 
strike out the answer made by the witness. Those in favor of 
striking it out will raise their hand. 
[The committee voted 1 to 4.] 
The Chairman. It is not a vote. 
Q. Now, Captain Marsh, prior to the time when your son 
Thomas wms designated as the party who should superintend 
this work, by whom was it done? A. When I first went to 
Tewksbury, it was in charge of Dr. Brown, the resident 
physician. 
Q, After that who had charge of it? A, After that Dr, 2464 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Wakefield took his place; I think Dr. Wheelwright had some- 
thing to do with it. 
Q. That is Dr. Wheelwright up at the state house? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, was he at the institution when he attended to it or 
was lie here? A. He used to come up nights. 
Gov. Butler. He was not either a trustee or the superinten- 
dent. 
Mr. Brown. No; well, as I understand you, Governor, do 
you claim that these live trustees and the superintendent, all six 
of them, go to this dead-house and take this body and deliver it, 
or what is it ? 
Gov. Butler. I understand this, that the trustees must make 
some reasonable rules and regulations by which this work is to 
be done, and that, then, the superintendent is to do it in con- 
formity with those rules and regulations. 
Mr. Brown. That is, the superintendent, personally, must 
go to the dead-house and get the body and lift it into the car- 
riage and deliver it to Harvard College ; is that it? 
Gov. Butler. It isn’t worth while to answer so foolish a 
question. 
Mr. Brown. 1 am glad you think it is foolish, because that is 
just the way I thought about it, when you said that was necessary 
and there could not be any delegated authority. 
Gov. Butler. I understand that a man can superintend and 
do a thing and not have to do it with .his own hands. 
Mr. Brown. Very true ; then he may delegate his authority. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; he can’t delegate his authority.. 
Mr. Brown. He can appoint an agent. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; he can’t appoint an agent. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I think it is very foolish to discuss this 
any further. 
Gov. Butler. I know, — when I have answered according to 
Solomon’s proverb, how a certain man should be answered, 
according to his folly. 
Mr. Brown. You seem to appreciate it. 
Q. Now, Captain, what other officer besides Dr. Brown, Dr. 
Wheelwright and Dr. Wakefield, has had to do with it,— and 
your son Thomas ? A. Dr. Hines. 
Q. And those were all the persons, so far as you know, who 
had charge of the arrangements by which these people were de- 
livered? A, Yes, sir, 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2465 
Q. Now, Captain, did you ever know an instance, while you 
were connected with the institution, where a person would be 
buried in a cottin provided by the almshouse and after burial 
the friends would call for the body? A. A great many. 
Q. And the body be taken out of the coffin furnished by the 
institution and put in another one? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want }’ou to tell me what you did with the old 
coffin? A. Usually buried it right back in the ground. 
Q. Put it right back into the hole and buried it, didn’t you? 
Wasn’t that the invariable practice? Did you ever know any- 
thing else to be done? A. They may have been brought to the 
dead-house and changed there, and then not put in ; but the 
large proportion were buried right there. 
Q. So that it is possible *to go to places in the Tewksbury 
burying-ground where people have been buried whose bodies 
have been delivered to their friends and find empty coffins, is it 
not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, of those who die at Tewksbury, can you tell 
me an} thing about the proportion who are called for by their 
friends ? 
Gov. Butler. Is there any record of that? 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Well, is there any record, Captain? 
A. I think not. 
Q. Well, can you tell me what proportion of those who are 
buried are called for? A. I don’t think I could. 
Q. Well, is it a very common thing, right along, more or 
less frequently? A. The number compared to the whole num- 
ber is probably not very large. 
Q. Now, my papers having come, I will resume my examina- 
tion of Saturday. Turning to page nine of the report for 1875, 
I want you to tell me what was the occasion lor your use of this 
language : — 
“ The proportion of able-bodied males and females who are able 
to contribute anything to the labor required in an institution of this 
kind is small indeed ; the larger portion are either subjects for hos- 
pital treatment, or those advanced in years, who require a shelter 
where they may pass the small remnant of time allotted them, in 
comfort and quiet.” 
What was the occasion of your use of that language ? A. I 
suppose it was the condition of the family. 
Q. And by the family you mean—? A. The institution. 2466 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, I want to know what was the occasion for your 
use of this language on the same page : — 
“ The necessity for increased and improved cooking apparatus, 
which was fully presented to you last year, has been met, and, by 
the liberality of the legislature, we have been enabled to re-furnish 
the general and hospital cook-rooms to our entire satisfaction; and, 
with our improved arrangements for cooking, we are now in a con- 
dition to adopt the revised diet table which was prepared and 
presented a year ago.” 
What was the change in the diet which was made? A. Isn’t 
the diet table in there? 
Q. Never mind whether it is or not. You recollect there 
was a change. What was the change? Was that change for 
the better? A. Yes ; it was thought to be. 
Q. You calculated to give a more liberal diet to the in- 
mates? A. And better prepared. 
Gov. Butler. A change of diet on account of the increased 
facilities for cooking. 
The Witness. Well, better facilities. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is, the better facilities for cook- 
ing enabled you to change plan of operations. How many 
times had 3*011 been to the legislature, — before a legislative 
committee? Or, let me ask 3*011 a question before that. In 
each year since 3*011 have been connected with this institution, 
have 3*011 generall3* appeared before legislative committees to 
present 3*0111* wants? A. I should think in the majority* of 
3rears I had. 
Q. Did 3*011 ever call the attention of the legislature, prior to 
1874, when, according to this report of 1875, you did call their 
attention to it, to the necessit3* for increased cooking facilities? 
Gov. Butler. He called its attention in 1874, and got it 
in 1875. 
Mr. Brown. My question is did he ever call for it before 
1874. 
The Witness. I don’t remember that I did, sir. 
Q. Then call in 1874 — 
Gov. Butler. Was answered. 
Mr. Brown. In the next year. 
Gov. Butler. Not in the same 3*ear, because it was called 
to the attention of the trustees ip 1874 ; the legislature voted 
it in 1875, 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2467 
Mr. Brown. But the appropriation was made in 1875. 
Gov. Butler. He didn’t call until October, 1874. The 
next legislature fixed it. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, I want to know what was the 
occasion for your use of this language on page ten of the same 
report: — 
“ Our laundry accommodations have for a long time been limited, 
making the labor in that department unnecessarily severe. We have 
this year made an addition of a room about twenty feet square, 
which has been paid for out of the regular appropriation, and two 
new washing-machines, which will cost about a thousand dollars.” 
What was the occasion for that language? A. Because they 
made those changes; they bought the washing-machines. 
Q. What was the thing, in this regard, which ioperated 
severely upon your institution prior to this change? A. There 
was a very low room in the basement, under the cooking-room, 
and it was very ill-contrived and very uncomfortable ; always 
filled with steam, and uncomfortable to work in. 
Q. Now, I see you use this language :— 
“ The reservoir which has been in course of construction for sev- 
eral years, has this year received considerable attention, and one end 
of it, comprising about one-half, has been completed. We are in 
hopes this will materially aid us in obtaining a supply of water.” 
How many years was that reservoir in process of construction ? 
This is in 1875. A. I should think five or six years. 
Q. By whom was it constructed? A. Mainly by the — 
well, such hired help as we might have, — the teams and the in- 
mates’ labor. 
Q. Whether or not in the winter, during the period when 
you had certain people in the hospital, who were in the habit of 
coming there in the winter, whether you availed yourself of this 
extra labor to construct this reservoir? A. Always. 
Q. Now, during the five or six years when the reservoir was 
in process of construction, what were your facilities for a water- 
supply? A. We had a small pumping-house, — a force-pump. 
Gov. Butler. A steam-pump, you mean? 
The Witness. A small steam-pump, right nearly where the 
present one is. It was small, but still it used to aid us very 
considerably, 
Q, Were you ever obliged ip the summer, during dry 2468 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
weather, to bring water to the institution with a }Toke of oxen, 
and in barrels? A. I have brought a great deal in hogsheads 
there. 
Q. Why did you bring it that way? Were you obliged to 
bring it that way? A. That was before we had the pump. 
Q. When was that? A. I don’t know as I could tell you. 
Q. Well, after you had the pump, you were not obliged to? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you have any lack of water-supply during the time 
when Dudley and his wife, and Barker and his wife, were at the 
institution? A. I should think not, sir. 
Q. Recollect of any? A. I do not. 
Q. Now, I want to ask you, Capt. Marsh, about the color of 
this water that you have at the institution? What is it? A. 
Well, it is the color of ordinary brook-water. 
Q. Dark water; a sort of brownish-looking water; like 
sweetened water? A. Like pretty pure wine, or something of 
that sort. 
Q. Nothing dirty about it? A. No, sir. We had it ana- 
lyzed before we used it at all, and it was pronounced by the 
chemist to be good, pure water. 
Mr. Brown. Simply discolored? 
Gov. Butler. He didn’t say that. 
The Witness. We had water from several places examined, 
and this was decided to be the best. We had some examined 
from Chandler’s Pond, — a large pond on the westei’n side of 
us. 
Q. Now, Captain, I want you to tell me what was the rea- 
son for your using this language on page 10 of the same re- 
port :— 
“ A year ago I called your attention to a great deficiency, and the 
same condition of tilings exists to-day, with this difference — that the 
deficiency of milk has been supplied by purchasing it, as will be seen 
by referring to Table No. 4. I will quote from last year’s report: 
‘ There has long been a deficiency of milk, which is so indispensable 
for the proper nutrition of children and the insane.’ ” 
What was the occasion for the use of the language? A. T 
suppose I wanted barn-room for more cows. 
Q. So that you might raise more miik? A. Yes, sir. I 
think 1 asked fourteen or fifteen years before I got any addi- 
tion. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. BOO. 
2469 
Mr. Brown. That you stated on Saturda}7. 
The Witness. Oh, I had forgotten that. 
Gov. Butler. They had to buy the milk. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, Captain, I want to call your 
attention to page 11 of this report: — 
“ We are still receiving almost every week troublesome cases of 
delirium tremens, and T would again call your attention to the fact 
that we have no suitable place for confining or restraining them. I 
am satisfied that some improvement in the quarters for this class 
should be made as soon as practicable.” 
What was the occasion for that? A. We hadn’t an}7 suitable 
place for them. 
Q. Now, in brief, about how many times have you called 
the attention of your trustees, and in this way, through this 
channel, the attention of the legislature to this fact that you 
haven’t had a suitable place for the confinement of those afflicted 
with delirium tremens? A. I could not tell you how often, 
but ever}7 now and then ; I could not state how7 many times with- 
out referring to the reports. 
Q. What kind of a place did you w7aut, Captain? A. Well, 
I had a sort of an idea, to have some room where there should 
be some lined rooms. 
Gov. Butler. I only want to say to you that the report 
shows that there were not more than two cases. 
The Witness. That may be, sir; but I should still be likely 
to call attention to it. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I suppose in the generosity of your heart 
even tw'o men would be worthy of attention. 
Gov. Butler. Exactly ; but T should not think of telling the 
story that I had troublesome cases there every w7eek when there 
were not but two brought there in a year; that is the differ- 
ence. 
Mr. Brown. Perhaps you haven’t got that right. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, but I have. There it is, total; two. 
Two brought there with delirium tremens. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, Captain, I w'ant to know 
what was the occasion for your using this language : — 
“ As a final retreat for the diseased in mind, whose care, or even 
relief, has been abandoned by experts, and whose physical state 
tends only to decay and death, and as the only shite almshouse, 
which is its true character and designation, for more than a million 2470 
CHARITABLE institutions. 
[Apr. 
and a half of people, its population, in ordinary times, must be made 
up of the infirm, the sick, and defective, of whom many can never be 
expected to leave its walls.” 
“ Under these circumstances no reasonable person can expect the 
rate of mortality to be the same as in ordinary communities. Liable, 
too, as is such a population, to a sudden access of illness, both from 
within and without, it is not easy to maintain, on every day of the 
year, and in every variation of the atmosphere a sanitary condition 
thoroughly satisfactory to ourselves. But constant effort in this 
direction has accomplished results which are certainly gratifying to 
us, and which, perhaps, are the best which can be attained with our 
present needs.” 
What did you refer to by that, saying you were doing the best 
you could with your present means? A. When was that, 
sir? 
Q. In 1876. A. I think it must have been when we had a 
very defective set of water-closets in the insane department. 
In one part of the insane building we had earth-closets, in the 
original building; and also in the hospital. We had earth- 
closets, which proved to be failures. 
Q. Now, this report was made to the legislature, or came to 
the legislature, on the first of January, 1876. Now, you use this 
language on pages 11 and 12 : — 
“ While the presence during the year of an unusual number of 
able-bodied persons has probably tended to this large decrease of 
per cent, in the death-rate, it is in part offset by the inevitable 
decease of the foundlings, who, T regret to say, have been sent hither 
in greatly increased numbers. No less than 82 have been admitted 
during the year, of whom 70 have died; while in 1875, 27 were re- 
ceived, all of whom died.” 
“ Exclusive accommodation, and the kindest of nurses, have been 
provided for these little unfortunates, as in former years, while the 
care and watchfulness of their medical attendants have been unceas- 
ing; but all has been in vain In view of these facts, I would 
respectfully recommend such legislation as will require the muni- 
cipal authorities to commit them to the Massachusetts Infant Asylum, 
where the State has made ample provision for their support, and 
which has special facilities for their nurture, both in the institution 
itself and in private families ” 
Was that the first time that you had called the attention of the 
legislature to the necessity for legislation for the care of found- 
lings? A. 1 could not say, sir. 
Gov. Butler. The first time it is found in the reports. L883.1 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2471 
The Witness. I presume it was, sir. 
Q. Prior to that time you had had foundlings in the institu- 
tion? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Always. 
Q. Now, when was there any change made in the law under 
which those foundlings were disposed of in any other way than 
to send them to this institution, if you recollect? A. I should 
think it had been three or four years ; possibly five. 
Gov. Butler. Well, jrou can tell by looking at the law. 
Q. But it was some time after you called their attention to 
it? A. Yes, sir. Our board of trustees urged the same thing. 
Q. Now, in 1876 }'OU used this language : — 
“ But I must once more call your attention to the pressing need 
of suitable accommodations for cases o*f ‘ delirium tremens,1 which 
are now sent here in increasing numbers. This is absolutely 
required for their own safety, and for the comfort of the sick and 
infirm, who are liable to be seriously disturbed by then’ outcries.” 
Do you recollect that? A. I suppose I do. 
Q. Now, I want you to tell me, Captain, what was the 
occasion of your using this language: — 
“ I therefore suggest that temporary accommodations for several 
hundred more be provided by erecting a temporary building, at a 
moderate cost, on the western side of our enclosure, of one story and 
a half in height. This will be sufficient for an exigency, as we can 
feed and clothe without difficulty, and lodging room is the one thing 
requisite.” 
What did that refer to? 
Gov. Butler. Several hundred more patients, 1 suppose. 
Q. What was the occasion of your use of that language? 
A, I had in contemplation a large increase of the family. I 
presume it was in consequence of that. 
Q. Well, had anything occurred? A. I don’t remember 
anything especially about it. 
The Chairman. I think we will take five minutes’ recess. 
Gov. Butler. I wish the committee would stop promptly at 
one, because I have got to go a little distance. 
[ Recess.] 
Q,. Now, in the report for 1877, on the 11th page, 3Tou use 
this language: — 2472 
CHARITABLE institutions. 
[Apr. 
“ We also need some place for the accommodation of those 
afflicted with offensive diseases.” 
What did you mean b}r that? A. Well, such as required 
isolation. 
Q. You say here :— 
“ All of the above classes of patients are now kept in such close 
proximity to others as to be a source of great discomfort, if not of 
danger. A building adequate to these wants, of a size and appear- 
ance corresponding to the hospital, might be advantageously built 
on the western side of our grounds.” 
What was the class of patients to which you referred? A. 
They were such as would make it unhealthy, uncomfortable, 
and unpleasant throughout the sick wards. 
Q. I notice in this report of 1877, }rou speak of the matter 
of the water-closets. Those were built by an appropriation 
made in 1876 ; between that and October, 1877? A.. I believe 
so, sir. 
Q. And these are the same arrangements you have now? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You use this language on page 13 : — 
‘‘The general good conduct of the inmates, and their cheerful co- 
operation in the work of the institution, is worthy of a word of com- 
mendation. A little more than a year ago the cells intended for the 
punishment of men were demolished, and no substitute has been sup- 
plied. Although this fact has been known to all the inmates, no 
occasion for punishment, of any kind has arisen. I wish, therefore, 
to express officially my appreciation of their good conduct.” 
Now, what cells do you refer to there? A. Some that were put 
there when the house was built. 
Q. That is, you mean the main body of the house? A, 
Yes, sir ; they had been taken out. 
Q. They were in the basement, you say? In what part of 
the main body of the house? Either of the wings? A. Yes, 
sir ; on the western side ; in the part which is now the women’s 
baggage-room, off from the bathing-room. 
Q. The women’s baggage-room ? So that you have no means 
of confinement; no place to put a person who is refractory in 
any way, if, in your judgment, they ought to be confined in the 
institution at all. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2473 
Gov. Butler. For punishment. 
Mr. Brown. For punishment. 
The Witness. There is nothing except these rooms. 
Q. Those in the insane department? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In the other part of the institution there is nothing? A. 
Nothing at all. 
Q. Up to the time that you ceased to be superintendent, and 
during the last few years, in the absence of these cells, what 
have you resorted to as a mode of punishment, — as a means of 
punishment,—as a substitute? A. The only thing I have had 
has been, that if anybody persisted in being uncomfortable and 
refractory, to tell them to leave. 
Q. To leave the institution? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, sir, up to the time when you left its management, 
was the threat that they should be expelled from the institution 
a sufficient punishment? A. It always had its effect, because 
I was rid ol' them ; they went. 
Q. They went. That is, when you told them to go? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And did the fear that they might be compelled to leave 
the institution seem to restrain them? A. Well, I always 
thought it had a good effect. 
Q. The expulsion of some was an example to others? In 
other words, the}' seemed to enjoy staying there? A. I don’t 
know as I say that, because there is always a portion that want 
to go away, I don’t care how comfortable you make them ; they 
would not be satisfied. If they were boarding at the Revere 
House, they would want to go to the Tremont,—they would 
want a change. 
Q. And if they were boarding at the Tremont, they would 
want to go to the Vendome ? A. Somewhere. 
Q. I want to know Captain, what was your occasion for the 
use of this language : — 
“ A perfect administration cannot be expected where nearly all its 
subjects are imperfect or defective in some faculty or function of the 
body or mind. Even the wisest may differ in the methods of dealing 
with them. I therefore welcome all fair and reasonable criticism by 
competent persons, as affording valuable aid in solving the difficul- 
ties that may occur in the future.” 
That is in your report of 1878, and I want to know why you 
used that language. A. Well, I don’t remember distinctly 2474 
Cl I AKITA BLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
about it, but I suppose some criticism had been made in some 
quarters concerning the administration. 
Q. Were 3’ou present at the investigation in 1876? A. I 
was. 
Q. Did you testify? A. I think [ did. 
Q. And from 1876 to 1878 had there been other criticisms, 
within your knowledge, made upon the institution? A. I don’t 
remember anything particular. 
Q. Now, I notice again, in 1878, which T believe is the third 
time 3011 use this language : — 
“ The condition and fate of the motherless infants thrown upon 
our hands by the cities and towns have caused us great anxiety for 
the past as well as for previous years. No medical skill, no contin- 
uous and self-sacrificing effort on the part of physicians or nurses, 
avail to save their lives; and at the same time no remonstrance or 
plea on our own part, though made earnestly for years, has availed 
to prevent their commitment. Under these circumstances I respect- 
fully l’ecommend that such as are sent here, who arc in a condition 
to be removed, be placed in the care of the corporation known as 
the Massachusetts Infant Asylum, in accordance with the Act of 
1867, after due communication and arrangement with the officers 
thereof, and with the Board of State Charities.” 
Gov. Butler. 1867? 
Air. Brown. That is the wa3r it reads. 
Gov. Butler. I thought 3rou said they had changed the 
law. 
Q. What was the occasion of your using that language? A. 
I wanted to see if T could get them anywhere where they could 
make them live. 
Q. What effort did 3Tou make, other than 1)3- your communi- 
cation in your annual reports, through that series of years, to 
have those children cared for at some other place? What other 
effort than this made in your annual reports? A. The 011I3’ 
other thing I did was to talk with the agents of the board, who- 
ever they’ might be. I always talked with them about it. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) By “ agents ” who do 3rou mean? 
I don’t understand? A. I mean Mr. Wrightington and Mr. 
Wheelwright; am’ of those folks connected with the board. 
Q (By Mr. Brown.) Did 3’ou visit other institutions for 
the purpose of learning the means of treatment? A. I did, 
sir. 
Q. Where? A. I visited all that I could find all around 1.883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2475 
me here, in the West, in California, in Maine — or at least, in 
Halifax — and wherever I went. I never went a great deal, 
but when I went I made it in my way to visit such places. 
Q. And did you try to study their ways of treating this un- 
fortunate class and to get information? A. There was not 
very.- much study about it; I found about the same result every- 
where. 
Q. Did you visit the institution known as the Gray Nuns in 
Montreal? A. No, sir; I didn’t go to that, but I went to two 
or three of the other ones there. 
Gov. Butler. What was done up there we won’t have in 
here, I think. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know ; we rqav. I have got some offi- 
cial reports under the seal of the Canadian Government. 
Gov. Butler. We will talk about those when they come in. 
Q. Never mind what the result was ; but you did visit insti- 
tutions in Montreal? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you visit St. Mary’s Asylum in Boston? A. I 
don’t think I was ever there. 
Q. Did you visit the Chardon Street Home to see what 
could be done there, if anything? A. A good many times. 
Q. How many times? A. I could not tell you, sir; fre- 
quently. 
Q. Now I want you to tell me why it was that from 1875 to 
1879 or 1880 there were so many more foundlings at Tewksbury 
than there had been in previous years. A. I never could tell. 
Gov. Butler. You don’t mean that, do you? 
Q. More in each 3’ear than there ever had been in previous 
years. A. I was never able to tell. 
Q. You recollect that to have been the fact, do you ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. I notice that on page 12 of this report you use this lan- 
guage : — 
“We are grateful for the public interest in this institution, as 
manifested by the considerable number of visitors and the contribu- 
tion of books and periodicals for the use of its inmates, and other 
kind remembrances.” 
Now, 1 want to know, Captain, if at the public expense, the 
result of the expenditure of the Commonwealth’s money, there 
have been any books, or pamphlets, or papers furnished to the 2476 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr • 
institution, and if so, what. A. Do you mean aside from the 
purchases ? 
Q. Well, go on. A. You mean aside from the purchases 
of the Commonwealth? 
Q. No. What has the Commonwealth purchased for these 
people? A. We have been allowed, if we had — if our appro- 
priation would admit of it at the close of the year we were 
allowed about $50 worth of books for the library. 
Q. Have you been allowed during any year that you have 
administered there, — ever purchased daily papers for the in- 
mates? A. No, sir; I don’t think we have. 
Gov. Butler. Won’t you repeat that a little louder, sir? 
The Witness. AYc have not. I don’t know but they might 
have been allowed, but they have not been. Our method about 
papers has been to take such papers as we thought necessary and 
proper. Sunday mornings they have been given out to all the 
inmates; they collected around to get them. A\re had a great 
many sent to us besides. We have had for a }'ear or two quite 
a bundle sent up from Lawrence. AYe have books and papers 
and things sent by some society in Boston, — four or five bar- 
rels at a time ; and all those things, besides access to the library, 
which the inmates have. 
Q. How many volumes are there in the library, about, now? 
A. I should think 800 or 900 ; possibly more. 
Q. Do you find that the inmates express a desire to read? 
A. Yes, sir ; a good many of them do ; some don’t care any- 
thing about it. 
Q. Now you speak of the number of visitors. Have you 
kept, since you have been there, a register of visitors? A. 
There has been a register, a book for registering names, lying 
upon the table. 1 don’t suppose a quarter part of those that 
have visited there have signed their names. A good many 
have. That book is an ordinary style of book, of about that 
thickness. [Several hundred pages.] It is pretty well filled 
now, but not quite. 
Mr. Brown. I want you to bring that book down here to- 
morrow morning. 
The AVitness. The register? 
Mr. Brown. The register of visitors. 
Gov. Butler. Haven’t we got that yet ? 
The Witness. There has not been any call for the register, 
I believe. 1883.j 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2477 
Gov. Butler. I have called for every possible book. 
The Witness. Well, you should have had it if I had known 
you had wanted it, certainly. 
Q. Now, in the report for 1879, page 10, you say : — 
“ The legislature of last year granted us an appropriation of 
$4,500 for increased facilities for obtaining water.” 
What deficiency was that to supply? A. As 1 said before, 
when we put in the first steam pump it was small and the 
pipe running from it was small. We substituted a large pump. 
I forget the name of the maker. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) A Knowles pump? A. No, sir. 
Q. A Blake pump? A. I believe it was a — 
Q. A Wadsworth? A. The agent for it is down here in 
a building in the square. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) A Fales pump? A. I will tell you 
to-morrow, if you will wait. 
Q. There was a deficiency in the water supply, was there, 
not? A. Yes, sir; our increased buildings gave us an in- 
creased demand for water, and we laid a pipe then from the 
boiler-house to the reservoir on the hill, a six-inch cast-iron 
pipe, and then brought it from the reservoir down to cisterns in 
the yard. 
Q. How much higher is the reservoir than the sill of your 
house? A. It is not so high -as the house. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) As high as the sill? A. It is as 
high as the floor on the first story; that is the second floor. 
Q. The first chamber floor? A. If we had a tank there four- 
teen feet higher we could furnish water all over the house. I 
got the pipes laid for that purpose and have asked two or three 
times for that also. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Asked who? A. The legislature, 
or our board. The method of asking, as I said, was to ask the 
board, and if they approved of it, to go to the legislature. 
Q. Did they approve of it? A. They did. 
Q. And you went to the legislature? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But didn’t get it? A. I have not got it yet. 
Q. State again precisely what it was you didn’t get. A. 
We wanted a reservoir — we told them if it could be elevated 
from the surface of the highest ground, it would furnish a sup- 
pi}" of water that would go of its own force all over the build- 
ings — the highest of the buildings; and that we had laid a 2478 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
pipe, branching off from the main pipe — laid a pipe to that 
highest point, so as to have nothing to do but to have the reser- 
voir and make the connection. 
Q. And that work was done by whom? A. Well, done 
mostly by our inmates. Of course, if we had nothing else to 
do we should put on our hired help or any teams, or matters of 
that sort. 
Q. Now, I notice in the last paragraph on this same page 
you use this language : — 
“ In the building occupied by children, further accommodations 
are absolutely indispensable.” 
Gov. Butler. What }'ear was that? 
Mr. Brown. 1879. 
Q. What did you refer to by that? 
Gov. Butler. That was after the foundlings left. 
Q. What did you refer to by that? A. That there was not 
sufficient room for the children. 
Q. In what regard? A. We hadn’t sleeping-room and 
play-room enough before. There was lacking a little dining- 
room and one more sitting-room, or dormitory, or whatever you 
call it. 
Q. Captain, do you find that many of the children who come 
to* the institution are taken out of the institution, and adopted 
by private parties? A. Not many now, sir; there used to be 
some,—a good many ; but not now. Occasionally there is a 
call for them. 
Q. Do you know what has occasioned the change? A. I 
do not; unless they have not so many pleasant children. And 
yet, I think, we have some very pretty ones. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; I have got some pretty pictures of them. 
Gov. Butler. Well, now, the state board, Mr. Brown, 
since the foundlings were taken out, have taken the adoption 
into their own hands. 
The Witness. Yes ; but if we had any I should be likely to 
know it. 
Gov. Butler. They don’t take them from there ; they take 
them from their own foundling institution. 
Q. Then you say at the top of the lltli page: — 
“I have no hesitation in again stating that an additional barn for 
the storage of our increasing crops, and to enable us to increase the 
number of milch cows is an urgent necessity.” 
That is the same old story ? A. The same old story. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2479 
Q. Now, I notice in 1880, on page 10 of your report, you 
say: — 
“The new laundry, for which an appropriation of $8,375 was 
granted by the legislature of this year, has been so far completed, 
that we hope to occupy it this month.” 
Was that the matter which you referred to a few moments 
ago, or was it the construction of a new building? A. When 
I spoke of the other I 'spoke of it as being a poor, crowded, un- 
comfortable place. And after the fire occurred it still became 
worse, and we asked for a laundry. I don’t remember how 
long before we got it. 
Q. When was the fire, do you recollect? A. I remember 
it was in January ; three or four years ago, perhaps. 
Q. Then, for the purpose of increasing your supply of milk, 
you had a silo built in 1880, did you? A. We had one built. 
I could not tell you when. 
Gov. Butler. I guess that was not for the milk ; they have 
bought the milk, lately — the larger portion of it. 
The Witness. ' They bought a portion of it. 
Gov. Butler. The larger portion of it. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) How was it about the silo? How 
much did you get for the silo? A. Well, sir, that was put in 
with other things — an addition to the barn, etc.; I have for- 
gotten what. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I see that in 1881 you called the at- 
tention of the legislature again to the fact that you need this 
high service. A. I know I did, sometime. 
Q. “ When we laid our new water pipe to the reservoir,” 
etc. In that you refer to the same subject? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now I want you to explain more fully than you did the 
other day—In 1881 you used this language :— 
“ I need hardly call your attention to the desirability, not to say 
necessity, of removing the cobble-stone paving in the yard, and sub- 
stituting something better suited to the surroundings. The difficulty 
which the old and feeble experience in picking their way over it, 
your own trials in this respect, and the suggestions of governors, 
committees, and ‘ strangers within our gates,1 call for an improve- 
ment in this part of the grounds.” 
Have you had any accidents there? A. Why, yes ; we have 
had accidents. I don’t know of anything in consequence of 
that. 2480 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, lias there been complaint among the inmates who 
have to travel over that section of the yard ? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. The difficulty in travelling over that pave- 
ment. 
Q. Now, Captain, I have been over these reports and called 
your attention to many of the requests that you have made. Is 
there anything which you have in your mind as specially 
necessary for the comfort and convenience of the inmates of 
this institution? A. Well, 1 suppose now that is in the hands 
of other parties. 
Q. I know. But were you still acting as superintendent and 
were yTou to appear before a committee and ask for an appro- 
priation for anything you needed, what would you say' yrou 
wanted ? 
Gov. Butler. He made his report this y’ear and asked for 
all he wanted. 
The Witness. I didn’t get all I asked for, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. What you asked for we have already. 
The Witness. Oh, if I was going to continue in charge I 
should think I ought to pay some respect to the suggestions 
which have been made in the further improvement in the care 
of the sick — the living of the sick. 
Q. The diet ? A. Yes, sir ; the diet. 
Q. Now in regard to the employment of the persons em- 
ployed there as insane patients. 
Gov. Butler. I object to this, because this is what has come 
up since. Since this investigation he has seen a good many 
things, I have no doubt, that he thinks he would like. But he 
has made all his last requests in his report on the first of 
January. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t care enough about it to press it. 
Gov. Butler. Pass me over the rest of those reports; I 
would like to get them into continuous line. Haven’t you some 
more ? 
Mr. Brown. Some of those which I used on Saturday’ are in 
the hands of the reporter. 
Q. (Byr Mr. Brown.) Now, Captain, I suppose a good 
many’ y’oung women who come up there for summer vacation 
have sealskin sacques, don’t they? A. Not much. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. I ask him if a great many’ y’oung women were 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2481 
in the habit of corning up there for summer vacation with seal- 
skin sacques. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t see what that has to do with this in- 
vestigation ; still, go on. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Did you ever know a woman to come 
there with a sealskin sacque? A. I don’t remember of an}' 
such thing. 
Q. Captain, have you and your wife been in the habit of 
appropriating the clothing of these people? 
Gov. Butler. Well, L object to that. Stop a moment. I 
object to that question. Nobody has said that Capt. Marsh 
appropriated any of that clothing. 
The Witness. They have said that my wife has. 
Mr. Brown. Wait one moment; I can accommodate you 
perfectly. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Did you ever know of any member 
of your family, Mr. Marsh, or any other member of your 
family, appropriating anything which belonged to any of these 
people? A. Not a cent’s worth. 
Q. Did you ever know of any member of your family taking 
any of the property of the Commonwealth or receiving any of 
the property of the Commonwealth for their own use? A. 
What do you mean ; of the clothing or — ? 
Q. Clothing or food — except what they had at your table ? 
A. No, sir. — Yes; there was an exception in which there 
were two barrels of apples sent to Exeter once on a time. 
Q. Those are the apples we have heard of? A. I presume 
so. 
Q. Now, Captain, have you been in the habit of keeping all 
your grandchildren, or any considerable proportion of them, 
there at the almshouse to live on the Commomvealth ? A. 
They could not have been there very well for they have all been 
attending school. I believe the last one graduates this week at 
Harvard. 
Q. Now tell me, have you got a grandson known as the 
Davis boy ? A. Not to my knowledge. 
Q. Dudley said you had a Davis boy for a grandson? A. 
He was mistaken. 
Q. You never heard about it? A. He was mistaken. 
Q. Well, you have some Atwood boys who are grandchil- 
dren? A. Yes, sir; I see one of them here. 
Q. One of them is a professor at Exeter Academy? A. He 2482 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
lias been acting in that capacity; has not been appointed regu- 
larly. While they have been making arrangements for their 
centennial which has just passed by, Professor Wentworth put 
him — perhaps him and another one — in his place in the 
school; and they call him professor, I believe. 
Q. Now, you had another Atwood grandchild who gradu- 
ated at Harvard this year, I believe. A. He has not yet 
graduated. It is his seeond year. He is all ready, I believe. 
Q. Now, Captain, have you been in the habit, or did you 
ever send an}' goods from Boston or elsewhere, purchased with 
the Commonwealth’s money, to the Davises or the Atwoods? 
A. Not to the value of a dime ; not a cent’s worth. 
Q. Now, I want to know, Captain — of course you never 
sent any coal there ? A. I have bought and sent coal there a 
good deal, but not of the Commonwealth’s. 
Q. Never paid for by the Commonwealth? A. Not a mill. 
Q. Did you ever know that any member of the Atwood 
family or of the Davis family had a silk dress which was the 
property of one of the paupers? A. No, sir; and nobody 
else. 
Gov. Butler. Better speak lor yourself, Captain ; that will 
be as much as you can do. 
The Witness. I know what I am talking about, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Well, you cannot tell what other people have 
done. 
The Witness. I know about that. 
Q. Now, Captain, have you been in the habit of selling pigs 
and calves and putting the money in your pocket? A. Not 
much. 
Q. Did you ever sell a pig or a calf and put the money in 
your pocket, and not return it? A. No, sir; with one ex- 
ception. 
Q. Well, let us have that? A. There was a transaction 
about a pig with Mr. Pillsbury. I heard his statement here 
that he paid ten dollars for a pig. I believe there was a credit 
found of five dollars for a pig; and it was supposed that five 
dollars of it slipped out through the fingers somewhere. That 
pig, that five dollars, was a transaction about a pig with another 
man, — Mr. Poor. 
Q. In other words, they got the wrong pig by the ear? A. 
They got the wrong pig by the ear. That transaction was with 
Mr. Poor, who was the manager of Mr. Russell’s farm — our 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2483 
Congress member there—and that five dollars was received 
from him, and ho is ready to come here and testify to it, if you 
want him to. The other ten dollars I still have ; and when the 
account is made up — 
Q. (B}t Gov. Butler.) You still have the ten dollars? A. 
I have the ten dollars. 
Q. (B}* Mr. Brown.) You are ready to settle your account 
with the institution at any time ? A. At any time. 
Q. Now, about the calves; ever sold an}’ calves? A. I 
have sold but very few. There have been some sold there, but 
I was rather opposed to selling bob veal. 
Q. Did you ever know, Captain, that a calf was sold on that 
farm and the money was not properly accounted for? A. Well, 
sir, I will tell you wliat occurred. On ope occasion Mr. Poor, 
my man, who had been employed as head farmer for some 
twenty-two years, came to me one day and said that he had 
been selling those little bob calves, as he called them, and had 
taken the money and bought tobacco with it, to give to the 
inmates. Said he : “ Captain, you know how much work we 
can get done for a little piece of tobacco; and I have been 
using it in that way.” I remonstrated immediately, and said to 
him: “ Mr. Poor, if anything is sold for money, that money 
should go into the treasury of the Commonwealth. Nothing 
should be sold, not a cent’s worth, where the money is not 
accounted for.” 
Q. Was that the first time your attention was called to it?. 
A. That was the first time I knew anything about it. 
Q. Do you know the§e men who have testified here about 
purchasing calves? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Know them well? A. Well, one of them, — Mr. Pills- 
bury, — liyes within a mile and a quarter of me, and the other 
lives on the way to Lowell two or three miles. 
Q. Have you any knowledge as to whether the number of 
calves which they said they have purchased, is correct or in- 
correct? A. I have no means of knowing anything, except 
that the money that has been paid to me is accounted for. 
Q. Is accounted for? A. Yes, sir. Well, there may have 
been some sold since this investigation. 
Gov. Butler. Leave out all done since the investigation 
commenced. 
The Witness. I think there has been some sold since. Won’t 
you have the money accounted for? 2484 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. You are — 
The Witness. Thank you. 
Gov. Butler. You are only asked about what happened be- 
fore the investigation. Leave out what has happened since the 
investigation commenced. 
The Witness. I have got some money that has been taken 
since that time. 
Gov. Butler. You have no business with much. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Mr. Marsh, did you read the testr 
mony of Mr. Dudley in regard to a certain box of dry-goods 
that was taken by Mr. Manning? A. Taken out of the insti- 
tution by Mr. Manning— I did ; two boxes, was it not? 
Q. Now, if, to your knowledge, there was ever a box of 
dry-goods in that corridor described by Mr. Dudley ? A. I 
never knew of any, sir. 
Q. Has there been anything in that corridor? A. I could 
not say there had not been ; but I have no knowledge of any 
such boxes as he describes. 
Q. His description, if I recollect, was in the corridor, on the 
first floor? A. Near the old men’s ward ; boxes about three 
feet square, and weighing about 400 pounds. 
Q. Mrs. Thomas, I believe, placed the boxes on the floor 
above? A. Yes, sir, 
Q. Now, was there anything on the floor above which could 
possibly answer the description given either by Mrs. Thomas or 
Mr. Dudley? A. I don’t know but they might have been 
made, in their imagination, to have answered their purpose. 
There has always been two boxes' sitting on the floor above. 
They are there now. I don’t know as I should say always, but 
for a good many years. But the same two are sitting there 
now. 
Q. What are they used for? A. To throw in anything that 
my wife has wanted to put in them, — pieces of carpets, or any- 
thing of that sort. 
Q. Are they fastened to the floor ? A. I think not; I guess 
they are moveable. 
Q. Are they kicked ? A. My impression is that they are. 
Q. Padlocked? A. I could not say about the quality of 
the lock, but I think she would be likely to have them locked. 
Q. Now, was Mr. Manning in the town of Tewksbury ? Did 
he live there at the time when Dudle}* says this affair took 
place? A. I think he was living there then, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2485 
Q. Do you know what was his condition of health? A. I 
know he was a consumptive man. 
Q. He died with consumption ; when, as near as you can 
recollect? A. Well, I cannot tell you the date, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Did Mr. Dudley say that Mr. Manning took 
them away ? He said it was Manning’s wagon. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Manning. 
Gov. Butler. He knew the wagon, and he knew the rattle 
of the wagon, and saw the light. 
Mr. Brown. Yes; and he knew the man, too. We will 
show you that Manning was* sick with consumption at that time, 
and could not have lifted 400 pounds. 
The Witness. It was as much impossible as it was — 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, if I recollect,*Mr. Marsh, there 
is no hole in the partition ; no door in that partition between 
the corridor where Dudley put that box, and the hall where the 
door is, out of which he said the boxes went into the wagon, is 
there? A. No hole? 
Q. No door, no passage-way. A. There is a door on the 
other side, which is usually kept locked. 
Q. But between that corridor and the hall where the front 
door is, — there is no door through that partition ? A. No ; 
they would have to come out that corridor along to this, and 
then through the front entry. 
Q. That is on the back side of the house? A. Yes; there 
is a door that enters the main entry on the back side of the 
house. 
Q. I am speaking of this corridor near the front door? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. There is one back door which goes out-doors? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Is there an)' door through the partition which leads into 
that part where your dining-room is? A. No, sir; no, sir. 
Q. Is there any way of getting that box out of the front 
door? It must be taken out-doors from the corridor and then 
into the main entry-way of your apartments and then out of the 
front door? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now is there any other way that it could have been done ? 
He might have rolled it up one flight of stairs and then rolled 
it down. 
Gov. Butler. We don’t claim that he did it that way. You 2486 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
need not trouble yourself about that. There is one egress which 
you haven’t located quite. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, Captain, you have been buy- 
ing some milk at Tewksbury for your inmates? A. At 
Tewksbury and other places. 
Q. From whom did you buy it? A. Well, do you mean 
all that I bought? 
Q. All that you bought? A. When I went to Tewksbury 
they were supplied by the North Tewksbury people. 
Q'. I want to limit you, Captain, because I don’t think it is 
necessary to go into it as extensively as your answer might in- 
dicate. I want to limit you to what was testified to by Mr. 
Pillsbury and others? A. We bought of Mr. Pillsbury for a 
year and a half, or something of that kind. 
Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Pillsbury or anybody that the 
reason why his bid was refused was because it contained a frac- 
tion of a cent and it was difficult to reckon it up? A. 1 think 
I asked him what he bid that miserable fraction for; I guess 
those were my words. 
Q. “ What did you bid that miserable fraction for ?” A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. What was his answer? A. I don’t know. He felt—he 
was very much provoked and said that Mr. Elliot had influ- 
enced— 
Q. (By Gov. Butler) One of the trustees? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, at the time when his bid was 
rejected, whose bid was accepted? A. The parties who had 
been supplying the milk, which was the town of Billerica, the 
Billerica almshouse—the}'’ used to raise milk to sell— 
Q. Now, let us see. Mr. Elliot was one of the overseers of 
the poor? A. One of the selectmen and overseers. 
Q. Was he present and did he have anything to do with the 
contract for the purchase of the milk? A. I have only given 
yon one of the parties. 
Q. Well, take any party that you say you haven’t named? 
A. The town of Billerica, and one Tewksbury man by the 
name of Livingston, they were the parties that supplied the 
milk when he bid for the milk that year. When the bids were 
considered, Mr. Elliot stated to the board in my hearing: “I 
am one of the overseers of the town of Billerica. I have said 
to our board of overseers : if you have anything to do with 
the delivering of milk at Tewksbury, you must do it by your- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2487 
selves. I am connected officially, and I regard ray duties to 
the institution as paramount to this, because I have been there 
longer. You must make your arrangements without me; I 
take no part in it.” That is what he said he said to them. 
And lie said to our board — 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That is what he said to the over- 
seers? A. Yes, sir ; that is what he said. 
Q. What he said he said? A. What he said to the trus- 
tees he had said to the board of overseers. That is what he 
said to our board that he had said to their board of overseers. 
“ Now,” said he, “ I want to stand in the same condition here. 
I take no action in it. Whatever you do, you do as your judg- 
ment dictates, and I take no action in it.” 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, Capt. Marsh, was it the 
reason why Mr. Pillsburv’s bid was rejected, that there was a 
fraction of a cent there? A. Well, that might have had some- 
thing to do with it in this : it was so small, and it was known 
that these parties who furnished the milk furnished the very 
best qualit}r. Mr. Porter Livingston had long been known as 
one of the best suppliers of milk in that region, and we 
thought the other was equally good. We didn’t know what we 
might get from the other parties. There had got to be two or 
three to furnish it if Mr. Pillsbury’s bid was accepted, and we 
thought it was better to let it remain as it was. 
Q. Mr. Dudley was discharged, was he ? A. He was. 
Q. What were the facts about that? A. Well, there was 
an accumulation of circumstances about it. I didn’t like his 
management; the trustees didn’t like it and had spoken to me 
once or twice about it, particularly Mr. Nourse. 
Q. What was the cause of complaint against him? A. 
We didn’t think he paid proper attention to his duties. 
Q. And in what respect did he not pay proper attention to 
his duties? A. Well, he got very much, before he was dis- 
charged, into the habit of going out and playing croquet in the 
afternoon, himself and wife, and leaving the inmates more or 
less to themselves. 
Q. Where did he go to play croquet? A. Out in the back 
yard. 
Q. Back of the insane building? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. You had a croquet ground there for what purpose ? A. 
He’had. 
Q. Was it an institution of his own? A. Yes, sir. 2488 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Brought it there himself? A. I didn’t furnish the ma- 
terial. 
Q. Did l*e introduce it within }Tour knowledge, for the inmates, 
or was it for his own gratification? A. I don’t know that ever 
I saw any of the inmates playing. 
Q. He and his wife spent their time there? A. Well,— 
and others. 
Q. Well, what other cause of complaint? A. Well, sir, 
the immediate cause was for his impudence to my wife. I sent 
her over for something I saw that I thought required looking 
over. She said she had been there before; I asked her to go 
again, and he was discharged for that. 
Q. Captain, there has been a great deal said here about 
Mrs. Marsh not visiting the different parts of the institution. 
Within your knowledge, how frequently has Mrs. Marsh visited 
the different apartments of that institution while she has been 
matron? A. Well, sir, in the early stages she used to visit 
all for a great many years. She has. been a little like myself, 
growing older every }rear, and could not get about, the last year 
or two, so well; and I had a substitute for her in her daugh- 
ter. 
Q. (By Gov. Butlsr.) In who? A. Her daughter. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is, your daughter Nellie? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Daughter Nellie? A. Daughter 
Nellie. When, in 1876, growing out of that investigation, the 
care of the hospitals, the inside, the medical care, the appoint- 
ment of the nurses and the discharge of the nurses, and all that 
sort of thing, was put into the immediate care of the physician, 
she had nothing to do there, nor had I anything to do with the 
hospital. It has been, ever since 1876, a double-headed system 
— two heads to it. We haven’t quarreled ; we have got along 
fairly well. Sometimes the doctor would want more than I 
thought I could furnish on the means I had, and I didn’t furnish 
it. Mrs. Marsh, she is my wife, and perhaps I may be allowed 
to speak of her. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Nothing to do with the hospital 
since 1876? A. What is that, sir? 
Q. Nothing to do with the hospital since 1876? A. Ex- 
cept to furnish what was wanted. My wife always had the 
reputation of being a good housekeeper and an economical 
woman. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2489 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment; I object. 
The Witness. I don’t care ; I am going to say that much. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I think you will be bound by the 
proprieties of life, sir. You are not in the Tewksbury Alms- 
house now. 
The Witness. I am not what? 
Gov. Butler. You are not in the Tewksbury almshouse 
now. You will be bound b}T the proprieties of the occasion 
here. 
The Witness. Exactly; I propose to be. But “that old 
woman ” and “ old Mrs. Marsh,” and all that sort of thing — 
Gov. Butler. With that 3'ou have nothing to do. 
The Witness. Has been abused sufficiently. * 
Gov. Butler. I object. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Well, since 1876 how frequently has 
she been in the habit — ? A. But, all over the main part of 
the house and in the insane building she has been ; only for the 
last year or two she has not been able to go as she used to, by 
reason of rheumatism. Her daughter, up to the time she died, 
used to go to the hospital; she could go down on the other 
floor quite well and comfortably, all where it was her duty to 
go. 
Q. Now, your son Thomas — his wife was matron of the 
sewing department, up to what time? A. I think 1876 ; about 
that. 
Q. Now, since 1876, Captain, she has been under no obliga- 
tion, whatever, to enter that department for the purpose of do- 
ing anything, has she? A. She has gone there. 
Q. But has she been under any obligation ? A. She was 
not paid anything; she was not hired. 
Q. Now, did she go there? A. I guess she attended to it 
all the time. 
Q. The same as she did before? A. As far as I know. 
Q. Now, for how many years, without pay, has Thomas’s 
wife been attending to that sewing department? A. Well, 
from the time she was discharged ; from 1876, I think it was. 
Q. Some six or seven years. Now I ask you whether Mr. 
Dudley complained about, the Barron woman. I want to know 
if Mr. Dudley, while he was watchman or while he was in 
charge of the insane department, ever made to 3-011 an3* of the 
complaints which he has referred to in his A. 
Well, sir, I could not recollect a thing about it. 2490 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Have you read his testimony recently? A. I have; 
and I heard it given, too. 
Q. Can you now recollect that 3rou ever heard of them be- 
fore he stated them upon the witness-stand? A. I cannot. 
Q. Now, you know Mr. Barker who came here from Salem? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And }Tou recollect when he was at the institution? A. 
Yes, sir. I could not tell you the year without referring to the 
book. 
Q. Now, have you ever known, at an}' time since you have 
been in the institution, anywhere, —I will put it broadl}' — that 
a large number of persons, or an}' number of persons were 
bathed in filthy water? A. I heard what he said about them. 
Q. Did you ever hear about it before ? A. No, sir. 
Q. lie never made any complaint to you about it? A. He 
said he did ; I have no recollection about it. 
Q. Either Mr. Dudley or Mr. Barker? A. Mr. Dudley, in 
the matter of bathing, had ample tubs. 
Gov. Butler. That is not the question. The question is 
whether he made any complaint. 
The Witness. Barker had two tubs and his pool or pond. 
Q. How many tubs did Dudley have? A. There must 
have been half a dozen and perhaps more ; certainly half a 
dozen. Ain’t they marked off on that plan? 
Q. You think certainly half a dozen when Dudley was 
there? A. Yes, sir ; in his department. 
Q. Now, whose duty was it to have seen that those people 
were bathed in pure water, good water, if it was not the duty of 
Mr. Dudley and Mr. Parker? A. That was their business. 
Q. There was at that time, all through 1876,1877, 1878 and 
1879, an ample supply of water for bathing purposes, was there 
not? A. I should say there was, sir. 
Q. And there was hot and cold water? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. At each of these tubs? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All you had to do was to turn the faucet? A. !Yes, sir. 
Q. And get either hot or cold water. 
Gov. Butler. Get cold water or steam to heat it with? 
Q. Was it steam or hot water? A. Cold water heated by 
steam. I think the way they used the pool, in the first part of 
it, in the hospital where there were two tubs set was, they used 
to draw the water into what they called the pond or pool and 
heat it there the night before and then dip it into those bath- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2491 
tubs from that pond, so that they could go right along bathing 
as soon as anybody could be bathed in a tub. 
Q. Now, Captain, this man, French Joe; he has been at 
your institution for a long time, hasn’t he? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he has attended to certain duties ; what were they ? 
A. lie has had charge of giving out the groceries, and some- 
thing to do about giving out the shoes ; he has given out any- 
thing that he may have given out of the clothing upon some- 
body’s order, my own or Thomas’s. 
Q. Somebody’s order? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he had charge of the groceries and supplies, did 
he? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was he able to do that properly? A.* He is a very 
competent man and a good penman. 
Q. Did you ever have reason to suppose that he was wanting 
in integrity or untrustworthy? A. I never did, sir. I never 
saw anything that led me to think that he was dishonest. 
Q. Now, something has been said b}- one of the witnesses in 
regard to the sale of stockings and clothing. Did you ever 
know of any clothing being taken from the institution by the in- 
mates, in that way? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear from the man who testified, — I think 
it was the depot-master, — did you ever hear from him, or any- 
body else, circumstances in regard to that inmate’s taking stock- 
ings to Lowell to sell, before this investigation ? A. I heard 
the statement of the man Driscoll; that was the first I knew 
about it. 
Q. Are you and Driscoll on good terms? A. The only 
thing I know is — there is not much terms about it, except I 
see him and speak to him. 
Q. How frequently do you see him ? Have you seen him for 
the last ten years? A. Well, I have not known anything about 
him until the Boston & Maine ran their branch over there, and 
he went there to attend the depot. 
Q. When was that? A. It must have been running six or 
seven years. 
Q. What I want to get at is this : Has he had any oppor- 
tunity, without great inconvenience to himself, to have told you 
that he knew that stealing was going on in the institution, if he 
had wanted to? A. He might have told me if he had been a 
mind to. 2492 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You have seen him frequently ? A. Frequently enough 
for that. 
Q. Do you know where he lives ? A. I don’t know where 
he boards ; he is a single man, I believe ; liis business is at that, 
depot — what we eall Macy’s Crossing. 
Q. How far is that from the institution? A. A mile, or a 
mile and a half, perhaps. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Is Macy’s Crossing only a mile and 
a half from the institution ? A. From two miles to two miles and 
a half. 
Gov. Butler. 1 understood you a mile or a mile and a 
half. 
The Witness. No, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, Mr. Marsh, I want to know 
if any such interview as this, described on the 89th page of this 
record, took place between yourself and Mr. Dudley. The 
question was : “ After you went into the insane department, tell 
me what was the condition of things, if you saw anything re- 
markable?” And the answer was : “When we took charge of 
the insane, Capt. Marsh placed the gate-keeper on the night- 
watch ; for he was so anxious to have us take charge of the in- 
sane that he came to me and said, ‘Mr. Dudley, I am very 
sorry to lose you. You and your wife have been very faithful, 
and have attended to your duties. I am very sorry to lose you, 
but Dr. Lathrop needs you more over at the insane building, 
than I do, and I can put some one in your place here, and I will 
turn you •over to him.’” Do you recollect that conversation? 
A. I think part of that cannot be true, certainly, because Dr. 
Lathrop had nothing to do with the appointment of anybody 
over there. 
Gov. Butler. Nothing to do with the appointment of any- 
body over at the insane department? 
Mr. Brown. No, sir; not at that time. 
The Witness. lie hasn’t now. 
Gov. Butler. So we have got that fixed. 
The Witness. lie had the medical treatment of that insane 
department. The others, except those under medical treat- 
ment, were treated the same as the inmates ; that was the un- 
derstanding. 
Q. Now, Captain, speaking of the beds in the department 
for the insane, how frequently did you ever examine them? A. 
Well, I personally’ haven’t been in the habit of examining the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2493 
beds. My custom has been to trust that to the attendants and 
supervisors. They are straw beds. All the beds in the house 
are made of straw ; and I have been in the habit of keeping 
.straw on hand to supply and renew all the beds called for by the 
different persons having them in charge. 
Q. Now, sir, did Mr. Dudley call your attention to this con- 
dition of things which, on the 89th page, he says he found 
in the insane department: “I found the beds in a rotten, filthy 
condition.” Did he ever call your attention to that? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Never said a word to you about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then he says further: ‘“They were fairly steaming with 
filth. I found but one sheet on the beds, with tlie exception of 
a very few that might have had two, and some without any.” 
Did he ever call your attention to any such condition of things 
as that? A. That was all new to me when I heard of it here. 
Q. Never heard of it before until he testified? A. No, 
sir. 
Gov. Butler. Does he say he did? 
Mr. Brown. No; he didn’t say he did; he didn’t dare to 
say that. 
Gov. Butler. Why not? 
Mr. Brown. Because it was not true, and he knew that we 
could prove it. 
Q. Now, he says, on the 90th page, that there were insane 
women there without night-buckets. Do you recollect anything 
about that? A. I don’t know what you mean by night- 
buckets ; I used to have vessels there before we had the 
water-closets, — chambers. They are arranged differently now ; 
they are allowed to pass out from their dormitory into the 
water-closet. 
Q. I want you to tell me one other thing in regard to Mary 
Barron. Was she kept absolutely without any apparel upon 
her? A. I never saw her but what she had something on. 
Q. Such as what? A. Well, some dress, or something of 
that kind. It might have been put on for my seeing her, for 
aught I know. 
Q. Were her hands secured? A. That would depend upon 
where she was, sir. If she was in the basement, she would be 
likely to be strapped right around here [the waist] to a settee ; 
her hands might have restraints on. She was a patient who 
would bite and scratch and tear anybody that came near her. 2494 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. She was sent from some insane hospital as a 
harmless insane person. 
Q. Did you ever say to Mr. Dudley, when speaking of any 
of the inmates, children or grown persons, that they were 
brought there simply to die, that you recollect? A. Well, I 
don’t think that was ever my feeling; 1 thought they were 
brought there to be cared for — 
Q. I don’t ask what you thought. Did you ever use that 
language to Mr. Dudley? A. I should say no, sir; most de- 
cidedly no, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That answers the question. 
Q. When did your daughter Nellie become officially con- 
nected with the institution ? 
Gov. Butler. The report will show. 
Mr. Brown. I want to refresh his recollection in reference 
to something else. 
Q. Do you recollect about when it was? A. Well, she 
spent all her time ; at least she spent a good deal of her time 
in the hospital from the time — 
Gov. Butler. When she became officially connected with 
the institution? 
The Witness. When she had pay, do you mean? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 
The Witness. It was some time after her graduation ; I 
don’t remember the time. 
Q. Do you mean to say that from the time of her graduation 
she spent a great deal of time in the hospital? A. She was a 
student of Dr. Nichols and used to assist him a great deal, and 
used to take a great deal of pleasure in going about. 
Q. For how many years? A. It must have been two or 
two and a half; during her studies. She studied medicine at 
the New England Female College, here in Boston, and graduated 
there; and during the time that she spent in studying medicine 
she was a sort of helper and assistant doctor in the hospital; 
but she had no pay for it. 
Q. One question which I omitted to ask you. When for 
the first time was your attention ever called to any claim made 
by anybody, that an}' deceased person delivered to the Harvard 
Medical School had not been properly buried after dissection? 
A. When this investigation began. 
Q. When for the first time did you ever hear that any part, 
or that any skin of auybody had been tanned? I don’t care 1883.] - 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2495 
whether it came from Tewksbury or elsewhere ? A. It was 
here, during this investigation. 
Q. Never before? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was any knowledge or information ever brought to your 
attention at any time to lead you to believe there had been any 
violation of bonds which had been given to the trustees and su- 
perintendent of the almshouse on the occasion of the delivery of 
any dead bodies for dissection? A. Never any. 
Q. Now take the matter of the clothing for the inmates. 
Was there ever any lack of clothing for the inmates? A. 
There might have been for a short time, but it was speedily sup- 
plied. We always intended to keep enough for suitable 
changes. * 
Q. You say there might have been for a short time. On what 
occasion? A. Well, we might have run out of some particu- 
lar thing that we had to come to Boston to buy. It has been 
our habit a great many years to buy all the men’s clothing. 
The stock might have been reduced, but I don’t remember any- 
thing but the fact. 
Q. Did you ever hear anything like this, testified to by one 
witness, that she often saw women shivering with cold when 
making beds in cold rooms? “ Have asked for extra clothing, 
and Mrs. Marsh would sav if there were any old shawls in the 
baggage-room I could have them ; that they could not have new?” 
Gov. Butler. That was Mrs. Marsh. 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
Q. Did you ever hear any complaint such as that? A. I 
don’t know about any cold rooms, because the house is heated 
by steam and the}7 are always warm night and da}7. 
Q. Is the steam turned on early in the season? A. It is 
turned on early ; yes, sir ; as soon as the weather becomes cold 
enough so the rooms might be uncomfortable, we are in the 
habit of running our boiler and having some one sit up and keep 
the steam on all night. 
Q. How early in the season did you put on steam? A. 
That would depend somewhat on the cold weather; but I should 
think ordinarily by Thanksgiving time ; perhaps before. 
Q. I notice, Captain, speaking of heating, there is one bill 
for coal from Bangs & Horton, made out to you privately, and 
paid for by the superintendent’s check. Do you recollect what 
the fact was about that bill for coal? A. Well, sir, I never 
knew anything about it until I heard from it here. I heard of 2496 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
- [Apr. 
it at noon, and I came right in and went to Bangs & Horton 
and asked them what was the matter. 
Gov. Butler. Never mind, if you never heard of it until the 
investigation. What }7ou have heard since I object to. 
Q. Do }rou know where that coal went to? A. It went to 
Tewksbury ; was bought for Tewksbury. 
Q. It went to Tewksbury; where was it used? A. It was 
used at Tewksbury almshouse. 
Q. How do you know that ? 
Gov. Butler. He said he never heard anything about it 
until now. 
The Witness. What, sir? 
Gov. Butler. Only tell what you know; not what other 
people said. 
The Witness. I bought that coal for Tewksbury almshouse,and 
had no more idea it was going to my private account than I had 
it was going to yours. I had been in the habit of buying coal 
of Bangs & Hdrton for years before they furnished any coal 
for the Tewksbury almshouse. I went in on two occasions and 
said : “ I want you to send so much coal of such a size ” ; and 
I never knew it was charged to me — knew nothing about it. 
Those bills were put into the almshouse account; they were 
audited by the trustees and then brought down here, and when 
it was paid for, it was paid for by a State check ; I signed it as 
superintendent, and I never knew it was charged to me pri- 
vately until it was.brought out here. It was bought by the 
State and the State used it; ever}’ bit of it. You don’t doubt it, 
do you, Governor. t 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubts about it; not the slightest. 
Because I know where the coal went, to, you know. 
The Witness. You do know? 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
The Witness. So do I. I have just told. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we will see. 
The Witness. Not a bit. 
Gov. Butler. We will see. 
The Witness. I never sent any coal down to Exeter, Gov- 
ernor, that the State ever paid for; and you know I didn’t. 
Gov. Butler. That didn’t go to Exeter. 
The Witness. I know it didn’t; it stopped right there and 
was used there. 
Q. Duriug the twenty-five years you were in the institution 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2497 
was there any fire at the Tewksbury almshouse, except the fire 
which was there required by the Commonwealth, either for the 
inmates or the officers, to be supported by the Commonwealth? 
A. Any fire? 
Q. Yes ; any coal fire ; any stove that was run for anybody’s 
benefit except for the benefit of the Commonwealth? A. Never 
heard of any ; don’t think there was any. 
Gov. Butler. I will save you the trouble ; I don’t claim it 
there in that way. 
Mr. Brown. The difficulty is, nobody can ever tell what 
you claim. 
Gov. Butler. Not beforehand. 
Mr. Brown. That is what gives you a chance to shift your 
ground so often. 
Gov. Butler. You can never tell beforehand, because I 
always want to set you right; but I have traced that coal. 
Mr. Brown. Finish your sentence, please. [To the wit- 
ness.] Captain, I don’t think of anything else. If I have not 
done my duty by you the Governor will. 
The Chairman. I suppose, Governor, you cannot finish him 
in fifteen minutes? 
Gov. Butler. I should think that would be a little faster 
than I should get on, myself. 
The Chairman. We will adjourn until to-morrow morning at 
half-past nine. 2498 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
FIFTY-SECOND HEARING. 
Tuesday, June 26. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Boring, of Worcester, in the chair. 
The Chairman. Capt. Marsh, take the chair. Do you 
know where Mr. Brown is? 
Mr. Marsh. I do not; I have not seen him this morning. 
[Immediately Mr. Brown came in.] 
The Chairman. Mr. Brown, have you anything further to 
ask Capt. Marsh?— Proceed, Governor. 
Testimony of Thomas J. Marsh {resumed). 
Q. Mr. Marsh, you were born in Exeter, I believe? A. I 
want to correct a statement. Will you allow me to correct a 
statement I made yesterday before I begin. 
Gov. Butler. Correct any statement that you wish to cor- 
rect. 
The Witness. I wish to correct a statement that I see re- 
ported in the paper that I made yesterday. When I went to 
Tewksbury, Dr. Brown was resident physician and Dr. Hines 
was a medical student and clerk. I got Hines and Dr. Brown 
too far apart. I intended to have said that Dr. Wakefield was 
the successor of Dr. Brown as resident physician, but not to 
connect him with the delivery of remains for an}' anatomical 
purpose. 
Q. Mr. Marsh, you were born in Exeter, I believe? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And when did you leave Exeter? A. I should think it 
must have been about 1830. 
Q. What was your business ? A. I was a shoemaker by 
trade ; boot and shoe maker — men’s. 
Q. AVorking at your trade ? A. Yes, sir. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2499 
Q. Where did you go from there? A. I went from there 
to Amesbury Mills. 
Q. How long did you remain there? A. I could not tell 
you precisely, but two or three years — two years. 
Q. Still working at yrour trade? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where did you go from there? A. I went from there 
to Lynn. 
Q. How long did you remain there? A. I think I left 
Lynn in about 1850. 
Q. In 1850? A. I think so. 
Q. Then you spent between 1830 and 1850 either in Ames- 
burv or Lyrnn? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What business, if anyr, did you carry on in Lynn? A. 
When I first went to Lynn 1 worked as a journeyman ; after- 
wards I carried on the business for myself. 
Q. Was that all the business you did in Lynn? A. I 
worked at that most of the time I was in Lynn. 
Q. That may be and still leave a pretty large margin when 
you did something else? A. Oh, yes; I was in a grocery 
store some years. 
Q. How many? A. I should think four or five. 
Q. Four or five years. Before or after you carried on your 
business as a shoemaker? A. After. 
Q. The shoemaking business was not very successful, was 
it? A. Well, it was not, in 1837 nor 1842. 
Q. I asked your business. Please, now, you may as well 
omit jokes ; we are not joking now. A. I meant to answer 
your question exactly as I understood it. 
Q. I asked whether your shoemaking business was success- 
ful or unsuccessful? A. No, sir; it was not. 
Q. It was what? A. Unsuccessful. 
Q. I supposed it was. Then you went into the grocery 
business. In what form did you go into the grocery business? 
A. I went in as clerk. 
Q. Did you come out as clerk ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Next you got an appointment. Where did you go from 
Ly nn? A. I went to Boston, into the custom house. 
Q. As what? A. Weigher and gauger. 
Q. How long were you there? A. In different capacities 
eight or nine years. 
Q. You must have gone, then, before 1850? A. I said I 
left Lynn in 1850, sir. 2500 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. If 3tou went into the Boston custom house and remained 
eight or nine years— A. Allow me to explain, for I want 
to get it right. You asked me when I left L}rnn, and I an- 
swered in 1850. I was appointed to the custom house in 
Boston in 1846, January 1st. 
Q. Now I understand. Were you appointed to anything 
else down in Lynn? A. Yes, sir; I was postmaster once. 
Q. You were postmaster in Lynn? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long? A. About two years, I should think it 
was. 
Q. You forgot that when I asked you what you did in L}Tnn? 
You forgot that? A. I forgot? 
Q. You forgot that? A. Well sir, 3-011 will allow me to 
think of it all, won’t you. 
Q. Very well. You were postmaster in Lynn from what 
time to what time? A. I was appointed in 1839, about this 
time of year, and remained until a change of administration — 
was it 1841 ? Gen. Harrison’s administration, I think. 
Q. He came in in 1841, and lived thirty days? A. Yes, 
sir; then about the time he died I was removed from the office. 
Q. Then you went to Boston, into the custom house? A. 
No, sir. I went then into the grocery business. 
Q. You then went into the grocery business as clerk? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And what was your salary at the custom house? A. 
As weigher and gauger it was $1,500. 
Q. What was it when you first went in ? A. The same. 
Q. You were on $1,500 salary all the time you were there? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you stayed there until 1853? A. I stayed there 
until, I should think, Mr. Peasley came ; I think it was in his 
first year that he was collector. 
Q. Gen. Peasley was appointed collector in March, 1853 ; 
and you left in October, didn’t you? A. I could not tell 
you the month, sir. 
The Chairmam. Speak a little louder. 
Q. You left the custom house in October, 1853? A. I 
could not have told, sir. 
Q. Very well. Where did }’ou go then? You were living 
in Boston at that time? A. I was living in Boston ; yes, sir. 
No. I am not sure whether I was living in Boston or in 
Waltham ; I went from Boston to Waltham. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2501 
Q. What did you do in Waltham? A. Well, I used to live 
there and do business in Boston. The next business I did after 
leaving the custom house I went into the retail boot and shoe 
trade right near the Revere House. 
Q. In what capacity? A. Well, sir, I bought the stock of 
a man who had died. 
Q. How much? About how much stock? A. My recol- 
lection is about three thousand or four thousand dollars’ worth. 
Q. How long did you carry on that business? A. Well, I 
was there until I was chosen treasurer of the State. 
Q. Let us see. 1853 — you were chosen treasurer in Gard- 
ner’s first administration, were you not, and j’ou were one year 
in that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then you could not have carried on that business long, 
because }Tou left the custom house in 1853? A. No, sir; but 
that is the fact, I believe. 
Q. And where did you go then ? What did you do then ? 
A. Let us see — 
Q. We have got down now to 1855 or 1856? A. I think 
for one summer, perhaps a year — I don’t know how long — I 
was secretary of the Republican state committee. 
Q. On what salary, sir? A. Well, sir, I think it would be 
pretty hard to tell. 
The Chairman. The salaries were smaller then than they 
are now. 
Gov. Butler. I have no knowledge ; I never held office in 
that body ; I don’t know what it may be. 
Q. What was your next business? A. Let us see. We 
have got down to 1856. 
Q. Yes, we have got to 1856 ; that was during the Fre- 
mont campaign. I know your historv pretty well, sir. Go on. 
A. Well, in 1856 — 
Q. That was the year you were secretary of the Republican 
state committee? A. Was it? 
Q. Yes. A. I think that year I was a delegate to the 
Fremont convention in Philadelphia; then I spent considerable 
time in Pennsylvania during the election, etc. 
Q. Well, very good. What is the next business you had? 
A. The next thing, I spent the following summer in Kansas. 
Q. Where? A. In Kansas. 
Q. What doing there? A. Well, I was assisting to make 
if a free State, as far as I cpuld. 2502 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Employed at any A. Well, sir, I had compen- 
sation. 
Q. Well, what compensation? A. I suppose that is a 
private matter, Governor. 
Q. Well, no ; oh, no ; making a State a free Slate is a pretty 
public matter. A. That was. 
Q. Very well. And the compensation for it, I should say, 
was equally public. Well, now, then, we will come down to it. 
In 1858 you were appointed by Governor Banks to this alms- 
house? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In all this business will you tell me what particular thing 
that you had done, you think — never mind what he thought — 
you think qualified you for this particular position. 
Mr. Brown. I object to the question I don’t see what 
business that is of ours — what he thought his qualifications 
were. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
Mr. Brown. That is the very question you objected to, yes- 
terday. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no, sir. Pardon me. I objected yester- 
day to what this man thought about the law. 
Mr. Brown. Yes. And now 3*011 ask what he thought were 
his qualifications for a public office created by law. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. That is not the law. 
The Chairman. I don’t see how that is competent. 
Gov. Butler. I am trying to find out what qualifications he 
had to cany on this large establishment 
The Chairman. What 3*011 and I think ma3* be competent, 
but what he himself thinks — I don’t see how that is competent. 
Gov. Butler. Why not? He knows more than you and I 
both about it. 
The Chairman. I don’t know. 
Gov. Butler. I have got the veiy best witness. Other 
people may* be mistaken ; he cannot be. 
The Chairman. The committee will do what they will with 
it; I will submit it to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. I want to ask him what qualifications — what 
business he has had, or what qualification he had for this par- 
ticular office about which we are having this investigation, to 
carry on this large establishment. 
[The question was rejected ; one vote for, four against.] 
Q. Well, had 3*011 airy? 1883.] 
UOUSK — No. 300. 
2503 
The Chairman. I suppose that is the same thing. 
Mr. Brown. Well, L object to it. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I insist upon it. 
The Chairman. Will the committee admit it? 
[The question was rejected; one to three.] 
Gov. Butler. Well, then, we will take it that he hadn’t any. 
I was as willing it should be put there as anywhere. 
Q. Now, sir, in 1858 what, — of whom did your family con- 
sist when you were apppointed to this office? A. I think it 
consisted of my wife, my father, four sons and four daughters. 
— 1 beg your pardon, sir; while I lived in Boston one daughter 
was married in Waltham. 
Q. Wait a moment. I will come to that, — where they were. 
Your whole family — never mind where they were — consisted 
of your wife, yourself, your father, four sons, the oldest of 
which— A. Mrs. Davis. 
Q. Ah! and four daughters, the oldest of which was Mrs. 
Davis, then married ; who was the next in order of age? A. I 
would say that there have been nine children born into our 
family ; the second child died. Now the next one was — 
Q. Was this child born in 1858? A. No, sir. 
Q. Very well. In 1858 when you went there. Which was 
the next in order of age? A. Thomas. 
Q. The next? A. Mary F. 
Q. Now Mrs. Atwood? A. No, sir ; Mrs. Hanson. 
Q. Mrs. Mary F. Hanson. Who next? A. A. J. Marsh. 
Q. What? A. A. J. 
Q. What does A stand for? A. Adoniram. 
Mr. Brown. Adoniram Judson. 
Q. Adoniram Judson — A. J. Marsh? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who next? A. Catherine. Mrs.— 
Q. Atwood? A. Atwood. 
Q. Who next? A. Helen M. 
Mr. Brown. That is the one we have called Nellie. 
Q. Who next? A. Charles B. 
Q. All right. Now, Mrs. Davis — A. One more you 
haven’t got. 
Q. Oh, one more; who was that? A. William H. 
Q. William H. Do I understand you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, in 1858, how many of your daughters were mar- 
ried? A. One. 
Q. That was Mrs. Davis? A. Yes, sir. 2504 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And she was then in your family ? A. No, sir ; she 
was living in Waltham at that time,—in 1858, }'ou said. 
Q. You were living in Waltham then? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, up to the time of your appointment, wasn’t she 
living in your family then? A. No, sir ; keeping house her- 
self. 
Q. With her husband? Had he left then? A. With her 
husband. 
Q. How soon did he leave? Whether he hadn’t left before? 
A. I think I have got the thing mixed. 
Q. Well, now unmix it. When did the husband leave? 
A. I think it was in 1856. 
Q. He had been gone two years, and left your daughter on 
your hands ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, on whose hands did he leave her? A. She was 
keeping house herself. 
Q. How many children ? A. One, I should say ; I guess 
two. 
Q. Two? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. She hasn’t an}'more than two, has she? A. No, sir. 
Q. He never has returned, — the husband? A. Well, he 
has been in this quarter of the country. 
Q. But never returned ? A. Never returned to live. 
Q. And he left her without means? A. Not quite. 
Q. Pretty nearly? 
Mr. Brown. I would like to know what this is to 11s, — 
whether Mrs. Davis has means, or whether she has not, in 
1858. 
Gov. Butler. 1 am now on the cross-examination of this 
witness. 
Mr. Bhown. I don’t care if you are. There are certain 
limits to cross-examination ; there was when you were cross- 
examined before a congressional committee, I notice. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; there was no limit then. 
Mr. Brown. You objected to having your private affairs 
gone into, and the committee sustained your objection. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; I did not. That is another newspa- 
per slander, which mean men take up to talk about. Now 
quit. 
Mr. Brown. I found it in the “Congressional Record” 
this morning. 
Gov. Butler. You haven’t found it there, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
jt 
2505 
The Chairman. I suppose the governor proposes to show 
that this man and his family had nothing, and have grown rich 
out of the State. 
Gov. Butlur. Now 1 don’t want any impudence or abuse. 
Mr. Brown. I shall do my duty without regard to your 
wishes in any way, shape or manner. 
Gov. Butler. It is no part of your duty to slander me. 
The Chairman. On that ground, I think it may be com- 
petent. 
Mr. Brown. On what ground ? 
The Chairman. On the ground that this man and his family 
had nothing, and have grown rich out of the State. 
Mr. Brown. Well, but, Mr. Chairman, what'business is it of 
ours what means Mrs. Davis had in 1858? He went to Tewks- 
bury in 1858. Why inquire into her private affairs in 1858? 
The Chairman. Mrs. Davis was his daughter — 
Mr. Brown. And didn’t live in his family. 
The Chairman. It is proper for him to show — 
Mr. Brown. Pardon me. The testimony is that she didn’t 
live in his family ; for that reason I objected to it. 
Gov. Butler. I am going to show that she immediately be- 
came a member of his family, and he supported her. 
Mr. Brown. That is another matter. But whether she had 
means, how much money she had, where she lived in 1858, 
when this witness went to Tewksbury to take possession of the 
almshouse, it seems to me is an entirely irrelevant matter ; and 
the witness might well reply that he would object to answer- 
ing it. 
Gov. Butler. Well, when he does, it will be time enough to 
deal with that. The chairman divined the reason. I mean to 
show, what is true, — and I am far more kindly disposed toward 
Mr. Marsh, in going into his family matters, than I might be ; I 
want to show simply, not what made her absolutely poor, — be- 
cause I know what made her absolutely poor, — not why Davis 
went, but simply the fact that he went away; and I have not 
said what for, because it is not the fault of Mrs. Davis, nor is it 
the fault of Capt. Marsh. He went away, and left this family 
on his hands, and he had her to support; with such help, I have 
no doubt, as Mrs. Davis could give. And if it is insisted that 
she had much money, I can settle that in two minutes, that the 
amount was small. 
The Chairman, Will thq committee admit the question ? 2506 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Chester. I would like to have tlie question stated. 
Gov. Butler. The question is whether Mrs. Davis was de- 
pendent upon Capt. Marsh for support, substantially, at the time 
he was appointed to take charge of the almshouse. 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee ; that 
was not the question. 
The Chairman. The question was, what means she had. 
Mr Brown. In 1858, when Capt. Marsh took charge of the 
almshouse. 
Gov. Butler. It is only another form. 
The Chairman. It is the same thing. 
[The question was admitted, 4 to 3.] 
Q. Now, Capt. Marsh, I want to come to it. 1 want to 
treat you fairly. A. I am perfectly willing to answer. 
Q. Whether Mrs. Davis and her children were not substan- 
tially left upon your hands ? A. No, sir; they were not. 
Q. Didn’t you bring up the children? A. I took consid- 
erable interest in the oldest one — 
Q. Ettie — A. — because she showed a tendency to 
music. I assisted her in that. 
Q. Well, we will follow it right out. Ilow many years did 
she take lessons in music in Boston? A. I should think in the 
neighborhood of two years, or about two years. 
Q. Did she board at Tewksbury while doing so? A. A 
part of the time she did. 
Q. Didn’t she the most part of the time? A. Well, I 
wouldn’t say she didn’t; the majority of it. 
Q. And went regularly to Boston on the cars? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. You paid the expenses, I suppose? A. I did. 
Q. Now, the other daughter —. How long did Mrs. Davis 
live in Waltham? A. I think they lived there until 1870. 
Q. What doing there ? A. Keeping her house and living 
there. 
Q. Did the other daughter live there? A. The younger 
daughter was with her ; yes, sir. 
Q. Part of the time at Tewksbury ? A. Not very much. 
She used to come occasionally to see us. 
Q. Now, then, what was the name of that daughter? A. 
Gertrude Leonora. 
Q. What was she called for short? A. Gertie. 
Q. Now, then, Mrs. Hanson ? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2507 
Q. Rather, Mrs. Atwood, — was she married at that time? 
A. What time do you mean, sir ; 1870? 
Q. No, sir; 1 mean 1858. A. No, sir; she was married 
after that. 
Q. Did she go with you to Tewksbury? A. No, sir. 
Q. What time was she married? Where did she live, at the 
time you went to Tewksbury? A. She, 1 think, was living in 
Brooklyn, N. Y. 
Q. She went to Brooklyn? A. After she was married she 
lived a time in Waltham, a short time, and then went to Brook- 
lyn, N. Y. 
Q. Was she married before or after you went to Tewksbury? 
I understood you to say she was not married before. A. She 
was not married when I went to Tewksbury, but she was mar- 
ried at Tewksbury — I don’t mean at Tewksbury ; I mean at 
Waltham. 
Q. How long after you went to Tewksbury? A. Really, 
I couldn’t tell you. 
Q. Did she live with her sister or live with you? A. She 
lived with me, sir, until she was married, at Waltham. 
Q. Now, then, did she go to Brooklyn before she was mar- 
ried? A. No, sir. 
Q. Very well. Then she lived with you either at Waltham 
or Tewksbury until she was married? Now, how many chil- 
dren had she ? A. She has now three children — two sons 
and a daughter. 
Q. Did Mrs. Atwood ever live at Tewksbury? A. She 
has. 
' Q. Keep house, there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What years? A. I should think it was a part of the 
year 1869, but I am not quite sure. I think it is about that, 
sir. 
Q. Did she live in the institution at any time? A. At the 
institution? No, sir; she lived up in the neighborhood of Mr. 
Huntington’s ( ?). 
Q. I know. That was only about a year. Did she ever 
live at the institution? A. No, sir. 
Q. Ever live in your family there? A. At Tewksbury? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir; only as a visitor. 
Q. Now, your father went with you to Tewksbury? A. 
No, sir ; never was there. 
Q. When did he die, sir? A. He died in 1864. 2508 
CH A RITA BLE IN STITUTI ()N S. 
[Apr. 
Q. He was with you at Waltham? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Dependent on you for support? A. He was. 
Q. You supported him? A. I did. 
Q. Any of your wife’s relations with you? A. Where, 
sir ? 
Q. At Waltham? A. I think my wife’s sister, who after- 
wards was cook at Tewksbury, assisted my wife in her work for 
a year or two at Waltham. 
Q. Did she go with you to Tewksbury? A. No, sir. 
Q. Was she dependent upon her own exertion or upon you 
to support her? A. Well, sir, she was quite able to make her 
own living, always ; laid up a little money. 
Q. Mrs. Hanson — did she go with you to Tewksbury? A. 
She did. 
Q. Married there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Where was she married? A. Married in Waltham. 
Q. Married before she went? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did she go with }rou to Tewksbury — was she there? A. 
AVhat, at Tewksbury ? 
Q. Yes? A. No, sir ; she was married in Waltham before 
I went to Tewksbury. 
Q. Very well. How many children did she have? A. She 
has living three children; but she has had one or two that died. 
Q. Helen went with you to Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. She never was married? There went with you to Tewks- 
bury Helen and the two younger boj’s? A. That is what I 
took with me. I put both of the boys at Exeter at school, and 
Charles stayed there and fitted. • 
Q. One moment. Let us get this in the wa}r as I want it. 
Now, after you got to Tewksbury was Charles put to Exeter to 
school? A. He was. 
Q. And fitted for college? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the other bov next to him ? A. He went to Exeter 
at the same time. I put them both at Exeter at the same time. 
Q. And both fitted for college? A. No, sir; the other 
didn’t like, and came back. 
Q. He came back? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he go to college at all? A. No, sir; he spent his 
minority days in Sam. May & Co.’s hardware store; with 
Sam. May & Co. 
Q. Who was that? A. Adoniram, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2509 
Q. Was that Adoniram? A. They were both there, 
Adoniram and William, too. 
Q. Did William fit for college? A. No, sir. 
Q. And then we had Charles B.; he was fitted? A. He was 
fitted, entered college, and went through his junior year. 
Q. He was three years in college? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, we have had some testimony here, Capt. Marsh, 
that these young men’s washing w'as sent home to be done at 
Tewksbury ? A. Is that so? 
Q. Yes, that is so. How was that? A. What young men 
do you mean, Governor? 
Q. I mean those in college and those who were in Exeter, 
both? A. Well, I didn’t know that they had. 
Q. You didn’t know it. Did you know whether it was so 
or not? Because that is a thing that went along a good while? 
A. I should not think it was, but I won’t say certain. 
Q. Don’t you believe it was? A. No, sir; I don’t. 
Q. Why not? A. Because I paid their board at Exeter. 
Q. I know you paid their board, but paying board — A. 
I will tell you what I think ; because I think it would have cost 
as much to send it back and forward as to have it done in 
Exeter. 
Q. So do I. But if you have a great deal of coal over the 
railroad they sometimes give you free passes ? A. What, sir ? 
Q. Sometimes railroads, where you do a great deal of busi- 
ness over them, give free passes to customers? A. Well, sir, 
I was not that fortunate. 
Q. You were not? Then we won’t go into that any further. 
The only reason why it was not done, why you don’t believe it 
was done, is because the cost would have been more than to have 
paid for the washing? A. Well, sir, I think I should have 
known it if it had been so. 
Q. Didn’t you know it ? A. I did not. 
Q. They didn’t let you know much about what was going 
on? A. I guess they did. 
Q. What? A. I guess they did. 
Q. They didn’t let you know that ? A. They couldn’t if 
they didn’t do it. 
Q. But there are people who swear they did the work. Well, 
now then, who of your grandchildren was fitted for college at 
Exeter? A. Who fitted for college? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. Two of them. 2510 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Which were they — Mrs. Davis’s or Mrs. Atwood’s? A. 
I said, yesterday, there wasn’t any Davis boy. There were two 
Atwood bo}rs, two brothers. 
Q. And they fitted for college and have been in college and 
graduated? A. One is to graduate this week — to-morrow. 
Q. Now, then, let us go to another matter. Mr. Atwood, for 
some good cause, left Mrs. Atwood — or some bad cause — to 
take care of herself? A. I don’t know as I understand you. 
Q. Mr. Atwood left Mrs. Atwood soon after, not a great 
while after marriage? A. Did he? I didn’t know it. 
Q. Didn’t he? A. I was not aware of it. 
Q. Where is he now? A. Well, sir, he has been dead a 
good many years. 
Q. What time did he die? A. I could not tell you the year 
he died. I was at the funeral. He died at his brother’s house, 
in Portland. 
Q. Was he living in Portland at that time? A. Yes, sir; 
he had been for some time. If you want the facts in the case, 
he was an intemperate man, Governor. 
Q. I didn’t care to bring that out; I only wanted to show 
that he left your daughter on your hands, substantially. A 
That is it, exactly. 
Q. I was trying to get at it as easy as I could ; I know all 
these facts. A. Well, sir, so do I; I am perfectly willing if you 
want them brought out. 
Q. I didn’t care to bring it out. You are not responsible for 
his habits.. I only wanted the fact that 3rou had these people on 
your hands. Well, he didn’t leave any money, I take it? A. 
Not that I know of. 
Q. Then this fitting out at Exeter and educating in Harvard 
has been your work of kindness towards your grandchildren ? A. 
I have spent my life, thus far, and my earnings in taking care 
of my family, Governor — father and mother, and any that 
needed my help. 
Q. That is exactly what I wanted to ascertain. A. I have 
told you, freely. 
Q. Yres, very freely. Was vour mother — a portion of the 
time did you have her to support, too? A. I did, a few years 
before she died. I assisted my father and mother in Exeter. 
That was before I went to Tewksbury, however. 
Q. Well, sir, I think we have got about it. And you also 
brought up those girls ? A. 1 brought up the Atwood girl. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2511 
Q. And the Davis girl? A. No, sir; her mother took care 
of her. 
Q. Didn’t you aid any? A. I might, a very little; but 
small, sir. 
Q. You did something? I believe, now, we have got the 
whole? A. I would say that while my father lived, after I went 
to Waltham, and left Waltham, myself and family, for Tewks- 
bury, my father boarded with Mrs. Davis and I paid his board. 
Q. And your mother, too ? A. My mother died in 1851. 
My father lived in my family for thirteen years. 
Q. Now, Capt. Marsh, did you write — did you, yourself, 
compose and write these reports, so far as they are signed by 
Thomas J. Marsh ? A. They are my reports. 
Q. I didn’t ask that. Will you answer my question? Did 
you, yourself, compose and write these reports? A. Not all of 
them ; some I did entire, and some I did not. 
Q. Pick out one you did entire. A. One l did what? 
Q. Entire. A. There are several there. 
Q. Well, if there are several, it will be easier to pick them 
out? A. [Referring to the annual reports of the institution.] 
I think there are two bound together, here, somewhere. My 
first report I was looking after. [Selecting the report of 1858.] 
That is my first one. 
Q. You wrote this one, did you? A. Yes, sir ; I wrote that 
one. 
Q. Give us another. 1859. A. That is 1858, is it not? 
Q. Yes ; October, 1858. Then we have got 1858. Have you 
got 1859 there, sir? Did you write that, sir? A. Well, there 
is not much in that; I wrote that while the trustees or inspectors 
were together. 
Q. I have no doubt. Any other? A. Oh, I wrote the 
body of a good many of them, Governor. 
Q. Well, we will see about the body of a good many of 
them? A. You see them here. 
Q. I want to call your attention to these three. Give us 
any more. Because I observed a very great peculiarity in 
your examination on these reports, and I want to ascertain ? 
A. There is scarcely a report here that I have not written more 
or less of. There are some corrections. I didn’t never set 
myself up to be a scholar ; I hadn’t the opportunities. 
Q. Pardon me ; I am not asking you that; it is not your 
fault. 1 only want to get at the fact? A. Well, the fact is 2512 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that in the main the substance of the reports was mine — my 
suggestions. 
Q. Well, whether the suggestions were yours or not, I want 
to know whether you composed and wrote tiie reports? A. 
Well, some of them my son Charles assisted me on. He is a 
good deal better scholar than I am. I will tell you. I have 
usually sat down and taken paper and pencil, or pen, or what- 
ever it might be, and written just what I wanted to say, as near 
as I could get at it. Then I have had it corrected. 
Q. Well, you have had it written out? A. I have written 
almost every one of these reports ; I mean I have written what 
I wanted to say. 
Q. What you wanted said in them ; but the composition of 
the reports was left to the hands of Charles? A. Well, in 
part. 
Q. And to Thomas? A. Somebody else. 
Q. Somebody else? Who else, besides Charles? A. 
Well, anybody I could get hold of for the time being that 1 
thought was a better scholar than I was to put them into shape. 
Q. Did the doctors ever write them ? A. I don’t remem- 
ber ; he may have done so. 
Q. The doctors wrote some of them, didn’t the}"? A. I 
don’t remember. 
. Q. Why I ask }tou is that we have spent a whole day asking 
what you meant by such language? A. Yes, sir ; and I told 
you as near as I could. 
Q. I know, and I saw that you were troubled a little —A. 
Not much. The only trouble 1 felt about it was the thought 
what suggested it to my mind. 
Q. You mean for the use of that language. Now I want to 
take one in 1874 which I looked at at the time, I remember. 
Why I thought somebody else must have written these reports 
was this : that you were asked what you meant by this language. 
This is the language of the report: — 
“We are still receiving almost every week troublesome cases of 
delirium tremens, and I would again call your attention to the fact 
that we have no suitable place for confining or restraining them. I 
am satisfied that some improvement in the quarters for this class 
should be made as soon as practicable.” 
That was printed, and then the table which was printed at 
the same time showing the causes of death, the whole number, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2513 
the sex, the mental condition, the number in each month, and 
the ages of those who have died in the Tewksbury state alms- 
house from October 1 to September 30, also the whole number 
since the opening of the institution, shows that there have been 
two cases of delirium tremens? A. Cases of death? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. Well, perhaps they didn’t all die that 
became afflicted. 
Q. But I don’t find an}’ cases among those diseases of delir- 
ium tremens except those? A. I understand, Governor, that 
that is not made by myself; that is the doctor’s report. 
Q. I wanted to get at the discrepancy. He puts down the 
cause of death ? A. He would not say anything that I know 
of about their being admitted for delirium tremens. 
Q. No, he does not. A. They might recover from that, 
and probably did ; but we had a good many cases. 
Q. And he also don’t put down that among the diseases 
they had independent of the cause of death, that I can find? 
A I don’t know sir; that is the doctor’s report and 1 am not 
responsible for that. 
Q. It is not of any consequence except to show the discrep- 
ancy between the language of the reports; and therefore I 
didn’t believe you made it. Then, all this fine writing we 
have in these reports, is not yours but belongs to somebody else? 
A. No, sir ; I don’t say any such thing. I expect I have writ- 
ten some good things there. 
Q. Well, there are attempts here to quite a rhetorical style. 
A. Is there? 
Q. Yes. That is not yours, for the reason you have stated. 
Now, Mr. Marsh, will you tell me whether you have always 
given — whether you gave, in 1862, good wholesome food to 
the people in the almshouse? A. My purchases will show 
what the supplies were. 
Q. Pardon me ; they will show what the supplies were, but 
not what the quality was. A. I have always bought the best 
of the kind. 
Q. Will you answer my question? A. I will try, if I can 
remember what it is. 
Q. Didn’t you hear it? In 1862, did you furnish good 
wholesome and sufficient food to the people in the almshouse? 
A. I did the best I could with the means I had to do it 
with. 2514 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Didn’t you have means enough? A No, sir; never 
have a 3rear I have been there. 
Q. Have you ever, in all these reports — I see 3011 ask for 
barns, silos, tanks, buildings and water; has there ever been 
any complaint in all these reports during all these years to the 
legislature that you hadn’t money enough for food ; if so, won’t 
you sa3’ which report it is in? A. Those complaints have been 
made either before the finance committee — 
Q. Now, understand 1113’ question and answer it. Did you 
ever make complaint in all of these voluminous reports, during 
the whole time, that the legislature hadn’t given you sufficient 
money for food? A. I think there is in one of them. 
Q Which one? A. I could not tell you, sir; but I am 
quite sure there is in one of them—the only time T remember 
I ever did. 
Q. When was that? A. I cannot tell you the 3Tear, Gov- 
ernor. 
Q. Well, about how-long ago? A. It is useless for me to 
attempt to remember. It is there sometime. If I had time 
enough I could find it. 
Q. Take 3’our own time by-and-b3q don’t stop now\ Then, 
with one exception, although you now swear you have never 
had mone3’ enough for food, 3Tou have never complained, in one 
of your reports, that enough for food was not given? A. 
I have done that, as I said, before the finance committee. 
Q. But w-hile you put silos and piggeries and other matters 
in your reports, why not put the very vital thing — food — in 
3Tour complaint? A. I said this — 
Q. Answer my question. Stop a moment. It is not when. 
Answer my question. You complained, and asked the legisla- 
ture in your printed reports for money to build piggeries, for 
money for paving, for 1001103’ f°r barns, for money for silos, for 
for money for reservoirs; and 3’ou never asked for any money 
for food in your report? A. Yes. I don’t know that I speci- 
fied food, but I asked for money for running expenses. 
Q. It, is true that 3’ou never did ask for money for food, is it 
not? A. I think 3x111 will find it once. 
Q. Well, except once? A. Yes. And I told 3*011 the rea- 
son I didn’t put it in the report. 
Q. And you swear here to this committee that 3*011 never 
have had, ever since 3*ou have been there, mone3* enough for 
food? A. I sa3* this, that the committee 011 finance had heard 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2515 
my statement arid had heard the statement of the trustees. 
Governor ; they had been — 
Q. Stop a minute. Stop a minute. I won’t have what you 
and the finance committee have said? A. And the trustees — 
Q. Neither you nor the trustees. I am upon what was done 
in the recognized manner, which we spent two days in going 
over here? A. Yes, sir 
Q. Now, sir, you have now testified that you haven’t asked 
for food in these reports, except in one instance? A. I said 1 
didn’t remember more than one instance. 
Q. Do you believe you have in more than one instance ? 
A. I would not say that I had. 
Q. Very well. And yet you come here, and when I ask you 
if you supplied good food to the people in the almshouse, you 
said you had, according to the means you had ; and you had 
never had means enough ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well, we will leave it there if choose. Now, 
sir, with the exception of barns and improvement on buildings 
haven’t }Tour requests, all the requests in these reports, been 
granted? A. No, sir. 
Q. Such as what that has not been? A. I named one 37es- 
terday — the high-service water reservoir. 
Q. Well, high-service reservoir? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, I didn’t want to make a long stor3r of it, so I said 
improvements on buildings, or something of that kind. What 
else has been refused to you b)7 the legislature except that it 
didn’t go in for silos, on the first time trying, barn, and improve- 
ments on buildings? A. I think the}7 did go for the silos the 
first time trying. 
Q. Yes, 3’ou got the silos out of that appropriation of six 
thousand dollars — and accompaniments. A. Fifty thousand 
dollars ? 
Q. Six? A. No, I guess not. 
Q. Oh, 3’es ; oh, yes. A. Oh, no. 
Q. Now7, with the exception of those classes of things, tell 
me what the legislature ever refused you? A. Well, they have 
usually cut down our appropriation. 
Q. Well, I agree to that. A. Our estimate. 
Q. Pardon me ; cut down 37our estimate ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you had those things in your estimate. Now, I 
say again — answer m37 question direct^7, Capt. Marsh, if 37ou 
will— A. I will try to. 2516 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. This is it: with the exception of the class of improve- 
ments that you were talking about, tell me what has been 
refused you by the legislature? A. The money that has been 
asked for to use — 
Q. Will you answer my question? A. I don’t know — 
Q. Now, answer it. With the exception of that sort of 
improvement about the place, tell me anything that you have 
asked the legislature that has been refused? A. I don’t know 
how to answer. I don’t know what you want, Governor ; if I 
did I would try to tell you. I asked this year, — our estimate 
asked for $95,000 and we got $90,000. Last year we had 
$93,000. You cut us down, this year, three thousand from last 
year ; and our estimate has been based every year, for quite a 
number of successive years, upon the expenditure of the pre- 
ceding year. 
Q. Well, now, you have undertaken to say what is not cor- 
rect when you say it— A. What is that? 
Q. Because you have got $93,500 this year. A. Will you 
allow me to say that $3,500 of it is a special appropriation. 
Q. I agree to that. A. I am talking about my running 
expenses. 
Q. Your running expenses; very well. If that has been 
done with the running expenses, have you ever called the atten- 
tion of the legislature, in reports the next year, that your run- 
ning expenses had been cut down and the money was not suf- 
ficient? A. In one instance, I remember. 
Q. And you cannot tell within ten years when that was? 
A. I would not undertake it, because it is a matter of record 
and T would rather search for it. 
Q. Now, sir, have you ever called for any attendance? 
Have you ever called their attention, in these reports, to the 
want of more help in the shape of attendance upon the insane? 
[Recess. Subsequently question read to the witness.] 
A. I don’t remember that I ever did. 
Q. Now, in regard to the building; did you not yourself 
recommend to have a building built and to have the insane 
brought there? A. I didn’t recommend that building. I told 
you, yesterday, I recommended a smaller one. 
Q. Well, didn’t you recommend that the insane should be 
brought to Tewksbury ? A. No, sir. 1883 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2517 
Q. Sure about tliat? A. Quite sure. 
Q. Didn’t you recommend to the legislature that the insane 
should be brought from the insane hospitals to Tewksbury, say- 
ing they could be cared for there at $52 a year, while they were 
costing $150, or somewhere thereabouts, in the insane hospitals? 
— Excuse me, just answer my question. A. I said, yester- 
day— 
Q. Leave out what you said, yesterday, and answer my 
question. A. I might have used that language. 
Q. Didn’t you recommend in so many words to the legisla- 
ture, the sending of these insane to Tewksbury? A. Those 
are my reports ; I recommended whatever you find in them. 
Q. Well, you did recommend it. Now,, didn’t you not only 
do that, but recommend it before the finance committee yourself? 
A. I don’t remember going before the finance committee at all 
on that, sir. 
Q. And, therefore, the insane were sent there; and the 
buildings were built to accommodate them, in sequence to your 
report? A. Well, I stated how the buildings came to be 
there. 
Q. Will you answer my question? A. Well, sir, I never 
got that impression. 
Q. What? A. I never got that impression. 
Q. You advised they should be brought there, and now you 
have no impression they were brought there on your advice. 
They were brought there? A. I could tell you just how that 
was done if I could be allowed. 
Q. I have no doubt, sir; but I want an answer to my ques- 
tion. A. I have given you the best answer I can, sir. 
Q. Very well. Now, Mr. Marsh, I shall be able to relieve 
you pretty soon. Up to what time did you burn — up to some 
time you burned rye aiid barley, and used it for coffee, did you ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Up to what time did you do that? A. I should prefer 
to refer to the purchase-book, because that will tell you when I 
began to buy coffee. I could not tell you, Governor, positively, 
without referring to the purchase-book. That will show. 
Q. Well, let us have the purchase-book. A. The bill- 
book. You have it here somewhere. [The book was sent 
for.] 
Q. I will pass from that a moment. Did you burn it in the 2518 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
institution, or buy it burned, or have it burned outside? A. 
The coffee, do you mean ? 
Q. I mean the grain. A. I think, when I first went there, 
it was bought — 
Q. Answer my question. When you used this burnt grain 
for coffee, did you burn it in the institution, or buy it burnt? 
A. We sometime began to burn it in the institution, I cannot 
tell when—because we had apparatus put in for burning it. 
Q. Apparatus put in for burning it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. About how many 3'ears was that after you went there? 
A. I should think eight or ten years. 
Q. Then, before, you burned it in the institution — A. 
Let me correct that; I don’t know but the burning apparatus 
was put in to burn coffee, — that I bought. 
Q. I am asking about — A. Burning the rye ? 
Q. Burning the lye or other grain. Will you answer my 
question and stop? A. I will try to. 
Q. Very well. Now, when was it? A. I am not sure 
that I ever burned an}’ rye in the institution. 
Q. What? A. I am not sure that 1 ever burned any rye 
at the institution. 
Q. Did you burn any other grain? A. I am not sure that 
I did. I am rather of the opinion that I bought it all burnt. 
Q. One moment, sir. You bought the rye and grain all 
burnt, and brought it into the institution as prepared coffee. 
Under what name did that stand in the accounts? A. Well, 
I could pick out every one of them by seeing them ; I cannot 
tell you without. 
Q. Did it anywhere in your accounts appear as burnt rye, 
or burnt grain ? A. I am not sure that it does, sir. 
Q. Don’t 3’ou know that it don’t? A. No. 
Q. Well, we have had }’our bills examined for a good man)’ 
years. A. Yes ; I know it. 
Q. Both by your expert and ours, and they have made re- 
ports. They have made no report of burnt grain an}’where. 
A. Well, we certainl}’ had it, Governor. 
Q. What? A. I don’t know; we may have burned some 
at our place ; I am not sure. 
Q. You don’t know whether you burned it there or not? 
A. I know we used it there. 
Q. Now, don’t it appear on }rour accounts as coffee, — on 
your oath ? A. Burnt rye would never be entered as coffee. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2519 
Q. I don’t know whether it was burnt rye or burnt other 
things ; don’t those burnt preparations, pease, beans, acorns — 
don’t those burnt preparations, whatever they were, appear as 
coffee on your accounts? A. I can tell you better if you show 
me the account. He lias gone to get it. 
Q. What? A. I can pick them all out. 
Q. When you first began to use coffee did you buy the green 
kernel and have apparatus putin for burning it? A. Not at 
the first we did not. 
Q. When you first began to use coffee? A. We didn’t; 
but we did pretty soon afterwards. 
Q. B}t “pretty soon” you mean within a year? A. I 
should think so. 
Q. Then when you first began to buy coffee you bought the 
green berry and had apparatus put in for burning it. How long 
was that apparatus used? A. That was used until the new 
laundry was built and then the power was removed. 
Q. What? A. The power for turning. 
Q. Then you bought it and had it burned outside ? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Can you tell me under what name that coffee appeared — 
that preparation appeared ? Or I will go back. In what form of 
packages did that burnt and ground stuff come that was used 
for colfee? A. Well, if we burned it in the institution it 
would come in barrels and boxes. It would be pretty to 
be in that if we bought it. 
A. I am not asking about likelihoods. I am not asking if 
you did this or that what would have happened ; I am ask- 
ing exactly what you did. Now, sir, answer my question. A. 
My books will show. 
Q. They won’t show this? A. They' will show everything 
I bought. 
Q. Very like ; I am asking you now in what sort of pack- 
ages this burnt stuff which was used for coffee came in; 
whether donq up in bundles or packages—. A. Well, I 
bought some that came in barrels. I bought a Chicago make of 
coffee and used it for a time. 
Q. You bought at Chicago. Now, then, how much did you 
buy at Chicago? A. I could not tell; the books will tell. 
Q. A considerable quantity? A. 1 think they used it 
some months. 
Q. A considerable quantity? A. I think I had two or 2520 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apt. 
three shipments of, perhaps, three or four barrels at a time — 
perhaps four or five. 
Q. Now under what name was that stuff you bought at 
Chicago entered upon the books? A. I don’t think I can 
recollect. I can tell it if I see the name on the book. I think it 
was called coffee. 
Q. Don’t you know it was called coffee ? A. Some name ; 
something they designated as their peculiar brand. 
Q. Some brand of coffee? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And it will appear on the books as coffee? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And to any one examining the books it would have to 
be taken as coffee? A. Yes, sir; it is so written. 
Q. It Avas bought as coffee, used for coffee, called coffee, paid 
for as coffee, and the whole thing was a cheat, was it not? A. 
Well, sir, there is a great many people using it noAv ; the}' use 
it in Boston now. 
Q. I have no doubt. There are other cheats beside this. 1 
am only asking about what this was, leaving out other people. 
A. It was very highly recommended to us. 
Q. I don’t ask its recommendation ? A. — By institutions. 
Q. I don’t ask recommendations ; did you tell the inmates 
they Avere drinking rye ? A. If any was prepared they always 
saw it prepared there. 
Q. Prepared what? A. Ground r}Te. 
Q. Now, you are telling me again, if there was such a thing 
what you did. You have now told me on your oath — and, if 
you are to be believed, it is true—that there was a quantity of 
ground-up stuff, ground out in Chicago — they don’t import 
much coffee in Chicago from the Northwest — that there was a 
lot of stuff ground up and brought there as coffee, and that that 
was grain? A. No, sir ; I don’t say it Avas grain, for I don’t 
know what it was. 
Q. Then it might not even haA'e been as good as grain. 
Then }'ou bought something to give to these people and you 
didn’t know what it was? A. I had recommendations. 
Q. Leave out your recommendations, please. Whatever it 
was, it was not coffee, although it appeared on the books and 
everywhere else as coffee? A. It Avas called coffee. 
Q. Down to how late did you use any of this prepared stuff? 
A. It must have been seAreral years, I should think. I was 
using some of it, I remember, when Dr. Lathrop first came. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2521 
Q. That don’t help me any. I want it by the almanac. I 
want simply the date? A. Well, suppose you call it 1876. 
I think it was in that neighborhood. 
Q. Then, did you begin using coffee for the inmates — did 
you until after Dr. Lathrop got there? A. Do you mean the 
Chicago coffee, sir? 
Q. Did you begin using honest coffee until after Dr, La- 
throp got there? A. I think it was about that time. 
Q. Didn’t you continue it later than that? A. Well, sir, 
wherever you can find a purchase of Rio coffee on the books — 
Q. I don’t ask about Rio coffee; didn't you continue doing 
it later than that? A. Well, I don’t think it was much, and I 
don’t know as it was any. What made me fix that, Governor. 
was — 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care what made you fix it. 
Q. Very well; now your man has been called here, your 
cook, to swear, — and made the committee drink some, — to 
swear — A. He didn’t hurt them, I guess. 
Q. To swear that the}’ have always used the same grade of 
coffee ever since he has been there. 
Mr. Brown. 1 beg your pardon; he didn’t so swear. He 
said they had for the last five years. 
Gov. Butler. That they used the same grade of coffee since 
he had been there. 
Mr. Brown. I should like to have yon point that out. 
The Witness. That can’t be. 
Gov. Butler. That can’t be ; that is all I want. I will 
find out from the record what he testified to. Now, then, give 
me ’74 and ’75 and let us see. I find in ’75 [referring to the 
auditor’s report] that there was $1,213.91 worth of coffee bought 
for that institution; and I find in ’76 $1,530 worth of coffee, 
and I don’t find anything about burnt rye, nor Chicago coffee, 
nor anything else there. Now, sir [to Mr. Brown], will you let 
me have the tables for 1874-5, whicii were put in here? 
Mr. Brown. They are not here ; but they are in the printed 
report. 
The Chairman. Page 2263. 
Gov. Butler. [Examining the record.] But these are not 
the distinguishing tables. I find here in 1875, — I find 3,800 
pounds of coffee. Now, here is the list of ’73 ; I want to see 
where this Chicago stuff came into this list. Jt was not flour, 
nor corn, nor middlings, nor rye, nor shorts, nor oats, nor ha}’, 2522 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
nor sugar, nor tea ; and 537 pounds of coffee, — that is for the 
superintendent’s and officers’ table, I take it? A. Well, sir, 
we have been in the habit of using the same coffee. 
Q. The same coffee? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Been in the habit of using the same coffee alwa}’s? A. 
Asa rule. 
Q. As a rule you use that; very well. Then, if it is the 
same coffee, it must have been very weak, for there is onty 537 
pounds to go through the whole year. Now, do you believe, 
Capt. Marsh, that that item includes the Chicago stuff? A. I 
should think there was some Chicago coffee. 
Q. Do 3rou think that that item includes that? A. Well, 
sir, I don’t know about these reports. I said before, Governor, 
that my book, 1113- purchase-book, will show the articles pur- 
chased, of whom purchased, and what was paid for them. 
Q. Well, I am not upon that now; I am upon what was 
used. Now, then, these various groceries were only Si 17 ; and 
pease and beans, salt fish, fresh fish, molasses, oatmeal, rice, 
buckwheat and various things, — the Chicago stuff don’t come 
in there. Now, we will run right back through ; that is’72 ; ’73, 
471 pounds of coffee; ’74, 411 pounds of coffee ; ’75 came that 
large amount. Now’, running back eveiy year to ’70, we find 
287 pounds, in ’71, of coffee, and these small amounts, which 
.naturally went to the other table, running back for the ten years. 
In ’73 we find 471 pounds of coffee, by your expert’s table, and, 
in the auditor’s report, we find 944 pounds. 
Mr. Brown. The3r represent different years, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no, no, no ; the same 3Tear. 
Mr. Brown. But one is the almshouse 3’ear and the other is 
the fiscal year. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; I beg your pardon. 
Mr. Brown. I think 3Tou will find that is so. The expert 
testified that he commenced the first of October in each 3Tear 
and took three months in one year and nine months in the next 
year for purposes of computation. It is otherwise, I think, in 
the auditor’s report. 
Gov. Butler. Now let’s have it fixed; which wmy I don’t 
care. The auditor’s, I suppose, to be the fiscal year. 
Mr. Brown. I understand it to be the fiscal 3Tear. 
Gov. Butler. And this man takes a 3rear, if I understand it; 
3’our expert? 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2523 
Gov. Butler. Very good ; then I am content to have it that 
way. Then, with three months over they didn’t have only 471 
pounds of coffee by that, and, in the other report, which covers 
the year, they had 944 pounds, and you will find such discrep- 
ancies running all through. 
The Witness. What do you call it, Governor ; deviltry? 
Gov. Butler. I said discrepancies, sir. 
The Witness. I thought you said deviltry ; pardon me. 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubt that is what is in your 
thought. 
The Witness. I thought you said so. 
Gov. Butler. No, I didn’t; I said discrepancy; you knew 
what it ought to be called. 
The Witness. No, I didn’t. 
Mr. Brown. He happened to be looking at you and got an 
impression, that is all. 
Gov. Butler. Which last is a very impertinent, improper 
and undignified remark. 
Mr. Brown. That is what I thought when you said they 
stole like the devil. 
Gov. Butler. I was speaking, not to you ; I was not speak- 
ing of you; I was not endeavoring to cast a mean, miserable, 
malignant sneer at you. I am not to be treated this way unless 
the committee by vote sanction it. 
The Chairman. Go on with the examination, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I don’t know as I shall, till I get 
this thing settled. I have been attacked this morning, in the 
first place, about what I had done and hadn’t done. Now, 
when I had used perfectly proper language to the witness and 
to everybody else, then Mr. Brown chose to say that the witness 
made a mistake and got the impression of deviltry by looking at 
me. If the committee permit such things they will have to do it 
without my presence after a while, because I will be protected 
somehow. 
The Chairman. These squabbles between counsel we can- 
not control; we have listened to them all the way. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, you can control, or you should be able 
to control them. 
The Chairman. I think it is about an equal thing. 
Gov. Butler. How, sir? 
The Chairman. I think it is about an equal thing. 2524 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. I haven’t asked your opinion, sir; it is 
neither valuable — 
The Chairman. You may go on with the investigation. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me; I am not to be insulted by the 
pseudo chairman. 
The Chairman. You are insulting the pseudo chairman, 
now. 
Gov. Butler. Neither I do not propose in this wajT to be 
dealt with ; I should not in any court; no, sir. 
The Chairman. I think you had better pursue the investi- 
gation. 
Gov. Butler. And to be told that “ in your opinion ” is 
another insult. 
The Chairman. A good many things have passed back and 
forth between the counsel which, it seems to me, had better have 
been left out; a great many remarks made by each one. 
Gov. Butler. I think so, sir. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Gov. Butler. I think so; and whenever I make a remark 
of that sort to Mr. Brown, you have a right to interfere with me 
and I wish 3*011 would. 
The Chairman. We haven’t attempted — 
Gov. Butler. And I don’t propose to have these remarks 
made to me. 
The Chairman. We haven’t attempted to interfere with these 
colloquies between counsel; we haven’t interfered : we haven’t 
stopped them. It might be well — 
Gov. Butler. Whenever these colloquies descend to per- 
sonalities to the counsel, stop them. That is what I want 3*011 
to do. Then I am ready to be stopped whenever I do it. 
The Chairman. You ma3* go on. 
Mr. Brown. I want simpty to say, that, according to my 
best judgment, I have been faying to keep up with His Excel- 
lenc3*. If be thinks I have caught up with him, I am willing to 
stop. 
The Chairman. I don’t think it is worth while to pursue 
this. 
Gov. Butler. There is another insult. 
The Chairman. Go on with the investigation, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Perhaps you will put that in, Mr. Chairman, 
and think that is about even. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2525 
The Chairman. I think you had better proceed with the in- 
vestigation. 
Gov. Butler. I will, when I can do it properly and in order, 
without being insulted, and the insult sustained by the chair- 
man, — thank God, not by the committee. 
The Chairman. I take it the committee sustains the chair- 
man . 
Mr. Murphy. I beg pardon, Mr. Chairman; I for one do 
not sustain the chairman. 
The Chairman. I will put it to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. I will have it put to the committee. 
The Chairman. What is the question,—whether the investi- 
gation shall proceed ? 
Gov.' Butler No ; it is not the question, and you know it. 
The Chairman. What is the question ? 
Gov. Butler. I will go on, sir, and take care of myself the 
next time, too. 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, what class of flour did you buy in ’62? 
A. ’62? 
Q. ’62 ; yes, sir; did you buy a lower grade or a higher 
grade than in ’82 for the inmates ? A. I bought a better grade 
in ’82 than I did in ’62. 
Q. Why did you buy a better grade in ’82 of flour than in 
’62? A. We had found by experience that a better flour, of 
course, made a better bread, and a better bread would be more 
nearly eaten up, so it was more economical to furnish a better 
bread. 
Q. And, therefore, it would be cheaper to buy a better flour 
than to buy the grade that you were using in ’62, because it 
could be more economically used? A. Yes, sir; there would 
be more waste in the cheaper flour. 
Q. Yes, more waste in the cheaper flour ; therefore, the fact 
of paying more money for the flour in ’82 than in ’62 would 
really be an economy, wouldn’t it? A. I don’t know as that is 
the fact; I don’t know but it was, —’62, the war year. 
Q. Pardon me; the war year would not alter the grade of 
flour ? A. No, sir ; but it might the price. 
Q. Yes; it might the price. But the fact of buying a 
cheaper grade of flour, — understand my question, — a higher 
grade of flour in ’82 would really be a matter of economy, 
wouldn’t it? A. I should so look at it; yes, sir. 
Q. And if you did buy a higher grade in ’82 than you did in 2526 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
’62, it was as a matter of economy? A. Yes, sir; there 
wouldn’t be so much waste. 
Q. Wouldn’t be so much waste; and, therefore, we should 
expect a better result in the economy of the institution from 
such action, shouldn’t we? A. So far as that was concerned. 
Q. So far as that was concerned. Well, the flour is the 
principal article, isn’t it? A. It is one of the heavy articles. 
Q. Isn’t it the principal one of consumption, in the way of 
food? A. Perhaps it is. 
Q. Have }*ou been there twenty years without finding out 
whether it is or not? A. I think it is. 
Q. Why didn’t you answer at once that it was when I asked 
you? A. Well, sir, I would like to refer to the books, because 
that tells the story better than I can tell it. 
Q. Don’t you know? Have you been there for twenty years 
and not know what the principal, what the heaviest article of 
consumption for food is ? A. I have no doubt it is flour, sir. 
Q. Having no doubt of it, wh}T did you evade the question 
so many times? A. I didn’t. 
Q. Now, then, did you have the same grade of meat in ’62 
that you did in ’82 ? A. No, sir ; I should think we had been 
using better meat. It cost more, certainly. 
Q. What? A. It cost more. 
Q. Leave out the cost, now. You see I use “ grade ” every 
time ; price don’t alter the grade. I want to know if you have 
been using a better grade ? A. We have. 
Q. Why use a better grade if you had a good one in ’62 ? 
A. I don’t know as we had so good ; I don’t think we could 
have had so good in ’62. 
Q. Why not? A. Because we didn’t the price for it. 
Q. You didn’t pay the price for it. When did 3*011 change 
from molasses to sugar for sweetening? A. I can’t tell you, 
precisely, Governor. 
Q. About when? A. I can’t tell, very certain; it was quite 
a good man}' years since. 
Q. Did you buy the highest grade of molasses when you 
bought that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Bought a low grade of molasses ? A. Bought a medium. 
Q. Bought a medium grade of molasses, and you ought to 
have paid, then, in ’62, and up to the time you stopped using 
molasses, the medium grade price, oughtn’t you? A. The 
books will show what I paid. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2527 
Q. I know ; but I am now upon what you ought to have paid. 
Well, the books will show, sir, and I am going to have them 
carefully examined upon that matter. A. I am glad of it. 
Q. But I am asking you. A. Yes ; well, why do you ask 
me these questions, if you propose to show by the books, Gov- 
ernor? Do you want to catch me in an untruth? 
Q. I will tell you wh}T, — because I am going to be very 
frank with you. A. Yes. 
Q. The books don’t always show what the grade is ; the}' 
only show that you bought molasses. A. Yes. 
Q. Or sugar; and all we know is that it is sugar or molasses. 
Well, molasses may be three or four things— A. Yes. Now, 
if there is any question about a lot of goods, the men I traded 
with are living, most of them, they can be called; they can 
vouch for them, for the quality and the price. You can call all 
of them, if you wish to. 
Q. Thank }rou ; I can call whom I please ; I know that. A. 
Yes ; I said “ if you wish to.” 
Q. I am asking what grades you purchased. A. I think — 
Q. Now, what grade of coffee did you purchase? A. When 
I purchased — 
Q. I mean when you got the coffee; I don’t mean this stuff. 
A. Yes; my coffee has been, in the main, the Rio coffee, and 
it has been at the market price at the time being, whatever it 
was ; been a good, fair article. 
Q. There have been different grades of Rio? A. I always 
intended to have a good, fair article, because I used it for 
myself and officers. 
Q. You sure about that? A. I am pretty sure about that, 
Governor. 
Q. Who used the Java coffee that appears on the bills? A. 
There can’t be a great deal there, of late years. 
Q. Why not? A. Because I haven’t bought it. 
Q. Pretty sure about that? A. Pretty sure ; of late years. 
Q. Well, by “ late years ” you mean that when you changed 
from the Chicago coffee down to Rio, from that time you used 
this same coffee yourself? A. I mean substantially that. 
There may have been some Java ; there ma}r have been some 
other brand ; I don’t remember, particularly. 
Q. Well, but don’t you know that you have bought, all 
through your books, a few hundred pounds, more or less, of a 
better grade of coffee ? A. All through the books ? 2528 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. All through; yes. A. Well, I know I have not for 
several years, sir. 
Q. Well, let us see ; do you mean to sa}' that there hasn’t 
been any Java coffee in your house for several years? How 
many do you mean b}r “ several ”? A. Well, since I used the 
Rio coffee. 
Q. And that you think, went back to ’76? A. I am not 
quite sure about that; I should rather refer to the books. 
Q. Well, we find that, how it is. A. Yes. 
Q. And where there was a better grade it was for your table, 
wasn’t it? A. I should think pretty likely. 
Q. You have no doubt about it,, have you ? A. I have not, 
— for mine and the officers’. 
Q. Yes ; yours and the officers’. I am emboldened to ask 
these questions, because, as I understand the cook, the coffee 
was made in another kitchen for the officers’ table? A. ft 
was. 
Q. Now, about the tea, sir? A. About what? 
Q. About the tea; did you use a high grade of tea? A. 
For the inmates or for the officers? 
Q. For the inmates? A. We used an Oolong tea and a 
Japan. Usually they were mixed ; not always; but a mixed 
tea. 
Q. For the inmates ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Used a Japan tea? A. Well, a mixture of Japan. 
Q. And Oolong? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. About half and half? A. That was intended to be ; 
yes, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, you were asked, yesterday, about some special 
matters to which I want to call your attention. You told us, if 
I remember, that the five dollars that was found for a calf was 
not Mr. Pillsbury’s calf at all? A. Yes. 
Q. That was another man’s calf; and that was rightly done? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Then, you did sell a calf to Mr. Pillsbury for $10 ? A. 
I did. 
Q. And put the money where ? A. I have got it now, I 
told you. 
Q. You have got it now ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What entry or memorandum of the payment of that 
money is on any books? A. I have it on a private memoran- 
dum of m}r own. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2529 
Q. Have you got the same mone}', precisely ? A. Perhaps 
not. • 
Q. What? A. Perhaps not. 
Q. Well, don’t you know you haven’t? A. I should think 
likely. 
Q. Now, where does it appear upon any of the books of the 
institution, that the State property has been, — that that piece 
of State property has been sold, and the money put into your 
pocket? A. I didn’t say it was in my pocket. I said 1 had 
the money and was ready to account for it. 
Q Where is it? A. Well, I will produce it whenever they 
make a settlement. 
Q. Let us see; when was this calf sold? A. Well, sir, 
the story about that calf is a little amusing. 
Q. I don’t ask, — yes, it is amusing, but I am not going in- 
to the amusement part now; I am at the time of it? A. It 
was not a calf; it was a pig. 
Q. Very well; let it be a pig, then ; I am not particular. I 
am talking about the time. A. When it was taken away? 
Q, Yes ; when it was sold. A. Well, sir, the man had had 
the pig quite a while before I sold it. 
Q. Will }’ou answer my question? A. I will try to. 
Q. When was it sold? A. My impression is it was paid 
for, if that is what you mean, — 
Q. I am talking with a man that has been selling pigs and 
calves for twenty years; when was it sold? A. Well, I lent 
the pig, to begin with. 
Q. I don’t ask you that. A. Well, sir, I want to tell you. 
Q. I am asking you a simple question, sir, about an embez- 
zlement of money of the Commonwealth. A. No such thing, 
sir ; no such thing. 
Q. I want to know when that pig was sold? A. Well 
sir, I said I lent the pig, to begin with. 
Q. I don’t ask you that. A. Well, I told you. 
Gov. Butler. I call upon the committee to have an answer 
to my question. 
The Chairman. Answer the question. 
The Witness. I asked the governor if he wanted to know, 
— if he called it selling the pig at the time it was paid for. 
Gov. Butler. I am not here to bandy words with a man who 
has got the Commonwealth’s money in his pocket. 
Mr. Brown. The question when that sale was completed is 2530 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
purely a question of law, which this committee can decide when 
the}r have heard all the facts, ft seems to me it is perfectly 
proper for this witness to tell us the facts. If he should say 
the sale took place when he delivered the pig, or when the 
period expired for which the pig was lent, or something of that 
sort, of course we should all object to that and say the pig 
was not sold then. I suppose the pig was sold when he had 
been delivered upon a contract for a sale, and had been paid 
for. 
The Chairman. I think he should answer the question, and 
then, if he wants to explain it, I take it he will be allowed to. 
Gov. Butler. I have no objection. I want to know when 
it was sold ; I only want the question of time. 
Q. When was the pig sold, sir; answer the question. A. 
I will call it January. 
Q. What year? A. This very last one. 
Q. What? A. The very last one. 
Q. The very last one ? A. The very last January, 
Q. When was the money paid? A. Well, I call the pig 
sold when the money was paid. 
Q. When was the money paid? A. Well, I should say in 
January. 
Q. Mr. Pillsbury has given us another date. And have 
you, since that pig was sold, paid in any money on account of 
articles sold into the treasury? A. No, sir; I told you yes- 
terday I had not. 
Q. Made no payment on account of any article? A. No 
article, sir, sold. 
Q. What? A. No article sold. 
Q. No article sold. Have you made any payment of money 
received, made any payment into the treasury since the first 
day of January of any moneys received on account of Tewks- 
bury? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. You have paid none. Where is that private account on 
which this money appears? A. On the cash account. 
Q. On whose cash-book? A. The ones that you have 
here. 
Q. What, the ten dollars? A. Oh, no ; not that. 
Q. What cash-book does it appear upon, sir? A. It does 
not appear upon any cash-book till I pay it. 
Q. But, pardon me, why shouldn’t it appear in the cash-book 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2531 
when you receive it? A. We have been in the habit of using 
any money received whenever we have had occasion to use it, 
and always accounting for the money at a given time. 
Q. You have been in the habit of using any money received 
whenever you chose and accounting for it when it was called 
for? A. No, sir; we always have a regular time to account 
for it. 
Q. Had a regular time; we will see about that. Now, 
then, upon what book was the fact entered that you had got 
that money? A. I said just now, in a book of my own; a 
private book of ray own. 
Q. Where is that? A. I have it at home. 
Q. Is that your own private book ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How does it appear on your private book that the money 
belongs to the Commonwealth ? A. I don't think the private 
book shows it, but I know it. 
Q. Yes, but you know it. Now, is there any other way of 
the Commonwealth getting what belongs to it except from your 
memory? A. Perhaps there is not. 
Q. What? A. Perhaps not. 
Q. Well, is there; is there any other? A. • You told me 
yesterday you didn’t want me to pay it. 
Q. That isn’t in answer to my question ; answer my ques- 
tion. A. 1 can’t answer you how the money’s received — 
Q. No ; stick to this sum ; this is what I want. A. I am 
going to 
Q. Is there anyway, — this is a simple question, — except 
from your knowledge, personal knowledge, by which the Com- 
monwealth could know how to get that money? A. Well, I 
think the}' would in this case understand pretty well; it has 
been talked about considerably, and I have a private memo- 
randa of it. 
Q. Leaving out this investigation, then. A. Yes. 
Q. Is there any way for the Commonwealth to find out that 
you had that money, if you forgot it? A. Perhaps not. 
Q. Don’t you know there is not? A. I think my memo- 
randum-book would show it. 
Q. But it don’t show it is the Commonwealth’s money, you 
have already sworn; it would rather show it was yours, on 
your private cash account. A. “Cash received for pig” is 
the entry. 
Q. What? A. “ Cash received for pig” is the entry. 2532 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Precisely ; and that being on your private book would 
be prima facie evidence that it was 3rour own pig. A. No. 
Q. Now, then, I want to call your attention to this: had 
this been your habit of keeping the account of these articles 
sold? A. We have kept — 
Q. Leave out “ we.” Is this your habit of keeping account? 
A. Our habit has been to keep a cash-book — 
Q. Leave out “ our,” pardon me ; leave out “ our,” because 
that is 3-our private book and your own transaction. Is this 
your habit of keeping the account? A. My,—No, sir. 
Q. Of articles sold? A. What? 
Q. Of articles sold from the farm? A. For instance, a 
man comes along to-day and buys a pig; he pays me, or pays 
somebody else, and that is put on a slip of paper and put on 
the wire, and when the clerk comes to it, he will enter it upon 
the book. 
Q. Yes ; but what becomes of the mone}^; do you put the 
monejr on the wire? A. The money is always paid in. 
Q. Paid in to who? A. Paid into the treasury and a re- 
ceipt taken for it. 
Q. You mean paid into the treasuiy of the Commonwealth? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But where is that money paid to when the man pays it 
over who buys the pig, as in this case? What I want to know 
is, is this your habit of keeping accounts? If not, why was 
this thing done different from your usual habit? A. Some- 
body has it. Sometimes I have it, and sometimes my son has 
it. 
Q. And sometimes }Tour son has it? Yes, sir. 
Q. And their habit and yours, I suppose, is the same, to 
put it on their private account, and some time make up an ac- 
count of what ought to be paid into the treasury and pay it in? 
A. No, sir ; we always make up a true account. 
Q. I know ; I haven’t said it wasn’t true ; but make out an 
account? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And then the only voucher for the truth of that account 
would be your private books, which nobody would see? A. Is 
that so? 
Q. Isn’t it so? A. In this case it wouldn’t, certainly. 
Q. Why, because we have found it out here in the investi- 
gation? A. Yes. 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2533 
Q. But if we never had found it out? A. I guess you 
would have got the money all the same. 
Q. That is another thing ; that is another question, whether 
we should or not. Now, Captain Marsh, suppose you had died 
the da}r after, because you are an old man and liable to die, as 
we all are, — A. Yes. 
Q. How would the Commonwealth have found out about 
that money? A. They would have found it on my memo- 
randa. 
Q. But they would have found it on your private cash-book, 
wouldn’t they ? A. Yes. 
Q. Then, how would they ascertain, — how would any of us 
ascertain that it belonged to the Commonwealth? A. Well, 
they knew I didn’t own an}*- pigs ; everybody would. 
Q. Pardon me; 1 didn’t know that, for one. A. You 
would be likely to think it, I guess. 
Q. Now, Capt. Marsh,— and I understand this to have 
been your habit; I will leave it there, then. I understand? 
now, the habit of your keeping account of property sold. A 
No, sir; sometimes I have taken money and deposited it in the 
bank at Lowell. 
Q. I don’t doubt it; and made no account of it on the books 
of the institution ? A. The account of the sale would be on 
the book. 
Q. The account of sale? A. Yes. 
Q. But here the account of sale wasn’t on the book? A. 
Yes ; I have told you it was on my book. 
Q. .Now, }Tou make a difference between your book and the 
book of the institution, don’t you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All right; but I was only asking whether this was your 
habit of keeping account; that is all I wanted to know. If it 
was so, be it so ; and if it was not so, I shall ask you why you 
dealt with this pig differently from other pigs and calves, and 
things that you might sell? A. This was rather a peculiar 
case, and I didn’t know what might come out of it. 
Q. What wras there peculiar after you got the money ? A. 
There wasn’t anything then ; there wasn’t anything then. 
Q. What? A. There wasn’t anything then. 
Q. When got the money there wasn’t anything peculiar 
about it? A. No. 
Q. Nor about the disposition of the money? A. No. 
Q. That was so, was it? A. That was true ; yes, sir. 2534 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. It was done as the ordinary course of business was trans- 
acted there; it made no special matter. Well, now, we find 
people here who swear that they have bought calves of your 
establishment, and we don’t find them on the books. A. Yes. 
Q. Have you got an account of these calves, anywhere on 
your private account, where you received that money? A. 
There are some, — no, not on my private book. 
Q. They are not on the institution book, so far as we can 
hear. Now, take the case of this man, Mr. Poor, who sold 
calves, and who had been there a great many years, and spent 
the money for tobacco? A. That is what he told me. 
Q. That is what he told you? A. He didn’t say for a great 
many years, however. 
Q. IIow do }’ou know that; when was that done? A. I say 
he didn’t tell me he had done it for a good many 3'ears ; I stated 
what he told me. 
Q. How long ago did 30U find out he had sold calves, and 
spent the mone3T for tobacco? A. Well, I should think it was 
six months or a year before he left. 
Q. When did he leave? A. He left last year, in June. 
Q. How long had he been with 3'ou? A. Twenty-two 
3Tears, I believe. 
Q. Did he tell you this when he was going awa3'? A. 
Before. 
Q. What? A. Before he thought of going away. 
Q. What? A. Before he thought of going awa3*. 
Q. Before he thought of going away he told you this? Well, 
for all you know, — he didn’t seem to think there was anything 
wrong about it, did he? A. Well, he didn’t appear to. 
Q. Well, then, for aught 3rou know, it had been going on all 
the while he had been there? A. No; he hadn’t an oppor- 
tunity of carrying it that long. 
Q. Wiry not? A. Because we used to raise our calves, 
and eat them. 
Q. All of them? A. A large share of them. 
Q. A large share? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Haven’t there been calves sold eveiy year for the last 
fifteen years? A. No; I think not. 
Q. Sure of that; on the books? A. No; I wouldn’t swear 
theyT hadn’t been, because it may be. 
Q. Was he accustomed to sell calves, pigs, and other things 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2535 
raised on the farm ? A. L never knew his doing such things 
till he told me. 
Q. Suppose yon didn’t happen to be there, or Charles ; sup- 
pose you had been gone to a convention, or anything of that 
kind,— A. There hasn’t been a convention lately. 
Q. Or any place,— yon and Charles and Thomas ; and here 
was the farmer, and a man wanted a pig; wouldn’t he sell it? 
A. He would not be likely to. 
Q. Why not? A. Because we haven’t many pigs to sell. 
Q. Suppose you happened to have one to sell; wouldn’t he 
be likely to sell it? A. He would be authorized to sell it, I 
suppose. 
Q. Precisely; he would be authorized to sell it. Well, is 
there any daily account kept of all the sales of products of that 
institution on the books of the institution ? A. There is an 
account kept of what is sold ; it is not a daily account, perhaps, 
because the sales are not made daily",— when the sales are 
made. 
Q. Is there a regular account kept of all the sales of prod- 
ucts of that farm, made at the time of the sales, of the institu- 
tion ? A. There is intended to be. 
Q. Why wasn’t this pig on that account? A. I had it on 
my private memorandum. 
Q. 1 know where, it was ; but why wasn’t it on that dail}" 
account? Where was it on the regular account? It was on 
your private memorandum, and the money in your pocket. A. 
Yes. 
Q. Very well; now, why w-a’n’t it on the books of the institu- 
tion? A. It will get there in course of time. 
Q. Well, by a regular account; will that be in the regular 
process of business? A. It well be in the process that will get 
there. 
Q. Well, will that be on there in the regular process of your 
business? A. No, sir ; it will be a little out of course. 
Q. Now, will you say that there is no other instance of that 
sort, anywhere? A. What? 
Q. Will }"ou say that there is no other instance of that sort, 
where you have sold the property and got the money ? A. I 
will. 
Q. Yes; but was there any reason why this should have 
been treated, after you got the money, different from other cases ? 
A. No. 2536 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Q. Now, didn’t you ever,— you were asked, yesterday, 
about Mrs. Marsh taking the clothing of the inmates, or other 
of 3’our family, — did you ever hear that she did? A. I have. 
Q. IIow man}' years ago ? A. I have heard it here. 
Q. Ever before? A. I heard the story about the insti- 
tution. 
Q. Heard the story among the people, the inmates, you 
mean? A. No,—yes,—I don’t know; they have ample 
time, and talk a great many1, things. 
Q. IIow many years ago did you hear that stpry? A. 
Well, I couldn’t tell you, sir. 
Q. Ten. A. Perhaps so. 
Q. Fifteen? A. I should hardly think I did. 
Q. And the story was,—rightly or wrongly, we won’t say any- 
thing about that now, —but there got to be a story about, some 
fifteen, ten or fifteen years ago, that she was taking the inmates’ 
clothing? A. That she was taking it from the baggage-room. 
Q. From the baggage-room ; yes, sir; of the dead and ab- 
sconded. A. Yes. 
Q. Well, wasn’t that made a charge against you and her, 
officially? A. When, sir? 
Q. Well, seven y'ears,— at an}'time? A. I believe they 
attempted something of that sort in a previous investigation. 
Q. You don’t mean an investigation that was had here befoi*e 
the legislative committee ? A. I do. 
Q. Well, I don’t find anything of that sort in that investiga- 
tion, either in the charges or in any' other way. A. I think 
there was something of that sort. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I think you are mistaken. Won’t }'on 
turn to that and let us see ? 
The Chairman. There is nothing in the official report show- 
ing that that was investigated ? 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I don’t want any' information, 
Mr. Chairman. I only want the fact; I want to convince this 
witness that he was wrong when he thinks this was something 
gone into before that committee. 
The Chairman. I say there were no charges, according to 
the official report, of that character. 
Gov. Butler. Before the committee. 
The Chairman. Before the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Then I want to see it, because I want t.o cor- 
rect myself. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2537 
The Chairman. It is in the second volume of the proceed- 
ings, page 1945, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. [Examining the record.] I still don’t see it. 
The Chairman. Page 1945. I said that there was no such 
charge ; perhaps you misunderstood me. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I was trying to tell the witness that 
there was no such charge before that committee. 
The Witness. I thought there was. 
The Chairman. That charge was in the letter of Dr. Howe. 
Gov. Butler. I know where it was, sir; I was very much 
surprised to learn — . 
The Witness. Well, it was made somewhere. 
Gov. Butler. It was not before that committee, we have 
learned. 
The Witness. No. 
Q. But you heard of it; heard the charge officially made ? A. 
Not frequently ; I think I have heard it. 
Q. You heard it; I am not now talking about the almshouse 
inmates. Did you ever, it being officially made, in another 
source, as we have learned, did you ever call on the trustees or 
anybody else to investigate it? A. Well, sir, I didn’t take 
interest enough in it to think anything about it; I don’t think I 
ever did. 
Q. Whether \ ou took interest enough in it or not I am not 
asking you ; you simply didn’t do it. A. I didn’t do it. 
Q. It was made a grave charge, wasn’t it, by the board of 
state charities to the governor against your institution ? A. 
That is, perhaps, where it came in ; that charge was made some- 
where. 
Q. Yes, I know it was made somewhere ; it was made there 
in the gravest form, and reiterated twice or three times. A. 
Yres. 
Q. And you never called for any investigation? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. And you suffered your wife and yourself to lie under that 
imputation, gravely, officially made, without any attempt to 
meet it. A. I showed to my trustees, one of them, certainly, 
if not more, just what was done. 
Q. I don’t ask, —was that in writing, sir? A. What? 
Q. Was that in writing? A. No, sir; it was in works. 
Q. In words, — one of your trustees ; which one? A. In a 
form like this — 2538 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. No; which one, now, sir? A. Mr. Elliot was the man 
I refer to. 
Q. Mr. Elliot; I don’t ask you what you said to your trus- 
tees, if it wasn’t in writing. A. It was in work, I told you. 
Q. Was in what? A. It was in work. If you will allow 
me to state the case as it was I should be most happy to state 
it. 
Q. 1 have no doubt, sir ; but I am now upon the question of 
your calling for an investigation, so that everybody else could 
know as well as that trustee. A. There wasn’t anything to 
investigate of that kind. 
Q. Well, there were charges made of that sort? A. Yes. 
Q. And made by your superiors, the board of health? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. The board of charities, and made to your superior 
the governor of the Commonwealth. A. The governor of 
the Commonwealth never made it. 
Q. No, it was made to him. A. Yes. Now, what was 
the outcome of it? 
Q. That is what I am going to find out. That is what I am 
here for. Then, for ten or fifteen years you have allowed that 
charge to stand uninvestigated? A. I knew there wasn’t any 
truth in it and I didn’t care anything about it. 
Q. Didn’t care anything about it. You knew there wasn’t 
an}’ truth in it and you didn’t care anything about it? A. I 
did. 
Q. And it was also a part of the history of the institution ; 
they were talking about it, that when they died their clothes 
would go the same way? Now, sir, I want to ask you whether 
it was also charged that things were sent away from the institu- 
tion? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many years had that been going on? A. Well, 
the charges of things being sent away is more recent, isn’t it? 
Q. Oh, no. A. I guess it was. 
Q. Oh, no. A. I guess it was. 
Q. Well, I am not to be questioned about it; when did you 
first hear of it? A. I have no recollection of hearing of nn}'- 
tliiug till 1 heard it here in this investigation. 
Q. Will you swear you didn’t? A. No. 
Q. What? A. No; because I don’t remember. 
Q. You don’t remember. Well, it wouldn’t be a thing likely 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2539 
to be forgotten, would it? A. Well, it would depend upon 
the source from whence it came. 
Q. Well, now, will you tell us whether any coal paid for by 
the Commonwealth, paid for by yourself, ever went to Tewks- 
bury to be used anywhere? A. Paid by myself? 
Q. Paid for by yourself in your own private account, ever 
went to Tewksbury to be used anywhere? A. 1 used to buy 
coal for our minister, and I bought coal for the officers, that I 
paid for. 
Q. You bought coal for the officers; what officers? A. I 
bought for our baker last year; I have bought for the clerk 
since he has kept house ; I bought for one of our matrons, who 
also kept house,—had a family, and the house was kept for her. 
Q. How early did you begin to buy coal for the officers? A. 
Whenever they asked me to. 
Q. That don’t help me at all, sir. A. 1 don’t know as it 
does, sir. 
Q. Then, why answer it? Now, answer the question,—how 
early did you begin that? A. I can’t tell you anything about 
it; I know the fact. 
Q. Tell me the earliest fact; the earliest time that you know 
that you bought coal for anybody. A. Well, I told you I 
bought for our minister. 
Q. I know you told me you bought it for the minister ; but 
how early did you begin to buy for the minister? A. He hasn’t 
been there but about three years and a half; it can’t be beyond 
that. 
Q. But there may have been another minister before him? 
A. I didn’t buy any for any other minister. 
Q. Didn’t any go to any other minister? A. Not to my 
knowledge. 
Q. Well, did you contract or in any way get any coal in 
Boston that went to him ? A. To anybody but the one minis- 
ter ? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. The present one ? A. No, sir. 
Q. How long since Charles Marsh kept house? A. Two 
or three years ; two, perhaps, in June. 
Q. Did you buy coal by the carload for him? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And it was used in his house? A. Carried there; l 
suppose it was used there. 2540 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. One carload of coal? A. I think I bought him two or 
three. 
Q. Yes; now, did you buy at the same place you bought 
the coal for the State? A. I could not tell you about that; I 
should think likely that I did. 
Q. Did you pay for your private account out of the State’s 
money for coal? A. I pay for my private account? 
Q. For coal at your coal merchant’s out of the State’s 
money? A. No, sir. 
Q. You did not? A. No, sir. 
Q. No part of it? A. No, sir. 
Q. And if there was any coal charged to your private 
account it should have been paid for by 3011 and not by the 
State, shouldn’t it? A. You know what I stated yesterday. 
Q. I don’t ask you what you stated yesterday ; I want you 
now to state in answer to my question. A. My answer is 
this, Governor: That I am not responsible if they made a 
mistake in charging two carloads of coal to my private account 
when I bought it for the State ; I am not responsible for that. 
Q. I am not upon the question of responsibility. A. Y'es, 
sir. 
Q. Did 3*011 get two carloads of coal, which were bought for 
3rour private account and which was on your private account, 
which coal was actually bought for the State? A. There was 
two carloads of coal that I found as 3*0111* investigation pro- 
ceeded here — 
Q. Leave out what 3*011 found out after the investigation. A. 
I want to tell you how I found it out, for I never, probably, 
should have known it. I went and bought two carloads of coal 
for the state almshouse at Tewksbury and had it sent there, 
and it was used there. Well, now, it seems that the clerk of 
the man that 1 bought it of charged it to my private account. 
I had had a private account, as I said yesteixkry, for several 
3*ears before I ever bought airy for the Commonwealth. 
Q. Never mind about that. A. I had a private account 
there, and that two carloads of coal at two different times was 
charged to 1113* private account, and it belonged to the State. I 
took those bills and they* were put into the monthly bills, when- 
ever the3r were contracted, for the Commonwealth. 
Q. Now, having gone through that, please answer 1113* ques- 
tion. A, Now, hold on just a moment, My trustees audited 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2541 
these bills, they came to the auditor’s office and were passed 
through. 
Q. That we know all about. A. And when I paid for that 
coal I drew a State check and paid for it. Well, noiv, I didn’t 
know anything about where that coal was charged on their ac- 
count ; I bought it for the State. Their clerk, when these 
checks were received, turned to my private account and 
credited me with the money. I knew nothing about it, and 
never should have known it, probably, if it hadn’t been for this 
investigation. 
Q. Very well. That is all very well, sir; but you paid your 
private account, didn’t you, with your own money? A. I 
always intend to. 
Q. And took a receipt for it? A. Usually. 
Q. Well, their books show that you have paid for your 
private account, the whole of it, including that coal. The 
auditor’s books show that the Commonwealth has paid for it, 
therefore they have been paid twice. A. Well, sir, I can’t 
answer for that. 
Q. That must have upset their cash balance pretty badly 
that day. A. Don’t you find they all balance? 
Q. Yes ; that is what the trouble is. A. You don’t know 
what to make of it, do you ? 
Q. If they had got their pay twice their accounts would not 
have balanced. A. I don’t pay out of my private funds for 
coal for the State almshouse. 
Q. You paid your private account and took a receipt for it, 
and that private account shows these two carloads of coal. A. 
I tell you, Governor, that I never did any such tiling; that is 
not what I have been telling you. 
Q. Pardon me; that is what the account shows. A. I 
don’t care anything about the account; I knew nothing about 
it. 
Q. But you see — A. I knew nothing about it. 
Q. I don’t care what you knew ; I am upon the question of 
fact. A. So am I. 
* 
Q. The question of fact is this : that you paid your private 
account as.it was made out. A. Exactly. 
Q. Very wrell. A. Now, that coal was not charged on my 
private account and paid for by me by my private money. 
Q. What? Why, certainly ; but the difficulty is it appears 
to have beep. A. Yes ; well. 2542 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And the cash is credited to you on your private account. 
A. Exactl}’; that is what I have been saying. 
Q. That is one payment. A. Yes. 
Q. Very well; that is all straight. Now, then, when we 
come to the auditor’s books we find that the Commonwealth 
paid it; that is another payment. A. Yes ; and you will find 
that when they credited me at Bangs & Horton with paying for 
that coal, they credited by State check. That is what you find 
on their books. Now, you know that as well as I do. 
Q. I know what is on the books ; certainly. A. Yes. 
Q. I know that; but that,then, refers to the whole account, 
doesn’t it? A. You can call it what you are a mind to. 
Q. Pardon me ; I am not calling it what I am a mind to ; I 
am only calling it what it is on the books. A. Yes. 
Q. They received all the money by one check, didn’t they, 
for both accounts ? A. All the money ? 
Q. Yes. A. Whenever I paid them any money for private 
account, I paid them in cash, I think, with one or two exeep-. 
tions ; it was not a State check ; I think it was a check on the 
bank of Mutual Redemption, or something of that sort. My 
bills were usually credited, you will find, — with the exception of 
one or two checks, which were not State checks, you will find it 
was credited by cash. 
Q. I know ; you didn’t give any State checks at all. You 
received a check for so much money advanced you by the State 
to pay your bills with. A. Yes. 
Q. And then you deposited that and drew your own checks 
to pa\r the bills. A. As superintendent. 
Q. As superintendent; yes, sir. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, whether right or wrong, it has so happened 
that that carload of coal that went to Tewksbury when Charles 
Marsh was keeping house, got paid for by a State check. A. 
It didn’t do any such thing. 
Q. Why not? A. Because that wasn’t the coal at all. 
The coal that was paid for by a State check was the coal that 
was shipped to the almshouse, and you know it. 
Q. How should I know it? A. Because your clerks said 
you knew it. 
Q. What clerk said I knew it? A. Told my clerk so. 
Q. What clerk was that? A. I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Nor I either; nor anybody else. A. And then, the 
depot master at Tewksbury has certified that that coal was 1883.1 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2543 
delivered to the Tewksbury almshouse; didn’t go to Charles 
Marsh. 
Q. I haven’t seen any such certificate ; but I am willing 
you should make the fullest explanation about this. A. I 
intend to; 1 don’t intend to be charged with stealing money. 
Q. Still this trouble remains, and that is that the books 
show different. A. They don’t. 
Q. Well, we have got them here ; copies of them. A. Yes. 
Q. Now, we will go to another matter. A. Yes. 
Q. Why was there, on that occasion, two carloads of coal 
shipped to the state almshouse? You didn’t buy your coal for 
the state almshouse by the two carloads? A. That coal that 
was bought,— those two carloads of coal, — was at two separate 
times ; they were not at once ; and it was finer coal than our fur- 
nace," our boiler coal, broken coal; it was wanted for cooking 
purposes in the range, in the kitchen, and we bought one car- 
load and used if. up, and then they wanted some more and I 
bought another. That is the way it came, and that is the way 
it was used. 
Q. Are there any other two carloads of coal of that kind to 
be found on your accounts that year? A. I am sure I don’t 
know. 
Q. What? A. I don’t know. 
Q. You ought to know. A. Well, the books will show if 
there is. 
Q. Very well; that kind of coal was of a better class of 
coal, wasn’t it; it was stove coal and higher priced? A. It 
was finer coal. 
Q. Finer than ordinary broken coal? A. Finer than fur- 
nace coal; yes ; it was egg. 
Q. And out of the many thousand tons of coal 3011 had 
there, do you mean to say there wasn’t fine coal enough,— of 
broken coal,—there wasn’t fine enough coal for the kitchen 
range? A. We might have picked it Out, I suppose, if we 
had had somebody to do it; but then, this year we have bought 
a hundred tons of fine coal. 
Q. I understand ; don’t hurry. With the exception of that 
one transaction, counting the two carloads as one, you always 
got along without the finer coal, didn’t you? A. No, we 
didn’t. 
Q. Where do you find two carloads of coal in your account? 
A. We have bought a hundred tons at a time. 2544 
charitable institutions. 
[Apt*. 
Q. I know you did. A. Wo wanted some more. 
Q. You had to get it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then these two particular car loads were bought when 
you had got out and wanted some more? A. Well, Governor, 
you have — 
Q. Now, let us go to another thing. At the time those two 
carloads were shipped were there not a large number of other 
car loads of coal shipped? A. 1 should think not. 
Q. Won’t you look at those bills and see? A. I know all 
about those bills. 
Q. But you never did know anything about them until after 
I found them out? A. 1 never should have known they were 
charged to my account. You didn’t find anything wrong about 
it, Governor. You found these folks made a mistake in charg- 
ing me with the coal when 1 bought it for the State. 
Q. It appears upon the books. Now, up to that time when 
that was disclosed, you had no idea that that coal had been done 
one thing with or another more than 3>ou knew what had been 
done with any other coal— that few tons? A. I bought it for 
the almshouse and knew it came, and knew it was used there ; 
that is all I knew about it. 
Q. The same as you knew about the others? A. AVhen I 
enclosed the bill with the State check and it came back 
receipted, why should I know they had charged it to me? It 
was a mistake and they knew it was so. 
Q. That is very good, but tell me, didn’t that check contain 
payment for other articles than these two carloads of coal? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. And was there not money or checks paid at the same 
time that this was paid? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, sir, these bills will show. Now, I want to ask you 
a little about those dead bodies. A. Well, sir. 
Q. From the first time you came there, have dead bodies 
been shipped to Harvard? A. I have never seen one. 
Q. Is that all the answer you want to make me to that ques- 
tion? A. I have no doubt there have been remains shipped. 
Q. Will you answer my question? A. May I trouble you 
to state it again? for really, I didn’t get the nature of it. 
Q. Then you should not have answered it upon your oath, 
sir. From the time you took possession of that almshouse at 
Tewksbury have there been dead bodies shipped to Harvard? 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2545 
A. Yes, sir ; I have no doubt of it, although I have never seen 
one. 
Q. You never have seen one? A. No. 
Q. Were you ever present when one was shipped? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Have you ever known when they were shipped ? A. I 
have, sometimes. 
Q. And that continued up to the time of this investigation? 
A. T presume so. 
Q. Now, sir, when did you ever require a bond? You went 
there in 1858? A. Well, sir, won’t those bonds tell? 
Q. No, I don’t think they will. I want to know when you 
required a bond? A. Well, sir, will you allow me to look at 
them ? 
Q. I am willing when you have given the time of requiring 
a bond. When did you ever require a bond? A. Well, now, 
it is ray impression that Cambridge has given two bonds there, 
but I am not quite sure ; and I think one of them — 
Q. That is not the question. When did you first require a 
bond for a dead body to be shipped? A. I think it was in 
1858. Now, the bond will tell. 
Q. Then if it was in 1868 there is one here earlier. A. 
Yes ; they told me the}* had a proper bond. 
Q. Very well. [Referring to the bonds.] There is one 
here, I find. Let us see if it is Cambridge. Yes, this is the 
Cambridge bond. 1 find the earliest one was in 1864. Then 
you had been shipping bodies for more than six years without 
an}* bond, hadn’t you? A. No, sir; I think there is a bond, 
Governor, a little—. Will you allow me to look at those, sir? 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
The Witness.. Isn’t there another one? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
The Witness. When is that dated, sir? 
Gov. Butler. This is dated — I think one of them is dated 
later; I don’t know but one is dated earlier. Here is one in 
1858. 
Q. And that bond is for — ? A. That is a bond for one 
hundred dollars ; that is the original. That is the earliest one 
I think ; then there was a new one given. That is for five 
hundred dollars, sir. 
Q. Those were the two? A. Yes, sir. 2546 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And under that all the bodies have been shipped to Har- 
vard that have been shipped ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then here is one of the faculty of the College of Physi- 
cians and Surgeons ; and that was dated on the 14th day of 
December, 1881. Were there any bodies that went to the Col- 
lege of Physicians and Surgeons prior to that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Sure of that? A. Well, I don’t think there was. 
Q. Do you know whether there was or not? A. I could 
not swear there was not; I don’t believe there was. 
Q. Then here was one in 1874, from the medical department 
of Boston University. Any bodies go there before that? A. 
Not to my knowledge. * 
Q. You don’t know that any went anywhere to your knowl- 
edge? A. I never saw an}7 go. Some went, to my knowledge, 
but I didn’t see them. 
Q. You told us yesterday that the trustees appointed your 
son, Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., their agent. How many years ago 
was that? A. Well, I have an idea about ten. 
Q. About ten years ago ? A. It is in that neighborhood. 
Q. Was that the first time you shipped any bodies? A. 
That he did ? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. Whose agent was he when he shipped bodies ten years 
ago? A. Well, he was mine. 
Q. Did the trustees know anything about it? A. Well, 
we used to talk about it; they never took any action about it 
that I know of. They knew what was done. That is, they 
knew7 that bodies were being delivered. 
Q. How did they know7 it? Did you tell them? A. I told 
them. 
Q. [Referring to the trustees’ records.] Now, sir, I have 
here the book of records running back to 1879, there, and here 
it runs back to 1858. Is there any record of any action be- 
tween 1858 and 1881 on the books of the trustees appointing 
your son Tom or anybody else their agent? A. I don’t know 
whether it was a matter of record or not. I know the appoint- 
ment was made. 
Q. Did you see it? A. I heard it. 
Q. Oh, it was done by word of mouth? A. I was there 
when it was done ; whether it was a matter of record I don’t 
know. 
Q. Was it put of record? A. 1 say I don’t know. 1883.j 
HOUSE]— No. 300. 
2547 
Q. Who kept the record ? A. The clerk, whoever he was. 
Q. Who was the clerk in 1874? A. In 1874? 1 don’t 
know ; it must have been Charles. 
Q. Did he ever make any report to you what he did under 
that appointment? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did he ever make any report to you in any way, or in 
any form, of what he did under that appointment? A. He 
used to ask me concerning sending. 
Q. What? A. No; no report. 
Q. Do you know how mairy dead bodies went aw a}- ? A. 
I could not swear. 
Q. Did you ever call on him for any account? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Did you ever know of your own knowledge in what 
manner they went away, — of your own knowledge? A. I 
know nothing, only what was said that Mr. Manning — 
Q. What was told you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you know of your knowledge where they went to? 
A. Why, I could not trace them all; I knew that the colleges 
were having them. 
Q. I asked if you knew of your own knowledge? A. I 
never followed them. 
Q. Did you ever go down to the college about them? A. 
Down to the medical school, }’ou mean. 
Q. Yes. A. I think I have been in there. I didn’t go 
there to look after those remains. 
Q. Nor to make any inquiries about them? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever take any measures to know whether these 
bonds were fulfilled? A. No, sir; I supposed — 
Q. Did you make any requirement upon anybody else to 
make any inquiry? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did }’Ou take — these bonds here require that the re- 
mains should be decently buried ; and that is for the security 
of the public and the security of the friends. Having permitted 
those bodies to be delivered there in large numbers, did }rou see 
whether that security was fulfilled? A. I did not; never had 
any reason to doubt it. 
Q. You had no reason to doubt, or any reason to know? 
A. I had no means of knowing. 
Q. Yes, you had, — by inquiry? A. I don’t know about 
that; suppose they would not have told me. 
Q. Then you could have sued the bond, I suppose, if thet 2548 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
hadn’t told vou. You could have stopped the supply? A. I 
supposed we were dealing with honorable people. 
Q. Perhaps that is the reason, but the statute required you 
to take a bond? A. Yes, sir; and there it is. I have had 
a pretty good lawyer tell tne that the colleges were not required 
under that law to give a bond ; that was intended to apply to 
physicians and surgeons. 
Q. That the colleges were not required—? A. A very 
good lawyer told me so. 
Q. I hope you didn’t pay him for it? A. I did not; he 
didn’t ask me anything for it. 
Q. He got the full value of his opinion. How long ago was 
that? A. What, sir? 
Q. That you were so told? A. Well, I have been told so 
within six months. 
Q. Within six months. Then you didn’t act upon that 
opinion ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then we leave that opinion out. You thought, up to 
that time, what other people thought, except this good lawyer, 
that the colleges were required to give a bond as well as every- 
body else? A. I took the bonds of them. 
Q. You took the bonds of them for that purpose; not 
exactly" of them, but of their professors. A. They signed for 
the college, I suppose. 
Q Yes, sir; they signed for them, and they are delivered to 
the college. As a rule, how long were the remains of a body 
kept before burial? A. That would depend altogether on cir- 
cumstances ; the disease with which they died, the season of the 
year, whether warm or cold weather. In cold weather, as you 
must be aware, they could be kept a good deal longer. 
Q. I am not upon the point how long they could have been 
kept? but how long, as a rule, between the time of death and the 
time of burial? A. We always aimed, if possible, to keep 
them until their relatives or friends could be heard from. 
Q. Leave out your aims; I want the number of days they 
were kept ? A. In Boston, they used to answer very promptly. 
Q. I don’t ask about those who answered from Boston. 
Won’t you answer my question ? A. I will as near as I can. 
I stated to you, sir, that as soon as — I meant to have said that 
as soon as a person died the business of the clerk was, since 
wc have had the telegraph or the telephone, if it was warm 
weather we would send the speediest message possible to wher- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2549 
ever any relative or friend was known to reside. If we didn’t 
know any relative or friend the law requires — and we so did— 
that we shall notify the town or city’ from which the individual 
was sent. As soon as we heard from them, if they were not to 
be taken away they would be buried. 
Q. If they were not to be taken away— ? A. By friends 
or relatives. 
Q. Well, “to be buried” — you don’t mean that, quite; 
because a large portion of them went somewhere else? A. 
Oh, no ; it was not a large portion. 
Q. Well, we will see how that may be; well, a portion? 
A. A portion. 
Q. Well, how long were they kept? A. Kept as long as 
they could be kept, I say, with reference to the disease they 
died with and the condition of the weather. 
Q. Now, then, as a rule, taking those who were to be sent 
away, how long were they kept? Those that you could not 
write for, because you would not know where to write, with no 
friend or relative in this country? A. We could always notify 
the city or town from whence they came, and we did. 
Q. Well, they might not have come from any city or town ; 
they might have wandered into your place and not have come 
from any city or town. Now those would be sent away, 
clearly. Now, how long were they kept? Now, no boys’ play ; 
if there was any rule about it; if there was not, I would just as 
lief not have any? A. No; there was not. We had to be 
governed by the circumstances in the case. 
Q. Did you ever go to anybody, and if so, to whom, in 
Tewksbury, and say to them on their dying beds: “ Have you 
any objection to your remains being dissected?” A. What do 
you mean? Anybody in the almshouse? 
Q. Yes? A. ISo, sir. 
Q. Did }Tou send anybody on that errand ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever know of that question being asked? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Ever hear anything about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Until now? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never? A. No, sir. 
Q. Who selects the persons, the bodies which should be 
taken to Tewksbury? A. Taken to Tewksbury? 
Q. From Tewksbury to Harvard College, or to the colleges? 
A. The person designated to do the business. 2550 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. That is, Mr. Thomas Marsh, Jr. ? A. He did a large 
share of it. 
Q. Who did the rest of it? A. Why, he sometimes would 
come and ask me. 
Q. What was the rule that governed the selection? A. 
Well, the rule that governed the selection was this : when reply 
came back there is no home nor friends known, we supposed it 
might be safe to send it—if it was a time of }-ear when the ma- 
terial was wanted. There is a large portion of the year when 
none are wanted, and all are buried except those taken by 
friends. 
Q. Now, you have told me something you wanted to tell me ; 
now tell me what the rule was about selection? A. Well, I 
hope I have not done any harm. 
Q. No ; you haven’t done good or harm, except to take so 
much time. Won’t }Tou answer my question ? What was the rule of 
selection, who should go away, and who should not? A. Those 
who hadn’t requested to be buried, those who had no friends or 
relatives known to us, so far as we could tell by any means 
within our power. 
Q. If that was the rule of selection, then, all who hadn’t 
any friends, and all who hadn’t made any request to be buried, 
were sent? A. No, sir; I don’t say that. 
Q. You said that was the rule? A. No, sir ; the selection 
was made from that elass. 
Q. Why did you select one rather than another in that class? 
A. Why, we didn’t want to overstock them. 
Q. Did you ever do that? A. No; I think they always 
complained they didn’t get enough. 
Q. Then selection for overstocking didn’t apply at all? A. 
Yes. 
Q Now, I want to know what the rule was among those 
who hadn’t any relatives — what the rule of selection was, if 
there was any? A. I have told you, two or three times — to 
take those who have no relatives or friends. 
Q. But they wanted all they could get? A. Well, I didn’t 
send all they wanted. 
Q. Now, I want to know what ones you kept back. That 
is the very thing I want to know. A. What, sir? 
Q. What ones you kept back, and why you kept those 
particular ones ? A. I said I didn’t send all they wanted. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2551 
The reason 1 didn’t send them was because I thought there 
might be somebody come for them—probably some relative. 
Q. Well, take those that somebody might come for and 
leave them out of that class. Did you send all the rest? A. 
Well, I suppose 3-011 know about how many were sent a year? 
Q. No, I don’t. A. Didn’t that committee report to you? 
Q. What committee ? A. The executive committee of the 
Board of Health, Lunacy and Charity? 
Q. No, sir ; not that 1 know of. I asked them to report, 
and they asked me if I had any knowledge on the subject. I 
made a complaint about that, you know. But leave that out. 
I am now trying to find out what you know, flow many were 
sent? I don’t know, because I can’t believe all I hear. But 
now I want to know how many were sent? A. You don’t 
believe all you see in the newspapers ? 
Q. How many were sent? A. When? 
Q. How many were sent anytime you please? A. Well, 
during the time when the material was wanted — 
Q. That was all the time? A. No ; not all the time. 
Q. Why not? A. They don’t want any this time of \Tear. 
Q. Pardon me; were there not some pickled ones? A. 
Well, there was one 3 ear when tlmy said there were some pick- 
led. I saw some barrels there. 
Q. Didn’t you know the}’ were being pickled? A. No. 
Q. What did 3rou think the barrels were there for? A. 1 
was told what they were there for. 
Q. At the time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then there was a time when they had them pickled? A. 
I don’t know whether that was the name applied to it; I don’t 
think it was. 
Q. Well, preserved; I don’t care what it was called. A. 
Preserved ; yes, sir. 
Q. Now was there any record kept of how man}T were sent? 
A. I cannot tell you anything about the record. I never kept 
any. 
Q. Did you ever see one? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did 3-011 ever ask for one ? A. No, sir.' 
Q. Did you take an)r means, and if so what, of finding out 
how many went, until after this investigation? Don’t tell me a 
word of what has happened since. A. I tell you 1 don’t know. 
Q. I ask you if 3-011 took any means to find out? A. No, 
sir. I didn’t want to know. 2552 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Then you were in this condition of things : as superin- 
tendent of that establishment, you were sending off the bodies 
of poor people to be cut up, and 3*ou didn’t want to know how 
many were sent. Is that it? A. I knew — 
Q. Why didn’t you want to know? A. I knew there was 
a law prescribed ; I knew there was a man to do it, and 1 didn’t 
busy myself about it. I had a good agent. 
Q. And the man to do it was your son, Thomas J. ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you know he was getting an}T for doing it? 
A. I should think he would be a great fool to do it for noth- 
ing. 
Q. Why not? A. Why, I would not. 
Q. Pardon me. Is that so? The law made it 3*0111* duty to 
give those dead bodies to those who called for them? A. 
Exactly ; 1 did. 
Q. Precisely; 3*011 gave them? A. Yes, sir; nobody ever 
paid a cent for one. 
Q. And your son, Thomas, was paid for all his time there, 
wasn’t he, 133* the State? A. I suppose so. 
Q. And he was put in charge of this business, and he ac- 
cepted that charge? A. For about ten 3’ears. 
Q. For about ten 3’ears ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he had done it before that? A. He had; 3Tes, 
sir. 
Q. It would be difficult, I think, to find any record of that 
taking charge ten years ago, but he was in charge of that busi- 
ness? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you put him in charge 3*011 rself? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, did you tell him you would not pay him aii3*- 
thing? A. No, sir. 
Q. And did he go and do it? A. He always did what I 
asked him to, carefulh*. 
Q. And 3*011 thought he was doing it for nothing? A. I 
didn’t have an3* thought about it. 
Q. Didn’t you think about it? You told me you would 
think him a fool if he had done it for nothing. A. I think so, 
now. 
Q. Now, didn’t 3*011 know whether he was getting anything 
out of that, or not? A. I never asked him about it. 
Q. Did he ever tell 3*ou? A. I don’t think he ever did, 
Governor. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2553 
Q. Do 3’ou know he never did? A. I think he never 
did. 
Q. How do you know there was no money ever received for 
any? You have sworn here with great fierceness, twice — A. 
Because I know. 
Q. How do }tou know it? A. As I know a great many 
things. 
Q. How do you know that, Captain, — this thing? A. Be- 
cause I always forbade it. I have been offered money a great 
many times, and 1 would not take it. 
Q. Excuse me ; I didn’t ask if you did. It don’t follow that 
somebody else didn’t. A. I don’t believe my orders were dis- 
obeyed. 
Q. Very well. You ordered him not to take anything? A. 
I simply said to him, this is an important matter, this is the law, 
and you must keep inside of it. 
Q. Well, your counsel says there is no law against taking 
something. However, we won’t go into that. Now, what I 
want to ask you is, was there anything more than that said? 
A. Than what? 
Q. What you have said now that 3rou said to him : “ There 
is the law ; keep inside of it.” A. Well, T said it a great 
many times. 
Q. W1)3T so? Had 3011 an idea he was breaking over it? 
Why sa3’ it? A. Because I wanted to keep it fresh in his 
mind. 
Q. You said it a great many times, did 3Tou? A. I don’t 
know. 
Q. Now, how do 3rou know he didn’t sell every one of them? 
A. I have no reason to suppose he did any. 
Q. How do you know he didn’t? You have undertaken to 
swear to it. A. No ; I would not undertake to swear to it. 
Q. But 3’ou did. You swore that nobod\T took a cent. A. 
I dill ? That was not what I swore to. I said 1 never took a 
cent. 
Q. Pardon me. A. I know. That is what I said. I was 
talking about myself. 
Q. You will see on the record when you come to read it. 
I understood you to sa3r, sir, that nobod3r ever had a cent. 
Then, the next question is, how do 3rou know they didn’t? 
Otherwise I should not have been asking 3rou. A. Well, I 
have no reason to suppose — 2554 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. I don’t ask what your reasons to suppose are. Now, 
sir, don’t you know that he got more money for those bodies 
than he paid out for transportation ? I don’t care whether you 
call it selling the bodies or not. A. Oh, I suppose he got 
something for assisting in taking them away. 
Q. What? A. I have no doubt he had some compensation 
for assisting to get them away. 
Q. I don’t care what he got it for. Didn’t he get more 
money for the bodies than what he paid for his transportation ? 
A. Probably a part of the time he did. 
Q. Didn’t he all the time? A. No. 
Q. How do you know? A. Well, I think I should have 
known it if he had. 
Q. But you don’t know that he did, now? A. I said I 
thought he did. 
Q. Therefore you can leave out the “don’t know” both 
ways, can’t you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now you say that lie didn’t all the time. How do }rou 
know he didn’t get it all the time? A. Well, I know once he 
told me something about it, — that he was doing the work ; it 
was disagreeable work, and that he wras not getting anything 
for it. 
Q. You know that he told 3tou once that he was not getting 
anything for it. Did he ever tell you he was? A.' No, sir. 
Q. Never did? But he told you once he was not? It was 
disagreeable work to do. Did he say he handled the bodies 
himself? A. I told you I didn’t see one delivered. 
Q. How do you know it was disagreeable work? A. I 
didn’t see. 1 said it must be disagreeable work. 
Q. Why so? A. I think handling dead bodies must be. 
Q. If you didn’t know that he handled them— A. He was 
the agent appointed. 
Q. Your son Tom didn’t bury the bodies buried in the grave- 
yard, did he, himself? A. 1 don’t know what that has to do 
with their going away. 
Q. That is not your affair? A. Yes, it is. 
Q. Answer my question. Did he bury the bodies with his 
own hand that were buried in the graveyard? A. It was not 
his business to do it. 
Q. But didn’t he superintend that burial? Was not that in 
his charge also? A. No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2555 
Q. Whose duty was that? A. We used to hire a man to 
do that. 
Q. I am after the superintending. Who superintended it? 
Didn’t lie superintend the burial the same as the carrying away 
of the bodies? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now you knew that in the burial of them he didn’t handle 
dead bodies ; would you suppose he handled them when they 
went away ? A. I knew somebody must. 
Q. Somebody must when theyr were buried, and it was not 
Tom; therefore, where was the disagreeable work coming in? 
A. Well, perhaps you can imagine. 
Q. I don’t see it, if he didn’t do it. I can understand it 
would be very disagreeable if he had to go and take them up 
himself. A. That was not it. 
Q. You asked for my imagination and I imagined just that. 
Now, were ever any of these bodies brought back from Harvard, 
after their friends getting there as soon as they could, to be 
buried? A. I have had some brought back. 
Q. How many? A. I remember one this last winter. 
Q. Any before that? A. I think there may have been. 
Q. Were there not quite a number? A. I could not say 
how many’, sir. 
Q. That is, they had got off down to Harvard before the 
friends got there ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And had to be brought back? A. We had a case last 
winter. Will you allow me to state it? 
Q. No. Because it is a little too near this time. A. Well, 
it was a case where we were to notify the town where the per- 
son was sent from, and there were no friends. Afterwards it 
appeared that a married sister was living in Lexington, and lie 
said, — the husband of the man’s sister said his wife would 
like to have those remains. I sent and got them for them. 
Q. How soon did they get there? A. I should think — 
What do you mean ; to take them ? 
Q. How soon did they give the notice? A. The friends? 
Q. Yes. A. Oh, I should think it might have been — I 
paniiof tell certainly, but they hadn’t used it at Harvard. 
Q. T know. But how soon did you get the notice from the 
friends? A. I told you I got notice by the man coming 
from Lexington. 
Q. That is only half a dozen miles. A, J should think it 
might have bepn two, three or four weeks, 2556 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. It had gone down to Harvard and was brought back? 
A. Embalmed down there. 
Q. It had been embalmed? That is the first thing they do 
when they get them ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, did others come back that had been cut up more 
or less? A. I remember one case that did, after I got this 
back. 
Q. Did one come up that had been skinned? A. I never 
saw nor heard of any. 
The Chairman. Thursday morning, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Thursday I have to attend the College of the 
Holy Cross, I suppose. 
The Chairman. To-morrow you don’t want to be here? 
Gov. Butler. To-morrow I am going to Harvard. 
The Chairman. Friday morning, at half-past nine o’clock. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2557 
FIFTY-THIRD HEARING. 
Friday, June 29. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a. m., Senator 
Gilmore of Middlesex in the chair. 
Testimony of Thomas ,J. Marsh (resumed). 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler continued. 
Q. Mr. Marsh, did you know, have you any remembrance of 
an inmate, — an insane inmate, — a young woman b}r the name 
of Charlotte Anderson? A. Did you say sane? 
Q. Insane. A. Yes, sir; I know there was such a one. 
Q. You knew the fact. Did you know she was gotten with 
child while she was in your institution ? A. I know it was so 
charged, sir. 
Q. What? A. I know it was so charged ; I suppose it 
was so ; I have no doubt about it. 
Q. Well, that is to say, she was with child and she had been 
in the institution more than a year? A. I don’t know how 
long she had been there ; I know that is the fact, sir. 
Q. Do you remember her so you could tell what sort of a 
girl she was? A. I could not tell you. I have not her ap- 
pearance in my mind. I could not describe her. 
Q. A harmless insane person ? A. So far as I know. 
Q. Suffered to go about the premises and the fields ; gather- 
ing things in the field and the garden, I suppose? A. I don’t 
know that she was, sir. She was a woman that could do some 
work, as I remember about her, — about the house, I mean. I 
don’t know what she could have done outdoors. 
Q. I didn’t mean that she did much work outdoors, but 
gathering flowers? A. I know sometimes they take them out 
to pick pease, or something of that sort. 
Q. Or to pick berries in the berry season? A. I should 
not be surprised, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, did you ever say to that insane girl 2558 
CHAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
after she had her child in her arms, in substance this: 
“Charlotte, we know how to make babies here, don’t we?” A. 
Did I ever ask her that question? 
Q. No. Did 3011 ever say that to her? A. No, sir. 
Q. Sure? 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think he hears .you, Governor. 
Q. Sure you didn’t? A. I am sure I didn’t. I didn’t know 
you were waiting for an answer. 
Q. Now, do you know whether she was buried or not? A. 
I do not. 
Q. Did you know the fact that she had a sister living? A. 
I might have, at the time ; 1 don’t remember that I knew any 
such circumstance. 
Q. Do you know whether that sister was notified of her 
death? A. I cannot say that she was, sir. 
Q. Have you any recollection aboutthe sister’s calling there? 
A. No, sir. She might have called and I not know it. 
Q. Of course. Well, now, didn’t that sister — A. Allow 
me one moment, please, in regard to notifying the sister. The 
records will show whether she or the place she came from was 
notified. 
Q. Yes; the place she came from was one thing. Now, 
didn’t that sister call on you ? A. I have no recollection that 
she did, sir. 
Q. Had you a man under your charge in the establishment 
by the name of Burns? A. Is there one? 
Q. AVas there, latel} ? A. We have had a man by the 
name of Burns. 
Q. What was he? A. Well, he usually was in charge of a 
class of old men — a dozen or twenty. 
Q. In the old men’s ward? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. A good officer? A. What, sir? 
Q. A good officer? A. So far as I know. 
Q. Know anything against him? A. He was intemperate 
at times. 
Q. Drank too much. Was that in the asylum? A. He 
was never in the asylum for the insane that I know of. 
Q. I mean, was he in the institution? A. Oh, he was in 
the institution at different times, several years; I don’t know 
Jiow many, sir. 
Q,, American born, apparently? A. T could not tell you. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2559 
sir ; I should think he might have been of Irish descent, but I 
am not sure of it. 
Q. Now, Capt. Marsh, you wanted to say something the 
other day about Mrs. Marsh’s work, or what she did with the 
inmates’ clothing? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You said the work would tell? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, didn’t she cut up or have cut up or torn up, or 
whatever you please to term it, a portion of that clothing into 
strips to make rugs of? A. She used to have some rugs made, 
sir. 
Q, Out of that material? A. I don’t know that she did, 
and I don’t know but she might have done that. I don’t think 
she did very many out of that material. 
Q. Out of what were those rugs made ? A. Well, we used 
to have some old clothes ourselves. 
Q. Precisely so? A. But I could not say. I have an 
idea that some were made from that old material — the refuse 
of that old material that used to be about the house. 
Q. Were the rugs taken out of the house? A. What did 
you say, sir? 
Q. Were not the rugs taken out of the house? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Sure? A. I am. 
Q. Do you mean to say you are sure they didn’t go out, or 
sure you don’t know ? A. I am sure she didn’t make them to 
go out of the house. 
Q. Whether they were made to go is not the question ; are 
yon sure they didn’t go ? 
Mr. Brown. The Governor didn’t hear your answer. 
The Witness. I said yes, sir. 
Q. Did Charles use to keep chickens? A. Who, sir; 
Charles ? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. What do you mean ? While at the 
almshouse ? 
Q. While he was living near there ? A. I believe he hired 
a house of a man whose wife kept some chickens, and I think 
while he lived in the house he continued the chickens that were 
there ; and I believe they have returned again to the party who 
formerly owned them. 
Q. Then he kept them while he lived there? A. .Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he sell the eggs to the institution? A. What, sir? 2560 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did lie sell the eggs to the institution? A. He might 
have done so sometimes. 
Q. I didn’t ask whether he might have ; did he do so? A. 
I cannot tell you. The book of charges will show who every- 
thing was bought of. 
Q. Did he feed his chickens from the grain of the institution 
when he sold the eggs to the institution? A. I have no knowl- 
edge that he did. 
Q. Well, we will see if we have any by and by. A. Yes, 
sir; very well. 
Q. Now, then, did there use to be any boxes go to Exeter? 
I don’t ask you now what was in them. I only ask if there 
were boxes — boxes and trunks? A. I presume trunks went 
with the folks as they passed up and down. 
Q. Frequently? A. As frequently as the}7 went, most 
likely ; I don’t know that the}7 always carried them. They 
might have been valises. They travelled very much as other 
people do. 
Q. Any boxes besides the trunks? A. 1 think it was 
found that there was a box marked Charles Atwood, was it 
not? 
Q. Well, that we have heard of here. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Any besides that one that you know of? Was that the 
only one? A. Well, sir, you mean to ask whether there were 
boxes sent from the almshouse to Exeter? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. Now, so far as my knowledge extends, 
Governor, I know nothing of that sort. 
Q. Very good. Now, did you ever see any strapped up to 
go? A. No, sir. 
Q. Tied up together? Any sent to Waltham ? A. Not to 
my knowledge. 
Q. Any sent to Reading? A. I have seen there was. 
Q. Leave out the testimony here. A. I don’t know any- 
thing else, sir. 
Q. Very well. Then we are lucky in hitting every time the 
box that came away. Great good luck. Well, you knew about 
those going, didn’t you? A. What, sir? 
Q. You knew about the boxes we have been talking about 
here going? A. With articles of dry-goods? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. I mean those that went to Reading? A. I didn’t know 
it at the time, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2561 
Q. Didn’t know it at the time? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then it was quite possible for boxes to be taken away 
by your family from there without your knowledge? A. Well, 
those were taken away; I hadn’t anything to do with them. 
They belonged to another party, and he took them away when 
he got ready. 
Q. Undoubtedly". Those went, and others could have gone 
just as well without your knowing? Do you own a house in 
Exeter? A. My- wife does, sir. 
Q. How long has she owned it? A. I should think it 
would, be about the time — perhaps since 1870, or something of 
that sort. 
Q. Do you own any- real estate otherwheres? A. No, sir; 
I formerly" owned another piece in Exeter, where my" father and 
mother lived. 
Q. That you sold ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. A good many years ago? A. Some y"ears ago; yes, 
sir. 
Q. When a body was buried and the friends came for it, and 
the body was taken up and the coffin put back in the grave, was 
the headboard left there to indicate that the body was still there ? 
A. I could not tell y-ou, sir. 
Q. There was no other occasion, that you know of, where 
the coffin was buried, except where the body" had been taken 
out and the coffin was put back ? A. I don’t know as I pre- 
cisely- understand your question. Do you ask me if I know of 
a coffin being buried empty-? 
Q. Being buried empty? A. Not to my knowledge, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear of one being buried with some blocks 
of wood in it, before this investigation? A. I heard what Mr. 
Chase said here. 
Q. Did y:ou hear of it before? A. No, sir ; never. 
Q. Was Mr. Chase paid for all his time by the State? A. I 
presume he was. I don’t know anything to the contrary. 
Q. Well, was there any agreement made that he should 
work outside of what the State employ-ed him to do? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Now, then, when did you cease to have anything to do 
with the management of the hospital? A. Whenever the law 
placed it under the care of the physician. 
Q. That was in 1876? A. I should think in 1876. I 
didn't fully cease ; I had to furnish. 2562 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You had to furnish? A. I mean the oversight. 
Q. To answer the requisitions for clothing and things? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, now, then, who had charge of the insane hospital? 
A. The doctor had the medical care of it and I had the over- 
sight of it. He tells me, since I have been on the witness 
stand, that there was a period when he had the oversight of it; 
I had forgotten it. 
Q. When was that period ? A. I think it must have been 
sometime during the first — when the change in the law was 
made ; I cannot say certain about it. 
Q. Now, how long did he have the oversight? A. Well, 
3tou mean the entire oversight? 
Q. The oversight of the insane hospital. A. I could not 
tell, sir; I didn’t ask him nor he didn’t tell me. 
Q. Now, before you asked him, had you any recollection of 
that fact? A. I had not, until he mentioned it. I thought I 
had had the charge of it all the time. 
Q. You thought you had charge of it all the time? A. I 
acted so. 
Q. But upon consulting him you now come to a contrary 
remembrance? A. No; I don’t remember now. I remember 
what he told me. 
Q, You don’t remember now but what you had charge of it? 
A. I think I had. I think I used to see to it and used to go 
to it. 
Q. Well, he said you hadn’t the charge of it? A. I will 
tell you just what he said to me — that he had the appointment 
of the attendants. 
Q. Leave out the appointment of the attendants. A. That 
is just what he told me. 
Q. I don’t care about that; I know there was a struggle be- 
tween you, somewhat, about that. I want to know whether he 
had charge of the hospital. A. Well, sir, I say that I had it. 
Q. You say that 3tou had it. Did give directions about 
what should be done with the patients? A. I did, sir. 
Q. How they should be treated? A. No, sir. I will tell 
you. When there was necessarily restraint, or anything of that 
sort — 
Q. Necessarily’ what? A. When there was restraint re- 
quired, I used alwa3rs, if the doctor was handy, where I could 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2563 
get at him, to consult him about that — or some of the attend- 
ants would. 
Q. When restraint was necessary then the doctor would be 
consulted? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, as to how the patients were treated in the 
hospital. You didn’t — after this change, you took no charge? 
A. In the sick hospital. 
Q. Then people might be knocked down and dragged out, 
as far as you were concerned? A. I should not have been 
responsible unless I had known it. I should not have allowed 
it even then ; that is, I should have protested against it. 
Q. You had no charge? Nobody was ever hurt or struck 
there, was there? A. Well, sir, I have heard what has been 
said here. 
Q. Leave out what has been said here. Did 3’ou hear about 
it at the time ? A. There might have been cases where I heard 
complaint. 
Q. Well, now, did you ever, — do you remember now of ever 
visiting this woman in the cell up-stairs? A. The Barron 
woman ? 
Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did you first go there? A. Oh, well, I could not 
tell you. I could not tell you, Governor, when she was there. 
I know it in my mind. 
Q. Did you see her under French? A. I think I must 
have seen her. 
Q. . Not what you must have done. A. I cannot tell you. 
Q. Very well; that is what I want to know. 
Q. Do you know she was up there under French at all? A. 
I would not swear that she was. 
Q. Do you know she was up there under Dudley at all. A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. You know that from memory? A. 1 remember that, 
sir. 
Q. IIow long, from memory, do you know she was there ; 
up there in that room, I mean. A. Ah — 
Q. That is what I am talking about. A. She was changed, 
as I said the other day, to other places. 
Q. I understand she was changed right off after he got 
there. A. No, sir; no, sir; she was not. I mean this : I 
meant to say the other day and I mean to say now, Governor, 
that she would be in there a time and then she would be 2564 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
changed to the basement, and, perhaps, somewhere else ; I 
don’t know where. 
Q. Was she ever carried back up there after she was once 
brought down to sit in another place? A. Oh, a good many 
times. 
Q. By Dudley, I am talking of now, sir. A. Well, Dud- 
ley left her there. That Barron woman was there three years. 
I cannot tell you what three }Tears they were ; then she was 
removed to Worcester. 
Q. To Worcester? A. I think it was to Worcester. 
Q. Do you know why she was removed ? By whose orders 
was she removed to Worcester? A. I think she must have 
been removed by Mr. Wriglitington. That would be an ema- 
nation of the board of health, lunacy and charity if the board 
was in existence ; if not, it was the board of state charities. 
Gov. Butler. The same board, only another name. 
Q. You have said of Mr. Dudley, I believe, that one cause 
of his removal was that he played croquet. Is that so? A. 
No, sir; I said that was among the things — that he, in my 
judgment, neglected, more than he ought to, the patients. 
Q. But you said he was removed for that; and when asked 
when that was you said that he played croquet in the afternoon. 
And then you said that he was removed for impudence to Mrs. 
Marsh? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you hear the impudence? A. No, sir. She told 
me immediately what had taken place. 
Q. Mrs. Marsh and Mr. Dudley had had some words or 
difficulty ? A. I sent her over there to look after something 
that 1 thought should be looked after. 
Q. They had some words? A. I suppose so. 
Q. They had some words and you removed him? A. That 
was it. 
Q. For that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Barker; did yon remove him? A. No, sir; I 
think he resigned to go into some kind of business in Boston. 
Q. Of his own accord? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And his wife went witli him, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And nobody lias a right to say that lie was a discharged 
man? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir; he was not discharged b}T me ; was 
not discharged by anybody. He voluntarily resigned. 
Q. He voluntarily resigned to go into business. Do 30U 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2565 
know who — have you ever authorized any publication to be 
made that he was a discharged man? A. I don’t remember 
that I ever have, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, I understand you to say that at a certain time 
the way the patients were washed was that the water was let 
into the pool and heated over night, and then dipped out into 
tubs for bathing. A. I don’t know just when ; I think when I 
first went to Tewksbury the inmates were bathed in these large 
pools or vats, or tanks they used to call them. 
Q. What? A. Tanks, — bathing tanks. 
Q. A number of them together? A. Well, yes, sir; I 
don’t know how many were bathed ; that was left to the discre- 
tion of the party in charge. 
Q. Well, by the party in charge you mean— A. The at- 
tendants. 
Q. The attendants? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And as many were bathed as he chose to put in? A. He 
or she. They were all over the house. That was the means 
provided when I first went there. 
Q. And that rule applied all over the house? A. Well, 
there were two of these places in the old wooden building. 
Q. One for the men and one for the women? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that continued down to what time? A. The books 
will tell. I should think some six or eight years after I went 
there. I have to make this from my recollection. 
Q. Wll you say it didn’t continue ten years? A. Would 
I say not ten years ? 
Q. Will you say it was not ten years? A. No, sir; I 
should be governed by the record. 
Q. Then some separate bath-tubs were put in ; four, I be- 
lieve. A. That is those four 1 spoke of, if you are alluding 
to my testimony. The four were put into the first half of the 
insane building, being two in each part, with one of those 
pools. 
Q. When the new insane building was fixed? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Was there any bathing apparatus put in there other than 
these tanks, until the insane building was made? A. Those, 
I think, were the first that were put in. 
Q. And they were put in the insane building? A. I am 
not sure theyjnigfit not have been placed before that time in 
the other. 2566 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Tell me as it stands in your mind. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well, then. These tubs that were put in the insane 
buildingwere for the use of the insane? A. Yes, sir ; men and 
women. 
Q. Men and women; two on each side? The old tanks 
remained there still for the paupers? A. They remained there 
till—when they were taken out they were all taken out and 
individual bath-tubs were substituted; whenever that period 
was. 
Q. Now, when they were taken out; how late was that when 
they w'ere finally taken out? A. You are speaking of the 
tanks? 
Q. Of the tanks? When were they finally removed? A. I 
could not tell you the precise time. 
Q. Well, without telling the precise time, was not that done 
until 1876? A. I should think not, sir. That was not done 
until after the insane building was built? I think the insane 
building was built about seventeen years ago. 
Q. And then five or six years after that before the tanks were 
taken out? A. I don’t think it could have been as long as that. 
Q. Well, up to the time the tanks were taken out, the pau- 
pers were bathed in them, as many as the attendant chose at a 
time — up to the time they were got rid of, were the}7? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And wrhen the bath-tubs were put in, the means of heat- 
ing them was to heat the water in the tank and dip it out, as 
you told us? A. That was in the insane building, sir. 
Q. That was in the insane building? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that was dipped out in buckets and poured in? A. 
Yes, sir. I am not sure, Governor, but wdiat there might have 
been pipes for drawing in cold water, and perhaps some for let- 
ting in steam. 
Q. What was, then, the advantage or the necessity of dipping 
this hot water from the tank? A. I will tell you, sir ; it was 
only to bathe a little more readily than we could by heating 
the water for each individual. 
Q. I undertook to say that to the committee, and one of 
your women swore it could be done at the rate of 80 in three 
hours. A. Well, I can conceive of its taking some time to 
heat each individual bath ; whereas, if it colud be drawn out and 
dipped in, it could be done, in my judgment, more rapidly. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2567 
Q, Then that required to be taken up in pails by the attend- 
ant and put in? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, I believe we understand now about that bathing ; 
now, where, for the last ten years have you bought the bulk of 
3’our clothing? A. I should think the bulk of it had been 
bought of Isaac Fenno & Co., — the men’s clothing. 
Q. The women’s clothing, I suppose, is substantially made 
there? A. That has been generally made at the institution, 
all of it. 
Q. How much ; without looking at the accounts, how much 
of the clothing was bought at Fenno’s ? — men’s clothing, A. 
Well, substantially all of it, sir, after I began trading with 
them. 
A. When did you begin trading with them? A. I should 
have to refer to the books for that, sir. I have been in that 
habit, and that is why I say it; I should be ready to tell if I 
knew, but I have been in the habit, always, of referring to my 
books for anything I sought, and not keeping it in mind. 
Q. Well, whom did you buj" from before? A. Well, at 
different times I have bought of Charles Winslow, — I think it 
was Winslow & Co. He afterwards became an insane man and 
was taken to Cambridge. And I bought of Tucker, Sanborn & 
Co. 
Q. Whom did you buy from directly before Fenno ? A. I 
don’t know that I could tell you, but I should have the impres- 
sion it was Burdett — 
Mr. Brown. Whitten & Young? 
The Witness. Burdett, Whitten & Young. 
Q. Can you tell me by reference to your books when you 
commenced buying of Fenno? A. It can be told. I don’t 
know as I can tell by turning readily to it now. 
Q. After }'ou commenced trading with Fenno, you told me 
you bought all there? A. Yes, sir. No; I beg 
your pardon, sir; I have bought — well, I say substantially; 
let it remain just as I said. I bought some of parties in Phila- 
delphia, but the major part has been bought of Fenno. The 
firm in Philadelphia has been Kirwin, Stoddard & Co. 
Gov. Butler. I believe that is all, Capt. Marsh. 
Mr. Brown. There are one or two questions that I find I 
omitted. 2568 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. I meant to have asked you if }rou ever heard of any act 
of cruelty committed upon any of the inmates except what have 
been referred to in your cross-examination? A. I don’t recol- 
lect of any, sir. 
Q. Did you ever have complaint made to 30U that Dr. 
Lathrop had abused any person in the institution b}' kicking or 
striking in any way? A. No, sir; 1 don’t remember that I 
ever did. I think Dr. Lathrop would be about the last man to 
kick anybody. 
Q. I want to ask you about wbat is the value of that house 
at Exeter. A. I think it is insured for about $5,000. 
Q. What did you pay for it? A. I think in that neighbor- 
hood. 
Q. In 1870? A. Yes, sir; about that. 
Q. Is that the house occupied by Mrs. Atwood ? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Near the depot? A. It is on Lincoln Street. 
Q. Now, Captain Marsh, I want to ask you: you said you 
undertook to look out for, to look after, with proper diligence, 
the property of the Commonwealth. Did you ever have any 
reason to suspect that any property of the Commonwealth had 
gone either to Mrs. Atwood or to Mrs. Davis at Exeter or else- 
where? A. Well, I had very good reason for knowing there 
had none gone. 
Q. You said something about two barrels of apples on cross- 
examination ; I want you to tell us about those. A. There ivas 
two barrels of apples sent there one season — I don’t know' what 
year it was — there was one season when there was a great 
abundance of crop, and we could scarcely take care of it. We 
had filled every empty cask we could get with vinegar, and they 
were using them by the bushel everywhere. One day, at a meet- 
ing of the trustees, m3' wife said to Mr. Nourse — 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think we will have that. 
The Witness. — “I would like to send” — 
Mr. Brown. Never mind what she said to Mr. Nourse ; but 
if, in consequence of the conversation, anything was done, state 
what it was. 
The Witness. Well, sir, they were sent because she had 
permission from Mr. Nourse to do it, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2569 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Mrs. Marsh got permission? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You mean your wife? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, with that exception, have you any knowledge that 
any property of the Commonwealth went in any way to any 
member of your family? A. I think I said in my direct ex- 
amination, not a dime’s worth. 
Q. I meant to haAre asked yon on your direct examination 
in regard to John H. Chase; that is, the senior Chase. Was 
he discharged? A. He was; yes, sir. 
Q. For what? A. Well, sir, for intemperance. 
Q. Had you known him for many years? A. I had known 
him from a little boy. 
Q. From a little boy ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Had you ever had to do with his education? A. Sim- 
ply in the Sunday school; he was a Sunday-school boy of mine. 
I felt an interest in him ; his father and mother were very fine 
folks and very good friends of mine. 
Q. Was this the first occasion — was he discharged on the 
first occasion of his drunkenness? A. No, sir. 
Q. How many times had it taken place?. A. I knew him 
to be an intemperate man when I hired him. His friends said 
that he had been making a very strong effort to recover from 
his intemperate habits and wanted me to give him employment; 
and I took him upon trial. I told my board of trustees when I 
named him to them that I had known him from a boy, — 
Gov. Butler. We won’t go into that. 
The Witness. That he was a man of intemperate habits. 
Gov. Butler. Stop a moment. I object. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Never mind what you told the trus- 
tees. You hired him and knew that was the fact? A. Yes, 
sir ; I hired him. 
Q. How long did you keep him straight? A. I should 
think in the neighborhood of ten months. 
Q. Without his drinking? A. Without my knowing it. 
Q. What happened then? A. He broke down — very 
bad. 
Q. Did you have any conversation with him? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. What was it? A. I told him I could not continue to 
hire him; that he might remain until the meeting of the board 
of trustees or inspectors whatever they might have been at 2570 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that time — and if lie had anything that he wanted to say to 
them, and they should be willing to make another trial, I would 
consent to it, or something like that. 
Q. Did you make another trial of him? A. I did, sir. 
Q. When did he next go astray ? 
Gov. Butler. That is to say, the trustees did ? 
Mr. Brown. The trustees. 
The Witness. It was so long ago I don’t remember ; it was 
a few months. 
Q. Then he was finally discharged on the third occasion, 
was he? A. The second, was it not? 
Gov. Butler. The second. 
Mr. Brown. The second or third. 
The Witness. The second or third. 
Q. The bond which has been put in here of the College of 
Physicians and Surgeons, I notice, is of recent date. Was that 
given before — do 3*011 recollect whether that was given before 
any bodies had been delivered to them? A. I didn’t hear 
what said. 
Q. Was that bond given b3* the College of Ph3’sicians and 
Surgeons given before an3* bodies had been delivered to them? 
A. I think so, sir. 
Mr. Brown. The3* were recently chartered, I believe. 
Gov. Butler. What is that called ; Boston College? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, during the twenty-five 3*ears 3*011 were 
connected with that institution did 3*011 ever, in a single instance, 
pay a private debt with the funds of the Commonwealth? A. 
Never. 
Gov. Butler. WI13*, 3*011 went over that. 
Mr. Brown. I asked the question in view of a question that 
was put b3* yourself. 
Gov. Butler. M3’ cross-examination was on the subject of 
coal. 
The Witness. The books of the institution, Mr. Brown, 
show — 
Gov. Butler. Well, pardon me, sir; I object. Stop there. 
The WiTNess. Do 3*011 object to my saying the books show? 
Gov. Butler. I object to what 3*011 are sa3*ing ; 3*es. I have 
been all over that of the books — and 3*011 didn’t keep them. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I take occasion now to call 
upon His Excellency for the production of a letter signed by 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2571 
F. H. Nourse, George P. Elliot and William R. Spalding, 
dated at Tewksbury bn the 4th day of September, 187G, a copy 
of which I find extended — which was addressed to His Excel- 
lency the governor at that time ; a copy of which — I should 
say it was dated Aug. 31, 1876 — a copy of which letter is 
extended on the records of the board of inspectors, being the 
record of a meeting held at Tewksbury, Sept. 4, 1876. I call 
for it in order that if it should not be produced I may read the 
copy which is contained in this record. 
Gov. Butler.- If }’Ou will just let me look at it, so I may 
know where to find the letter, I will have the letter looked for. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I have understood, Capt. Marsh, in 
regard to the reports which you have referred to — 
Gov. Butler. In regard to what? 
Mr. Brown. The reports. 
Q. I have understood with regard to the reports which have 
been referred to — the almshouse reports — that they were 
written in the rough by yourself in ever}’ instance? A. I said 
some were written by me, and in others my thoughts were put 
in my own shape, and then handed to somebod}' to polish up ; 
in other words, to put in better language than I could use. 
Q. Now, Captain, on your cross-examination — 
Gov. Butler. That puts me in mind of a question I omitted 
to ask this witness. 
Mr. Brown. Will you ask him now ? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Re-cross examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Do 3'ou remember a committee of the legislature, con- 
taining Mr. Brown of West Newbury — when a committee, one 
of whom was Mr. Brown of West Newbury, and the other a 
Mr. Baldwin, I think, a committee of the legislature inspected 
your premises? A. Do I remember? 
Q. Yes; do you remember of such a case? A. What 
were they ? 
Q. They were a committee of the legislature. A. Of the 
charitable committee. 
Q. No, sir; I don’t know whether they were of the chari- 
table committee or not. They made a report to the legislature. 
I believe you spoke about it once when the Newbury port man 
was there? A. It was not me, I think, sir. 
Q. Do you remember their making a report — of their 2572 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
coming there and making a report? A. All I remember is 
this, sir; that when the investigation was had in 1876, I think, 
there was a minority report signed by7 Mr. Browm. Is that 
what you refer to ? 
Q. No, sir. I refer to the report that those two gentlemen 
made to the legislature, they7 being members of a committee of 
the legislature sent there to investigate or inspect? A. When 
what is known as the chapel was built, I think I said something 
like this, sir : that two of the governor’s council came up, one 
being a Newbury port man. 
Q. Mr. Couch? A. Mr. Couch and Mr. James Sturgis. 
Gov. Butler. The men [ refer to were members of the 
legislature and one was a West Newbury7 man, Mr. Brown. 1 
will send down and get some memoranda. 
Mr. Brown. Was not the Newbuiyport man’s name Dailey7? 
Gov. Butler. Dailey or Bailey, and Mr. Brown. I will 
have it here in a minute. 
Ile-direct examination by Mr. Brown (resumed) 
Q. You said on cross-examination in reply to a question of 
the governor’s, that the food could have been of a better quality 
if the appropriation had been larger. I want to ask whether 
this was the fact; that having a certain amount taken out of 
the appropriation for salaries, what remained you were to run 
the institution with ; and that you in any way had to discrimi- 
nate in regard to the quality of l'ood in order to make that ap- 
propriation last through the year — the quality7 and variety, for 
instance? A. Yes. What I meant to say was, that I could 
not get the variety that some of the people claimed sick pa- 
tients should have. I think the ordinary, the usual food of the 
house is good enough. I have been complained of both ways. 
On one side the food was well enough, and on the other not 
well enough. I have tried to keep a medium, and have tried to 
give them what I thought they7 ought to be satisfied with. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Complained of on both sides by 
the inmates? A. No, sir; I mean by the public. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, the public. I thought it was strange if 
the inmates complained that the food was too good. 
Q. (Byr Mr. Brown.) The board of state charities was 
organized in 1879, was it not? 
Gov. Butler. No ; the hoard of lunacy. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2573 
Mr. Brown. Well, the state hoard of health, lunacy and 
charity, if the three can be combined. 
Q. The present board was organized in 1879? A. I 
should think it was. 
Q. And they have cut down your appropriation, your esti- 
mate, have they not? 
Gov. Butler. They have nothing to do with it. 
The Witness. Yes, sir. If there has been any change, 
they have made it, or caused it to lie made. 
Gov. Butler. Does Capt. Marsh mean to say they have cut 
it down ? 
Mr. Brown. They go before the committee and say it is too 
much. 
The Witness. Usually Mr. Sanborn has been representing 
the board. 
Gov. Butler. No; he has not been secretary until within 
nine months; if he went at all, he went in his capacity as in- 
spector. 
The Witness. That may have been, sir. 
Gov. Butler. He did not go as secretary because he has 
not been secretary more than eight or nine months. 
The Witness. Did I say secretary? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
The Witness. I didn’t intend to. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now in regard to these insane people 
coming to the institution. In one of your reports }'ou mention 
the fact that they might be boarded cheaper at the almshouse, 
cheaper than at the hospitals ; and the governor asked you if 
you caused them to be brought to the institution. What was 
the fact, if you remember it? 
Gov. Butler. The report shows. 
The Witness. I cannot tell 3rou, it is so long ago. You 
had better refer to the reports. 
Q. Now, you have said that through a series of years there 
was grain burnt which was used as coffee. Do I understand 
you to mean that that was prepared as coffee before it was 
brought to the institution ? A. What are you now speaking 
of, sir? 
Q. In regard to the grain that was burnt for use as coffee? 
A. I am not quite sure. I am of the impression that when I 
first went there grain was the principal material used for the 
supposed coffee ; and after a time — this is a mere matter of 2574 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
recollection ; I don’t want to be positive about it — I think we 
must have bought the grain and then had it roasted. We used 
to grind it because we had a mill. I think we had a mill put in 
for grinding grain, and I think we used to grind coffee in the 
same mill. I think we must have had it roasted outside and 
then we ground it. And after a time we had apparatus put in 
for burning it, so as to burn coffee, and that was used until the 
power was taken awa}\ 
Q. Now, in regard to this coffee, or preparation, whatever it 
was, that came from Chicago; what was the quality of that? 
A. Well, sir, I used to use it myself on my own table. 
Q. On your own table? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you used it for the inmates? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. It was a cheaper grade of material than coffee, was it? 
A. It was represented to me as being a very nice article with 
good flavor. 
Gov. Butler. An article of coffee or a substitute for coffee? 
Mr. Brown. A substitute for coffee. 
Q. It was called coffee, was it not? Was it invoiced as 
coffee, or what was it? A. I don’t remember; I should sa}r 
they had a peculiar mark, a trade mark for it — I don’t remem- 
ber what. It used to come shipped in barrels. 
Q. Came shipped in barrels. A. We didn’t use that a very 
great while. 
Q. Now what was the occasion of }Tour using this prepared 
grain; was it simply a matter of economy? A. I found that 
to be in use when I went there. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now which do you mean? A. I 
mean rye and barley. 
Q. I thought you meant coffee. A. No, sir. This Chi- 
cago material was not used a great while. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) What led you to continue the use 
of burnt rye as a substitute? Was it a matter of economy or 
some other thing? A. I found it had been used and I contin- 
ued to use it. It used to make a good drink, although it was 
not coffee. I have drunk gallons of it. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; rye makes a good drink when it is not 
coffee. 
Mr. Brown. Walnuts, you know, are first-rate. 
The Witness. There are a good many things that make good 
coffee — good drink, if 3tou please. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Was the matter whether you 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2575 
should always live on pauper’s diet when there with your family 
at the almshouse ever under discussion, ever the subject of 
remark, contract, or anything of that sort? A. Not to my 
knowledge, sir. 
Q. Have you ever bad any fault found with you, either by 
the public or the inspectors, because you did have a little larger 
list of articles upon your table than was had upon the table of 
the inmates? A. Not to m}T knowledge. 
Gov. Butler. My difficulty is, Mr. Brown, not that, but 
that he should have lived at all upon the institution. 
The Witness. I understand that to be the governor’s ob- 
jection. Your objection is to having any living ; any board — 
Gov. Butler. Any board at the public expense. Because, 
the same words exactly, in the statute, at the State prison are 
construed the other way. 
The Witness. The condition of things, — perhaps this is 
not evidence, but if you will allow me, — the condition of things 
is different. At Tewksbury they cannot board. The district 
schoolteacher has to go to Lowell. There is no building — 
there is no house that can be hired ; there is not any means of 
support. 9 
Gov. Butler. That is not it, Capt. Marsh. 
The Witness. I don’t want to put it in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. This is the difference. The statute says that 
you shall live in the building; but it does not say that you shall 
live at the public expense in the building. Now, the living in 
the building was right, because that was a thing given you ; and 
you were to go there as superintendent at so much salary, and 
with the right to live in the building. Now, in the case of the 
State prison, the same words — that the warden shall live in 
the prison or in the building — are used there ; and there it is con- 
strued, and always has been, that the warden must pay; he 
shall live in the building and pay for his own living, and not 
live at public expense. Subsequently, there have been the State 
Reform School, the State Primary School and the Reformatory 
Prison for Women, where the statute is that the officers shall 
live in the building, at public expense, at public charge. So 
that there has no power been given you ever to have a dollar’s 
worth of meat. 
The Witness. Well, I followed what had been the custom 
of my predecessor. 2576 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Very likely. I don’t mean to say that you 
have not. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That leads me to this: What has 
been your salary — the highest salary that you have received as 
superintendent of the almshouse? A. Twelve hundred and 
eighteen hundred dollars. 
Q. For how many years did you'have $1,800 dollars? A. I 
cannot tell, unless you will allow me to refer to the books. 
Q. I don’t care to be accurate, but generally. A. My im- 
pression is that my salary was raised twice ; perhaps from $1,200 
to $1,500 and to $1,800. I think the highest salary, of $1,800, 
was fixed when Governor Bullock was governor. I think he 
approved of $1,800. 
Q. Now, Capt. Marsh, when }’ou went there at a salary of 
$1,200,—whether rightly or wrongly, I won’t say anything 
about it, — was it understood that you should have your living 
in addition to your salary? A. I don’t know that there was 
any understanding about it. My predecessor had been there 
and had his living, and I took his place, and supposed it was all 
right; nothing was said. 
Q. Would you have stayed there at a salary of $1,200 if }rou 
were to pay your own living expenses out of that? A. I 
should not have gone there if 1 had known it. 
Q. Has there been any year when you would have stayed 
there for the salary you received if you had had to pay your 
living expenses out of it? A. No, sir. 
Q. I have now my memoranda. Hayden Brown of West 
Newbury, and Daniel Bailey, were the two committeemen who 
visited yon. Do you remember them? A. I don’t recollect 
Mr. Brown, that I remember of. 1 remember Mr. Bailey. 
There are some circumstances why I remember him. He told 
me what his business was, or something of that sort. 
Q. Well, when did they visit }Tou? A. I could not tell 
you, Governor. 1 had forgotten there was any such visit, sir. 
They were on the public charitable committee, and visited with 
the committee there. A part of the committee visited before 
the hearing was given, and I think the}' were on the committee. 
I have no recollection of their visiting only as the committee 
visited. TheyT might have done so. 
Gov. Butler. They visited as a committee. 
lie-cross examination by Gov. Butler (resumed). 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2577 
Q. You have alwa}rs enjoyed good health since you have 
been at the institution, have j'ou? A. I have had rheumatism 
two or three times. 
Q. Has there been any period of time that 3011 have been 
confined to your room bj’ illness for several days so that you 
didn’t get out? A. Except as I have been troubled with rheu- 
matism ; I think I might have been confined to the house two 
or three days ; I would not say it was not a week. 
Q. So that, with that exception of two or three days or a 
week, you have been on duty the entire twenty-five years? A. 
I have been absent, I think four times during my twenty-five 
years. 
Q. Four times? A. I should think so. 
Q. How long was that absence? A. I think in the fall of 
1869 I became considerably out of health, and the physician 
recommended me to take respite, and I then went to California ; 
that was the first year the road was open. I went to Gov. Claflin 
— after talking with my inspectors about it, I went to Gov. 
Claflin and got permission to go, and I think then I was gone 
about six weeks. Then, about five years after that, I took my 
wife and grand-daughter and went down to Bangor, St. John, 
Halifax, Frederickton, and all about the country there, — over 
to Dartmouth, — to see the country. I was gone then thirteen 
days. 1 took my daughter Nellie and went to the Adirondacks, 
and was gone two weeks ; and two years ago I went as far west 
as Dakota. 
Q. I want to ask you this question, Captain, and see if you 
can l'ecollect anything of this kind : Do 3Tou recollect that any 
of your cows have had twins? A. I don’t recollect the fact, 
only as my herdsman says there are two heifers in milk that are 
twin sisters. 
Q. Only one instance where they have had twins to your 
knowledge? A. I don’t remember anjr more, sir. I really 
don’t remember that, sir, but I have been shown the sick list. 
Q. You spoke about raising calves up to a certain period, 
and then you commenced selling those small calves for bob veal; 
what was the fact about that? A. Well, as I had more cows, 
of course there were more calves to be disposed of. I used to 
have them skinned and buried. I never should have got into 
the business of selling them, I think ; I didn’t like the idea. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown (resumed). 2578 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Well, when was it; can }rou give the date, about, when 
you first began to sell those calves a day or two old? A. I 
don’t believe I could fix it: it might have been three or four 
years. 
Q. Did you read that published letter from Frank Sanborn 
to Alexander H. Rice, when he was governor, dated March 23, 
1876? A. It didn’t come to me, sir ; I didn’t see it. 
Q. Did you see it printed in this case? A. I presume I 
saw it. 
Q. In connection with this case? A. I don’t know that I 
did, sir. 
Q. Well, do you recollect whether that letter was ever referred 
to the inspectors or trustees in that year, 1876? A. The gov- 
ernor, }Tou will remember, asked me if I ever called for an in- 
vestigation. I answered to the committee that I didn’t think 
enough about it; I didn’t remember what the charge was 
But I was afterwards told that it was so referred. So it was 
sent by the governor to the trustees. 
Q. Now, you said in answer to a question put to you by the 
governor, that 37ou didn’t take interest enough in the charge that 
your wife had been taking the clothing of inmates, to look into 
it. Now, I want you to tell me why. A. Well, sir, I knew 
it was not true. 
Q. You knew it was not true. Do you recollect whether 
personally you called the attention of the trustees to the charge 
that was made at that time? A. B}t Mr. Sanborn, do you 
mean ? 
Gov. Butler. This was not made by Mr. Sanborn. 
Mr. Brown. The charge made to the governor by Mr. San- 
born. 
Gov. Butler. He did not make any charge. The charge in 
that letter was the letter of the board, not by him. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; but my question was whether he heard of 
that. 
Gov. Butler. You put it as made by Mr. Sanborn. It was 
the charge of the board. One of the objections was that San- 
born didn’t make it himself when he went before the investigat- 
ing committee. 
Q. Now, something has been said about two carloads of 
coal — 
Gov. Butler. Stop a moment. You examined about that, 
and 1 cross-examined. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2579 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; but he brought out something in answer 
to your cross-examination which you would not let him state — 
something in regard to the' transportation of the coal from the 
depot to the almshouse ; and I wanted to ask him about that. 
Q. Who transported, who carted that coal from the depot to 
the almshouse, if you recollect? A. Well, all the coal that the 
almshouse uses is transported by the teams belonging to the 
almshouse. 
Gov. Butler. That is what he said before. The inmates 
shovel it. 
Q. Do you know what particular person had to do with that 
particular coal? A. No, 1 do not. 
Q. I omitted to ask you this question in regard to Mrs. Pope : 
whether there was a difference which existed between you and 
Mrs. Pope, for any cause, in connection with which she left the 
institution ? A. When she left, sir, she left because her hus- 
band had died there. She accompanied the remains to where 
the}’ were to be buried — to Canada, or wherever it was. She 
was gone, I don’t know how long, and on her return, of course, 
the place of cook had been filled. She wanted me to give her 
some place, and I hadn’t any to give her, and didn’t; and 1 
suppose she took offence. 
Q. Did she say anything about it to you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did she say? You say she was offended. A. I 
cannot remember the words she used. L know she was offended 
about it. 
Q. You have been asked in regard to Mr. Barker and Mrs. 
Barker ; was there any cause of complaint against Mrs. Barker? 
A. I never had any. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon ; I must object. I simply asked 
if they were discharged ; that is all. And you have already 
gone into that before. 
Mr. Brown. I believe that is all, Captain. 
Gov. Butler. I want to ask you a few more questions. 
Q. Do you pay the expenses of this investigation? A. 
Well, that is a private matter, Governor. 
Q. Well, pardon me ; I think not. Hold on a moment. I 
think it is not a private matter. You will answer the question 
till otherwise directed. A. I object to answering the question. 
Q. I don’t hear you. A. I say 1 regard that as a private 
Re-cross examination by Gov. Butler resumed. 2580 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
matter. It lias nothing to do with the management of the in- 
stitution. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes; the investigation has a great deal 
to do with the management of the institution. 
The Witness. I decline to answer. 
Gov. Butler. I insist upon an answer. 
The Chairman. I didn’t quite get the question, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. The question is, who pays for the defence of 
this investigation. 
Mr. Brown. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that was not the ques- 
tion tiiat was put to the witness. The question put to him was 
whether he paid the expenses of this investigation. 
Gov. Butler. I am content to take it so — or any part of 
them. We will not quibble. I wanted to go into that subject; 
I don’t want to object to any form of words, because it is not 
words but the fact that I want. 
The Chairman. It don’t seem to .me, really, that this has 
anything to do with the management of the affairs at the 
Tewksbury almshouse. I will submit it to the committee, if 
you insist. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I insist upon the question. I think it 
will throw light upon this matter to my mind and to the minds 
of the committee. Here are witnesses brought here from great 
distances ; here are very large expenses incurred ; and I think 
if there is an}’ public body behind, paying the expenses, why, 
then we know that there is a large interest somewhere to have 
this — to affect — I am trying to use soft words about it — to 
affect the testimony of witnesses ; that there is somebody, if he 
does not pay them — and it would be very wonderful if he did, 
under the circumstances. Then I want to show the difficulties 
under which the investigation labors, so far as the presentation 
of it is concerned, and whether the Commonwealth is put at 
the expense of this prolonged investigation by Capt. Marsh or by 
some other body of men. The investigation is a very import- 
ant part of the management of the Tewksbury almshouse ; lias 
had its effect upon it. Now, if there is any body of men, or- 
ganized body of men, behind this defence, why, then I can 
understand the influences, the terrorism that would be brought 
upon the witnesses, in behalf of the prosecution. If there is lio 
such body of men, then I can understand very well that they 
are freer to act and freer to testify. I remember many years 
ago that a question involved before a court came up, and there 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2581 
was supposed to be behind the defence a bod}’ of men very 
largely interested in the defence. And the question was put to 
the witnesses, in order to show their bias, whether there was 
any such body of men. I refer, Mr. Chairman, to an investiga- 
tion which you and I are probably old enough to remember, but 
which the younger gentlemen of the committee do not remem- 
ber, — the Morgan investigation of the Masonic order. Certain 
people were being tried for the supposed abduction of Morgan. 
And the question was pressed in those trials whether the 
Masonic fraternity had subscribed money and means to carry 
on the defence, or whether the defence were defended as usual; 
whether it was put on the defendants'1, and what was the effect 
upon the minds of the witnesses. On the same ground I have 
raised the question here. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, the people of Massachusetts 
have been for twenty-nine years, about, interested in the running 
of this institution at Tewksbury. They have, from year to year, 
required their legislature, when assembled, to appropriate money 
for the running of this institution. And we have seen how, 
during that twenty-nine years, the institution has grown from a 
small beginning until it is now one of the largest institutions, if 
not the largest institution, of its kind in the United States. 
Now, sir, for the first time in the history of the Commonwealth 
its institution has been assailed. The power of the executive 
department, at tlie head of which stands one of the ablest, the 
most ingenious and the most persevering men of his time, with 
all the power and the force and the money at the command of 
the executive department, has been bent upon this investigation. 
I submit to the candid judgment of the people of this Common- 
wealth whether up to this moment, beyond the freak of a 
student, or the misplacing of five dollars which resulted from the 
sale of some pig, anything else has yet been discovered except 
that which is in accordance with a steady, conscientious, earnest 
growth of that benevolence which has brought about, and which 
has succeded in producing and establishing this home, where every 
man in this community, without regard to his nationality, with- 
out regard to his race or color, finds in the moment of distress 
the succor and sanctuary which he so long desires. Now, His 
Excellency says that this defence has been protracted. Why, 
sir, I have not taken only one minute to his four since I opened 
this defence. His Excellency took twenty-eight days in putting 
in his case, and I am on my twenty-fifth. Expense! His; 2582 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Excellency understands very vvell who pays the expense of this 
investigation. His Excellency is constantly — I think almost 
daily — putting his signature to the bills which are to be paid 
for the conduct of this investigation. I find by reference to the 
auditor’s office that the stenographer’s bill up to this moment is 
about $8,000, $2,500 of which has been paid. I find that the 
witness fees alone, — experts and witness fees, — amount to 
between $800 and $1,000. So that the total expense of finding 
out who got the money for this pig, and what students are 
guilty of the freak which resulted in the tanning of a piece of 
negro’s skin, had amounted up to last Saturday to $8,757.67. 
And I don’t wonder he wants to know who is going to pay the 
expenses of this investigation. 
Gov. Butler. That is not the question 1 ask. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t wonder that he hesitates to go before 
the people of this Commonwealth and ask them to pay the ex- 
penses of- this investigation. If he simply desires to know 
whether any organized body of men are behind Capt. Marsh for 
the purpose of paying these expenses, I am perfectly willing 
that Capt. Marsh should answer all he knows about — perfectly 
willing. But I might just as well ask him, or ask his witnesses, 
who pays for the expenses of the executive department. I 
might as well ask him why the district police in this case have 
required an expenditure of upwards of $200 for travelling ex- 
penses in this investigation. Just as legitimate! just as legit- 
imate ! — nothing to do with this case whatever. But lest there 
might be some misconception upon this subject, I sa}_ to you, 
Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, that every man and woman in 
this Commonwealth has the right to contribute to the expenses 
of the defence where the good name and the honor of the Com- 
monwealth is at stake. [Applause and laughter.] 
Gov. Butler. * We have had another explosion of fire-wTorks. 
What is the question? The question is not what this investi- 
gation has cost the Commonwealth ; that will all appear in the 
auditor’s report; that cannot be denied, that cannot be winked 
out of sight, and nobody wants it winked out of sight. The 
question is, who is paying for the defence? That is the ques- 
tion, and that is the only question, l submit. Now it has been 
said here, rather a re-hash — no, not a re-hash ; only a repeti- 
tion of an editorial written in the “ Traveller ” last night —- 
[Applause.] 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2583 
The Chairman. This applause must cease. The committee 
cannot be disturbed. 
Gov. Butler. That all that has been shown has been but 
the freak of some student skinning a negro. Well, to show the 
terrible condition of a man’s mind who could so misrepresent, I 
have got specimens of five different skins of human beings, only 
one a negro, and I have presented here a pair of shoes all ready 
to be put on to the foot of some person who would buy them, 
cut out from the breast of a white woman [applause] ; and I 
have got the whole skin of the back of another woman. What 
means this misrepresentation? This stands before the commit- 
tee and before }’ou the freak of a negro ! — no, I beg the negro’s 
pardon, — the freak of a student. Oh, no ! It got to be a com- 
merce. I found them in the stores, I found them on the work- 
bench, I found them in the tanneries. And if this has cost 
$20,000 — this investigation — I am ready to go before the peo- 
ple of the Commonwealth or any other bod}’ of people, if it has 
accomplished nothing more than to stop this “ new industry.” 
[Laughter and applause.] I have done enough, and the money 
is well spent. Now that is one thing that has been said. 
Another thing has been said : that this institution never has 
been assailed before. God help us ! What must be a man’s 
mind that would say that? Rightly or wrongly, I don’t 
say now, but we have heard that it has been twice investigated 
before the legislature already, and once a serious investigation. 
And we were told- over and over again that in consequence of 
that investigation changes had been made which purified it 
somewhat. It has been shown that for years and }'ears it was 
brought before the governor of the Commonwealth. Charges 
of murder, charges of theft, charges of embezzlement, charges 
of cruelty — those were the charges. And from year to year 
they were renewed before the governor by the board of state 
charities, the official organ of the Commonwealth. And such 
was the power of this institution as a political machine that the 
governor was afraid to examine in reply to these charges any- 
thing more than how clean the dish-rags were. [Applause.] 
Not one word about the murder was asked ; not one word about 
the cruelties. This has all been before us, and it is said that 
this is the first time. Again, we are told that this was a very 
little institution when it was taken up by Capt. Marsh. There 
were as many people in it then as there are now ; and so the re- 
ports shQW, Jt has not grown up. And then this othey most 2584 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
wonderful statement was made : that here was a home, a refuge, 
a harbor into which we all want to go—[laughter]—to eat and 
drink burnt rye for coffee and be knocked down by brutal men; 
or, if cared for at all, cared for by pretty young women who are 
called matrons. We have had three or four specimens of them 
here,— young girls just out of school,—paying the price that 
was wanted, upon the testimony, for experienced nurses. If 
the gentleman insists upon arguing his case beforehand, I am 
ready. 
The Chairman. I think, Governor, the case has been suffi- 
ciently argued. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; you let him do it and never said 
a word. I was very glad he opened the door and I am not 
going to have it closed on me until I get through. [Applause.] 
If 3Tou had stopped him I would not have said a word. 
Now, then, it is said that the whole of the money in the 
hands of the executive has been used for this purpose—in this 
investigation. Well, that is true; because there isn’t any 
there ; not a dollar, not one ; and the only money that has been 
spent by the executive has been upon the approval of this com- 
mittee that can be charged to the State, with the single exception 
of the employment of gentlemen of the district police, officers of 
the district police, who would go, as is their duty, and look up tes- 
timony and summon witnesses. That is all the means that the ex- 
ecutive department of this Commonwealth has had at its disposal 
for this investigation and all that it has used. I wish I had had 
more, I should have used it, don’t have an}’ mistake about that. 
And then we are told what Mr. Brown found in the auditor’s report. 
Wiry, if lie makes as bad a mistake in the auditor’s report as he 
has made about the skin, how can we trust him? If his mind is 
so incapable of getting at the true fact, how can we trust him? 
The question that I asked — and I have told you the reason for 
it, and given 3 011 a legal reason ; and I stopped and hesitated 
more than I generally do, gentlemen of the committee, to choose 
m}r words, so as to put the proposition where it could not give 
any offence, or cause any feeling or excitement — was a pure 
question of right. Shall I ask this witness, as bearing upon his 
own testimony, and bearing upon the testimony of the other wit- 
nesses, who pa}Ts the expense of this investigation. Because, I 
cannot conceive of his doing it now ; for, so far as he is con- 
cerned, the investigation ended some month or few weeks ago; 
or any of his family ; so far as they are concerned, it ended HOUSE —No. 300. 
1883.] 
2585 
some time ago. And, so far as he is concerned, to-day, if it 
hadn’t been, would have been the last day of his official life. 
The Witness. To-uiorrow, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. To-morrow is the thirtieth, is it not? 
The Witness. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Very well ; a man becomes twenty-one years 
old the day before twenty-one years from the day he was born, 
— the day before. I am right, sir. Your official life ended to- 
da}T by the limitation of the statute ; it runs out this hour. 
Mr. Brown. If you are not any more nearly right about 
other things than you are about that, you are woefully mistaken. 
Gov. Butler. What, about when a man becomes twenty-one 
years of age? * 
Mr. Brown. No; the other proposition, that his official life 
ends to-day. 
Gov. Butler. It is as I have said ; to-morrow is the thirtieth, 
and I understand he was elected on the thirtieth, and that 
brings his official life to an end when this da}' ends, at twelve 
o’clock. 
Mr. Brown. He is elected for a year, and the year com- 
mences July 1st. 
Gov. Butler Now, without going into that, which is a 
matter of very small moment, a day or an hour — and all his 
officers fall with him — I am anxious to know who is pro- 
longing — wdio is carrying on this investigation. I am not sa}T- 
ing carrying it on too long for the purposes of those people who 
want to carry it on, but I want to know who pays the ex- 
pense; and I think the Commonwealth have a right to 
know. I don’t mean that it shall appear that all the ex- 
penses are chargeable to the prosecution. I don’t mean it 
shall go that the governor, in this immense expense, 
has been responsible for it. I am not responsible for this steno- 
graphic report; the committee are responsible. 1 don’t say 
whether rightly or wrongly ; 1 have no complaint to make. But 
I have heard it, over and over again* that this investigation was 
brought on to this committee by the executive. I deny it in 
any form. There was a committee raised by the House of Rep- 
resentatives, and that committee was charged with this investi- 
gation ; and the governor neither had anything to do with the 
appointing or raising the committee nor framing the order by 
which this investigation was started. I neither asked it nor de- 
sired it in any form In the message I dealt, with that which 2586 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
parliamentary law says is ground for the impeachment of an 
officer — common fame and common report. And I said only : 
Has it not been testified before the grand jury, so and so? 
Whether rightly or wrongly, it had been. I was invited to take 
part and put in evidence. I have answered that invitation with 
a diligence and a perseverance, and with a desire to oblige the 
committee in that behalf, which I am certain they will give me 
credit for; and nothing else. I have not failed to answer 
the politeness of the committee in that regard in an}” way. 
Don’t let us understand that I started this investigation any 
more than I started the investigation into the reasons why 
Warden Earle was discharged, except that I discharged him 
[applause] and a committee was raised to investigate it, and 
that committee has failed to sit. I would have been there just 
as well as here, dividing my time between you, if that had been 
started. But I want you to understand, gentlemen, I want the 
people of the Commonwealth to understand, that for this I am 
in no w-ay responsible. I am only responsible for what I have 
done in it, and I thank God that he let me live so long that I 
have been able to do what I have. [Applause.] Now, then, 
Mr. Chairman, if this investigation has touched the good name 
and fame of Massachusetts, so that every child has the right to 
subscribe to its defence, be it so. Why object, then, to my 
finding out what child, what man, has subscribed to the defence? 
If it is so glorious and so noble a work, why make objection ? 
Why deny an answer to the question ? If the investigation has 
touched the good name and fame of the Commonwealth in any 
degree — and it has in some degree, I admit — yet it has more 
than restored that good name and fame, because it shows that 
now the Commonwealth have men at the head of it in the shape 
of your committee and the executive who are determined to 
apply a remedy for all misdeeds, so far as they are able to do it; 
and the remedy has already been applied. Judgment is confessed. 
[Applause.] Execution has followed ; and not from the execu- 
tive — not from the executive. Execution—and I give credit to 
the executioners who adjudicated and executed. The board of 
state charities,when the responsibility was thrown upon them, the}" 
hastened to relieve themselves of it, by putting the charge of 
this institution into the hands of others than those who have 
had charge of it for twenty-five years. They knew ; they had 
been complaining, and their predecessors for years had tried to 
get the power. They had appealed to the executive for the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2587 
power ; and an executive came into office who knew how to 
give them the power and was willing to give it to them ; and 
as soon as it was given to them abuses were stopped by a 
change of personnel. See a moment! See a moment! Four 
or five governors have had a most terrible indictment, the worst 
parts of which never had been investigated, made against this 
institution. It came down as a trans-mittendum from governor 
to governor, by the board of state charities, renewed year by 
year, and nothing could be done because — for I am getting a 
little on dangerous ground — because for some good reason the 
executive of those years didn’t like to interfere with it — I 
think I don’t go too far. But there was an executive this year 
where the Marshes didn’t attend his nominating convention, and 
he had no scruples in interfering with it; and he immediately 
put the power — determined to relieve himself of it — into the 
hands of the board of state charities, who were making the 
complaints, and said to them : “ There ; there is the power ; you 
have been making complaints to all these executives ; now do it 
yourselves ; do it }Toiirselves. ” And you, gentlemen, in the 
meantime, called the same executive into the investigation. 
That is all there is of it. And now I am only desiring to con- 
duct this investigation upon the ground on which it is legal and 
competent. 
The Chairman. I will say in answer to your remarks as to 
the cost of the stenographer and printing, that the legislature is 
responsible for them in adopting the order. 
Gov. Butler. I think so too, sir ; I accept the amendment. 
The Chairman. I will submit the question to the committee. 
Mr. Learnard. I would like to have the question read. 
[The stenographer read the original 'question, “ Do you pay 
the expenses of this investigation?”] 
Gov. Butler. “ Of the defence ” of the investigation. 
Mr. Murphy. Didn’t I understand Mr. Brown in his speech 
that he had no objection. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think I made that remark. 
Mr. Murphy. That you hadn’t the slightest objection to 
Capt. Marsh telling what he knew so far as an}- organization 
was concerned. 
Mr. Brown. With great respect I want to state that you 
haven’t stated it correctly. 
Mr. Murphy. Will the stenographer read that portion of Mr, 
Brown’s remarks? 2588 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. We are acting upon the question. 
Mr. Murphy. Can’t I find that out? 
[The stenographer read from Mr. Brown’s remarks the sen- 
tence “If he simply desires to know whether aiy* organized 
bod3r of men are behind Capt. Marsh for the purpose of pa3r- 
ing these expenses, 1 am perfectly willing that Capt. Marsh 
should answer all he knows about it—perfectly willing.”] 
Mr. Murphy. That is about the same thing. 
The Chairman. We will act upon the question as it is put. 
[The question was rejected.] 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think I shall have to trouble you any 
more, Mr. Marsh. 
Mr. Brown. That is all, Capt. Marsh. 
Testimony of Francis H. Nourse (sworn) 
Q. Your full name is what ? A. Francis H. Nourse. 
Q. How old are you, Mr. Nourse? A. Sixty-four. 
Gov. Butler. .1 am informed, gentlemen, that Mr. Nourse, 
who is on the Lowell Railroad, has a great deal of business to 
do to-morrow, and cannot be here without great inconvenience, 
not only* to himself but to his occupation. 
The Chairman. I think the committee have fully decided not 
to sit to-morrow, Governor. 
Mr. Brown. Then there will be no break in his testimony, 
because he can be here on Monday. 
Gov. Butler. You do not intend to sit, sir? 
The Chairman. Do not intend to sit; no, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Then there is no objection to 3*0111* going on 
with Mr. Nourse, and I wall tiy to get through with him. 
Q. Where do 3*011 reside? A. In Winchester; I have for 
the last ten years. 
Q. Now, Mr. Nourse, 3011 were one of the inspectors or 
trustees of this Tewksbury almshouse ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did 3*0111' connection ■with this institution, as in- 
spector or trustee, or in any other capaeit3*, commence? A. In 
1863. 
Q. In 1863? A. Under Governor Andrew. 
Q. Now, have you been connected with the board of man- 
agement in some capacit3* since that time, all the time? A. I 
have. 
During the year 1876, Mr. Nourse, do you recollect' 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 1883.1 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2589 
whether His Excellency, Gov. Rice, referred to your board of 
management the communication of the board of health, lunacy 
and charity, or whatever it was. — the board of state charities. 
Gov. Butler. It was the board of charity. 
Q. Do you recollect a communication dated March 23, 187G, 
signed by Mr. Sanborn? A. One day, when T was in his 
office, the governor passed them over to me ; didn’t give me any 
written communication, but passed the documents over to me 
and said it belonged to our board, that we were charged to in- 
vestigate and report. 
Gov. Butler. Now you speak of the one that I read here? 
• Mr. Brown. Have you the original document here, Gov- 
ernor? 
Gov. Butler. I can send for it in two minutes. 
Mr. Brown. I can get him to identify it. 
Q. Can you recollect what time in the year that was? A. 
I think it was in July. 
Q. In July, 1876? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was that communication addressed to the governor, read 
by your trustees,.examined? A. It was by me referred to the 
board, and Mr. Safford, who was one of the trustees that they 
implicated with the rest of us ; and the board referred it to me 
and Mr. Safford to investigate the matter and report to them ; 
and, subsequently, a report was made by me to the board. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That in writing? A. Yes. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Was that report which was made by 
you to the board in writing? A. No, sir; yes, sir; 1 submit- 
ted this report which was signed ; yes, sir ; that was. 
Q. The report which you submitted to the board? A. 
Which was signed by all of us. 
Q. Was that addressed to the governor? A. It was ad- 
dressed to the governor. 
Q. You submitted to your board a report addressed to the 
governor which was signed by all the trustees, was it? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And then sent to the governor? A. I left it at the 
governor’s office, myself. 
Q. Have you ever seen it since? A. No, sir; I have not. 
Q. Was there a copy of it extended upon the records of 
your board? A. There was. 
Q. Will you examine that record [handing book to witness] 
and tell me whether that is a copy of the communication which 2590 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
was sent to His Excellency, the governor, at that time? A. 1 
have no doubt this is a copy ; it may not be ; 1 can’t say whether 
it is word for word, but it purported to be a copy made by the 
clerk, who is a sworn officer. I have not looked this over before 
this morning. 
Gov. Butler. Nobody could tell whether it wras an exact 
copy. 
Q. You think it is a substantial copy? A. Yes, sir. This 
is the motion at the meeting which I referred to : “ On motion 
voted that the charges preferred by the board of state char- 
ities ” - 
Gov. Butler. I don’t object to this going in. 
Mr. Brown. lie is reading from the record of a previous 
meeting, where the matter was referred to. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly ; put it in, sir. 
The Witness. [Reading.] 
“ Voted that the charges preferred by the board of state charities 
to the governor, and by him referred to the inspectors, be referred to 
the chairman, who be requested to confer with Mr. Safford, and pre- 
pare a report to be submitted to the governor.” 
Mr. Brown. And that meeting of the board — 
Gov. Butler. What time was that? 
Mr. Brown. Was the August meeting, 1876. 
Gov. Butler. Was what date? 
The Witness. No; not August, was it? 
Mr. Brown. That was August31,1876. Then, atthe meet- 
ing of September fourth, you made your report, did you, and it 
was signed by the trustees and copied into your records as a 
part of your record? 
The Witness. The next meeting wras 
“ The complaints of the board of state charities and other papers 
sent to the governor, having been referred by him to the board of 
inspectors through the chairman, were presented to the board by 
him July 14th, 1876, but no formal action was taken thereon till 
August 31.” 
That is the record made at the time this was spread upon the 
records. 
Mr. Brown, Now, shall I read that, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. Just let me look at that a moment; that wall 
get the dates in my mind. It was referred by the governor to 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2591 
you on the fourteenth, as this says, of July ; no formal action 
was taken till the thirty-first of August, and, then, this report 
was made on the fourth of September. But, this report is in 
the form of a letter to His Excellency. 
The Witness. That is a copy, supposed to be a copy, of 
the letter. 
Gov. Butler. What you call a report is the letter to His 
Excellency the governor. 
The Witness. That would not be entered upon the books 
till our next meeting, — authority from the board given to enter 
it upon the records. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Witness. A report was made and then, immediately, 
when signed — 
Gov. Butler. Let me see how this stands. Now, then [re- 
ferring to the record book], August 31 you had a meeting,— 
you had one in July, — and now comes the meeting of August 
31. At the regular meeting of the board certain bills were 
passed, and, then, the next business was — after they got 
through the bills, the next business was—“on motion, voted, that 
the matter of vacation to Mr. and Mrs. Jones,” should be done 
so-and-so ; and then, the next thing that was done, on motion, 
voted, that the superintendent be authorized to employ Messrs. 
Pedrick and Closson to appraise the property.” And the next 
thing done was, “ voted, that the following in reference to Miss 
Helen M. Marsh, be adopted, copied upon the records, and a 
copy be furnished to her by the clerk : 
“ Resolved, That in accepting the resignation of Dr. Helen M. 
Marsh, we desire to express our confidence in her professional ability, 
and appreciation of her six years of faithful service in this institu- 
tion. We wish and bespeak for her the same success in fields 
which she has worthily obtained in this.” 
Then the resignation of Mrs. Nellie E. Marsh, assistant mat- 
ron, was presented. That is another Miss Marsh. 
The Witness. That is Thomas J. Marsh, Jr.’s, wife. 
Gov. Butler. Which was accepted. 
The Witness. The resignation was accepted. 
Q. Was she the matron of the sewing department? A. 
Yes, sir; her resignation was accepted. 
Gov. Butler. Then “ on motion, voted, that the charges pre- 
ferred by the board of state charities to the governor, and by 2592 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
him referred to the inspectors, he referred to the chairman, who 
be requested to confer with Mr. Safford and prepare a report to 
be submitted to the governor.” “ Freddie Lang was indentured 
to William Linton of Lawrence.” “ Voted to adjourn at the 
call of the chairman.” And, then, next, we have the special 
meeting Sept. 4, 1870. “Present at this meeting: Messrs. 
Nourse, Elliot and Spalding,” — those were the three trus- 
tees. “ The chairman submitted the following report in refer- 
ence to the charges referred to him at the last meeting, which 
was adopted. The clerk was directed to copy the same on the 
records.” Then it begins, “ Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 
State almshouse, Tewksbury, August 31, 1876,” and then 
goes on with that. Well, I have no doubt that is like the other 
report, but if we find it is not — 
Mr. Brown. Then you can call attention to it. 
Gov. Butler. Then 1 will call attention to it. Here it is. 
[Referring to document handed him.] 
Mr. Brown. That is the original letter? 
Gov. Butler. That is the original letter. 
Mr. Brown. Before I read this I should like to look at that 
a moment. [Paper handed Mr. Brown by the governor.] 
Q. Do you recollect, Mr. Nourse. whether that was the com- 
munication which was referred to you? [Handing paper to wit- 
ness.] A. Well, sir, I have no means of identifying any 
papers which were referred to me, only there was a mass of 
them, quite a large lot of them, by the board of state charities, 
and some published interviews that you will find reference to in 
the report. I put no mark on them so I could identify them. 
Q. Did you read the letter of March 23, 1876, which wa9 
published in connection with this investigation, addressed to 
Gov. Rice? A. I read this ; I didn’t read the article. 
Q. You read the letter? A. I read this, of course, 
Gov. Butler. This isn’t the letter of Mr. Sanborn ; it is 
the letter of the board of charities. 
Mr. Brown. By Mr. Sanborn, that is all. 
Gov. Butler. There is no doubt that is the one referred to; 
there isn’t any other. 
The Witness. There was other material, and a mass of news- 
paper matter. 
[Mr. Brown then read the following from the record of the 
inspectors] : — 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2593 
State Almshouse, Tewksbury, August 31, 1876. 
To His Excellency, the Governor:— 
The undersigned, Inspectors of the State Almshouse at Tewksburyt 
under the instructions of your Excellency to report upon sundry 
papers referred to them concerning the administration of that 
institution, respectfully offer the following statement: — 
The complaints, and charges contained in the aforesaid papers, may 
be classed under three heads ; first, charges affecting the manage- 
ment of the almshouse by the superintendent and his officers; 
second, charges touching private character; third, complaints in- 
volving the inspectors. 
The charges in the first division have been thoroughly investigated 
and adjudicated by a committee of the legislature, and their several 
reports, marked “ A,” to which your Excellency is respectfully 
referred, have been formally and finally acted upon by that body; 
and we also ask your attention to our reply herewith transmitted, 
marked “ B,” made before that committee in answer to these charges. 
The undersigned have made,all reasonable effort to accomplish any 
reforms suggested in those reports, and hope soon to complete them. 
The medical department has been carefully reorganized with a 
competent corps of physicians and nurses, under the act of the 
legislature passed May, 18-76. Two of the six assistants who are 
members of the supei'intendent’s family, have already resigned, and 
the resignation of a third has been offered. This leaves to the sup- 
erintendent only lhe aid of his faithful wife and of his two sons, one 
in the clerical and the other in the executive department; and we 
respectfully submit to your Excellency that after eighteen years of 
conscientious service this officer, in his declining years, is entitled to 
this much of aid from members of his family of long experi- 
ence in this special sphere of duty, especially as one of them has 
been permanently disabled in the employment of the State. 
The charges made under the second head have received the atten- 
tion from the legislature to which they were entitled. They have long 
and favorably known the officer accused, they have found no occasion 
to question his integrity or purity of character and conduct during 
an official career of more than eighteen years. We have, however, 
made no formal investigation of this charge, as, in our opinion, it 
would not be proper to put Mr. Marsh upon his trial upon a charge 
so grave, and which, by merely being made, would so seriously 
affect his good name and standing, upon mere rumor. I f charges like 
this are to be investigated formally by us, they should be preferred 
in writing, with the assurance that they could be substantiated by 
some direct testimony. We do not consider it our duty to go forth 
prospecting among loose women to find evidence of such gossip. 11 is 
enough for us now to say that we have informed Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., 
of the charge, and he assures us that it is utterly devoid of truth. 2594 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. [Apr. 
We have no knowledge of any deficiency of $1,500,'or of any other 
amount, in the account of the institution. The financial statements 
have always been carefully examined by us, and we are fully 
satisfied that all the money received from the treasury of the 
Commonwealth have been honestly disbursed, and we have no 
reason to doubt that all the money received from inmates or from 
the sale of anything from the institution, has been duly accounted 
ior. It is further understood that Dr. Nichols, who signed the 
charges alluded to, has no personal knowledge of the alleged facts, 
and that they rest merely on the gossip of the malicious, lewd and 
wanton. All the other complaints are of minor importance and are 
either too trifling for extended notice, being founded on a misappre- 
hension of facts and motives, or are based on similar and unreliable 
testimony. Special allusion should be here made to a letter signed 
by one Bernard O’lvane, accompanying these papers. This person 
was detailed to labor in the institution at the urgent request of Gov. 
Andrew, and was soon discharged for drunkenness and undue fa- 
miliarity with female inmates, offences which he did not pretend to 
deny. Since that date he has been a chronic slanderer of the insti- 
tution and fits officers. 
The third group of charges affects the majority of the present 
board of inspectors, and has no bearing upon their colleague, Mr. 
Spalding. The undersigm d desire to say, in regard to our own 
course, that we are aware, not only of no dereliction of duty, but ai’e 
satisfied that our duties have been discharged to the institution with 
an interest in its welfare beyond what the letter of the statute or 
by-laws would require. It is utterly impossible for a supervising 
board, as constituted and paid under existing laws, to know every 
single thing going on, or that may have transpired in their absence 
in a community of 1,000 abnormal beings. The weekly visits 
required by law have been duly made, and the monthly meetiugs 
have been statedly held, when the accounts have been carefully 
examined. But there is no provision of law by which the board of 
inspectors can be made a detective force for the prevention or pun- 
ishment of offences which must and do occur even in every normal 
community of equal size, or lor the discovery and restraint of all 
the shortcomings which happen not only in every institution but in 
every household. 
In regard to the suggestion of the board of state charities, we 
have only to say that we should not resign our position at the 
request of anybody, if such resignation could be in any way construed 
as an admission of fault on our part. 
In the faith that your Excellency will appreciate the perplexities 
of their position, and in the assurance that the people of the State 
do not expect perfection in managing an institution of this peculiar 
character, but will demand no more than a conscientious and reason- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2595 
ably judicious use of the means placed in their hands by the 
Commonwealth, they remain with great respect, 
Your Excellency’s obedient servants, 
F. H. Nourse, 
George P. Elliot, 
William R. Spalding. 
Inspectors. 
(Signed) 
Now, Mr. Nourse, I want to call your attention, before clos- 
ing tlie report of this meeting, to another matter. Perhaps, 
Mr. Chairman, I will read the entire record of this meeting. 
[Reading.] 
On motion, voted, that the papers referred to the board by the 
governor be returned to him with the report of the inspectors 
thereon. The complaints of the board of state charities and other 
papers sent to the governor, having been referred by him to the 
board of inspectors through the chairman, were presented to the 
board by him July 14, 1870, but no formal action was taken thereon 
until August 31, 1876. 
On motion, voted, to refer the communication of Col. Gardiner Tufts 
in relation to the indenture of Fred Lang, to Mr. Spalding, to inves- 
tigate and to take such action thereon as he may see fit and report 
the same to the board. 
The complaint of Agnes Calder against Emmons French for bad 
treatment of the insane, particularly of Mrs. Flemming, having been 
fully heard, July 31, by her own statement and that of Drs. Lathrop 
and Marsh, Mrs. Wardwell and Mr. and Mrs. Emmons French, were 
deemed by the board of inspectors to be unfounded. 
Charles P. Marsh, Clerk. 
Q. Now, Mr. Nourse, this communication, referred to you, 
upon which you made this report, was investigated, you say, by 
37ourself and — 
Gov. Butler. No ; he has not said that. 
Mr. Brown. Yes, he said so ; but let us see. 
Q. Was it referred to a sub-committee of your board? A. 
It was referred to myself and Mr. Safford, a former member. 
Q. Did you investigate it? 
Gov.Butler. He says he didn’t, in the communication. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; he says lie did in the com- 
munication. 
Gov. Butler. He says he didn’t, one part of it. 2596 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. We did investigate as far as it was in our 
power to do. 
Q. What did you do? A. We talked with the different 
parties named. There is no charge of any misconduct, for 
instance, on the part of Thomas J. Marsh with any person, and, 
of course, we had no person to go to excepting Thomas J. 
Marsh. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) By the name, you mean the two? 
A. Yes ; one other charge was that Mrs. Marsh stole the goods 
of the inmates. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, did you try to ascertain the 
facts with regard to that? A. We talked with Capt. Marsh 
about it, and he showed us where the clothing of the inmates 
had been made up, made over for other inmates and for various 
purposes. 
Q. Did you ’ ascertain or have any reason to know in any 
way from any source that any clothing of inmates had been ap- 
propriated by Mrs. Marsh or anybody else? 
Gov. Butler. Stop a moment; L object to that question. 
Mr. Brown. What is the objection? 
Gov. Butler. Well, the objection is that you are now ask- 
ing him if he had any reason to know. You have asked him 
what he did, and he says he talked with Captain Marsh about 
it, and that was all; now you are trying to get in the question, 
had you reason to know from anybody else. 
Mi-. Brown. I didn’t understand him to say that was all. 
Gov. Butler, lie said so. 
Mr. Brown. 1 didn’t understand him to say so. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; all about the clothing, he said. I 
can’t be mistaken. 
Q. J will put this question to you, Mr. Nourse : Did you 
ever have any information from any inmate during any time 
that you have been an officer in that institution, that any of the 
Marsh family appropriated to themselves for their own use the 
clothing of inmates? A. Never. 
Q. Never did? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever know or hear of such a fact from an}' 
officer of the institution ? A. Never did. 
Q. With the exception of the communication of Mr. San- 
born, as a member of the board of charities, to the governor, 
did you ever hear of it till this investigation? 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2597 
Gov. Butler. Not Mr. Sanborn as a member of the board ; 
a communication of the board. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t care who it was from. 
Gov. Butler. Through their secretary. 
Q. With the exception of that communication, dated March 
23, 1876, up to the date of this investigation, did you ever hear 
of it, sir? A. 1 haven’t any recollection of ever hearing any- 
thing of the kind. I will say that the most we feared was 
discharged officers, because they would not tell the truth, and 
there would be some gossip by discharged officers, sometimes. 
Gov. Butler. All the discharged officers could not tell the 
truth. 
The Witness. I didn’t mean to say that, Governor ; I believe 
I didn’t say that. 1 said we had the fear of misrepresentation 
from discharged officers ; but that didn’t prevent our discharging 
them, at the same time. 
Q. Now, l want to come at this matter of Agnes Calder 
and the charge against Emmons French for bad treatment of 
the insane ; do you recollect about that? A. I recollect the 
case very well, indeed. 
Q. Now, state all the facts ; by the way, was that the same 
Mrs. Calder who testified here as a witness? A. I am not 
able to sajR 
Mr. Brown. We will show that she was. Is there any 
question about it? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know a word about it. 
Mr. Brown. We will show she was the same Mrs. Calder. 
The Witness. That complaint came up at our meeting at 
the time we were all there, and wre sent for the parties to come 
forward. We sent for her and she first made her statement, 
and before she got through she said there was nothing to it, 
didn’t amount to anjdhing, — craz3T woman. Not content with 
that we called upon the physicians, and took their statements ; 
and we called upon Mr. and Mrs. French. The charge wras, 
the first charge was, that she was compelled to put her hands 
up and stand right against the wall — 
Q. That who was? A. This woman, this crazy woman ; 
she flung herself against the wall and showed us, and said, I 
was obliged to do so.” Before she got through with it, after a 
few simple questions, she denied it; said it was not so. And 
Mr. and Mrs. French were questioned about it, and the doctors, 
Mr. Brown. Turn to the 280th page of the record and you 2598 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
will find the testimony of Agnes Calder. You will find the 
commencement of the relation about Mr. French on the 282d 
page. 
Q. Did she at that time complain that Mr. French had 
beaten anybody or kicked anybody, or anything of that kind? 
A. That was the complaint she went before the committee 
with. 
Q. Now, state all that you recollect with regard to the com- 
plaint that she made before the committee. 
Gov. Butler. All she says there [referring to the record] 
is in regard to a single insane woman. 
Mr. Brown. Yes, there are two; one kicked on the back, 
and one choked with somebody’s fingers. 
Gov. Butler. All that was inflicted, according to that rec- 
ord, upon a single insane woman. 
Mr Brown. She doesn’t say there was ever an investigation. 
Gov. Butler. I am talking about this record. 
Mr. Brown. The inspectors called that woman. 
Q. Now, did she make any other complaint except this one 
which was referred to in this record, at the time she was before 
you? A. I haven’t any recollection of it. 
Q. Now, Mr. Nourse, in your connection with that institu- 
tion since 1863, have you ever been able to ascertain that any 
of its officers have been guilty of cruelty" towards the inmates? 
A. I don’t remember of but two or three instances, and then 
the officers were discharged. 
Q. Can you tell these instances? A. I recollect the su- 
perintendent speaking of one, — I don’t remember names, I am 
very bad at that, — but the superintendent spoke of one that 
had abused one of the inmates and he discharged him, and wre 
approved of his course. 
Q. Was that Mr. Walter Winning? A. As 1 say, 1 am 
not able to say ; I recollect distinctly of it. 
Q. Give us your best recollection as to how many, during 
the twenty years from ’63, of these occurrences took place? A. 
I don’t remember ; these are not fixed in my mind definitely ; I 
don’t remember over three. 
Q. Have you frequently, or in each year,or at any time, been 
before the legislative committee upon the subject of appropria- 
tions for this institution? A. Do you mean the committee on 
charitable institutions, or the finance committee? 
Q. The finance committee, A. I have been before both, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2599 
I cannot say I have each year, but I have numerous times. 
Q. Now, without going into detail, I will ask you, Mr. 
Nourse, within your experience and according to your judg- 
ment, has the appropriation for the support of these people been- 
sufficient during the last twenty years? A. I should say not. 
In a good many instances I have been before the finance com- 
mittee by request and stated the needs of the institution, and 
said to them, of course it was a matter that didn’t personally in- 
terest us, but for the benefit of the institution, and for the bene- 
fit of the people whose care was under us, that we ought to have 
more money, — more money for the purpose of procuring nurses, 
and, also, for a different class of supplies. I should say that in 
1863, when I first went to the institution, there was but one 
paid nurse in the institution. 
Q. One paid nurse in the institution in 1863. A. And 
she was nurse to the lying-in women. All the rest of the 
nursing was done by inmates. » At that time there was no hos- 
pital. The sick were scattered all over the building, the main 
building, and I had occasion before the committee on charitable 
institutions frequently to call their attention to it, — the great 
need for a hospital, — and that the people were not well cared 
for, the well people ; there were sick people all around them. 
It was not proper; it was not decent. But for a long time no 
heed was paid to it. I can’t tell when they began to increase the 
nurses ; I can by the books. For a long time no heed was paid 
to it, and I finally took the position that, as the inmates were 
not proper to have charge of the sick,—were not responsible,— 
that we should have somebody paid that would be responsible 
for their care. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think this is competent evidence, but 
I don’t object to it. I think the worst testimony against the 
action of the Commonwealth is now being put in, but I am quite 
content to hear it. 
Mr. Brown. Go on, Mr. Nourse. 
Gov. Butler. I have heard it sometimes said that we were 
highly benevolent. 
The Witness. When the necessity is shown for benevolence. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; but you shew a necessity. 
The Witness. We did after a while, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Brett}' long time. 
The Witness. Kept hammering away. 
Gov. Butler. Go on, sir ; you are doing well. . 2600 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. The institution at that time would not be 
recognized, hardly, in its present condition. 
Q. What was the difference in its condition? A. Old 
buildings were in the rear of the present ones ; an old, crazy- 
house was down by the gate, and these were brought close up 
to the buildings; and water-closets were in these buildings 
which were very offensive; obliged to be cleaned out certainly 
three times a week, which was extremely offensive. As appro- 
priations were given from time to time, we improved them ; 
moved off the buildings, and, finally, after a good deal of effort, 
we have, now, water-closets through all the buildings, which 
has removed one great source of complaint. 
Q. Mr. Nourse, won’t you tell me, or tell the committee in 
a very few words, what has been the changed character of the 
institution from 1862 to 1883, in reference to the ability of the 
inmates to perform labor necessary to run the institution? A. 
At the time I first went there, the inmates were more able- 
bodied, and could perform a good deal more work. At the 
present time, there is hardly enough to be obtained, — hardly 
enough assistance from the inmates, — to do any work except- 
ing the most trivial; and the best help we have had for the last 
five or six years has been the insane, — the chronic and in- 
curable insane. The men would perform labor on the farm, 
which was for their benefit as well as for the benefit of the 
State, but that number has gradually dropped away, and the 
board of state charities have removed all those. They did re- 
move all but a few which were able to labor, and they allowed 
us to keep those ; and the same with the females, — although, 
now, the institution is being tilled more with the females than 
with the males. 
Q. Mr. Nourse, have you ever had any knowledge that any 
member of the Marsh family have appropriated to themselves or 
given to others any property of the Commonwealth? A. No, 
sir. 
Gov. Butler. They probably didn’t tell him. 
The Witness. Captain Marsh stated about two barrels of 
apples ; 1 have no recollection about it; 1 presume he stated 
the truth about it, but 1 haven’t any recollection about it. 
Q. Has your attention ever been called by anybody to that 
fact prior to this investigation? A. No, sir ; it has not. 
Q. Now, sir, with the exception ‘of what was contained in 
that letter of Mr. Sanborn, representing the board of charities, 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2601 
to Gov. Rice, which was referred to your committee, have you 
ever, prior to this investigation, heard the charge made that 
Mrs. Marsh — 
Gov. Butler. You asked that question before. 
Mr. Brown. This is another, as you will see when you have 
heard it,— that Mrs. Marsh or an}' member of the Marsh 
family had appropriated any of the clothing or property of the 
inmates ? 
Gov. Butler. You asked this question before. 
Mr. Brown. Well, then, no need of answering it again. 
Gov. Butler. If you just think of it you will see; and 
then, you followed it by asking if he heard any of the in- 
mates — 
Mr. Brown. Let it go, then. 
The Witness. I answered that generally that I didn’t think 
I did; but I think the same charges were before the com- 
mittee of the legislature in 1876. I don’t wish to be misunder- 
stood. 
Gov. Butler. They were not. 
The Witness. I had that impression. 
Gov. Butler. I saw you had it by your report, but they 
were not. 
Q. Mr. Nourse, when you first became connected with the 
institution, were there any bodies delivered to medical schools 
for any purpose? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And, from ’62 or ’63 to ’73, who wras directed by the 
management of the institution to have charge of that matter? 
Gov. Butler. If anybody. 
Mr. Brown. If anybody. 
A. I don’t think the trustees had anything to do with it; I 
think it was done by the superintendent till about ten years 
ago. 
Q. What was done ten years ago? A. Some ten years 
ago, about that — 
Gov. Butler. I beg your pardon. Now, the trustees can 
only act as a body, and their action is on record. I object to 
what the trustees did that is not of record, because they can’t 
do anything — 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know but you may say it is improper, 
and I am perfectly willing you should. 
Gov, Butter. They can’t act except by vote, and that vote 2602 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
should be recorded, and the record is the evidence of their 
action. 
Mr. Brown. Suppose it was not recorded? 
Gov. Butler. Then it was not done. 
Q. What was done, then, Mr. Nourse? A. The superin- 
tendent expressed himself dissatisfied with the manner in which 
that business was done, inasmuch as the people who were called 
upon to do it made considerable talk amongst themselves, which 
was not deemed proper. 
Q. Why not? A. It is a matter— 
Gov. Butler. Well, I object, now. I make a formal objec- 
tion. I do not object to any action taken by the trustees, but 
what people thought, and what people didn’t think, as detailed 
to the trustees, and what the trustees thought and didn’t think, 
is not evidence here. And, if there was any action taken, I 
want it proved by the books ; and I claim, now, that there is no 
action taken,—I didn’t go back of ’69,—from ’69 to ’79, on the 
records, by the board of trustees. And, to have trustees come 
here and undertake to swear what was talked of and what was 
done, or what was supposed lo be done, is not proper evidence. 
This board is a public board of public officers, appointed by the 
governor, with the advice and consent of the council, entrusted 
by law with certain duties ; they can only’ speak as to their 
duties through the records. Because, otherwise, what was done 
would depend upon the life of each one of them. They would 
have to carry it in their memory. I suppose there is nothing 
clearer than that, and nothing that ought to be clearer, for the 
reason, how shall we ascertain what public officers do who can 
only act by vote? It so happens that in this case the}’ cannot 
act by a majority vote. There is no provision that the trustees 
by a majority of them shall do anything; and, 1 suppose the 
rule is well established, that where there is no provision in the 
act creating a board of trustees, referees, or anybody else, that 
they shall act by majority, they must act unanimously. As in 
the case of arbitrators and referees ; if you refer to a board of 
arbitrators, if you don’t put in the provision that the report of 
the greater number of them, or some similar provision, shall be 
final or conclusive, or whatever it may be, then all must sign 
the report or it is void. So, here, we have no earthly means of 
knowing anything about this if we don’t stand by the record, 
and I am very anxious to have the whole record put in, and every 
portion, because there is a good deal to be inferred from the 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2603 
absence of record. The want of it speaks quite as loud as it 
speaks for itself. And I object to Mr. Nourse telling what he 
thinks the trustees did and what he thinks the trustees didn’t 
do. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman : The charge against the man- 
agement of this institution upon this subject, is this : That they 
have sold the bodies of human beings for money and that they 
haven’t put the money into the treasury of the Commonwealth. 
Now, wre deny that they have ever sold the bodies of human 
beings. We say that the}’ have acted under the provisions of a 
public law which required them to deliver to physicians, sur- 
geons, medical colleges, incorporated, after having received a 
proper bond, the bodies of those persons who were to be buried 
at the public expense. It was not a matter of preference ; it 
was not a matter about which they could exercise their judgment 
and discretion. They were obliged to do it, and the only re- 
striction put upon them by the statute is that they should do it 
in such a way as not to offend public sentiment. It is the edict 
of the people of this Commonwealth that these men shall do it; 
that they shall do it in a way so as not to offend public senti- 
ment. The manner in wrhich it shall be done, under that ex- 
pression of the statute, is left entirely to them. And, if this 
matter is of the slightest consequence at all, it is of conse- 
quence that this committee shall know precisely what was and 
what wras not done. I understand the burden of His Excel- 
lency’s song to be that they have violated a public law, that 
they have outraged public sentiment. Now, it is simply absurd 
to say that because these trustees kept no record of this busi- 
ness therefore they cannot show what they did. That is absurd. 
Gov. Butler. I go further, and say that, therefore, they 
didn’t do it. 
Mr. Brown. What say ? 
Gov. Butler. I go further and say that, therefore, they 
didn’t do it. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I am not responsible for any somersault 
which you may make. But, I say this, that I stand here ready 
to fulfil the promise that I made to this committee, that the very 
inside of this institution I would turn open to the public inspec- 
tion, so that they could see exactly what had been done ; and 
that I stand ready to do. If Ilis Excellency is unwilling that 
this man should state what they did in the exercise of that 
discretion which the statute imposed upon them, as regards the 2604 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
manner of the doing of this, let him come out and say so. 
Whether the tiling was legally done or illegally done, is a ques- 
tion that I am perfectly willing to submit to this committee and 
to the public and to the country, when the public and the 
country shall know what we did. That is all 1 ask ; I want to 
show what we did; nothing else. Nothing to conceal, nothing 
to cover up. We will furnish a record which we believe satisfies 
the law. That is all we ask to show, and my question to this 
witness is simply this : what did you do? That is all. If the 
witness has a mind to put in some immaterial matter which the 
trustees thought, that I don’t care anything about; but I want 
to know what the trustees did; commencing, of course, with 
1873, because that is the particular period complained of; from 
that down. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; long before. 
Mr. Brown. Well, you haven’t offered any evidence or any- 
thing earlier than 1873. Oh, yes; you did. That lunatic 
Dixwell did say something about ’71 and ’72, but T supposed 
he had passed out of the memory of even the other lunatics of 
the Commonwealth. 
The Chairman. The time for adjournment having arrived, 
this hearing will stand adjourned to half-past nine on Monday. 
Gov. Butler. I wish you could go on to-morrow, because I 
want to close this up. 
The Chairman. I have tried hard to get a quorum to sit 
to-morrow,’ but I am not able to do so. 
Gov. Butler. Well, it is your decision and not my wish. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2605 
FIFTY-FOURTH HEARING. 
Monday, July 2. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Francis H. Nourse (resumed). 
Direct examination by Mr. Broivn continued. 
The Chairman. When the committee adjourned there was 
pending a question on the admissibility of evidence. Those of 
the committee who were here and heard the arguments will have 
to settle it, 1 suppose. 
Mr. Learnard. Will the chairman state what-the question 
is? 
The Chairman. I understand it to be whether anything ex- 
cept a record, a vote — 
Gov. Butler. Whether there can be any evidence of the 
doings of the trustees — 
/The Chairman. — except the records. 
Gov. Butler. — that don’t appear of record. Whether the 
acts and doings of a body of public officers can rest in the mem- 
ory simply of individual members, and be lost to the world 
whenever — that a board of trustees, in other words, can act 
verbally. They must put their actions and directions in writ- 
ing in some form. If they make an appointment of anybody 
they should put that in writing. If they made a record of it 
without putting it in writing, why, that would be sufficient. If 
they made an appointment in writing without making a record, 
that would be t he record. They may act by a vote, or they may 
act by the signatures of all the parties. A board of trustees 
have no right, unless they have some statute authority, to act 
by majorities even. It would be exceedingly loose. I have 
never heard it done in airy courts of justice. 
Mr. Brown His Excellency has stated the objection. What 2606 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
I wanted to show was what the trustees and the superintendent 
— for thej- are the hoard in this business ; it is not the trustees, 
it is the trustees and the superintendent — I wanted to show 
what they did. Now, there is not any record of the trustees 
and the superintendent, as I understand it. The record is the 
record of the trustees ; that is the only record that has ever 
been kept. I wanted to show simply what had been done ; 
whether it is legal or illegal, I don’t care anything about that. 
I want the committee and the public to draw their own conclu- 
sions whether these people have done right. I want the commit- 
tee to know what they did. That is all. 
The Chairman. This was in reference to the disposition of 
dead bodies. 
Gov. Butler. I want them to know what they did, and I say 
the)T cannot do anything except they do it in the only way that 
public officers can act. There is no board of superintendent 
and trustees ; the superintendent is their subordinate. 
Mr. Gilmore. It seems to me that the committee ought to 
know what the understanding was. I don’t know as to the 
legal point, but it seems to me that the committee ought to know 
what the instructions were, even if they were verbal. 
The Chairman. “ The trustees and the superintendent of 
the state almshouse may ” deliver up bodies. 
Gov. Butler. The superintendent has told 11s that he had 
nothing to do with it, that he left it to the trustees. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t recollect that. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; I asked him specially, and he said 
he left it to the trustees. 
Mr. Brown He said he didn’t have to do with it person-’ 
ally". He said he knew what was going on. 
Gov. Butler. He knew what was done ; 1 understand that. 
Mr. Brown. And his son, Thomas, had been instructed to 
do it by the trustees. I suppose that if this thing cannot be 
gone into in chief, it cannot be gone into on cross-examination. 
Gov. Butler. Of course not. 
Mr. Brown. Then I suppose the record of what these 
people did, so far as there is any, is the only record that can be 
considered. I am perfectly willing to admit it if it is under- 
stood that there is to be no cross-examination on this subject. 
Gov. Butler. What subject do you mean? 
Mr. Brown. And to rety entirely upon the record of these 
trustees. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. BOO. 
2607 
Gov. Butler. I shall not cross-examine as to what the 
trustees did, certainly, except by the records ; but what other 
people did, 1 shall ask about. 
The Chairman. I suppose a verbal order from the trustees, 
or from any one of them, would be sufficient for the superin- 
tendent to act. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly, sir. 
The Chairman. Undoubtedly he would act. 
Gov. Butler. 1 think not, sir. 
The Chairman. Is the committee ready for the question ? 
Is the question withdrawn? 
Mr. Brown. Upon the understanding that there is to be no 
cross-examination upon the subject, I will withdraw the ques- 
tion. 
Gov. Butler. Well, “the subject” is a little large. 
Mr. Brown. I mean the subject as to what these trustees 
did. If there is to be no cross-examination, and the whole case 
is to be proven by the record, then I will stop with the record, 
and 1 ask the governor to stop with it. 
Gov. Butler. On that point I will, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Very well, then, I withdraw it. 
Gov. Butler. I know what the record is. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Mr. Nourse, turn to page 272 of the 
last volume of the records of the trustees, and tell me if that is 
a record of a special meeting held on the 22d day of March, 
1883? A. That purports to be, and I presume is a copy of 
the report made to the board of health, lunacy and charity. 
Q. I mean the whole record from there to there. [Indi- 
cating.] A. Yes ; the report was read. 
Gov. Butler What year? 
Mr. Brown. This present year, 1883. 
The Witness. That I suppose to be a copy of the report 
made to the board of health, lunacy and charity. [Book 
handed to Gov. Butler for inspection.] 
Mr. Brown. Commencing on the other page, Governor — on 
page 272. 
Gov. Butler. I have it, sir. I object to this record. This 
record, on the 22d March, purports to be simply a letter put 
in there about what the trustees had then done, or what had 
been done. It is the first record of anything about dead bodies 
that appears on the books of the trustees, so far as I know. 
If there is an}r other, I beg to be corrected. I have ex- 2608 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
fApr. 
amined it. Here is a letter, a copy of a letter, written by tbe 
witness on the 22d of March, 1883, which begins as follows. 
Mr. Brown. You are putting it in now. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; I am not reading the record to show 
what was done, but to show what the writing is. [Reading.] 
“ Mr. Nourse submitted a letter which had been prepared for the 
state board of health, lunacy and charity, which was read, adopted 
and signed, and, on motion, it was voted that it be copied on the 
records and the original forwarded to the board of health, lunacy 
and charity.” 
Then follows the letter. Now, the question is, whether it 
shall come in — whether this is evidence, under the circum- 
stances. It is not a vote of theirs. It is a letter written to 
somebody after this investigation — after this investigation was 
promoted, and after they saw that they were to be investigated. 
For this investigation is as much a part of the board of trustees 
as anybody else in the management. They are responsible for 
the management. Now, can the board, or anybody else, sign a 
letter in which they make recitals, and make that evidence for 
themselves? Let us take it in a suit. After a summons is 
served, can any corporation, or anybody else, get together and 
sign a letter, and make that evidence of what they have done? 
I think not. It is not a record of their doings, it is a state- 
ment, simply, of what they say has been done, and generally by 
others ; and it is not evidence at all. 
The Chairman. How would it be, Governor, on a question of 
confirming what may have been dope ? 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Chairman. How would it be on the question of confirm- 
ation of proceedings. 
Gov. Butler. . But whether they' confirm it or not is of no 
consequence here. What we are trying to find out is what has 
been done, and not especially who confirmed it. The letter is 
a simple recital of what they say has been done. Now take a 
man who is sued and after notice of suit he sits down and writes 
a letter to somebody else in which he refers to the subject of 
the suit and puts in his story; can it be put in? Everybody 
would say that is too bald ; that could not be done. Now here 
these trustees were about to be investigated. For twentyr-five 
years they never had done anything by their records. After 
they have been investigated — after they know they are to be 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2609 
investigated, can they sit down and make evidence for them- 
selves by a recital ? I respectfully submit it cannot be done, 
and it is improper that they should do it. They had absolutely 
done nothing, as it stands now, because even their verbal acts, 
if they were acts, even their verbal communication each to the 
other it was wrong to review. Now with the investigation pend- 
ing they sit down and write a letter and then want to put that 
letter in evidence, as evidence of what they had or had not 
done, or what somebody else had or had not done, about mat- 
ters which they did not know and which the letter will show 
they did not, and which the letter will show they could not 
know anything about. For instance, suppose the letter should 
sa}’: Mr. Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., delivered so many bodies as 
he tells us ; can they make that evidence in that way — the fact 
that he has delivered so many? If they can, it is an easy, con- 
venient and comfortable wa}T of having not done airything for a 
quarter of a century, and then, after they are about to be inves- 
tigated not doing anything but telling a story. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, the board of health lunacy and 
charity called upon these trustees — 
Gov. Butler. That don’t appear. 
Mr. Brown. Well, it would, if you would allow me to read 
the report — to know what they have done in relation to this 
matter, and this board called upon their agent for a report, and 
he makes a report; and this board of trustees then communicate 
to the board of health lunacy and charity just what they and 
their agent have been doing for ten years, and a copy of the 
communication is embodied in the regular record of the meeting 
of this board of trustees which was held on the 22d of March, 
1883. Now His Excellency objected to my asking this witness, 
commencing with 1873, what he did under that provision of law, 
because that he said it was not a matter of record and it could 
not be gone into, could not be proved — the action of those 
trustees could not be proved in any way except by the record. 
Now I didn’t agree with him in that proposition, but still I saw 
that he was digging a pit into which he was likely to fall, and I 
was perfectly willing to take him at his word. And then I pro- 
duced the record of the trustees at this meeting, which covers a 
period of ten years. It is not made up for any investigation. 
It is a record of facts. It is like the report of any public officer 
to show what moneys he has disbursed, or what acts he has com- 
mitted under authority vested in him, and nothing else— noth- 2610 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
ing else. Now the difficulty which IIis Excellency encounters 
is this : — and it is very apparent, — that having promised not 
to cross-examine upon this subject, he sees that the details of 
this report are to be shut out from him ; and that is just the 
thing he wanted to go into. And lie is struggling between two 
responsibilities ; one is the responsibility to keep his word, and 
the other is the responsibility to go into the inside of this busi- 
ness that he thinks he is charged with. Now I submit that is a 
record made in the ordinary and usual course of business by 
these trustees, on a day when they met and when they were 
charged with the responsibility of answering a communication 
which had been sent to them by their superior officers. I may 
be in error, but somehow I have a sort of lingering notion in 
my mind that the board called for this report in answer to some 
suggestion from His Excellency ; I ma}r be mistaken about it. 
Gov. Butler. I will have their answer to that; I have sent 
for it. 
Mr. Brown. But that this record is competent — why His 
Excellency has argued this into the case when he was upon the 
floor a few moments ago ; and it would be admissible on this 
ground, if on no other, that this was a record of the confirma- 
tion of the various acts which they had been doing during the 
period covered by the report itself. I cannot conceive of any 
ground upon which it is not admissible. 
Gov. Butler. May it please the committee, I am glad it 
has been now announced that this investigation, which ought to 
be sufficiently important to be conducted upon views of public 
duty, is to be conducted upon a little arrangement of making 
pits and digging pits and setting traps for some unwary trav- 
eller to fall into. 
Mr. Brown. You are a very unwary individual. 
Gov. Butler. If that is so, I want you to tell me how we 
are to deal with the facts as they appear in authentic shape. 
Let us see where we are. They offered, in the first place, to 
show, by word of mouth, what the trustees did. The counsel 
was simply setting a trap ; but as 1 happened to know exactly 
what is in that report, and have known it for some months, the 
trap was not baited so as to catch anybody. He withdraws the 
question of what the trustees did by word of mouth, and now 
he says I will prove by record of what they said, in writing,— 
which is only word of mouth as regards them, about what they 
had done by word of mouth — I will prove that indirectly which 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2611 
by withdrawing the question he admitted he could not prove 
directly. And he says that I have promised not to cross- 
examine on this subject. T have promised not to cross-examine 
— for I saw the trap — on the point of whether they had — 
what they had done outside of the record. Now, all that you 
have got to do to make evidence, if this is evidence, is to get 
somebody to write you a letter, and then you write them one, 
and then the whole thing is proved. That is this proposition 
when he comes to make it. And they won’t even produce the 
letter that was written to them either; nor is it quite certain 
whether any was written to them. The proposition is so bald 
that I cannot argue it well; for the reason simply it is an at- 
tempt here to show by what they say they did — because they 
put a copy of their letter on their books; instead of keeping a 
letter book as they should, the}’ put it upon their record book, 
to show 1)}' that letter that they themselves wrote after investi- 
gation admittedly, commenced by somebody — they say it was 
commenced by the board of state charities ; they then write 
them a letter and that letter is before your committee, offered as 
evidence. That is all. Will you allow me to put in Eva Bowen’s 
letters? She has as much right to have her letters considered by 
you as other people, perhaps, have to have theirs. There is no 
sanctity about this board of trustees. I think if J should offer 
them there would be objection and rightly an objection. Will 
you allow me to put in all the letters I have received about what 
these people have been doing? Because, if you will, I can dis- 
pense with a great deal of evidence and the calling of witnesses. 
They say they called upon their agent after somebody had 
called upon them — the first time in a quarter of a century that 
they called upon their agent. And then, having got what he 
says to defend himself, they put that in to defend themselves. 
That is all. Now, if this is not an entire travesty upon all the 
rules of evidence, I have illy learned, what I have never claimed 
to have very well learned — my profession — and the honest 
common principles of justice. And the question is, will the 
committee sanction this little trap? That is all. If they will, 
the}T will vote it so ; if they won’t, they will vote that they shall 
show what they have done, and not what they say they have 
done. I don’t object to any action of theirs on that record, or 
any other way in which that body can act; but I do object, and 
I think I have a right to object, to what they say they have done, 
except they say it under oath, or, by what is the only other method 2612 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. [Apr. 
of their speaking — their record of what they have done, and 
not the record of what they say they have done. It is said it is 
a contemporaneous record. It don’t show anything like it; it 
don’t profess to be that; it simply professes to be a recital of 
what they have done ten years before it is admitted. They sit 
down in March, 1883, and cover their acts for ten years, not in 
confirmation, but in recital. Can that be done? 
The Witness. May I explain under what circumstances? 
Mr. Brown. I find I have made an error. I was drawn 
into it by the statement of His Excellency. And if you will 
allow me to suspend, not to press the question which I have 
asked for a moment, I will ask the witness a question which I 
think wall make it clearer. 
Q. Turn to page 268 and tell me if that is the record of a 
meeting of the trustees in the month of January, 1883? A. 
Yes, sir ; it is. 
Mr. Brown. Now, do you want to examine that record? 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I want to see it. [Record exhibited to 
Gov. Butler.] There is no objection to that, sir. 
Mr. Brown. There is not any? 
Gov. Butler. I should think not. I should think not, 
because it don’t prove anything at all, except one given fact. 
Mr. Brown. Well, the fact is all I care to prove in this 
case. 
Gov. Butler. Well, that is fair. 
Mr. Brown Do you want me to read this list of bills? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; oh, no ; just read what want. 
Mr. Brown. ‘[Reading.] 
“Present at this meeting: Messrs. Nourse and Elliot and Miss 
Pope.” 
“ The hills for December were examined and found receipted.” 
“ The bills for January were examined and approved.” 
“ The Asst. Supt. presented a report of the material furnished for 
the promotion of anatomical science, and, on motion, voted, that the 
same be received and placed mi file.” 
Gov. Butler. All right. 
Mr. Brown. Then follow three other votes. 
Gov. Butler. That is of no consequence. 
Mr. Brown. That record is certified to. 
Gov. Butler. 1 am content. Where is the report? 
“ January Meeting, 1883.” 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2613 
Mr. Brown. Now, it appears that this was not done after 
the investigation was ordered, for that was ordered on the 7th 
day of February. 
Gov. Butler. What was not done? 
Mr. Brown. This report was not made after the investiga- 
tion was ordered ; it was done before the investigation was 
ordered. 
Gov. Butler. What date ? 
Mr. Brown. January, 1883. 
Gov. Butler. What day in January ? 
Mr. Brown. It does not give the date in January ; it was 
in the month of January. I understand the regular meeting is 
held at the end of the month. 
Gov. Butler. I should suppose I could find out when it was 
held. [Referring to the book.] “ Tewksbury, January 25, 
1883.” 
Mr. Brown. The 25th of January ; very well. 
Gov. Butler. The 25th of January ; yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Jan. 25. 
Gov. Butler. All right; this is exactly as it should be. 
And that only proves that Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., made a report, 
which report we don’t see yet. 
Mr. Brown We are not allowed to see it. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I want the report. 
Mr. Brown. We are not allowed to see that, under the 
objection which His Excellency takes, that nothing but the 
record is evidence. 
Gov. Butler. • I have said to the committee over and over 
again that reports would be evidence, made in the usual course 
of business ; but not what somebody says was the report. The 
difficulty is they don’t produce the report; but they produce a 
letter in which somebody says something there was in that 
report That is a plain distinction. I have not objected to 
that letter of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. I am going to have it out 
if he and I live long enough. There won’t be any trouble 
about that. And I shall cross-examine upon it at great length 
until I get the truth, if such thing can be had. What I am 
objecting to is not to the report, not to the action of the trustees, 
but to the letter. Now, if letters are in order, I have a letter 
from the board of health — from the secretary of the board of 
health and charities, on the 19th of February, as to these, dead 2614 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
bodies, and in answer to my inquiries what had become of 
them. 
Mr. Bkown. What is the date, Governor ? 
Qov. Butler. This answer was on February 19, and 1 should 
think it was in answer to my letter — he don’t use the date — 
oh, yes ; in answer to my letter of the 16th. And then to show 
how little about it, he had the impudence to wind up — 
“ Having now answered your Excellency’s questions may I inquire 
whether any reports of the bodies of deceased inmates of any of the 
State institutions have been made to the executive department; and 
if so, at what time or times, and in what places the sale is alleged to 
have taken place?” 
I asked him to furnish me some information, and the impu- 
dent scoundrel turned around and wants me to furnish him with 
my information. And then at the next meeting in March these 
people begin to squirm, and furnish information for the first time 
of anything in their record about dead bodies; and then they 
want to put in what the}" said, and want to swear to what some- 
body said to them. That is the question. 
Mr. Brown. I understood the chief objection of His Excel- 
lency' to the record which I offered in March, was that it might 
have been made up afterward. 
Gov. Butler. Well, it was. 
Mr. Brown. After the investigation was ordered. And it had 
escaped my attention till Mr. Nourse pointed out that at this 
meeting which took place in January, the assistant superintend- 
ent made a report which was placed on file. Now, I have not 
the slightest objection to His Excellency’s having that report, 
and if I live he will get it. 
Gov. Butler. All right. 
Mr. Brown. And he will have all the chance he wants, and 
I think he will meet his match, too. 
The Chairman. Proceed, please. 
Mr. Brown. Now, having disposed of that objection regard- 
ing the meeting in March, by the introduction of the record of 
the meeting in January, I desire to read the report of the meet- 
ing of March 22. 
Gov. Butler. Well, that is the very7 question, 
Mr. Brown. That is precisely the question I press. 
Gov. Butler. Whether that record, being simply a record 
stating — 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2615 
Mr. Brown. It shows that this man, as chairman of the 
board of trustees, or as one of the trustees for many years, did 
his duty. It is a record of what he and his trustees did. Now, 
when we come to somebody else, we "will find out whether they 
did their duty. But let us do one thing at a time. And I ask 
the committee to admit this record of a meeting of the board of 
trustees, which was held on the 22d day of March. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care if my brother has the close upon 
me ; I don’t care to say anything more about it. 
The Chairman. I suppose in this matter the books are all 
before the committee, and the question is whether we should 
consider them sealed up as to that document; whether it is com- 
petent ; whether it has any weight. 
Gov. Butler. Whether it is competent to be made a matter 
of your record. I don’t propose to hinder you from reading 
anything you like ; only I suppose you would not read anything 
that is not competent. 
The Chairman. I suppose we are liable, in fumbling over these 
books, to stumble upon anything, almost. 
[The question was taken on whether the record should be 
read in evidence, and it was voted that the record should be 
read.] 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
SPECIAL MEETING, 
State Almshouse, Tewksbury, March 22, 1883. 
Present, at this meeting: Messrs. Nourse, Elliot and Spalding, 
Mrs. Hammond and Miss Pope. 
Mr. Nouse submitted a letter which had been prepared for the state 
board of health, lunacy and charity, which was read, adopted and 
signed, and on motion it was voted that it be copied on the records, 
and the original sent to the board of health, lunacy and charity. 
To the Board of Health, Lunacy and Charity : 
Gentlemen: — The undersigned, trustees of the State almshouse at Tewks- 
bury, make the following statement in regard to the delivery of dead bodies from 
the institution to the medical colleges. 
According to the provisions of the statutes of the Commonwealth dead bodies 
have been delivered the medical colleges at their request. 
About 1873 it seemed desirable there should be some better system in regard 
to the delivery of these bodies, and that some one person should be specially 
charged in the duty and responsibility of looking after this business. Accord- 
ingly, an arrangement was made with Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., assistant superin- 
tendent, on whose integrity and honesty the Board of Inspectors had the fullest 
confidence, by which he sbQiild take pbe charge of the removals of these bodies 2616 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
so that everything connected with it at Tewksbury should be done decently and 
properly, so as in no event to outrage public feeling. For this extra care and 
labor it was understood that he might receive from the colleges a reasonable 
compensation, which, we understand, he has received, and which, so far as we 
know, has been satisfactory to the colleges. 
A bond, similar to that which the Statutes provide shall be given by a physi- 
cian receiving a body from any almshouse, was required from the colleges before 
bodies were taken by them. 
There are now on the Board of Trustees, but two of those who made this ar- 
rangement. From the report of Thos. J. Marsh, Jr., we find that from Oct. 
19th, 1873, to Oct. 1st, 1882, ,585 bodies were delivered the medical colleges, of 
which 549 were of adults and 36 of children. The whole amount paid by the 
colleges for services connected with furnishing these bodies during that time is 
$8,227.00, of which $5,914.00 was paid the Mannings for transportation of the 
bodies from Tewksbury to the medical colleges, $514.00 to T. J. Hall for assist- 
ance, and $1,799.00 to Thomas J. Marsh* Jr., for his assistance and personal 
oversight at Tewksbury in regard to the removals. 
(Signed) 
F. H. Nourse, 
Geo. P. Elliot, 
Wm. R. Spalding, 
Ellen S. S. Hammond, 
Emily F. Pope, 
Trustees. 
Mr. Nourse presented copy of a personal letter to the chairman 
of the state board of health, lunacy and charity, the original of 
which he had sent, and on motion it was voted that the copy be 
placed on file. 
A supplementary report by T. J. Marsh, Jr , of material furnished 
the medical colleges for anatomical purposes was presented, and on 
motion the same was laid on the table. 
Charles B Marsh, 
Clerk. 
Gov. Butler. Now, will you let me have those written and 
supplementary1' reports, so that we may know what that record is 
that letter is talking about? 
Mr. Brown. I have not got ready to offer them, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. It would be convenient if they should go in 
with the record at the same time. I am glad to see they wanted 
thirty-six babies ; they have all sworn they wouldn’t have any. 
Q. Mr. Elliot — 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Nourse. 
Q. Mr. Nourse —excuse me — did you receive a letter from 
His Excellency Gov. Rice in answer to the report to wrhich I 
have called your attention? A. 1 did. 
Q. Will you produce it? [Letter produced and showq to 
Gov. Butler.] 
Gov, Butler, Certainly. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2617 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
Boston, Sept. 5, 1876. 
F. H. Nourse, Esq., &c , &c., &c 
Dear Sir, — I have received the reply of the inspectors in the 
matter of certain charges vs. the Tewksbury almshouse and its 
officers, which is quite satisfactory. 
Yours, very truly 
Alex. H. Rice. 
Mr. Brown. He is your witness, Governor. 
Gov. Bijtler. Now, will you let me have that volume of the 
records which was put in on Friday 
Mr. Brown. The records for 1876? 
Gov. Butler. 1876. Let me see. That was what time in 
1876? 
Mr. Brown In August or September. 
Gov. Butler. August 31st. Now, get me the printed 
letter, — the printed charges which 1 read to Gov. Rice. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. I see that on the 14th of July you received a letter from 
Gov. Rice, enclosing certain charges made against the manage- 
ment of the Tewksbury almshouse? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. I see that the first action was taken on the 31st of 
August. Am 1 right? A. I am not certain about the dates, 
sir. 
Q. Won’t you make it certain, sir, by looking here? [The 
record book.] A. When those charges were given to me, of 
course they were not presented to the board until their meeting. 
Q. Won’t you look at the record and tell me if anything 
was done with those charges until the 31st of August, so far 
as the board was concerned? A. The first charge was with 
respect — 
Q. Just confine yourself to my question, sir. Just tell 
me from your record, first, when the charges were received ; and 
second, when anything was done with them? A. The first 
occasion, I think, was in the August meeting in 1876. 
Q. What? A. The first occasion was — [Reading.] 
“ On motion, voted, that the charges preferred by the board of 
state charities to the governor, and by him referred to the inspectors, 
be referred to the chairman, who be requested to confer with Mr, 
S afford, and prepare a report to be submitted to the governor,” 2618 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. * 
Q. The first action was taken on what date? I am only 
upon this, sir? A. I cannot tell you what day I received the 
charges ; the first action was August 31. 
Q. Then the first time they appeared upon your record was 
August 31 ? A. I think so, sir. 
Q. I agree to th. t, and so 1 don’t think that, there will be 
any occasion to look any farther. Now, just keep that book. 
[Of records ] And then they were referred to a sub-commit- 
tee? A Yes, sir. 
Q. On what day did that sub-committee make their report? 
A. The day of the meeting ; and then the letter was copied — 
Q. No, sir; I want to know the date of the letter? You 
know as well as I do what I want to know? A. I don’t 
understand you, sir. 
Q. It was referred to a sub-committee on the 31st of August, 
and on the 31st of August you made your report, did you? A. 
The 31st day of August. 
Q. The 31st day of August; yes, sir; and that appears on 
the record. Now, sir, on the 31st da}' of August the trustees 
referred these charges to a sub-committee? A. I think that 
was the date of the report. 
Q. What day were they referred to the sub-committee? A. 
That date I gave, 1 believe. 
Q. Won’t you look and see. They were received and 
referred to a sub-committee on the 31st day of August, were 
they not? A. That seems to be the date of the report by the 
record. 
Q. Well, that is the record, is it not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. I have promised not to cross-examine you on what was 
done outside of the record, and have fallen into a pit on that 
account, I suppose. Now, then, you were chairman of that 
sub-committee? A. I was. 
Q. Then on the 31st of August there were referred for 
your consideration, charges in this way : [ Reading.] 
“First, That upon a visit of inspection made by the board to the 
state almshouse in 1873, the hospital for the sick, the asylum for the 
insane, and the room occupied by the foundling children were found 
either id ventilated, offensive from the effluvia of privies and other 
sources of stench, or infested with vermin ; and that this insanitary 
and improper condition of those parts of the almshouse was then 
made known to the superintendent, and soon after to His Excellency 
Governor Washburn.” 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2619 
“ Second, That in October and November, 1874, certain insane 
women were improperly imprisoned at the Tewksbury almshouse 
(as set forth in report signed by F. R. Sanborn, S. C. Wrightington, 
and Sidney Andrews, now in the hands of your committee) ; that 
this imprisonment was attended with circumstances of gross and 
obvious neglect and hardship, and was unknown to the inspectors 
for a period at least of eight weeks.” 
“ Third, That the mortality among the insane women, in a special 
hospital for such patients at Tewksbury, was excessive and shocking 
during the month of May, 1875, and the early part of June; that the 
responsibility for this mortality rests with Miss Helen M. Marsh, then 
and now assistant physician at the state almshouse, of which her 
father is superintendent and her brother assistant superintendent; 
that this young woman had no such acquaintance with disease and 
insanity, or the proper treatment thereof, as would qualify her for 
such a responsible position; that there was no epidemic or other 
unusual cause of death at the time; and that as soon as the hospital 
in question was put in the direct charge of the physician to the sane 
inmates, Dr. J. 1). Nichols, the mortality instantly diminished; so 
that there were fewer deaths in four months following the 15th of 
June, 1875, than in the thirty-five or thirty-six days between May 5 
and June 8, 1875.” 
“ Fourth, That a former inmate of the almshouse, Phebe A. 
Brink by name, charged one Reed, lately a night watchman at 
Tewksbury with committing fornication, which he more than once 
solicited,'and which took place at the State almshouse one evening 
in September last; that this charge was brought to the notice of the 
board by Mrs. Durant, a State official, on the 29th of December last, 
and was at once investigated by the general agent, Mr. Wrightington, 
who believed the fact to be as charged, and reported the matter to 
the superintendent, Mr. Marsh, and to the watchman, Reed; that the 
latter denied it, but at the first opportunity gave up his place and left 
the almshouse as if guilty.” 
“ Fifth That the discipline of the almshouse has been, and contin- 
ues so lax, that such offences as are charged against Reed, may be, 
and have been committed; resulting, in some instances in the birth 
of bastard children who were begotten in the almshouse, probably 
by some of the male inmates; that other attempts of the same kind 
have been made, and that almost any scandal might arise there in 
consequence of this loose and improper discipline.” 
Now, then, those were the charges submitted, and it was 
found by a committee composed of Mr. Sanborn, Mr. Wright- 
ington and Mr. Andrews — “ Charge first; facts proven. Charge 
second; facts proven; imprisonment, illegal and improper. 
Charge third ; facts proven ; deductions not proven — facts of 2620 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
death.” And also it was “ reasonable to say that Miss, the assis- 
tant physician, Miss Marsh, is not so well fitted, by experience 
or education, as to be able to fill the position in a superior man- 
ner, especially as regards the care of the insane sick.” “Charge 
fourth, allegations not proven. “ That was all right. “ Charge 
fifth ; facts proven ; ” there being only two bastards born, Now, 
then, that was the letter which was referred to you, containing 
the charges of Governor Rice, on the 31st of August, as a 
sub-committee ? A. I presume so ; I have no way of recognizing 
them. 
Q. I will send for the original if you want to see it. A. I 
don’t doubt it. 
Q. Very well; now upon those — then there was another 
charge in that letter which don’t appear here. There was 
also a charge of libertinism on the part of Tom Marsh, wasn’t 
there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And there was also a charge that the old woman stole the 
inmates’ clothing? A. I don’t know what 30U mean, Gov- 
ernor, by ‘ the old woman.” 
Q. I mean old Mrs. Marsh. A. Well, they charged some- 
thing against Mrs. Marsh. 
A. I distinguish her from the younger one by the term 
“ old.” Now, then, on the same 31st day of August your com- 
mittee report as follows: 
“ The charges in the first division have been thoroughly investi- 
gated and adjudicated by a committee of the legislature ” — 
And that is “charges affecting the management of the alms- 
house by the superintendent and his officers.” 
—“ to which your Excellenc}7 is respectfully referred.” 
“ The undersigned have made all reasonable effort to accomplish 
any reform suggested.” 
“ The medical department has been carefully reorganized with a 
competent corps of physicians and nurses under the act of the legis- 
lature ” 
“ Two of the six assistants who are members of the superintend- 
ent’s family have already resigned.” 
“ The charges made under the second head have received the at- 
tention from the legislature to which they seem entitled.” 
The second head being “ Charges touching private charac- 
ter.” Nowr, had the charges touching private character been at 
all before the legislature, sir? That is. the charges against Mrs, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2621 
Marsh, and the charges of libertinism on the part of Tom J. 
A. Well, sir, I am not able to say. 
Q. Undoubtedly; and it states that it was not. A. I 
should not care to testify. 
Q. They were not made before the legislature, and you have 
the report of the legislature before you. A. I would say that 
the examination there took a very wide range, and perhaps a 
wider range than the charges that were made. 
Q. Well, is there anything in the evidence or in the report 
upon those charges? You wrote that letter? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, having the report before you, why did you say so, 
if it was not true? A. I think, sir, that questions touching 
those matters which you speak of were brought out in evidence. 
I think that touching the character of the superintendent — of 
Thomas J. Marsh — I think those were brought out in the in- 
vestigation, but not in direct charge. That is why I answer in 
that way. 
Q. Then, did that justify you in saying that those charges 
under the second head “ have received the attention from the 
legislature to which the}" were entitled. They have long and 
favorably known the officer accused,” etc. Now, then, did 
they receive any attention from your committee, or any atten- 
tion from the legislature? A. I think they did, sir. 
Q. You may have to come here again at the next meeting ; 
won’t you bring the evidence upon which you made, as trustees, 
this solemn declaration ; when they didn’t receive it at all, and 
were not there at all in any way. Now, if you can find it, 
bring it. A. If you wish me to explain, I will say that those 
charges were considered a long time before* any direct charges 
were made. 
Q. Not by the legislature? A. Yes, sir ; by a committee 
of the legislature, before any direct charges were made. 
Finally, charges were made. It was insisted that charges 
should be made, and that somebody should father them. They 
came in a general way. 
Q. Now, if you can find anything, Mr. Nourse, in writing 
on earth to justify the statement that you have made here, that 
those charges, three of them — and I will call your attention to 
them — the libertinism of Tom Marsh, the stealing by his 
mother, and the incompetency of his sister as physician, by 
which they died — if you can find anything anywhere in print 
on earth, you bring it here ; and you had better bring it to clear 2622 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
yourself. A. I can answer, Governor, those charges with re- 
lation to Helen Marsh, if you wish. 
Q. I don’t want you to answer those charges. That is not 
the question. If you can find anywhere where those were ex- 
amined by the legislature as you say here they were, will you 
have the kindness to fetch it. 
Mr. Brown. No sir; he said they received the attention 
they deserved. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. That is not the question. Now, 
we will come and see if we can find they received any. A. I 
stated to your Excelleny that the investigation received — was 
conducted very widely. The investigation had proceeded seve- 
ral days, and no written charges had been made, when those 
written charges were made. 
Q. Are you pretty sure about that, now? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That the investigation proceeded several days before any 
charges were made? A. Before any written, direct charges 
were made. I recollect that the chairman insisted that before 
they would go any further somebody should father them. No- 
body fathered them at first; finally, Mr. Sanborn fathered 
them. 
Q. Never mind ; I am not asking you about that. That is 
an evasion of my question. A. I do not intend to evade it. 
Q. I am only talking about the fact. Now, if you will find 
me anywhere, whether before or after those written charges 
were lqade, where they received the attention of the legislature, 
you will oblige me ; if not, I shall make some use of the want 
of it; such use of the want of it as I think it deserves. Now, 
let us go on. Theit you go on and say : 
“ They have long and favorably known the officer accused. They 
have found no occasion to question his integrity or purity of charac- 
ter and conduct during an official career of more than eighteen 
years.” 
Now, sir, that officer being charged, whom did you inquire 
of, as a sub-committee, as to whether he had been guilty of 
libertinism or not. A. I made no inquiry, sir, excepting of him- 
self. There were-no names given for us to inquire of. 
Q. You inquired of nobody but himself? A. There were 
no names given. 
Q. You made no inquiries of anybody but himself, and he 
said he didn’t do it? A. There were no names given. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2623 
Q. And then yon reported that he didn’t do it? A. I take 
the report as it reads. 
Q. Now, then, in regard to the next charge. You then go 
on and say that you have made no investigation because you 
are of the opinion it would not be proper to put Mr. Marsh 
upon his trial on so grave a charge, which, by merely being 
made, would so seriously atfect his good name, standing upon 
mere rumor. Pardon me ; you wrote that. Didn’t you think 
that the charge of the board of state charities was suffi- 
ciently formal to require investigation at your hands — which 
the board of state charities had made to the governor — the 
whole body of them — and had been referred three times to 
three different governors ; and the last governor had told you to 
investigate it. Now, didn’t you think that was sufficiently 
grave? The charge was made ; so that Tom Marsh’s character 
was affected as much as it could be by the charge. Now, was 
not that sufficiently formal for you to investigate? A. We 
had no authority to call for any person to appear before us. 
Q. Pardon me ; that is not the reason whj* you didn’t do it. 
You didn’t put in that reason — this charge that had been made 
calling for an investigation of the character of Mr. Tom Marsh, 
we had no authority to send for persons and papers, and there- 
fore we didn’t do it — If you had said that, that is what you 
want to say now, why didn’t you do it then? A. I am 
willing to stand by the record as it is. 
Q. Just stand by it, then, and don’t alter it? A. I do, 
sir. 
Q. Then the reason was that you could not send for per- 
sons and papers ? A. I suppose you would understand that, 
sir. 
Q. You could have asked the inmates of the almshouse, the 
mothers of children — the mothers of the bastard children. A. 
Was I to go around and ask all those women ? 
Q. No ; nobody else, only the mothers of bastard children? 
A. The bastard children were very small in number. 
Q. I know ; and going around and asking them would be all 
the easier. Now, let us go on a little. 
“ We have, however, made no formal investigation of this charge, 
as in our opinion it would not be proper to put Mr. Marsh upon his 
trial upon a charge so grave, and which by merely being made 
would so seriously affect his good name and standing, upon mere 
rumor. If charges like these are to be investigated formally by us, 2624 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
they should 1 >e preferred in writing, with the assurance that they 
could be substantiated by some direct testimony.” 
You had had the charges preferred in writing, and the assurance 
of the board of health — the board of state charities — made to 
the governor that they believed enough in them to make them, 
and the}’ had been sent by the governor for you to investigate. 
And that is your answer. Now let us try again. 
“ We don’t consider it our duty to go forth prospecting among 
loose women to find evidence of such gossip. It is enough for us 
now to say that we have informed Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., of the 
charge, and he assures us that it is utterly devoid of truth.” 
That is the plea of “ not guilty,” isn’t it, made by every thief 
in every court? A. 1 don’t know what inference you may 
draw. I don’t know as any names were given us to refer to. 
Q. Now, “prospecting among loose women” — the loose 
women were in your establishment, under his charge, weren’t 
they, that are referred to? A. Well, there wrere a good many 
mothers of bastard children there, and I suppose you would call 
those loose women. 
Q. Undoubtedly ; and some were born there ; so that they 
must have been begotten? A. Out of the thousands of people 
w'ho have been there for the last twenty years, I have known 
but three. 
Q. Then you could have asked those three women who was 
the father of their children, couldn’t you? It would have been 
short work? A short horse soon curried? A. Those people 
answer if they want to, and if they don’t they won’t. 
Q. When they refused to answer then you are excused. 
You asked Marsh if he wras guilty. He was as loose as the 
rest. You asked the loose side on one side, and didn’t ask the 
loose side on the other. A. I read the charges to him. 
Q. [Reading.] “ We have no knowledge of any deficiency 
of fifteen hundred dollars, or of any other amount, in the ac- 
count of the institution.” What examination of the books did 
you make about that? A. Well, sir, since I have been con- 
nected with the institution I have examined the books every 
year. 
Q. Very like. Now. you are notified that there was a de- 
ficiency of some fifteen hundred dollars. Did you make any 
examination about that? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2625 
Q. When? A. I made examination at that time in refer- 
ence to our previous examinations. 
Q. Leave out previous examinations. I want to know what 
}Tou did then? A. I cannot say we did anything then except- 
ing as I have stated, that our general examination bore us out 
in making that statement; because it had been made year by 
year. 
Q. I agree. But the statement is — look at the statement; 
the statement is that you have no knowledge about it. 1 sup- 
pose if you were a director of a bank, and you had examined 
the accounts and thought them all right, and then there was a 
charge made of a deficiency, you would not content yourself 
with simply saying, “ Well, I didn’t know there was anything,” 
and make no further examination? A. I think, if you will 
allow me, this is an entirely different thing. 
Q. I want you to answer my question. Would }tou content 
yourself with that as a director of a bank? A. No, sir. 
Q. Very well; now, sir, as one having the Commonwealth’s 
money in charge, when a charge comes from the board of state 
charities through the governor to you, that there is a deficiency 
of fifteen hundred dollars, why didn’t you examine ? A. Will 
you allow me to explain? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. No money is drawn from the treasury 
excepting on bills approved and sworn to b}r the trustees. 
When that money comes we know what disposition is made of 
it. We examine all the bills and find them to be receipted, and 
find that the amount drawn from the treasury corresponds with 
the amount of these bills paid. How under heaven could there 
be a deficiency of fifteen hundred dollars? 
Q. Well, if they had not been examined — A. Well, I 
assure you these have been, very closely. 
Q. That is a thing that will always check itself. But sup- 
pose there had been fifteen hundred dollars’ worth sold from the 
farm and not accounted for? A. I think that could not have 
been done without our knowledge. 
Q. Why not? A. Why, of course we are not there all the 
time to see, but if any misdemeanor of that kind should have 
occurred I think we should very soon find it out. 
Q. Very likely; did you examine for it? A. I cannot say 
that I did. 
Q. Now, then, here was a charge that fifteen hundred dollars 
was gone, and you contented yourself with reporting that you 2626 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
have no knowledge about it, and you never asked anybody about 
it. A. I think we did inquire about it. 
Q. Well, who did you inquire of? A. I think we inquired 
of Capt. Marsh. 
Q. And he told you he didn’t know? A. He could not tell 
us. 
Q. Did he stop there? A. I think so, sir. 
Q. You asked Tom if he was a libertine and he said no. 
You asked the Captain if he had stolen the money and he said 
no ; and that was the end of the investigation ? A. There 
is no charge there that the property had been sold. 
Q. Pardon me ; fifteen hundred dollars? The charge is that 
there is a discrepancy in the accounts to the amount of fifteen 
hundred dollars. A. If 3011 will allow me I will explain still 
further. It is utterly impossible for the trustees to know what 
property is sold. 
Q. Well, I know it; I understand that? A. We must 
trust the honesty and integrit3T of those doing the business, and 
we have no check on that. 
Gov. Butler. Ver37 well. 
The Witness. Very well. It would be utterly impossible 
to have it. 
Q. Let us see if it was. It was impossible in the wa3r 3'ou 
conducted business. Let us see if it is impossible. You have 
ever3r 3rear a report of property on hand, a report of what has 
been raised ; and 3rou ought to have a report of how that has 
been expended. And then, with those reports, which, on the 
Lowell Railroad you would have had to have made, would there 
have been any difiicuhy in finding out if people had stolen 
fifteen hundred dollars? A. There would be difficulty sup- 
posing somebody of the help on the road—some of the road 
men might sell property without its being known for the time 
being. 
Q. 1 am not talking about the road men. If they had sold 
the propert3r 3Tou would have found you had lost it? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Who got it you might not find? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. But you didn’t even ask? You were told it was gone, 
and you never asked anybody except Capt. Marsh who said he 
didn’t know. Well, we will go to the next. Now we will come 
to another thing. Oh, before I go to that; did you ever exam- 
ine the inmates’ cash-book? A. Well, no particular examina- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2627 
tion. I have asked several times to see the record that was 
made and have been shown the memorandum. 
Q. Then all the examination you ever made was that 3Tou 
have asked if there was a memorandum made, and that was 
shown to you and you satisfied yourself with that? A. The 
memorandum was shown to me, 
Q. Did you know that there never had been — did you 
inquire far enough to know that there never had been any 
receipt taken when money was paid or supposed to have been 
paid by the inmates? A. Never was a receipt given to them 
either way ; no receipt given, as lunderstancl. 
Q. Then it was left to Charles Marsh, or whoever was in 
his place, to take whatever money he could get from the inmates 
and returning as little as he chose, and there was no earthly way 
of knowing how the accounts stood? A. I could not answer 
that. 
Q. Then the condition of things was that Mr. Charles 
Marsh, or whoever was in his place, could take any amount of 
money he could get from the inmates and give no receipt for it, 
and pay out just as little or as much as he chose and take no 
receipt for it, and there was no earthly way in which his doings 
could be known? A. No, sir; no way. 
Q. How long have you been there? A. Twenty years. 
Q. And you have let that system of robbing the inmates go 
on for twenty years ? A. I didn’t say robbing the inmates, 
sir. 
Q. Well, that system that existed? A. I don’t want you 
to put that in my mouth, because I don’t admit it; I say it was 
honest and straightforward. 
Q. Although you knew they were robbed day by da}T? A. 
I could not tell, sir. 
Q. And }rou allowed that to go on for twenty years, when 
there was no rule for you or anybody else to tell whether the3r 
were being robbed, didn’t you ? A. It would be exceedingly 
difficult. I could conceive of how it could be done ; it would be 
a great deal of labor. 
Q- What labor? A. For instance, if he gives receipts for 
all money received, when he came to pay those receipts should 
come back, in order to keep his accounts straight. 
Q. Pardon me ; undoubtedly. A. The inmates could not 
give receipts for the money the3r received. 
Q. Why not? A. A great many of them could not write. 2628 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
They would have to call for somebody to identify their signa- 
tures. You could keep an account with each individual pauper, 
a debit and credit account; but I submit whether it would be 
proper for a clerk to be hired for that purpose. The sums are 
small; all the way from twenty-five cents upwards. 
Q. Stop a moment, and let us see. There is an account 
now of what money he says he received, and what money 
he says he paid out — that is kept? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, suppose that when he got money from a pauper he 
gave a receipt for it. It is to be paid out to the pauper when 
he goes out. Now, he is not going a great ways with the re- 
ceipt ; it is going to be there until he goes away. Any diffi- 
culty in his taking a receipt? A. You see some of them could 
not write—a good many of them. 
Q. Aren’t there thousands of mills which employ people who 
do not write, and don’t they have to take receipts on their pay 
rolls? Why don’t you do your business as }*ou would do it 
everywhere else? Dr. Nichols personally signed this charge, 
didn’t he, of the discrepancy in the accounts? A. No, sir; 
not that I know of. I think not, sir. 
Q. [Reading.] 
“ The financial statements have always been carefully examined 
by us, and we are fully satisfied that all the money received from the 
treasury of the Commonwealth has been duly disbursed, and we have 
no reason to doubt that all the money received from inmates, or for 
the sale of anything from the institution, has been duly accounted 
for. It is further understood, that Dr. Nichols, who signed the 
charges alluded to, has no personal knowledge of the alleged facts, 
and that they rest merely on the gossip of the malicious, lewd and 
wanton.” 
Very well; then it was charged first by Dr. Nichols, the steal- 
ing? A. No, sir. That language may be ambiguous, but I 
think there was no charge from Dr. Nichols about the money 
being stolen. The language might convey that, but it was not 
the fact. 
Q. Let us see : “ It is further understood that Dr. Nichols ” 
— after citing these charges of the deficit in the account, and 
the statement in regard to the inmates’ account— “ it is further 
understood that Dr. Nichols, who signed the charges alluded to ” 
— A. Alluded to in these charges ; not there, but in the 
charges. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2629 
Q. Didn’t he sign these very charges? A. I think not, 
sir. 
Q. Will you look and see ? A. It is my impression that he 
did not. 
Q. But you say it in here? A. He signed some charges. 
Q. Well, were not these about Mrs. Marsh stealing and the 
discrepancy of fifteen hundred dollars among them? A. My 
impression is that Dr. Nichols was discharged. 
Q. Now, don’t go to slandering Dr. Nichols when I am 
asking you another question? A. I wanted to state the truth, 
sir. 
Q. I understand. You want to state the truth where you 
think it would do somebody some harm, and Dr. Nichols being 
dead it is easy to slander him? A. No, sir. 
Q. Will you answer my question: whether Dr. Nichols 
didn’t sign these charges as made here ; first, about the fifteen 
hundred dollars; second, about the inmates’ money not being 
accounted for ; third, about their clothing being stolen? A. I 
think, sir, I would not undertake to swear against the record, 
whatever you have got. My impression is, that he didn’t make 
the charge about the money being short. 
Q. Did he make the charge about the clothing being stolen ? 
A. I don’t like to swear about it, if you have the record of it, 
because of course, whatever the charges are, they show for 
themselves. 
Q. Now, then, did you make any investigation of those 
charges whatever? A. Which? 
Q. Those I have last read. First, about the deficiency in 
the accounts ; you told me about the fifteen hundred dollars. 
Second, about the inmates’ money; you say you never did that. 
Now about the clothing being stolen ; did you investigate that? 
A. I made some inquiry. 
Q. Who did you inquire of? A. I inquired of Capt. Marsh, 
and he told me — 
Q. Never mind what he told you. Who else? A. Thomas J. 
Q. Who else? A. Charles Marsh. 
Q. Who else? A. I don’t think of anybody else. 
Q. Very well. When Tom Marsh was accused of libertin- 
ism you inquired of him and he said he didn’t do it. When the 
money was short you inquired of the old man and he said he 
didn’t know anything about it. When the old woman was ac- 
cused of stealing the inmates’ clothing why didn’tjrou inquire of 2630 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
her and let her tell what she kneAv? A. I will tell you. We 
had inquired of Capt. Marsh. 
Q. I say leave out Capt. Marsh. A. He told us what be- 
came of it. 
Q. You inquired of Tom when he wras accused of liber- 
tinism; you inquired of the Captain when the accounts were 
supposed to be short; now, when the old lady was accused 
of stealing the inmates’ clothing, why didn’t you inquire of her? 
Stick to that. A. I didn’t think it was necessary ; the superin- 
tendent was the head of the concern. 
Q. The superintendent was at the head? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, he was not charged with stealing the clothing? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. So, if he was at the head of the establishment, why 
didn’t you inquire of him about the libertinism of Tom? Why 
didn’t you give the old lady a chance to deny ? A. I didn’t 
deem it necessary. 
Q. Why not, when you inquired of her husband? A. I 
said that he was the head of the concern, and he was supposed 
to know. 
Q. But he was not accused of the stealing ; it might have 
been done without his knowledge. She was an official, at that 
time, in the institution ; a matron, under pa}r, wasn’t she? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Then you made no inquiries upon that. Now, then, I 
will let you tell what you want to tell, because I am going to 
produce some of that here. You inquired of the old man and 
he said that he did take the clothing, but he made it up into car- 
pets and rugs? A. 1 didn’t say that, sir. 
Q. What did you say? A. The clothing of inmates who 
died, the clothing that was left there, that was taken and made 
over for other inmates, unless called for by the friends. 
Q. This clothing was taken and made over. Was that all 
he said ? A. I think he said there was some made into mats. 
Q. Made into mats for the institution, of course ? A. Yes, 
sir ; 1 know nothing about anything else except the institution. 
Q. Then some was made into mats, and you have stopped 
there. Well, that clothing — we have had a great many inquir- 
ies whether the persons that went away made any charges about 
having their clothing stolen. Did 3 011 ever hear an}' complain 
of having lost their clothing within twent}' years? A. I think 
once or twice. I recollect when an old man went awajr and 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2631 
said he had some clothes that were sent for afterwards to get 
them. 
Q. Any other case? A. I have no recollection of any but 
what they acknowledged the receipt of; there may have been 
during all that time ; I would not swear there had not. 
Q. Was that a man or a woman? A. This was a man. 
Q. Now, don’t you know that a member of this committee 
once came there after the clothing of an old man and couldn’t 
find it? A. No, sir, 
Q. Sure about that? A. No, sir. 
Q. That would have been a matter you would have been 
likely to recollect? A. I should think so, possibty. 
Q. But we are now upon the question of inquiry; and you 
inquired of Capt. Marsh, and he told you, and that was the ex- 
tent of that inquiry. Now, let us go on a little further. [Read- 
ing.] “ Special attention should be made to a letter signed by 
one Bernard O’Kane, accompanying these papers. This person 
was detailed to labor in the institution at the urgent request of 
Governor Andrew”—he was one of Governor Andrew’s ap- 
pointments— “and was soon discharged for drunkenness and 
undue familiarity with female inmates, offences which he did 
not pretend to denj . Since that date he has been a chronic 
slanderer of the institution and its officers.” 
Did 3’ou inquire, as a sub-committee, about Mr. Bernard 
O’Kane, of him ? A. No, sir. 
Q. You did not? A. No, sir; we had his letter. 
Q. I understand }'ou had his letter, but did you inquire of 
him as to the truth of the charges? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did }Tou ask him if he was — did he sa}T in the letter that 
he had been unduty familiar with the inmates? A. I think 
not, sir. 
Q. Did he say in his letter that he was guihy of drunk- 
enness? A. 1 presume not. The letter is there. 
Q. Then he did not. Very well. Now, then, you reported 
against him without any inquiry from him. Why didn’t you 
ask him, as 3rou did Tom Marsh, whether he got drunk, and let 
him deny it? A. We asked the officers of the institution. 
Q. You did? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Why not give Mr. O’Kane the same chance 3am did Tom 
Marsh and the Captain? Why did you put O’Kane into the 
category with the old woman whom you didn’t inquire of? A, 2632 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
I believe I said that we could not sit as a court and could not 
summon these people before us. 
Q. Yes, but pardon me ; he would come to make good his 
charge ; was he there? A. I don’t know whether he was there 
or not. 
Q. But he could have been sent for. Did you send for him? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Therefore he didn’t refuse to come? A. No, sir. 
Q. Very well. [Reading.] “ The undersigned, desire to say 
in regard to our own course ” — you then wanted to defend 
yourselves, which is natural. Now, then, here was a charge 
against Miss Helen Marsh that rather struck at her private char- 
acter, didn’t it, accusing her of incompetence as a physician, 
and accusing her of causing the death of other people? A. 
We were conversant with her course there and we knew without 
investigation and we were able to report of our own knowledge. 
Q. You were able to report of your own knowledge. Now, 
sir, those charges were all submitted to you on one day, the 
31st of August. And you made a report upon them that would 
have taken, in this large book, one-half, one, two and more 
pages, on the same day. You made a report on them, and wrote 
this long letter that would have taken pretty near half a day to 
write? A. I think, sir, that that report — the receipt of the 
charges is not recorded on the book. 
Q Pardon me ; you must not state anything outside of the 
books ; because I am in a trap, you know, and I can’t get out 
of that trap ; I have got to stick to the books. I have got to 
stick to the books; and that is what the books show, that it was 
done on the same day. I want the public and the committee 
to understand exactly what sort of an investigation we have 
had heretofore. And not only that, but on the 4th of Septem- 
ber you sent the letter away ; so that you could not have had 
but four days, and one a Sunday? A. The clerk made the 
records ; I did not. 
Q. Do you mean to charge any suspicion against the correct- 
ness of his records? A. No, sir; 1 leave him to answer for 
himself. 
Q. Why is that observation made? A. The object is that 
I don’t care to swear upon that. 
Q. The record is that you had these charges referred to you 
on one day, on the 31st of August, and on the same da}’ you 
report as a sub-committee. On the same day you reported a 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2633 
letter — you made a report in a letter dated that day, and it was 
sent on the 4th day of September? A. I think I could ex- 
plain that. 
Gov. Butler. Well, Mr. Brown will ask you, if he wants to, 
because I am not to let my cross-examination go outside of the 
record ; then I can follow him if he does. 
Mr. Brown. I am always ready to get }tou out of difficulty. 
Q. Now, Mr. Nourse — and then when you made a report to 
Governor Rice — after it appeared that on the 31st of August 
you had had these charges referred to }'OU, and upon the 31st 
of August you had made a report upon them, he said that the 
investigation was highly satisfactory, and we have had his let- 
ter. Let me have that letter ; we may be wrong about it. He 
had sent all these things for you to investigate, you had made 
this report to him, and on the 5th of September he wrote to 
you : “ I have received the reply of the inspectors in the mat- 
ter of certain charges against the Tewksbur}r almshouse and its 
officers, which is quite satisfactory. Yours, very truly, Alexan- 
der H. Rice. ” Governor Rice, then, was entirely satisfied that 
you should spend but one day on all these charges, was he? 
A. I think I could explain, sir. I don’t think I have ex- 
changed a word with him since. 
Q. Now, I want to come to this matter of dead bodies. I)o 
you know of any official action by your board, entered upon your 
records — because that is all I am going to ask about — made 
about dead bodies until the 22cl of March, 1883 — this year? 
A. I know of nothing upon the records, sir. I do know vari- 
ous other matters connected with it, but they are not a matter of 
record. 
Q. Now, then, on this 22d of March, 1883, }tou wrote this 
letter? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. It speaks of Tom Marsh being your agent for the dispo- 
sition of bodies. Did he report to you — when was the first 
time that he ever reported to you? A. That was the first time 
that there was ever any written report upon the records. 
Q. Ever any written report? A. That written report was 
the first. 
Q. That written report was the first? A- He made a re- 
port in January. 
Q. Did you read that report? A. I did. 
Q. Did he produce any hook or account, or vouchers for the 2634 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
account? A. At the time of the report, —if you will allow 
me to explain 1 can cover the ground. 
Q. Pardon me; I don’t want any ground covered. Will 
you answer my question? There has been too much covering 
ground; I am uncovering. Will you answer my question? 
Did he produce any records, any books, any account of what 
he had done with all the bodies for ten years? A. Not in that 
report; but he did submit such books to the inspectors at a 
previous time. 
Q. At a previous time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He didn’t at that time? When did he first submit those 
books? A. 1 think — it was in the month of December, 
I think. 
Q. The month of December previous? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He submitted the books. Did he volunteer them, or did 
you ask him? A. I asked for them in September. 
Q. Had you ever asked for them before? A. No; I talked 
with him frequently, but never asked for a report. 
A. For books, 1 am talking about? A. No, sir. 
Q. Answer m3r question, and don’t answer anything else. 
Now, when was the first time you ever asked him for the books? 
A. For the report? I — 
Q. For the books—I have changed my question? A. 
Well, sir, I asked for a report — 
Q. When did you for the first time ask for the books? A. 
And in answer to the request for the report he — 
Q. Answer my question. A. I did, sir. 
Q. When did you first ask him for the books? Speak by 
the almanac. A. I didn’t ask at all for the books. 
Q. Never asked? Have you ever asked for the books, down 
to this day ? A. The books were presented with his report. 
Q. Answer my question. Have you ever asked for those 
books down to to-day? A. No, sir; no necessity of asking 
when he presented them. 
Q. What? A. No necessity of asking when he presented 
them. 
Q. Now, what books — when did he first present the books? 
A. Those books that — 
Q. When did he present the books? A. I was trying to 
recollect, sir. My impression is it was December when he first 
presented them. 
Q. What books did he present? A, Memorandum books, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2635 
on which were recorded the names of persons sent to various 
institutions — colleges. 
Q. In December? A. I think that was in December. 
Q. What kind of a memorandum book? A. It would be a 
small memorandum book — quite small. 
Q. Like a pass-book? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then he had accounts of these bodies upon pass-books? 
How many of them had he? A. I should think there were 
four or five of them. 
Q. One for each institution? A. No, sir; they were on 
the same page, what had been sent to different institutions. 
Q. And these pass-books were kept by him, or others? A. 
Well, sir, he presented them ; I cannot tell who kept them ; 
I suppose he did. 
Q. Did you examine them ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know who kept them? A. What do you 
mean ; the record kept on them ? 
Q. I mean keeping the books. Don’t you know what I 
mean by keeping a book? A. Well, possession is one thing, 
and making a record another. He made the record, as far as I 
saw, by the handwriting. 
Q. The record was in his handwriting? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well. And have \tou ever seen those books since 
December? A. I think not, sir. 
Q. Did he take them away with him? A. Well, we left 
them. We didn’t take them. I left them with the same party 
who produced them. 
Q. Who produced them? A. Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. 
Q. He produced them and he took them away? Well, those 
were books produced by him as officer and agent of the board, 
was he? A. He presented them in response to a call for a 
report. 
Q. He presented the books ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, those were books of an officer and agent of the 
board to do a very important work, was it not? A. Yes, sir. 
I required a report. 
Gov. Butler. [To the witness.] I understand, you re- 
quired a report. [To the committee.] Now, may it please 
the committee, I have been ever since—lo, these four months, 
calling for books from this institution, and asking that all the 
books should be produced of every name, nature and de- 
scription ; and we have had sworn replies here that they all 2636 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
were produced. And then, after I had cross-examined a while, 
there would be some more, and the}’’ would be brought. Then I 
would call again, and would be brought. Now I respect- 
fully submit that I have now got some new books — yes, I 
guess I have got it right — I have got some books of the most 
important thing entrusted to this institution ; to which mone\' is 
paltr}7—of what has been done with the Commonwealth’s dead. 
I want those books to cross-examine this witness upon. The 
committee have been trifled with long enough. 
Mr. Mellen. If there are still more books at this institution 
and they have not been produced, relative to this case, it 
seems to me we ought to have them without a motion. But as 
it has been the practice to make a motion, as it has been a mat- 
ter of dragging them from the defence from the beginning of the 
investigation up to the present time, I move that this gentleman, 
or whoever has got possession of the books, deliver them to this 
committee as quick as possible. 
Gov. Butler. Having brought the matter to the attention of 
the committee I leave it. Of course the committee are to vindi- 
cate their own honor. It is a question in which theirs is in- 
volved, not mine. 
The Chairman. The committee, as I understand it, were in- 
formed that there were no books of record of the institution 
showing the names of parties sent; but there is an understand- 
ing that there was a memorandum book of some kind. If that 
is the book you want, I suppose it is — 
Gov. Butler. I want all the books. 
The Chairman. In the possession of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. 
Gov. Butler. An officer of the institution ; assistant super- 
intendent of the live and chief superintendent of the dead. 
The Chairman. I question the policy — I don’t know your 
object — of spreading upon the record the names of the per- 
sons whose bodies have been delivered to public institutions. 
The number you are to have and you have had. 
Gov. Butler. Why, if I can get the books, sir, I can show 
them false. I am not going to spread upon the record the names, 
unless somebody else wants to do it. I have got other lists 
here, and I want to see who was sent to Harvard and who to 
other colleges. And then when they say, that only so many and 
such men were sent I want to show that that is not true. And 
I don’t think that we ought to be trifled with ; I don’t w,anf to be ; 
the committee may have a fancy for it themselves, 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300 
2637 
The Chairman. I don’t think anybody wishes to be trifled 
with, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. The committee may fancy that these people 
may trifle with them as much as they please; I don’t. I have 
asked here, ever since last March — the 30th I think; some 
where along there — three, four or five times over, for every 
memorandum book. A small number have been produced here, 
and the committee have been assured by Mr. Brown, over and 
over again, that they had them. And I have been employing 
experts to examine, with such light as I had, those books. Early 
in this investigation it came out that the great point of my 
examination was to find out what had happened to the dead ; 
because the living can take care of themselves. And I asked 
for the dead-books over and over again, as your records will 
show. I asked : is there any record? And I got one from Mr. 
Chase — 
Mr. Brown. You mean Mr. Hall — 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Hall; and he was instantly attacked. 
It now turns out that he was a duly accredited agent; and that 
book will have some bearing by and by. Now, I want all 
books of all this that they have here now. It has been sworn 
over and over again that there were no books,— I have asked 
everybody that I thought knew anything about it,—that there 
were no books kept; no books kept by anybody. Now, it is in 
evidence that Mr. Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., was duly appointed in 
1873 by these trustees to do the most important work a man 
ever'had to do, in my judgment,— to deal with the defenceless 
dead, and send their bodies to the dissecting-knife. I was told 
there was no record; and now' it turns out there is. And I 
want that record produced, or I want the committee to vote that 
we shall not have that record ; if they do, I am content. I can get 
along pretty much anyway. But I am determined not be played 
with, myself, upon this question of books. They were in exist- 
ence last December. It took from September to December to 
make them up. And now they are in existence, and I want the 
books. And the man who has got them is an officer of this in- 
stitution — or was — in a double capacity. It is within the 
power of the committee to send for persons and papers. The 
committee has made an order, over and over again, upon the 
officers of this institution ; and here I am, in the heat of sum- 
mer, asking for books that ought to have been produced amid 
the snows of winter. Now, I am not here to say to the com- 2638 
CHARlfABLb! INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apt. 
mittee what tlieii’ duty may be upon this subject. They can do 
what they please. 
Mr. Mellen. Do I understand the chairman to object? 
The Chairman. No ; not at all. The committee hear the 
motion of Mr. Mellen. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman; I have heard a great many 
times, have seen a great many times, this parade about the de- 
mand for books. But I notice that always, whenever a demand 
has been made for books, it has been made n such language 
that nobody could tell what they wanted. And the}* had to call 
four or five times before they made their wishes known — I will 
admit that. Now, Mr. Hall was examined here as a witness ; 
and Mr. Hall, it seems, had kept a private diary of his own, 
in which he had recorded certain names, of certain persons, who 
he said he had handled after they were dead, and whose bodies 
had been sent to some college for dissection. J asked His Ex- 
cellency here, in the presence of the committee, if he intended 
that that private record of Mr. Hall’s should be put in evidence, 
and he dodged the question. 
Gov. Butler. I did what? 
Mr. Brown. I said : If you are going to put it in evidence, 
I want you put it in evidence now, while Mr. Hall is upon the 
witness-stand. To which the reply was: 1 will keep this book 
and consult with the friends of those dead people. 
Gov Butler. Yes, sir; and 1 have. 
Mr. Brown. Now, every book of this institution that I have 
known anything about, just so fast as I have had any knowl- 
edge about it, I have produced it here ; and I don’t recollect a 
single instance in which the rule has been violated, except, per- 
haps, on a call for this register of visitors ; if that is to be called a 
book belonging to the institution ; and that is here this morning. 
Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., His Excellency assumes, kept a record 
of all the names of these people. Now. wrhen Thomas J. 
Marsh, Jr., is called upon for this record, I propose to have 
something to say as to whether he shall produce it. Thomas J. 
Marsh, Jr., stands here as a man slandered by His Excellency 
every moment of this hearing, from the opening of this hearing 
until the present time. 
Mr. Mellen. I beg to interrupt the gentleman right here. 
I insist that the gentleman is not speaking to the question. The 
question is not about the character of Thomas J. Marsh Jr., 
and we are not here to listen to eulogies of Thomas J. Marsh 2639 
1888.] 
HOUSE— Ho. 800. 
Jr. The question now, is upon securing a book which belongs 
to this committee. It is a book kept by an officer of this insti- 
tution. We should not listen to speeches about what is irrele- 
vant to the question, and I object to the counsel going on, 
whether it is to abuse His Excellency, or whether it is in defence 
of one of his clients. I insist, Mr. Chairman, that if the gen- 
tleman wishes to talk to the question which is pending, well and 
good ; let him confine himself to it and not wander from it. 
And I am of the opinion, that as counsel for these gentlemen, 
he is subject to censure. I recollect three discussions we have 
had about books and the difficulties we have had in getting them. 
As I understand it he would intimate that there has been no 
trouble before. The committee must bear me out when I say 
that there has been trouble upon several occasions in the matter 
of securing the books. Now, it is our business, whether the 
governor wishes the book or not, to have every book connected 
with the institution, that has been kept bjr an officer of the in- 
stitution ; and we should have nobody stand in our way by long 
speeches or long eulogies of his clients ; and I object to the 
gentleman’s proceeding one word further unless he talks to the 
question pending, which is, shall we have these books or not? 
[Applause.] 
The Chairman. Mr. doorkeeper — doorkeeper, keep watch 
for any more applause and put out any party, unless the com- 
mittee order otherwise, that you see disturbing this hearing. 
Mr. Mellen, member of the committee, objects to Mr. 
Brown’s going on. * 
Mr. Mellen. Unless he talks directly to the question ; that, 
of course, I won’t object to. But, as you w ill observe, he was 
wandering from it entirely. 
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. I said slandered, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, 
because I believe that not a single word of imputation as to his 
private character is uttered with any foundation whatever. 
Mr. Mellen. I still insist that the gentleman is not talking 
to the question. Now, if he will tell us why we should not have 
that book, well, and good. 
Gov. Butler. The board of state charities believed differ- 
ently ; that is all I have to say. 
Mr. Mellen. This discussion between counsel I don’t think 
is wise. 
Mr. Brown. The board of state charities lived to see that 2640 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
answered and they never dared to make the declaration again ; 
and they have not, lo these seven years, ever repeated it. Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr., stands here to-day as a man maimed for life in 
attempting to perform his duty in this institution. 
Mr. Mellen. I insist that this gentleman shall not go on 
unless the committee will go on record that they want to be en- 
tertained with a stump speech; if they do, well and good. 
But I protest that he has not given a single reason why we should 
not have these books. 
The Chairman. I suppose that because a motion has been 
made — 
Mr. Brown. I notice the gentlemen of the committee who 
do not attend here much, are in no danger of ever getting 
maimed for life in the discharge of their duties. 
Mr. Mellen. I will take all the flings at me, by and by. 
Mr. Brown. I say that Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., under my 
advice, will never produce those books, if he has an}’. 
Gov. Butler. Now we have come to an issue. 
Mr. Brown. And if there is any power in this committee, 
or in this legislature — and I put it to you, gentlemen, simply on 
the ground of public policy and right whether you believe it is in 
accordance with your duty to use it. If the man has a record 
he has not yet been asked for it. It is not a public record, it is 
a private record. He has not yet been asked for it, and conse- 
quently this whole discussion is untimely. If he had been 
asked for it, and if gentlemen of this committee want to antici- 
pate the question before it is reasonably and fairly before them, 
they can do it now. I say that when Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., is 
asked for that book, if he wants to produce it he can; but he 
will produce it without any knowledge or advice upon my part 
as to what I think he ought to do ; he will do it upon his own 
judgment and upon his own discretion. But I say to you, 
gentlemen, that I don’t believe that eleven gentlemen sitting 
here are going to ask an officer to produce a record which His 
Excellency has said, in regard to part of it, that he purposes to 
use it for consultation with the friends, as he says, to what 
end we don’t know. The Commonwealth’s dead, men whose 
bodies, by the law of this Commonwealth for upwards of fifty 
years, have been devoted to a purpose which is honorable, to a 
purpose which has contributed to that intelligence in medical 
science in this community to which you and I and all of us owe 
perhaps our lives and our health. Now, what is the reason ; 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2641 
what good ? Does anybody’ say that any good is to come of 
this? Simply, 1 am going to have that book. That is it. -His 
Excellency has made up his mind he is going to have that book, 
and that is all there is of it; not a syllable as to any other pub- 
lic good that is to be accomplished — not a syllable. Not a 
syllable can be mentioned. What of it ? Does it make an}T 
difference who these persons were? This discussion, this inves- 
tigation has not revealed one scintilla of evidence that any man 
has been sent to that institution unlawfully. Not a syllable that 
any man who requested to be buried was afterwards sent to a 
medical college — not one. Not a syllable that any man ever 
called for a body at this institution that the friends didn’t get. 
In one or two instances it is true that a mistake had been made 
and that those who were supposed to be without friends who 
went for them, and in that instance the body was returned ; not 
a syllable, for aught that appears by this testimonj7 from the 
beginning to the end of this investigation. It has been con- 
ducted honorabl}', it has been conducted honestly ; and the onlv 
pretext that I have heard given for a word said against it was 
that it was not conducted in broad daylight, so that every man 
in the institution could be made miserable, by knowing what was 
going on. That is all I have heard, and I have listened very 
attentively. Now I say to the gentlemen of this committee 
that the time has not come. This officer has not this book, if it 
exists. It is not in my control and it is not in his control, if it 
exists ; and the time to decide this question is when the party 
who has the book, who His Excellency alleges has the book, is 
called as a witness, if he is called at all. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Chairman, I think we can get along 
without any particular heat on this question. Let us see where 
we are, exactly. It was said at the beginning of this investiga- 
tion that it w'as — a portion of it was to look into the truth of 
some remark, or the correctness of some remarks made by the 
governor of the Commonwealth in his inaugural that certain 
things were being done with the dead of this institution which 
were not according to the wish of the inhabitants of this Com- 
monwealth. And I called the attention of the inhabitants of 
the Commonwealth to it for the purpose of having some legisla- 
tion upon the subject which the legislature has not yet enacted, 
undoubtedly because it has been waiting for this investigation 
to get through. All of us agree that the statute under which 
this thing has been done is very loosely drawn, and leaves 2642 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the administration of it, if in the hands of bad men, liable to 
great abuse. It early appeared that there had been a large 
number of the dead sent away, some before and some after they 
were buried. It appeared by testimony that they were taken 
and transported by a man, and afterwards by a woman, who 
carried on the business. In pursuance of what I thought was 
due the committee, and supposing that I should get a fair and 
honest account of the transaction from her and save all trouble 
of long investigation, I sent for her and put her upon the stand 
and asked her about it. You remember that she swore that she was 
engaged in the transportation business, but she didn’t know what 
was transported ; she never saw any. She knew “ little ones” were 
transported, because she had a little quarrel about what should 
be paid for “little ones,” but what those “ little ones” were she 
never told us upon her oath. I then found Mr. Hall, who was 
very severely attacked after he was examined and testified that 
he had kept an account of these bodies and made a return when 
he left off. And I took the book, saying I would not put it in 
then ; that I would consult with some of the friends of the de- 
ceased, of the dead named in that book ; and upon such light 
as I had I would shape my course. And I have had no oppor- 
tunity to put it in since. I think it will appear, very likely — I 
don’t know, but I think it will appear whenever my turn comes 
to rebut some evidence that has been brought here. Now, then, 
I have only called attention to this to show that this has been a 
subject brought forward from the beginning. A request in 
writing, if I remember right —I may be mistaken — was made 
for all the books, that I might examine them, either myself or 
by those that I might employ. I was assured they were all 
here. I commenced examination and I found that some must 
be missing. 1 again made a call, and again a large quantity; 
more were sent down. I examined ; and then, upon the cross- 
examination of Charles Marsh I ascertained there were more 
books, and I sent for those — the committee sent for those. 
And then we had the solemn assurance at that time — because 
I was earnest about it then. And it was said that I called so 
that my call could not be understood. I can only say that my 
call was for ever}’ book and memorandum, large or small — as 
broad as language could make it—should be brought and put into 
the hands of the committee. When they are in the hands of 
the committee, then the committee, upon examination, can de- 
termine the question of public policy, whether they shall be 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2643 
allowed to be inspected by me first; and then whether I shall 
be allowed to put them in turn into the hands of the busy 
reporter to go broadcast over the Commonwealth. Upon that 
question I don’t think there will be any difficulty between me 
and the reporter — between me and the committee at all. I 
have shown from the beginning, since that book was called for 
which Mr. Hall produced here, a due regard for the decencies 
of life, I trust. But the question now is a broad and open one. 
The difference is that they will judge of the time when books 
shall be produced here. They cannot judge of the time by any 
rule of law whatever. They must produce the book and put it 
in the hands of the court, and then the court will judge upon 
the question, whether it shall or shall not be produced as a 
matter of public policy. Now, then, we have the counsel, 
learned counsel before us ; and he has, with considerable vehe- 
mence and great positiveness declared that so far as he can, that 
so far as in him lies, he nor his client shall not obey the order 
of the committee about these books. 
Mr. Brown. No such language has been made by me. 
Gov. Butler. You heard what was said ; we won’t have anjr 
discussion about that at all. You heard it; and I said: then 
the issue is made up. And it becomes, then, a very grave issue 
whether the legislature, the grand inquest of this Common- 
wealth, a committee of the legislature, will sit here and be told 
that whatever orders they make, this almshouse and these offi- 
cers will disobey them. And the counsel says he will abet them 
in doing it; and yet he asks you to hear him use hard wrords 
against everybody that he don’t like much ; that is all. Now, I 
think that this thing had better be brought to a close one way 
or the otlmr. If he is to be permitted to do this, then there is 
an end of this hearing, so far as I am concerned; because I 
won’t sit here and have withdrawn from me the instruments of 
evidence — the books of the institution. Whether they are 
larger or smaller is not of any consequence. They are the 
record. They are the record from which he has pressed in a 
report against my objection to you. Now, I want that original 
record to show that this pressed report is true. He has pressed 
in by the witness on the stand here the evidence, against my 
objection, that Thomas .T. Marsh, Jr., made a certain report. I 
asked him if there was books produced. He said there were. 
Now, who is Thomas J. Marsh, Jr.? He was assistant superin- 
tendent of this almshouse. Upon the testimony of Mr. Nourse, 2644 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
although nothing of that kind appears of record, ten years ago 
he was appointed agent of the trustees to do a certain very im- 
portant duty ; that is, the duty of keeping a record of the dis- 
position of the dead. I say important, because our laws have 
guarded that more strictly than any other thing in this State. 
No man can dispose of a dead body by law without having, not 
only a private memorandum record in his pocket, but without 
having a public record, open to all men. And it is a very high 
crime to do it otherwise. Now that shows the wisdom of the 
Commonwealth and the people of the Commonwealth in regard 
to the sacredness of their dead, in which they only follow the 
most savage tribes ; because there is no tribe found so savage, 
outside of Tewksbury, that has ever failed to show respect to 
the dead, in the history of the world. Now, then, I ask for 
the production of this book. You are at once told that I am 
going to make an improper use of it. What is the evidence? 
The evidence is that I would not make use, at the time, of a 
book when I had it, a part of this record. Now, Dr. Dixwell, 
— who, of course, never has been slandered here ; he has only 
been called a lunatic and a liar and a few slight love-pats of 
that description — has made certain testimony here, that in 
certain years he found, down in a certain institution, a great 
many infants; and I propose to show that his testimony 
is true, and I propose to show it bj’ these books. We 
were told that he must be a liar because there were quite a 
number of doctors who came here and swore that they never 
saw an infant down there, and there never was any use for one 
except in one case, very lately, when a doctor who had come 
from Paris with little peculiar notions undertook to show the 
foetal circulation from an infant; and that they never were 
wanted, never were seen ; nobody ever thought of dissecting 
an infant; they hadn’t any muscle, they were not developed. 
We were treated to that over a week. Well, now, according to 
their report, in ten years thirty-six children have been sent 
down there. The report leaves it a little indefinite. If we can 
get that book and compare it with the register we shall find 
about what the age of those children was, and perhaps — I 
think 1 shall be able to sustain Dr. Dixwell in part. And I 
shall have certain other evidence to sustain him and to show 
that these doctors,— well, we won’t use any hard words — for- 
get easily— that they brought here. Now, that is the use 1 
propose to make of the books. 1 propose to you that; and to 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2645 
show the fact that only 564 bodies — if I get the number 
right— 585 in ten years only have been sent to all the colleges. 
Now, I don’t believe that, because every man who had to do 
with these colleges has sworn that there was a great call for 
this “material,” as it is called in the reports. Mr. Marsh has 
not made any report as to bodies ; he has only made a report as 
to material used for anatomical science. Now, I want to find 
out whether they were bodies. That, you see, would be in ten 
years only about fifty a year to all these colleges ; to the four or 
five colleges they were sent to. Well, we have got testimony 
from Harvard that there were more than that sent a year in 
some years from Harvard alone — from Tewksbury —upon the 
testimony of Dr. Porter, which I don’t rely upon half so much 
as I shall upon some other testimony by and by. That is what 
I want of these books. Isn’t that a proper object? It is to 
correct one set of witnesses and to sustain and correct another 
set of witnesses by the daily record of a public transaction 
made by a public officer. And when I ask for these books, and 
have been asking for them for years — for months — the counsel 
for the officer, knowing, as he ought to know, with proper study 
of his case, that he had the book ; when from his own witness 
he could have known it, and did know it before I did, I have no 
doubt, — when I ask for them, is the committee to be told that 
they will not — that whether they order them or not their order 
shall not be obeyed. Napoleon said France would not nego- 
tiate under a threat. If I were a committee I would never 
allow myself to be threatened as to what would be done 
if I made an order, to influence me not to make it. That 
won’t do. That is not the way to get along in this 
world. That is the first question to be settled. Will the 
committee sit here and hear further from counsel or client 
who stands in contempt of the committee by threatening to 
disobey their order if they make it? How long, sir, in any 
court of justice would counsel be allowed to practice or stand 
in court who got up and thrashed his hand on the table and told 
the court: Whatever order you make I won’t obey it, and my 
client shall not, if he takes my advice? If there is any court 
that will stand that from counsel I never will appoint that man 
justice of the peace ; never, never ! because he should not be 
browbeaten in that way. That is the first question for you to 
settle. Because I cannot ask you, — and the learned gentle- 
man of the committee who makes the motion did not include it, 2646 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
— to pass an order which is going to be disobeyed. Further, I 
will tell yon what this book is wanted for. I want to examine 
Mr. Nourse upon it, and ascertain what he did about it. His 
agent was reporting to him. He is on trial, under investigation 
here, whether he took care of the dead as well as he did of the 
living, or what; whether he looked into it to see whether that was 
true or not; whether he compared the report with the book ; 
whether he saw — a thousand questions which I might ask, and 
twenty of which perhaps l should. I am told I cannot have it 
now. Why? Because the counsel says he won’t obey the order 
of the committee. Why shouldn’t I have it now? I will tell 
you what is wanted, as 1 understand it. It is that Thomas J. 
Marsh, Jr., shall keep the books in his pocket until I come to 
his cross-examination, and then I cannot have examined them 
in connection with the other records, and I cannot cross-exam- 
ine him intelligently. That is what is wanted, and that is why 
this bold, defiant declaration is made to the committee. He 
says he can produce them when he is on the stand. I simply 
want them now for the purposes indicated — legitimate and 
proper purposes, every man of you will agree with me ; and it is 
a right to which 1 am entitled. And all the rough talk, that I 
want it because I said I would have it—I have not said I 
would have it; I have only asked for it. Have I said anywhere, 
gentlemen, that I would have it? No. I haven’t even said I 
I would have it if I could get it from him. I have only asked, 
and I did it in the mild way that when I said to you, after it 
appeared that your order hadn’t been obeyed, 1 said you were 
to vindicate your own honor, and I thought your honor re- 
quired that your order should be obeyed. Did I go any 
further than that? Now, 1 am dealing with legislators; 
with men that their constituents have vested with power — 
and rightly — to represent them in the interests of the Com- 
monwealth. I am addressing those legislators sitting in a 
judicial capacity in a matter of high concern; and all I 
ask is that propriety of action and that following of the 
ordinary uses of courts of justice in the production of evidence 
which has never in any case been controverted, so far as I 
know. The committee will pass such order as they think, 
according to the requirements of justice, should be had. And 
when the books are produced I suppose they will be submitted 
to me ; and if they are I certainly shall consult with the com- 
mittee before I bring out the names of any persons upon them, 1883.] 
HOtJSE — No. 300. 
2647 
and if I find occasion to bring out the name of any person I 
will show cause why I should bring it out before I do. 
Mr. Risteen. It seems to me there can be no question, no 
difference of opinion in the minds of the committee. Their 
self-respect demands that the books should be produced, and I 
hope the books will be produced. 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me that one matter should be set- 
tled ; certainly I wish to have it settled in m3' own mind — 
whether or not this book is considered to be the private'prop- 
erty of Mr. Marsh. If so it seems to me it would be proper to 
have the book called for when he is on the witness-stand. But 
I assume from the fact of his being called upon b}r his superior 
officer to make a report to that board and having done it b3T 
that book — that would indicate to m\r mind that the book is 
public rather than private property. If that is so it seems to 
me that now is the time to have the books brought forth. 
The Chairman. An\' other member of the committee an}r- 
thing to sa}\ 
Mr. Risteen. I call for the question, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Learnard. I understand the book is to be placed in the 
hands of the committee for the committee. 
The Chairman. That the}' are to be produced for the com- 
mittee. 
Mr. Brown. Perhaps I can relieve the committee from some 
embarrassment. If this witness has the book I am perfectly 
willing he should produce it. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, dear ! 
The Chairman. State }Tour motion again, Mr. Mellen. 
Mr. MeLLEN. I move that the managers of this institution, 
or Thomas J. Marsh, or all conjointl}', be ordered to produce the 
book alluded to, in which Thomas J. Marsh kept the record of 
the dead — the books which have been under discussion. 
Mr. Brown. That being an entirel}' different motion — 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, I object to counsel acting as 
a member of the committee. 
The Chairman. I don’t understand that there is no evidence 
yet that there is an}T book. Hall produced a memorandum 
book here which was not put into the case. He produced it to 
refresh his memor}7 with. There is no evidence here to m}r 
mind that there is any book such as the committee want. If 
there is any memorandum or paper which the committee desires, 2648 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
I think the demand should be made specific. I will put the mo- 
tion as you made it. 
Mr. Mellen. It seems to me that the chairman ought to see 
as clearly as I do, that there is a book, a very important book, 
in the possession of somebod}'that is or was an officer of Tewks- 
bury. 
The Chairman. You can state 3’our own views. I decline to 
allow you to state mine. 
Mr. Mellen. Exactly. I am trying to make myself clear. 
It seems to me it ought to be seen by the chairman. 
The Chairman. It has seemed to me all the way that the 
principal witness in this case was Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. When 
His Excellency stopped putting in evidence, I said, as one mem- 
ber of the committee, that Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., ought to be 
produced and examined in chief. But upon promise of the 
counsel defending him, that he was to be here, I didn’t insist 
upon his being called. If he has any public book, 1 think he 
should produce it; if he has nothing more than Hall had,—a 
memorandum to refresh his memory with, — I doubt the power 
of the committee to compel him to produce it. I am ready to 
put the motion. 
Mr. Mellen. We will talk about that afterwards. I believe 
that if there is any memorandum or book kept by an\T officer of 
that institution, that book or memorandum should have been in 
the possession of this committee upon the very first order passed 
b}r this committee, or, at least, upon the second order ; we ought 
not to be obliged to call upon them with a fourth order. There 
can be no doubt that there is some book that the counsel and 
his friends don’t wish to have this committee look at; that 
ought to be apparent to the chairman. Now, I insist upon the 
adoption of this order, or upon the members of the committee 
who are opposed to it going upon record as opposed to its 
being brought here. I don’t think any member of the committee 
is willing to go into that. 
The Chairman. I don’t think there is any member of the 
committee who desires it. 
Mr. Brown. I was going to remark that the motion as now 
put is entirety different from the motion previously made ; and 
feeling it to be a different question, it raises in my mind an en- 
tirety different question, to which I would like to say a word. 
Mr. Mellen. I don’t think it is the same. All I wish to get 1883.] 
HOUSE—|No. 300. 
2649 
at is the book that the gentleman is objecting to have come be- 
fore the committee. That is all I want. 
Mr. Putney. I would like to know whether the gentleman 
proposes to withdraw the former motion that he made. 
Mr. Mellen. Not at all. 
Mr. Putney. Then I think the first question should be upon 
that. 
Mr. Mellen. I wanted to make it broad enough for those 
gentlemen who are disposed to dodge and to hide under techni- 
calities. 
Mr. Putney. Before that question is put, I would like to 
have the best part of Mr. Nourse’s evidence read. 
Mr. Learnard. I would like to know if the remark of the 
gentleman [Mr. Mellen] is intended to apply to the committee. 
Mr. Mellen. It is my purpose to press these gentlemen to 
bring in their books; that is, anything that relates to this insti- 
tution. I think the}’ have been very impudent, and I think 
they deserve the censure of the committee. 
The Chairman. You understand the motion. I suggest that 
they deny there is any such book. 
Gov. Butler. Who denies it? 
Mr. Mellen. I don’t so understand it, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. It has been said — 
Mr. Brown. I have repeatedly denied that there is any such 
book. 
Gov. Butler. I think I can state the testimony in regard to 
that. The witness testified that Mr. Marsh produced a report 
and the books from which the report wras made. That was a 
report of a public officer, and he made the report from the books 
kept by a public officer. 
Mr. Brown. That is inference, — that the book belongs to 
this institution. This witness has not passed any judgment 
upoq that, and I have denied that it does belong to the institu- 
tion or is any part of the records of this institution. Now, if I 
may be allowed to say a word. 
Mr. Mellen. I object to his discussing this matter further. 
The only question at issue is whether a book kept by Thomas 
J. Marsh, a record of the bodies sent away, is the property of 
this committee or not. There was such a record kept. 
The Chairman. Mr. Putney asks Mr. Burpee to read the 
testimony. 2650 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
[The stenographer read from the last part of Mr. bourse’s 
testiinoii}’.] 
The Chairman. I will put the question to the committee, if 
they are ready: That Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., be required to 
place in the hands of the committee all the books, papers and 
memoranda showing the delivery of dead bodies from the State 
almshouse at Tewksbury to any person or corporation whatever. 
Is that broad enough, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. Disposition, I should say, and delivery. 
The Chairman. Delivery and disposition of dead bodies. 
Mr. Brown. I desire to call the attention of the committee 
that this is entirely different from any motion that has yet been 
put. 
The Chairman. I think it is ; but I thought I would make it 
comprehensive enough to ask for anything. I will put the 
motion as Mr. Mellen prefers it. Mine is a little more compre- 
hensive. 
Mr. Mellen. It is the same in substance. 
Gov. Butler. It is only the same thing. What we desire is 
this memorandum book that once was submitted for the inspec- 
tion of the trustees, of that State institution. 
The Chairman. I will add that: meaning the books exhibited 
to the trustees. 
Mr. Brown. Now upon that new motion I claim the light to 
be heard. 
Gov. Butler. There is no new motion ; it is simply framing 
the question. 
Mr. Brown. I think it raises a serious constitutional ques- 
tion, and to pass an order in that form is contrary to precedent 
which Ilis Excellency established in a congressional hearing at 
Washington. 
Gov. Butler. The difficulty is that Mr. Brown has a copy 
of the Congressional Record, and he wants to read from it. I 
established no such precedent. He tried to read it once before, 
you remember. If it were not for taking so much time 1 would 
like to have it go on record now. But now is not the proper 
time. I shall have an opportunity some day. 
The Chairman. It is moved that the question be taken 
without hearing Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Learnard. I think if Mr. Brown desires to address 
the committee he ought to have some opportunity. The gov- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2651 
ernor has made some remarks, and I think Mr. Brown should 
have an opportunity to reply. 
The Chairman. We are struggling with a difficult question— 
Mr. Brown. I won’t say anything. 
The Chairman. It seems to me there is not evidence enough 
here. I doubt if we can compel a man not on the witness-stand 
to produce such a book. Our order, 1 take it, we want to have 
obeyed ; so it is well to consider what the order is. Those in 
favor of the motion, as stated by the chair, will raise their hands 
— seven ; those opposed, by the same sign ; it is a vote. Mr. 
Marsh, you will take notice of the order passed by the commit- 
tee. Now, it is twenty minutes of one, will you go on until it 
is one. Governor? 
Gov. Butler. No, 1 want the books before I go on. I want 
to examine the boojts when they are produced. I want to call 
the attention of the committee to the condition of things. To- 
morrow, if I go up to Williams College at all, where I am asked 
to go, a part of the journey is in view of an official visit to 
the Moosae Tunnel—• 
Mr. Mkllen. Governor, we don’t hear what you say. 
Gov. Butler I was saying that I desired to-morrow to go 
up to Williams College, so as to be there on Wednesday morning ; 
otherwise, I shall have to ride until quite late into the night. 
And then, the council have voted to make an examination of 
the TIoosac Tunnel and the road where the double track is goiry 
down under our direction, on the day after the Fourth, and I shal l 
not be able to get back here until Saturday. 
The Chairman. You mean you will be here to-morrow and 
then be here Saturday. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t see how I can be unless I start at 
four o’clock and ride far into the night. 
The Chairman. A train leaves at three o’clock, Governor,— 
a swift train. 
Gov. Butler. I was informed that I would not get up there 
until quite late. The officers of the road told me I had better 
take the morning train. However, I will be here if the com- 
mittee desire it; and perhaps I had better be. I will sacrifice 
every convenience and comfort of my own if the committee 
desire ; so that they may vote upon it without any reference to 
my convenience, but I don’t see how I can be here until Mon- 
day next, afterward. 
Mr. Wolcott. I should like to ask His Excellency whether 2652 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
it would be possible for him to substitute some counsel for this 
week, as was done once before. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no, sir; when I was putting in my own 
testimony I could instruct counsel, but when I am on cross- 
examination I cannot. 
Mr. Wolcott. Then I move to adjourn until Monday 
morning. 
Mr. Brown. I have a witness here who is attending at con- 
siderable inconvenience, and I want to ask him one question. 
Gov. Butler. Call him now, sir. 
Testimony of Edward S. Wood {sworn). 
Q. Professor Wood, you are a chemist, are you? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Your name is Edward S. Wood? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you, as a chemist, made examination of inks? A. 
I have, sir. 
Q. Have you examined this receipt [produced] of Thomas 
J. Hall, dated April 13, 1877, for forty-six dollars? A. I 
haAre. 
Q. Ts it written in one ink? A. In one kind of ink. 
Mr. Brown. That is all I care to ask. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
» The Chairman. Now, as to meeting to-morrow. 
Mr. Learnard. I move to adjourn to meet at half-past nine 
to-morrow morning. 
Mr. Risteen. I second Mr. Wolcott’s motion, that we ad- 
journ now until half-past nine next Monday morning. 
The Chairman. Did you make that motion, Mr. Wolcott? 
Mr. Wolcott. Yes, sir; I made that motion. I understood 
the governor to say he could not he here — 
Gov. Butler. I cannot be here until the afternoon of Satur- 
day—my secretary informs me that the arrangements have been 
so altered that I can get back on Friday afternoon. 
The Chairman. To-morrow? 
Gov. Butler. Not to-morrow. 
The Chairman. Half-past nine Saturday morning. 
Gov. Butler. And I wish, then, the gentlemen of the com- 
mittee, or a quorum of them, made up in the proportion in 
which the committee is made up, would be here to sit all day. 
Direct examination by Mr. Broivn. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2653 
The Chairman. I wish the eleven could be here every day. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Nourse informs me that he cannot be here 
on Saturday. 
Gov. Butler. Then take somebody else. 
Mr. Brown. I only thought 1 would call attention to it. 
Gov. Butler. You will agree with me that whatever else 
may occur, when any indulgence has been asked I have con- 
sented. 
The Chairman. Shall we adjourn until Saturday? 
Mr. Learnard. Can’t we sit to-morrow ? 
Gov. Butler. No, it is not impossible, because I can make 
it up by riding through the night. 
The Chairman. You get to Williamstown at 10 o’clock, 
leaving here at 3, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I can only say to that, that arrangements 
have been made for the gentlemen going with me to go in the 
morning. 
The Chairman. Then we will adjourn until Saturday. Now, 
before we adjourn, I have received a package from Exeter which 
I suppose contains depositions. If there is no objection I will 
mark it received as of to-day. 
Gov. Butler. I have no objection. 
The Chairman. I will mark it opened and filed so it may be 
open to either party. 
[Adjourned.] 2654 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
FIFTY-FIFTH HEARING. 
Saturday, July 7. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Torino of Worcester in the chair. 
The Chairman. I suppose the parties have noticed an order 
passed by the legislature that this hearing be closed on next 
Friday, the report to follow on the Tuesday after. Now, if the 
time can be farmed out equitably and amicably we shall be glad 
of it. 
Gov. Butler, flow long does the committee propose to sit 
during the day? 
The Chairman. 1 am willing to sit all day eacli day. I 
don’t know what the committee are willing to do, — have two 
sessions a day for the six days. * How does that strike you, Mr. 
Murphy ? 
Mr. Murpiiy. 1 have no objection to whatever the committee 
agree to. 
The Chairman. Mr. Fuller? 
Mr. Fuller. I should prefer to sit once a da}’. 
The Chairman. Mr. Chester? 
Mr. Chester. I don’t want to sit at all. 
Gov. Butler. Have you a copy of the order, Mr. Chair- 
man ? 
The Chairman. I have not a copy of it; it is simply an order 
to that effect; and we are to hold at least one session each day. 
What do you say, Mr. Learnard ? 
Mr. Learnard. Two or three sessions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Chamberlain? 
Mr. Chamberlain. I will try to put it in. 
The Chairman. Mr. Gilmore? 
Mr. Gilmore. I will sit as often and as long as anybody. 
The Chairman. It is understood we will hold two sessions a 
day. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2655 
Gov. Butler. Well, I will do what I can. What can’t be 
done, of course, is not to be done. 
The Chairman. Mr. Brown, do you think you can close to- 
day and Monday ? 
Mr. Brown. All the testimony that I have to put in on 
direct examination cannot certainly take more than two hours. 
I want to call Mr. Charles Marsh in regard to his inmates’ cash 
account. Then 1 have two or three other witnesses in regard 
to little matters. 
Gov. Butler. Then you will be through to-day? 
Mr. Brown. I say the time occupied by direct examination 
will not be more than that. Of course I cannot finish until you 
have finished the cross-examination of Mr. Nourse. There may 
be other witnesses that you may desire to cross-examine at 
some length, so that I might not be able to get at the direct 
examination of another. I should like, Mr. Chairman,— I 
don’t know what the view of the committee is, but it would 
make a great difference to me if I knew whether the committee 
expected this matter to be argued. If the committee don’t ex- 
pect this matter to be argued, why — 
The Chairman. I supposed, with this limitation, perhaps we 
should get along without argument. Nothing has been said 
about it. The parties can dispose of the time as they choose. 
Gov. Butler. Then this order was framed so as to cut off 
the argument, was it? 
The Chairman. No, Governor. The hearing is to close on 
Friday. 
Gov. Butler. The argument of Paley was, when y'ou find a 
watch cunningly contrived, you always infer the maker. I only 
reverse it, and finding the maker, I infer the watch. 
The Chairman. We are to report Tuesday, after the hear- 
ing closes on Friday7. I should think the whole thing should be 
closed Friday' night. 
Gov. Butler. I desire to present my views about this case. 
If the legislature or the committee chooses to take such action 
that I cannot, I cannot help it. I shall be heard somewhere, 
undoubtedly7. [Applause.] The committee will see at once 
the injustice that will be done the investigation to proceed with- 
out appropriate argument upon the evidence before them, after 
this mass of evidence, which I suppose they have digested and 
carried along in their minds thoroughly7, — that then there 
should be a report in the nature of an argument, and then no 2656 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
opportunity to reply to that by putting in the views of the other 
side ; it would be an injustice against which I should respect- 
fully and firmly protest, that is all; T don’t care to say anything 
more. 
The Chairman. As to the report being an argument, I sup- 
pose the report is to be founded on the evidence. 1 take it a 
report not founded on the evidence would be ridiculous. 
Gov. Butler. You will find out what the evidence is ; the 
public would not. But, however,—-the more partisan pressure 
the better. 
The Chairman. I don’t think that remark of the governor’s 
is called for. 
Mr. Brown. So far as I am concerned I should be very 
happy to argue this matter to this committee ; and for that pur- 
pose T will agree that they may call on me any day or night, or 
on Sunday, as far as that is concerned, for that purpose. If 
I am not arguing I may be yachting. 
Mr. Murphy. I don’t see any reason why there should not 
be argument. My idea is to divide the time in the presentation 
of evidence in. such a manner as to allow time for argument; 
that is, if the representatives on both sides agree to it, and de- 
cide how long they want for an argument. 
Mr. Gilmore. I should suppose the counsel on both sides 
could arrange it so as to use part of the time in argument. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we will meet it when it comes. “ Suffi- 
cient unto the da}' is the evil thereof.” 
Mr. Chamberlain. There seems to be—Mr. Brown’s evi- 
dence is very nearly in. He says he can put it in in two or 
three hours, and he would probably get through to-day. 
Mr. Brown. The gentleman must not misunderstand me. I 
say that my direct examination won’t occupy more than two 
hours. 
Mr. Chamberlain. Then with two sessions a day it seems 
as though it might be arranged so that the parties might argue 
the case if they feel disposed to do so. We can save a day and 
make a day of it. 
Gov. Butler. I have not yet received the books that were 
ordered on Monday; I don’t know where they are. 
Mr. Learnard. I believe the books were ordered for the use 
of the committee. 
The Chairman. The books were ordered for the committee, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2657 
and it is for the committee to decide whether they shall go into 
the report. Mr. Marsh, will you produce the books? 
Mr. Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen 
of the committee, I consider the memorandum my private prop- 
erty, bought and paid for by myself; I am satisfied they will be 
used to my detriment if used here. I most respectfully decline 
to produce them. 
Gov. Butler. I think the hearing will close before Friday if 
the committee stands this. I cannot, for one, Mr. Chairman 
and gentlemen, agree to the doctrine that a public oliicer, whose 
whole time is paid for by the Commonwealth in the service of 
an institution, can be appointed to do another and a very deli- 
cate service for the Commonwealth, accept that appointment 
and keep a record of it in books—whether he buys them or any- 
body else buys them ; from the description of the books the value 
might be ten cents, possibly — and then decline to exhibit the 
records of a public transaction of public business in which he is 
solemnly appointed an agent, on that ground. 
The Chairman. I suppose it is proper for the committee to 
have these books if there are any. 1 don’t see anything else 
for the committee to do but to report back to the House or Sen- 
ate for their action. 
Gov. Butler. I have examined, and so is the conduct of 
other institutions. There has been an examination made, and at 
the Bridgewater workhouse, where they have the right to make 
the same disposition of bodies, they have made it properly so 
far as I know, and no complaint has been made. Those books 
are not only kept, but are filed, and are open to the inspection of 
everybody. 
The Chairman. Books showing the delivery of bodies? 
Gov. Butler. I was so informed. 
The Chairman. I was informed at Bridgewater that they 
didn’t deliver any bodies. 
Gov. Butler. 1 was informed the other way. 
The Chairman. I asked carefully about that. I asked the 
manager there, Capt. Leonard, and he said he didn’t deliver any 
bodies. 
Gov. Butler. That is better still than I supposed. 
Mr. Gilmore. That is what he told the committee ; that he 
refused positively in all cases, and if he was called upon to do 
it he should surrender his office. 
Gov. Butler. However, whether I am correctly informed 2658 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
or not, I am so informed. All 1 can say is. if he didn’t deliver 
any, of course there are no books. But all I can say is, again, 
that upon what I deem by far the most important part of this 
investigation, and have put it forward from the beginning, the 
records of the Commonwealth’s business are kept awa3'; and 
after solemn argument, after a threat to the committee that their 
older shall not be obeyed, the committee passed a unanimous 
vote, so far as I could observe, — 1 don’t know whether it was 
declared unanimous or not, — that it should be done, now the 
officer refuses it. There is but one thing to be done under 
those circumstances ; we must invoke the power of the legisla- 
ture. Cost what it may, the power of the legislature must not 
be contemned. There is but one thing to do, then. I want the 
books to cross-examine Mr. Nourse upon, and I cannot have 
them. The committee ordered I should have them. They have 
had a week to produce them, and you are solemnly informed that 
the}r will not be produced. You can only report to the House 
for such action as the}' see fit. 
The Chairman. That is what T suggested ; that we had noth- 
ing to do but to report the facts to one branch or the other for 
their action. Now this, of course, brings in a controversy which 
cannot come up until Tuesday, as neither branch will be in ses- 
sion until Tuesday. 
Mr. Brown. I would like to sa}T a word upon this subject. 
His Excellency has taken advantage of a remark I made last 
week — 
The Chairman. I think the committee understood your re- 
mark—that he would not produce the books try your advice, but 
if he saw fit to produce them he could. 
Mr. Brown. Under the preceding order for the investiga- 
tion I am satisfied that the chairman was right, that the com- 
mittee had no right to pass any such order. Mr. Marsh had 
had no notice, was under no subpoena ; and I consider that the 
order in a strictly legal sense has no more binding force — that 
this committee has been induced by His Excellency the Gov- 
ernor, to pass an order which has no more binding force than 
the vitality of the paper and ink of which it was made. It is 
unconstitutional and void, and illegal. 
Gov. Buti.er. Neither unconstitutional nor void. 
Mr. Brown. We will try that question. 
Gov. Butler. It has been done a thousand times. You are 
authorized to send for persons and papers. With the person here 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2659 
acting as defendant in the cause, what is the use for sending for 
him ? He is here. You don’t need to send a carriage to bring a 
person who is present. 
Mr. Brown. We will argue that in another place, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Perhaps we shall, and perhaps we shall not. 
Mr. Brown. If not, I am satisfied. 
Gov. Butler. I want to get him into that other place where 
it shall be argued. Now, then, his counsel submitting a long 
argument, submitting himself to jurisdiction — because if he 
had said, I am not present; send for me ; and had taken his hat 
and gone out, why, then, I should have asked for a subpoena 
duces tecum, and had him brought back again. But he sub- 
mitted himself to jurisdiction. Unreasonable searches and 
seizures of private property are inhibited by the constitution. 
But the right of the grand inquest of the State or country to 
send for persons and papers, and to bring them before them, 
especially papers which are public records, records of public 
action, records of public business — 
Mr. Brown. Where is the law that requires this record to be 
kept ? 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. Where is the statute that requires this record 
to be kept? 
Gov. Butler. The law of decent common sense! You 
will find it on the first page. [ Applause.] 
The Chairman. It is too hot now to have much fun ; let us 
keep quiet. 
Gov. Butler. Yes; it'is a very warm day, and we had 
better all keep reasonably cool and comfortable. I am. Now, 
then, under those circumstances, I can only ask that the com- 
mittee will report the contumacy of Mr. Marsh to the House, 
and ask for such an order as the House may give. I regret 
that this should lengthen the proceedings, but here is enough to. 
justify the legislature in keeping in session some time. I should 
justify them ; and I don’t know but I should be willing to sign a 
warrant for their pay while they were about it. This is high 
public business. 
The Chairman. If you will agree to sign one, I don’t know 
but we will stay. Now, about this matter ; I have written down 
substantially what I understand Mr. Marsh to say: — “ I con- 
sider the books my memorandum, and I decline to produce them 
if they are intended to be used to my detriment.” Perhaps the 2660 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
reporter had better read what Mr. Marsh said, so there may be 
no question about it. 
[The reporter read the statement of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., 
as requested.] 
The Chairman. I don’t understand that Mr. Marsh has been 
subpoenaed. You haven’t subpoenaed him, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. I have not. 
The Chairman. You haven’t, Mr. Brown? 
Mr. Brown. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. He is here in the capacity of defendant. He 
is here as a public officer being investigated. 
The Chairman. Whether the fact that he is not now an 
officer will make an}- difference? 
Gov. Butler. Well, report all the facts. That will have to 
be passed upon. 
The Chairman. I have expressed my view once or twice, 
Governor, about the law. I don’t find any statute, and your 
Excellency don’t suggest an}- statute requiring this record. I 
don’t find any. 
Gov. Butler. Do you find any statutory law requiring them 
to keep any books at the almshouse? 
The Chairman. Yes ; I find that the secretary of State is to 
furnish them a book, in which they are to record the deaths 
and burials. 
Gov. Butler. Then they must keep books of all their busi- 
ness. They cannot keep a few, and not the rest. 
The Chairman. Births and deaths ; that is it. I will find it. 
Gov. Butler. What else ? 
The Chairman. [Reading.] 
“ The secretary shall, at the expense of the Commonwealth, pre- 
pare and furnish to the clerks of ihe several cities and towns, and to 
the superintendent of the State almshouse, blank books of suitable 
quality and size to be used as books of record under this chapter.” 
This is chapter 82. 
Gov. Butler. You will find what I found on pages 470 and 
471, under the title Tewksbury almshouse. They are required, 
I think, to keep books. 
The Chairman. [Reading.] 
“ The superintendent of the State almshouse shall obtain, record 
and make return of the facts in relation to the births and deaths 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2661 
which occur in his institution, in like manner as is required of town 
clerks. The clerk of a town in which such almshouse is located 
shall, in relation to the births and deaths in said almshouse, be ex- 
empt of the duties otherwise required of him by this chapter.” 
Then follows what I read first. 
Gov. Butler. That, in my judgment, has nothing to do 
with it. 
The Chairman. Now, what is your page ? 
Gov. Butler. These got to be merchandise after they died. 
Ask Mr. Records if he has brought up those books of the 
trustees. I think it is near the bottom of page 470 or 471, in 
regard to the duties of the superintendent. 
The Chairman. 1 don’t find anything, Governor. Now, 
this witness says that the books may be used to his own detri- 
ment. Whether that raises his constitutional privilege, I don’t 
know. Of course, if the theory of the governor is that this 
whole business is illegal, therefore he would not furnish the 
evidence — if it is broad enough to raise that question, of course 
it would be nonsense to go to the legislature. 
Gov. Butler. He has not put it upon the ground of crimi- 
nating himself. 
The Chairman. I merely suggest that. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. That is a privilege he must 
claim. When lie gets up and says he claims they will criminate 
him, then I have got all I want, and I don’t care whether they 
arc produced or not. That cannot be raised except upon that 
ground. When that ground is put forward, it will be time 
enough to consider it. When you make your report to the 
legislature, I want you to put in another thing ; that he and his 
counsel deliberately put in to this committee, the report of the 
trustees on the examination of these books. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; that is not the fact. 
The Chairman. We will put the facts in in regard to that. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency did that. 
The Chairman. We will put in whatever the fact was. 
Gov. Butler. Because he reported — he produced the 
books to his superior officers, and got a whitewashing report 
from them, and now he declines to let us see the original out of 
which that report was made so that I can test the accuracy of 
the report. That is what I want of them with Mr. Nourse. 
I have just heard of one matter which may be a matter of in- 2662 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
terest, — that the workhouse at Bridgewater is burning. I re- 
gret it very much. 
The Chairman. I was going to make one more suggestion, 
Governor. You said in regard to babies, that having found one 
at Harvard, or somewhere, you thought that would do as well as 
more. On that ground—you have traced a great many bodies, it 
is admitted, from Tewksbury to the dissecting-room. Now, 
does it make any difference that you have the exact number? 
They admit five or six hundred have been sent. The number 
certainly has been so large. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; it makes a wide difference. This is 
it. 
The Chairman. I can see a long controversy over this ques- 
tion. 
Gov. Butler. We are now investigating the management of 
this institution. The claim made against them was that they 
have sold a great many hundred bodies. 
The Chairman. Babies. 
Gov. Butler. Bodies; old and young. They say they have 
only in the interest of science, sent, all told, to four institu- 
tions, in ten years, 585, large and small. And they say there 
has never been any sold nor disposed of in any other way. 
Then comes the question that would arise upon the construction 
of the statute, whether that is a proper construction of the 
statute or not. If we could get the truth I believe there have 
been treble the number. My witness, Dr. Dixwell, has been at- 
tacked here as a lunatic because he swore they were good for 
dissection and that lie had dissected them ; and men who have 
sunk their truth in their science have come here and sworn to 
that fact. They admit that the}- have had 36 sent for purposes 
of science when none were wanted. 
The Chairman. They say, Governor, there were uses for 
them in obstetrics. 
Gov. Butler. What ? 
The Chairman. They all testify they are of use in ob- 
stetrics. 
Gov. Butler. Only one or two had been used in a long 
series of years, when a lesson was given in obstetrics. Some- 
times it was shown what the foetal circulation was, and the 
foetal circulation was, of course, shown 'only by a very young 
baby. 
The Chariman. And any abnormal condition. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2663 
Gov. Butler. Monstrosities, sir. It would strike my mind 
that if you could find what was abnormal in the human frame 
by looking at an infant you might find what was normal by 
looking at an infant. That is the wa\’ it would strike me, but I 
suppose I must be wrong. 
The Chairman. A withered arm might be important to ex- 
amine when one not withered might not be. 
Gov. Butler. Precisely so. That is what Dr. Dixwell 
thought. Now, here is a struggle as to the truth of a witness. 
Here are the books that will prove it and they are refused. I 
only rose to ask you to put in that, to show that copies of these 
books are relied upon b}T the defence, but the originals won’t be 
produced. 
Mr. Brown. Then, I want to call the attention of the com- 
mittee to another fact: that the governor’s own witness has tes- 
tified that no body ever went from Tewksbury prior to 1876. 
Gov. Butler. Who was the governor’s own witness? 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chase and Mr. Hall both. 
Gov. Butler. They were not there only during the years 
they testified to. 
The Chairman. Governor, do you wish to examine Mr. 
Nourse further? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir, I want to, but I cannot until — 
Mr. Brown. It was understood that Mr. Nourse need not 
present himself here to-day on account of another engagement; 
and I understood it was agreed that he should not be called 
until Monday. 
Gov. Butler. I agi'eed to that and was perfectly willing. 
The Chairman. Call your next witness. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Marsh, take the stand. 
[Mr. Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., was sworn and took the stand.] 
Gov. Butler. I decline to go on with the examination of 
Mr. Marsh while he stands in contempt of the order of the 
committee ; and the committee will, I think. I cannot go on 
with him until those books aye produced. 
The Chairman. That will take three days’ time. 
Gov. Butler. I cannot help that. 
The Chairman. For one I should not be in favor of adjourn- 
ing the hearing. What is the wish of the committee ? 
Mr. Murphy. I can see the difficulty in going on with this 
witness while the governor takes the stand he does. 2664 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. I cannot go on, and I am not going on ; all I 
care about him is for his books. 
The Chairman. The direct examination might go on and 
the cross-examination might be suspended. If the books were 
produced to-day, I have very grave doubts whether they would 
be surrendered. 
Gov. Butler. Well, sir, I wish you would not decide that 
until you hear why they should be. 
The Chairman. I won’t decide it, but I want to suggest 
why these three days of time should not be lost. 
Mr. Brown. I want to suggest a single matter and that is 
this : 
Gov. Butler. I am not going on with a contemptuous wit- 
ness. 
Mr. Brown. When Mr. Hall was put on, His Excellency 
distinctly stated that he intended to use that book to consult 
with the friends and relatives of those persons if lie could find 
them ; for what purpose I know not. Now, it is for that reason 
and nothing else — If there is any public use, any legitimate 
purpose which can be stated to this committee for which these 
books may be used, not inconsistent with the theory which we 
believe the statute is intended to carry out and to cover, that 
would present another question. It is entirely upon that 
ground alone, the threat of His Excellency, that ive have taken 
the position we have. 
Gov. Butler. All that was argued over, and the committee 
made a solemn order for the books. If the committee haven’t 
any more respect for themselves than to hear a man that tes- 
tifies before them — who refuses to obey their orders, I cannot 
help it; I have for myself, and I cannot go on. 
The Chairman. The committee will determine whether the 
examination in chief of Mr. Marsh shall proceed or not. 
Mr. Murfiiy. I think, under the circumstances, Mr. Chair- 
man, His Excellency having stated that it is impossible for him 
to go on, and taking into consideration the way he has acted 
and obeyed the order of the committee, there should be only 
one conclusion arrived at, and that is, not to hear him. 
The Chairman. The cross-examination by His Excellency 
cannot be reached to-da}’. 
Gov. Butler. 1 won’t say any more ; it is of no use. All 
this has been arranged. 
The Chairman. Been arranged where? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2665 
Gov. Butler. T don’t know where. 
The Chairman. I don’t think those remarks are called for, 
Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. 
Mr. Murphy. I should like to hear the question we are dis- 
cussing. 
The Chairman. The question is whether the examination in 
chief of Mr. Marsh shall he proceeded with. 
Mr. Learnard. I move that the committee adjourn until two 
o’clock to discuss this matter. 
The Chairman. We need not take as much time as that. 
Mr. Murphy. I propose to have it thoroughly discussed if it 
takes all day. 
Mr. Learnard. I wish to have it discussed as fully as the 
other gentleman does. 
Mr. Murphy. Your ideas of the matter, Mr. Chairman, are 
altogether too hast}’. 
The Chairman. I want to get through sometime. 
Mr. Murphy. I want to get through in honorable fashion. 
The Chairman. So do I, as much as you do ; and I don’t 
want any insinuation to the contrary. 
Mr. Murphy. I didn’t insinuate that you did not. 
[The committee took a recess until 11 o’clock, and went into 
executive session ; when the doors were thrown open, the public 
hearing went on as follows :] . 
The Chairman. The committee have voted to defer this 
matter of going on with Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., and to see if 
there is any testimony, deposition or anything that can.be gone 
into to-day. 
Gov. Butler. I can put on one witness. 
The Chairman. How about depositions, Governor? 
Mr. Brown. I have some depositions which I desire to read, 
taken at my request. 
The Chairman. Is Charles Marsh here, Mr. Brown ? 
Mr. Brown. I expect him here every moment. I offer the 
deposition of Sarah E. Dolloff. 
Gov. Butler. I would suggest, to save time, that we hand 
these depositions to the reporters and let them be printed. 
Mr. Brown. The only objection to that is that I don’t con- 
sider the depositions taken by His Excellency have anything to 
do with this case. 
Gov. Butler. All right. 2666 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. The order was to take such testimony as I de- 
sired to take ; and the order in regard to Ilis Excellency was 
limited to testimony in rebuttal. I don’t understand anyT part 
of it is in rebuttal, and when the testimony is offered I shall 
object to it. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, well. 
Mr. Brown. Shall I read right on, or shall I sayT interroga- 
te ly number so and so and answer. 
Gov. Butler. Read right on. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
Deposition of Sarah E. Dolloff. 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Int. 1. Your full name is Mrs. Sarah E. DollofF; and I 
believe you have lived in Exeter quite a number of years? A, 
Most of my life. 
Int. 2. It would not be fair to ask yTou your age, but I sup- 
pose you will admit you are twenty years old or more? A. 
Yes, sir ; twice twenty. 
Int. 3. You are a dressmaker, are you? A. Yes, sir. 
Int. 4. Have you ever been employed by Mrs. Atwood who 
lives on Lincoln Street? A. Yes, sir. 
Int. 5. For how many yTears have you been dressmaker in 
that family? A. I think I commenced in the spring of 
1870. 
Int. 6. Whether or not you were the only dressmaker em- 
ployed by the famity from that time down to a year ago? A. 
I think I know most everything made for Mrs. Atwood. As I 
told the gentleman who visited me, I presume she might have 
cambrics, or something like that — 
Int. 7. When you say the gentleman who visited you, do 
you mean my friend Carrigan? A. Well, he called on me, 
and also Mr. Sargent. 
Int. 8. After he got through his call he didn’t want any 
more of you, did he, madam? A. I don’t know. I was glad 
to see him, but he didn’t say he wanted anything more. 
Int. 9. Did you ever make over any' old clothes that you 
thought came from Tewksbury, or any other pauper institution, 
for the Atwoods? A. I never thought they came from 
there. 
Int. 10. Did you ever make over silk dresses? A. I 
made over one silk dress for Mrs. Atwood’s daughter. 1883. 
HOUSE - No. 300. 
2667 
Int. 11. In the thirteen years? A. In twelve years; yes, 
sir. 
Int. 12. Do you know anything about the history of that 
silk dress? A. I knew what Mrs. Atwood told me at the 
time. She decided to make it over, and I think she showed it 
to me the year before. 
Int. 13. Was it a dress she, herself, had worn? A. So 
she told me, — I think when Luther was an infant. She gave 
me the history of the dress. 
Gov. Butler. I suppose what she told her is not competent. 
Mr. Brown. I suppose not. [Reading.] 
Int. 14. What was the color of the dress? A. Brown, I 
think. 
Int. 15. We have never succeeded in tracing a brown silk dress 
to Tewksbury yet. A. This was brown originally, when I 
made it over it had been dyed. 
Int. 16. Well, it was not a modern style when you made it 
over? A. Oh, no, sir ; not when I took it. 
Int. 17. Luther was about how old then? A. It was the 
time he entered Cambridge ; probably seventeen or eighteen. 
Int. 18. So it was quite an uncommon piece ; quite an un- 
common garment? A. Oh, yes; if you could have seen the 
cut of it — 
Int. 19. Did you ever make over any silk dresses except 
that ? A. No, sir, I think not. 
Int. 20. Were you dressmaker to the Davis family also? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Int. 21. Nowq tin the ordinary course of business, during 
the twelve years, what, if any, clothing was made for the ladies 
of either of these families that were not made by you, — either 
cut or made, or both? A. I do not think there was ever any- 
thing of very much account. I know I did their principal 
dressmaking, — I don’t know as I answer your question. 
Int. 22. Now, did you ever know of any goods, with the 
exception of the silk dress, that were made over? A. Yes, 
sir; I have made over other dresses for Mrs. Atwood’s daughter ; 
I don’t think I ever made anything over for Mrs. Atwood 
except dresses she had worn. She always had her dresses 
made over, more or less, — her own wearing apparel. 
Int. 23. For her children ? A. For herself. 
Int. 24. And you have made her wearing apparel over for 
her children ? A. For her daughter. 2668 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Int. 25. lias she more than one daughter? A. Only 
one. 
Int. 26. And how as to Mrs. Davis. Have you done some 
work making over her wearing apparel for her children? A. I 
don’t think she had it made over. She had two daughters, and 
almost always, if not without exception, the girls had dresses 
alike ; not onl}’ with regard to material, but alike in style, with 
just a little difference. One would have a little wider stripe, 
just so you would see the difference ; but they would not be 
made very different. I don’t know that I remember making 
over an}- dresses for her except once, and those were dresses 
they had made before, and were of a different color. 
Int. 27. Was your work confined to dresses only? A. 
Dresses only. 
Int. 28. I suppose you went to the house, and did work 
there? A. Yes, sir. 
Int. 29. Sat at their table? A. Yes, sir. 
Int. 30. Two or'three times each day? A. Always. 
Int. 31. Did you go there for breakfast? A. No, sir. 
Int. 32. But dinner and tea? A. Dinner and tea. 
Int. 33. Now, if you ever saw an}Tthing in the shape of 
underclothing, shawls, seal-skin sacques — A. I never saw 
a seal-skin sacque there. 
Int. 34. Anything that you thought came from the alms- 
house, won’t you tell me what it was? A, 1 could not very 
well know what came, but I never saw anything more than in 
an ordinary family. 
Int. 35. You must recollect that inmates at Tewksbury wrore 
seal-skin sacques, A. I never saw one in Mrs. Davis’s or Mrs. 
Atwood’s house. I never saw a seal-skin sacque in their house 
unless some caller bad it on. 
Int. 36. Do you recollect that Etta Davis once had a sort of 
striped silk — a sort of Scotch plaid like? A. I don’t remem- 
ber. 
Int. 37. A black and white stripe or black and white check? 
A. I don’t remember. 
Int. 38. You know who Etta Davis wras? Mrs. Putney now'? 
A. I do remember. 
Mr. Brown. Now, if you know of anything else you haven’t 
told me, I want you to tell it to Mr. Carrigan, because he is in 
desperate need of information. 
The Witness. I believe I have talked with him before. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2669 
Mr. Cakkigan. I think Mrs. Doiloff and I agree. My call 
was a very delightful one I remember. 
Cr. Int. 1. Mrs. Dolloff, did you cut all the clothing they 
had made over? A. I don’t know of any they had made over 
excepting what I. did. 
Cr. Int. 2. Now, was it your duty to merely make them 
over or to cut and fit? A. Well, cut and fit, that is the first 
thing to be done. The making could not be done until it was 
cut and fitted. 
Cr. Int. 3. But some people make who do not cut and fit, I 
understand? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 4. And I was not aware whether you did the 
whole or part. A. I didn’t do the whole very often. Some- 
times if my time allowed I would stay and attend to it, but 
oftentimes it did not. 
Cr. Int. 5. How many years do I understand you worked for 
them? A. I commenced in 1870—the spring of 1870. 
Cr. Int. 6. Can you swear that you did all their work in 
that time? A. I could not swear, but I know I did all their 
good clothes. 
Cr. Int. 7. Well, my question is this: were you the only 
dressmaker employed by the Atwood and Davis families during 
the time that you claim that you worked for them? A. I think 
I was ; I don’t think they had any one else to cut for them. 
Cr. Int 8. Well, is it not true that other persons made 
dresses for them during your time? A. I think Mrs. Atwood 
had sometimes other people come to sew, and it might be possi- 
ble that they might cut some common dresses ; but anything 
which was of any account— I was always considered the family 
dressmaker, and was engaged or spoken to in the spring to do 
fall work and in the fall to do spring work, whatever they had 
done. 
Cr. Int. 9. But you cannot swear but what some other 
dressmaker did work at the same time? A. They could not 
have done very much, because I knew what they had, and I know 
I did about everything they had. Of course I could not swear 
that they did not have somebody to do some little thing. 
Cr. Int. 10. Who made their underclothing, if you know? 
A. I was not told who made their underclothing. 
Cr. Int. 11. Then you simply made silk dresses? A. I 
Cross-examination by Mr. Carrigan. 2670 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
guess I made something besides silk dresses. Mrs. Atwood had 
one silk dress. 
Cr. Tnt. 12. You did the finest part of their dressmaking? 
A. I think I did ; I was considered their dressmaker. 
Cr. Int. 13. Now, is it not true that the}’ had several dresses 
made over while you were there? A. Well, in the course of 
those years I think I told you 1 perhaps averaged to make over 
one dress a year for the daughter. Perhaps I averaged that. 
And I may have averaged more than one some years. It may 
have been more than one a year. 
Cr. Int. 14. Haven’t you stated before coming into this room 
that you have made over as high as three, some years ; from one 
to three a year? A. Well, if I did, the next year I might not 
make over any. I don’t think I did make over three. 
Cr. Int 15. Then you think you have made over as many as 
three. A. No, I don’t think I have made over three. 
Cr. Int. 16. Haven’t you so stated before coming into this 
room? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 17. Wait until I finish my question. The question 
is, haven’t you stated before coming into this room that you 
have made over as high as three dresses in one year for Miss 
Belle Atwood — I think that is her name? A. No, sir; I 
don’t think so. 
Cr. Int. 18. Will you swear you never stated you made over 
from one to three a year? A. I think I should have to say 
that I never made over three. 
Cr. Int. 19. Over three? A. I don’t think I ever made 
three over for her. 
Cr. Int. 20. Will you swear that you have not stated that? 
A. I should not suppose I would have stated it, because I have 
not done it. 
Cr. Int. 21. You know you have not done it? A. I cannot 
recollect it. 
Cr. Int. 22. Can you swear you haven’t made three dresses 
over in a year, in any year you have worked for them? A. It 
may have been. 
Cr. Int. 23. Will you swear you never made three dresses over 
for that girl, or any member of the family? A. Yes, sir; I 
think I am not afraid to swear that I never made three dresses 
over. We will put it that way. You can twist the other way of 
putting it. 
Cr. Int. 24. Then you will not swear that you made over 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2671 
three dresses a }Tear in any year? Now, then, how many times 
during the week of each year were you there? A. I would not 
be there more than, perhaps, four days in the spring, and four 
in the fall; about that. 
Cr. Int. 25. Then, about eight days a year you w'ere with 
the Atwood familj'? A. I don’t know as it would average 
that. There have been years that I have worked as much as 
that. 
Cr. Int. 26. And there may have been in that house other 
persons at work and you not know it? A. I don’t think they 
ever had very much. 
Cr. Int. 27. Do }rou work for them now? A. I have not 
worked for them very much since last fall. 
Cr. Int. 28. Now, during the last two or three years they 
have employed other dressmakers? A. I think not; not 
cutting. 
Cr. Int. 29. I am putting it down to three years now. 
During the last three years will you swear you have been the 
only dressmaker there at work for them? A. I don’t know of 
any one that has cut anything for them in three years. 
Cr. Int. 30. And yet there may have been people working 
for them that you didn’t know? A. I think I should “have 
known. 
Cr. Int. 31. Do you know Miss Olive Clark? A. I know 
her; not personally. She has worked there since I left, but 
never before. 
Cr. Int. 32. Do you know she never worked there before? 
A. She never worked there before this spring. 
Cr. Int. 33. How do you know that? A. I know Mrs. 
Atwood told me. 
Cr. Int. 34. Simply hearsay ? A. She never has. 
Cr. Int. 35. Do you know any other dressmakers in town 
that have worked for her? A. She has had none except my- 
self and Olive Clark. 
Cr. Int. 36. While you were there, she had people there 
sewing, didn’t she? A. she would have some 
one for a day ; she usually did her sewing. 
Cr. Int. 37. Now, on the question of underclothing; do 
you know who she had to make that up? A. Usually dress- 
makers are occupied dressmaking all the time, and don’t get a 
chance to bring in anything else. 2672 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cr. Int. 38. Now, you were there about seven or eight days 
during the whole 3*ear? A. About that, I should think. 
Cr. Int. 39. And did you visit back and forth frequently? 
A. Yes, sir ; we always went back and forth frequenth*. 
Cr. Int. 40. IIow Once a w*eek? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 41. Once a month? A. Yes; I should think as 
often as that. 
Cr. Int. 42. How long would you sta3*? A. According to 
circumstances. Sometimes an hour, and sometimes not more 
than half an hour. 
Cr. Int. 43. Well, then, as far as 3*011 know, you know 
nothing about their domestic relations, other than during seven 
or eight days in a year, when you were there emplo3*ed? A. 
No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 44. And 3*011 didn’t go there to breakfast? A. No, 
sir. 
Cr. Int. 45. IIow late in the evening did 3*ou sta3*? A. 
Until eight o’clock. 
Cr. Int. 46. And that is all 3*011 know about their domestic 
relations,—what 3*011 saw there? A. That is all I know 
about — the time I was there. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Broivn. 
Int. 39. I want to ask 3*011 whether 3*011 think making over 
three dresses each 3*ear is an extravagant amount of work to be 
done in a famil3T where there are two ladies — in 3'our experi- 
ence? A. They make over more in some families, and some 
do not make over at all. 
Int. 40. Well, Mrs. Atwood and Mrs. Davis alwa3*s lived, 
w*hen 3*011 were there, in a frugal and economical wa3*; isn’t that 
so? A. Alwa3*s, I think. 
Int. 41. You never saw an3’thing extravagant in their man- 
ner of living ? A. Nothing at all. Always plain. 
Int. 42. Either in the matter of table or the furniture of 
their house? A. Alwa3*s furnished just as it is now; if 3*ou 
have ever gone there, 3*011 have noticed. 
Re-cross examination by Mr. Carrigan. 
Cr. Int. 47. Whether or not, when 3*ou were first spoken to 
in relation to this testimony, 3*011 didn’t express 3*oursclf as 
having a dislike to going into the case? You didn’t want to? 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2673 
A. I didn’t want to at all; and I told the gentleman who 
called on me afterwards that I would prefer not to. 
Cr. Int. 48. And that you didn’t want to go to Boston to 
testify in this case ? A. No, I did not. My family objected to 
my going to Boston, and preferred that I should not come here. 
I thought if 1 was needed I was willing to come. 
Cr. Int. 49. But there was no such remark made by you, 
that your testimony would not serve anybody, was there? A. 
No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 50. And you did state that you didn’t want to come 
to Boston? A. I think I stated that to you. 
Cr. Int. 51. And didn’t I state that unless it was necessary 
I would not trouble you? A. Yes, sir. And 1 made the 
same remark to Mr. Sargent, that I would prefer not to come. 
And I made the same remark to him this morning. 
Cr. Int. 52. But no statement was made that your testimony' 
would not be good for anything? A. No, sir. 
Int. 43. Well, after my friend Carrigan called on 3rou he de- 
parted, and failed to sa}’ that he wanted to see 3’ou again in this 
case, didn’t he? A. I don’t think he said he wanted to see 
me. I expressed the hope that I would not be called upon. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Cr. Int. 53. Did I state that I didn’t want to see j’ou ? A. 
No, sir ; I don’t think you said anything of the kind. 
Mr. Brown. If he had he would have been very impolite. 
The Witness. I should have been very sorry to have had 
him said so, when he says lie had a pleasant call. 
(Signed) Sarah E. Doi.loff. 
Mr. Brown. I will now read the deposition of Levi GL 
Towle. [Reading.] 
Re-cross examination by Mr. Carrigan. 
Deposition of Levi Gr. Towle. 
Direct examination by Mr. BroiOn. 
Int. 1. What is your full name? A. Levi CL Towle. 
Int. 2. How long have you resided in Exeter? A. Thirty- 
two years. 
Int. 3. What has been your business during the last ten 
years? A. 1 have kept a livery stable and a public house. 2674 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Int. 4. Do you one know one Joseph W. Palmer, who for- 
merly drove hack for you in Exeter? A. Joseph S. Palmer, 1 
think his name is. 
Int. 5. Was there any other man by the name of Palmer 
who drove hack for you except the one referred to in your last 
answer? A. No, sir; I never had but one. 
Int. (5. Do you know his reputation for truth and veracity 
here in Exeter? A. Yes ; I think I do. 
Int. 7. What is it? A. I should call it veiy bad, sir. 
Int. 8. Was he discharged by you? A. He was. 
Int. 9. For what? A. Well, his accounts were not very 
straight, I didn’t consider. 
Int. 10. Have you read his testimony given in this case? 
A. I have read part of it; I don’t know but what I might 
have read it all; I have read part. 
Int. 11. What is his reputation here as an honest man? A. 
Well, I should not consider it good. 
Int. 12. Have you heard it commented upon by others? A. 
Yes, sir ; I have. 
Int. 13. Many times? A. At various times. 
Cr. Int. 1. How long did Mr. Palmer work for you, Mr. 
Towle? A. I think about five years, the last time. Ho. has 
worked for me at two different times. 
Cr. Int. 2. What was his business? A. Driving hack. 
Cr. Int. 3. Driving hack? A. Yes, sir,—to the depot 
and about town. 
Cr. Int. 4. And in that business would he collect the fare? 
A. I presume he would. 
Cr. Int. 5. And he worked for you five years, until }rou dis- 
covered — A. I think about five years. 
Cr. Int. 6. Now, what did he steal from you ? What specific 
thing did he ever steal from you ? A. Money. 
Cr. Int. 7. How much? A. I cannot tell }rou ; I wish I 
could. 
Cr. Int. 8. How do you know he stole it? A. Because I 
know my business fell off. 
Cr. Int. 9. Do you think because a man’s business falls off 
that is a sign that some one is stealing from him? A. I think 
it is pretty sure, if your business is as good as it has been, that 
there is a leak somewhere. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Carrigan. 1833.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2675 
Cr. Int. 10. Will you give us the date when you first de- 
tected this man stealing? A. I think I detected him. 
Cr. Int. 11. I want to know that. I want to know when? 
A. I cannot tell you; it is impossible to tell. I have no 
doubt he has been carrying this thing on for three years. 
Cr. Int. 12. You don’t know? A. I am satisfied. 
Cr. Int. 13. That may be. I am satisfied a great many 
times about things, and yet have no knowledge. My question 
is this: Name the first day when you know this man stole a 
cent of money from you? A. Well, sir, I can’t state the day; 
not exactly. 
Cr. Int. 14. Then you don’t know any day when this man 
stole anything from you ? Can you name a day when this man 
stole a single cent from you? Say yes or no to that. A. I 
don’t know what you consider stealing. 
Cr. Int. 15. Well, you define it. Take the New Hampshire 
definition of it, if you choose. A. I will tell you one instance. 
He collected money here in town which he had no business to 
collect. 
Cr. Int. 16. For you? A. Yes, sir; my livery busi- 
ness, — paid for me in good faith. 
Cr. Int. 17. I am not asking about your business? A. 
This is my business. 
Cr. Int. 18. Now, if you will follow me, I think jrou will 
understand me; and you look like an honest man. A. I 
would not answer to that. 
Cr. Int. 19. Now, sir, this is the question : Will you name 
any time, give any date, when you know that this man stole 
money from you? A. Well, sir, — 
Cr. Int. 20. Say yes or no? A. Then I will answer as 
nearly as I can. I cannot give you the date. 
Cr. Int. 21. Then say no. A. I will put it within six 
months. 
Cr. Int. 22. Within six months? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 23. Within the last six months? A. I will put it 
within six months ; that I know. 
Cr. Int. 24. Now, within the last six months you claim that 
he has stolen from you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 25. Now name the month? A. Perhaps I cannot. 
I put a man orf'his track. 
Cr. Int. 26. Very well. I want you to name the month. 
A. I don’t know as I can, sir. 2676 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cr. Int. 27. Can you name the month? A. I don’t know 
when my man commenced work ; if I did I could tell you exactly 
the date. 
Cr. Int. 28. Can you name the month ? A. It is within six 
months, I think. I know it was within six months. 
Cr. Int. 29. How do you know it? A. I know because I 
detected him. 
Cr. Int. 30. When? A. Within six months. 
Cr. Int. 31. What month did you detect him? A. Well, 
various weeks. 
Cr. Int. 32. I want one, I don’t want a dozen ; if you will 
give me one I will be satisfied. Was it in the month —? A. 
I don’t recollect when he quit. 
Cr. Int. 33. Was it in the month of December? A. If I 
remembered when he quit work I could tell the month pre- 
cisely. 
Cr. Int. 34. I ask 3*011 this. You have a great deal of circum_ 
locution, sir. I want }?ou to point out one particular date, if 
3*011 can, and I shall be very liberal with you. Point me out one 
month. You have stated that within six months he stole from 
3*ou. I ask 3*ou to name a month in which that stealing was 
done? A. I cannot tell the month. I don’t remember when 
he quit work for me ; if 1 knew that I could tell 3*ou when this 
happened the last; but I was perfectly satisfied that I detected 
him. I gave him his orders to leave me. 
Cr. Int. 35. Now wait a moment. Do 3*011 sa3* that 3*011 can 
or cannot name the month in which you detected this man steal- 
ing? A. I cannot, sir, without referring to something so I can 
learn when he quit work. 
Cr. Int. 36. Referring to what? A. When another man 
commenced work. 
Cr. Int. 37. Have 3*011 a book of that kind? A. Well, I 
can find out. 
Cr. Int. 38. I want to know if you have a book of that kind. 
Have 3*011 ? Have 3*011 a book in which you have it inserted 
when this man stole from 3*011, or some circumstance of which 
3*on have a record and b3* which 3*011 know? #A. No; I have 
circumstances, but no record. 
Cr. Int. 39. State the circumstances? A. I should first 
ascertain when he quit work. 
Cr. Int. 40. You would first ascertain whether he was there 
or not? A. That I know ; I am satisfied about that. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2677 
Cr. Int. 41. I want you to state the circumstances. You 
have put yourself in this position and I am going into it. A. 
All right; go ahead. 
Cr. Int. 42. Very well. You state the circumstances when 
this man stole money from you. A. It is within six months. 
Cr. Int. 43. I want you to tell me specifically when it was. 
A. That I cannot tell you exactly. 
Cr. Int. 44. You cannot tell the exact da}'. You and this 
man had some family trouble, didn’t you? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 45. Not a bit? A. Never a word. 
Cr. Int. 46. Never a word? A. Never a word in the world, 
in any way, shape or manner. 
Cr. Int. 47. You relieved this man Palmer from his duty* 
What do you mean by that? Has anybody taken Mr. Palmer’s 
place? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 48. What is that? A. No, sir ; no sir ; yes, yes ; 
took Mr. Palmer’s place? Not until a month or six weeks after 
he left. 
Cr. Int. 49. You have a man in his place? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 50. What is that man’s name? A. John Leighton. 
Cf. Int. 51. How long have you known him? A. For 
years. 
Cr. Int. 52. For years? A. Yes, sir ; quite a number. 
Cr. Int. 53. This man’s name is what? A. Leighton. 
Cr. Int. 54. How long have you known him? A. Well, I 
have known him always. He was raised here a boy, and I 
should think he might be twenty years old. 
Cr. Int. 55. How came you to employ this man Leighton? 
A. I employed him for that hack ; I had but one hack. 
Cr. Int. 56. Had he ever been on a hack until you employed 
him ? A. I don’t know that he had. 
Cr. Int. 57. You have known him all his life. What has 
been his occupation? A. That I don’t know ; he has been out 
of town. 
Cr. Int. 58. You don’t know but what he has been in jail? 
A. I don’t know but he has been in State prison. 
Cr. Int. 59. J But still you hired him as hack driver? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 60. Is that the only reason that you hired him? 
A. No ; it is not any reason at all. 
Cr. Int. 61. What other reason have you ? A. No particu- 
lar reason, only I wanted a man to work. 2678 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cr. Int. 62. Whether or not he is any connection of yours 
by marriage or otherwise? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 63. Leighton? A. Leighton? No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 64. Is not? A. No, sir; no connection of mine 
by marriage, or any other way, that I know of. 
Cr. Int. 65. Now, Mr. Towle, whether or not you haven’t 
stated in the town of Exeter to individuals that you considered 
this man Palmer an efficient driver of a hack and a competent 
man? A. I consider him a very good hackman ; very, as far 
as getting passengers is concerned; and I think he is pretty- 
smart in getting money. 
Cr. Int. 66. And you think you have got your share of it, 
don’t you? A. No, I don’t; if I did I should have had him 
to-day. 
Cr. Int. 67. Is not this the fact, that some little domestic in- 
felicity which you are fully conversant with, was the reason you 
discharged him? A. Not a word. 
Cr. Int. 68. Are you a man of family? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 69. How many children have you? A. Three. 
Cr. Int. 70. Boys or girls? A. Girls and a boy. 
Cr. Int. 71. How old is your girl? A. I have got one girl 
that I guess is about twenty-four — 1 think not twenty-four, — 
and the other one I guess is about twenty-two, —twenty--one or 
twenty-two. 
Cr. Int. .72. Now is’n’t it true, Mr. Towle, that this Mr. 
Palmer left your employ and was not discharged? A. No, 
sir; he never left it until I told him to leave it. 
Cr. Int. 73. You told him to leave? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 74. How long before he left? A. If you will let 
me go on and tell you the circumstances you will understand 
the whole thing in about three minutes without asking ques- 
tions. 
Mr. Carrigan. I prefer to ask them. I like to ask ques- 
tions of you. 
The Witness. I will answer if I can. 
Cr. Int. 75. Now, sir, is it not a fact that instead of any 
stealing there was some little trouble between this man Leighton 
and this man Palmer? A. I don’t know that I ever heard of a 
word of trouble in the world. 
Cr. Int. 76. Is it not true? A. Never. 
Cr. Int. 77. Is it not true? A. I don’t know that they 
ever had any trouble in the world. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2679 
Or. Int. 78. I want to ask you a question if you will allow 
me? A. I don’t know as they had anything to do with one 
another there. 
Cr. Int. 79. Is it not true that Mr. Palmer and }Tou had some 
trouble, and it was not this stealing? A. Not a word. sir. 
We never had a word of trouble in any way, shape or manner. 
Cr. Int. 80. You have stated that he is not a man to be be- 
lieved? A. No, sir; I should not believe him. 
Cr. Int. 81. You should not? A. Not without I knew the 
circumstances. 
Cr. Int. 82. Will you name another man in Exeter that ever 
told you that he would not believe Mr. Palmer under oath? A. 
I don’t know ; it is general talk. 
Cr. Int. 83. I want you to name one man? A. I could not. 
Cr. Int. 84. Will you name one man in Exeter that you* 
ever heard say they would not believe Mr. Palmer under oath? 
A. I don’t recollect an}" particular man; there are any quan- 
tity of people. 
Cr. Int. 85. Whether or not your feelings in this case are 
not prompted by some other motive than what you have stated ? 
A. No, sir; not in the least. I will tell jrou Palmer and I 
never had any words of dispute, and we got along as well as 
any two men could in the world together; and he had his own 
way in a great man}r things that he hadn’t ought to. He run 
the hack until I found he was running me into the ground, and, 
by God, he would, if I hadn’t caught on. 
Cr. Int. 86. When did he begin to do this? A. I have no 
doubt two or three years ago. 
Cr. Int. 87. You have no doubt? A. I have no doubt; but 
I had no means of proving it. 
Cr. Int. 88. Then you have no knowledge? A. I put on a 
man on the hack to catch him, and he did catch him. 
Cr. Int. 89. Who was the man? A. Watson. 
Cr. Int. 90. He is a reputable man, is’n’t he? A. I don’t 
know ; he has always told the truth to me. I don’t know any- 
thing further. 
Cr. Int. 91. You don’t know anything about his reputation? 
A. Yes, I know it. 
Cr. Int. 92. What is his reputation in this town? A. I 
don’t know why it is’n’t good. 
Cr. Int. 93. Is it any better than Palmer’s? A. I should 
consider it better. 2680 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cr. Int. 94. Didn’t you go upon the rule of putting on a 
thief to catch a thief? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 95. What? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 96. What rule did you go by? A. I put him on 
to catch a thief if he could. 
Cr. Int. 97. Then you put on an angel to catch a thief? A. 
I put on one honester than Palmer. 
Cr. Int. 98. But still you cannot give the date when you did 
detect this man in any stealing? A. I tell you he has been 
carrying it on — 
Cr. Int. 99. I understand, that is general; but I want you 
to point out some particular day? A. I don’t put it on any 
day. 
Cr. Int. 100. Why didn’t j"ou enter a complaint to the autho- 
rities, if that is the case? A. If what is the case? 
Cr. Int. 101. That this man was a thief? A. Because I 
had no way to prove it. 
Cr. Int. 102. Then you had no knowledge about it, did you? 
A. It is a pretty hard thing to prove it. 
Cr. Int. 103. Wait a minute. I presume you are a law- 
abiding citizen here? A. I don’t know. 
Cr. Int. 104. You believe in having men get their deserts? 
A. I do ; and I believe he will get it. 
Cr. Int. 105. If you knew a man was a thief, wouldn’t it be 
3Tour duty" to go to the authorities here and make a complaint? 
A. Yes ; but you would have to have some evidence. 
Cr. Int. 106. Did you go and make a complaint against 
Palmer? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 107. Why? A. Because I could not furnish the 
evidence. I had to put on a man, and when I caught him and 
satisfied myself, I told him to get out of my employ. 
Cr. Int. 108. Why, then, didn’t' you go to the authorities 
with this complaint? A. Because I could not back it up with 
evidence. 
Cr. Int. 109. What evidence ? A. I could not get it. 
Cr. Int. 110. Get what? A. • Evidence. 
Cr. Int. 111. How did 30U know he had been stealing? A. 
Because my money fell short. Damn it, that will tell me ; when 
my money don’t come in and I am watching my business, and 
know my business is as good as it ever has been. The pocket 
will tell. 
Cr. Int. 112. There is no question but what the pocket will 1881 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2681 
tell; but are there not other men in this town whose business 
has fallen off and yet they keep their employes? A. I don’t 
know but there are. I have as much as I want to do to attend 
to my own business. 
Cr. Int. 113. Then all }rou have to say is that you had a sus- 
picion that your business was falling off, and on account of this 
deficit and that suspicion alone you discharged him? A. Noth- 
ing else. He and 1 never had a word of dispute. 
Cr. Int. 114. Then }rou don’t know of your own personal 
knowledge anything against him? You don’t know that he is a 
thief, do you? A. Yes, I do. 
Cr. Int. 115. Where is your proof ? A. I have told you. 
Cr. Int. 11G. You sa}7 }7ou know he is a thief? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Cr. Int. 117. How do you know it? A. Because I put a 
man on driving, a perfect stranger, who didn’t know anything 
about hacking at all, a perfect green man at this depot, and he 
turned in double the money that he did, after Palmer had driven 
for me three or four years. He turned in double the money ; 
Palmer didn’t know how much he took. 
Cr. Int. 118. Let me ask you one question in conclusion: 
You charge this man Palmer with being a thief? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 119. You claim that he is not a man to be believed? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 120. Now, I ask you this one question — and I re- 
peat it so you may understand it — can 3011 name one man in 
the town of Exeter who has ever told }rou that he would not be- 
lieve this man Palmer under oath? A. I don’t know as I have 
heard a man — 
Cr. Int. 121. Say yes or no. A. I don’t know as I have 
heard a man use those words ; I don’t know as I have heard any 
man use those words ; but his general reputation is — 
Cr. Int. 122. You are talking about reputation. Let me 
ask }Tou this. What do }7ou understand by a man’s general 
reputation? A. Well, 1 don’t consider a dishonest man’s repu- 
tation very good, not after I find him out. 
Cr. Int. 123. And }7et, may there not be men in this commu- 
nity who are living a comparatively honorable life, and yet some- 
body may know something against them ; and those men are 
regarded b\r the public as honest men, are they not? A. They 
be, until the}7 are found out. 
Cr. Int. 124. Now, for your own benefit as well as for Mr. 2682 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apf. 
Palmer’s — because it seems to me y-ou put yrourself in a ridicu- 
lous place here — A. I don’t know but what it is. 
Cr. Int. 125. I want you to state whether or not any- man in 
the town of Exeter— and, if so, I want the man’s name — ever 
told you they would not believe this man under oath ? You can 
answer yes or no. A. I have answered that question. 
Cr. Int. 126. How do you answer? A. I have told you I 
don’t know that I ever heard any man use those words. 
Cr. Int. 127. That disposes of his veracity as far as you 
know. Now the question of his integrity : You charge this 
man with being a thief. Now I ask you, can you recall any 
date or any circumstance or proof which leads you to the con- 
clusion that this man is a thief, or is it just, simply your own 
suspicion? A. I have told y-ou. I have answered that ques- 
tion. 
Cr. Int. 128. Answer it again. A. I will answer it again. 
I put a man on — 
Cr. Int. 129. I want y-ou to answer me yes or no. A. Yes 
or no what? 
Cr. Int. 130. Answer me this question : Have you ever de- 
tected Mr. Palmer in thieving? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 131. Well, when? A. When I told you. 
Cr. Int. 132. When? A. After I put a man on. 
Cr. Int. 133. That is not detection. I want you to tell me 
whether you ever detected this man Palmer in stealing ? Did 
you? A. Well, I don’t know what you styde stealing. 
Cr. Int. 134. Did you ever see him take money- from 3'ou? 
A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 135. Did 3-011 ever see him take mone3T from any- 
bodyr else? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 136. Anything that didn’t belong to him ? A. No. 
Cr. Int. 137. Did any man ever tell 3-011 that he did so? A. 
You don’t consider it thieving if a man goes and collects your 
mone3r without authority? What do 3-ou call that? 
Cr. Int. 138. From whom? A. A lady- here in town. He 
went and collected it. 
Cr. Int. 139. From whom? A. I forget now; a lady- up 
on Lincoln Street; I don’t recollect her name this morning. 
Cr. Int. 140. I want you to tell me the name. I want 3-011 
to tell me the name, and 1 don’t want any- assistance from any- 
body- else — of any person in this town of Exeter that this man 
ever stole money from or ever collected money- from without au- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2683 
thority? A. lie collected a bill for riding, for horses and 
carriages, that he had no authority to. He didn’t know what the 
bill was. He went to her, he called on her for the money, and 
she paid it —that is, a portion of the bill. He said nothing to 
me about it and I knew nothing about it. And I made up my 
account last December and took the bill off and sent it to her. 
She said she had paid Palmer seven dollars of it. That is the 
first I knew about it. 
Cr. Int. 141. You don’t know the lady’s name, do you? 
A. A lady on Lincoln Street. 
Cr. Int. 142. You don’t know her name, do you? That is 
an important thing. How do you know but that the lady was 
a liar. A. I don’t know but she was. They may be all liars. 
I should take her word before I should Mr. Palmer’s. 
Int. 14. You didn’t discover that this money had been col- 
lected until after Palmer’s discharge, did you? A. No, sir; I 
knew nothing about it until I sent up the bill to her. 
Int. 15. After you discharged Palmer how long was it be- 
fore he left Exeter? A Fie was about here, I should think, 
six weeks, perhaps. 
Int. 16. Then he went to Boston? A. He went from here 
to Boston, so I understand. 
Int. 17. Then when was the next thing 3’ou heard about 
him? A. I heard of him occasionally. People have told me 
of meeting him on the street in Boston ; but I have not heard 
much about him until I saw his name in the paper. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Re-cross examination by Mr. Carrigan. 
Cr. Int. 143. Have you ever been asked to go to Boston to 
testify in this case before to-day? A. Never, sir. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Int. 18. You have no objection, Mr. Towle, to going to Bos- 
ton if you are wanted, have ‘you ? A. Well, I should go, I 
suppose. 
(Signed) Levi GL Towle. 
* 
Gov. Butler. That was one of the depositions that need 
not have been taken, because he. would have come. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I thought I would take it, seeing I was 2684 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
up there ; that was all. Mr. Carrigan didn’t have enough to 
fill in the time until the train went. I will now read the deposi- 
tion of James T. Sawyer. [Reading.] 
Deposition of James T. Sawver. 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Int. 1. What is your full name? A. James T. Sawyer. 
Int. 2. What is your business? A. Engineer in this cot- 
ton mill. 
Int. 3. How long have you been emplo}red there? A. Iam 
going on my eleventh year. 
Int. 4. Do you know Mr. Palmer who for several years was 
engaged as hack driver for Mr. Towle, who has just left the 
stand ? A. I do. 
Int. 5. Do 3 011 know him pretty well? A. Well, I have 
been acquainted with him ; I don’t know as I could say just how 
long ; perhaps five or six years. 
Int. 6. Did you ever live in the same building where he did? 
A. I did. !• occupied one-half of the house and he the other. 
Int. 7. That is, he in one end and you in the other? A. 
Well, it was all separate excepting one room ; to get to that 
one room I had to cross the hall of his ; otherwise, we were not 
connected. 
Int. 8. Do you know what was his reputation here in Exe- 
ter for truth and veracity? A. Well, I have heard people re- 
mark he was a liar. 
Int. 9. You know his reputation, do }’ou? A. I do. 
Int. 10. What was it? A. I considered it very bad. 
Int. 11. Did he enjoy the reputation of being an honest 
man? A. Well, as I said, I have heard people make remark 
that he was a liar. 
Int. 12. Aside from being an untruthful man, did he enjoy 
the reputation of being an honest man? A. I suppose to be 
a truthful man he should be an honest man. 
Int. 13. How about his appropriating other people’s prop- 
erty? Did he have any reputation in that regard? A. I could 
not say anything about that. 
Cr. Int. 1. IIow long have you resided in Exeter, sir? A. 
It was sixteen years ago last February, I think, that I came 
here first, and I have been away in that time, at different times, 
Cross-examination by Mr. Carrigan. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2685 
I think it would perhaps make three years ; I don’t know but a 
little more than that. I lived a time in New Market, and I lived 
a while in Salisbury, Mass. 
Cr. Int. 2. You have stated that you think Mr. Palmer en- 
joys the reputation of being a liar in this town? A. I have 
heard it said so. I have heard people make that remark. 
Cr. Int. 3. Now name one man who said so? A. W. H. 
Belknap. 
Cr. Int. 4. Who is W. H. Belknap? A. He is, or was, 
town clerk ; I cannot say that he is town clerk. 
Cr. Int. 5. A Republican town clerk? A. I presume he 
is. 
Cr. Int. 6. Now state under what circumstances it was that 
this gentlemen told you this? A. He commenced a conversa- 
tion about a paper he witnessed, and he said: *• I don’t want 
you to think that I had anything to do with that paper person- 
ally except so far as I was officially obliged to have.” 
Cr. Int. 7. What was the paper? A. It was a writ or 
warrant. 
Cr. Int. 8. A writ and a warrant? A. It was a writ or a 
warrant. 
Cr. Int. 9. Was the same served on you? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 10. That is quite entertaining at this point. State 
whether or not you were taken into the police court on that? 
A. I was. 
Cr. 11. And you were convicted? A. I was fined one 
dollar. 
Cr. Int. 12. Were you convicted? A. I suppose I was. 
Cr. Int. 13. Now, Mr. Sawyer, whether or not you haven’t 
had some trouble with Mr. Palmer? A. I did have a little 
trouble. 
Cr. Int. 14. Whether or not you haven’t a personal griev- 
ance against him? Do you love the man? A. No, sir; I 
don’t. 
Cr. Int. 15. Do you have a personal spite against him? A. 
I have. 
Cr. Int. 16. You don’t enjoy him at all? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 17. You practically hate him? A. I do. 
Cr. Int. 18. You are practically prejudiced against him? A. 
Well, only so far as that usage is concerned. 
Cr. Int. 19. And you have said you meant to get square with 
him? A. I don’t know. 2686 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cr. Int. 20. Will you swear that you haven’t said that }’ou 
will make yourself even ? A. I would not state one way or 
the other. 
Cr. Int. 21. Will }'ou swear that you haven’t stated to peo- 
ple in Exeter that jtou would get even with him? A. I don’t 
know that I never said so. 
Cr. Int. 22. Will you swear you didn’t? A. I would not 
swear one way or the other. 
Cr. Int. 23. I don’t think you will. Now, Mr. Sawyer, who 
was the plaintiff in this case, or complainant? A. Mr. Palmer. 
Cr. Int. 24. You were convicted, were}Tou not? Mr. Palmer 
was the complainant, was he? What was the trouble? You 
ma}' state it all. The court found you guilty, didn’t It? A. It 
did. He and I lived in the house together, and he kept a pretty 
bad house. It was carousing and noise all through the night, 
and some nights it was all night long. And I complained to 
the agent or clerk of the owner, Mr. Blanchard. The owner 
was a man by the name of Fitz. And I complained to him; 
or, rather, lirst I notified him that I would leave the house in 
thirty days. He asked me why I was going to leave, and I told 
him I would not live in the house if Palmer stayed there ; and 
he said Palmer should leave, if that was the case. 
Mr. Caruigan. Never mind what he said. 
The Witness. I told him under those circumstances I would 
stay there. Every time he came for his rent I would remind 
him of his promise to have Palmer leave ; and finally he had 
papers served on him, notice to quit the premises. 
Cr. Int. 25. How do 3011 know that; did you see the papers? 
A. No, sir. I was going to state that 1 understood so and 
that Palmer told me so. 
Cr. Int. 26. You don’t know it? A. Only what Palmer 
told me ; and it maj' not have been true. 
Cr. Int. 27. He told you, and that you believed? A. I 
could not have believed it only for the circumstance that 
Blanchard told me that he should. He came down to the mill 
and he said that I bad been trying to get him out of the house, 
and if it hadn’t been for that wife of mine, who was a d—d 
black bitch and a d—d whore, there would have been no 
trouble. 
Cr. Int. 28. Y<>u stated that? A. He stated that, and 
upon that I started a little blood out of him. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2687 
Cr. Int. 29. You started a little blood out of him? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Cr. Int. 30. And }Tou were convicted for striking him. Now, 
that was not the first time you have been convicted? A. It 
was not. 
Cr. Int. 31. No, was it? Will you swear that you were 
never convicted in any court before ? A. I never was. 
Cr. Int. 32. Sure about that? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 33. Will you swear that you were not in jail at 
Portsmouth? A. Yes; 1 will. 
Cr. Int. 34. Will you swear you were not? A. Yes, sir. I 
consider your question an insult. 
Cr. Int. 35 You do? A. Yes, sir. 
Cr. Int. 36. What kind of a question, do }tou think, would 
not insult you? A. Have you an}r reason to believe I was in 
jail? Did you ever hear that I was? 
Cr. Int. 37. 1 am examining you. I asked you the question ; 
you can deny it. A. I never was in jail in Portsmouth. 
Cr. Int. 38. Or anywhere else? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 39. But you were arrested here? A. I was. 
Cr. Int. 40. And you swear that you were never in court on 
any complaint but once? A. That is the only time. 
Cr. Int. 41. Never convicted but once? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 42. Now, Mr. Sawyer, by whom have been em- 
ployed in this town? A. For the Exeter Manufacturing Com- 
pany. The agent is Harvey Kent; I do my business for him. 
Gov. Butler. How much longer will it take you? 
Mr. Brown. 1 have seven or eight pages yet to read. 
Gov. Butler. You may go on reading if you will let me 
step down stairs a few moments. 
Mr. Brown. [Reading.] 
Cr. Int. 43. Are you working for him now? A. I am. 
Cr. Int. 44. When did you first have any conversation with 
anybody about this case? A. Which? 
Cr. Int. 45. This Tewksbury matter; coming in here and 
trying to impeach Mr. Palmer? A. I never heard of it until 
to-day. 
Cr. Int 46. Who was the first man who spoke to you about 
this? A. I don’t see the man here. 
Cr. Int. 47. Was it Mr. Sargent? A. Mr. Sargent — I 
think it was. 2688 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cr. Int. 48. Is he a resident of Exeter? A. I don’t know 
where he lives. 
Cr. Int. 49. Whether or not, if you were invited, you would 
go to Boston and testify in this case—go before the committee? 
A. At what time? 
Cr. Int. 50. At any time. Have you been invited to go to 
Boston and testify before this committee? A. 1 have. 
Cr. Int. 51. Who invited you? A. I think Mr. Sargent. 
Cr. Int. 52. When did he do it? A. This afternoon. 
Cr. Int. 53. But before this afternoon has anybody ever 
spoken to you about going to Boston? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 54. And you have never refused to go to Boston? 
A. Well, conditionally, I told him — it was an agreement that 
I should not leave my work to go away, except in case of sick- 
ness or death, when the agent was away. He is away now, and 
I should not leave under any consideration, except in the cases 
mentioned, when he is away. It is agreed that I should not, 
except for a short time — for half an hour or such a matter. 
Cr. Int. 55. Now, is there any other man in the town of 
Exeter that you will swear you have heard state that he would 
not believe Mr. Palmer under oath? By the way, did this towui 
clerk tell you that he wouldn’t believe him under oath? A. He 
did not say that he would not believe him under oath. 
Cr. Int. 56. Now, has an}7 person in Exeter, or elsewrhere, 
told you that he would not believe Mr. Palmer under oath? A. 
I don’t know that I have heard anybody use those words. 
Cr. Int. 57. And as far as you know, except among your 
own associates, Palmer is an honest man — as far as you know7? 
A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 58. What do you know against him? A. I know 
what he has told me. 
Cr. Int. 59. But wrhat has anybody else told you? Name a 
man in Exeter that ever told you that he didn’t believe Mr. 
Palmer to be an honest man, other than perhaps Mr. Towle? 
A. He didn’t say he was not an honest man. He said he wras 
a liar. I cannot name any other. 
Cr. Int. 60. Name the whole town if you can? A. I could 
not name the whole town. 
Cr. Int. 61. If you are a truthful man I should just like to 
take down the check list and see if it is true. We don’t want 
Mr. Palmer unless he is a truthful man to be believed ? A. I 
could not name a great many, of course. i883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2689 
Cr. Int. 62. When Mr. Sargent spoke to you to-day what 
was the conversation? A. He said he wanted me to come 
over here — I didn’t understand to what office. 
Cr. Int. 63. Did 3rou understand wdiat 3rou were to come 
here for? A. He wanted me to testif3r in relation to what I 
knew' about Palmer. 
Cr. Int. 64. And you were very willing to come, were 3'ou 
not? A. No, I don’t know ; I had no particular objection, of 
course ; but if I had said I would not come I don’t know as 
there was any wa3' of bringing me here — I don’t know that 
there was. 
Cr. Int. 65. Didn’t they serve a notice on you? Did they 
give 3Tou a subpoena? A. I had no written notice. 
Cr. Int. 66. Didn’t the3T read aiyffhing to you? A. No, 
sir. 
Cr. Int. 67. Then you didn’t come here b3T subpoena, did 
3Tou? A. No, sir. 
Cr. Int. 68. You came here of your own free will, didn’t 
3'ou? A. He asked me if I would come over. 
Cr. Int. 69. Did he pu3T you anything for it? A. He has 
not. 
Cr. Int. 70. He has not yet. And up to this time 3Tou haven’t 
had any subpoena read to you, had no cop3r served on you, no 
fee for a wdtness, and 3rou are here without a fee? A. I am. 
Cr. Int. 71. Then you are here as a veiy willing witness? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Int. 14. You were asked to tell the trouble you had with 
Palmer. You say that he lived in one end of the house and 3rou 
lived in the other. Did he keep a house of ill fame in his end? 
A. I could not swear to it. 
Int. 15. What was the reputation of it? A. Well, there 
was noise there ; I don’t know whether you would call it a house 
of ill fame, or what it was. 
Int. 16. Was he living with his wife? A. I don’t know 
who the woman was. There were people there sometimes. I 
should think there might have been two couples and sometimes 
three couples of men and women. At nine or ten o’clock they 
went to different rooms in the house ; for what purpose, I don’t 
know'. 
Int. 17 Did the}r stay there long? A. Well, I would not 2690 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apt. 
know; I would not hear them go away; I would probably be 
asleep. 
Int. 18. You don’t know who they were ? A. No. 
Int. 19. Did come in hacks? A. I could not tell you 
how they came. 
Int. 20. Did you have any other trouble with him that you 
recall? Do you recollect whether your wood pile grew small? 
A. Well, I never accused him of taking my wood or coal. I 
had no proof against any one. I knew some one came into the 
shed and took it, but I could not whether it was him or some 
other person. I had no means of knowing, except that I knew 
that some one took it. 
Int. 21. You never knew him to bu}' any wood, did }’ou? 
A. Well, he had wood, but I never saw him pa}ring for any. 
(Signed) James T. Sawyer. 
Testimony of Charles B. Marsh (recalled). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. [Producing a register.] I want to ask you, Mr. Marsh, 
if that is the register of visitors? A. That is the register of 
visitors. 
Q. How long has that been at the institution? A. I should 
say I found it there when I went there. 
Q. That is, in 1869. Just read the first date in it. A. 
The first date is September 11, 1863. 
Q. That is, about six years before you went there. And 
has that been there continuously since you have been there? 
A. Yes, sir; on the table, in the office. 
Q. What is the entry of the last visitor? A. Annie T. 
Fay, I should think it was ; on the 25th of June, 1883. 
The Chairman. 1 wish you would have the register of births 
and deaths brought up, if it is not here. We will take a recess 
for ten minutes — ten minutes for refreshments. 
[Recess.] 
Testimony of Francis B. Records (recalled). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Mr. Records, have you been examining the bills in the 
auditor’s office? A. I have, sir. 
Q. And have you made a list of all the bills, commencing 
with 18G0, found in the auditor's office; or, if not, what bills 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2691 
have you made a list of? A. I have made a list of bills for 
repairs, special appropriations for buildings, — additional build- 
ings ; lumber, crockery, — 
Q. Well, everything outside of what? A. Nearly every- 
thing outside of food for men and animals, and clothing. I 
have put in bedding, — all those things I knew were for bed- 
ding. Some things were not described so I could tell whether 
they7 were for sheets or for shirts. Those I supposed were for 
sheets, I have put in ; also for fuel and lights. 
Q. And you commenced with 1860? A. 1861, I think it 
was. 
Q. 1861. And brought it down to what time? A. I am 
now down to 1882 — through 1881. 
Q. [Referring to sheets of paper.] And these are the 
sheets, are they? A. Those are the sheets. 
Mr. Brown. I called Mr. Records because I had no other 
witness present at the time. 
Q. You can go on and complete the sheets, — you can by 
Monday', can’t you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. You can complete them down to the first of 
January7, 1883, and then we will put them in. If you will just 
mark each of them in t he order in which they come with your 
initials, so that when they are put in we can identify them. 
Gov. Butler. I will embrace the opportunity to ask Mr. 
Records a question or two. 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Have you looked over these books, at Tewksbury, of the 
trustees? [Trustees’ records.] A. Yes, sir; I have looked 
over some of them. 
Q. You find that the trustees did important business with 
only one man there? A. Oh, there was one meeting where 
they approved bills, etc., and went through the usual form. 
Q. Went through the usual form of a meeting. What time 
was that, sir? Is this [a memorandum] your memorandum? 
A. That is in 1871. 
Gov. Butler. Have you the trustees’ books? Let us see 
what they did in July, 1871. [Referring to a volume of 
trustees’ records and reading.] 
July, 1871,—Present at this meeting, F, II. Nourse, The bills 
for June were examined and all found receipted. The foregoing 2692 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
schedule of bills presented by the superintendent was examined and 
approved. 
(Signed) Tugs. J. Marsh, Jr., Clerk. 
Mr. Brown. What is that month? 
Gov. Butler. July, 1871. Now, January, 1875. [Read- 
ing.] 
[Copy.] 
COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. 
January Meeting, 1875, 
Board of State Charities, 
Gene. Agt’s Department, 
State House, Boston, January 14, 1875. 
Hon. Francis H. Nourse, 
Chairman Inspectors State Almshouse, Tewksbury, Mass. 
Dear Sir: —1 was at Tewksbury to-day, and was informed by 
one of the inmates that the night nurse of the hospital threw a pail 
of water upon her, drenching both bed and personal clothing 
while she, the inmate, was lying in bed. 
The attention of the superintendent was called to the matter, and 
from his answer 1 inferred that there could be no doubt about the 
drenching. He also informed me that he had reported the facts to 
the inspectors 
My purpose in writing is to insure an investigation by the Board 
of Inspectors, and to record as my deliberate judgment that a per- 
son who allows her passions to attain such mastery as permits the 
throwing of a pail of water upon a bedridden patient, is unfit for the 
position of nurse. 
Very respect’y, 
Your obt. servt., 
S. C. WrIGHTINGTON, 
General Agent State Charities. 
(Signed) 
“ On motion of Mr. Elliot, action on the foregoing communication 
from the general agent was postponed until Friday, 5th proximo, at 
nine o’clock, to which time the meeting adjourned.” 
f 
Then, at a special meeting, February 5 — [Reading.] 
“ Mr. Nourse presented a communication received from the gene- 
ral agent of the board of state charities, Jan. 14th,ult., in reference to 
a complaint made by Helena Reardon against Mrs. Pasho, night 
nurse, and, on motion of Mr. Salford, voted, That the same be placed 
on file.” 
“ The board of inspectors, having made full and careful investi- 
gation of the complaint of Helena Reardon against Cath. M. B. 
Pasho, hospital nurse, for improper and abusive treatment received 
from said Pasho, find 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2693 
“ That Mrs. Pasho is not guilty of any abusive treatment of said 
Reardon, although she may have been excited by the insubordina- 
tion of the patient to hasty language, and that the patient is guilty 
of insolent and insubordinate conduct to the nurse, specially calcu- 
lated to irritate and jn'ovoke; and we further find, after all the evi- 
dence, that Mrs. Pasho has been uniformly kind and attentive to 
those under her charge. 
“ On motion of Mr Elliot, voted, That the clerk be instructed to 
send a copy of the above action to Mr. WTightington and to Mrs. 
Pasho. 
“ On motion of Mr. Elliot, and on the recommendation of the 
superintendent, voted, That the compensation of Mrs. Pasho be in- 
creased to $21.00 per month from Feb. 1.” 
They had found out her virtues. And the following commu- 
nication from the board of state charities was received, — 
this was the insane department, I believe : — 
“Voted, That the inspectors of the State almshouse be asked to 
meet the board at an early date for a conference as to the manage- 
ment of the insane department of the almshouse, with special refer- 
ence to the commitment of patients thereto, and the keeping of the 
registers of the department.” 
That is all there was done with that. Now, let me see 
again, “Special meeting, Feb. 1 1, 1875.” [Reading.] 
“ On motion of Mr. Elliot, voted, That the superintendent be 
authorized in an emergency to place stoves in any of the inmates’ 
apartments, whenever, in his opinion, the comfort of the inmates 
require it.” 
And then, after a conference with the board of charities, it 
was voted, — 
“ That persons originally committed to the State almshouse shall 
be transferred to the asylum for the harmless insane by the written 
order of the general agent of the boai-d of State charities, on certifi- 
cate of the physician to the insane; and no person once entered on 
the register of the asylum for the harmless insane shall be trans- 
ferred to another institution except to a State lunatic hospital.” 
Then, May 14, 1875, special meeting. [Reading.] 
“ The report of the committee appointed to investigate and report 
the facts in regard to the confinement of certain insane inmates for 
refusal to labor, having been presented and read by the chairman. 
Dr. Whitaker, and haring been accepted, 2694 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
“ Voted, That we are still of the opinion heretofore informally 
expressed, that such confinement was injudicious, and merits our 
disapproval; and that the cells in the almshouse, used at the time, 
were unsuitable for the confinement of any of the female inmates, 
except for a short time, in cases of great emergency; but that we 
believe that Dr. Whitaker, in his treatment of these patients, was 
actuated solely by a desire to promote their well being, and not with 
any purpose of punishing them for a disobedience of his rules, and 
that his error was one of judgment solely. 
“ Voted, That the physician of the insane hereafter report monthly 
in writing, to the superintendent, all cases of insubordination and 
disorderly conduct in his department, with a statement of the 
measures of discipline or coercion used therein, and that the super- 
intendent report the same to the inspectors.” 
[ Referring to another record.] Well, I shall want to put in 
some more evidence before 1 put that in. You keep that in my 
mind. That is all, Mr. Records. 
Mr. Brown. That is all, Mr. Records. 
Testimony of Emma F. Kimball (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. Emma Frances Kimball. 
Q. Have you counted the number of signatures in that 
register of visitors at the Tewksbury almshouse? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. We haven’t got the name of the witness. 
Mr. Brown. Emma F. Kimball. 
Q. Just read off the number in each year. A. In 1863, 572 ; 
in 1864, 1,486; in 1865, 1,586; in 1866, 903; in 1867, 581 ; 
in 1868, 606; in 1869, 807; in 1870, 628; in 1871,416; in 
1872, 235; in 1873, 343; in 1874, 1,198; in 1875, 957; in 
1876, 941 ; in 1877, 718 ; in 1878, 517 ; in 1879, 603 ; in 1880, 
361 ; in 1881, 352 ; in 1882, 389 ; in 1883, 561. 
Q. Making the total number of signatures in the book, how 
many? A. 14,755. 
Q. You have counted every signature in the book, have 
3tou? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that is the record }rou made at the time you counted 
them? A. Yes, sir. < 
Q. Are you engaged at the almshouse ? A. No, sir, 
Mr. Brown. Shu in a clerk in my office, 
Gov.*Butler. Tfiat is all, 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2695 
Testimony of Charles B. Marsh (recalled). 
Q. Have you examined the registers of inmates and made 
up the record of Mary Tyner? A. I have examined the regis- 
ters at the State House, but I have not examined the one I have 
opened at the institution since the books were sent down. 
Q. Well, now I want }'ou to give me the record of Mary 
Tyner as it stands on the books of the institution, that is, the 
books that have been sent here, showing when she entered, 
when she was discharged, and what was her condition when 
brought in in each case. A. The first entry I find is No. 
32,193 ; admitted December 23, 1868 ; sentenced to the state 
workhouse at Bridgewater March 24, 1869. She was then in a 
family way. 
Q. Take the next. A. No. 38,138; admitted January 9, 
1872, discharged Ma}r 6, 1872 ; child three years old ; child 
went with her. 
Q. Take the next. A. No. 38,725; admitted May 18, 
1872; absconded July 18, 1872. Then No. 59,311; admitted 
March 31, 1880; discharged May 4, 1880. No. 62,424; ad- 
mitted August 4, 1881 ; discharged October 12, 1881. No. 
63,483 ; admitted October 26, 1881 ; discharged February 8,1882. 
No. 65,261 ; admitted July 27, 1882 ; discharged February 7, 
1883. No. 67,285 ; admitted March 9, 1883 ; discharged March 
21, 1883. And there are one or more admissions since. 
Q. That is, since March, 1883, she has been admitted and 
discharged once or twice? A. Yes, sir. She is not at the 
institution at present. She was discharged two weeks ago. 
Gov. Butler. That is Mary Tyner or Tynan? She is the 
woman that French Joe talked about? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I notice that No. 38,725 was admitted May 18, 
1872, and absconded July 18, 1872. And then the next entry 
is No. 59,311, admitted March 31,%1880. Then I understand 
this ; that so far as the books of the institution are concerned, 
it does not appear that she was an inmate from July 18, 1872, 
down to the 31st day of March, 1880 — nearly eight years? 
A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Do you say she was or was not there? 
Mr. Brown. I say she was not. Well, now there is one 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 2696 
Charitable institutions. 
[Apr. 
other matter about which I wanted to examine Mr. Marsh, but 
he has not been able to get hold of the books to make the 
examination. 
Gov. Butler. I have not hindered you. 
T1 ie Witness. The book didn’t happen to be in the room 
when I was there. 
Gov. Butler. I want to ask you a single question or two 
about Mary Tyner or Tynan. 
Q. She was a notoriously licentious person, I suppose? A. 
That was the reputation she enjoyed. 
Q. What was the occasion for these discharges? A. She 
would simply ask for her discharge, like airy other inmate, and 
she was discharged. 
Q. Then she would go out and pursue her trade until she got 
into condition she could not go any longer? A. I don’t know 
what she did when she was out, sir. She came in, generally, in 
bad condition. 
Q. Has her friend Mr. Joseph Howard gone? A. He has 
left us. 
Q. Was he discharged? A. He was discharged. 
Gov. Butler. I believe that is all, sir. 
Mr. Brown. There are some other questions I wanted to ask 
Mr. Marsh, but he is not prepared to testify, because he lias not 
had a chance to examine the books. [To the witness ] I wish 
you would examine them for Monday morning. 
The-CHAiRMAN. Anything else, Mr. Browm ? 
Mr. Brown. 1 had summoned a witness from Gloucester, 
but for some reason he has not put in an appearance. With 
that exception 1 have no other witness. With the exception of 
a single question I want to ask Mr. Marsh, and a question I 
want to ask Mr. Haskell of Gloucester, I have not anything fur- 
ther. 
The Chairman. Governor, you say you have one witness 
that you can put on to-day. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; he was here. Is Bernard O’Kane 
here ? 
Mr. O’Kane. Yes, sir. I would like to ask the chairman the 
privilege of saying a word of explanation before being sworn. 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment. Not now. You will be 
sworn first. 
[The witness wras sworn.] 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1883.] 
HOtJSE — No. 300. 
2697 
TESTIMONY IN REBUTTAL. 
Testimony of Bernard O’Kane (sworn). 
Q. What is jour age, Mr. O’Kane? A. Fifty-four. 
Q. And when were you in Tewksbury? A. I went there 
in February, 18G1. 
Q. IIow do you know that? Have you any memorandum of 
it? A. I have made a memorandum of it. 
Q. From February 11, 1861, to September 30, 1861 ? A. I 
got this from the report. 
Q, You went Feb. 11 and stayed until September? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. What was your position? Who recommended you? A. 
Governor Andrew. 
Q. And what was your position there? A. Well, I was 
set down as assistant superintendent. 
Q. As what? A. Assistant superintendent. 
Q. Did you leave there of 3rour own accord ? A. I did, 
sir. I was leaving there every month to come down to get a 
position in the custom house. 
Q. That is to say, you had been for some months looking for 
a position in the custom house? A. Yes, sir; it was the un- 
derstanding when I went there. I will repeat to you what 
Governor Andrew said. He said : You go up there, and if the 
man that I want appointed collector is appointed, you shall have 
the place you wish. 
Q. Did you leave there willingly ? A. I left there willingly, 
and I got a very nice recommendation from Capt. Marsh, volun- 
tarily offered. 
Q. A nice recommendation, to be used in getting your place 
at the custom house? A. It was a general one. 
Q. Where is it now?/ A. I have lost the paper. In look- 
ing over my other documents I could not find it. 
Q. While you were in the institution I want to ask j’ou if 
you were in the habit of getting drunk, or if you were discharged 
for intoxication? A. No, sir. There was no liquor in the 
institution to my knowledge. Never was a word uttered, or 
an insinuation made of that kind, to reach me in any official 
way. I heard there were such insinuations made here the other 
day. That is what brought me up here. 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 2698 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Ap t, 
Q. You came to me. Do you remember writing a letter to 
Governor Rice, or to some governor or board of state chari- 
ties, about what complaints were made to you? A. I did write 
a letter at the time there was a former investigation going on. 
I don’t remember the contents of it. 
Q. Well, we have it here, — stating certain complaints. Were 
you ever called upon by anybody to make good those com- 
plaints? A. No, sir; never heard from them. 
Gov. Butler. The O’Kane letter was one of those that Mr. 
Nourse reported about — that this man was discharged for in- 
toxication. 
Q. Well sir, how long did you sta}r in the custom house then ? 
A. I came down from Tewksbury on the first of October, I 
believe, 1861, and I followed up the application with great pres- 
sure ; and I have some letters here that will show my efforts ; 
and I got appointed. 
Q. Did you get letters from prominent men that knew you ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you have them here to show ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, you got into the custom house ; how long did you 
stay? A. I got appointed February 5 or 7, 1862, about three 
months after I left Tewksbury. 
Q. How long did you stay there then ? A. I sta}red there 
from that time until about the middle of April, 1867. 
Q. AYas there a change then and did you have to get out? 
A. Judge Russell came in as collector. 
Q. And you went out? A. To make room for a one- 
armed soldier. I have got a letter here. 
Q. Let us see what you went out for? A. This letter 
comes in a roundabout wa}1- from Sam Hooper. 
Q. He wanted to know why you were discharged? 
Mr. Brown. From where? 
Gov. Butler. From the custom house. 
[Letters produced by witness.] 
Q. The object of your removal was to make room for a one- 
armed soldier. A. Yes, sir, that was the reason given to me ; 
but Judge Russell wrote to Mr. Sam Hooper that I was dis- 
charged for opposing the Republican party. I have got it here 
in another letter. 
The Chairman. That is cause, anywhere. 
Q. It appeared in the department that you were discharged 
to make room for a one-armed soldier, and then the other letter 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2699 
was the other way. When did you get back again into the 
custom house? A. I got back again Feb. 18, 1881. In the 
meantime I held other offices. I was revenue inspector in the 
third district for two years — for nearly two years. I held 
three commissions : Lading officer, officer to take charge of 
spirits in bond, and then regular inspector. 
Q. And now are— ? A. Now I am at large again. 
Q. Since when? A. Last Sunday morning. 
Q. You held office up to last Sunday morning, which was 
July 1st. Whether 3'ou having been there, — whether there was 
complaints made to you ; that is, people that had been at the 
almshouse came there and told 3011 what had happened. 
Mr. Brown. I pra}' the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. I am ready to have the judgment of the com- 
mittee. It was quite as good as the old lady’s statement to 
the Austin Farm doctor. 
Mr. Brown. M3' objection is that it is not in rebuttal. If 
the committee want to go in de novo into these charges, and let 
me have a chance to answer again for a series of days, that is 
one thing ; but if the committee don’t intend to do that I think 
we should shut the door now. He has met the issue, which is 
all that is required in rebuttal. He has denied the statement 
made by Mr. Nourse, as far as it appears from the record, and 
the letter, etc., and I submit that that is as far as 3rou should go. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care so much about this ; but I want 
it distinctly understood that anything that tends to contradict, 
the defence is rebuttal — or the defendant’s witnesses. I think 
if there is anything in the world undertaken to be proved here 
in defence — I might go back a moment. I didn’t undertake to 
put in, in presenting the evidence, the complaints made to other 
people. I didn’t believe it to be evidence then. But I was 
instructed b3' vote of the committee in the Quincy case that it 
was evidence. Now, then, if there is anything that has been 
attempted to be proved b3* the defence, it is that there were 110 
complaints, that no complaints have been made. There has 
been over and over again this question asked. Witnesses were 
summoned here. That very excellent woman, I should think, 
from Chardon Street Home — from her own description of 
herself—was asked if any of the people, when they came back 
there, ever made complaint. Then, that Chelsea woman, who 
could not remember the name of the man of influence who was 
the lather of Eya Bowen’s child, if you remember, — it was a 2700 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
man of great influence ; pretty near the governor ; and it turned 
out by the record to be some unheard-of artist that I have been 
in pursuit of, and now I hope to catch him,— she was asked: 
When these people came back, did they make an)' complaint? 
Never heard a complaint! It was a sweet place! She didn’t 
say that any of them wanted to go back that could help going 
back. That was the course of the defence. Now, I propose 
to rebut that, by showing that not only there were complaints 
to this gentleman, and that for this letter and this report this 
gentleman was violently abused without hearing him, but 
that there were complaints, and that he published them from 
time to time in one of the leading newspapers in this city, as 
they came to him. And then, not satisfied with that, he has 
already testified to you that he made a formal complaint to the 
governor, and he could not get anybody to hear him. Now, 
what was the use of having complaints? Here was a complaint 
made against Mrs. Paslio for throwing a pail of water on to a 
woman, and the outcome of that was that her wages were 
advanced,—because an insane woman was insolent; as if an 
insane woman could be insolent. Now, I propose to show, and 
it is a substantial part of this rebuttal, that there were com- 
plaints made over and over and over again ; not to go into 
whether they were truthful or false, because that we cannot 
investigate ; but simply to show that for a series of 3'ears this 
institution has been a stench in the nostrils of the community. 
Instead of fetching up this man and the other almshouse super- 
intendent, where they simply are in the condition of having the 
Marshes tell about them, I propose to take a man who is simply 
outside, and who did his duty, as I am satisfied, toward having 
the complaints investigated. 
The Chairman. It seems to me this must open the matter to 
meet this evidence on the other side. When shall we get 
through, Governor, if we go into this? 
Gov. Butler. How? 
The Chairman. It seems to me, if this is gone into, there 
must be an opportunity for the other side to meet it. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t object to that. 
The Chairman. Then there will be no end to the trial. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. Yes, there might be. The 
simple question is whether it meets the case. When these 
witnesses come here and swear that there was no complaint, 
that they never heard a word, am I not allowed to prove that 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2701 
the air was full of complaints, to show that they are not truth- 
ful? 
The Chairman. If I understand the evidence you put in — 
Gov. Butler. I put in no complaints. 
The Chairman. 1 understand you to have produced wit- 
nesses, a great many of them, who have said complaints were 
made. 
Gov. Butler. To them, in the institution. See the differ- 
ence. It is as plain as a pikestaff. To them, in the institu- 
tion, then and there, on the spot. And when they undertook 
to put on a doctor here who said he knew nothing about this in- 
stitution except what two old ladies told him—not only the fact 
that there were no complaints, but what they said about the in- 
stitution was, against my earnest protest, admitted. And the 
woman from the Chardon Street Home, and this North Chelsea 
missionary woman, and three or four more—two is as good as a 
dozen—the}' were allowed to state what was said in other places, 
that the people at Tewksbury came away satisfied. Now, shall 
I contradict them or shall I not? If you say I shall not, it is just 
as well; if you say I shall, I will do it. 
Mr. Brown. It seems to me this is a fair statement of the 
position: if His Excellency can find some of these women with 
whom Mrs. Pearson talked, or if His Excellency proposes to 
show that the doctor out at the Austin Farm, who came in here 
and said what old women had said to him, who had been at 
Tewksbury, that he didn’t come in here and tell the truth, that 
is rebuttal. But to bring in another man, who don’t know any- 
thing about the cases cited by the defence, to say that there 
were complaints made to him ; to bring in a man who knows 
nothing about it—he don’t pretend to know ; he simply offers to 
introduce new matter and new material entirely, for the purpose 
of showing what? Why, simply, at the very time when these 
witnesses that I have produced say they didn’t hear any com- 
plaints, there were complaints made by other people to other 
people. Well, that was a part of his case in chief, if he has 
any knowledge whatever. And the general broad proposition 
stated by him, that anything that tends to contradict the de- 
fence is rebuttal, is a proposition I don’t think ever occurred to 
anybody before this. I certainly never heard of it, and I have 
heard a good deal of discussion on the subject of what is proper 
and fair in rebuttal. And I say that, if this matter is gone 
jnto, it will be very wrong, certainly, not to allow — either for 2702 
CHAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the legislature or for the committee—not to allow the defence 
to meet it. And I hope, as this is an investigation which was 
not started by His Excellency and which Ilis Excellency seems 
to desire to disown, that we may be able to stop somewhere. 
The Chairman. I will submit the question to the committee 
whether the question shall be answered. 
[The question was rejected ; two for, three against.] 
Q. AYell, did you make publications of matters that you 
deemed wrong at Tewksbury? 
Mr. Brown. I object to the question. 
The Chairman. It seems to me that is on the same ground. 
I will put it to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me; that is not upon the same 
ground; not the rightfulness or truthfulness of the complaint, 
but whether the complaint was made. 
The Chairman. That would be new entirely. 
Gov. Butler. Well, in that view there is no rebuttal but 
what will be new ; because if you had it before }rou would not 
have it now. I am not going to put in old things in rebuttal. 
The Chairman. I will put the question to the committee. 
Mr. Learnard. I would like to hear the question. 
Gov. Butler. The question is whether he, from time to 
time, published complaints in a leading newspaper in Boston, 
against the treatment of people in the almshouse, to be followed 
by the question whether he could ever get a hearing upon those. 
Mr. Brown. To that I object. 
[The question was rejected, 2 to 3.] 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think I want to trouble you with any- 
thing more. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Where was it you were employed when you were dis- 
charged the thirtieth of June ; down here in this custom house? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Why were you discharged? A. On an order from 
Washington that discharged eighteen oflicers. 
Q. And you were selected as one of the eighteen ? A. 1 
was selected in this way : I was on the list to be retained, and 
I rested on my laurels and made no effort to secure my position ; 
others did. 
Q. That is, you were discharged because you were on the 
list to be retained; is that it ? A. I am telling you how I 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2703 
made no effort. If you understand how these offices are got, 
and how the}7 are kept — 
Q. No, I don’t, and I don’t want to. A. Very well; I 
was trying to show you how. I thought 1 was safe ; I used no 
influence; I thought I knew Collector Worthington; I have 
wrote many a letter for his paper, and I am under oath, now, 
and I have praised him at the seat of war, and this was the 
thanks I got for it, to be turned out. Although my name was 
sent in, probabl}7 two or three months ago, to be retained, and 
the order was issued about two months ago. 
Q. Let us see; }7ou went in there when? A. I went in 
there on the fifth of February, 1881. 
Q. Who was the collector then? A. Mr. Beard. 
Q. And then you were there before that when ? A. I was 
there from Februaiy 5 or 7tli, 1862, till April, 1867. 
Q. And you were discharged then? A. Yes, sir; I was. 
Q. To make a place, as the record says, for a one-armed 
soldier. A. As I sa}7, here is Mr. Hooper’s letter. 
Q. But you think it was for something else. A. I can 
show }rou the cop}' of a letter which Gov. Andrew wrote to his 
messenger, which shows you the workings of politics, which you 
say you don’t know anything about. 
Q. Now, tell me, —there are two places you have been at; 
two places you have been at, where you have been discharged? 
A. Yes ; I admit it. 
Q. Now, won’t you be kind enough to tell us some place 
where you have worked where you haven’t been discharged ? 
A. Is there any other like oflice — there you commit yourself 
again — in this country? 
Q. Wherever you have been you have been discharged? 
Gov. Butler. That is not his testimony. 
Mr. Brown. I want to ask him whether that is the fact. 
The Witness. I have told you. 
Q. That is a fact, is it? A. It is a fact; yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do you mean to say you were dis- 
charged from Tewksbury, or was it a simple catch? A. That 
is all a lie. I was not discharged from Tewksbury. I was 
leaving every month, and Captain Marsh said, “ Mr. O’Kane, 
the officers are jealous of you because you go down to Boston 
so often.” 
Q. (By Mr. Learnard.) When was your attention first 2704 
CHARITABLE institutions. 
[Apt*. 
called to this matter under investigation? A. Well, it was 
incidentally. I happened to call into the room of a gentleman 
who told me that such occurred in this room, and I was indig- 
nant enough to scalp that villain that told such lies here to this 
committee ; I don’t know who he is. 
Mr. Brown. It is very wise y7ou should not, showing that 
temper. 
The Witness. Oh, there is no temper but what I can re- 
strain. 
The Chairman. Governor, can you put in anything more to- 
day?. 
Gov. Butler. I have nothing further to-day, sir. 
The Chairman. Couldn’t you come in at two o’clock ? 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Chairman. Couldn’t you go on at two ? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no, sir; I could not go on with my case, 
because Brother Brown will say he told me he would give me a 
day’s notice, you know. 
Mr. Brown. I expected you would examine Mr. Marsh, and 
that is what has upset my plan. 
The Chairman. I hope you will be prepared to go on Mon- 
day. 
Gov. Butler. I will be prepared to go right on. 
The Chairman. I think the committee will give y7ou two 
hearings a day, and try7 to give all the time we can. 
Gov. Butler. I will be ready7 to go on. 
The Chairman. Adjourn to Monday7, at half-past nine. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2705 
FIFTY-SIXTH HEARING. 
Monday, July 9. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a. ml, Senator 
Loking of Worcester in the chair. 
The Chairman. We are ready to proceed. 
Gov. Butler. I left off with Mr. Nourse at the place 
where I wanted to deal with those books, and t — 
that direction. I am 
. cannot go on in 
. „um.eni to go on in some other directions 
...... adjourn the rest of the cross-examination, in order to save 
time, until we get them or find we cannot get them. 
The Chairman. Do you mean to let Mr. Nourse go and call 
some other witness or go on with him. 
Gov. Butler. I will go on with him, except that I will not 
finish. 
Mr. Nourse. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a state- 
ment. 
The Chairman. Make it, sir. 
Mr. Nourse. The papers make me say that the last time 
that I saw these memorandum books of Mr. Marsh was in De- 
cember I didn’t intend to say so, and I didn’t intend to be 
so understood. It was not the fact. 
The Chairman. I understood it was in March. 
Mr. Nourse. I didn’t say when I last saw them in my testi- 
mony at all, but the papers make me say that the last time that 
I saw them was in December. It is not true, and I did not 
mean to be so understood. What the stenographer has it, I 
don’t know. 2706 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
TESTIMONY FOR RESPONDENTS (Continued). 
Testimony of Francis H. Nourse (continued). 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler resumed. 
Q. Well, when did you see them, sir? We won’t have any 
difficulty about it ? A. When the report was submitted, in 
January, the books were submitted with it. 
Q. The books were submitted with the report in January? 
A. Yes, sir. From those books do you want to know what I 
did? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t want the contents of those books. 
The Witness. I would say that when the report was made 
I spent considerable time in checking off his report from the 
books. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we will go into all that by and by. 
Question is, now, when the books were there, in order 
fWi they were a part of the offi- 
Tfte uinj 
to show their existence, auu un- 
cial record. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Mr. Nourse, what has been your 
position on the Howell Railroad lately, say within the last five 01 
seven years? A. Purchasing agent. 
Q. Station agent where ? A. Purchasing agent. 
The Chairman. A little louder, Mr. Witness. 
Q. Purchasing agent. And have you had anything to do 
with the purchase of coal at Tewksbury ? A. es, sir ; I have 
— in connection with Capt. Marsh ; never alone. 
Q. Have you purchased all the coal? A. (.'apt. Marsh 
and m}Tself have usually been appointed a committee for that 
purpose. 
Q. Any other committee except you and Capt. Marsh? A. 
I think not. 
Q. How many years had that been the custom? A. Well, 
sir, I could not say; the records will show. 1 am not certain, 
but as many years as you have named. You asked trom five to 
seven years. 
Q. Well, longer than that? A. I think we have purchased 
longer than that, but the records will show. 
Q. Whenever the committee was appointed? A. Yes, 
sir; the records will show the appointment of the committee. 
Q. Was your coal purchased in bulk? Did you make an 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2707 
arrangement for all the coal that was wanted at any given time 
— at a given time during the jmar? A. We usually agreed 
upon the amount we should probably want and made that a 
basis for the purchase. 
Q. And made the purchase at a time when you supposed it 
would naturally be the cheapest? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And purchased a supply for the year? A. That was 
the intention. 
Q. Well, at any time did you ever make a new purchase to 
till out the year? A. Yes, sir. Sometimes it came short. 
The very last year that I bought, we bought 2,000 tons, what 
we supposed was required to carry us through the year; but we 
got short. 
Q. That 2,000 tons, did }tou purchase all one kind of coal? 
A. No, sir; we purchased stove coal and broken coal, or egg 
coal. 
Q. You bought some of all three sizes? A. Egg coal for 
the engine, and stove coal for the stove. 
Q. What we call egg coal and broken coal — was that what 
}Tou came short of? A. I think, sir, we came short of the 
stove coal, — cooking-stove. 
Q. That was last year. A. I think so. I am not certain 
which kind it was. 
Q. Has all the coal gone by the Lowell road? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Any difference from regular freight prices over either 
road ? A. The price is the same, only one is more convenient 
for delivery than the other. 
Q. I mean any difference in the price? A. For the differ- 
ent kinds of coal? 
Q. No. An}' difference between the regular freight prices on 
the Lowell road for the same thing to the same place? A. If 
l understand you, there was a special rate for coal. 
Q. I suppose there is a special rate for everybody’s coal? A, 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And that makes a general rate for coal. Now, was there 
ail}' difference between the general rate for coal on the Lowell 
road, and the Tewksbury coal? A. There are two stations at 
Tewksbur}’; one is Tewksbury Junction, and the other 
bury Ceotre. 
Q,. flqw far apart are they? A. About a mile apart. 2708 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, then, will you answer the question, Mr. Nourse? 
This is the third time. A. I will, if I understand you. 
Q. Understand me now, what I want. I repeat the question 
once more : Is there any difference in the price paid by the 
Tewksbury almshouse from the regular price of coal at the same 
distance on the Lowell road? A. There is a difference in price 
by the cargo, and all those having cargo rates at the same place 
would have them at the same rate. 
Q. Well, there wasn’t anybody else, was there? A. That 
I am not able to state. 
Q. Pardon me ; don’t you know whether there is anybody at 
Tewksbury that buys coal by the cargo? A. I know that is so. 
Q. Then there was not any cargo rate to Tewksbury except 
yours? Answer that question. Was there any cargo rate at 
Tewksbury except yours? A. I don’t know, sir, that there 
was ; I don’t know that there was any application for it. 
Q. Why, yes, you do know there was not an}' application. 
You know there is not anybody at Tewksbury that buys coal 
by the cargo, or was not, until Mr. Taylor came there? A. 
He is above there. 
Q. And that is on the other road? A. On both roads. 
Q. Was there any cargo rate? You and I know that there 
is not an}' cargo rate except where you are, because nobody 
wants it. Now, was there any difference in the cargo rate to 
Tewksbury than to any other place as far off? A. I don’t know 
as I quite understand you. 
Q. Oh, well, I will make it plain to the most common com- 
prehension. Here is Tewksbury, twenty-five miles off, we will 
say; and here is another place, on the road, twenty-five miles 
off. Now, is there any difference in the rate for Tewksbury than 
any other place? A. Do you mean on the branch, or on the 
main line? 
Q. On any line? A. Well, I am not able to say, only on 
the main line of the Boston and Lowell road ; I am not able to 
say. 
Q. Do you make different rates for coal delivered on the 
branch from what you do on the main line? A. Well, that 
opens up a question, Governor; that is a question of competi- 
tion. That is a matter I don’t feel competent to go into. 
Q. Pardon me. That opens up a question of competition? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q,. I want to know if there is a difference of rates on your 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2709 
own road. Your branches don’t compete with the main line, T 
trust. Is there any difference in the rate of coal carried on the 
main line and carried on the branch lines of the Lowell road? 
A. There used to be a difference, ! think, from Billerica. 
Q. I know about Billerica; I don’t care to go into that; that 
will be the subject of another investigation one of these days. 
We will find out who was at Billerica and what rates he got. 
That is another affair. Now answer the question— A. I 
will, if I understand it. 
Q. Let me see if you don’t understand it. Do you under- 
stand this? Is there any difference in the rate of coal carried the 
same distance over the Lowell road, whether it is carried all the 
wav on the main line or a part of the way on a branch? A. 
Governor, you will pardon me for not answering this question; 
it is not, as I have said before, within mv province to decide. 
Q. It is not in your province? A. No, sir. 
Q. I have not asked you whether it is in your province ; I 
ask you whether you know there is any' difference? A. I don’t 
know, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, didn’t you make the arrangement for the rates 
for the carriage of this coal? A. I did. 
Q. Well, sir, didn’t you know enough when making that 
arrangement to know what the prices were at other distances? 
A. Nothing except in Lowell — except Lowell prices. * 
Q. You knew what the Lowell price was? IIow far is 
Lowell — ? A. Six miles from Tewksbury Junction. 
Q. I know. How far is Lowell from Boston ? A. Twenty- 
six miles. 
Q. And how far is Tewksbury Junction from Boston? A. 
From Tewksbury Junction to Boston is about twenty miles. 
Q. How far is it to the State coal yards? A. Well, that is 
within twenty rods or thirty rods of the station ; perhaps forty 
rods. 
Q. Well, call it substantially twenty miles. Very well. Did 
you pay as much to Tewksbury as the rate was to Lowell? 
A. I am not certain, sir, about that. 
Q. You made this bargain for coal for the State here all 
these years? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know whether you paid as much or more for 
carrying this coal to Tewksbury as was paid for carrying coal 
to —? A. The regular rates — 
Q. Leave out, the regular rates, and stick to my question. 2710 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Do you know whether you paid as much for carding this coal to 
Tewksbury as was paid for carrying cargoes of coal of the 
same description to Lowell ? A. I think not, sir. I think the 
price was a little short. 
Q. Don’t you know whether it was or not? A. That is my 
impression. 
Q. Don’t you know? A. I would not like to swear, when 
the facts can be shown. 
Q. I understand it is difficult to swear when the fact can be 
shown, sometimes? Here you have been acting as trustee, 
acting for the State, and making bargains for this coal over 
your road all this time ; now, I should like to know whether 
you know whether you have got the same bargain for carrying 
it twenty miles, more or less, as if it was carried twenty-six 
miles? A. As 1 remember about it, the price was seventy 
cents to Tewksbury, and to Lowell seventy-five cents. That is 
what I recollect about it. 
Q. Will you swear that was so? A. 1 would not say, 
because I tell you I have no distinct recollection. 
Q. Now, in Lowell they have to deliver it over the local 
tracks in the city, don’t they? A. Well, sir, there is another 
point. This coal at Tewskbury has all to be unloaded on the 
main track. When that coal is sent out there, we send an en- 
gine to move the train and make way for other trains — move 
it back and forth. Of course it costs more than it would to 
send it to Lowell, and set it off on a corporation track, and 
never have anything more to do with it. 
Q. You don’t have to deliver at Tewksbury, do you? 
Tewksbury delivers its own coal? A. No ; we bu}'it on the 
cars at Boston, and then pay the freight. 
Q. I see; but you don’t have anything to do with the 
delivery? A. No, sir; the Tewksbury men shovel it off, or 
dump it, as the case may be. 
Q. Well, and all these 3rears that has not been of so much 
trouble to the Lowell road as for them to put in even a side- 
track to run the cars on? A. No, sir ; it has not been put in 
for that purpose. 
Q. You have one? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Why not run it on to the side-track? A. Well, the 
shed where they dump the coal is on the main track. 
Q. And where they shovel is on the side-track? A. No, 
sir. Some cars that are not dump-cars must be shovelled. 1883.]' 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2711 
Q. Now, do you make an extra allowance to the Lowell 
road for carriage on that account? A. The bargain was made 
that they should do it in that way. 
Q. I ask you whether you paid an extra price for carrying 
the coal in that way - for delivering the coal in that way, with 
the Toad ? A. I don’t say that we did. 
Q. Then, it you didn’t make any extra price, you took the 
regular rate, didn’t you ? A. The price for the transportation 
of the coal included the shifting back and forth, so that the cars 
might be unloaded. 
Q. Undoubtedly.. Generally it is done so? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, I am glad to see that you are so well acquainted 
with the way the coal business is conducted. A 1 am sir 
with that, particularly. 
Q. Now, then, have you ever been to the Boston & Maine 
for competing rates? A. I didn’t go, but Capt. Marsh did. 
H- Did you go with him ? A. No, sir. 
Q. And you don’t know that he went, except what he told 
you- A. The prices were the same. 
Q. Were you there when this coal shed - are there ant- 
coal sheds on the Boston & Maine at all, belonging to Tewks- 
bury? A. No, sir. 
+l°'0 when these coal sheds were made at 
Q. Were you -f.h thealnub- 
Tewksbury? A. T made the arrangement 
— while 1 was running the Salem & Lowell Railroad, at one 
time, 1 made arrangements for the shed, so we could dump the 
coal. 
Q. You were trustee of the almshouse, and you were then 
running the Salem & Lowell Railroad, which is a part of the 
Boston & Lowell — the same thing? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You, acting as trustee <>f the State, on one side, made 
arrangements with yourself as the man running the road, on the 
other side ; you didn’t have any difficulty in making that bargain 
did you? A. If you put it in that way, l would say that the 
railroad did all they could to accommodate the institution. As 
a railro. d man and as trustee, I thought I should take the best 
advantage, the best position. In one case, on the Boston & 
Maine Railroad, it had got to be all dumped over the railroad 
track. In this case, a portion is, and a portion is not. 
Q. Now, while making that bargain and doing the best you 
could for the institution, why didn’t you go and see what sort 2712 
(CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
of a bargain you could make with the Boston & Maine? A. 
Captain Marsh went. 
Q. Leave out Captain Marsh? A. I didn’t go. 
Q. J know you didn’t go. I ask 3'ou, when you were 
making the bargain for the best interest of the State, you made 
it with the Lowell Railroad. Why didn’t you go over and see 
wliat sort of a bargain you could make with the Boston & 
Maine? A. Because one of the committee went; that is why. 
Q. One of the committee; that is, Captain Marsh ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. You didn’t go? A. No, sir. 
Q. And so this method of delivering coal on the road where 
vou were purchasing agent, or were running a portion of it, 
has been going on now for ten or fifteen years? When was 
that branch built? A. I don’t remember when that shed was 
put in ; I cannot fix the time. 
Q. As many as ten years ago? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Fifteen? A. Well, 1 should think it might be. 
Q. Eighteen? A. No, sir; I should think not. 
Q. Well, somewhere about fifteen }'ears. And hasn’t there 
been a lower rate established at Lowell on the Boston & 
Maine since seven or eight years—since they got in their branch 
to Lowell? A. You are going into a matter that I am not 
competent to decide upon ; I simply know bv - 
aiL- _ —, mat is 
Q. Pardon me. Think of it a moment, Mr. Nourse; sub- 
sequently to that earlier arrangement, the Boston & Maine 
didn’t if T a & vld0Ver r°ad’g0t their coal*cars into Lowell,’ 
didntthey? A. Yes, sir. 
r Q‘ u N7;id°n’t y°“ kUOW’ When they Sot their cars into 
, ® , hether there was competition between the Lowell road 
and the Boston & Maine in regard to coal rates? A. I suppose 
I have the same information and knowledge that the general 
pubhc have. I understand so, but I have no certain knowledge 
(j. Very well; understanding so, why didn’t you, for The 
- ate, take advantage of these competing rates down to Tewks- 
ur\ • A. The price is the same over both roads to Tewks- 
bury. 
Q. How do you know? A. As I said-from a member of 
the committee. 
Q. But if the price was the same, was it the same after they 
got competition at Lowell? You paid Lowell rates. Under- 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2713 
stand where you are. You paid Lowell rates under your ar- 
rangement, because there was no competition to Lowell. The 
Boston & Lowell held the Lowrell & Salem, and they held the 
Lowell road, so there was no competition up to Lowell, and you 
paid Lowell rates. Afterwards the Boston & Maine got 
their tracks into competition in Lowmll and there was, as every- 
body knew, and as you, of all persons on earth, ought to have 
known, there was a lowering of prices, of rates ; and still your 
rates remained the same, didn’t they? A. No, sir; 1 went 
over to our agent and got our price for transportation of coal to 
Tewksbury. The price paid was less than formerly. We 
formerly paid more; I don’t remember the price. Mr. Benning- 
ton told me the price was the same by agreement over both 
roads. 
Q. lie told you the price was the same by agreement over 
both roads? A. That is all I remember inquiring about. 
Q. You didn’t inquire how it was to Lowell? A. I don’t 
think I did. I may have inquired the price to Lowell, but 1 
didn’t consider that it was my business. 
Q. You went on the agreement that the price was the same 
at Tewksbury. Did you get any drawback in any way ? A. 
No, sir ; the bills show exactly the amount paid. 
Q. Undoubtedly. You got no drawback, no consideration, 
nothing from anybody? A. No, sir. 
Q. Nowhere? A. No, sir. 
Q. What is the price of taking coal—the lowest price paid 
for taking coal to Billerica, which is just twenty miles? A. I 
could not tell you, sir. 
Q. Ever inquire? A. 1 may have done so, but it is not in 
my memory. 
Q. Don’t you know the rate for coal is cheaper to Billerica 
than it is to Tewksbury? A. I could not tell you, sir. 
Q. Won’t the books of your corporation show it? A. I 
cannot tell; I have nothing to do with those books. 
Q. Did you ever inquire the rate to Tewksbury—I mean, now, 
North Billerica, which is about 22 miles? Now, will you tell 
me whether coal has not been delivered at North Billerica, 22 
miles from Boston—a little short — at lower prices than it has 
been at Tewksbury ? A. I cannot answer your question. 
Q. Did you ever inquire? A. I don’t think I have. 
Q. Hasn’t it been done so for years, going away back to 
1878 and 1879? A. I am not able to tell, sir. 2714 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Why wouldn’t it have been a good thing to inquire? A. 
business is so large that it requires all my attention without 
going outside. 
Q. What business are you talking about now? A. My 
business as purchasing agent. 
Q. You say your business as purchasing agent is so large 
that it takes all your time without going outside, yet all this 
time you did continue, without pay, so far as appears by the 
books, to do the business of trustee in this institution, didn’t 
you? A. I said my business; that is included as part of my 
business, sir. 
Q. Then it being part of your business, why didn’t you 
inquire whether you were getting the lowest rates to Tewksbury? 
A. I believe I have told you, Governor, that by agreement — 
their agent told me the price was the same over either road. 
We could not go any further than that. Neither road could 
reduce the price. 
Q. You don’t understand me, sir. A. I cannot tell what 
the rate was to Newton or to. any other place. 
Q. I don’t ask it to Newton or any other place ; I am asking 
about a place on the Lowell road, 22 miles, from Boston. A. 
Well, sir, I cannot answer the question. 
Q. And you never inquired and cannot answer whether 
there has been for a series of years less freight paid there ? 
Very well; we will leave it there. Now, about another thing. 
Did you ever receive anything from Tewksbury? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. Nothing ever came into your house from Tewksbury? 
A. Nothing but what I have paid for. 
Q. Did you purchase things of Tewksbury? A. 1 did. 
Q. What? A. I did; some poultry. 
Q. Poultry. When? A. Well, several times. 
Q. IIow much? A. 1 could not say, sir, how much. 
Q. About how much? A. Well, it is impossible for me to 
tell. I estimated I had about in the neighborhood of twenty 
dollars’ worth. 
Q. When did you pay for it? A. Paid for it last March. 
Q. When was it delivered? A. Delivered at different times 
along. 
Q. IIow maiy'years before did the delivery begin? A. 1 
I have never received any presents whatever. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2715 
Q. I didn’t ask about presents. Please answer my question, 
Mr. Trustee. A. I have, sir. 
Q. You paid for it last March. Well, we have got $20 out 
of it. Credit it to the $9,000 that the investigation has cost. 
A. If you will pardon me,—I never received anything but what 
I considered myself under obligation to pay. I am telling you 
the truth. 
Q. I want to know when the first delivery was made of 
poultry which you paid for last March. A. I could not tell 
you. 
Q. In 1879? A. I could not tell you, sir. 
Q. In 1880? A. I could not say. 
Q. In 1881? A. 1 have told you before, I could not tell. 
Q. Pardon me. In 187G? A. I cannot fix the time, sir. 
Q. Well, then, what sudden spasm of accounting came upon 
you last March that you should pay for poultry delivered in 
1879? A. I will tell you, sir. There has been a package 
sent to me, and I told the parties I could not receive it. 
Q. When? A. I could not tell you when it was. I think 
it was the first time. 
Q. You told them you could not receive it? A. That I 
didn’t receive any presents. 
Q. Stop a moment. It was left there, was it not? — It was 
left there, was it not? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And it was poultry? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you ate it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well; and didn’t pay for it then? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, then, how many years ago was that? A. Was 
what? 
Q. That first package. A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Ten? A. I could not tell you. 
Q. Fifteen? A. I have told you, sir, I could not tell you. 
Q. Can you tell within ten years? A. I cannot tell you. 
Q. Now, then, you didn’t pay for that then. How soon 
after did another package come? A. Well, 1 think there some 
came in November. 
Q. This first was in November? A. Some of these were 
directed to Mrs. Nourse. 
Q. How? A. Some of them were directed to Mrs. Nourse. 
Q. They said : “ You cannot prevent my sending them to 
your wife.” And you paid for the presents she received? 
Pardon me. In the first place, the package came to you, and 2716 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
you could not receive it. But the rest of them came directed to 
Mrs. Nourse? A. I presume not, all of them. 
Q. Well, but some of them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, have }Tou paid for what came directed to her? A. 
I paid what I supposed covered all. 
Q. Now, then, is not this the thing? You have received 
poultoy, packages, year by year, for so many years you cannot 
tell how long; and last March you lumped it up and paid for 
it, did you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What time last March? A. I don’t remember the time 
in March ; the early part, I think. 
Q. Then, if you lumped it up and paid for it, it ought to 
appear on the books? A. I think the books — 
Q. You were trustee — ? A. I think, if the entry was 
ever made on the books—I have not seen the books since. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Innis, won’t }'ou get the cash-book? 
Q. You paid in cash? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Innis, won’t you get the cash-book for 
last March ? 
The Witness. I think the clerk told me, when 1 paid him, 
that the books had gone to the State House. 
Q. Oh, yes ; well, that fixes the date I wanted. After this 
investigation commenced you paid for ten-year-old poultry ? 
A. I told you that I considered it a debt, and always did con- 
sider it a debt. 
Q. Always did consider it a debt, I know. Ever have any 
account of it? A. I didn’t keep any account of it. 
Q. Any account on the books kept of it? A. I don’t know 
that there was, sir. 
Q. You don’t know that there was? A. No, sir. 
Q. Don’t you know there was not? A. I didn’t see any. 
Q. It was your duty, as trustee, to examine the books? A. 
I didn’t see any record of it. 
Q. It was your duty to examine the books? A. I did. 
Q. And approve the accounts? A. I did. 
Q. You knew all the time they were not correctly kept, be- 
cause that debt against you was not there? A. 1 considered 
it a debt. 
Q. I am asking about that very point. You considered it as 
a debt. You knew you owed the institution, and yet the 
debt against you was not charged to y ou. The State property 
had gone out, which you had eaten, and it was not charged to 1883. 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2717 
you, and j’ou certified that the books were all correct all the 
same; that }tou had been doing for fifteen years, hadn’t you? 
A. You say so. 
Q. Don’t you say so? A. No, sir. 
Q. Will you say you have not? A. Fifteen years? I can- 
not say. 
Q. Ffteen years for aught you know. And last March, after 
this investigation commenced, you paid, you say, twenty dol- 
lars. How did you get at it? A. I had not left the institu- 
tion, sir, and before I left it I intended to pay. 
Q. Pardon me — A. I told my family I should not ac- 
cept of it at all. 
Q. I know you told your family you would not have it, but 
you did? A. I didn’t have it except under obligation. 
Q. Yes; a debt? A. Yes, sir ; a debt. 
Q. When \’ou paid for it, how did you get at the amount? 
A. I estimated it as well as I could. 
Q. Then you must have known how many years? A. I 
could not tell how much they weighed. 
Q. I f you didn’t know how many years you were to pay for, 
how did you know what to pay? A. Well, sir, b was an 
estimate. 
Q. Who made the estimate? A. I did. I talked with my 
family about it. 
Q. Did anybody else make an estimate but you and your 
family? A. Not that I know of. 
Q. Now, 3’ou went and paid Captain or Charles? A. I 
paid the money to Charles. 
Q. Did you have anything to say to the Captain about it? 
A. No, sir ; I don’t think I exchanged a word with him. 
Q. Then you went to Charles and told him that for an un- 
known number of years you had had an unknown number of 
pounds of poultry, and you wanted to pay a lump sum for that, 
did you? A. I told him I thought I had had about that 
amount, and I gave him the money and told him to credit it to 
the State. 
Q. Now, the books didn’t come down here until sometime 
the first of April, and this could not have been in March. A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. What time in March? A. Yes, sir; I was told so. 
Q. He told you the books had gone down here? A. He 
didn’t tell me so until afterwards. 2718 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Mow long afterwards? A. I could not say. I asked 
him if the amount or the money was credited, and he said it 
was. 
Q. You could not see it, because the books had gone down? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well. Now, then, if it was credited before, we 
shall find it. If it was not, we shall know it was not. We can 
fix that date all right. Will you swear that this method of de- 
livering poultry has not been going on for twenty years? A. 
I have no idea that it has. Never, so far as I have any know- 
ledge. 
Q. You have been there how man}' years as trustee or in- 
spector, or whatever it might be? A. About twenty years. 
Q. Now, will you swear that upon the Thanksgiving Da}’ next 
after your appointment there was not a quantity of poultry sent 
to you from Tewksbury? A. I will swear so. 
Q. What? A. There was not. 
Q. Within two years? A. No. sir; not within two years. 
Q. Within three? A. I could not tell the time; I think 
not. 
Q. Well, within four? A. I said before I could not tell 
Gov. Butler, Then, we will leave it for sixteen. 
The Witness. I am not willing to state. 
Gov. Butler. [Referring to the cash-book.] This is one of 
the misfortunes of not posting the books. This book is only 
posted up to February 2, if I get it right. There was a good 
deal done on February 2nd, but there was not anything of this 
kind under February 2nd because all the cash received was 
from Thomas J. Marsh, for salaries, etc. And that balance? 
February 2nd, is the last time of posting, and this is the last 
book we have got. 
The Witness. The clerk is here ; you can ask him. 
Gov. Butler. Sometime I shall, if I get a chance at him. 
Q. Now, that book he lias made this in evidently was not 
sent here, because it is not in the book sent here. A. I have 
not seen it on the books at all. 
Q. Whatever he has told you about it, if he has told you it 
was on the books sent here, lie simply told you a lie ; because it 
is not on the books sent here. A. 1 think the books were sent 
here before I paid it. They were sent here several times. 
Q I know they were ; but they didn’t begin to be sent here 
until after the first of April, if I remember. I guess you will 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2719 
find the date is wrong, or tlie.re is a mistake in the entry — one 
or the other. I think we began on the 30th of March, didn’t 
we, Mr. Brown? Now, don’t you know whether it was after 
this investigation began? Because that is a memorable event in 
your life. A. 1 can show 3’ou the receipt, if you wish. 
Gov. Butler. Let us see the receipt. 
The Witness. I think I have it here. [Producing a re- 
ceipt.] 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] “ 20.00. Received of F. II. 
Nourse twenty dollars for articles sold from the State farm at 
the almshouse.” 
Q. This was the receipt for those deliveries for so mam- 
years past. A. That is the receipt. 
Q. This is the receipt I have been talking about? A. Yes, 
sir. I thought I was not wrong in my dates. 
Q. No ; you might not be wrong, but you made yourself 
wrong by what was told you. A. No, sir ; I don’t consider I 
made myself wrong. 
Q. He told you the books had gone down on the 7th of 
March. Now, Mr. Nourse, had j’ou anything to do with pur- 
chasing anything else but coal? A. Well, I have been with 
the superintendent and Mr. Elliot several times when wre have 
bought articles. 
Q. Such as what? A. Well, a carriage. 
Q. What? A. When we have bought a carriage; and 
when we looked around for washing-machines, and several other 
important articles. I have frequently been with them; not 
merely as a committee, but in-consultation. 
Q. Now, Mr. Nourse, did you ever see Mr. Bernard O’Kane 
in your life? A. I don’t remember of seeing him. 
Q. Did you ever talk with him? A. I say I don’t remem- 
ber. 
Q. Whom did you ever speak to about Bernard O’Kane ? 
A. The information that I obtained when that report was 
written was from the officers of the institution. 
Q. Well, the institution didn’t talk? A. The officers, I 
said. 
Q. Which officers ? A. Capt. Marsh and Thomas J. Marsh, 
Jr. 
Q. Anybody else? A. Possibly; I don’t remember. They 
were the principal ones to give me any such information as I 
wished. 2720 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, sir, did you write that report with your own hand? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Who did? A. Mr. Safford wrote it. 
Q. Who? A. It is my report, but it was written by Mr. 
Safford. 
Q. By Mr. Safford? A. Yes, sir; our combined literary 
efforts together. He wrote it. 
Q. He wrote it, and you signed it? A. I considered it my 
report. 
Q. We are not upon that now. Now, then, without calling 
the man who made the complaints, Mr. Bernard O’Kane, you 
asked the men against whom lie complained, and took the state- 
ment that he was discharged for being intoxicated, and for 
being a slanderer, and all that, and put it into a public report 
without sending for him, or letting him know, or anything else? 
A. The best information we had we supposed to be that of 
these men. 
Q. The men of whom you asked were those of whom he 
complained? A. We had his complaint; that was their answer. 
Q. You had his complaint, and that was their answer? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And without asking him to substantiate his complaint 
you put their answer, that he was discharged for intoxication, 
into the report, without knowing one word about it, only talking 
with the accused ; and you thought that was justice, did you ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is your idea of an investigation. We 
have had some ideas just about like that. 
Mr. Brown. We have had men here charged with dereliction 
of duty who hadn’t been in the employ of the almshouse for 
seven }7ears. 
Gov. Butler. I am not discussing that now, sir. There is 
no occasion for interruption. 
Mr. Brown. You said something about the investigation, 
and I thought }tou meant — 
Gov. Butler. We haven’t made up our report, sir ; there is 
time enough to complain of what is in it. I am complaining of 
what there was in that report, showing what chance there was 
for an investigation when the man that makes the complaint 
against the almshouse to the trustees is never called upon to 
make good the complaint, but is put in the report as a drunkard 
and a discharged person, when the very person so reporting 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2721 
him gave him a letter of recommendation, and he went away 
voluntarily, as he swears. 
Q. Now, did you ask where was the evidence of his dis- 
charge? A. A letter of recommendation? I have not seen 
anything of that kind, sir. 
Q. 1 know 30U didn’t see it; but you didn’t ask him. A. 
If the man named gave that recommendation, he would not 
have been likely — the man that gave the letter was not very 
likely to go out and set up the man receiving it to be a drunk- 
ard and discharged person ; the man is not of that character at 
all. 
Q. How do }7ou know? When a man is accused 3*011 go and 
ask him, and if he tells 3rou that his accuser is a drunkard, 37ou 
put that into the report, and that is an investigation? A. A 
man I have known for twent3r years, and never have known a 
suggestion of dishonest3* or untruthfulness about, I place a 
good deal of confidence in. 
Q. I have no doubt, especially when he sends you poultry 
that you don’t keep an3* account of for fifteen ? A. He 
didn’t do it. 
Q. Who did? A. Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., — and he said he 
had a perfect right to send it. 
Q. When did he say that? A. At the time that I objected 
to receiving it. 
Q. He had a perfect right to send it. On what ground? A. 
I didn’t ask him, sir. 
Q. You doubted, and 3tou asked him? A. I told you, 
Governor, that I objected. 
Q. I know; 3tou objected to taking the cake, but still 3*011 
ate it? A. I acknowledged the debt. 
Q. Fifteen 3rears afterwards ? A. I did not sa3* that. 
Q. You would not say it was not? A. I have said repeat- 
edly, I would not say. 
Q. You would not sa3r, because 3*011 don’t know? A. No, 
sir ; I don’t. 
Q. Now, Mr. Nourse, 3*011 have been purchasing agent of 
the Lowell Railroad? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Uo 37ou deal with the Lowell Railroad in that wa3* — let 
accounts stand ten or fifteen 3*ears without having anything on 
the books? A. No, sir ; I do not. 
Q. Would 3*011 think it was an honest wa3* of dealing? A. 2722 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
I should not do so. In the first place, I would not accept any- 
thing. 
Q. Leave out the acceptance, now, sir; I am taking it on 
another ground. You are now purchasing agent, and this is not 
an acceptance. You send a man certain goods on the Lowell 
road, and you don’t keep them on any book—you don’t keep 
any account of them? A. Yes, we do; keep everything. 
Q. Oh, you do? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. I am supposing you would not. A. We verify the 
accounts. 
Q. Now, then, would you think that an honest way of deal- 
ing? A. Well, in one case I receive and in the other I charge 
off; that would be an entirely different thing. 
Q. Would you think it would be an honest way of dealing if 
you did it for the road? I don’t say that you do. A. I would 
not do so, sir. 
Q. Because it would not be honest? A. In my account. 
Q. Very well, if it would not be honest for you in that 
case — A. I don’t admit the question of honesty at all. 
Q. But I want you, now, to say whether you would think it 
was an honest way of dealing with the property of the Lowell 
Railroad for you to send it to men, year after year, and keep no 
account of it, and leave it to depend upon the question whether 
you die or live, or somebody else dies or lives, whether they get 
their pa}’? A. That depends upon the other end and not at this 
end. The party sending it is the one to keep the record. 
Q. I m asking you, would you think of sending the prop- 
erty of the Lowell Railroad out to A, B and C and keeping no 
account of it for a long period of years, trusting to their honor 
and honesty to pa}' for it when they got ready, — would you 
think it was an honest way of dealing with the property of the 
railroad? A. 1 don’t do so. We send out and take a receipt 
back. 
Q. I don’t ask if you do so ; I ask if anybody should do so 
in your place, you would think that an honest way of keeping 
an account? A. I don’t think the supposition has anything to 
do witii it. 
Q. I ask you whether such a course of dealing — whether 
that is an honest way of dealing? A. I will tell you my way. 
Q. 1 ask you,if you think such a way is an honest way of 
dealing? A. 1 think the party sending it should keep an ac- 
count. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2723 
Q. Why didn’t you, as trustee of the almshouse, require this 
honest man, whose word you always took, to keep an account 
as you always kept an account? A. Didn’t I tell you that 
they came from the other party. 
Q. What other party? You mean Thomas J. Marsh, Jr.? A. 
Yes, sir. I never exchanged a word with Captain Marsh about 
it—don’t think [ ever did. 
Q. Then you think him honest because you think he didn’t 
know anything about it? A. I didn’t sa}’ so. 
Q. Will you say so? A. That is not the reason why I 
think so. 
Q. In this transaction you think he was honest because he 
didn’t know anything about it? A. There is no question of 
honesty about it if he didn’t know. 
Q. I know—if he didn’t. And the reason why there is no 
question of honesty about it is because he didn’t know? Then 
the fellow that did send it is the dishonest rascal, isn’t he? A. 
He said he had a perfect right to do what he did. 
Q. With the State’s property ? A. I don’t know whether 
it was the State’s property or not. 
Q. Is there any question whether the superintendent had the 
right to sell property ? A. lie had the right to sell those things 
not required for use by the institution. 
Q. Needless surplus? A. He sells flour barrels when there 
is a surplus not required by the institution. He sold pork some- 
times ; but he never sold that without consulting the trustees. 
Q. Why not be allowed to sell pork without consulting the 
trustees, and }’et be allowed to sell turke}rs and chickens to the 
trustees and not consult them? A. I don’t know that }’ou can 
connect the two. 
Q. Why not? To sell pork requires consultation with the 
trustees ; why should not the selling of turkeys and chickens, 
which might be quite as valuable, require consultation with the 
trustees? A. I was talking about the superintendent. 
Q. I am talking about either man. You sajr the man who 
sent you the chickens told you that he had the right to send 
them. You were his master and you knew — A. I didn’t 
know where the property came from and didn’t inquire. 
Q. That is your answer? He says now he don’t know where 
the property came from and didn’t inquire? A. I didn’t, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, for a series of years you received this property 2724 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
without knowing where it came from ? Answer that question. 
A. I decline to answer unless I can explain. 
Q. Pardon me. You now swear that 3Tou didn’t know where 
the property came from for a series of years? A. 1 knew that 
it came from the almshouse, but whose property it was I didn’t 
know. 
Q. Whose property? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well. Did you ever ask whose property it was? 
A. No, sir ; that was the answer given to me. 
Q. That he had a right to send them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. If you supposed it was his why didn’t you go and pay 
him? A. Because I didn’t like the idea of it at all. I didn’t 
like the idea of receiving that property, and paid for it. 
Q. I know you did pay for it. If you thought it was Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr., and he having claimed the right to send it to you, 
why didn’t you go and pay him? A. Because I had to do with 
the institution. 
Q. I know ; but you didn’t have to go and pay a debt that 
you had owed all these years to Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., to the 
institution, did you? A. I paid it as I said. 
Q. Who used to bring them; French Joe? A. Well, sir, 
I am not able to say who did. I didn’t receive it from an3' party 
myself. 
Q. It was left there when3011 were not there? A. It would 
come directed to me at Winchester. 
Q. Come b3r express I suppose? A. Sometimes directed 
to me and sometimes to Mrs. Nourse. 
Q. Frequently? A. I said no. 
Q. At least once a 3rear ? A. Once a 3'ear when the3’ did 
send. 
Q. Will 3rou now swear that since the first package came 
there has ever been a 3'ear when it hasn’t come? A. I am not 
certain whether it has or not. 
Q. Hasn’t it come more than once a 3’ear ? A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never more than once a year? A. No, sir. 
Q. And the poultry was turkeys and chickens, was it not? 
A. Chickens. 
Q. No turkeys? A. No, sir. 
Q. An3'thing else but chickens ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Nothing ever came there but chickens? A. No, sir. 
Q. And you thought in an unknown time had got about 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2725 
twenty dollars’ worth and that you would pay it on the 7th of 
February? I don’t think I will have to trouble you any further. 
A. That is a very good joke. I said the 7th of March and 
you say the 7th of February. I wish you would quote my evi- 
dence as I give it. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I did quote it a9 you gave it. 
The Witness. No. You said the 7th of February and I 
said the 7th of March. 
Gov. Butler. I very likely called the wrong month. 
The Witness. I wish 3-011 would quote me correctly. 
Gov. Butler. I will try, sir. Sometimes I call a word 
wrong. 
The Witness. I mean to tell you the truth. Ls that all, did 
you say ? 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir, unless Mr. Brown wants to 
say something. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. You say they came about Thanksgiving time? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Never at any other time in the year? A. No, sir. 
Q. You were asked early on your cross-examination about a 
report which Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., made to you—• A. Made 
to the inspectors or trustees. 
Q. In regard to bodies? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I have not gone into that. 
Mr. Brown. But 3rou demanded its production. And now I 
want to ask him a question. 
Gov. Butler. No ; stop a minute, I cannot have that played 
on me. That won’t do. This is it: I stopped my examina- 
tion as to bodies and as to all that, because I want the books 
before I go into that; and I simply went into other questions 
since that time, only Mr. Nourse wanted to correct a 
statement as he understood it from the newspapers, and 
I asked him when it was that he saw the books, and ex- 
pressly told the committee that I would not go into any question 
about the bodies until I got the books. And therefore I object 
to Mr. Brown’s now re-examining about the bodies, because he 
will have to do it over again after I get the books ; and re-ex- 
amination is only to correct something that has come out in the 
cross-examination. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I am very much amused at the 2726 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
want of recollection of His Excellency. I was examining Mr. 
Nourse in chief in regard to bodies, and he spoke of a certain 
report that Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., made to him. I didn’t have 
that repoi’t in my possession. The governor interrupted and 
demanded it, and I didn’t produce it, because I could not. I ex- 
pect that report here in a very few moments, and I want to put 
it in. 
Gov. Butler. The report is in. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon. 
Gov. Butler. The report copied into the trustees’ record. 
Mr. Brown. Now, you are talking about one thing and I 
about another. Excuse me, and I will make it plain. It was 
from that report of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., which Mr. Nourse 
and the other officers made the report, which was embodied in 
the trustees’ record. My question to Mr. Nourse, now, is simply 
whether he marked that report in ail}' way.— that is the question 
I was going to ask — whether he marked that report that Mr. 
Marsh made to him in writing, so that he could identify it; and 
there I purposed to stop. I expect it here in a very few mo- 
ments, and when it comes I will ask Mr. Nourse if he will 
identify it. I didn’t pursue the inquiry at the time. 
Gov. Butler. I have no objection to that. Wait until it 
comes, and then ask him. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) Mr. Nourse, I want to ask you one 
question. During the time you have been trustee of that insti- 
tution, has anybody, State official or otherwise, made any com- 
plaint in regard to the execution of the law relating to dead 
bodies? A. No, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) Did you receive anything other than 
poultry from Tewksbury ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Not a thing? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I failed to ask that question [the question by 
the chairman], because I waived everything about dead bodies. 
1 have an answer to that which I want to put in directly. 
Testimony of William H. Haskell {sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name? A. William II. Haskell. 
Q. William H. Haskell. Where do you live? A. Glou- 
cester. 
Q. Have you ever had to do — have you ever been overseer 
of the poor at Gloucester? A. Yes, sir. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2727 
Q. When, and how long? A. I was elected, sir, in 1867, 
and 1 have been overseer from that time to the present. 
Q. Did yon know a family by the name of Morey, in Glou- 
cester? A. I did, sir. 
Q. Did you know a woman Iry the name of Ellen Allen ? A. 
I saw her once, sir. 
Q. When was it? A. That was in December ; I think the 
26th, sir, of 1876. 
Q. Where was she when you saw her? A. It was at — 
this Mr. Morey called her his sister, or his wife’s sister — at 
his house, on Park Street. 
Q. Do you know a young man in Gloucester by the name 
of Richard Morey? A. Well, sir, I have seen him once. 
Q. Whether he was the son of Mr. Morey that called upon 
}rou, and lived in the family? A. Yes, sir ; I suppose I have 
seen him often, but didn’t know him. 
Q. Well, now, what was the occasion of your seeing Ellen 
Allen at this time in December that you have spoken of? A. 
Her brother called upon me. 
Q. That is, Mr. Morey? A. Yes, sir. He called upon 
me at the office, and wanted some help or aid for his sister. 
Gov. Butler. Well, one moment; I think we cannot have 
conversation with the brother. 
Mr. Brown. My dear Governor we had the conversation be- 
tween these two people, both of whom are dead, detailed to us 
b}r Richard Morey, and I don’t know why I shouldn’t go into it. 
Mr. Learnard. What is the question? 
Gov, Butler. The question is, what Mr. Morey said down 
at Mr. Haskell’s. What I put in was what was said in the 
presence of the party about some money which was counted ; 
and I said that that was an act. 
The Cpairman. It distinctly appeared that there was no 
party present. After she had gone to bed the money was 
counted down stairs. 
Gov. Butler. The ground I put it on was a thing done. 
But now I object to what a third party says, wholly without any 
reference to what was going on, which is material here in the 
absence of the party to be affected by it. 
Mr. Brown. The party to be affected is the clerk of this in- 
stitution, and there never was any pretence that he was there. 
Gov. Butler. The party to be affected by it is the dead 
woman, as to her condition. She was not there ; if she had 2728 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
been there, I should not have any objection ; but simply to put 
in what a man said to another part}' is going farther than we 
have gone yet in the investigation. 
The Chairman. I didn’t think the other was competent, and 
I think this is just as competent. I will submit it to the com- 
mittee. 
Mr. Brown. I would like to say a single word, which is this : 
Ilis Excellency charges this young man, Charles B. Marsh, with 
embezzling the money of the inmates of this institution — that 
is the charge — under the general head of mismanagement of 
this institution. To prove that charge in the case of Ellen Allen, 
who was dead, they bring this Richard Morey, this boy, who 
says that he heard a conversation between the parties, who are 
now dead, all of them, on the night before his father took 
Ellen Allen to Tewksbury. I objected to it at the time, but the 
committee let it in. Now, if the committee want to take the 
position that that is not evidence, and I shall not meet it, I 
would be very7 happy to have it. 
Gov. Butler. Again the rule has been violated, and again 
I have to address the committee. We charge Mr. Marsh with 
having taken a certain sum of money, because we find in the 
book the place where it has been altered — 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon ; not in this case. 
Gov. Butler. And to show that a part of the money that 
the woman had only was entered. Now, to show that the 
woman had money, we put in the fact that she was going 
there, and that the money was counted, and what was said 
about it at that time. Now, then, his proposition is to rebut 
that evidence by showing what somebody else said somewhere 
else about it, if it goes as far as that. Suppose Mr. MoTey had 
said she hadn’t a dollar — which won’t be the case, I guess — 
does that tend to prove the contrary' at all, in any7 way, that she 
hadn’t ? Is it any evidence ; has it any tendency7 ? I think I could 
understand this matter. Mr. Morey was a pretty7 thrifty7, close 
man, and his wife’s sister was living upon him, and living 
pretty7 closely ; and he thought if he could shift his burden upon 
the town it would be to his convenience. And she was put on 
to the State. Now, what he said to Mr. Haskell about it is 
wholly7 res inter alios. However, it is not of very7 much conse- 
quence ; we have spent more time over it than it is worth. 
[The committee voted to admit the testimony1.] 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2729 
Mr. Brown. Now, go on and state what took place. 
The Witness. I asked him various questions in regard to her 
claims, her legal settlement in the city, and found then, as the 
law was, she had none, — I supposed not. I wrote to the over- 
seers of Boston in regard to the matter, and they denied her 
claim there. Then I informed him that she would be a State 
case, and if he could not provide for her, and she could not pro- 
vide for herself, they must send her to Tewksbury. He kept her 
along until April 7, 1877, when we sent her away. He took 
her over to Tewksbury in a carriage. She was an invalid, and 
partially paralyzed. 
Q. Did you see her before she went? A. Yes, sir ; I saw 
her, and questioned her in regard to her settlement. 
Q. Did the city of Gloucester pay this man Morey for 
taking her over to Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How much? A. Five dollars. 
Q. He took her in a private carriage? A. Took her in a 
private carriage. Being an invalid, and partially paralyzed, I 
advised him to do that, because the fare from Gloucestei would 
be one dollar and twenty-five cents, and there would three fares, 
up and down, hack hire in Salem and hack hire probably in 
Gloucester, and it would amount to about five dollars. He in- 
formed me afterwards that he expended five dollars for a car- 
riage. 
Q. And he drew that money from you, or from the town, to 
pay for taking her there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, did you ever hear from Ellen Allen? You had a 
conversation with her? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. About her settlement. 
Q. Did you have conversation with Ellen Allen? A. Cer- 
tainly, sir. 
Q. What did she say to you about her means? A. She 
said to me, in regard to her settlement: I was born in Ireland; 
I have lived in Boston seven or eight years, and then I was 
married in 1856, and resided in Boston, as I said, altogether, 
seven or eight years. Then they removed to California, and 
were there five or six j'ears. Her husband died in California, 
and she returned back to Boston, and lived there four years, 
and came to Gloucester, and had been with her brother two 
years and a half. Those facts I got from her. Then, as the 
law was, she had no settlement, because the law of 1874 did not 
apply, I believe, as a general thing, only to single women. In 2730 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
1879 that law was amended so as to apply to widows and mar- 
ried women. 
Q. Now, did you have any conversation with her in regard 
to her means, or her financial ability? A. She informed meat 
the time that, of course, she could not take care of herself, and 
she could not provide for herself. That was all, sir. 1 sup- 
posed the woman was making a statement that was correct and 
truthful. 
Q. Did she say anything about having any money? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Did Mr. Richard Morey or Mr. Morey say anything about 
it? A. After she died in Tewksbur}', he came tome and said 
he was going to Tewksbury to see about his sister’s effects. I 
asked him what she had, and he said some clothing and some 
jewelry ; and he informed me of this fact, if I understood him: 
that his sister had sent a fifty-dollar bill down the street to be 
exchanged, or to get some few articles before she left; and he 
informed me that, at that time, he didn’t know this. Before she 
left Gloucester he had heard that she had sent a fifty-dollar bill 
down the street to be exchanged by some }Toung woman or girl, 
—it might have been his own daughter, for aught 1 know. 
Q. Now7, is there anything else, Mr. Haskell, that you know 
about the case that you haven’t stated? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, lie told lie was going up there to try to get her 
effects, didn’t he? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he speak about dresses? A. He said there were 
some dresses, some jewelry, and a shawl. 
Q. And that she had a fifty-dollar bill, which she sent down 
to get changed the night before she went? A. Well, just be- 
fore she went. 
Q. Then, when he came back, he told you he couldn’t find 
anything? A. I asked him —I saw him on the street, —and 
said, “How did you succeed?” He said he didn’t get any- 
thing, but he had been advised to administer upon her estate. 
I asked him if he thought he would realize enough to pay the 
expense. That was all. 
Q. He could not get anything, and he would have to admin- 
ister ; it was some time after he came back, wasn’t it? A. A 
short time after, sir. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2731 
Q. Now, this woman, you say, was paralyzed'* A. Par- 
tially, sir. 
Q. So as to be substantially helpless? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He told you he was going up after her dresses, and after 
her jewelry, and after her money? A. Her effects, he said. 
Q. Effects, he said ; and then he spoke of dresses, jewelry 
and money? A. Y'es, sir. 
Mr. Brown. He didn’t speak of money. 
Q. And, then, he came back and said he didn’t get anything, 
and would have to administer, and you asked him whether he 
thought he would get enough to pay expenses ; and that is the 
last you knew of it, I suppose? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. ( By Mr. Brown.) Now, what was his answer when 
you asked him if he thought he would get enough to pay 
expenses; what was his answer to that? A. He said, “I 
don’t know how I shall come out.” 
Q. Now, when he said he was going up to get the effects, 
did he mention money? A. Did he say money? 
Gov. Butler. That is the time he talked about the $50 bill. 
The Witness. He then spoke about some articles of cloth- 
ing, I think a shawl and a dress or two, and a little jeweliy; 
and he says, “ I have heard, since she went, that she sent a 
$50 bill down the street to be changed, and to get a few articles 
with,” and that is all that he knew about it. 
Q. Now, did you understand from that that that $50 bill 
was sent down street while she was at Tewksbury or before she 
went there, and while she was there in his family ? A. That 
is what he testified, before. 
Q. While she was there in his family? A. Y’es. 
Gov. Butler. That is my impression, that it was sent by 
his daughter. 
Q. Do you know his daughter, Mrs. Munroe? A. No, sir. 
I know he has two daughters, one married. 
Q. Have you ever had any conversation with Mrs. Munroe, 
the daughter, about this matter? A. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Gov. Butler. That is all; much obliged to you, Mr. Haskell. 2732 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Francis B. Records {recalled). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. You have completed these sheets, have you? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Mr. Brown. I want to put in these sheets ; they are all made 
up the same way, — they were explained the other day, — 115 
sheets. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. I want to ask Mi-. Records a word or two about these. 
Mr. Records, these are the bills found in the auditor’s office? 
A. Yes, sir; the dates, and the names of the men from whom 
the goods were purchased, the amount, and, as near as I could 
describe, the purchase. 
Q. And all this appears, also, in the auditor’s report, — all 
the amounts? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then, all you have done for us is to give us what any- 
body could find from looking at the bills and the auditor’s 
report? A. Only that is itemized. 
Gov. Butler. And the reports are not; but the bills are 
itemized. 
Mr. Brown. The names of the parties don’t appear in the 
auditor’s report, do they ? 
Gov. Butler. The names of the parties would appear in the 
bills, of course. 
Mr. Brown. But they don’t appear in the auditor’s report. 
Gov. Butler. They don’t appear in the auditor’s report. 
Q. You have gone back to 1861 ? A. 1861. 
Q. Now, of course, the auditor’s report, after what we have 
beard, that the bills, in the first place, were sent down and then 
the money drawn, and then the bills paid and filed as vouchers, 
— a schedule of the bills sent down, and then the mone\T drawn 
and then the money paid, — of course the auditor’s report and 
these bills should and do exactly correspond? A. I haven’t got 
everything there, you will understand ; I have got no bills of 
food, stock, clothing, or attendants, — that is, help. 
Q. You have got neither salaries, food nor clothing, nor any 
expense except what kind of expense? A. 1 have got repairs, 
improvements, new buildings. 
Q. Oh ; then this is the outside account? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2733 
Q. Have you got the outside appropriations, sir, in here? 
A. Yes, sir ; and they are so marked. 
Q. Therefore, upon reading these tables we shall find the 
outside appropriations to meet these outside expenses? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir. I have no objection to their 
going in, except the expense of printing what will be substan- 
tially useless, so far as I can see. 
Mr. Brown. I am not particular about having it printed. 
Gov.' Butler. Well, I don’t think it need be printed; I 
don’t think it will do any good. 
Mr. Brown. I think if Mr. Records will bind it up in form 
and mark it, I will be perfectly content without its being 
printed. 
Gov. Butler. It would make a large and very expensive 
piece of printing,, as all tables arc. 
The Chairman. It seems to me it would be sufficient to have 
it put iu and marked. 
Mr. Brown. I shall be perfectly content. 
The Chairman. Let it be done so. 
Mr. Brown. Then, Mr. Records, if 3'ou will arrange these 
sheets so you can bind them together, and then hand them to 
the chairman of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Certify them. 
Mr. Brown. Certify on the last sheet how many sheets there 
are, and that you have identified them, and put your initials 
upon them. 
Gov. Butler. And then put on the first page your testimony 
as it is taken down, or write it. 
Testimony of Francis H. Nourse {recalled). 
Q. Now, Mr. Nourse, I want to ask you a question. ' Will 
you.be kind enough to look at that paper [handing paper to 
witness] and see if that is the report which Mr. Thomas J. 
Marsh made to you or to your board? A. Yes, sir ; it is. 
Mr. Brown. I won’t put this in yet; I want to see if I have 
got all the sheets first. 
Gov. Butler. That is the difficulty ; liovv a man can tell 
this is all the report when it is in loose sheets. 
Mr. Brown. It is all marked. 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 2734 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. I want to go into this marking; I don’t un- 
derstand this business. 
Q. These sheets, Mr. Nourse, did you mark them in some 
wajr so 3rou could identify them? A. I did. 
Q. And you find these sheets, each, marked? A. All of 
them. 
Mr. Brown. Now you ma3r hand them to the governor for 
his inspection. 
The Witness. A general mark on the last part. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Will you look at those and see if those were submitted? 
[Papers handed witness.] A. Those were not submitted at the 
same time. 
Q. Will you look at that. [Another paper handed wit- 
ness.] A. Those three were subsequent reports ; those three 
sheets. 
Q. Where is your mark ? A. The “ N ” on each sheet. 
Q. “ N” in the corner? A. Yes, sir ; and the full name, 
I think, put down on the recapitulation. 
Q. All you can say is this, that these are the sheets of that 
report; but where are the rest of them ? A. That is all that 
was submitted within the time. 
Q. How do you know? A. I saAT that is all; I checked 
those off. 
Q. Well, I know these are all you have checked off, but why 
might not there have been others? They are all loose. A. 
Well, sir, you look at the summing up ; the last part will show. 
Q. Yes ; we shall find that the summing up agrees. When 
did you put that “ N ” on there? A. At the meeting when 
the report was made, in January. 
Q. Sure about that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Had }rou ever seen these sheets before that? A. Be- 
fore that meeting ? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. What? A. No, sir; the record was that the report 
was received ; and I put my name on, so I should be sure of the 
report. 
Q. What? A. The record was that the report was re- 
ceived and it was ordered to be put on file. In order to recog- 
nize it I put my name on the last sheet. 
Q. On each sheet ? A. My name in full; on each sheet 
you willifind “ N.” 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2735 
Q. One, two, three, four, — and when was this received, in 
January? A. The date gives it, at the bottom, sir. 
Q. And this date was put on in January, sir? A. Put. on 
at this same da}r it was received. I can’t swear that every sheet 
is there, but if the summing up agrees with this summing up 
here, then they will all be there. 
Gov. Butler. You offer that, do you, Mr. Brown ? 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
Gov. Butler. I object. This was received from Thomas J. 
Marsh, wasn’t it? 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
The Witness. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. And is an account of what moneys he got for 
his connection with dead bodies? 
The Witness. Did you ask the question, sir? 
Q. Yes ; this is his statement of what amount he received for 
what he did with dead bodies? A. This is the report he made 
to us of the whole number of dead bodies, and the amount 
received for them, and the amount paid out. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Governor, will you let me ask one 
question. — whether this is in his handwriting. That ivliole 
thing is in his handwriting? A. I think it is, sir; it looks 
like it. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t ask you, now, sir, about what is in the 
report, because that will speak for itself. 
Mr. Brown. We won’t talk about that. I won’t try to put 
it in now ; I want to hear what you have to saj'. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. I won’t put it in if you object to it. 
The Chairman. I understood you offered that report. 
Mr. Brown. I do offer it, but I say I will not undertake to 
put in the contents, if he objects to it, till he has been heard. 
The Chairman. Exactly ; go ahead, then, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. That is very different. I simply said to the 
witness that we wanted to know if it is a report about dead 
bodies ; what is in it will speak for itself. Now, ma}' it please 
the committee, here is the difficulty : shall a man come here and 
defy the committee when they order him to produce the original 
books from which a statement made by him is taken, and which 
he has used to justify iiis action as a public officer, kept to 
justify his action as a public officer, and put in a report or a 
statement or whatever you may call it, —it don’t purport to be 2736 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
a report, — but whatever you may call it, — shall he be allowed 
so to defy the committee on the one hand and get the benefit of 
what he says is in those books on the other? I think not. I 
cannot conceive of it. 
The Chairman. This witness has not been notified to pro- 
duce any books. 
Gov. Butler. What, sir? 
The Chairman. This witness has not been notified to pro- 
duce any books. 
Gov. Butler. I am not talking about this witness, sir. 
The Chairman. The question is proposed to this witness. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; the question is not proposed ; there 
isn’t any question which concerns this witness at all. The 
question is whether a certain paper shall be put in in evidence. 
That paper is sworn to be a statement by Thomas J. Marsh of 
what he has done with dead bodies, and Thomas ,T. Marsh is 
the man I am dealing with, and the question is, Shall Thomas J. 
Marsh’s statement, made to that board of trustees, be put in to 
exonerate him, when he stands in contempt of the committee 
and the House in not producing the original books from which 
that statement was taken? Will you so far, so far, forget your 
own dignit}7 and your own position as to permit that? A wit- 
ness is brought into court who is a sworn officer. He has kept 
his public duties on certain books ; it becomes necessary to find 
out what is in those books and he is asked to produce them. 
He refuses ; he declines ; a peremptory order is made, by a unan- 
imous vote of the committee, that he shall produce them. 
The Chairman. By all who voted; there are some who 
didn’t vote. 
Mr. Brown. And there was one who voted no. 
Gov. Butler. Settle it among yourselves. If any of you 
want to back out; I don’t care about it. 
The Chairman. Seven voted in favor of it. 
Gov. Butler. .Just, as many as want to take back water, I 
am willing. Now, by a vote, — that is enough for me — 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Gov. Butler. By a vote of the committee it was solemnly 
decided he should. Now, the counsel of that same man comes 
forward and says, I won’t give you the original evidence ; but, to 
exonerate myself, I will put in my statement made to somebody 
else. Will you hear it? 
Mr. Bkown. Mr. Chairman, the governor’s position this 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2737 
morning is so amusing that I can’t help indulging in a little 
statement of fact. I produced this witness, Mr. Nourse, and I 
asked him about this body business in the direct examination ; 
that was done, you will recollect. And, in the course of that ex- 
amination, I asked him in regard to the report which was made 
to the board of health, lunacy and charity. To that report, 
embodied in that book, His Excellency objected. I then found 
an earlier entry, — that was the entry of March 23 ; the meeting 
of March 23 of the board of trustees, — I then found an earlier 
record, the record of a meeting of the 21st of January, and I 
found that at that meeting that report had been submitted ; that 
that report had been called for from Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., in 
answer to a call from the board of health, lunacy and charity, 
and that that report, having been received in January, was sub- 
sequently, at the March meeting, inserted, or, at least, em- 
bodied in the trustees’ report to the board of health, lunacy 
and charity. Now, we had a discussion in regard to the admis- 
sion of that record of the 23d of March, and also of the 
record of the 21st of January, and the committee admitted it. 
Then, when 1 came to ask Mr. Nourse how he made up that 
report which was addressed to the boai'd of health, lunacy and 
charity, he stated that Thoixias J. Marsh, Jr., made a report in 
writing to the board, which they took, and from which they 
made up their report to the board of health, lunacy and 
charity. Thereupon, His Excellency demanded that report. 
Well, I could not produce it, because I didn’t have it. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t demand that report at all. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; the record shows you de- 
manded that report, and you said I should not go on till it had 
been produced. The record shows it. 
Gov. Butler. Then it is the cussedest record that was ever 
made up. 
Mr. Brown. That may be; but it is the fact, neverthe- 
less. 
Gov. Butler. It is not the record. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I come in, in answer to that demand, and 
I offer to put upon the record the report which His Excellency 
demanded. Now, if he don’ want it, I want to say to him that 
it is the last time he will ever have a chance to get it. If it is 
declined, —if it is refused, — I shan’t press it; but I want the 
record to show that the thing he demanded, when I px-oduced it, 
he refused to take. That is all. 2738 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman,—I presume the committee un- 
derstands the situation about as well as Mr. Brown. Admitting 
that most of what lie says is true, T would have the committee 
reject this report,—this emasculated report — 
Mr. Brown. Excuse me ; I withdraw it. 
Mr. Mellen. Wait till I get through. 
Mr. Brown. No; I withdraw it now. 
Mr. Mellen. You haven’t got that privilege now; I am 
talking now, sir ; the gentleman utters another threat. It is not 
only His Excellency that is concerned here, but this committee, 
as the representatives of the legislature ; and, if he can offer at 
will, and can withdraw at will, matter that is of interest to this 
committee, why, it is about time we knew it. He says, if you 
take it now,—because it is not the governor alone who is con- 
cerned, but the committee, — we may have it; but if we do not 
take it now, we can never see it again. That is, in substance, 
what he says, as he talked the other day, when it was not this 
report which the governor demanded, but it was the report from 
which this report is made up. It is that memorandum book of 
Thomas J. Marsh’s the governor demanded, as the committee 
well understand. [Applause.] 
The Chairman. Mr. Doorkeeper, I identify one man as 
applauding, and you may put him out, unless the committee 
order otherwise. The man standing back there in the corner. 
We have passed orders enough in regard to this disturbance. 
[The man pointed out by the chairman was removed from the 
room.] 
Mr. Mellen. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is the status of this 
case, and that is the position of this counsel. It appears to me 
he is acting very much like one of his clients, in contempt of the 
committee. Now, sir, I move that this report, as he calls it, of 
Thomas J. Marsh’s, be placed in the hands of the chairman of 
this committee, and be held there till we have that book that 
Thomas J. Marsh made the report up from ; then it may come 
in, and should come in. [Applause.] 
The Chairman. We will clear this hall if this nuisance is 
kept up ; we will sit here in silence. Mr. Mellen will you state 
why, if you choose to, because Thomas J. Marsh refuses a cer- 
tain book, that the record of the trustees should also be re- 
jected ? 
Mr. Mel len. I have not made any such proposition. I ask 
that this particular document which is at issue now be put into 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2739 
the hands of the chairman. As I understand it, it is a report 
made by Thomas J. Marsh to the board of trustees from a book, 
—a memorandum book. He picked out such items as he saw 
fit; and, as that gentleman, in my opinion, and, it seems to me, 
in the opinion of the committee, is in contempt, I don’t think it 
should be entertained now ; but it should be held, for fear that 
the counsel may do as he threatens, and that if we do not accept 
it now, we may never see it again. I think that ought to be a 
sufficient reason for this committee to say, We will take it, and 
when we receive that book that Thomas J. Marsh holds, we will 
contrast it with that book, and then we can tell of what service 
it may be. 
The Chairman. Any other gentleman of the committee any- 
thing to say? 
Gov. Butler. I believe I am entitled to the reply, sir, and I 
have not had it. Now, upon this matter I desire to address 
myself, in the first place, to the question of the chairman, — if 
there is any reason why the records of the trustees about this 
matter should not be put in. As I remember it, and I am 
reasonably certain as a man can be that I am right, the records 
of the trustees have been put in. I have read from them on 
this table to the committee, and given you the numbers of the 
supposed dead bodies, being the only record upon that subject 
that I could find in the book ; both of us commented upon it. 
Now, then, there was a confusion of language here about reports 
and books. I asked to get the original books of his doings 
made by this public officer to this public board. The witness 
said there were such books, and that this man made a report, a 
statement, and that he examined the books in reference to that 
statement. Now, then, what have we got here in this little roll 
of paper? We have got nothing but the statement of Thomas 
J. Marsh, made with more or less correctness, from those 
original books, or made without reference to them, — that we 
don’t know. Now, he expressly refuses to allow the committee 
to have the means of verifying their correctness, and then he 
has the cool defiance to come in here and ask the committee to 
receive his statement, and the legislature to receive his state- 
ment, in exoneration, when he refuses to the committee and 
the legislature the means of verification of that statement. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; he don’t ask anything of 
the kind, or I don’t either ; I have withdrawn it. 
(joy, Bptlpr. Very well; then my mission is dope, so far 2740 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
as that is concerned. But the committee have a mission, and, if 
they will permit me, I will say a word upon that. If this is a 
part of the public records of the doings at Tewksbury, — on 
which ground the chairman considered it just now, and as it is 
claimed to be, and verified by the trustees, — this committee 
for more than four months have been, by their order, day by 
day, ordering to be put into their hands ; first into mine, and 
then afterwards into their own when ruy case was in, so that the 
books might all be open to the defence, — which was perfectly 
proper, and to which I made not the slightest objection; I 
offered to give up all the instruments of evidence which came into 
my hands, including the empty coffin, as you will remember, — 
the committee have been, day by day, at my request, over and 
over again ordering the books, papers, public papers, — for my 
last request, at least, was broad enough, — and the custodian, the 
clerk, has been swearing here over and over again, that all those 
were produced, — now, upon the most important part of this 
investigation, what has been done with the dead citizens of this 
Commonwealth, the dead denizens, if you please, of the Com- 
monwealth, the dead inhabitants of the Commonwealth, about 
which everywhere else the most careful records are required by 
law to be kept; and it was not supposed that any law would be 
needed to be made lest in an institution of the Commonwealth 
any wrongs would be done with them, and so we made no law 
against it any more than the Romans made a law against parri- 
cide, — the son killing the father, — they would not have a law 
which would presume that such a thing could happen, and, 
therefore, we had no law upon this case. Upon that matter the 
books have not yet been produced, the papers have not yet been 
produced, although they were included in the committee’s order ; 
and, now, a portion of these papers which we have asked for so 
many times, the report of one of the officers to the trustees, is 
found in the hands of counsel, and he coolly tells me that if I 
don’t take it when he is willing to give it to me, I shan’t have 
it ever. Who made him custodian of these records? Where 
does he get the power to take the public records of the Com- 
monwealth from the chief executive magistrate of the Common- 
wealth? [Applause.] 
The Chairman. I will have a detective force distributed 
around here, if necessary, if I can find any that are not engaged 
in the case, and see if we cannot have order. Mr. Doorkeeper, 
how many men have you got here with you? Mr. Inuis, I wisk 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2741 
you would lend a hand here in this matter, and see if we can 
keep order here. 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, there is a motion before the com- 
mittee, and I am content that this paper shall be put in the 
hands of the committee to await the action of the legislature as 
to whether we shall have the books, and, when we have the 
books, I shall want to compare this paper with them. But I 
was objecting, — and it is now withdrawn, so that ends it, — 
to this report being received in evidence till then. But I don’t 
mean to be threatened any longer ; because, if it has come to 
be in this Commonwealth when the agent of an understrapper 
of this government can defy the executive, the right of the ex- 
ecutive of the Commonwealth to have the records of his duty 
as a public officer in his report, I want to know it; and if 
there isn’t any law which will give me control of it, 1 will find 
some way to have a law passed by the legislature, for I believe 
there is virtue enough in it to do it. Why, was there ever such 
a spectacle on earth ! Here I am, doing my duty, as I suppose, 
— at any rate it is not for anybody else to question it but the 
legislature, — in endeavoring to get evidence before a committee 
of the legislature about the transactions of a public institution 
of the Commonwealth. And when I ask for a document that 
the committee has required to be produced over and over again, 
of a portion of the records of that institution, I am coolly told 
by the counsel of a late officer, Take it now, when I offer it to 
you ; you will never have it again. And the committee are 
told so, too, at the same time ; because we are both engaged in 
a public duty, with different ideas, perhaps, of how we should 
perform it; but we belong to the same government, we are 
charged with the same public duty, and we are responsible to those 
who have charged us for the way we execute it'and for the honor 
of the Commonwealth. I say such language should not be used 
to its executive, nor should such language be used to the com- 
mittee by anybody. I ask for a public report from a public 
officer. Why, if he carries it away, he steals it, and there will 
be another place to investigate that. Now, shall that be done? 
It is a question for you to decide. If 1 cannot have the in- 
struments of evidence it is no use for me to go on here, or you 
either. What shall we know about this? If here a little and 
there a little can be dealt out to us, just according as it is thought, 
by a trick or otherwise, will enable them to cover up these 
actions, what do yoq know, what do I know, what do any of us 2742 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
know, about these matters? And I have called your attention 
to it, in order that it may stand before you as it stands before 
my mind. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman — 
The Chairman. Here is the record, on page 2613 : 
“ Gov. Butler. All right. That is exactly as it should be, and 
that only proves that Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., made a report, which re- 
port we don’t see yet.” 
“ Mr. Brown. We are not allowed to see it.” 
“ Gov. Butler. “ Pardon me ; I want the report.” 
“ Mr. Brown. VVe are not allowed to see that, under the objection 
which Ilis Excellency takes, that nothing but the record is evidence.” 
“ Gov. Butler. I have said to the committee, over and over 
again, that reports would be evidence, made in the usual course ol 
business, but not what somebody says was the report. The diffi- 
culty is, they don’t produce the report, but they produce a letter in 
which somebody says something there was in that report. That is a 
plain distinction.” 
1 go further than Mr. Mellen. 1 think the report should 
be in the hands of the committee, and I don’t see that it is not 
competent evidence. We may wait a month, or two months, to 
ascertain that Thomas J. Marsh cannot be compelled to pro- 
duce a memorandum book ; and is the committee to be deprived 
of the record because another witness may, or may not, be in 
contempt ? 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, I will answer that. 
The Chairman. Very well. 
Mr. Mellen. I say that Mr. Thomas J. Marsh, through Ins 
counsel, should not be permitted, if this committee respects it- 
self, to smuggle in just so much of testimony" as may- be favor- 
able to him, and withhold that which may be detrimental. 
The Chairman. I don’t see any smuggling. 
Mr. Mellen. Well, sir, 1 conceive that it is nothing else. 
If this goes in, it should go in in its entirety, in its entity* 
And the report which the governor wanted was the memorandum 
book from which this document was made up. That was what 
Governor Butler wanted, and that was what the committee or- 
dered Thomas J. Marsh, or his counsel, to produce. 
The Chairman. Exactly. 
Mr. Mellen. That he has refused to produce. Now, I 
think it is the duty of the committee to emphatically- decline any 
testimony from that gentleman till he produces that book ; and, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2743 
surely, this is a bit of testimony which that gentleman, or the 
counsel, wishes to get in here. 
The Chairman. This is not a bit of testimony of Thomas J. 
Marsh, at all. 
Mr. Mellen. What else is it? 
The Chairman. It is an official report of the board of trus- 
tees of the state almshouse at Tewksbury. 
Mr. Mellen. It is a report to the board of trustees that 
Thomas J. Marsh made. 
The Chairman. I don’t care what the source is ; it is an 
official report of the trustees. The question is whether it shall 
be accepted. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, right there, do I understand 
you to say that this is a part of the report of the trustees? 
The Chairman. As I understand it, this is a report of the 
trustees. 
Mr. Mellen. You misunderstand it; because, as I under- 
stand it, the report of the trustees is in. This is a report that 
was sent to the trustees, from which they made up their report. 
The point I make is that that was only a partial report that 
Thomas J. Marsh gave them to make up their report from. If 
he gave the entire report, well and good, but he did not; and 
because it is a partial report, and he declines to give us the en- 
tire report, I say, then, don’t accept it, but permit this partial 
report to come in till we have the entire report. 
The Chairman. I understand this is the report of the trus- 
tees, including the figures made by Thomas J. Marsh. 
Mr. Murphy. It is a report from Thomas J. Marsh to the 
trustees. 
Mr. Brown. It is a part of the record of the trustees, and 
the record which has been read shows this report was received 
and placed on file ; and this gentleman, as a member of the 
board of trustees, has identified it as that paper which was re- 
ceived on the twenty-fifth of January and placed on file. I 
never had an}’ knowledge, till His Excellency called my atten- 
tion to that record at the hearing before the last, that that re- 
port had been received and made any part of the property of 
the trustees. I presented it here and said what T did with re- 
gard to it, because the record itself shows that while I -was 
making the direct examination of Mr. Nourse the governor de- 
manded it, and I produced it as quick as I could. Now he re- 
jects it. Now, I want the committee to tell me whether they CIIAlilTABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
2744 
consider that record a part of the public property and part of 
the records of this institution ; if they do, it is in, and I have 
the right to read it, the same as I had the right to read the regis- 
ter of inmates, and that is what I shall proceed to do. 
Mr. Murphy. 1 thought you had withdrawn it. 
Mr. Brown. I withdrew it from His Excellency; but I 
never withdraw anything from the committee which they say is 
public property, never. 
Mr. Micllen. I beg his pardon, Mr. Chairman ; he keeps 
from us that which we have already said we want. I want the 
gentleman to be consistent. 
Mr. Brown. I keep from you property which is not public 
property. 
Mr. Mkllen. We have determined by our vote that it was 
public property. If it was not public property we should not 
have ordered Mr. Thomas J. Marsh to bring it here. 
Mr. Brown. .1 should like to have that vote read which says 
it is the property of the institution. 
Mr. MellEn. It was put in all sorts r»f ways, and all sorts 
of phrases, so that there should be no misunderstanding, that it 
was this memorandum book from which this report was made 
up, and that presupposes it to be a part of the property of the 
Commonwealth. 
The Chairman. I think it should be received. 
Mr. Mellen. I made a motion, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Risteen. I hope this committee won’t go back on its 
self-respect so far as to receive that report till the original re- 
port of Thomas J. M arsh is in. I don’t think the committee 
will do such a thing. 
The Chairman. Then, if the original report is not to be re- 
ceived, the committee is to be sacrificed on account of the 
refusal of Thomas J. Marsh. 
Mr. Risteen. We already have the report of the trustees. 
Mr. Murphy. What is the use of having a report which we 
suppose is false, or have reason to suppose is false, because, if 
it was not, he would produce the book. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Brown gave me a piece of information 1 
didn’t know before, that when the order was passed that Mr. 
Thomas J. Marsh should produce this book one member of the 
committee voted no. 
Mr. Murphy. The chairman said two voted no. 
The Chairman. No ; I said seven voted yes. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2745 
Mr. Risteen. I think the vote was unanimous, and I hope 
the committee won’t go back on. the record, and allow this thing 
to be done. 
The Chairman. I don’t think the committee will sacrifice 
any self-respect. 
Mr. Brown. All I ask is this, that if this paper, which is re- 
ferred to in the record of January 25th, and placed on file, and 
is identified by this witness, — if the committee decide that is 
public property, then I understand it is in the case, and I put 
it in, and I hand it to the committee as their property, public 
property, part of the records of this institution, which the gov- 
ernor says he has been four months trying to get. That is all 
there is about it; I didn’t know it before the other day. 
Mr. Mellen. I suppose that this is one of the adroit 
methods of the counsel to make good his case as far as he can. 
Now, sir, I made a proposition a while ago, a motion, and it 
seems to me it is in the line of the duty of this committee to 
entertain it and approve of it, that this report of Thomas J. 
Marsh be placed in the hands of our chairman, and that it be 
held, and not considered till the balance of the report, or the 
memorandum book, is in the hands of our chairman. 
Mr. Murphy. And I second the motion, Mr. Chairman. I 
think it is a fair proposition, and I don’t see how the committee 
can, consistently, after the action in executive session not to 
hear any testimony from Thomas J. Marsh till those books were 
produced, —how the}’ can, consistently, receive this testimony, 
because it is nothing but testimony from him. 
The Chairman. It is a part of the record, as I understand 
it. 
Mr. Murphy. It is a part of the record of these books. 
The Chairman. Verified by the trustees and approved. 
Are the committee ready for the question ? 
Mr. Learnard. I move, as a substitute, that the report be 
received as testimony. 
The Chairman. You hear the motion of Mr. Learnard of the 
committee, that the report be received. 
Mr. Mellen. That is not really a substitute, because my 
motion does not debar it from being received as testimony. It 
is to be held as testimony, but not to be considered till we have 
the balance of the report, or the book from which it is made up. 
The Chairman. I think you take into view eternity as well 
as time. 2746 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Mr. Mellen. I don’t do anything of the kind ; I take into 
view that the House will sustain the committee and order 
the man who defies us to come before the committee with the 
books, and do it speedily. 
The Chairman. The question is a fair parliamentary ques- 
tion to substitute Mr. Learnard’s motion. 
Mr. Mellen. I won’t higgle about that. 
Mr. Murphy. It is parliamentary; there is no question 
about that part of it. 
[The motion to substitute Mr. Learnard’s motion was rejected, 
3 to 5.] 
The Chairman. The question now is on the motion of Mr. 
Mellen, that the paper be placed in the hands of the chairman 
to be held till the books are produced. 
Mr. Brown. I should like to ask a single question before 
that is put. 
Mr. Mei.len. I object to Mr. Brown’s asking questions now. 
He has been allowed to talk on this same point a number of 
times and I don’t think it is wise for us to procrastinate or per- 
mit him to. 
Mr. Brown. I only want to ask the question as to whether 
this record is public property ; because, if it is, I have no busi- 
ness to hold it. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman — 
Mr. Brown. And if it is not I have a right to hold it not- 
withstanding the vote of the committee. 
The Chairman. I think we will put it to vote. 
Mr. Murphy. Let Mr. Brown decide that question himself 
after we have voted. 
Mr. Brown. 1 will; I will. 
The Chairman. The committee understand the question now 
is that this paper be placed in the hands of the chairman of the 
committee to be held till the books are produced by Thomas J. 
Marsh. 
[The motion was carried, 6 to 2.] 
The Chairman. Let the paper be placed in the hands of the 
chairman. 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir ; I will do it. 
Gov. Butler. Let it be done. 
Mr. Brown. I suppose you never do anything till you can 
do it. There is no doubt but it will be done, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2747 
Mr. Murphy. Did I understand you to say it would be 
done ? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir ; it will be done. 
The Chairman. Have you anything further with Mr. Nourse? 
Gov. Butler. After that paper is in the hands of the com- 
mittee I may. 
The Chairman. Where is the paper, Mr. Nourse? 
Mr. Brown. I have the paper, sir, but I have sent it to my 
office, in the custody from whence it came, but I have sent for 
it now, and it will be here very soon. 
Gov. Butler. It may be changed before it gets back ; who 
knows. 
The Chairman. I didn’t understand what you said, Gov- 
ernor. 
Gov. Butler. I said it may be changed before it gets back. 
Mr. Brown You said you liked that thing done ; it may be 
agreeable to you. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) I understood }'Ou to say in your 
direct testimony, that you looked over the report, examined the 
memorandum books of Mr. Thomas J. Marsh in making up the 
report? A. I examined the report, and compared the report 
with his book. 
Q. With his book? A. Checked the books off in making 
up the report. 
Q. These books were small pass-books? A. Yes. 
Q. And you said there were four or five ? A. Memorandum 
books ; I should think somewhere from three to five ; I can’t 
say exactly. 
Mr. Mellen. Now, Mr. Chairman, I can’t conceive for the 
life of me why the counsel should send that document from this 
room while the question was pending as to the disposition of it. 
I don’t think that is a proper thing to do ; I think it is highly 
improper. 
Mr. Brown. I am very glad to take your opinion, sir. 
Gov. Butler. It is a part of the boy’s play that has been 
allowed to go on here. 
Mr. Mellen. Trifling. 
Gov. Butler. Trifling. 
The Chairman. There has been a good deal of trifling on 
both sides. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t ask your opinion on that, sir, 
Mr. Brown, Nor I didn’t ask yours, either. 2748 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. And I want you to understand I didn’t ask 
your opinion, either. 
Gov. Butler. All I want to say is I shall not submit to im- 
pertinence from the committee. 
The Chairman. You will have to. 
Gov. Butler. I know I shall have to, because I can’t stop 
your impertinence. 
The Chairman. The impertinence must not be all on one 
side. 
Gov. Butler. I said nothing, except to say that it was boy’s 
play for the committee to be trifled with. 
The Chairman. That is impertinence to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Why so, sir? 
The Chairman. I don’t care to argue the question. 
Gov. Butler. Boy’s play for the committee to allow the 
counsel, ivhile they are examining the question of the introduc- 
tion of a paper before them, to send it out of the room, so he 
cannot obey the order. 
The Chairman. I can’t argue the question. 
Gov. Butler. I know you can’t. 
The Chairman. If it is not brought here, that will be the 
end of it. If there is other testimony we will go on with 
it. 
Testimony of Charles B. Marsh {recalled). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Have you read the testimony of Mr. Fairbanks with 
regard to his examination of the book called the book of 
inmates’ cash? A. I have. 
Q. Have you got a memorandum of the criticisms which he 
has made upon the inmates’ cash-book? A. I have. 
Mr. Brown. If you have, please refer to it. 
The Chairman. AVliat page is that in the testimony? 
Mr. Brown. You will find the testimony in several places ; 
pages 766, 767, 904 to 992, 1050 to 1127, and 1153. 
Q. Now, in regard to the inmates’ cash, have you made a 
careful study of that subject, to see if there is any other way in 
which that book can be kept? A. I have; and I have tried 
to keep it in the most convenient way. 
Q. Have you consulted the experts called here by the 
governor—Mr. Fairbanks and Mr. Records? A. I have had 
some talk with Mr. Records about it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2749 
Q. What opinion has he given you, if an}', upon that sub- 
ject? 
Gov. Butler. I object. I don’t propose to have the opinion 
of experts put in here second-hand. 
Mr. Brown. I propose to show that the governor’s own 
witness says that this thing can’t be done in any better shape 
than it has been done. 
Gov. Butler. Then let him show it by the testimony of the 
expert. 
Mr. Mellen. Let him bring him on the stand. 
Gov. Butler. Let him bring him on the stand, and not sift 
it through this witness. 
Mr. Brown. I will withdraw that question for a moment. 
Q. Have you had an}' conversation with Mr. Fairbanks 
about it? A. I don’t recollect, distinctly, any conversation I 
had with him. 
Q. Upon that subject? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. If Mr. Records has said that, I should like to 
hear it from him. 
Q. Now, what sums of money,—in the first place, this 
book is simply a memorandum book, is it? A. It is a memo- 
randum cash-book. 
Q. Now, what sums of money are called for, — take the 
smallest and the largest, — in the course of your business? A. 
Do you mean the amount brought there ? 
Q. No ; I mean the amount called for by inmates from time 
to time. A. Well, it depended on what they wanted ; where 
they were in the institution. If they were in the hospital, they 
required one thing ; if they were men at work, out on the farm, 
they wanted tobacco and snuff, and such things. 
Q. I mean, take the amount; do they call for an amount as 
small as ten cents? A. They have called for seven cents. 
That, I believe, is the smallest amount ever called for. That 
was when the price of tobacco was seven cents, and they would 
come and get it, and it was recorded on the cash-book. After 
the price of tobacco went up to eight cents, that is what they 
would call for. Sometimes they would call for a quarter or 
fifty cents. 
Q. Could you take receipts for these sums of money? A. 
I suppose I could, but it would take me pretty much all the 
time to do it. 2750 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Many of these men can’t write nor read, can they? A. 
The majority of them can’t write. 
Q. And then you would have to have a witness to the pay- 
ment of the money? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, till this investigation commenced, did you ever 
hear of an inmate who complained because he didn’t get his 
money? A. I never, till I came into this room, during the 
30,000 people I have dealt with, have had one word of com- 
plaint from any person that the}' were not perfectly satisfied 
with the settlement made. 
Q. Did you ever hear an}' complaint from Mr. Ludwig or 
Mr. Johnson ? A. Mr. Ludwig I never saw in my life till I 
saw him in this committee-room. 
Q. How about Mr. Johnson? A. Mr. Johnson I have 
seen and have talked with him. 
Q. Did he ever make any complaint that there was any error 
in his cash ? A. I never heard any. He always seemed satis- 
fied with the amount 1 gave him. 
Q. Now, take this case of Ellen Allen ; was there any such 
amount received as $150, or anywhere thereabouts, when Ellen 
Allen was admitted? A. No, sir. 
Q. Ellen Allen was No. 51,802, was she not? A. That is 
the number on the book and the number here [referring to 
paper] ; yes, sir. 
Q. And what amount of money did she have? A. She had, 
when she died, one dollar. 
Q. Has there ever been any erasure or any change of that 
entry? A. There may have been an erasure there; I should 
think there had been. 
Gov. Butler. I thought so this morning, and it was contra- 
dicted. 
Q. Now, what does the September 26 refer to? A. Sep- 
tember 26 is the date this money was turned into the state 
treasury. 
Q. Now, from the time she died till the time that money was 
turned into the state treasury, did anybody ever make any de- 
mand on you for the money of Ellen Allen? A. No, sir. 
Q. Were you ever notified that any letters of administra- 
tion were taken out upon her estate? A. Never heard of it 
till I heard it here in the committee-room. 
Q. Did you ever hear any complaint that anybody ever 
came to the almshouse to get her clothes and jewelry and could 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2751 
not get them? A. I don’t think I ever did; I don’t remem- 
ber. 
Q. Did she have any silk dresses? A. The dresses are 
something I know nothing about. 
Q. You never heard of any? A. Never heard of an}’. 
Q. Did she have any jewelry you ever heard about? A. 
Nothing in my possession. 
Q. Nothing ever left with you? A. Nothing. 
Q. Now, take the testimony, the memorandum which you 
have of the testimony of Mr. Fairbanks, and go through and 
explain the criticisms which he has made upon it. 
The Chairman. I want to find that testimony, if I can, 
where Mr. Fairbanks went through the fifty-four cases of eras- 
ure, if any one can tell me the page in the testimony. 
Mr. Wolcott. I tliink it begins on page 917 ; I think that 
is the portion of Mr. Fairbanks’ testimony to which you refer. 
The Chairman. 1 should say that was it. 
Mr. Brown. Go on, Mr. Marsh. 
The Witness. I find, in looking over his testimony, that the 
erasures — 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) How have you got them ; alphabeti- 
cally? A. No, sir. When I went over them I didn’t have the 
books ; he had the advantage of me, he had the cash-book, and 
I didn’t. I simply took his testimony, and when I had a chance 
to get the books I did so. I took this from the testimony of 
Mr. Fairbanks, and I think I got the gist of what he said. 
Gov. Butler. I only wanted to know, so I should be able to 
follow you, where you got it. 
The Witness. I should like to state generally, before I go 
into this,—it may require a little explanation, and I think I 
am entitled to it, — I found over twenty cases where he speaks 
of erasures where the people have been discharged from the 
institution and the money paid them ; a settlement was made 
and the people went out; they received what they had at the 
institution. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) Can you identify these twenty 
cases? A. I can, sir; it may be twenty odd, but there are 
twenty, surely. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Just identify them, Mr. Marsh. A. 
The first one is Michael Sullivan, No. 34,762. Michael Sulli- 
van was discharged from the institution Nov. 22, 1878, and was 
paid his money, according to the cash-book. 2752 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And you have never heard any tiling from it since? A. 
Never heard of him or his money since. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Was that a case of an erasure? 
A. That was a case of erasure. Georgie Blair, 34,601 ; dis- 
charged from the institution, June 15, 1870, and was paid. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Never heard anything from him 
since? A. That was a woman. 
Q. Take the next case. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Thirty-four thousand and— A. 
34,661; Blair, Georgie; discharged and paid June 16, 1870. 
There is an erasure on the book, and there is no attempt made 
to conceal it. 
Q. (B}r Mr. Brown.) What is that? A. There is an 
erasure on the book, and no attempt made to conceal it. Any- 
body can see it by looking at it. 
Gov. Butler. B}t looking at it carefully enough. 
The Witness. You don’t have to look very carefully to see 
any of my erasures. 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment; we may as well test that 
now. Georgie Blair. [Book handed to the committee bjT the 
governor for inspection of the entry.] 
The Witness. In the case of Elizabeth Cassidy, where there 
is an erasure, there is also a pencil-mark showing that the 
mone}T left on deposit — 
Q. That is, an erasure has been made by somebody since it 
left, your possession? A. No, sir. 
Q. When was it? A. These pencil-marks were probably 
my erasure, showing that payments had been made from the 
amount of money, which accounts for the erasure of the amount 
of money on the books. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Why should there be an erasure? 
A. Because that was the system of keeping that book. It may 
not be the best one, but it is the one always followed in keeping 
that account. 
Q. That is, when you got through you would— A. Yes, 
sir ; I did. I made that statement when I came on the stand ; 
that is my original statement. 
Gov. Butler. Then I don’t think we need to go over this 
particularly ; because, I understand now, the testimony is, that 
when he got through, his method of keeping his cash balance 
was, he added up and struck out the original, whatever it was, 
and put down what he said was left. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2753 
The Witness. And Mr. Records does not give me credit for 
erasures where I think I ought to have them. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Mr. Fairbanks,you mean. A. Mr. 
Fairbanks; and there is a case here. There is a case here of 
Lydia Slides; the amount standing to her credit is $4.12 ; there 
is turned into the treasury from her account, $87.84. There is 
also an erasure there. Mr. Fairbanks does not tell the whole 
story. 
Mr. Brown. He stopped before he got to that, did he ? 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Does he speak of her? A. Yes, 
he does ; and he could not account for it, how she had $87.84. 
I could have accounted for it, and he could have if he had 
looked into it a little more. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) Didn’t he explain that a little more? 
A. I could not see it afterwards. 
Gov. Butler. He did explain it. 
The Witness. I don’t know how he could explain it. 
Gov. Butler. You said a moment ago he could. 
The Witness. He could have told it was $84.87 to her credit 
on the cash-book, but he could not tell where it came from. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Where did it come from? A. She 
had eighteen sovereigns in gold, which I sold, and turned into 
the treasury in addition to the money already turned in. She 
had eighteen English sovereigns, which I turned into the state 
treasury. 
Gov. Butler. Lydia Sholes. [Referring to the book.] 
The Witness. An erasure ; eighteen sovereigns in gold, and 
that money was sold and turned into the state treasury ; and 
you will find it on the cash-book. 
Q. Is that your figure, 47? A. That is $1.47, payments. 
Those are payments at different times. Here is also an erasure, 
in the case of a man, who, by the history, appeared to have one 
dollar. I traced that money out with the cash-book, and found 
that he had $21. There was an erasure there, also. Mr. 
Fairbanks didn’t deal with that so much as he did with some 
othei-s. 
Q. That is, you took off the two? A. No ; I added 20. I 
also found an erasure in that case. 
Q. Won’t you give me that; I want to find what the eras- 
ure was. What number is that? A. That is 36,446. 
Q. What name? A. Patrick Maliher. Mr. Wrighting- 
ton’s history was brought in here to show me how much money 2754 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
he had; that showed one dollar; my book showed he had 
twenty-one. [Referring to the book.] March 8, 1871, Patrick 
Maliher, $21. He absconded, and on the cash-book of the in- 
stitution the $21 is turned over into the state treasury, and if 
Mr. Fairbanks had taken the pains to have looked it up he would 
have found it. 
Mr. Brown. You call that an expert; a government expert. 
Q. He had one dollar and you found twenty-one ; what was 
the necessity of having an erasure there ? A. I don’t know, 
sir; that was a great many years ago; I simply go b}' the 
record. I can’t remember entries made in 1871. 
Q. Was this book kept by you at all? A. Yes; I used 
part of it. 
Q. Use this part of it? A. This book appears to have been 
copied from some other, the original of which I have not been 
able to find. This was kept bj- the clerk who preceded me. 
That goes back to 1870. My memory is pretty good but not 
enough for that. 
Q. (B37 Mr. Brown.) This case is not inyour handwriting, 
is it? A. Yes, sir ; this is in my handwriting. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) The man had one dollar b}r the 
record and you made him have $21 ; what was the necessit}T of 
erasing under the twenty-one ? A. I don’t know that he had 
one dollar, originally. The history that Mr. Wrightington had 
showed he had one dollar; possibly m}T book may have shown 
five. Our books didn’t always agree, for the reason that I saw 
the money and they didn’t. The man who made that record 
took the man’s statement, but I saw the cash. 
Q. If he had twenty-one dollars why didn’t you put it down 
without erasure? A. He probably had twent37 sent him by 
mail, came to him after he was there, and that was added to the 
amount on m3’ book ; and that 11101103’ I turned into the treasury, 
as m37 cash-book will show. Margai’et Nolan was noted. She 
appeared to have $10, in one place, — her name is reported as 
appearing in two different places, —ten dollars to her credit in 
one place and five in another not accounted for. The ten dol- 
lars was paid to her September 27, 1871 ; and the item of five 
dollars was paid into the state treasury after she died Septem- 
ber 29, 1874, which was also on the cash-book and Mr. Fair- 
banks didn’t follow that up. 
Q. Give us the whole of this Margaret Nolan. A. She 
came in September 18 and had $10, — that, b37 the wa37, is not 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2755 
my entry, — and was paid September 27, 1871. Margaret 
Nolan came in December 23 and died. 
Q. The same Margaret? A. I don’t know whether she 
was the same woman or not; but the woman who had the five 
dollars came in and died, and that five dollars was turned into 
the state treasury and is on the cash-book. 
Q. The whole entry is under an erasure, there ; the date, the 
name and the money. A. That is not my erasure ; no erasure 
of m}r entry ; that entry is made by somebody else. That 
shows that the money was paid, and the next one, the money is 
accounted for by being turned into the state treasury. 
Q. When was it turned in? A. The five dollars was ac- 
counted for September 29, 1874. By looking on my cash-book 
that date, you will find it. 
Q. What time did she die? A. She was admitted Decem- 
ber 23, 1871. 
Q. When did she die ? A. That record I have not got 
here ; it will appear on my register. 
Q. What is her number? A. Her number I have not got. 
Q. She came in December 23? A. December 23, 1871; 
the register will show the register number. 
Q. And will show her death? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that got paid into the state treasury when? A. 
September 29, 1874. 
Q. And when did she die ? A. August 7, 1874. [Referring 
to the record.] And the register number is 30,058. I don’t 
know whether that was the one or not. 
Q. What time was she admitted? [Referring to the record.] 
This one was admitted December 23,1869. A. I have looked 
that up and I think I am correct. I think I shall insist upon 
my date — 1871, because I looked it up. 
Gov. Butler. However, it is not of any consequence. 
The Witness. The case of Joseph Ludwig was cited as a 
man who came into the institution with $37. That man I never 
saw in my life until I saw him in this room. I gave his permit, 
which he came to the institution on, to Mr. Brown, and there is 
not a pencil-mark on it; and I always put a pencil-mark on, to 
show their condition, occupation, address of friends, etc. There 
is no pencil-mark on it, and never was. The day he was ad- 
mitted I came to Boston with the annual report, to file it with 
the Secretary of State. I think the date of his admission will 
show that he was admitted on that day; where this money is 2756 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
entered, $3.77, there is no erasure of any kind. His number is 
63,992. 
Q. He was there ? A. He was there and I never saw him. 
The money was brought to the office by the nurse of the hospi- 
tal, and I have no more doubt of his honesty than I have of 
anjffiody’s; I believe he was a thoroughly honest man. He 
brought to me $3.77 and a watch. During Ludwig’s stay at the 
institution he drew one dollar. That money was paid to him, or 
to the nurse of the hospital, who came after it. When he left 
the institution I never heard any complaint from him, Mr. 
Doane, or anybody else. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Did that go into his hands, 
Mr. Marsh? A. That money was paid to Mr. Doane, — Mr. 
Wrightington’s officer. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) A very small share of what he said 
Avas there? A. He claimed $37. The money on the book 
was $3.77 ; that was all that was ever brought to the office. The 
case of Sophia Shroeder, No. 61,591. This is accounted for in 
the cash. She had, when she entered, $9.20. There is an 
erasure in the place of the tens, it is said. There is no doubt 
about the erasure. Accounted for as $1.20. There are pencil- 
marks showing that $8 had been paid over to her. She was in 
the hospital. The woman I remember well. She would send to 
the office for money for oranges, or anything that she wanted or 
the doctor ordered, and they always got what they sent for. 
There would be no trouble if I could take this money and put it 
in a package, and put it away ; but where you pay it out piece- 
meal you cannot stop to take receipts, and you are at the in- 
mates’ mercy all the time. If anybody can suggest any way of 
doing it, I would like to have them. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, have you gone through the 
list? A. I have not. I have gone through enough to show 
the system. 
Mr. Brown. I would like to have 3rou go through all of 
them, because I think it will be seen that Mr. Fairbanks made 
some egregious mistakes. 
Gov. Butler. We haven’t seen any yet. 
Mr. Brown. Well, only $20. 
Gov. Butler. None at all. 
The Witness. No. 35,056, the case of Thomas Duane. Ad- 
mitted with $7.25. He says 7 over erasure. The erasure was 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2757 
not made by me. I know nothing about it. It cannot be 
brought up as a case against me. 
The Chairman. It will take some time to finish that? 
The Witness. There is considerable of it. 
The Chairman. Shall we adjourn until half-past two? 
Gov. Butler. How late do you sit in the afternoon? 
Mr. Brown. I would suggest that it is only half-past twelve 
now, and that we would lose too much time by waiting until 
half-past two. 
The Chairman. Shall we come in at two? Adjourn until 
two o’clock. 2758 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
FIFTY-SEVENTH HEARING. 
Monday, July 9. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 2 p.m., Senator 
Loring, of Worcester, in the chair. 
Testimony of Charles B. Marsh (continued). 
Direct examination by Mr. Broion resumed. 
Q. Mr. Marsh, take the next item, please. A. The next 
is 35,104, Hannah Donnell. I find charged to her in the cash- 
book $50. She died Oct. 17, 1870. In the cash-book is 
entered $33. There are erasures of pencil-marks in the cash- 
book, showing that cash payments had been made. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Let me see that case, will you? Is 
it in this book or the other? [Large and small cash-books.] 
A. It is in the other, I think. 
Q. What was the number and name ? A. Hannah Donnell, 
35,104. 
Q. How much on the cash-book? A. In the cash-book, 
$50. I find in pencil at the side of it, in some one’s writing, 
not my own, $33, and erasure of pencil-marks, showing that 
payments had been made from the $50. 
Q. That is to show that she had $50, and it still remained 
$50 ? A. No, sir ; $33 was paid over to the state treasurer. 
Q. She had $50, and then there is an erasure of the $50, 
and $33 put in? A. No, sir; the $33 is at the side of the 
$50, and the $33 was turned over to the treasurer. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Take the next one, Mr. Marsh. A. 
The next is 32,768, Robert Kearise. That is an entry that was 
brought up as being a thing against me. It was not made by 
me at all, and I know nothing about it. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; no entry has been brought up 
against you. 
The Witness. My name has been familiarly connected with 
it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2759 
Gov. Butler. The man who kept that book. 
The Witness. I kept the book, but it was not my entry. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Whose was it? A. It was the 
man who preceded me ; not mine at all. 
Q. Henry Moulton? A. Yes, sir. I find that person was 
discharged July 5, 1869, and the money paid. The next is 
34,768, Bridget Kelley. It says : erasure and date inserted ; no 
alteration in the money. I don’t know why that case -was men- 
tioned, unless it was to show the principle. The mone}7 was 
paid Feb. 3, 1871. The next one is 35,981, Mary Lyman ; 
paid April 27, 1871. There wras an old entry made, and a pen 
drawn through it; no attempt to conceal it; simply scratched 
out with a pen. A fresh entry was made, and no erasure against 
it. That is another that was called up. 
Q. Was that you, or the other clerk? A. That was 
myself. The next one is 35,786, Mary Mitchell. Simply a 
change in the date. The money was paid Dec. 9, 1870. 
Q (By Mr. Brown.) Paid to whom? A. To the person 
who brought it. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Any erasure? A. Nothing but a 
change in date. No change in the money at all. Next is the 
entry of Patrick Mallier. I think I referred to it before ; $21. 
Mr. Fairbanks said the money could not be accounted for. 
That is accounted for by finding it on the cash-book as being- 
turned over to the treasurer. 
Q. Won’t you show it to me? A. Has the cash-book been 
brought up? 
Mr. Innis. Mr. Records has gone after it. 
The Witness. Absconded. That is the one. That money 
is accounted for in the cash-book of the institution. 
Q. What cash-book? I will send for it. A. I don’t know; 
it is the one corresponding to that. 
Q. What date? A. Probably in September, 1871 — per- 
haps. 
Gov. Butler. Go get the other book. 
The Witness. Mr. Fairbanks said the money could not be 
accounted for. It is on the cash-book. The next is 36,590, 
Susan McClusky. I find the inmate was discharged June 19, 
1871, and the money was paid to her. 
Q. Any erasure? A. No erasure. The remark was made 
that she does not appear on the cash-book. There is no reason 2760 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
why it should be, because it was paid to the person who brought 
it. 
Q. [Referring to the cash book.] The first one I have got 
here is Hannah Donnell, 35,104. It is not in this cash-book, is 
it? A. There is $33 in pencil, and $50 stands to her credit on 
the cash-book. 
Q. Whose is that? A. That I think is Mr. Fair bank’s ; 
that $33 is not mine. 
Q. Here was an erasure? A. Yes, sir; and under that 
A'ou will find figures in pencil-mark, and if you will take a glass 
you will find -where they have been rubbed out with a rubber. 
Q. Very likely. That is the right date, is it not? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. What do }’ou mean by that? A. I mean fhat where 
payment was made the memorandum was made on this line. 
Q. Can you show me any in this book that are not rubbed 
out? A. Yee, sir. There are some. [Indicating]. 
Got. Butler. Let me see. 
The Witness. You will find them all through the book. 
Goal Butler. Well, sir, go on. 
The Witness. The next is 32,552, John Reardon. 
Q. Reardon? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Thirty Avhat? A. 32,552. 
Q. That is in this book? A. Discharged May 3, 1869. 
That is not my entry. 
Q. I don’t know that anybody has said it was ; has there? 
A. No, sir ; I thought Mr. Fairbanks was examining my work. 
Q. No, sir. He was examining the books of the institution. 
How should he know? A. Well, he seemed to connect me 
writh it all the way along. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; because you are the book-keeper 
now. 
The Witness. That is Mr. Moulton’s writing. 
Gov. Butler. I won’t make any comparison between myr 
opinion of Moulton and }Tou ; I don’t do that. 
The Witness. I am simply accounting for the entries I find 
mentioned in his testimony. 
Q. Whose handwriting is “ May 3, 1869” in? A. That, I 
should think, was my brother’s. 
Q. So you all had a hack at it? A. Anybod}7 could who 
got at it. It was in the safe. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2761 
Q. Anybody who cliose to could go and make entries? A 
No, sir ; anybody who had the right to. 
Q. Had your brother the right? A. Yes, sir; he had a 
perfect right to in my absence. 
Q. And of the money? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. All right. There was an erasure. What was it before 
it was erased ? A. I had nothing to do with it and I cannot 
tell. 
Q. And that entry of date and that two are evidently in the 
same ink, aren’t they? A. I should think that two was Mr. 
Moulton’s and a different ink from the other. 
Q. When did you first see that there? A. I saw it when 
I came to look up Mr. Fairbanks’ testimony. 
Gov. Butler. All right. 
The Witness. The books have been in the committee-room 
ever since. The next is 34,457, Fannie Smith, paid July 15, 
1870. She was discharged from the institution and the erasure 
was in the date. 
Q. It is in this one, I suppose? [Referring to the cash- 
book.] A. It might be. No change in the mone}% 
Q. Paid July 15, 1870? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And it was the date which was erased. Who did that, 
you? A. I don’t know, sir, I am sure. The fact, is the 
woman was discharged from the institution and paid. 
Q. Both the word paid and the date are erased ? A. The 
amount of money is not erased at all. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
The Witness. The next is 34,707, Mary Sigworth. She 
was discharged and paid. Erasure in the place of the four. It 
looks to me as though she came there with four dollars and 
there was more added on. 
Q. Paid August 19th ; and the $14.25 is on an erasure? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And the next one, just below, Mattie Silver, the same 
way? A. Mattie Silver was paid and discharged from the 
institution. There are pencil-marks there, showing that money 
had been paid to her. Take the glass and you will see. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I guess you will have to. 
The Witness. Mr. Fairbanks had to take the glass to find 
some of the erasures. 
Gov. Butler. But the erasures are very clear, here. 
The Witness. Yes, sir; most of them are. The next is 2762 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
34,226, Mahara A. Wall. There is an erasure in the place of 
the date. She was discharged and paid May 4, 1870. There 
is an erasure in the place of the date ; the money is not changed. 
That is brought up as an erasure, and the erasure is in the date. 
The next is 42,332, Ellen Burns, $60. Died July 9, 1874. 
The money is accounted for in the cash, September, 1874. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) What was Mr. Fairbanks’ remark 
about that? A. That all the figures are over an erasure. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Forty-two, — thirty-two, you mean, 
don’t you? A. 42,332. 
Q. Sixty. There is nothing showing money paid her, and 
here is sixty dollars over an erasure ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How much she had, nobody knows? A. Cannot tell, 
sir. 
Q. All you know is how much was paid over. It might 
have been $600 for aught we know ? A. It might have been, 
but I don’t think a woman ever came with that amount. It 
might have been ten. 
Gov. Butler. Yes; it might have been ten, and it might 
have been $600, or $6,000. Go on. 
The Witness. The one next is 56,917, Carrie Dolles. She 
had one dollar and ninety-four cents. 
Q. How man}7 thousand? A. She had one dollar and 
ninety-four cents. 
Q. How many thousand — number? A. I thought you 
asked how many thousand dollars. 56,917. She was dis- 
charged from the institution and the money paid to her. That 
date on the discharge-book shows that she was discharged on 
that day, and means that the money was paid to her. 
Gov. Butler. And the one dollar and ninety-four cents is 
erased; that is, there is an erasure where that is made. And 
that has been paid to her. 
The Witness. The next is 40,840, William Huntoon. He 
was discharged and paid. The entry shows the same amount 
he had when he entered. That is the remark. And that, I 
suppose, he gets from the history-book. 
Q. Huntoon? A. Huntoon, 40,840. 
Q. Four dollars aud fifty-six cents over an erasure? A. 
He was discharged, and the money paid. The next is 64,405, 
Minnie Joy ; erasure, and five dollars and seventeen cents over 
it. That was a case where we had several insane persons come 
in together, and I made the entry to the wrong person. I 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2763 
afterwards put down against her name : trunk, check, keys, and 
five dollars and seventeen cents, which was just what she 
brought there. 
Q. There wasn’t but one Joy, was there? A. No, sir ; but 
they were all in the list together. 
Q. Trunk, check and ke}rs, — that was erased. That is 
written over an erasure ; and five dollars and seventeen cents is 
written over an erasure? A. If the trouble is taken to look 
that up, you will find that was what she brought from the insti- 
tution she came from. 
Q. Where can I look that up and find that? A. By look- 
ing up No. 64,405, you will find the institution she came from 
to Tewksbury. 
Q. What? A. Look in the register for 64,405, and you 
will find the place where she was sent from. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Records, will you bring me that register. 
Q. Do you mean to say there is anything in the register 
to show that? A. I mean simply to find the number of that 
case ; and by writing to the institution she came from, you will 
find that the entry against her name is correct. 
Q. I have no doubt that it is ; but how does that entry on 
the register show anything about this? A. The entry on the 
register shows the institution from which she came, and I say, if 
you will take the trouble to write to that institution, you will 
find that the entry against her name is correct. 
Q Have you written? A. I have not; no, sir. But I am 
so confident that I would like to have you write. 
Q. I think you have a good deal more interest in it than I 
have. A. I must say I have considerable ; I don’t know how 
much you have. 
Q. Where is it? A. I don’t know, sir; I don’t know the 
institution. I make the statement, and I am willing that you 
should write. The next is number 45,884, Rosa Mclntire. Mr. 
Fairbanks’ remark against that is : perhaps never altered at all. 
I can’t find that it ever has been. 
Q. Then j’ou and he agree for once? A. Yes, sir ; and I 
am very happy to do it. I think it is the only time we have 
agreed. 
Mr. Brown. The first time he ever admitted he had a doubt. 
The Witness. The next is 54,789, Catherine McCann. 
I find there an erasure, and the figure six is written over 2764 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the three, showing that she came there with three dollars, and 
had three more come, which made her amount six dollars. 
Q. ( By Gov. Butler.) So that the way she got credit for 
what came was to have the three altered into a six? A. That 
is simply a memorandum ; I always kept it in that way. 
Q. I understand ; that is all there is? A. That is all there 
is. 
Q. This is all she had to rely upon, and you had to rely 
upon? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. ( B3r Mr. Brown.) You have never heard that she made 
any complaint, have }rou ? A. Never ; nor anybody else. The 
next is James Ortnann, 40,251. 
Q. (Bjr Gov. Butler.) Forty thousand and what? A. 
40,251 ; Ormann, James. 
Mr. Brown. [ Referring to the register.] 64,405. 
Q. Well, James Ormann had everything erased? A. Yes ; 
name, amount, and everything. But the man was discharged 
April 9, 1873, and the money was paid. 
Q. How does that appear? A. That appears from my 
discharge-book. 
Q. It may appear when he was discharged, and that is well 
enough; but how does it appear that any money was paid by 
you? A. Because I never knew a person — 
Q. That is your inference? A. Simply what I know. 
Q. Does any man ever leave the institution without being 
paid? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, we have some evidence upon that. But when you 
say it appears by the discharge-book, I don’t want all that 
flourish about it, if there isn’t anything about it on the book? 
A. There is no flourish about it; it is a plain statement of 
fact. 
Q. What is the fact? There isn’t anything on the book 
about it, is there ? There isn’t anything on the book about his 
being paid? A. I don’t know, sir. Mr. Fairbanks had these 
books when he made his examination. 
Q. Don’t talk to me about what Mr. Fairbanks did ; answer 
my question. Is there anything on the discharge-book about 
his being paid? A. There may be something there. 
Q. This is not the discharge-book? A. That would show 
the payment. That says paid ; that would show. 
Q. I am talking about the discharge-book. I don’t ask 
what this shows. Is there anything on the discharge-book that 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2765 
shows that this man was paid anything? A. No, sir; I don’t 
suppose there is. You mix my two statements. I say that the 
discharge book shows that he was discharged April 9. That 
book shows the payments. 
Q. And this book shows the entire erasure of everything? 
A. Yes, sir; name and all. 
Gov. Butler. All right; go on. Go ahead. And there- 
fore it shows it was paid. 
The Witness. That is marked paid. The entry is marked 
paid, I think. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Witness. I think the entry is marked paid. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; it only has a red line drawn through 
it; or rather, it is six dollars written over the red lines after 
they were drawn. You take and look at that, now. 
The Witness. I see that. 
Gov. Butler. And the red lines — 
The Witness. I think you will remember, sir, that I made 
the statement that I didn’t handle this cash until 1877. There 
is an entry in 1873 that I didn’t have — 
Gov. Butler. Then what are you swearing so positivel}” for? 
The difficulty is that we are dealing with all the people who 
made the erasures, and not you alone. 
The Witness. I know ; but you call me, and say I have re- 
ceived so much, taken so much, and that I have embezzled so 
much; that mone}r 1 have not had in my hand. 
Gov. Butler. I have not said anything about it. I have 
said that whoever kept this cash-book has made the erasures 
and stole the money. 
The Witness. I know you made that statement. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
The Witness. Then the case of Lydia Sholes, which I spoke 
of this morning, where four dollars and twelve cents was entered, 
and there is 187.84 turned into the treasury. It don’t look as 
though there was any stealing there. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; that don’t follow. Lydia Sholes 
may have had much more money than that. 
The Witness. She may have had ; yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Nothing to show that she hadn’t. There is 
an erasure. 
The Witness. Here is the case of Catherine Willey, 40,901. 2766 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Fairbanks made an attempt to show that the woman came 
with $140, when 140 was the number of the street she lived on. 
Q. (Bv Gov. Butler.) We will see about that. What is 
her name? A. Her name is Catherine Willej7, 40,901. He 
afterwards corrected his statement, and said it was the number 
of the street. I took this from the register of the institution 
and not from that book. 
Q. Well, let us see where Catherine is. Where is the num- 
ber? A. 40,901. This statement was taken from the register 
of the institution. 
Q. We will see in a minute. Catherine Willey, 40,901, five 
dollars ; one dollar and five cents in pencil that was paid her; 
five dollars and twenty cents — no, five dollars; I am right. 
Now, how much money had she when she came into the institu- 
tion? A. She had $5 when she came into the institution. 
Q. How much was paid ? A. She received one dollar and 
five cents. When I turned the money into the treasury I cheated 
myself by paying in $4.95. You will find it accounted for in 
the cash-book, $4.95 ; that is a mistake of mine in making 
change in cash. 
Q. That has been erased a little, hasn’t it? You will see 
the red line over the ink, whereas the ink should be under the 
red line. A. I don’t see any sign of an erasure. 
Q. Well, isn’t the red line over the ink? A. There is a 
red line over them all. 
Q. I don’t ask that. I am dealing with this. There are red 
lines, of course ; because }rou tell me that is the way they are 
crossed out. Now was not that five put on before the red lines 
were put on ? The red lines are where you make the final cross- 
out? A. Yes, sir; the red lines are over the black. 
Q. Very well, then ; the amount must have been written in 
after }Tou had written the red lines crossing the whole thing out. 
Now we will have this whole thing explained ? A. There is 
no black line put there after the red line. 
Gov. Butler. This is perfectly plain. [Exhibiting the 
book to the committee.] There is no doubt that these red lines 
were placed there before the black. That is the amount put in 
here after the whole thing was crossed out; the red line mean- 
ing the final cross-out. It is not a single instance by any man- 
ner of means. My theory is that this book is made up for the 
occasion. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2767 
The Witness. If it had been there would not have been any 
erasures. 
Gov. Butler. No ; it was made up by erasures. 
The Witness. No, sir; no erasures have been made in that 
book since the books were first called for. 
Gov. Butler. Erasures have been made since the red lines 
were put there. 
The Witness. If there had been any attempt to conceal I 
could have given you a perfectly clean book, copied the night 
before. I gave in the original copy. 
The Chairman. [Referring to the entr}r exhibited.] It is a 
pretty close question which is on top ; I think it is a question for 
the chemists. Go on, Mr. Marsh. 
The Witness. That is all I have on that subject. 
Mr. Brown. I told Mr. Marsh to remind me of something 
a day or two ago, that I wanted to call his attention to, and I 
cannot think what it was. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) In regard to the notice of the visit of 
the charitable committee,— wrhat year was that? A. 1877. 
Q. When did you get the notice? A. This notice [pro- 
ducing it] was received at 11.50, February 22. 
Q. What time did they get there ? A. They got there on 
the eleven o’clock train. 
Q. That is, the train that arrives at eleven o’clock? A. 
Which leaves Boston at eleven o’clock and gets there at quarter 
of twelve. 
Q. What is this? A. This is the notice of the visit of the 
charitable committee to Tewksbury in 1877. 
The Chairman. This year ? 
Mr. Brown. This is one of the visits complained of, when 
the notice was given so long beforehand. The letter didn’t 
get there until five minutes after the committee got there. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) There is a telegraph between here 
and Tewksbury, isn’t there, if the letter didn’t come for a week? 
A. We didn’t have our telegraph in at that time, sir. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. I understand you, then, that the way you kept these 
books was, in some instances, in quite a number as 3'ou told us, 
where a man came in, you put down what money be brought in 
on a book? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then somebody sent him some more, and you scratched 2768 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
out the original amount and put in the added amount? You 
would scratch out with a knife, or a rubber, or an eraser, or 
something else, and then you added on the amount that he had 
and the amount that he received, and that made the entry. 
Then you let him have money from time to time, and just 
chalked it down in pencil along the line, and when he died or 
went out you then erased the money; .you deducted what }tou 
paid him, and then put down the amount as it stood when 3’ou 
got through. Therefore you gave him credit by erasures, and 
you credited him by erasures, so there was no earthly way of 
checking your account to find out whether it was time, was 
there ? A. I don’t know of any way. 
Q. Don’t know of any way. Well, did you tell Mr. Records 
that that was jTour method of keeping the account? A. I 
talked the matter over pretty thoroughly with him. 
Q. Talking the matter over thoroughly don’t answer my 
question. Did you tell him that was your method of keeping 
the account? A. I could not saj' I did. 
Q. Don’t you know you didn’t? A. No, sir ; I don’t know 
an}Tthing about it. 
Q. Do you think he commended that way of keeping the 
account? A. Mr. Records was reported as making the state- 
ment a little stronger than I reported it. 
Q. He didn’t say it to }’ou ? A. He and I had a talk about 
it, yesterday or the day before. 
Q. I understand; but, now, did he agree that that was a 
good method of keeping that account? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did not. A. No more than I did. 
Q. That is what I am talking about. Now, then, after the 
amount had been erased that the man actually had, actually had 
when he got there, and after there had been added to that 
amount the amount that he received from his friends while he 
was there, and that put down and an erasure, and then, after 
certain pencil-marks were made against him for what he was 
supposed to have received, and that added up and deducted and 
then all scratched out again, and the last amount put down, that 
account was pretty considerably mixed, wa’n’t it? A. It might 
be to amdbody who didn’t understand it. As long as the man 
and I did — 
Q. What? A. As long as the man who had the money and 
I understood it, I don’t know as it made any difference. 
Q. Pardon me; suppose you had died, how would the man 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2769 
have come off? A. He would have got all his money just the 
same, probably. 
Q. How so? How could he tell, or an3Tbod}' else tell, aftei* 
you were gone? A. Oh, a great many kept their own private 
memorandum, and they knew as well as I did. 
Q. I suppose so; the}- knew as well as you did. But I am 
talking about your books. A. My books showed the amount 
of money standing to his credit. 
Q. The amount which you left standing to his credit? A. 
Yes. 
Q. But not the amount he had put in there. Now, was that 
your universal custom; is that the manner of keeping this 
book? A. These are the only books I ever had there. 
Q. Was that the manner of keeping them ? A. The man- 
ner of keeping them ; yes, sir. 
Q. All of them? A. It was simply a memorandum ac- 
count. 
Q. I understand it was a memorandum account; but it was 
all the account there was ? A. All there is. 
Q. It was a memorandum, but it was a book, and it was the 
first entry and the last entiy ; when the first entry was scratched 
out the middle one was inserted, and then the middle one was 
scratched out and the last one inserted ; I understand about 
that. Did you keep any of the rest of the books in that way? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Why did you keep the poor inmates’ cash-book any dif- 
ferent from the rest? A. I did ; I had a blotter which I called 
the memorandum-book for the farm. 
Q. But you carried that somewhere else? A. No, sir; it 
is here in the committee-room. 
Q. But you carried the accounts there somewhere else? A. 
I carried the accounts here somewhere else; the}' are in my 
cash-book. 
Q. Those you paid are. A. Those I paid over to the 
treasurer are in the cash-book. 
Q. But there wasn’t any earthly way in which the treasurer 
could find out whether you paid the right amount or not, except 
your word for it? A. Of late years I have given the names 
of the parties from whom the money was collected. 
Q. That don’t help him any, if he looks on your book and 
finds what has been scratched out and what has been put in. 
Now, didn’t you swear directly to me, when you went on the 2770 
CHAllITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
stand before, that you never did make any erasures to lessen 
the amount? A. I understood 3’ou asked me — 
Q. Pardon me ; I didn’t ask you what 3’ou understood ; I 
want to know what you said, and then I will deal with what 3’ou 
understood. Didn’t you swear,—for I expected this sort of ex- 
planation, so I thought 1 would put the bars up, — now, didn’t 
you swear, expressly, in answer to m3’ question, when 3tou were 
first on the stand, that 3011 never made an erasure to lessen the 
amount? On your oath,—yes or no to that? A. I did make 
the statement. 
Q. You did make that statement. A. I did; now, will 
you allow me ? 
Q. Was it true? A. It was,, as I understood 3’our ques- 
tion. Now, if I may be allowed to make an explanation? 
Q. Now’, then, what wras the question? A. You asked me, 
in the first place, if I remembered of making these amounts any 
larger ; I said I did. 
Q. Yes. A. Then I understood 3’ou to ask me if I remem- 
bered of making.them less. I didn’t remember a case ; I didn’t 
have m3r books with me. 
Q. You didn’t remember? A. No, sir; if I had had 1113" 
books 1 should have remembered. 
Q. Now, didn’t 3Tou know then as well as now that that was 
the habit of keeping these books all through, and what did you 
want the books to remember that, if that was your habit of 
book-keeping? A. I thought 3’ou were asking me what I 
remembered. 
Q. Did 30U forget that was your habit of book-keeping? A. 
I didn’t forget it; no sir. 
Q. Then you had it in memory, if 3’ou didn’t forget it. I 
asked you expressty, didn’t I, if 3’ou ever scratched out to make 
an amount less? A. Yes, sir ; but 3'ou changed 3’our question 
vei*3T suddenly, and I got into a trap ; that is all. 
Q. No trap that I can see. I asked 3’ou first if you changed 
it to make it more, and you said you did ; I then asked you if 
3’ou ever made erasures when you wanted to put down a less 
amount, and 3’ou said 3*011 didn’t; where is the trap? A. I 
thought you were asking me if there wras any* particular case I 
remembered. 
Q. Did I ask you if there w*as any particular case when I 
asked 3rou if you had changed it to make it more ? A. No? 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2771 
sir; you asked me if I remembered any case, and I didn’t 
remember. 
Q. Did I put into m3’ question the word remember? A. 
You did, in the first one. 
Q. What? A. You did, in the first one. 
Q. Sure? A. Yes. 
Q. How lately1" have you looked at it? A. When I was 
looking up this testimony’. 
Q. And you told me you didn’t remember of doing it, when 
you tell me you knew all the time that this was the wa3r the 
book was kept. A. I didn’t remember any1, particular case. 
Q. Oh, yes ; you didn’t remember an3T particular case. We 
have got your explanation of it, and I am content if yrou are. 
Now, sir, was that the first time that you were called, or the 
second? A. I should say’ it was the second. 
Gov. Butler. Any of the committee happen to have that 
testimony before them? Page 380, I guess, will be about where 
it is ; I have not looked for it. No ; it was not that time, I 
guess. 
Mr. Gilmore. The 476th is the next page after 380. 
Gov. Butler. It is further along, sir, I think. 
Mr. Wolcott. On the 480th page. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading from the record] : — 
Q. So all we have got here, — we will take any one of them, — 
here is Jane Bennett, No. 38098, 3.50, — that means $3.50,1 suppose? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Jan. 17, 1872. A. That was the date she left the institution 
and received her money. 
Q. And if she didn’t receive her money there would be a date put 
there, wouldn’t there ? A. They are not apt to leave the institution 
and not take their money with them. 
Q. Aren’t they? A. No, sir. 
Q. Suppose they run away; how would they get their money1? 
A. The money is turned over to the state treasurer at the end of the 
year. 
Q. I assume that for the present. A, Sometimes they get their 
money by writing for it. There have been such cases. 
Q That may be. A. It is not the custom, however. 
Q. I suppose not. Now, then, suppose they abscond; all the 
evidence is that the date of the absconding is put down here. For 
instance, now, let us take this man, Thomas Bradley, $7.95, absconded 
March 19, 1872, — what evidence is there that anybody got that 
money? A. There is no evidence, sir; because I have it myself 
and if you wish me to explain that particular case — 2772 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Have you got that money still ? A. I have, sir. 
Q. He left in 1872? A. Yes, sir; but he has been back there 
several times since, and brought other money. You will find his 
name there again with another amount of money. 
Q. You have got that other amount of money ? A. f have, sir. 
Q. You have got that money yet ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And have kept it ever since? A. T have, sir; and you will 
find it charged under another registry number. 
Q. Find some more of it there ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want to know, sir, whether the amounts have been 
changed in any way ? A. Sometimes they have. 
“ Sometimes they have,” — no particular mention, you see. 
Q. What for ? A. Sometimes they would have the money come 
by mail; they would hand it to me, and I would put it down under 
the same register number. 
Mr. Mellen. You will find it on the 480th page, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] 
Q. And then, if they get money coming by mail to them, what is 
entered on here is scratched out, and some other sum entered in ? 
A. Yes, sir; the two are added together. 
Q. You don’t allow the original entry to stand ? A. I do not. 
Q. But you scratch that out? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Give me such a case, will you? A. I don’t remember any; 
they are getting letters all the time, and sometimes they leave their 
money with me, and sometimes they don’t. 
Q. But do you remember any such case? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. Remember any case where you scratched out and put down 
less than there was there before ? A. No. sir. 
Q. You sure of that ? A. Iam. 
Q. Never been an entry to the credit of an inmate and then 
scratched out and a less sum put in? A. No, sir. 
Q. Always more; then that will be a guide, so far. Now, here 
was the entry kept before 1871, was it? A. Yes, sir; that is one of 
them. 
Q. And that was kept with the cash belonging to the inmates of 
the Tewksbury almshouse ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, is there any account ever carried from this book on to 
the regular books of the institution? A. Yes, sir; the money that 
was taken from that book at the end of the year, of those who had 
died or absconded, is carried on to the cash-book and on to the 
ledger. 
Q. Is that only done once a year? A. That is done once a year 
now; I don’t know what the custom was before I went there. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2773 
Q. Can we find anything about it before you went there on the 
books ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How do you get at this amount? A. What do you mean ; of 
those who have died or absconded ? 
Q. Yes. A. I take my discharge-book ; I take this book and 
look up each name on my register, and have my discharge-book with 
me at the same time; and those that have died and absconded during 
the year I put on to a piece of paper, the amounts and the names, 
and then I put it on to my cash-book and post it on to my ledger. 
Q. And turn the money over to the State ? A. I do, sir; and I 
have the treasurer’s receipt for it. 
Q. What account do you return ? A. That is included in the 
articles sold, of the institution, and the inmates’ effects. 
Q. That is, all the account found in the State treasury, or the 
State auditor’s, is articles sold, etc., and this money goes under the 
etc., don’t it ? A. Yes ; it can easily be picked out from my cash- 
book and ledger. 
Q- It may be picked out from your cash-book and ledger ? 
—and so on. 
Q. Now, then, you have told me that not in any7 case was an 
inmates’ cash scratched out and a less amount put down? A. 
I thought y7ou were questioning me about the wayr I did the 
work. 
Q. Didn’t 3*011 remember what your custom was? A. I 
didn’t think particularly about it when you were questioning 
me. 
Q. But now you have sworn that this was the custom, Mr. 
Marsh, and this was the way* of y*our book-keeping, and y*ou 
wanted to swear at the beginning that Mr. Records thought it 
was a good way? A. I don’t understand that I made any 
such remark. 
Mr. Brown. Your question was whether he remembered any 
case. 
Gov. Butler. Remembered any7 case, and then the general 
question put in ; we have got it all there, sir. 
Q. Now, I want to know another thing. Didn’t you, more 
frequently7 than where the scratching out is apparent, put the 
money* that they* received down on the same line ; when money 
came to them by mail, and you put it down at all,—didn’t y*ou 
more frequently* write the sum in, and won’t your books show 
it? A. I don’t know how that is, sir; I have done it both 
ways. Sometimes I have put it down, and put a sign of plus, 
there, 2774 
' CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What? A. I have put the sign of plus where they have 
had more come. 
Q. The sign of plus, yes; but that wouldn’t help it much, 
unless it showed how much plus? A. Well, the amount, with 
the plus, is there, too. 
Q. Now, for instance, here is a person who came in, — 
Rochford — I open to this place at random, because a leaf fell 
out. [Referring to the inmates’ cash-book.] He had, when he 
came in, $2.75. lie got $9.75, and you put that down outside? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Here is another case where a man had $6.60 when he 
came in, and then he had some more, and you put down $3 over 
it, and then put down $9.60, showing that to be his amount; 
there was no scratching out. Now, then, go on a few pages. 
A. That is one of the later entries, I think. 
Q. You did better along towards the last? A. Look at 
some of the earlier ones, and you won’t find it so. 
Q. Now, here is a case where you entered the addition of a 
watch? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, why did you keep them two ways; sometimes 
entering the money so it would show what the}’ received after- 
wards, and sometimes scratching it out and entering it so it 
would not show ? A. I may have thought that the addition of 
the money by the sign of plus was a better way; I may have 
learned something after awhile; I improved in the business 
right along. 
Q. That is the answer to that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You understand that now ; I haven’t got you into any 
trap, have I? A. I don’t think you have. 
Q. Then, if there isn’t any trap, we will see. Now, here is 
one way over here [referring to the book], — the later entry is 
60,000, and here is 46,000. A man had $3, and there is $5 
plus. Don’t you see, that was early in this book? Now, you 
are in no trap, are you? A. Let me see that, please. [Book 
handed to witness.] There is an erasure there, too, I think. 
Q. Oil, yes ; I agree to that, certainly. You kept that by 
double entry ; plus and erasure. Then here was one where you 
went it pretty strong ; and that is still further over, before you 
had learned. A. That is foreign money. 
Q. Precisely so ; but, then, you could have got the amount 
just as well and put it in over the erasure. A. I could if I 
knew the value of the coin. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2775 
Q. $24 in bills, 50 in currency, three cents and two, twenty, 
including five in gold, making 49.50 ; there don’t seem to be any- 
thing— A. There is no erasure, nor any sign of plus there, I 
notice. 
Q. I understand ; but if 3 011 add it up you will see — A. 
And that is paid to the general agent of the board of state char- 
ities. 
Q. T have no doubt, sir; I am not now on the question of 
where the money was paid, but I am on the question of putting 
in. Here is another case, earlier, where y7ou put in $6 in bills 
and $1.25 silver. This all might just as well have gone in un- 
der an erasure. A. Might have been counterfeit bills, and 1 
wanted to distinguish the bills. 
Q. You put that in so you might be sure it was not counter- 
feit? A. No, sir; I wanted her to get the money she brought 
there. 
Q- Why so? It was a she in that case ; but if it had been a 
he, you would have paid it out for tobacco seven cents a plug. 
A. I might have ; if it was all foreign money, I might have. 
Q. Well, wasn’t it all foreign money? It was bills. A. I 
didn’t know whether it was or not; -it might have been provin- 
cial money. 
Q. It might have been ; and, at that time, a little more valu- 
able. Well, had you any particular rule by which you used the 
plus? A. I hadn’t any particular rule for keeping the book 
anyway. It was simply a memorandum book. 
Q. But, pardon me; you have told me more than, — I was 
going to put it too large, I am afraid, — we will sa3' twenty 
times for sure, that that is simply a memorandum book ; but it 
was a memorandum by which the inmates’ cash was kept, their 
rights secured and the Commonwealth’s rights secured, and your 
honesty secured, wa’n’t it; that was all there was? Very’ well, 
then, that memorandum book had a good deal to do. A. And 
I guess they7 are all right, too. 
Q. Yes ; oh, yes ; then, why7 do you keep putting in, if it is 
all right, that it is simply a memorandum book ? A. You seem 
to attempt to show that there was a regular system of keeping 
that book. It was kept in the most convenient way7 1 could do 
it. 
Q. No, sir; I don’t intend to show there was ever a regu- 
lar system ; I have been trying to show all the time there was an 
irregular system. Now, during all these years, these poor men’s 2776 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
accounts and poor women’s accounts have been kept in this way ; 
and that is the way this other man kept them before you came 
there? A. There was no book of that that I have not seen 
brought into the room, and I think mine is an improvement over 
an}’ of them.. 
Q. And you think there was a worse one than yours kept 
before? A. Decidedly. 
Q. Undoubtedly worse. A. That was the first one ever 
opened there, as far as I can find. 
Q. Now, Mr. Marsh, when did you go to keeping house? A. 
I went to keeping house three years ago. 
Q. You lived with your father up to that time? A. I lived 
at the institution ; that is, I have lived at the institution since 
1869. 
Q. Now, after you went to keeping house, you carried on 
your own house? A. I did, sir. 
Q. Paid for what you had? A. I did ; generally. 
Q. Well, why did you part of the time and not the rest? 
A. Because I thought I was entitled to my living the same as 
all the rest of the officers of the institution; if I kept house I 
had no special allowance for doing it. 
Q. How did you keep the account when you got exactly wdiat 
belonged to you to take, and the balance went to your wife and 
family? A. My family isn’t very large; there is only my 
wife. 
Q. Keep a servant? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did one come from the institution? A. No, not regu- 
larly ; once in a while there would be one come down. 
Q. Now, weren’t you supplied, after you went to keeping 
house, as to your table, from the institution? A. No, sir; I 
used to buy a barrel of flour at a time, and it would last me a 
year. When I would buy my groceries I would buy them in 
Boston and Lowell, and I had my butcher and fish man. 
Q. Butcher and fish man and all that. A. And had my 
bills to show for it. 
Q. What did you get from the institution except potatoes? 
A. Once in a while they had a little something up there which 
I thought wras a little better than mine, and I would take some 
of it down to my wife. 
Q. Be it so ; and did you sometimes send it by the officers? 
A. I did ; and another thing, I would go to Boston and do my 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2777 
marketing and go to the institution, and keep it at the institu- 
tion in the ice-chest; I didn’t take ice myself. 
Q. Did you have it cooked at the institution? A. Some- 
times, in hot weather, I would have a tongue boiled at the 
institution. I used to send up my beans and brown bread Sun- 
day morning to be baked there. 
Q. WI13' not take those at the institution, they were so good, 
I have heard? A. I did take those. The cook told me he 
would rather I would take them from the institution than to fuss 
with such a small pot of beans and brown bread as I sent up, 
and I did for a while. 
Q. Then it was a fact one of the witnesses swore to, that a 
basket with dishes and food was carried to your house? A. 
Yes, sir ; but the majority of the time it was my own food I had 
bought and paid for. 
Q. Did you keep any account, either by the plus system or 
the erasure system, of these things? A. I kept my paid bills, 
sir. 
Q. Of what you*got from the institution? A. No, sir. 
Q. You and your wife lived on the institution; well, the 
other people were warmed at the institution, weren’t they? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Didn’t you claim a right to be warmed at the institution 
as well as the rest of them? A. I did ; but I bought my coal 
and paid for it. 
Q. Why not be warmed, as well as the rest? A. I was 
warmed there when I was up there. 
Q. Why not warm the house? A. I preferred to be inde- 
pendent, and warm it myself. 
Q. You thought you had a right to your living, and heat 
and light is quite a considerable item. A. I will tell you why ; 
I liked the heat from my stove better than I did steam heat, 
and I ran my stove. 
Q. That was the reason? A. That was the reason. 
Q. Did you have any work done at your house by airy of 
the inmates of the institution? A. I did ; I had an old man 
come down there, — I guess he was, well, he was over ninety 
years old, — and all the work he did in the institution was what 
he did in watching some chickens I had down home. He asked 
to go down outside the gate. 
Q. Any work,—I am going to make the chickens a sepa- 
rate item? A. Yes, sir; I did. 1 used to have a man come 2778 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
down there and do, — well, whatever I asked him to do ; and I 
paid him for it by giving him a meal every time he came. 
Q. That might have come out of the institution. A. It 
might, but it didn’t happen to. 
Q. The meal he got didn’t come out of the institution? A. 
No, sir ? it was what my wife made and cooked. 
Q. What? A. It was what my wife cooked herself; I 
didn’t give him institution food. 
Q. It might have come from your father’s table, you know. 
A. It might have, but it didn’t. 
Q. Now, about these chickens; did you use to sell the 
eggs? A. I did, sir. 
Q. To the institution ? A. I sold a few. 
Q. A good man}’? A. Not a great many; no, sir; I 
didn’t keep but seven hens. 
Q. But seven ? A. That is all. 
Q. You sure about that? A. I am very sure. 
Q. Now, then, where did the grain come from that fed them? 
A. I bought it. 
Q. From whom? A. Various and sundry people; bought 
it in Lowell. 
Q. Any from the institution? A. Yes; and paid for it. 
Q. Bought it and paid for it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. To keep the chickens ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you buy the larger part of it a‘t the institution? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Where is the account on the book of where you dealt 
with the institution for that grain? A. It is on the cash-book 
of the institution. 
Q. Show it to me. A. The cash-book has not been up 
there since I paid for it. 
Q. You paid about the time Mr. Nourse paid, I suppose? 
A. No, sir; I don’t remember when he paid. I paid when I 
broke up housekeeping, sir. 
Q. What? A. I paid when I broke up housekeeping. 
Q. When did you break up housekeeping? A. The first 
of June. 
Q. The first of last June ? A. Yes. 
Q. Had you an account of that? A. Nothing special; 
only I knew about how much I had had. 
Q. You had been having it since 1879? A. It didn’t go 
back as far as 1879 ; it went back a year and a half. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2779 
Q. Haven’t you kept chickens more than a year and a half? 
A. Yes ; but I didn’t get any meal at the institution. The 
first year I didn’t feed my chickens Very well, and they didn’t 
do much. 
Q. Will you tell me this, whether or not you made ahy 
account, in any way or shape, of what you had from the institu- 
tion ? A. No, sir ; I didn’t keep any account. 
Q. Did anybody? A. Not that I know of. 
Q. Had you any means of knowing without its being 
weighed or measured by anybody ? A. I knew about its being 
measured, because I always brought it down in the same thing. 
Q. And did you always bring it yourself? A. No, sir ; 
never. 
Q. Then you didn’t know it? A. I saw it when it was 
brought. 
Q. What? A. I saw it when it was brought. 
Q. Always? A. Generally. 
Q. Now, how did you get at how much you had had ; how 
did you reckon that? A. Well, I can give a pretty good 
estimate, n^self. 
Q. Did you reckon with anybody else ? A. No, sir. 
Q. When did 3*011 pay any other mone}* to the institution ? 
A. That is all I ever had anything to pay for, I think. 
Q. Whether 3*011 had an3*thing or not, did 3*011 ever pa3r an3T 
other mone3* till last June? A113* mo 11 e3* to the institution for 
things received till last June? A. No, sir. 
Q. And did you ever have any account on the books of the 
institution, or on any other book, of the things 3*011 received? 
A. I didn’t have occasion to open an3T account. 
Q. I didn’t ask 3*011 whether 3*011 had any occasion,— people 
generalI37 have occasion to open an account when they get 
goods,— but I am onty asking 3*011 whether 3*011 did have one. 
A. I did not, sir; no, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all we require upon that matter. I 
don’t believe I will have to trouble 3*011 any more, sir. 
Re-direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. How much meal did }Tou have, Mr. Marsh? A. I esti- 
mated I had about $10 worth, and I think I paid for all I had. 
I think if I cheated anybody I cheated myself. 
Gov. Butler, There is $30 to be credited to the investiga- 
tion. 2780 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. Pretty good investment; $20,000 to get thirty. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly it is. 
Q. A single question I want to ask you, Mr. Marsh ; some- 
thing was said to you, when yon were upon the stand a long 
time ago, about bank-books. A. I could not remember at the 
time how many receipts I had ever taken ; I found that number 
[referring to papers] ; I don’t know whether I could find any 
more by looking or not. I think it accounts for over twenty. 
Mr. Brown. Just read them, please. 
Gov. Butler. What have I brought out that this is in 
answer to ? 
The Witness. You asked me how many receipts — 
Gov. Butler. Stop a moment; 1 didn’t inquire of }-ou. I 
have not examined him a word about this now, and he has been 
on twice since that was asked. 
Mr. Brown. Do you object? 
Gov. Butler. I do. 
Mr. Brown. On what ground ? 
Gov. Butler. On the ground that the re-examination is not 
in answer to anything I brought out. 
The Chairman. What is the paper? 
Mr. Brown. They are receipts for bank-books. The wit- 
ness, when he was ready to leave the stand, called my attention to 
the fact that he had not put in the receipts for bank-books that 
were called for a long time ago. Now I shall leave it entirely to 
the committee whether this witness has a chance to explain and 
produce these receipts. 
The Chairman. This witness has been a sort of a standing- 
man on both sides, called when nobody else was present; 1 
should think, perhaps, the rule ought not to be too strictly ap- 
plied. 
Gov. Butler. I have been wanting these receipts for these 
bank-books for a long time, but they have been kept away till 
it is too late for me to examine them, and too late for me to get 
witnesses to deal with them, if they are to be dealt with. He 
has been here all the time. It is true I called for an}r re- 
ceipts he had, a long time ago, months ago, and if I didn’t be- 
lieve it was simply a trick to put them in at the last end, I 
would not enforce the rule. But, you see, it now puts me into 
a disadvantage. The legislature shuts me up, for all the work, 
to Friday. I have no earthly way to examine them, and he has 
kept them back till this time. I say it is not fair, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2781 
The Chairman. You lmve got five days, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Chairman. You have got five days. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; and to be here from early morning, 
business morning, till close of business hours, and this, with the 
rest of the work of the legislature on hand, and carrying on the 
executive office — 
The Chairman. We shan’t work very hard this week. 
Gov. Butler. And then, in the interlude, having to meet 
boards of trustees about the burning down of the Bridgewater 
almshouse, and all those things coming up, — I can work as 
many hours in a day as anybody — 
The Chairman. I think you can, and more. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Chairman. I think you can more. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; but still there is an end. If there 
was thirty-six hours in a day I could manage twenty-eight of 
them at work, but as there are not but twenty-four, I have to 
take off about as many to sleep, and so it makes them fewer. 
Now, that being so, I don’t think I am called upon to go into 
this at this late hour. 
The Chairman. I will leave it to the committee. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I want to reply one word. His 
Excellency says this is a trick. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t quite say that; I said if I didn’t be- 
lieve it was. I don’t know whether it was or not; it looks like 
it. 
Mr. Brown. Then you do believe it is a trick ? 
Gov. Butler. I am inclined to believe that way ; yes. 
Mr. Brown. I thank you. My attention has not been called 
to these receipts till to-day, with the exception that — 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t say it was your trick ; excuse me, I 
did not say it was your trick, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Oh, backing out a little, are you? 
Gov. Butler. Not a bit; not a bit. 
Mr. Brown. Very well; His Excellency never called for 
these receipts. Now, I take issue with him there. He called 
for the bank-books, and then he read from the books to show 
that this witness had had bank-books that he never had ac- 
counted for. We have never had a call from him, unless he says 
he made one to-day, when he made his little speech a moment ago, 
for these receipts ; never, We have been charged with a lot of 2782 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
bank-books. Well, I can only reply, as His Excellenc}7 says, 
sometimes, if we don’t hear from them here we shall elsewhere. 
Gov. Butler. All right. 
Mr. Mellen. I wish to call Mr. Brown’s attention to some 
language of his own early in the hearing. In speaking about 
the many calls that were made at that time, — it is near the 
200th page of the report, and we have gone towards the 3000th 
or more,—he says, “the fourth call was for every scrap of 
paper in that institution,” — quoting his words. Now he says 
His Excellency didn’t call for that scrap of paper. 
The Chairman. Where is that, Mr. Mellen? 
Mr. Mellen. Page 211. [Applause.] 
The Chairman. I shall have my detectives out here again, 
if this disturbance is kept up. 
Mr. Mellen. In the latter part of the paragraph, about the 
middle of the page: “The fourth call was for every scrap of 
paper in that institution ; of which we did not deem it proper to 
take any notice, because I take it a call of that kind is not a 
notice to anybody of any particular thing that is desired.” 
Mr. Brown. And nobod}' ever called it so, either. 
The Chairman. The question for the committee is, whether 
these receipts shall be admitted. 
[The committee voted 5 to 2 to admit the receipts.] 
Mr. Brown. Read the receipts, please, Mr. Marsh. 
Gov. Butler. Let me see them, please, before they are put 
in. [Examining the papers.] This is not a receipt to }Tou at 
all. 
The Witness. The state almshouse, of which I am clerk. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t see any bank-book mentioned there. 
[Referring to another paper.] 
The Witness. You will on the rest of them. 
Gov. Butler. There is a receipt for a bank-book in ’82 ; 
that will come under the ruling; and here is a receipt for a 
deposit book, Provident Institution for Savings, town of Bos- 
ton, to the credit of Margaret Marrion, $80. And here is a 
woman that had four bank-books,—one woman,—that the board 
of state charities took. What is the date of that? 
The Witness. June 6, ’82,—oh, this one with four ; there 
is no date to it, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Here is one : “ Received of Thomas J. Marsh, 
Superintendent, bank-books, Tewksbury, July, ’75, by Mr. 
Wrightington, — Thomas Paltoij, Ann Malone, Eliza Griffin,” 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2783 
Here is a bank-book, Oct. 18, 1872, for Mr. Wrightington. 
Then here are a number which I would like the chairman of the 
committee to let me have, that I may look them over, be- 
cause they turned up on the ninth of May. “ Received of 
Charles B. Marsh, for the committee of the legislature on public 
charitable institutions, the following bank-books belonging to 
inmates of the state almshouse at Tewksbury,” — there are 
certain bank-books. Then follows three and three are six and 
two are eight, bank-books; E. F. Loring, for the committee. 
The Chairman. They are down in the safe, Governor ; I will 
have them brought up. 
Gov. Butler. I will send down at once, sir ; I want to ex- 
amine and see how long they have been on hand. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, sir, can you tell me, — let us 
leave that one side for the present, —here is a receipt in 1882, 
— I don’t find any date on this receipt, — what date was that 
receipt written? A. I don’t know, sir ; there is no date there. 
That is Mr. Fairbanks’ signature,—Mr. Wrightington’s clerk. 
Q. Now, we will take this one. Here is a bank-book, — 
is there any record on the books of the institution, besides these 
receipts, of these bank-books? A. I don’t know, sir, whether 
they are on the cash-book or not. What is the register number 
there, and I will tell you? 
Gov. Butler. No. 43,488. 
The Witness. What is the name? 
Gov. Butler. The name is Thomas Dalton. He absconded 
Aug. 8, 1874. 
The Witness. No, sir; there is no account of that bank- 
book. The man ran away from the institution ; that bank-book 
was found in his clothing, and brought to the office after he 
left. 
Q. Well, assume that; where is the record of that transac- 
tion, that anybody had that bank-book? A. There isn’t any. 
It was brought directly up to the office, and turned over to Mr. 
Wrightington. Mr. Wrightington went to draw the money, and 
he found that this Dalton had been there, and drawn it all him- 
self ; got another bank-book. 
Q Got another bank-book? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is all right enough ; and Mr. Dalton got the money. 
Now, here was a woman, —Ann Malone. 
Mr. Brown. Wouldn’t it be better to put these receipts 
in? 2784 
charitable institutions. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. I am cross-examining him on them, and then 
they are going in. Ann Malone; she died May 20, 1871, and 
you didn’t turn over the bank-book till 1875. Any entry of 
that bank-book anywhere ? 
The Witness. I didn’t turn it over at all, for the bank- 
books on that receipt I never had, for the}’ were turned over b}r 
my brother. 
Q. Then why did you produce this as a receipt for bank- 
books I had charged you with? A. I don’t know that you 
charged me especially; you were charging about bank-books 
entered on the cash-book, and not accounted for. 
Q. I don’t care; your brother, — which brother? A. I 
don’t know whether they were in his possession or Mr. Moul- 
ton’s. 
Q. Mr. Moulton’s, —1871? You were there in 1869. A. 
They were not in my possession. 
Q. Where were they? A. They were in the safe in the 
office. 
Q. Won’t you look and see if there is any memorandum of 
that bank-book ? There don’t seem to be any record of them of 
any extent. A. What is the name, Ann Malone? 
Q. Ann Malone, register A. She was admitted July 2, 
1867 ; she died May, 1871, and her book was kept b}T somebody 
in your establishment. A. This book [referring to the cash- 
book] does not go any further back than 1868. 
Q. What? A. This book doesn’t go any further back than 
1868. 
Q. Then, so far as you know, there is no record. Now, let 
us try another. Here is Griffin C. Carney, — I should say,— 
Home Savings Bank. No ; Ezra Griffin, No. 36,163 ; admitted 
January 3, 1871 ; died September, 1871, and the bank-book 
was not delivered over to anybody till 1875. ' A113’ entry of 
that? A. Ezra Griffin, admitted January 3, 1871 ; on deposit, 
$30. I don’t know what the amount is in the bank-book. 
Q. On deposit? A. Yes; that is, on the bank-book. 
Q. Say anything about bank-book ? A. That “on deposit,” 
I suppose, means bank-book. I don’t know. 
Q. Let us see ; and there was an entry that was paid Sep- 
tember 7, 1871, wasn’t there? A. That he died September 7, 
1871. 
Q. Are you quite sure which that is? A. Yes, sir; there 
is no doubt in my mind. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2785 
Q. 1 never saw an “a” in died before. [Referring to the 
entry.] A. Yon do now, sir. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; I see “paid”, it lias been scratched 
since. I want the committee to see whether that is not “ paid, 
1871.” [Book handed to the committee for inspection.] It 
shows the correctness of this book keeping. 
Mr. Brown. You are sure you got your eye near it. 
Q. Now, let us see. Here is one, “ Ann, alias Anastacia 
Hayes, admitted Sept. 16, 1869, here Feb. 18, 1875.” Why is 
it her bank-book didn’t get turned over to Wrightington or anj-- 
body else? See if there is any record any where else. A. 
What is the name? 
Q. Anastacia, or Ann, Hayes. She was present Feb. 18, 
1875. A. I should deliver up any bank-book to Mr. Wright- 
ington called for, whether the inmate was there or not, and have 
done it, many a time. 
Q. Well, now, here is one, Oct. 18, 1882. A bank-book of 
the late Mary Kimball. Find her, will you ; 48,862. A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. What record? A. “Margaret Kimball, alias Camp- 
bell, bank-book.” 
Q. What time did she enter? A. It does not show ; simply 
gives her register number., 48,862. 
Q. Wliat time did she die? A. It does not show there 
whether she is dead or not. 
Q. That was $300, Margaret Kimball. [Referring to entry..] 
A. Three dollars, isn’t it? 
Q. I have no way of making out. Is she still there ? A. 
I think she is, sir ; I am not certain. 
Q. Well, now, here is one of June 6, 1882. A. It is $3 
instead of $300. 
Q. Margaret Marrion. A. Manning, her name is. 
Q. When did she come in ? A. Is her register number on 
the receipt? 
Q. No ; this is her deposit number, sir.. A. I didn’t know 
but she might have her number against her name. 
Gov. Butler. 51,879. 
The Witness. That can’t be the number. 
Q. Can’t you find her? A. I can’t on that book; I think 
she has come in recently. She is a woman who was at Tewks- 
bury till quite recently, but was transferred by Mr. Wrighting- 2786 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
ton to one of the other asylums. She went out, and he called 
for the bank-book and it was delivered to him. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t propose to have these receipts go off till 
they are put into the case. 
Gov. Butler. We will have them put into the case. 
The Witness. 64,107; Margaret Manning; bank-book, 
delivered to T. C. Lathrop, etc. 
Gov. Butler. They may be all considered in ; I want to 
have an opportunity to look at them. 
The Chairman. The clerk of the Senate has just left and I 
cannot get the books till morning. I will hand them to you at 
the first opportunity. The}r are in his safe. 
Mr. Brown. Here are the receipts. 
Gov. Butler. Some of them are duplicates. 
Mr. Brown. I think the}' are not duplicates. 
The Witness. There are receipts for different bank-books ; 
there are no two receipts for the same book. 
Gov. Butler. When they are printed we will read them and 
see whether I am right or wrong. 
Mr. Brown. I believe that is all, Mr. Marsh. 
Gov. Butler. Margaret Manning had but one bank-book, 
and there are two receipts, one by the guardian and one by 
somebody else. 
State Almshouse, Tewkshuby, Feb. 18, 75. 
Rec’d of Thomas J. Marsh, Sup’t, bank-books as follows : 
S. C. Wrightington, 
Gen. Ag’t B. S. C. 
Thomas Dalton. Boston Five Cents Savings Bank. Reg. No. 
43,488; admitted April 28th, 1874; absconded Aug. 8, 74. 
Ann Malone. South Berwick Savings Bank. Reg. A for I 320. 
Ad. July 22,’67. Died May 20,71. 
Margaret Togle, alias Considine, New Bedford Inst, for Savings. 
Reg. No. 37,220. Ad. Sept. 20, 71 ; here Feb’y 18, 75. 
Eliza Griffin, alias Caney. Home Savings Bank, Boston. Reg. 
No. 36,163. Ad. Jan. 3, 71. Died Sept. 7, 71. 
Ann alias Anastasia Hayes, Woi'cester Co. Inst, for Savings. Reg. 
A for I 638. Ad. Sept. 16, 79 ; here Feb’y 18, 75. 
Reed, of Thomas J. Marsh, Supt., the following bank-books the 
property of Julia Carr (37,167), formerly an inmate of the State 
almshouse at Tewksbury: No. 2,784, $ 115.66; No. 8,299, $794.30; 
No. 525, $405.71; No. 106,668, $63.29. 
(Signed) 
H. H. Fairbanks, Clerk, 
For Gen. Agt. B. of S. C. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2787 
Boston, June 6, 1882. 
Received of Thomas J. Marsh, Supt. State Almshouse, Tewksbury, 
deposit book No. 27,475 (C), Provident Institution for Savings, in the 
town of Boston, showing a net deposit of eighty dollars ($80.00) 
February 5, 1879, to the credit of Margaret Marrion. 
(signed) 
John A. Coffy, 
Guardian Marg’t Marriou. 
Boston, June 6th, 1882. 
Received of Thomas J. Marsh, Supt. State Almshouse, Tewks- 
bury, deposit book 26,308, Union Institution for Savings in the city 
of Boston, showing a net deposit of one thousand and forty dollars 
and forty cents ( 1,040.40), November, 1878, to the credit of 
Margaret Manning. 
(Signed) 
John A. Coffy, 
Guardian Margaret Manning. 
State Almshouse, 
Tewksbury, Mass., Oct. 18, 1882. 
Received of Thomas J. Marsh, Supt. State Almshouse, Tewksbury, 
bank-book belonging to the late Marg’t Kimball [48,862]. 
(Signed) 
S. C. Wrightington, Supt. 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 
State Almshouse, 
Tewksbury, May 9th, 1883. 
Received from Charles B. Marsh, for the committee of the legisla- 
ture on public charitable institutions, the following bank-books 
belonging to inmates of the State Almshouse at Tewksbury: 
Bank Book No. Name. 
29.806, ... Mary Mc’Letland. 
3,908, Frank Anderson. 
635, Bridget Conley. 
3,933, Andrew J.Hooke. 
5,378, Mary Linen. 
29,829, Bridget Ryan. 
61,329, Jane Raycraft. 
79.806, Annie Daniel. 
(Signed) 
E. P. Losing, 
For the Committee. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) Mr. Marsh, I want to ask you one 
question. At the first hearing there was a letter read from 
you, apparently, to A. A. Roach, in regard to the body of 
Patrick Shields. Did you have any' further correspondence 
with Mr. Roach ? A. I don’t remember any ; no, sir. 2788 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Or any complaints that the law was not complied wdth in 
this particular? A. I don’t remember any complaints that 
ever reached me. 
Q. Has there ever been complaints by anj'body? A. No, 
sir. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Roach is Judge Roach who wrote, as the 
man testified, for him. The man testified there, somewhere, or 
else he told me, that he got Mr. Roach to write for him. Mr. 
Roach is now dead, so Mr. Innis informs me. 
The Chairman. I want to ask Mr. Records a question. 
Francis B. Records {recalled). 
Examination by the Chairman. 
The Chairman. Governor, will you give me that book we 
have been looking at; the inmates’ cash-book. 
Mr. Records. I have it. 
The Chairman. I want to see if he can find out which is on 
top, the red or the black. It is a pretty close question, and I 
think we had better have the expert say. 
Gov. Butler. This gentleman has not pretended, yet, to be 
an expert on that question. Mr. Fairbanks is my expert. 
The Chairman. I thought he was an expert in book-keep- 
ing enough to ask him the question. Perhaps his opinion will 
be better than ours a little. 
Gov. Butler. Very good. 
The Chairman. Will you direct him to that particular case? 
Gov. Butler. Margaret Willis. 
The Chairman. Whether the black or the red ink is on top 
is reall}- the question. 
The Witness. The black is over the red. 
Q. Any other cases there on the same page, for instance? 
A. I don’t see other cases but what the red is over the black. 
Gov. Butler. I can find some in the book, easily. 
Q. You think that is the only one oil that page? A. That 
is the only case I notice on that page. 
The Chairman. Will you pass that to the witness? Some 
of the committee have been experimenting a little. [Paper 
handed witness.] Whether you can tell which is on the top 
there, Mr. Witness. 
Gov. Butler. Want to puzzle your own expert? 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2789 
The Witness. Those on the right, the red is over the hlaek. 
The Chairman. On the right? 
The Witness. The right hand-column. 
The Chairman. Mr. Wolcott, is that right? 
Mr. Walcott. No, sir; I didn’t make it myself, but I be- 
lieve it is exaetty the reverse of the fact. 
The Witness. Excuse me. 
Mr. Brown. Of course, you can be excused, now. 
The Chairman. Show the governor the paper, so he can see 
what tricks we are up to. [Paper handed the governor.] 
Gov. Butler. Which column ? I didn’t understand. 
The Witness. Perhaps you can tell. 
Mr. Brown. Then you mean to reverse your testimony as to 
that entry in the book, do you? 
The Witness. Oh, no. 
The Chairman. That is all. 
Gov. Butler. [Examining the paper.] I should say there 
would not be much difficulty about that. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, that is all the testimony I have, 
except one fact from Mr. Doane. He is an agent of the board 
down stairs, and who, I understand, has been sent to Bridge- 
water to-da}r, and was expected here. It is simply a matter of 
the cash, where the entry shows it was transferred to him, and 
I want to show that it was given to him. 
The Chairman. No objection to his testifying when he gets 
here, I presume? 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
The Chairman. We shan’t go any further to-day. 
Gov. Butler. Then the defence is all in, except Mr. Doane? 
The Chairman. I take it so. 
Gov. Butler. In order that we may have no dispute about 
it, is Mr. Thomas J. Marsh to be called? 
The Chairman. That is for the committee to decide. I take 
it from what Mr. Brown says he does not intend to call him. At 
four o’clock the committee is to have a meeting. 
Adjourned to half-past nine on Tuesday morning. 2790 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
FIFTY-EIGHTH HEARING. 
Tuesday, July 10. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Torino of Worcester in the chair. 
The Chairman. The chair will announce now, before the 
hearing commences, that the doorkeepers are instructed to put 
out anybody who disturbs the meeting with any applause, without 
any orders from the committee. We are short of time, and we 
cannot waste any in demonstrations. Mr. Brown, are you 
ready to proceed? 
Gov. Butler. I would ask any gentleman here not to 
applaud, so that the trouble may not happen. And I want to 
say here that I don’t agree as to the right to put out anybody 
by the order of the chairman, or anybody else. 
The Chairman. I suppose the committee are in charge 
here. 
Gov. Butler. The committee cannot have any power to 
arrest anybod}r, that I know of. 
The Chairman. They have power to maintain order in this 
room, I take it. 
Mr. Brown. I suppose the committee have power to have 
this hearing in executive session. 
Gov. Butler. Certain 1}', whenever they want to. I have no 
objection to that. 
The Chairman. We assume that we have power to maintain 
order. 
Gov. Butler. No person can be arrested except he has com- 
mitted a felony. It is not a felony to applaud. 
The Chairman. Mr. Brown, is your witness here? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2791 
Testimony of Thomas M. Doane (sworn). 
Direct examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What is your full name ? A. Thomas M. Doane. 
Q. What is your business? A. I am at present transporta- 
tion agent of the board of state charities. 
Q. How long have 3'ou been connected with the board of 
state charities in that way ? A. More or less for the last three 
years. 
Q. Do you recollect a man by the name of Joseph Ludwig, 
who was taken from the State almshouse by you? A. Joseph 
Ludwig? I do ; yes, sir. 
Q. Did he have any money, do you recollect? A. I recol- 
lect he had some ; but a small amount. 
Q. A very small amount? 
Gov. Butler. The “very” was an interpolation. 
Mr. Brown. I ask him. 
The Witness. It was an amount perhaps less than five dol- 
lars. 
Q. Well, was there any fact connected with your treatment 
of him, or what you did for him, that enables you to recollect 
particularly about it? A. Yes, sir; he was a stout man, who 
would weigh about 200 pounds ; and was lame. He told me that 
he lived in Springfield, and lived there quite awhile—a butcher. 
I had five or six more with him at the time. There was a fam- 
ily going to Worcester, named McCarthy. 
Q. Do you recollect whether 3rou paid his fare to Springfield ? 
A. Yes, sir ; m3’ bill shows that I paid his fare. 
Q. Did he, during any time while yuu were with him, make 
any claim that he hadn’t received from the almshouse all the 
money to which he was entitled? A. No, sir. 
Q. And he didn’t say anything about it, I suppose? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. All he had with him was a small amount, less than five 
dollars ; and I suppose }rou paid his fare as you paid that of the 
rest of the party ? A. I paid his fare ; yes, sir. 
Q. You did not call on him for payment? A. I found he 
had a small amount, and I thought it would not look r?ght to 
take his fare out. 
Q. You treated him as you did the others? A. Yes, sir. 
Cross-examination by Gov. Butler. 2792 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. He had both legs off? A. No, sir; he had neither one 
off. He was lame in his leg. He had them broken or sprained, 
so that he was up there I don’t know how long. 
Q. He had them broken or sprained? A. Yes, sir; one of 
them. 
Q. Well, you didn’t learn—you learned about how much 
money he had, but 3*011 didn’t learn that he had both legs off? 
A. This man had no legs off, that I recollect. 
Q. This man that you are talking about had no legs off? 
A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. All right, sir. 
The Chairman. Proceed now, Governor. 
Mr. Brown. Do you claim that Ludwig had his legs off? 
Gov. Butler. Does this close your case, sir? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Veiy well; I will call a witness or two. 
TESTIMONY IN REBUTTAL {resumed). 
Testimony of Annie M. Hanson {sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Annie M. Hanson is your name? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where were you born? A. In Sweden. 
Q. What was your maiden name, Mrs. Hanson ? A. An- 
derson. 
Q. Had you a sister by the name of Charlotte Anderson ? 
A. Yes, sir; I had. 
Q. When did you two come from Sweden? A. She came 
in 1871 and I came in 1872. 
Q. She came a year before you ? A. A year before. 
Q. She was older than you? A. Yes, sir; she was nine 
years older than I. 
Q. Did she send for 3rou? A. Yes, sir ; she did. 
Q. She sent for you to bring you on. After, while she was 
here, did she lose her mind? A. Yes ; she did. 
Q. Were you with her then? A. I was there. 
Q. Were you with her then? A. No, sir ; I was not with 
her. 
Q. Where was she sent to ? A. She was sent to Taunton. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2793 
Mr. Brown. That is not in rebuttal of anything. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, it is. I propose to show that, having 
left those directions, the girl died soon after, and was buried, 
and she got no notice of the fact. Now, they have sworn, over 
and over again, that they notified everybody. Nowt, I have got 
a case where they knew perfectly well where this lady was, and 
she made a request that she might be notified if there was any 
trouble ; and that contradicts every witness they have put on 
upon this branch of the subject. I want to show that she left a 
request. 
The Chairman. You want to show, by the testimony of this 
witness, that she left a request, or that her sister said she left a 
request. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. Strange you should think I said 
that. No. What I said was that she herself left the request 
that she should be notified when anything happened to her sis- 
ter. 
The Chairman. Whose testimony does that rebut? 
Gov. Butler. That itself does not; but the fact that the 
sister died, and she was not notified, contradicts the testimony of 
everybody upon this branch of the case; because they all say 
they notified all the friends, when they knew that the party had 
any friends, to come and get them. And this poor girl went to 
Harvard, and didn’t get a Christian burial, as her sister tried to 
have her. 
The Chairman. That is not in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. Well, it will be when we get along, unless the 
committee rule it out. 
The Chairman. I don't think it is presumed that anybody 
went to Harvard without evidence. 
Mr. Brown. Nobody has pretended, and the governor him- 
self is not now pretending, and I cannot now recall the name of 
an}7 witness who said that they knew who the friends of Char- 
lotte Anderson were. On the other hand, he asked several 
times several people if they knew that she had a sister, and my 
recollection is that they invariably said they did not. 
Gov. Butler. That is exactly what I have not claimed. I 
have claimed that they swore here, over and over again, all the 
Marshes, except the one that is eloigned — Charles swore, the old 
man swore, they all swore, Nourse swore, that whenever the ad- 
dress was known the party so claiming to be a friend was immedi- 
ately notified, so that they mi girt come and get the remains. That 2794 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
they have sworn. To contradict that, 1 am going to show that 
the address of this lady was known. She notified them, and 
she got no notice of the death of her sister, so as to be able to 
go and take her away. Now, that contradicts the whole theory 
of the propriety of dealing with the dead in Tewksbury. It is 
not a question of whether anybody knew Charlotte Anderson’s 
sister. They were not bound to know that. But Capt. Marsh 
did know; he was the person that should know; this lady 
told him, and made the request to him ; and then her sister was 
taken, God and the authorities at Tewksbury only know where. 
The Chairman. I think the committee will vote upon it. 
Mr. Learnard. What is the question, Mr. Chairman? 
Gov. Butler. The question is : Did she notify Capt. Marsh 
where to send for her in case anything happened to her sister? 
Mr. Brown. That, on the governor’s own statement, is 
wholly new matter. They said that they did notify people, 
where they had knowledge. But he didn’t ask Capt. Marsh if 
the sister told him what her address was, — where she could be 
found. It is entirely new matter in every aspect of the case. 
[The testimony was admitted.] 
Q. Now, Mrs. Hanson, what did 3Tou say to Capt. Marsh as 
to wdiere you would be, or where were? A. When I was 
there the last time my sister was sick, and I asked the nurse — 
when I was there the last time to see my sister alive, she was 
taken away from the children’s ward. I asked Capt. Marsh and 
I asked Mrs. Parks to be sure and let me know if she was 
getting any worse, because she was such a sick girl she didn’t 
know. And they promised to let me know ; and they had my 
address, and I got a letter from there three weeks before ; and 
they had my address, and I was in the same place two years. 
Q. You asked them to let you know if she was worse? Did 
you get any notice of the funeral? A. No; I didn’t get any 
notice at all. There w'as a friend of mine went out there to see 
somebody else, and she heard of it; and I went out the next 
day. 
Q. After }’ou left your sister, did you ever see her again? 
A. No, sir ; I did not. 
Gov. Butler. The witness is yours, Mr. Brown. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What was 1 he address that you gave? A. It was 61 
Clifford .Street, Boston Highland^. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2795 
Q. To whom did }’ou give it? A. I gave it to Capt. 
Marsh himself, and I see him write it down on the book. 
Q. Where was he when he wrote it down on the book? A. 
lie was in the office, and, at the same time, he wrote an order 
for me to draw some money out of the bank, that she had in 
the Suffolk Bank in Boston, of which I think he had a note. 
Q. Where was this Mrs. Parks? A. She was a nurse in 
the ward across the yard ; I don’t know the name of the ward. 
Q. How long after the death of your sister was it you went 
there? A. Three weeks after she was buried. 
Q. Where are you living now? A. I am living in Boston. 
Q. Whereabouts in Boston? A. L live at 24 Sheafe Street. 
Q. Why did you feel delicate about telling what your num- 
ber was? A. Well, I don’t know, sir. I am not obliged to 
tell it to everybody. 
Q. I didn’t ask you that. I asked you why it was you felt 
delicate about telling your address, 24 Sheafe Street? A. 
Nothing particular. 
Q. Why did you look at the governor to see if you should 
or not? A. I didn’t know whether I should or not. 
Q. Are you married ? A. Iam. 
Q. Living with your husband? A. Yes, sir; I am. 
Q You are not engaged in any kind of business you are 
ashamed of? A. I hope not. 
Q. Now', can you tell any reason why you feel delicacy in 
in giving your address? A. No ; 1 cannot give any reason. 
Q. How long have you lived at 24 Sheafe Street? A. A 
year ago, the 24th of last October. 
Q. Where did you live before that? A. I lived at Nan 
tasket Beach with R. H. Stearns’s family. 
Q. Howr long did you live in R. H. Stearns’s family ? A. I 
lived there three summers. 
Q. And winters too? A. No, sir. I lived on Washington 
Street with Mr. Crockett. 
Q. What number on Washington Street? A. 1060, I 
think ; the corner of Florence and Washington. 
Q. How long did 3’ou live at Clifford Street? A. I lived 
there two years. 
Q. Who lived there? A. George B. Hilliard. 2796 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Testimony of John A. McArthur (sworn). 
Direct examination. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Dr. McArthur, where do you 
reside? A. In Lynn. 
Q. What is your profession ? A. I am a physician. 
Q. Where did you study? A. Harvard medical college. 
Q. When did you enter? A. In ’67, I think, sir. 
Q. How long were you there? A. About four years, I 
believe. 
Q. Was Dr. Dixwell there when you were there? A. Yes, 
sir; lie came there about the last of my being there. 
Q. Did you make his acquaintance there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Has that acquaintance continued ever since? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Are you in charge of an}r public institutions in Lynn? 
A. No, sir. When Dr. Dixwell was agent for the Society for 
the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, I acted for some time as 
agent. 
Q. As their agent in Lynn ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long ago was that? A. I should say it might have 
been four or five years ago. 
Q. And you have known him from that time thenceforward? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And have you known other people who have known him? 
A. I don’t know, sir, that I do ; I may. 
Q. Yes, sir. And you had occasion to act under his direc- 
tion, you say? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you ever seen any signs of lunacy upon him? A. 
I never have. 
Q. Whether, on the contrary, he is very bright and clear- 
headed? A. I always considered him so. 
Q. Have you until this investigation ever heard his character 
for truth and veracity questioned? A. No, sir; I never did. 
Q. You say he was the agent. He was at the head of the 
society, or managing man? A. die was the managing man. 
Q. Managing man. Was he so for some years? A. I 
think he was for a number of years. 
Q. For a number of years. Did you know about his being 
engaged in that business — in the business of taking care of 
destitute children — outside of what you were doing ? A. Yes, 
sir; yes, sir. He was the general state agent of the society, 1883.] 
HOUSE--No. 300. 
2797 
Q. General state agent of the society? A. I think so; 
yes, sir. 
Q. When was the last time you saw him to talk with him? 
A. Within perhaps eighteen months I saw him ; perhaps not 
more than a year. 
Q. Where was he? A. It was at the Parker House I met him. 
I was in the dining-room getting a lunch. I met him there and 
found him filling a lunch-basket, having quite a large quantity 
of food put up, and I asked him what he was going to do with 
that, and he said it was for some children, some hungry chil- 
dren he had found and who were at his ollice — three or four 
children — and he came there to purchase this food to feed 
them. 
Q. Now% we will go to another subject. When you were 
with him in college, whether he was an active and close and 
energetic student? A. I always considered him so; studious 
and bright and active. 
Q. When you were at college — you were there four years — 
did you ever go into the dead-house? A. Where the dead 
were kept? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir ; I have been in there. 
Q. How many did you see there at a time? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. And I pray the judgment of the committee 
also. What do you pray the judgment of the committee upon? 
whether it is a warm day? I think they would be unanimous. 
The Chairman. I doubt if we should. 
Mr. Brown. It is very comfortable, Governor. You may 
be getting a little heated, the rest of us are comfortable. 
This matter was gone into in chief. His Excellenc}' has pro- 
duced Dr. Dixwell to testify to that matter. A large amount of 
testimony has been produced to show that what Dr. Dixwell 
said was not a fact. Now, I suppose it is perfectly competent 
to show that the reputation of any one of those witnesses, 
who testified to the absence of those bodies at the medical 
school, is bad. It is perfectly competent to show that a certain 
line of facts — that they were not at the institution at the time 
stated they were, or something of that kind. But the 
question as to whether there were bodies there or not, is not a 
matter in rebuttal. That was a matter gone into in chief; and 
out of the thousands of graduates of Harvard Medical School, 
His Excellency could have taken his pick, instead of taking a 2798 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
man who, in Boston, — 1 venture to say we cannot find a man 
in Boston who will say he is of sound mind, — and he has to go 
to Lynn. I submit it isn’t in rebuttal, 
Gov. Butler. Is it in contradiction? 
Mr. Brown. That isn’t, in rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. It is in contradiction of their witnesses. 
They brought the refuse of the Harvard Medical School to tell 
us that bodies were never there, except one or two. They 
swore to it, one after another, when those men said they visited 
it every day, and one went up there because it was his duty to 
visit it. Now, I propose to prove by this witness that there 
were fifteen to twenty there at a time, and they were kept 
stored there. The fact that that corroborates Dixwell, don’t 
render it less testimony to contradict the fellow that contradicted 
Dixwell. Let us try it. We are trying a case of assault and 
battery, and the question was whether A struck IL A swears 
that he didn’t strike B in defence. Then, to contradict A, 
cannot I put on the testimony of two, three, five or ten men, 
who were right there, to show that A did strike B? 1 should 
think so. Not for the purpose of proving that A did strike B, 
but for the purpose of proving the untruthfulness of A, who 
says he was there arid didn’t strike B. It wasn’t to sustain Dr. 
Dixwell, because in my judgment he requires no sustenation, 
after all we have heard, but for the purpose of showing that all 
these men, picked out and culled out, don’t tell the truth. If 1 
am not to be allowed to show that they didn’t tell the truth, 
then I might as well stop here, because that isn’t less in rebuttal 
to show things inconsistent with the testimony of the defence. 
That is the very idea. Rebut. What is the meaning of that? 
It means to put away, set aside, .to break the force of. Now, if 
I can prove, — and I have a right to call them all if I choose, — 
suppose I can prove by every student in Harvard College, 
except those three who were brought here, that there was con- 
tinually kept on hand in that dead-house fifteen or twenty 
bodies, why, that would completely annihilate them. I cannot 
do it except by doing it one at a time. Well, as to the intima- 
tion outside, that my whole time was to be taken up, and the 
defence was to be run as near as possible to the end of my time, 
and then my whole time was to be taken up by arguing ques- 
tions of evidence — 
The Chairman. The committee have no such intentions. 1885.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2799 
Gov. Butler. I understand the committee haven’t, because 
you don’t control the argument. 
Mr. Brown. I have taken the same number of days which 
His Excellency has taken, and I believe I have produced a 
much larger record. I will take the same question His Excel- 
lency takes. The question is whether A has been assaulted, and 
the government produce three witnesses to show that the de- 
fendant prisoner did assault A, and they stop ; and then the 
prisoner puts on five witnesses to show that he didn’t assault A ; 
and now the governor’s proposition is that the government can 
put on three more to show that he did. Well, then, if he can, 
the prisoner can put on six more, if he has got them, to show 
that he didn’t, and so you can go on through all eternity. That 
is the naked proposal, as His Excellency puts it. I venture to 
say there is no more absurd statement put to any tribunal that 
had an important question to decide. His Excellency put in all 
the evidence he wanted ; because he is the sole judge. He says 
he isn’t the accuser, but I notice he determines everything to 
be done. 
Gov. Butler. Especially the last three questions. 
Mr. Brown. You made it appear so clearly that you were 
wrong that the committee voted against you. Now he took his 
own time, and went on from the 30th of March until the middle 
of May. He had the catalogues of the Harvard Medical School; 
he bad thousands of graduates within twenty miles of this city; 
he could have consulted them ; he didn’t. He chose to rely upon 
Dixwell and he came to grief, and nowr he wants to reinforce his 
case ; he wants to put in another witness to testify to precisely 
the line of facts which were op<sn to him in chief; and there is 
no chance, and he puts it on the ground that it is contradiction. 
Well, contradictions might go on, as I said before, indefinitely, 
and there would be no end to them. 
Gov. Butler. There may be. 
Mr. Brown. I submit that it ought not to be allowed. 
Gov. Butler. I agree that contradictions may go on. Let’s 
follow out the illustration. 
Mr. Brown. I believe I didn’t close. 
Gov. Butler. I understand ; but you didn’t open. 
The Chairman. Proceed, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t by permission, but I do by right. 
Now, for illustration, suppose, of the three or five witnesses I 2800 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apt. 
should put on, the defence could show that one wasn’t there at 
all; that he was down the harbor fishing, that day ? 
Mr. Brown. I agree, if you can show that none of these 
men were at the Harvard Medical School, all right. 
Gov. Butler. The rule of testimony isn’t covered by 
whether a man is a medical scholar. Then suppose, after they 
had done that — because I did that once myself—you could 
show that the man who was down the harbor with him, was ac- 
tually in the house of correction, under lock and key? Couldn’t 
the}* do that as rebuttal — sur-rebuttal — to the end of meeting 
the truth of witnesses ; that is the point. And the jury in the 
case that I put, I think, Avould be instructed by the judge, that 
you must be convinced by the testimony that was put in, that 
an assault was committed, unless that has been controlled by 
the witnesses put in for the defence ; unless their credibility is 
controlled by the witnesses again produced by the government, 
to show that the witnesses of the defence didn’t tell the truth. 
And I think the case would get pretty fairly tried. But 1 want 
to say something more, once for all. We are here, all of us, 
not for the purpose of fencing upon technicalities, but for the pur- 
pose of ascertaining grave facts affecting, it is claimed, the 
credit of our Commonwealth and its charitable and educational 
institutions. Now, what ought we to desire? Not to see 
whether this, that or the other point can be taken to keep out 
the truth, but to hear the truth, to get at the facts, and to find 
out what the truth is. We are investigating. We are not try- 
ing the case. We are a grand jury ; and I will venture to say 
that nobody ever heard, in a grand jury room, of the defence 
and the rebuttal and the order of testimony. 
The Chairman. There is only one side in the grand jury 
room, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I am aware there is only one side in the 
grand jury room. I said we are acting very like a grand jury 
here. [Laughter.] Now, I desire again, as I don’t like to 
see men put out, — but if gentlemen will applaud, I shall ask 
to sit with closed doors. I want to aid the chairman in that 
regard, although 1 don’t think men can be arrested by the order 
of anybody — 
The Chairman. Nobody has been arrested. 
Gov. Butler. Now, the grand jury is to find out and hear 
only one side. There isn’t two sides. There ought not to 
be two sides. I am putting in such evidence as I can, as there 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2801 
Q. Did you see her there? A. Yes, sir ; I did. 
Q. Now, won’t you tell us about her condition ; whether she 
was raving mad, or only melancholy and quiet. A. Well, 
sometimes she was quiet when I was there. She never was 
very wild, but she spoke out of the way. 
Q. Where was she sent to from thence? A. She was sent 
to Tewksbury from Taunton. 
Q. Did you call on her at Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir; I 
did. 
Q. How long after she had been there? A. About two 
months. 
Q. How was she then? A. She was about the same way. 
Q. Talking out of her mind, but quiet. Now, then, how 
often did you call upon her? A. Well, I called about every 
two months, first; the first year she was there. 
Q. Well, after she had been there a year or more, did you 
call? A. Yes ; I called there once, and I was told not to call 
so often, because she gets very wild after she sees me. 
Q. Did she get very wild while you were there? A. No, 
sir; she never was. She always knew me, and she was glad to 
see me. 
Q. You were told not to call so often, and }7ou didn’t. Did 
you call afterwards, when something had happened to her? A. 
Yes ; I called about three months after she had a child. 
Q. Did she have a child with her in the insane ward? A. 
No, sir; she was in the nursery; in the ward where the little 
babies are ; I found her there. 
Q. And had her child. Well, did }'ou hear anything about 
that child until you went up there? A. No, sir ; I never did. 
Q. When you found her there, did you ask her anything 
about where her child came from? Yes, sir; I did. She 
didn’t seem to know. I asked her if she had married the man. 
< Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. I 
don’t know how that is in an}7 in rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. Wh}7 not? 
Mr. Brown. It is a conversation with a dead person, in the 
first place. 
Gov. Butler. Conversation may lead to rebuttal; that is, 
evidence that comes out of conversation. 
The Chairman. Your purpose is to show the paternity of 
the child ; is that it? 
Gov. Butler. I am going to try to show the paternity of 2802 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr 
the child, and what this lady did about it to find out the pater- 
nity of the child. 
The Chairman. How is that competent? 
Mr. Brown. It is entirely new matter. 
The Chairman. Why isn’t it? 
Gov. Butler. I know it is new matter. All rebuttal is 
new. 
Mr. Brown. You said that before. 
Gov. Butler. I know 1 did. I must say it over again, be- 
cause it didn’t make the proper impression upon the counsel. 1 
have asked about the paternity of the child, and now I propose 
to contradict somebody about the paternity of the child. Con- 
tradiction is alwaj's rebuttal. I propose to contradict the wit- 
nesses. 
Mr. Brown. What witness? 
The Chairman. Who is the witness you propose to contra- 
dict? 
Gov. Butler. I propose to contradict Capt. Marsh. I pro- 
pose to show that this lady got the history as well as she could, 
got what she said about the child ; and she then took her sister 
and the child down to Capt. Marsh, and. asked him about it; 
and I propose to put in what he said about it, too. I think I 
can contradict him. I could in anj’ other court on earth. 
Mr. Brown. 1 would like to have His Excellenc}’ state to 
the committee what Capt. Marsh said about this child. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly, I will state it — what this lad}’ 
said to her sister. 
Mr. Brown. No. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; 1 am not going to tell what my 
evidence is to be now. You will have to follow it. I propose 
to show what she said to her sister about who the father of the 
child was, and whether it was a young man. She would laugh ; 
and when she was asked: “ Why don’t you tell him to marry 
you?” she said: “He is a gray-haired man, and I don’t 
want to marry him, and I won’t marry him,” or something of 
that sort. Then she took the girl, her sister and the child, and 
went to Capt. Marsh and asked him about it, and he put his 
hands on this insane girl’s shoulder, with the child in her arms, 
and said : “ We know how to make babies here, don’t we, 
Charlotte?” Now, I don’t care which way you put it; whether 
it was the meaning that he was the father of the child, or 
whether it was a remark made to the sister of the insane woman 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2803 
who was under his charge. If it was the latter, it was the most 
brutal treatment that could be given on earth ; and if it was the 
first, everybody must draw their own conclusions. 
The Chairman. 1 suppose it is competent to contradict 
Capt. Marsh about what he said ; but what this woman said 
about the paternity of the child, it seems to me, is not com- 
petent in any wa}\ • 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. It is part of the whole transac- 
tion. This woman had left her sister there, when she knew her, a 
pure, insane woman, and she was told not to come so often, and 
she sta}'ed awa)\ At last she did go to see her sister, and then 
she found her in this condition. And she made inquiry of her, 
then and there, and then acted upon that inquiry. And there 
is no rule of law on earth, that I know of, that will not allow 
me to put in all that transaction. It has been held that the 
inquiry, on the contrary, — in the olden time, up to very lately, 
the inquiry of the party, of a woman who had a bastard child, 
was made a prerequisite to her fathering the child on to any- 
body, — made the highest species- of evidence. It fixed the 
father, and without it she could not fix the father. And not 
only that, she told where it was got, if I remember right,— and 
I guess I do, because I asked Capt. Marsh if this woman didn’t 
go out berrying. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, His Excellency did ask Capt. 
Marsh if he didn’t use a certain expression to the sister of 
Charlotte Anderson. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; I did not. 
Mr. Brown. Well, you just said you did. 
Gov. Butler. No. Strange you can’t get it. I asked him 
if he ever told anybody. 
Mr. Brown. And now you say he told the sister. 
Gov. Butler. I do. 
Mr. Brown. Now, that, Mr. Chairman, is the farthest 
to which rebuttal could possibly go. 
The Chairman. The question is whether it would not be 
admissible for him to show by this witness that'Capt. Marsh did 
use the expression, 1,4 We know how to make babies up here,” 
or something of that kind, to her. 
Mr. Brown. But certainly it is a new proposition to me that 
an insane woman is a competent witness ; and it is another very 
absurd proposition that what an insane woman says is compe- 
tent testimony. 2804 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. The committee passed upon that in the 
early part of the hearing. 
Mr. Brown. Yes, in the early part of the hearing. Now, is 
it competent to den}’ what Capt. Marsh said in the expression 
referred to. Well, let us see. In the first place, Capt. Marsh 
was asked, not as a part of his direct examination, not at all. 
He was asked by His Excellency that .question. It is a fact 
brought out by him. 
Gov. Butler. Of course. 
Mr. Brown. It is a matter entirely immaterial to this inves- 
tigation. He said he didn’t remember. Now, apply the rule 
that His Excellency has invoked here half a dozen times. You 
could not pursue him on perjury for that. And that His Excel- 
lency says is the invariable rule. If you cannot pursue him on 
perjury, then you cannot rebut. Now could you pursue Capt. 
Marsh for perjury on that? He didn’t make any such statement. 
He didn’t remember an}’ such statement. He didn’t tell us, it 
was possible that he might have used such an expression, or 
something to that effect. Now, it is perfectly evident to my 
mind, it seems to me, under the rules established by the com- 
mittee, under the preceding votes which the committee has taken, 
that it is perfectly incompetent for any part of the story which 
His Excellency says he wants to put in, should be admitted, 
except, possibly,—and it should be limited to that, if at allv— 
whether Capt. Marsh didn’t use the expression referred to to 
this witness — if that is his expression. And I say there is a 
serious question about that. Taking the rule which His Excel- 
lency has himself invoked, that would not be admissible. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care to say anything more about it, 
and I don’t know as it is my turn to say it. 
The Chairman. I understand the law to be that where a 
witness is asked an immaterial question he cannot be contra- 
dicted. If I were to pass upon this question I should say that 
the governor can contradict, in the discretion of the committee, 
the expression of Captain Marsh which has been referred to; 
but the admission of what this woman said as to the paternity 
of her child, the committee have already passed upon. 
Gov. Butler. Not to my knowledge. 
The Chairman. I will submit the question to the committee. 
The question is whether the governor shall be allowed to ask 
the witness as to what Charlotte Anderson said as to the pater- 
nity of her child. 1883.] 
PIOUSE—No. 300. 
2805 
Gov. Butler. That is not the question that I am submitting. 
The Chairman. What is the question, exactly, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. This is the question : Whether, when a rela- 
tive goes to the state almshouse and finds her sister with child, 
having been there so long that it must have been begotten there, 
whether her inquiries and the answer to them can be put in evi- 
dence, when she acted on those inquiries and pursued the inves- 
tigation. 
The Chairman. It might have been in your main case, but 
not in rebuttal, I take it. 
[A vote was taken and the question was rejected.] 
Q. Well, after you had the conversation as to who the father 
of the child was, did you go with Charlotte and the child down 
to Captain Marsh’s office? A. Yes, sir; I did. 
Q. Did you meet Captain Marsh there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What did you say to Captain Marsh, and what did he say 
to you or Charlotte ? 
Mr. Brown. Now, I pray the judgment of the committee. 
I think the witness’s attention should be called to that expres- 
sion. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I can put in the whole conversa- 
tion now. I never heard of a part being put in and a part not. 
Mr. Brown. The witness should be asked whether Captain 
Marsh used that expression. 
Gov. Butler. That would be leading. 
Mr. Brown. You have a perfect right in rebuttal to call at- 
tention to it. If she sa}rs he didn’t, that is the end of it. If 
she says he did, why His Excellency can stop. If I wanted to 
go into it that is another matter. But we are not to have all 
this conversation which took place about matters material and 
immaterial. The whole object of rebuttal is simply for the pur- 
pose of getting at whether Capt. Marsh used that expression in 
the presence of this witness. That is the only question before 
the committee — whether Capt. Marsh used that expression in 
the presence of this witness. 
Gov. Butler. How Capt. Marsh treated this complaint, 
what was said about it, all that he said, are acts of his as the 
head of this institution. 
Mr. Brown. It might have been put in in chief, but not 
now. 
Gov. Butler. This doctrine about new matter never has 2806 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
been held before and never will be again. But I am talk- 
ing— 
The Chairman. [Interrupting.] 
Gov. Butler. I cannot argue against the chairman. But 1 
am talking now under the strictest rule of evidence. 1 am en- 
titled, it seems to me, substantially admitted, to a part of the 
conversation. It takes two sides of a pair of scissors to cut, 
and I therefore have a right to the whole if I can put in any 
part. 
The Chairman. You call this witness, as you say, to contra- 
diet Capt. Marsh as to a particular statement he used. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I call her for more than that. There is 
the difficulty. I call her to show the treatment that these people 
received at his hands. He said it wras universally kind and cour- 
teous. I went all over that, and we had an explosion of pauper 
eloquence upon the question. Now, I want to show but one case, 
and that will be enough. Where a respectable lad}", as respect- 
able looking as an}' of our wives and sisters, went there after 
her unfortunate sister, when the sister came with the child in 
her arms into the presence of the head of the institution — I 
want to see what satisfaction was given, what investigation was 
ordered, what was done to assuage her grief, all that was done. 
And there is no rule, except the rule of prejudice, that will rule 
it out, that I know of. 
The Chairman. Governor, I think the committee will, after 
awhile, resent your slurs upon the committee,. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I have said nothing about the 
committee. Nothing but conscience will point my words. 
The Chairman. Here is a trial that has been going on for 
more than two months. You had the floor here two months 
to try this case. If this woman did visit Capt. Marsh, 
if you knew she visited him, and if attention was 
called to it, it was part of the trial. This investigation must 
terminate sometime. To admit this testimony would be to re- 
try the case. To contradict what Capt. Marsh said in regard 
to this particular phrase that you say he used seems to me to 
be competent. , 
Gov. Butler. To that I answer that now is given to me 
by the favor of the legislature three days to put in my evidence ; 
therefore there must be an end sometime. And I propose to 
use it in such form as I please under the rules of law. And 
now one word. Yesterday I was accused of making an attack 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2807 
upon the committee. I said that certain things would be boy’s 
play; not on the part of the committee, but I was trying to 
argue to them. 
The Chairman. I understood you to reply to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Then that last remark applied to the com- 
mittee, when }’ou said there had been as much bo}T’s play on one 
side as on the other. 
The Chairman. No ; I spoke of the counsel. 
Gov. Butler. Think a moment; 3 011 didn’t refer to the com- 
mittee nor did I. I was referring to the bo3T’s play of the coun- 
sel, who had sent awa3r a paper that the committee were 
investigating. 
The Chairman. I understood 3tou to refer to the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Not at all, sir. The difficulty is I am not the 
accuser. 
The Chairman. We think you are, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I am not the accuser, and the committee — 
it is their conscience, if the3’ have any accusation. 
The Chairman. I don’t understand that the committee have 
an3T accusation in that direction. 
Gov. Butler. When I sa3T prejudice I say there is no rule 
but the rule of prejudice against the case, that I know of, that 
will rule it out. And I do that for the purpose of cautioning 
the committee, after fair opportunity to choose language, when I 
don’t see a full committee here. 
The Chairman. We are not to blame for that, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I am not to blame for that. 
The Chairman. We should like to have them all here. 
Gov. Butler. I must do the best I can with the best material 
God gives me for witnesses. 
The Chairman. I think with the committee the proposition 
is, as far as I know, that the evidence must be strictl3T in rebut- 
tal ; otherwise we never should get through, because the other 
side would be entitled to respond. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; if the legislature chooses to give 
that, I have no objection. 
Mr. Brown. Then, if I understand it, the plan of His Ex- 
cellenC3T, fully developed, is to get in new matter, to which I can- 
not reply on account of an order of the legislature. 
Gov. Butler. I am going to get in plent3’ of new matter, 
but it will be in contradiction of other people. 
The Chairman. The committee are under orders to close the 2808 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apt*. 
hearing Friday night, and they will do so, unless the order is 
rescinded. Now, Governor, if you will repeat the question to 
‘the witness. 
Gov. Butler. M37 question is — take it down, sir — when 
you went there, after having conversed with your sister as to the 
paternity of that child, did go with her to Capt. Marsh and 
speak to him upon the subject, and what did Capt. Marsh say7 to 
3rou, and what did y7ou say to Capt. Marsh? 
Mr. Brown. Wait one moment. 
The Chairman. I don’t think it is competent. The question 
is, shall it be admitted ? 
[The question was rejected.] 
Q. Now, then, did Capt. Marsh put his hand, under those 
circumstances, on the shoulder of Charlotte and say7: “We 
know how to make babies here, don’t we, Charlotte?” A. Yes, 
sir; he did. 
Q. Did he say anything more as to the paternity of the 
child ? 
Mr. Brown. Wait one moment. I pray7 the judgment of the 
committee. He has exhausted the whole purpose of the inquiry7. 
Gov. Butler. I propose to ask precisely7 the question he 
put here to Mr. Doane, when he asked: did he say anything 
about having any7 more money? 
Mr. Brown. That was on direct examination. 
Gov. Butler. I propose to show the negative; that he 
didn’t make any other excuse. 
The Chairman. The committee will vote upon it. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I want a ruling from the committee. 
[The question was rejected.] 
Gov. Butler. Well, I will offer it again when I have a full 
committee. Now, I put simply the question whether there was 
anything else said, and you reject that. 
Q. Now, did you go away7 and leave yTour sister there ? A. 
Yes, sir; I asked for her — 
Mr. Brown. Never mind what she said. 
Gov.. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. Then, I put it to the committee whether the 
onlyr point has not been answered. 
Gov. Butler. Well, then, the committee will have another 
point to decide. I now propose to show that she left directions 
where she could be sent for, in case anything happened to her 
or the child. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2809 
is brought to me, to affect the minds of this investigating com- 
mittee. Brother Brown will bring such as he thinks ought to be 
put in to affect your minds. It isn’t the trial of a cause. I am 
here this hour as I was the first hour I stood here upon this mat- 
ter, and this talk about rebuttal seems to me to be entirely 
wrong. Whenever the committee had enough of evidence to 
convince them of a certain fact, they could say, We don’t want 
to hear anything more upon that subject. That has always 
been in their power. They should be willing to hear every fact 
that tends to show whether there was a right conduct of that 
institution in all its branches and all its wa}’s, and that is the 
rule which should govern, I respectfully submit. And I re- 
spectfully submitted that, not quite in the same words, but very 
early in the investigation —my remembrance would be, the first 
time. Now, I am here to bring such testimony. Mr. Brown 
having brought all that he thinks will enlighten the committee, 
I have a little more that I think will enlighten the committee, 
and I want to have that heard. If the committee won’t hear it, 
why then we shall only be in the condition that they haven’t 
heard all that they might have. That is all. It is a plain com- 
mon-sense matter. You are to hear everything upon the ques- 
tion that may be put, until your minds are convinced that that 
testimony is enough of it, and that that fact is proven ; then you 
are to stop it, but not short of that. Now, if you are convinced 
entirely that Dr. Dixwell told you the truth, }rou can stop me ; 
I cannot help it. But as long as you are in doubt about that, 
I must show all the facts about it, because the question whether 
he told the truth isn’t of a copper’s consequence except as it 
tended to show the condition of things at Harvard. 
Mr. Brown. There is another objection which His Excellency 
has now brought out—that is, that the committee have already 
decided that they would not investigate Harvard College. We 
never went into it originally, except upon the promise of His 
Excellency that he would connect it with Tewksbury, — made 
four times upon the record, and not fulfilled. 
Mr. Mellen. It seems to me we should vote in favor of it. 
I think the question is admissible. If the committee think it is 
right to do just as Mr. Brown suggests, or to omit what he ob- 
jects to, there is no use discussing the matter. 
The Chairman. I do not think that is a fair remark to 
make. 
Mr. Mellen. It seems to me from the remarks in the papers 2810 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that there is an effort to prevent the introduction of any testi- 
mony by the governor, of anything new, if it is going to affect 
the Tewksbury people. I think that is stretching the thing too 
far. I think it is our duty to try and ascertain everything in 
the premises, and if by Frida}’ we are not finished, the legisla- 
ture will take the responsibility of shutting it off". But, in the 
meantime, if there is any evidence that is about to do this insti- 
tution harm, I say no major part of the committee should stand 
in the way of the admission of that evidence because it is going 
to do harm to that institution, on the pretext that it is something 
new, because it is contradictor}’; if it contradicts the testimony 
brought forth by Mr. Brown, I think it ought to be admitted, 
no matter what the consequences are. I think there is more 
time taken up by counsel in discussing it than would be taken if 
the matter were let go in without discussion. 
Mr. Chamberlain. The difficulty, I submit, is this: This 
same class of testimony was put in direct examination. Now, 
no doubt, there could be [a large number of persons brought on 
here to testify, there certainly would be no chance of rebuttal 
from the other side, and, it seems to me, it ought not to be ad- 
mitted. It certainly cannot be rebutted if it is brought in, un- 
less they brought in eight or ten men, which would prolong it if 
put on. For one, I am in hopes this hearing would be closed 
by next Friday. 
Mr. Mellen. We are not so anxious to get in rebuttal 
evidence to defend that institution. If that is the end of the 
gentleman, it may be very well to keep this out, for it is for the 
benefit of parties in defence here. I claim it is our business to 
get the truth. If there is something said which does much 
hurt to the defence here, if they can demonstrate that they can 
contradict it, and show it is false, I wrould be in favor of making 
a strenuous effort to prolong the hearing to enable them to 
make their defence. But I think this matter should not be kept 
out on account of a technicality. This committee determined 
at the start it would not be governed by nice legal, technical 
points ; and it is not now. It wasn’t composed of lawyers. It 
was composed like other legislative committees ; that whatever 
was submitted should be determined from a common-sense 
standpoint, and not from technical standpoints ; otherwise, it 
would be composed of lawyers, and they would be governed by 
these technical points, but it is not; and I think we should be 
governed by common-sense rules, and not by what lawyers 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2811 
think would be the practice of a court. To my mind this 
evidence is admissible, viewing it from a layman’s standpoint. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I trust all the other members of the 
committee are as desirous of arriving at the truth in the matter 
as the last gentleman is. 
The Chairman. I suppose they are. I suppose that after 
this trial has been going on three months it might be well to 
refer to some rules of law. In my opinion, it wasn’t any ques- 
tion of law for a man to testif}7 that these babies were not there 
because he didn’t see any there. That was the testimon}7 of 
Dr. Porter, and it seems to me it would not be in the nature of 
rebuttal. 
[The committee voted to reject the question, three favoring 
admission and four against.] 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Dr. McArthur, did you see what 
was done with the remains of dissection during those four years 
that you were there ? 
Mr. Brown. I pra}T the judgment of the committee that this 
isn’t in rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. It is in contradiction of the witness who said 
something was done. He says something else was done. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency has already put in what was 
done with the remains. Now, if he wants to contradict his 
own witness — 
Gov. Butler. That wouldn’t be in rebuttal. 
Mr. Brown. The defence have substantially admitted that 
same thing took place. The only difference between the 
evidence offered by the defence and that offered by the gover- 
nor is this : that the defence went one step further, and showed 
that all parts of human bodies taken off in process of dissection 
were put into boxes and afterwards buried. That His Excel- 
lency did not show when he was putting in his evidence in chief. 
Now, if you purpose to show by this witness that the contents 
of those boxes did not go to Forest Hills or any other place, 
that, perhaps, would be in rebuttal; but simply what was done 
with the remains in the dissecting-room, I understand there is 
substantially no disagreement. Consequently, there is no occa- 
sion for putting in this evidence, as it is not in rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. If the defence propose to admit that instead 
of being buried they were thrown down into the vault, I don’t 
want to put it in. 2812 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. I believe it was not contradicted at all, up 
to a certain period. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. It was shown, up to a certain period, that the}’ 
were thrown in the vault, and that that vault was not subject to 
entrance by lobsters and eels, as His Excellency asserted, and 
no water was admitted except as it came through the brick-work, 
and at stated intervals the contents of the vault were taken out 
and buried. That was what we showed. We showed that sub- 
sequently there was a change. The contents were put into pails, 
that the contents of the pails were put into boxes, and the boxes 
delivered to the undertaker and buried. 
Gov. Butler. Now I want to contradict that storj’. 
Mr. Brown. What story? 
Gov. Butler. Pretty much all you said about it. I want to 
show that the pails were emptied at night into the vault, and 
that then the larger portion of the contents,—what was taken off 
by the dissecting-knife and thrown into the pail,—and then that 
the larger portions were not buried, not sent away to be buried 
in the day-time and as a proper interment, but that they were sent 
away in carts at night. It simply contradicts all the stor}’ that 
these people get up. 
Mr. Brown. I submit that that is not in rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. Well, it contradicts }’our stories. 
The Chairman. It contradicts what Dr. Porter said. There 
is no contradiction by anybody that the remains were thrown 
into this vault up to ’69. Now, if the governor proposes to con- 
tradict what Dr. Porter says was done after that, it seems to me 
it is admissible. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You were there until how long? 
A. I was there until the spring of 1872. 
Gov. Butler. 1 want to show what was done with the bodies 
before they were dissected, and what was done afterwards. 
Mr. Brown. Then I submit, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, 
that it is entirety new matter and not in rebuttal. 
The Chairman. The question was asked what he knows of 
what was done. I think that is entirely competent. Let us 
see what the next question would be. 
Gov. Butler. Suppose he knows, and if he answers it he 
does, then I want to ask what was done with them. I can put 
it in leading form, and I will deal with perfect frankness with 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2813 
the committee, and I don’t want to get anything by side wind at 
all. 
The Chairman. I think it is competent to show anything to 
contradict anything said by the phj’sicians as to the disposition of 
the remains after dissection. 
Mr. Brown. That is, after 1869. 
Gov. Butler. If there was a different mode from what they 
state. 
The Chairman. The question may be answered, unless it is 
desired to pass upon it. 
Mr. Brown. I object to the question, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Then I will submit it to the committee. 
Let us have the question put, Governor, exactly. 
Gov. Butler. I will put it exactly, and make it in leading 
form, so as to bring out what was done first with the smaller 
portions which were dissected off — what was done with them — 
and what was done then with the larger portions, like the bones, 
which wouldn’t go into the pail. 
Mr. Brown. To that I object. 
The Chairman. You are contradicting Dr. Dixwell now, 
Governor. The answer may contradict your own witness. 
Gov. Butler. I must take the risk of that. I will take the 
risk of that. 
The Chairman. Of course that goes to its competency. 
The committee may vote upon it. I don’t care to express an 
opinion. 
[On motion of Mr. Mellen it was voted that the question be 
admitted.] 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, Doctor, won’t you tell us 
exactly. Begin at the beginning, even at the risk — A. The 
soft parts, the waste matter that was dissected off during the 
day was thrown into a bucket. Each table is supplied with a 
large bucket, and the parts are thrown into that, and at night 
they are removed by the janitor. The coarser, drier parts are 
thrown into the vault; and the softer parts, if the buckets were 
not full, or containing but a small quantity, I think was thrown 
into a drain, or down into a place back which was used for 
drainage purposes — thrown away. So far as I observed this 
was done at night. The larger parts, the bones, that were not 
taken away by the students after dissection — and a great many 
of them were taken away by the students for the purpose of 
making anatomical specimens—I can only say a few nights 2814 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
I dissected there late, until two o’clock in the morning, and dur- 
ing that time a wagon or cart came to the college and took 
away the larger part, and cleaned up all the larger parts that 
Were left or abandoned by the students. This was under the 
direction of the janitor. 
Q. Now, Doctor, while 3*011 were there did 3*011 see any 
bodies skinned and the skin taken away7 for the purpose of tan- 
ning? 
Mr. BroWn. I object to the question. 
Gov. Butler. What is the objection ? 
Mr. Brown. The objection is that that is not in rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. Why not? 
Mr. Brown. Wli3r, in the first place, it has nothing to do and 
there is no pretence that it has anything to do with Tewksbury. 
The committee have ruled upon it several times. If it had any*- 
thing to do with the case, or if it could be shown to have had 
anything to do with the case, it should have been put in in 
chief. It is not in any7 wa3* in rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. The point again here is a very simple one. 
They brought all the doctors that they7 could get up to sa3* that 
no skin was taken off or allowed to be taken off for the pur- 
pose of being tanned. I propose to show, by this and other 
witnesses, that it was done by the students for the very* purpose 
of being tanned; and the coarser skins for the purpose of being 
made into slippers; and the finer skins, from ladies’ breasts, for 
the purpose of being made into gloves. I have heard it said 
here I was making a great deal of a freak of a student. I pro- 
pose to show that for years it has been done for an industry ; 
for I take it, when bodies are skinned and the skins taken away 
for the purpose of being put into commercial value, that that is 
an industry7. Now, I have heard over and over and over again, 
that I haven’t connected Harvard with Tewrksbury*. Why, their 
Very* report is here that so many hundred bodies of men, women, 
and children were actually supplied to Harvard. I said I would 
connect Harvard with Tewksbury*. Their justification is, that 
they gave them to Harvard by* the hundreds — many more hun- 
dreds than they7 own up to, whenever we can get those books, 
which I suppose we never shall — and that Tewksbury* took a 
bond that those remains should not be used for anything but 
anatomical science ; and my charge, not against Harvard but 
against Tewksbury, is that with the duty upon them to see what 
was done with the property which they7 were allowed by law — 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2815 
we all agree upon that, that it should be used for a specific pur- 
pose — whether they made inquiry, and we have heard them all, 
and neither trustee, nor superiptendent, nor book-keeper, nor 
anybody but Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., — and he hasn’t been on 
the stand — made any inquiry whatever as to what was done 
with them. I want to show, that for a long series of years, 
there has been a constant custom of taking away the skins as a 
matter of industry. Now, it is said that I went into that in 
chief. I did to a little degree. The answer was, you don’t show 
that they came from Tewksbury. I will by and by make quite 
clear in one instance, and I was told that, when I offered the 
evidence while the defence was going in, I must go to the time 
of rebuttal — that was what the chairman told me in the case of 
Eckland’s skin, whom we had a mark on. 
The Chairman. I don’t remember having made any such re- 
mark. 
• Gov. Butler. I think you will find it in the record. 
The Chairman. I said you could not interrupt the defence to 
put in original evidence. 
Gov. Butler. Now, what does it do ? It rebuts and meets 
the defendant’s case, which is, that the}’, acting as public offi- 
cers, did their duty in the disposal of these remains. This 
thing shouldn’t have been going on with proper investigation 
for years and years, and should not have been going on. It 
horrifies everybody that it should go on. I complain that they 
made no investigation. If it was a freak of a single student, 
done in the night-time, when nobody could know about it to 
stop it, why that is one thing. If it was done, and the students 
spoke of it and claimed the parts of the body as their own, and 
took the skins and said, We paid for them and this is ours, and 
we will-make boots of it, or slippers of it, and gloves of it,— why 
then it is a thing we ought to know, and it ought to be known 
to the people of the Commonwealth as well as the legislature, 
that there may be some legislation against it if it is necessary, 
as it would be necessary if such was the fact. Now, here is a 
committee of investigation. I am ready to prove this custom. 
If you rule it out, I have done my duty, and I have no doubt 
yqu will do yours. 
Mr. Brown. There is no pretence that this is newly discov- 
ered evidence, and the presumption therefore is, that it has been 
known for some time. Certainly, all the means of information 
upon the record as it now stands, were just as accessible to His 2816 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Excellency on the 1st of January, as they are to-day—just as 
accessible. Now, he don’t offer any excuse for that whatever, 
and this is simply repeating. It is arguing, it is saying, Well, 
I haven’t made out anything out of this skin business so far. 
Gov. Butler. I have said nothing of that sort. 
Mr. Brown. The charge that all this was the freak of a stu- 
dent strikes me with a great deal of force, and I am inclined to 
think that His Excellency believed that that is the wray it should 
be put; and now I want to give him another chance. Well, I 
am not here to defend Harvard College, except as it is con- 
nected with my professional duty to Tewksbury. But I don’t 
believe, as I said before some time ago,— I don’t believe, without 
an}' notice, that there is any pretence that we knew anything 
about it, without any notice to Harvard College, in the absence 
of Harvard College and its officers, that this investigation should 
go on, except upon some promise that it should be connected 
with Tewksbury; and then the question may be fairly raised, 
how many promises you are going to make before you have 
them fulfilled. We have had four already. 
Gov. Butler. To the new matter I want to speak. I undoubt 
edly might have used this evidence before if I had had it. And 
perhaps some of it I should. I don’t put it upon the ground of 
newly discovered evidence, because that would be a question to 
be raised after the end of the investigation, But this evidence, 
— most of it, — all this was done in secret, you must remem- 
ber. Most of this evidence has come to me — that I have not 
put in — as the trial went on. This gentleman, since I closed 
my case, happened to speak of the matters to friends; that man 
happened to be a friend of mine and he told me of it, and I saw 
him for the first time this morning for five minutes. I sent to 
ascertain and summon him here. But I put it upon the ground 
that at airy time that this is not evidence to try Harvard Col- 
lege. They sold the parts of the bodies to students through 
their janitor, and most that bought them did just what they 
pleased with them. They took away as much as they pleased ; 
the}' left what they chose ; and, if I am right in this testimony, 
— if am right I propose to show that when Dr. Porter and 
others came here and told you that that wasn’t the case, they 
told you what they didn’t know to be true. That is all. 
The Chairman. It has seemed to me all the way that the 
tanning of human skins is entirely immaterial, unless it was 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2817 
shown to be done with the knowledge of the management of 
Tewksburj’. That is the view I have taken of it. 
Gov. Butler. My proposition is that they ought to have 
known it, and investigated into it. That is the only difference 
between us. 
The Chairman. We look at it differently, of course. That 
is m}’ view. We were told at one time that we were to have 
knowledge — the fifth hearing — “ that some dead bodies were de- 
livered at Harvard and some at the other schools ; and some were 
not. Some were not delivered anywhere. Some were skinned, 
and the skin sent forward to be tanned.” We haven’t any evi- 
dence about it. It seems to me there isn’t a scintilla of evidence 
about it. 
Gov. Butler. I have shown that the bodies came from 
Tewksbury. That is the skin, I submit — 
The Chairman. It is shown that some bodies came from 
Tewksbury ; but not all that came to Harvard. 
Gov. Butler. And the committee refused to let me show 
how many they got from other places, and shut me out. 
The Chairman. Harvard College is not on trial here. 
Mr. Mellen. I ask to have the question stated again. 
The Chairman. Governor, put the question. 
Gov. Butler. The question is, Did you see, while you were 
there, any bodies, or parts of bodies, skinned by students in the 
dissecting-room, and were }rou informed, at the time the skin- 
ning was done, the purpose for which the skinning was done, — 
to make them into slippers and gloves ? That is the question. 
The Chairman. That is a question for the committee to vote 
upon. 
Mr. Mellen. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, if that was a 
practice at the Harvard medical institution, — if these bodies 
came from Tewksbury, and it was a matter of some notoriety, 
as it seems to me it was, and as the governor is trying to prove 
it, that Tewksbury is somewhat responsible, and that Thomas 
J. Marsh, the assistant superintendent, who has got that book 
we want so much to see, and that we desire to produce and 
inspect it, and that these skins were sold, as the governor sug- 
gests, to develop a new industry in this State, — technically 
whether it is our duty to inquire or not; but I think, as the 
committee on charitable institutions, I think it is our duty to 
inquire into it if that was the custom, and I think we should 
permit this witness to testify if that was the practice. 2818 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
[The committee voted to reject the question ; 3 for admission, 
6 against,.] 
[A recess of five minutes was taken.] 
Mr. Mellen. Now, Mr. Chairman, I propose to test my 
individual right as a member of this committee to get informa- 
tion, and I will tell why. If you recollect towards the close of 
the governor’s part, the governor expressed himself somewhat 
after this fashion: That he would close, — I can’t give his 
language, but the idea, — but he expected to be able to put in 
new evidence later on. There was no objection made. I am of 
the opinion if there was he would have then striven to have got 
in his new evidence at that time. That being the case, I pro- 
test against the attempt of the majority of the committee to 
keep out such evidence as he now desires to get in. 
The Chairman. Fortunately for us this time the vote in- 
cluded one of the minority. 
Mr. Mellen. Well, that may be, one out of a half-dozen. 
I am sorry for the minority that that one made a mistake in 
voting with the Republican majority. 
The Chairman. I presume the minority can take care of it- 
self without your defending it. 
Mr. Mellen. It was a mistake, and he, probably, in think- 
ing it over will come to that conclusion. Now, sir, I propose to 
ask this witness a question, and ask just the question that the 
Governor asked; and I maintain it is my right, as a member of 
this committee. If I am to make a report as a member of this 
committee I want all the facts, and I propose, if I can, to get 
them. 
The Chairman. That raises the question whether 3’ou or the 
committee is in charge of the hearing. 
Mr. Mellen. It is m3’ right, as a member of the legislature, 
to secure information, and if that information is at hand, I 
maintain, as a matter of common sense, that if the use 
their might, because of having a majority, to debar me from 
getting the information that I believe to be vital, that the3’ do a 
gross injustice. 
The Chairman. You ma3T ask the question, and the witness 
need not answer it till we see what it is. 
Q. (B3’ Mr. Mellen.) Now, sir, I wish 3rou to tell me, the 
committee, what the practice was, or if it was a practice, of 
skinning am’ of the corpses at the Harvard medical institution ? 
The Chairman. You need not answer till the committee 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2819 
decide. The question is whether the witness shall answer the 
question ? 
Mr. Mellen. I maintain that any member of the committee 
has a right to ask a question. I maintain that the chairman has 
time and time again asked the counsel, “ have you anything to 
say?” without consulting the committee. He has given opin- 
ions at times wdien it seemed to me that it was flighty indiscreet, 
when I didn’t interfere. 
The Chairman. If you had objected the committee would 
have had to have settled it. 
Mr. Mellen. I maintain on this matter that it is my right to 
get this information as a member of this committee. I wish, 
Mr. Chairman, to have this distinctly understood, that I have 
got the privilege of acting for the committee, so far as I am 
concerned, in the House of Representatives, when the report 
comes in. I can make a report individually that may differ from 
the report of all the others that you may make jointly. That is 
my privilege. Now, if that is my privilege, have }rou a right 
to debar me from the information that may enable me to make 
that kind of a report ? I think not. That is what you assume 
to have. I say it is my right to get this information from this 
doctor who was at Harvard at that time, if he can give the in- 
formation. 
The Chairman. I will put the question. 
Mr. Wolcott. I think, if this matter is to be discussed at 
length, the proper place to discuss it is in executive session of 
the committee. 
The Chairman. I don’t think there will be any prolonged 
debate on it. 
Mr. Murphy. I think the position, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. 
Mellen takes on this question is identical with the stand I took 
here at an early stage of the hearing. If I remember right, the 
chairman accused me at that time of trying to buldoze the com- 
mittee, or something similar. I think the minority has a cer- 
tain right, and they should have the right to have the informa- 
tion the}’ desire in order to make a report, — if it comes to such 
a pass that a minority shall make a report. I look upon this 
committee here somewhat in the light of a board of judges, and, 
if I am correctly informed, a judge on the bench has a perfect 
right to ask any question he sees fit, that he thinks has a bear- 
ing upon the case, and he cannot be prevented from doing so 
by the rest of the judges on the bench with him. 2820 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
The Chairman. The bench controls the judges, I take it. 
Mr. Murphy. This is the understanding I have of the mat- 
ter, and until I get my information about the control from some 
other source, I will still hold to that understanding of it. 
Mr. Mellen. Another thing, Mr. Chairman — 
Mr. Learnaiid. I move we adjourn to executive session, if 
this matter is to be further discussed. 
Mr. Murphy. I hardly think it is necessary to adjourn to 
executive session. I think the matter can be settled here, now, 
with less expenditure of time than in executive session. 
Mr. Mellen. I wish to say again, Mr. Chairman — 
Mr. Learnard. I don’t withdraw the motion, Mr. Chair- 
man. 
The Chairman. Then it is moved we go into executive ses- 
sion. That is debatable, of course. 
Mr. Mellen. Most certainly it is debatable. 
Mr. Murphy. I think the motion is made, Mr. Chairman* 
with the intention of wasting time. 
The Chairman. I think the committee is ready to vote. 
Mr. Mellen. Well, if the committee have made up their 
minds in advance that will vote for everything that Coun- 
sel Brown suggests, they are ready to vote. 
The Chairman. Our minds are all right this morning, as we 
have a conspicuous example. 
Mr. Mellen. Out of five votes, I say, he may have voted 
with you once ; but I think he has made a grievous mistake. 
The Chairman. I think he can defend himself. I will put 
the question. 
Mr. Learnard. I withdraw the motion for adjournment, and 
call for the previous question. 
The Chairman. There is no previous question in such a case 
as this. 
Mr. Mellen. There is another proposition on the part of the 
majority against the minority, calling for the previous question. 
It is in the line of muzzling, stopping off the expression of any 
opinion with which he is in conflict. I sa3T it is wrong; but it 
seems to me it is in keeping with the polky of some of the 
rancorous papers, and with the policy of somebody not so far off 
as the papers. 
The Chairman. We excluded the newspapers here once on a 
similar occasion. 
Mr. Mellen. Let me sa}' that you didn’t exclude the line of 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2821 
policy which I now claim as a right, in the early part of this 
hearing. You then acted as all committees act; and let me 
call your attention to that fact, that in your experience and in 
my experience upon a legislative committee, you have never 
been debarred from asking a question of somebody who may 
appear before the committee ; never, sir. It was never attemped 
till it was attempted in this committee. 
The Chairman. It is simply a question who runs the com- 
mittee, the majorit}’, or whether one man can run it; that is all 
there is to it. 
Mr. Melcen. It is nothing of the kind. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I move we adjourn; we don’t want this 
further discussed. 
Gov. Butler. Allow me to make a suggestion to the com- 
mittee, as amicus curiae, and that is that the previous question 
is never operative in committee of the whole. 
The Chairman. I have suggested, Governor, it is not opera- 
tive here. I rule that there is no motion for the previous ques- 
tion in. 
Mr. Murphy. I should like to say, before we go into execu- 
tive session, if the majorit}7 propose to vote that way on that 
matter, that this question has been up before, two or three times, 
and the members of the committee have never been prevented 
from asking an}r question they saw fit, so far as I remember it; 
and it does seem to me that at this late stage of the hearing, 
under the circumstances, as though it was hardly the proper 
thing to prevent any member of the committee from asking a 
question which he considers will give him information to make 
his report. It does seem to me, if such a policy is taken up 
at this late stage, as though it w7as preconcerted and intended 
on the part of the committee, as though the thing was all under- 
stood. 
Mr. Wolcott. The gentleman knows nothing about it, Mr. 
Chairman ; and if he does state that, he undertakes to state 
that which he has no means of knowing. 
Mr. Murphy. No means of positive knowledge ; I acknowl- 
edge that. 
Mr. Wolcott. The gentleman should be more careful in 
drawing inferences. 
Mr. Murphy. I cannot help drawing inferences when they 
are so strong they look like facts. 
The Chairman. When the committee votes by a majority of 2822 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
six to three they won’t have a certain question answered, I think 
they have a right to insist that the question shall not be an- 
swered. 
Mr. Risteen. I should like to ask if it has not been the cus- 
tom for the chairman and other members of this committee to 
ask various questions? 
The Chairman. I have. 
Mr. Risteen. That were not exactly in the line, or not 
allowmd, or not thought of at the time of the examination. 
The Chairman. They have never been objected to. 
Mr. Risteen. They have never been objected to, and the 
chairman has asked more questions of that kind than an}7 other 
member of the committee. 
The Chairman. Certainly ; and they have not been objected 
to. When they are objected to the committee will have to de- 
cide. 
Mr. Murphy. I should never have thought of objecting, be- 
cause I thought it nothing more than courtesy and right to 
allow him to. 
The Chairman. After a vote of six to three, of both parties, 
— if parties are to be brought in here, —on each side of this 
question, I take it the committee has a right to control the 
matter. 
Mr. Murphy. And will the majority of the committee pre- 
vent the minority from getting vital information, to be used in 
making up their report? Don’t you think that it is rather a 
dangerous policy and power to let the majority have ? 
The Chairman. No; there must be an end to all things. 
They cannot prevent your asking a question, but they can pre- 
vent its being answered. 
Mr. Murphy. What is the use of asking it, then? 
Mr. Mellen. That is absurd. 
The Chairman. That is the parliamentary rule, I take it. 
Mr. Mellen. I take it, it is not the parliamentary rule for 
any majority of the committee to prevent me from getting infor- 
mation upon a subject which shall assist me, as well as the other 
ten members of the committee, when that information is at hand 
and can be known. Then, I say, it is contrary to common 
sense when the ten, if it be ten, endeavor to debar me,— unless 
what I ask is ridiculous, and no man dare intimate that is the 
case now. I am asking for information that the committee should 
get, and it is only debarred by the majority on the score that it 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2823 
is new ; that is all, — that, and what I may suspect, because it 
may be damaging to their friends. 
Mr. Chester. We are now on the fifty-eighth hearing. 
The Chairman. The fifty-ninth, isn’t it? 
Mr. Chester. The fifty-eighth, I think. 
The Chairman. Well, it is bad enough, any way. 
Mr. Chester. I think that the gentlemen who are now so 
strenuous that they may be permitted to ask this question, after 
the committee have once ruled upon it, are asking more than is 
fair from the members of the committee, who have given their 
time so patiently to all these hearings. Now, I don’t wish to 
be invidious to my friends from Worcester and Boston, but I 
must say I think they could have got just as much information 
upon all the points pertaining to this case if they had been 
present at every hearing, and put their questions in at the time 
the witnesses were on, as they can now by taking this time, 
which is the very last of the session of the committee, almost. 
Mr. Mellen. That is ridiculous ; this gentleman was not on 
the stand before. 
The Chairman. Mr. Chester has the floor. 
Mr. Mellen. So we could not have got that information. 
Mr. Chester. I don’t speak very often, and I hope I may be 
permitted to say what I have to say. It may not amount to 
anything, but I hope the gentleman will have the courtesy to 
wait. 
Mr. Mellen. Go on ; I certainly won’t debar you. 
Mr. Chester. I said the gentleman could not have got the 
information, not from this witness, but from the other witnesses, 
the doctors who were here, on this very question. But no ques- 
tions were aske.d of them about their knowledge of skinning, or 
anything of that kind ; and now, at this late day, when the 
whole force of State detectives have been scouring the State to 
get witnesses in this direction, and only one witness has been 
obtained, I think it is not fair to the rest of us, that we should 
go into a new line of evidence, which the opportunity has been 
repeatedly given to go in upon, and take up the time of our 
committee, now, to protract this hearing beyond the time which 
it should be. We haVe been limited by the direct vote of the 
legislature, to report on Tuesday, and I submit that we should 
not enter into any new line of evidence, and bring up any ques- 
tion which has been decided as this has, now. It has been de- 2824 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
tided fairly. And if anything is to govern people, I suppose it 
is majorities. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, there is an inconsistency in 
the remarks of the gentleman. He says the opportunity was 
presented of asking these questions before, and before he con- 
cludes, he sa}rs this is new matter. Now, if it is new matter, 
there was never an opportunity given to ask the questions. 
Now, I wish to say another thing to the gentleman. I say it is 
contemptible for any member of the committee to keep throw- 
ing out the fact that somebody was not in attendance as many 
times as he. I am willing to accord him the — 
Mr. Chester. The gentleman will do me the justice of say- 
ing I have not thrown it out before. 
Mr. Mellen. It has been done by the gentleman, now. 
Mr. Chester. I think I have reason to say what I have. 
Mr. Mellen. Perhaps you have, but I think it is contempt- 
ible for men to be telling of their virtues here ; howr well they 
have been in attendance. I haven’t found fault with what has 
been done in my absence ; I haven’t tried to undo it; but this is 
in my presence, this is information, which the governor thinks is 
of importance, and this witness can give it. It is new evidence, 
my friend says. If it is, I want it. I think the committee 
should want it; if they do not, then I shall test my right as a 
member of the House, as a member of this committee, sent out 
to get information as to the management or mismanagement of 
this institution. It is my right that I have this information. 
I ask this question that I may get this information, that I may 
give it to my fellowr-members of the legislature, to do wTith it 
as they see fit, — to find out w'hether they look at it as I do, as 
of sufficient importance to say there was a wrong. 
Mr. Murphy. I should like to say, Mr. Chairman, that this 
is the first time, since I have been present at the hearings, that 
any of the members have thrown any slurs at my head in regard 
to absenteeism. I can only say this: that I think the gentle- 
man must be very much mistaken, and I should appreciate his 
kindness more, if he had been a little nearer the truth than 
what he was. 
Mr. Chester. Mr. Chairman, I will not answer the gentle- 
man at this time. 
Mr. Murphy. I think you had better not. 
Mr. Chester. I am not afraid to answer j-ou ; I want you to 
understand that. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2825 
Mr. Mitrpiiy. I want you to answer. 
The Chairman. I think we are limiting the time of the 
governor by this discussion ; I don’t object, however. 
Mr. Chamberlain. It must be a very curious investigation, 
going on for months, when one single member, if ten men had 
voted that evidence was not admissible, should ask as his right 
that that evidence should be admitted. I only say that that 
must be a very curious investigation. 
The Chairman. I will put the question, if there is nothing 
further to be said. 
Mr. Mellen. I only wish to show here what took place at 
an early stage of our proceedings, — page 24, volume first, — to 
support the position I now assume. 
“Now, for my satisfaction,” — this was what I said then, — “now 
for my satisfaction as a member of the committee and as a member of 
the House, I wish to repeat Gov. Butler’s question, and I wisli to 
know if you saw the bones of those dissected infants on the same 
table with the bones of animals that were dissected?” 
The committee permitted that. 
The Chairman. That was the first hearing, three months 
ago, when it was in the discretion of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Three months? 
The Chairman. The twenty-ninth of March, Governor, pretty 
near three months, — a little more. 
Mr. Brown. You have called it four, twice, Governor. 
Mr. Mellen. If it was right then, it is right now. 
The Chairman. It was in the discretion of the committee. 
Mr. Learnard. Question ! 
The Chairman. If there is nothing more to be said, I will 
put the question. 
[Mr. Mellen’s question was excluded by a vote of 3 to 5.] 
Mr. Mellen. I defer to the will of the committee, but I 
give notice to the committee that I propose to bring the matter 
before the House and ascertain, this afternoon, whether I have 
got the right or not. 
The Chairman. You will do in the House as you are 
advised. 
Mr. Mellen. I will do in the House, not as I am advised, 
but as I please, sir. 
The Chairman. Exactly; that is what I said. Proceed, 
Governor, if you have anything further. 2826 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Under the ruling of the committee, I have no 
further need of this witness. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. You went to the Cambridge medical school, the Harvard 
Medical School, in the fall of ’07 ? A. 1 think it was 1867, sir ; 
I looked for my cards of admission last night and failed to find 
them; I think it was in ’67. 
Q. How old were you then, Doctor? A. I have not figured 
that up ; I am 51 now. 
Q. Well, then, you stayed there four years? A. I stayed 
more than four 3rears altogether. I was there nearly four years 
before I took my degree, and I remained about the college and 
dispensary and so on, for more than a year after that. I had 
admission to all parts, free of expense. 
Q. And then you went to Lynn and settled, did you? A. 
No, I did not, sir. 
Q. Where did you go? A. I went to Cambridge and re- 
mained there a few months, and then went to Lynn,— not to 
Cambridge, to Charlestown. 
Q. And then you went to Lynn? A. Then went to Lynn. 
Q. When did }rou go to Lynn? A. I went to Lynn in the 
summer of ’72, in July. 
Q. And you have been there ever since? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you have stuck pretty close to your business? A. 
I think I have. 
Q. Don’t come to Boston very often? A. Oh, I do occa- 
sionally, now ; I don’t work so hard as T used to. 
Q. Dixwell visit you in Lynn, occasionally? A. Dixwell 
has been to Lynn, perhaps twice, at my ollice. 
Q. But you haven’t been to Boston to inquire about him? 
A. No, sir ; I have not. 
Q. You haven’t watched the newspapers, to see'what the 
newspapers said about him? A. I read the newspapers pretty 
closely. 
Q. Do you recollect reading in the Boston Post of July 2, 
1861, an article called, “ Dixwell Exposed”? A. No, sir; 1 
don’t read the Post, I read the Advertiser. 
Q. You don’t read the Boston Post? A. Veiy seldom. 
Q. July 2, 1881, I should say; you didn’t read the Post of 
that day ? A. I don’t remember. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2827 
Q. An article entitled “ Dixwell Exposed”? A. I may 
have seen it; 1 judge not. 
Q. Do yon remember to have heard about the controversy 
between Dr. Dixwell and the Italian doctor, Dr. Pagani, I think 
it was, where there was a duel to be fought? A. No, I don’t. 
Q. Don’t remember that? A. No; I don’t remember any- 
thing of that kind. 
Q. Where Dixwell summoned the doctor to fight a duel? 
A. I don’t remember that. 
Q. Did you ever hear he was expelled from his position as an 
ollicer connected with the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty 
to Children? A. I have heard that there was some misunder- 
standing in the board or committee, and he was either expelled 
or resigned, I don’t know which. 
Q. When did you hear that? A. Oh, I don’t know; I saw 
that in the papers. 
Q. Saw that in the papers? A. Yes. 
Q. Did }rou hear, in connection with that, that he hadn’t 
properly accounted for the funds of the society? A. No, sir ; 
I did not. 
Q. Did you also hear, in connection with that same matter, 
that he had been taking fees from foreigners who came here to 
Boston ? A. I did not. 
Q. Of $10 and $20, under pretence of assisting them in 
getting their children into some institution, and then leaving 
them in distress? A. I never heard anything of the kind. 
Q. Never heard of anything of that kind? Well, did you 
ever hear of a controversy between Mr. Dixwell and Cicsar 
Carrifer, an Italian? A. I did not. 
Q. Did you ever hear of the society organized by Dr. Dix- 
well, known as the Society of the Red Cross? A. No, sir. 
Q. For the purpose of taking care of children? Never 
heard about that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever read the publication in the newspapers in 
regard to Dr. Dixwell’s obtaining money from one August 
Rozie, an Italian, under false pretences? A. I don’t remember 
l ever did. 
Q. In October, 1880? A. No, sir ; I don’t remember that 
I did. 
Q. Did you ever hear of his picking up children and keep- 
ing them, and demanding money for their return? A. No, 
sir. 2828 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Never heard of that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never read anything about it in the newspapers? A. 
Never, that I remember. 
Mr. Mellen. I would suggest that Mr. Brown read the 
artiele. [Referring to a newspaper which Mr. Brown held in 
his hand.] 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
Mr. Mellen. Let us get the whole of it. 
Gov. Butler. The difficulty is, I am afraid it would not pan 
out. 
Mr. Brown. Well, this is good Democratic authority. 
Gov. Butler. The same sort of Democracy that was in it 
the day or two before election, as an advertisement, 1 suppose. 
I should like to know how much was paid for the article; do 
you know? 
Mr. Brown. Well, the article says here at the head of it, 
“On account of the deep interest manifested by many of our 
prominent citizens as to ” — 
Gov. Butler. You won’t read the article. 
Mr. Brown. “As to the ” — 
Gov. Butler.* Stop a moment! 
Mr. Brown. You wanted to know how much was paid for 
it. 
Gov. ButYer. Does it state in there ? 
Mr. Brown. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Then, what did you read it for? 
Mr. Brown. Because }rou asked the question, and I wanted 
to show what the fact was. 
Gov. Butler. I asked what was paid, and then you under- 
took to read the article, when you admit it don’t say what was 
paid. 
Mr. Brown. It don’t say there was anything paid; on the 
contrary, it says it was not paid for, but that the matter was 
published on account of the deep interest in this matter, in this 
swindler. 
Q. Did you ever hear of the controversy between Dr. Dix- 
well and Elizabeth I. Pinkham, which took place in October, 
’77? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Do you think these are proper questions to 
be asked? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. He says he never heard anything 
affecting his reputation or his character, and I want to know if 1883.] 
HOUS ft — No. 300. 
2829 
ho understood this. The same questions you put to a witness- 
over in Cambridge in reference to the Boston Herald. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; the questions I asked at Cam- 
bridge are not subject to your criticism here. 
Mr. Brown. I know; but it is good precedent, sometimes, 
to take you at your word. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I am glad you have such a good 
opinion of me as to take everything I do as a precedent for 
you. The compliment is not a great one, but I thank you. 
Q. Did you ever hear of what took place in February, 1871, 
in regard to the controversy between Dixwell and Joseph Cas- 
trine? A. I don’t remember. 
Q. You did hear of his being dismissed from this society 
called the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. 
Gov. Butler, lie did not say so. 
Q. You saw something about it, you said? A. I said I 
saw something in the papers about it,— that there was a misun- 
derstanding in committee, but I do not know whether I under- 
stood it that he was discharged from his office or whether he re- 
signed his office. I knew that he was out of his office ; and, if 
you will allow me, Mr. Chairman, to say in regard to this mat- 
ter,— when I met him,— if you will permit me to make this re- 
mark,— when I met him at Parker’s, the reason why I asked 
this question, I suspected he was on some charitable work, 
when he was tilling his hamper; I saw him pa}' a dollar and a 
half to the waiter for the provisions. I said, “ Dixwell, are 
you going picnicing to-day, filling your hamper?” “ No,” said 
he, I am not.” Said he, “ As you know, I do not hold the 
office that 1 formerly held, but to-day I found four little chil- 
dren destitute and hungry, and I have taken them to my office, 
and I buy this to feed them.” That is the last time I have seen 
Dr. Dixwell. 
Q. Then you don’t mean to say you never heard anything 
against his character? A. Yes; 1 do mean to say I never 
heard anything derogatory to Dr. Dixwell’s character till this 
investigation began. I say that what I have heard, what I 
knew, my information came from the newspapers. 
Q. You didn’t consider the newspaper report that he had 
been dismissed, or something of that kind, derogatory to his 
character ? % 
Gov. Butler. He didn’t see any such newspaper report. I 
object to that question, [To the witness.] Stop a moment! 2830 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. It was a matter that interested me at that 
time very little and passed from my mind. I haven’t thought 
of Dr. Dixwell. 
Gov. Butler. He said he didn’t hear whether he was dis- 
missed or resigned ; why leave out the rest of the question ? 
Mr. Brown. I put my own questions, usually. 
Gov. Butler. I know you do. 
Q. Were you at the Harvard Medical School four years con- 
tinuously? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You saw Dixwell in the dissecting-room? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. How was he dressed? A. In the dissecting-room, we 
usually all of us had a — 
Q. No; I want to know how Dixwell was dressed? A. 
There was nothing about his dress — 
Q. I didn’t ask you that; I want to know how he was 
dressed. A. I don’t know; I don’t remember there was any- 
thing marked about his dress. 
Q. Did he wear his hat in the dissecting-room? A. Some- 
times, and sometimes did not. 
Q. What kind of a hat was it? A. I think Dixwell usually 
wore a black slouch hat, I should call it. 
Q. Broadbrim? A. Rather broad brim. 
Q. With a band on it? A. I don’t remember that. 
Q. A weed on it? A. I don’t remember that, sir. 
Q. High crown? A. I don’t remember that he ever did. 
Q. High crown? A. No, sir; l should judge not. 
Mr. Mellf.n. Very interesting, Mr. Chairman; great bear- 
ing on the case! 
Q. Did he wear a dressing-gown? A. I think he did, in 
the dissecting-room. 
Gov. Butler. Does a hat have any tendency to prove that 
he did not tell the truth ? 
The Chairman. Well, it is pretty distant. 
Mr. Mellen. But Mr. Brown can ask anything he pleases. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; then I have some questions. 
Q. He wore a dressing-gown ; what sort of a dressing-gown 
was it? A. Some old affair. 
Q. Some old affair, or was it a new, gorgeous affair? A. 
I don’t remember it was anything new. 
Q. And he had a girdle around his waist, didn’t he? A. 
1 don’t know about that, I am sure. HOUSE —No. 300 
1883.] 
2831 
Q. Did he have on slippers or hoots? A. That, really, I 
don’t remember, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, don’t you know that — 
Gov. Butler. The only reason why I think the chairman 
might take some control is that this comes out of my time, and, 
I suppose is done to take it up. 
The Chairman. The question of limiting cross-examination 
is a difficult one, Governor. If you object to this I will let the 
committee pass upon it. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I think I had better let it run. I only 
want to call attention to the reason it is done. 
The Chairman. Dr. Dixwell was your main witness. 
Q. I want to know, Doctor, if Dixwell didn’t go into that 
dissecting-room dressed in a fantastic costume, repeatedly, so 
as to be a matter of comment among the students? A. Noth- 
ing that I remember that ever called my attention to it. 
Q. How long were you at the medical school with Dixwell? 
A. I don’t know, sir; he came in somewhere at the last of my 
being there. 
Q. At the last of your being there? A. Yes, sir; there 
was nothing about it to call my attention to it ; I only 
remember him as being there ; as coming in toward the last. 
Q. Didn’t know much about him ? A. No, sir. 
Q. You were not interested enough in him to have an}' con- 
versation with an}rbody else about him? A. No, sir; never. 
Q. Never? A. I think never 
Q. And you don’t know, to-day, but what you could go out 
on the street and find fifty people who would tell you his repu- 
tation for truth and veracity was bad, if you tried, do you? A. 
Oh, I don’t know, sir. 
Q. Don’t know anything about it? A. Nothing. 
Q. The question had never been raised in your mind ; never 
gave it a moment’s thought and never inquired? A. I did 
when — 
Q. Did }'ou ever inquire of anybody in Boston what his 
reputation for truth and veracity was? A. No, sir; I never 
did. 
Q. Well, do you know why you were sent for from Lynn to 
find out what the reputation for truth and veracity was of a 
man living in Boston? A. I judge it was from some remark I 
made to friends of mine that came to the ears of the governor,* 
or parties. 2832 
CHARITABLE IMSTITtTTlONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What was that remark? A. I said if Dixwell was in- 
sane it was, I thought, since T saw him last. 
Q. That is about eighteen months ago? A. I should think 
it was eighteen months ago. 
Q. Did yon know he had had a very severe fit of sickness? 
A. I did not till I saw it in the paper. 
Q. Till you saw it in the paper; that is in connection with 
this investigation ? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr, Mellen. It is twelve o’clock and time for the executive 
session. 
The Chairman. Do you move to adjourn? 
Mr. Mellen. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Are you through with this witness? 
The Chairman. The committee desires an executive session 
on the matter of Mr. Marsh. 
Gov. Butler. I wish the gentleman would withdraw the 
motion, because the pond will fill up before another meeting if 
we have a recess. 
Mr. Mellen. How long will you take, Mr. Brown? 
Mr. Brown. I will not take, certainly, over five minutes. 
Mr. Mellen. Governor, how long will you want, then? 
Gov. Butler. Not more than two minutes. 
Mr. Mellen. I withdraw the motion. 
Q. With the exception of the time you saw Dixwell at the 
Parker House, and with the exception of the two visits which 
he made to you at Lynn, had }Tou ever seen him since you left the 
medical school? A. Yes, sir; 1 had met him on the street to 
have conversation with him, — was once at his house, at his 
office in Pemberton Square, once, or twice, perhaps. 
Q. When was that? A. Oh, that was within six years, I 
should sa}’. 
Q. When were his visits at Lynn? A. I cannot place 
them, sir, but I should sa}’ three or four years ago ; it might 
have been, perhaps, five. 
Q. Well, were the two visits near together? A. Yes; I 
think they were ; it was to investigate one case out of the city. 
Q. Do you recollect what that case was? A. I don’t recol- 
lect the particulars of the case, but it was the stabbing or cut- 
ting or maiming of a child, a boy, by another boy ; and Dix- 
well came down to see about it, and it was some distance out of 
the chy and he wished me to investigate it. Then some gen- 
tleman interested in this work came from Boston ; what his name 1883. 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2833 
was I can’t remember ; we went out and saw the parties, but we 
could not get the facts of the case. Then Dr. Dixwell, after 
some correspondence and so on, I think he came again, and we 
looked it up and investigated it ; it was put in the hands, I 
think, of one of our Boston officers. 
Q. Now, when were the visits which you made at his house, 
any of them, as near as you can? A. I can’t tell, sir ; but I 
should say it was five or six years ago. 
Q. Now, sir, during the last three .years, how many times 
have you seen Dr. Dixwell? A. Oh, I should say I had seen 
him, during the last three years, perhaps not more than two or 
three times. 
Q. Not more than two or three times? A. Perhaps not 
more than twice. 
Q. Now, when you have seen him, how was he dressed? 
A. He wore his customary wide-brim hat, but there was noth- 
ing else about his costume that caused attention from me. 
Q. Nothing else about his costume except his hat? A. Ex- 
cept his hat. 
Q. Now, what was there about his hat that attracted j'our 
attention ? A. It was an unusually wide-brim hat. 
Q. An unusually wide-brim hat? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Sort of a Mexican hat, wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir; some- 
thing of that kind. 
Q. Saw nothing else that indicated to your mind that he had 
a sort of fantastic notion about his dress? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; I object to that question. There 
isn’t anything fantastic — 
The Chairman. I think you have pursued the dress part of 
it far enough. 
Gov. Butler. I wear a very broad-brim hat myself. 
Mr. Browtn. That attracts some attention, you know. 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly ; the fools are not all dead. 
Mr. Brown. And they still stick to their hats. That is all, 
Doctor. 
Re-direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. I want to ask jtou, Doctor, did you ever hear that he 
starved his grandmother to death ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever hear that he poisoned his mother ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Or that he killed his brother? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, I want to ask you further ; you have been 2834 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
asked whether you ever inquired about his character for truth 
and verachy, — did you ever inquire about the reputation of 
your own clergyman for truth and veracity? A. No, sir. 
Q. Or any of your highly respectable neighbors ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Did 37ou ever do that? A. I don’t think I ever did. 
Q. And 3xou treated Dr. Dixwell precisely, in this regard, as 
you do ever3Tbody else whose characters are unassailed and, so 
far as you know, unassailable? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir. 
Mr. Mellen. I don’t think it is wise for the committee to 
meet at two o’clock. The House is in session, and I presume 
the Senate, and an important matter — 
The Chairman. The Senate is in session, but we want to 
give the governor all the time we can, and we want to give him 
two sessions a day. 
Mr. Mellen. That is all right; I don’t propose to make any 
other regulation about that. 
The Chairman. Oh, 3'ou mean to change the time. 
M. Mellen. Yes ; probabty we will do something about the 
contempt case of Thomas J. Marsh. If we do, it will be re- 
ported this afternoon, and surety it is the didy of the committee 
to be present. 
Gov. Butler. I will be below, and any time the committee 
are to call me. 
Mr. Mellen. I would suggest it be four o’clock. 
The Chairman. I can’t sit here after four o’clock. 
Gov. Butler. I will be in readiness to attend at an3r mo- 
ment ; have m37 witnesses in readiness. 
Mr. Chester. Make it three o’clock, Mr. Chairman. 
Gov. Butler. And sit till five; that will give us the other 
hour. 
Mr. Mellen. I think we ought to have an hour and a half 
in the House. We won’t get through at three, and no mem- 
ber of the committee will want to leave at three o’clock. I 
think you will find it a prett37 interesting session this afternoon ; 
make it 3.30. 
The Chairman. The longest time will be put first. 
Adjourned to half-past three. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2837 
FIFTY-NINTH HEARING. 
Tuesday, July 10. 
The committee mot in the Green Room at 4.15 p.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Alonzo T. Andrews (sworn). 
Q. What is your business, Mr. Andrews? A. I am in 
Faneuil Hall Market; fruit and vegetables. 
The Chairman. Give us the full name, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Alonzo T. Andrews. 
The Witness. Of the firm of Andrews & Gleason. 
Q. State whether, about nine ago, you had occasion to 
visit frequently the Harvard Medical School room. A. I 
visited it twice, if you call that frequently, Governor. 
Q. I didn’t know how many times. You visited it twice. 
Did 3'ou visit the dead-room many more times than that? A. 
No, sir; but I went through the whole building, as I supposed, 
both times. 
Q. About how long ago was that? A. It was nine years 
ago last December, or possibly in January. 
Q. In the day or evening? A. Sunday afternoon, both 
times. 
Q. Whether you saw at that time an}' infant bodies on the 
dissecting-table. 
Mr. Brown. I object to the question. It is the same ques- 
tion that has been ruled upon. 
Gov. Butler. It has not been ruled upon. 
Mr. Brown. It is the same line of inquiry. 
Gov. Butler. Not at all. 
Mr. Brown. It was ruled upon in the case of Dr. McArthur. 
The Chairman. The committee will vote upon it. 
Gov. Butler. It was testified here that they had never any 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 2838 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
there dissected, because they were o(' no use; that nobody ever 
thought of it. You remember what was said about dissecting an 
infant’s body ; and there never was one on the dissecting-table ; 
never. Now, I want to prove that that is not true, and I think 
I ought to be allowed to do it. 
The Chatrman. You will remember, Governor, I suppose, 
that you admitted there were no babies dissected in the dissect- 
ing-room. 
Gov. Butler. In what? 
The Chairman. In the dissecting-room. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I said that upon my own testi- 
mony. There were none testified to in the dissecting-room. 1 
now discover I ivas mistaken, because I have found a man that 
has seen them. I thought the men told the truth, but they 
didn’t. 1 thought I could believe something. 
The Chairman. The committee will vote upon it if there is no 
further argument. The question is whether this witness shall 
be allowed to testify that he saw babies in the dissecting-room 
of the Harvard Medical School. 
Gov. Butler. Partially dissected. 
The Chairman. Those in favor of admitting the testimony 
will raise their hands ; five. I should vote in the negative if it 
would do an}' good. It is admitted. 
Q. Very well. Now, won’t you state, sir, whether you saw 
any babies on the table? A. On one Sunday afternoon that I 
passed through the room I saw two children that I should judge 
to be less than two years of age ; possibly they might have 
been less than 18 months old. One of them, on the second 
table, as I passed down through between them, had its head 
sawed off diagonally from the forehead to the back of the head. 
Q. How was the other? A. On the other the arms and 
limbs were being dissected. I don’t know what you call it, 
because I don’t understand ; but the cords or muscles were 
separated so that you could see them. 
Q. Where they on the same dissecting-table? A. No, sir; 
on separate tables Every table was full. 
Q. What,sir? A. Every one of the tables was full; but 
they were the only children. 
Q. What was on the other tables? A. Bodies of men and 
women ; the different parts were dissected, — in different stages 
of dissection. 1883. 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2839 
Q. At one of these visits did you go into the dead-room? 
A. I did not go into it, Governor; I looked into it both times. 
Q. Both times? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you see bodies there? A. I did, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I object to the question if it applies to the 
bodies of children. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; we were told again that there 
were never more than one or two there upon any occasion, and 
I am going to try to prove that the men that say so don’t tell 
the truth ; that is all. If I cannot prove that these men lied, 
I might as well stop here as at any time. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, the difficulty with this evidence 
is, I don’t know anything about this man’s relation; I don’t 
who he is ; he is a stranger to me. 
Gov. Butler. I would not abuse him to begin with. 
Mr. Brown. I have not abused him. The only abuse that 
1 know he has been subjected to is that he is in your and my 
company, so far. There is no pretence that these children came 
from Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. Why not? 
Mr. Brown. Because you haven’t made any. 
Gov. Butler. O Lord ! Give me the trustees’ record, will 
you, where they have made up the account on the 22d of 
March. 
Mr. Brown. And it is not in contradiction of anything that 
has been said by any witness that has been produced in defence. 
It don’t appear now, after the committee have admitted it, that 
the bodies of these children were not the bodies of monstrosities. 
Nobody is contradicted. It is entirely and absolutely new 
matter ; and it is new matter that don’t affect anybody except 
Harvard College, which is not a party here under investigation. 
If the committee want to go into it and want to take the time, I 
don’t know that I object to it very seriously. 
Gov. Butler. All I can say is I have heard over and over 
again, ad nauseam, that there is no proof that any babies vvent 
to Harvard. If I can find that report in the record of the March 
meeting of the trustees — 
The Chairman. Thirty-six, I think, is the number, in all; 
they don’t say how many to each. The report don’t show when 
they went, but the testimony of Hall and Chase was there were 
none went before 1876. 
Gov. Butler. Because they were not there. 2840 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. They were there before 1876 and there were 
none to their knowledge that went before 1876. That report 
don’t show when the}’ went except that they went. 
Gov. Butler. Now it is in evidence that thirty-six went to 
Harvard, but it does not appear when they were sent there. 
Mr. Brown. It does appear, —since 1873. 
Gov. Butler. And there is no report at all prior to that 
time. But the great question — that is an objection it may be 
to the weight of the evidence ; but you cannot prove your whole 
case by one witness. That is not the point at all; the point is 
this : these doctors swore that there was never more than one or 
two bodies in that dead-room, and they swore it like a flock < f 
sheep — that is, three — going over a wall one after the other. 
Now I propose to prove that there was a large, a considerable 
number, all tumbled in higgledy-piggledy, if I may be allowed 
to. I have spent all this day trying to get in two witnesses, 
and under this continued objection, and with reiterated votes 
taken on every question ; most of the da}7 besides has been taken 
away from me — 
The Chairman. Not by a majority of the committee, Gov- 
ernor. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know who it w’as done by. I am like 
the fellow who said he knew that millers’ hogs were always fat, 
but he didn’t know on whose corn they were fatted. 
The Chairman. You heard the proposition of your friend 
here on the left. 
Gov. Butler. I know not hing about it; I am not permitted 
to know. 
The Chairman. I have been here since three o’clock waiting 
to hear your Excellency. 
Gov. Butler. It was not my fault. I had it all this morn- 
ing, this continued objection. And so long as you will have 
it re-argued every time, upon every proposition, why, then, I 
might as well stop here, because if w'e proceed in that way my 
time will be all taken up. I put on two witnesses this morning 
that should not have taken more than fifteen minutes each,—but 
they took the whole morning, — because both of them were to a 
single point. And I called attention, in the case of Miss 
Anderson — Mistress Hanson — that there was not a word of 
cross-examination on the point to which she testified. 
The Chairman. As I remember the testimony, the doctors 
testified that they saw infants there several times. In the year 1883.] 
• HOUSE —No. 300. 
2841 
1875 there were three, as I remember it, and the evidence was 
one at a time. Now, if 3011 are to meet that, it seems to me it 
is competent to show that at that time there were more there. 
That would necessitate this witness’ knowing what years they 
testified to. It seems to me that the witness might then contra- 
dict them; but it seems to me he ought to know what years 
they testified to. 
Gov. Butler. They covered the whole time. 
The Chairman. And this witness — 
Gov. Butler. He goes to the time nine years ago, and covers 
the exact time. 
The Chairman. If he does that, it seems to me it may be 
competent. Nine years ago would be 1874. If he can swear 
that at that time, when the doctors swear there were not any 
there, there were bodies there — 
Gov. Butler. That is exactly what I am trying to do. 
The Chairman. I don’t think you have laid a foundation for 
that. 
Gov. Butler. lie said he went there nine years ago, and 
Dr. Porter and the others cover the whole time. 
The Chairman. I go so far, as your Excellency knows, as to 
hold to the belief individually that this is entirely immaterial, 
because Tewksbury is not scienter; but the committee have gone 
into it. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we won’t argue that over again, I trust. 
The Chairman. The committee will vote on this proposi- 
tion, and nothing else, and settle it. 
Mr. Brown. Supposing the view of the chairman to be cor- 
rect, why isn’t it competent for me to reply with another batch 
of witnesses to swear that they were there and there were not 
any there. 
The Chairman. I think it is. 
Mr. Brown. And so keep going on The gov- 
ernor has put on witnesses who said they were there. I have 
put on several who said they were not there, because they didn't 
see them. Now, he supplements his original case by putting on 
a witness who says they were there. Now, I could go on and 
lie could go on, and we could keep it up indefinitely. 
Gov. Butler. The difficulty is, I put on Dr. Dixwell to 
cover a certain time. Now, I put on a witness to supplement 
him. They put in testimony covering all time. 
[The testimony was rejected ; one for, two against.] 2842 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. What was the vote, sir? 
The Chairman. One in favor, two against. 
Q. Did you see any children in the dead-room? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. That 
is the same question, substantially. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir ; it is not the same question. 
The Chairman. Will the committee admit the question — 
whether he saw any children in the dead-room. Those in favor 
raise the hand—two ; one ; admitted. 
The Witness. May 1 ask for instructions as to what you call 
children ; whether you mean babies, or grown children fourteen 
years old. 
Mr. Brown. If he means babies, that is the very question 
that has been decided against. 
Gov. Butler. No; I asked before if he saw bodies there — 
corpses. Now I want to know if he saw any babies. 
The Chairman. That has been rejected. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; that is not the question I put; I 
don’t know what you rejected. 
The Chairman. That is the question we voted upon. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I said corpses ; when he looked into the 
dead-room did he see any corpses, bodies. 
The Chairman. Let us see how the stenographer has it. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know what Mr. Stenographer has got, 
and I don’t care. T know, for I had a memorandum before me. 
[The stenographer read the question: “ Did you see bodies 
there?”] 
The Chairman. That was admitted. 
Gov. Butler. Then I will ask him over again. 
Q. Did you see any bodies there? A. I did, sir. 
Q. A good many of them? A. Yes, sir; I should say a 
good many. 
Q. How were the}’ aligned? A. I could not express it any 
better than to say that if I got on a four-foot pile of wood and 
threw it off on to the ground — they were aligned in that shape 
as the wood would fall; crosswise, heads and feet, head to the 
foot, on the floor — on the rack. 
Q. Did you see trunks? A. I did, sir. 
Q. Whom did you go in with? A. I went in with the jani- 
tor and somebody else that I could not tell you. I was intro- 
duced to the janitor by a party who was boarding at the hotel 
where I was. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2843 
Q. Now, then, did you see any child there among those dead 
bodies ? 
Mr. Brown. Now I pray the judgment of the committee; 
that has not been voted upon 3’et. 
The Chairman. I understood it was voted upon and ad- 
mitted. 
Gov. Butler. 8o did \; if understood bodies when you 
were voting. 
The Chairman. I understood the question to be whether he 
saw bodies of children, and it was voted that it might be 
answered. 
Gov. Butler. All right. Now, then, ma3T answer the 
question. 
The Witness. I saw the bod37 one bab3T. 
Q. Where was that ? A. Lying between the legs of a man. 
Q. What did go in for; an3’thing but curiosity? A. 
That is all, sir. 
Q. Did you see these things both times you were there ? A. 
I saw at one time I was there two babies on the tables. I saw 
the trunks both times. At the other time I saw the one baity in 
the dead-room. Both times the dead-room was full of dead 
people, and the tables were full both times. 
Q. Now, then, how far apart were those two visits? A. I 
should think six or eight weeks ; possibty longer — during that 
winter. 
Gross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. That was nine years ago this last winter, was it? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. That would be in the winter of ’73, about that? A. I 
don’t figure it that way. All the way I figure it is by the time I 
was boarding at the Quincy House. 
Q. Can tell me what 3’ear it was, whether it was 1873 
and ’74? A. It would be 1873-74. 
Q. Whom did you go there with? A. I went there witli a 
party whom I don’t know, didn’t know ; was a friend of the 
janitor. 
Q. Didn’t know him when you went there? A. Iliad met 
him. 
Q. Didn’t know his name? A. No, sir. The janitor’s 
name I have learned only lately by reading the testimony here ; 
it had gone from me. I think his name was Waterhouse. 
Gov. Butler. He succeeded Andrews. 2844 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. There was another party assistant to him. 
There were four of us went through. 
Q. You went down with an unknown person? A. I went 
down 0)1 the invitation of the janitor; the unknown person was 
there. 
Q. And you were acquainted with Waterhouse? A. Iliad 
been introduced to him and he invited me down there. 
Q. And the unknown person 3rou met there? A. I saw 
him there ; he was there only once. 
Q. You saj7 there were four of you. Who was the other? 
A. The assistant, I should judge. At an3r rate, he took a 
bod3' on the back of his shoulders and carried it up stairs. I 
supposed he was the assistant. 
Q. Now, let us see. Those bodies on the dissecting-table 
were the bodies of two children? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you examine them? A. As near as anybod3* who 
is not used to the business would care to. 
Q. I don’t care'an3rthing about that. I want to know what 
3tou did? A. I walked through the lines of tables, going 
through. 
Q. How near were 3*011 to any bod37 ? A. As near as any - 
bod3r could go and keep in the centre of the aisle. 
Q. Three or four feet from the body of the child ? A. I 
should not think it was more than three or four feet. 
Q. Did 3'ou examine them carefully? A. No; I don’t 
know what 3Tou call a careful examination. Not being a medi- 
cal student, I simply looked at them and saw their distorted 
figures and shape. I saw the children. One thing I noticed 
particularly’—a good-formed woman ; her hair was cut short and 
close. That attracted my attention. 
Q. That is, 3'ou have given us a general idea of the exam- 
ination you made, have you ? You didn’t examine an3T more 
carefully than what you have already stated? A. I didn’t take 
hold of the bodies and look at them, and all that. I stayed in 
the room perhaps twentj’ minutes. 
Q. Can 3tou tell about the date of 3rour first visit? A. No, 
sir; I cannot. 
Q. Or about the date of 3*011 r second visit ? A. No, sir ; I 
cannot. 
Q. How near were you to the of this child, when you 
sa3T 3rou saw one in this dead-room? A. As near as I am to 
the first gentleman next to 3Tou. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2845 
Q. Six or eight feet? A. Yes, sir; less than eight. The 
gas was lighted, and I looked into the room. 
Q. How long did you look in? A. Perhaps a couple of 
minutes. 
Q. Didn’t go in? A. I did not. 
Q. Didn’t look in a second time? A. On that day? 
Q. Did you look in a second time while that child was there? 
A. I only saw the child in the dead-room on my second 
visit. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Testimony of John B. Burns (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Mr. Burns, have you ever been an officer at Tewksbury? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did you first go there? A. I went in 1866. 
Q. A little louder. A. In 1866. 
Q. What time in 1866? A. In the winter. 
Q. What were you employed in doing there? A. I was 
an attendant in the insane asylum. 
Q. How long did you stay? A. I stayed until the next 
April. 
Q. Did you leave then, or were you dismissed? A. I left. 
Q. When did you return? A. I returned in the following 
September, I believe ; September or October. 
Q. And stayed there through the winter and left in the 
spring? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long did you keep up the practice of going there in 
the winter and leaving in the spring? A. I was an attendant 
in the insane asylum from 1866 every winter up to 1872. 
Q. Did you stay1 there, then, after 1872? A. Yes; I stayed 
there until about three weeks ago. 
Q. In what capacity? A. I had charge of what they called 
the old men’s ward. 
Q. Did you resign then ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. On what account? A. I was sick and was not able to 
do the work that was required of me. 
Q. Were you summoned by the defence here as a witness, 
and was a subpoena served on you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. After the subpoena was served on you, did any one call 
on you about it— about your being a witness? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you see anybody ? A. After I was summoned ? 2846 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Summoned ; }'es, sir. A. Nobody called on me. 
Q. Did you have any conversation with Thomas J. Marsh, 
Jr.? A. Yes, sir; I believe I did. 
Q. Did he say anything to you about whether you were com- 
ing down ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. What is the judgment that is wanted now? 
Mr. Brown. I don’t see what this answers. 
Gov. Butler. I have not got to it yet. 
Mr. Brown. You are going back to a conversation. I don’t 
think it makes an}T difference. 
Gov. Butler. What I expect to get from this witness is this : 
I am to prove that he was subpoenaed for the defence, and Mr. 
Marsh came to him and asked him if he was going down as a 
witness. lie said, Yes. Marsh asked him what he would sa}7, 
and he told him : “ You know what I shall say ; I shall tell the 
truth,” or words to that effect. “ Then,” said Marsh, “ we don’t 
want you to come. I will make it all right with Brown.” The 
witness said, “ What will I do with the subpoena? ” and he said, 
“ Tear it up ; ” and he did, and didn’t come. Now I think it is 
competent, in the preparation of the witness, to show that I have 
got a witness, one of the people there, and whom the defence 
had confidence in. Then I will ask him what he knows. 
Mr. Brown. In other words it is competent in rebuttal to 
answer testimony that has never been offered in defence. Now, 
this is all new matter. I never heard of it before. 
The Chairman. I suppose it is competent to show — 
NIr. Brown. I do recollect something about a witness, John 
Burns ; and I recollect certain reasons why he was not sum- 
moned, or at least why he was not called. And I recollect, 
also, that I made a statement to the committee that I would not 
call people of a certain description. When I found out what I 
had got I didn’t call him. I don’t know what Mr. Marsh said, 
and I don’t think it has got anything to do with this case. Mr. 
Marsh hasn’t been my witness. It don’t seem to be in rebut- 
tal of anything. 
Gov. Butler. I agree it is not, sir. It don’t rebut any- 
thing. 
The Chairman. You put it on the ground that it is an at- 
tempt by somebody who is a respondent, to tamper with a wit- 
ness ? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2847 
Gov. Butler. A little bit of that, I should say ; slightly so ; 
just a “ leetle ” bit. 
The Chairman. I suppose it is competent on that ground. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; I should so suppose. 
Q. Well, sir, what did Tom say to you? 
Mr. Brown. Well, wait a moment. 
Mr. Murphy. I will agree with the chair this time. 
The Chairman. Is the committee ready for the question? 
The question is whether he had any conversation with Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr., as to coming down here as a witness. I under- 
stood two to vote in the affirmative; the chair votes in the 
affirmative and the testimony is admitted. 
Q. Very well. Now, what did Mr. Marsh sav to you ? A. 
Well, I went to Mr. Marsh and told him that I had a summons, 
and asked him if he knew it. He said he did. “ Well,” said I, 
“ I don’t want to go up there, and you ought to know it.” 
Said he, “ Why?” I told him he ought to know just as well 
as myself. “ Well,’’.said I, “ there is one thing about it, if I 
go up there I shall not make an ass of myself, the same as Joe 
Howard and some of the rest of them did. If I am asked a 
question I shall tell the truth, just as near as I can tell it.” Said 
he, “ If that is the wa}’ you talk we don’t want you.” That 
was all of it; only I asked what I should do with the summons, 
and said he, “ Tear it up.” 
Q. And you did, I suppose? A. I did ; yes, sir. 
Q. Very well. Now, did you have an opportunity, while 
you were so in the service of the Marshes, and of the institu- 
tion — did you do house-cleaning in the Marsh house, where 
they lived? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Most of the time? A. During about ten years. 
Q. You did work for the family, I suppose? A. No, sir; 
it was only twice a3rear, during house-cleaning time ; I attended 
to it. 
Q. While you were there did 3 011 tie up and strap packages 
and trunks which were taken away b3r the Marsh famity, some 
of them ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I pray their judgment also. Haven’t 
we had swearing here, enough to fill the place where some kind 
of people go to, that there was no trunk, no package, nothing? 
The old man swore here that nothing ever went. I don’t lay it to 
him so much. And the witnesses come here and swear that the3r 2848 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
should have seen it, and that it could not and did not go. And 
when my witness came the other day, they undertook to impeach 
his character by setting up a quarrel with him. Now, I am going 
to show that that is not true, if I can be permitted to. I have 
now got a man who is willing to tell the truth ; who was there ; 
who lived there. A rare bird in this investigation ; but I have 
got him, and I want him to fly. And I am going through — for 
we had better have it settled once for all — I am going through 
most of these things where the Marsh family and others have 
been put upon the stand to swear the thing was not so. For 
instance, all of them come here and said they never heard of 
an instance of cruelty. I can prove half a dozen by this wit- 
ness and others, if I am permitted ; if not, why then, what is 
the use of having rebuttal. Call on the family to swear their 
case through and then saj' you cannot show that they lie ! Is 
that to be tolerated in a Christian land? Not a moment. Al- 
most everything I can with this and other witnesses contradict, 
and I propose to, if I am permitted. If the committee rule I 
can’t, why then, there is the end of my rebuttal. 
Mr. Brown. The committee will excuse me if I object fre- 
quently. I offered a certain book here, or at least was about to 
offer a certain book the other da}', and His Excellency said he 
didn’t care what was in it, he would show it was a lie. And, 
therefore, knowing the with which he could produce 
testimony here I am a little careful, and want to guard as well 
as I can what is done. 
Gov. Butler. I have taken your witness. 
Mr. Brown. It don’t make any difference whether you have 
taken my witness or not. The man never saw me before ; at 
least, I never had any conversation with him, and never knew 
what he would testify to. Now, if this committee choose to 
allow His Excellency to introduce witnesses here which are 
nothing in the world but to supplement his original case — He 
asks this witness in regard to trunks which were packed up aud 
sent somewhere — to Exeter. 
Gov. Butler. Went everywhere. 
Mr. Brown. Went everywhere. 
Gov. Butler. Pretty nearly. 
Mr. Brown. In the first place, I happen to know that 
His Excellency has exhausted every depot file he could 
find for baggage. The gentleman sits here who staj’ed 
until two o’clock at night in Exeter to see if he could not find 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2849 
something that would show that the Atwoods and the Davises 
had packages sent from Tewksbury to Exeter ; and we haven’t 
heard anything yet. 
Gov. Butler. We haven’t got to that yet. 
Mr. Brown. They sent up to Exeter and they didn’t even 
take the testimony of the depot master upon the subject. Now, 
if witnesses can come in ; for instance, if this witness can be al- 
lowed to testify that he packed boxes, why wasn’t he produced 
here originally ? 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t know of him, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Well, you ought to have known him. You 
have had the name of every officer, and of the inmates of the 
institution, and twelve policemen at the other end, if I recol- 
lect the number distinctly. Now, there is only one witness, one 
or two witnesses produced by His Excellency who have testified 
in regard to things being sent to Exeter. We haven’t under- 
taken to reply to anything except the testimony which has been 
offered, except generally, the old gentleman, Mr. Marsh and 
others have testified that they' never have taken any property of 
the Commonwealth, and carried it to Exeter. Now, I submit 
that if this line of inquiry is going to be gone into, this com- 
mittee must divide this time between now and Friday and give 
me a chance to reply to it. Because, it is entirely new — en- 
tirety new. This man does not know anything about the boxes 
that Dudley’ said went to Exeter, which we have denied and ex- 
plained. 
Gov. Butler. How do you know he don’t? 
Mr. Brown. Well, you don’t thus far show that he does. 
Gov. Butler. I haven’t shown anything ; I can’t. 
Mr. Brown. Now, if you will show that some fact which our 
witness has testified to is wrong, or that that testimony of Dud- 
ley’ is not the fact, I concede it is rebuttal. But to ask him, 
generally’ in regard to other instances that we have never heard 
of before — and there is no pretence that it has ever been heard 
of before — to ask him in regard to other instances, is simpty 
doing what, or at least putting in wrhat His Excellency ought to 
have done in the first instance. 
Gov. Butler. It is said to me that I should summon some- 
body from Tewksbury. I thought I might get some evidence 
that was true in the neighborhood of the asylum, and therefore 
I brought that sweet woman, Miss Manning, here ; and that 
satisfied me not to try the experiment any more. The woman 2850 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that knew about little ones, but didn’t know what the little 
ones were; the woman that knew about transportation, but 
didn’t know what was transported. There is not a man of you 
that believed a word she said ; and I knew I could no more get 
any testimony out of Tewksbury, with the Marshes holding 
their grip, than I could extract blood out of a turnip,—not a bit 
more. That is the reason I didn’t call an}- that were in Tewks- 
bury. But now, then, here is a man whom I have heard of 
who had resigned, and I sent and had him questioned, and I 
am now before the investigating committee of the legislature to 
give them evidence of what has been done there; to meet the 
swearing of all the girls who were called matrons, who were 
brought here, that none went, nothing went away from there. 
Men came swearing that they knew they didn’t go, and men 
came swearing that they could not have gone, and reasons why 
they could not have gone. Now, if Mr. Brown had contented 
himself with simply asking the question, undertaking to contra- 
dict the Dudley trunks, why, then, perhaps I might have done 
that; but hardly then, I think, in an investigation. B}t strict 
ride of law I might have been cut off. But he didn’t content 
himself with that. lie covered the whole ground by old Mr. 
Marsh from 1858 down to to-day — down to the day he was on 
the stand — that nothing went; not a thing except two barrels of 
apples. Don’t you remember that? 
Now, I want to show that it was a very frequent occurrence 
that this man was called to strap down trunks that were taken 
to Exeter and elsewhere by the various members of the Marsh 
family, except sometimes, I suppose, when they didn’t go. I 
have only a memorandum of what his testimony will be. And 
we contradict Mr. Marsh. But I want to be fair to the old man, 
even as I was when he was on the stand, and I think it was 
done largely without his knowledge. Because, while I have no 
cause to love him, I mean to be fair with him. On the contrary, ■ 
T propose to show, if you will let me, that it was expressly, — 
that he was told by Thomas ,T. and by Charles not to let the old 
man know about these things. We are bound to get at what 
was done in this institution. If the committee say they don’t 
want to know, why then we will go home this warm afternoon 
and attend to some duties which will be pleasanter. But it is 
in exact contradiction. We were told that we were to have the 
Marshes, the whole boodle. We haven’t had Tom. 
Mr. Brown. I offered him, and you would not take him. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2851 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. I would not take him when he 
kept back the truth. Then I would not take him. And where 
is the old lady? She knows about these trunks better than 
anybody else. I would be very glad to see the matron on the 
stand. Where is Mrs. Atwood, into whose possession we have 
traced these clothes, selling them in Exeter to old-clothes 
dealers ; where is she? In perfect health and strength, but not 
produced here. They produced Dr. Putney to say he didn’t 
know anything about it. I don’t think he did ; but his wife and 
the Marshes did. Where is his wife? Good heavens ! Are we 
to be hoodwinked here? Are we supposed to be a covey of 
young partridges, sticking our heads under a leaf and thinking 
our whole bodies are out of sight? Not much, I hope. I am 
here to deal with this institution, if you will let me ; if you say 
you won’t, why then I will say some time or other I may get an 
opportunitj7 to investigate it fully, under spine circumstances. 
But this is to be a full investigation, if I understand ; and they 
shall not bring men and women to swear here without my being 
permitted to contradict them, and show they didn’t tell the 
truth. Now, I am going further, and I will produce some of 
these old clothes. I am going to show that Mrs. Marsh did 
take them, and had them braided up into mats ; and not only 
that, she took them all away when she went away the other day. 
I open thus fully in order that I may not be kept all the time, 
having all my time taken up by these continual objections. If 
the committee, by their solemn vote, will vote that this line of 
investigation and of contradiction is not to be gone into, then all 
I have to say is, I have no more testimony, because none is ruled 
competent; for if this isn’t competent, there isn’t any. 
Mr. Brown. In view of His Excellency’s statement, that he 
proposes to go into all this new matter — 
Gov. Butler. All old. I cannot contradict new matter. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. He found fault because I re- 
plied to something more than the evidence of Dudley. Well, I 
did it for this reason. I will submit to any lawyer or any judge 
in this Commonwealth, whether there is one scintilla of evidence 
in the record upon which any member of the Marsh family could 
be charged with a cent’s worth of the Commonwealth’s property. 
The evidence of Dudley, which was the strongest of any, was 
not sufficient to charge anybod}' with that property. Because 
any fair-minded man, looking at the evidence of Dudley on the 
face of it, would have seen that that box had to go through a 2852 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
partition without a hole, and therefore his story was untrue. 
Now, I told the committee that I was willing to turn this insti- 
tution inside out. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. And every time I put on a witness, in order to 
give His Excellency the most complete and ample opportunity 
for cross-examination, I asked the witness, as, for instance, the 
old gentleman Marsh, —I asked him if he ever knew or ever had 
anything to do with, whether there was ever an}’ property of the 
Commonwealth converted and sent to Exeter, and he said no. 
Now, take the matter of the dresses. He says there were dresses 
sent to Exeter. Well, I don’t think you can read the testimony 
of Mrs. Dolloff and come to the conclusion that the Atwood 
family or the Davis family had more dresses than are usual in a 
family of that description—chiefly ladies ; and there is not one 
syllable of testimony that any of these dresses came from the 
institution. And I say any fair-minded man cannot look at that 
testimony and say that there is evidence enough to charge any 
single person with having a cent’s worth of inmates’ clothing— 
for it is confined to that. Now, the}7 admit that they didn’t 
succeed in the first instance, and they want you to let them try 
again, under circumstances where they know I cannot reply. 
Gov. Butler. So far as I am concerned you may reply.. 
Mr. Brown. I repeat the language of His Excellency, that 
if this is to be done there is no need of my staying here, be- 
cause I don’t care what people say if I cannot answer it. It 
don’t make any difference what charges you make against this 
institution, if you are going to prevent me from answering those 
charges. I might just as well go home and attend to my busi- 
ness and the business of somebody else, and a great deal better, 
too. Now, 1 submit that upon the broad statement made by 
His Excellency, it is the duty of this committee now to say, or 
to say as often as the question shall be raised, that new matter 
shall not be gone into. Why, this hearing is to be closed in two 
days after to-day—three days after to-day. It is to be closed 
by Friday night. Anil His Excellency, from what I hear, has 
got some twenty or thirty witnesses of the same general tenor 
as this—all new matter ; confessed to be new matter, because 
he says if he cannot get this in he might as well stop. 
Gov. Butler. I have not said any such thing. 
Mr. Brown. Well, His Excellency made a statement that if 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2853 
this testimony — testimony of this character — would not be 
received by the committee, he might as well stop. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly; because I cannot contradict any- 
body. 
Mr. Brown. Cannot contradict anybody! There is no 
objection to His Excellency’s contradicting the testimony that 
is in rebuttal. But he says it is new. He has repeated that it 
is new ; and everything we have had so far, I think, is new. It 
contradicts somebody, true ; but it is not in rebuttal. 
Gov. Butler. All I can say is what I have said before ; that 
all rebuttal is contradiction, and all contradiction is rebuttal; both 
ways, and must be so. The difference between new matter is 
this: I cannot go into an}* line of investigation I haven’t gone 
into before, because contradiction must be upon that line. I 
cannot go into any line of matter, any line of charge that the 
defence has not offered evidence upon ; whether for better or for 
worse, that is of no consequence. Whether, when we read Mrs. 
Dolloffs deposition, we will believe her, is another question. 
The fact that somebody has sworn to something in this investi- 
tion by no means proves that it is true. We are to take the 
thing offered; and the thing offered is to show that their wit- 
nesses, when they said there were no trunks or boxes taken by the 
family away from the state almshouse, — that that is not true. 
When they sa}’ there was no use made, for the benefit of the 
Marsh family, of the dresses, that is not true. When they say 
there were not any acts of cruelty, that is not true. When they 
say that the state property has all been accounted for, that, is 
not true. When the}’ say that French Joe didn’t sell the prop- 
erty belonging to the institution, that is not true. And so I 
might go on, in all the matters, by just showing the fact. And 
it must be competent, if there is anything competent on earth. 
The Chairman. I will put it to vote. 
[The testimony was rejected ; three in favor of admission 
and three against.] 
Gov. Butler. I will try again. 
Q. State whether or not you have strapped a large number, 
as many as one hundred trunks and boxes in the apartments 
of the family, to go away? 
Mr. Brown. I object to the question. 
The Chairman. We will vote upon it. 
Mr. Brown. In the first place, that all might be done and 
no wrong done. There is no pretence that it is in rebuttal. It 2854 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
is entirely new matter. We do not know whether it refers to 
the property of the Commonwealth or to private property. 
Gov. Butler. I ask one question at a time. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; you want to get an answer so broad that 
it will cover everything. 
Gov. Butler. In the first place I want to show that they 
were strapped in the apartments of the family, where they could 
not make a mistake, where they must have known it. 
Mr. Brown. Then why isn’t it the same question? 
Gov. Butler. Ah ! because that was a general strapping, on 
the outside. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; you limited that to within 
the knowledge of the Marshes. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; I didn’t limit it to the knowledge of 
the Marshes, because I didn’t put that into the question. 
The Chairman. The committee will settle it. 
[The question was rejected, three to four.] 
Gov. Butler. Well, sir, all right. 
Mr. Mellen. T move, Mr. Chairman, that the committee 
adjourn. They are fillihustei ing downstairs. It seems to me 
we are fooling awa}T our time here. The thing is cut and dried 
in advance. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, we will get through. 
Adjourned to meet Wednesday, July 11, at 9.30 a.m. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2855 
SIXTIETH HEAKIXG. 
Wednesday, July 11. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Boring of Worcester in the chair. 
Gov. Butler. I will ask leave of the committee, through 
the courtes}1 of Mr. Brown also, to allow me to break into the 
order of putting in testimony. I have one or two physicians 
here who ought to be somewhere else. 
The Chairman. Exactly-. 
Testimony of James F. Babcock (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. You are a chemist, I believe? A. I am, sir. 
Q. And State assayer? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Can ink be taken out by some chemical acids so as to 
leave no trace except to a very practised eye? A. It can. 
Q. When it is so done can it by chemical reagents be 
brought back again and show the figure taken out? A. That 
is a matter of experiment. Sometimes it can be. 
Q. Sometimes it can be. I have asked you to try on three 
cases in this inmates’ cash-book. Will you turn to the one 
where you brought out the “ one ” where it had been erased in 
15? [Witness turned to the book and handed it to the gov- 
ernor.] That one? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was there anything to be seen there except to a prac- 
tised eye? A. There was a stain there which would indicate 
to one looking for an erasure or alterations some previous 
writing. 
Q. By putting on chemical reagents where it is taken out by 
acids and bringing it back again 3-011 produced that result, did 
you ? A. I did. 
[Gov. Butler showed the place on the page to Mr. Brown and 
to the committee.] 2856 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. Perhaps you liad better give the reporter the 
name and number. 
Gov. Butler. It is number 33,091, Mary Loeke. That 
appeared to be only 5, and the 1 was brought out by the reagent. 
Mr. Chamberlain. This is one of the numbers that Mr. 
Fairbanks spoke of as if it looked as if there had been an 
erasure. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. The way of it is this : It is taken 
out by the acid, and then by putting on reagents, which takes 
out that acid, then it is brought back to “ 1.” 
The Chairman. It stood before without a “ 1 ”? 
Gov. Butler. Without a “ 1.” 
Mr. Gilmore. It is an erasure by acid? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; it is an erasure by acid ; no scratch- 
ing. The “ 1 ” you see has been brought back by acid. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) If, Doctor, it has been erased by 
scratching you cannot do that? A. No, sir ; that is, if all the 
ink has been removed there is nothing to operate upon. 
Q. That is, if the ink is removed by the blade of a scratcher. 
Now, I asked you to try on another place? A. Yes, sir ; No. 
37,792, Margaret Welch, has had a 2, as it was originally, 
removed by some chemical preparation and a 3 written over it. 
Q. And by using the reagent the 2 is brought out? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. It requires some knowledge of chemical properties, I 
suppose, to do that? A. No; not much. 
Q. Not much, but some? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You must know what acid to use to bring it back? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Otherwise you would make a bad job of it? Now, we 
will try the case of Ellen Allen, who was supposed to go there 
from Gloucester— 1st page — without an}’ money. Won’t you 
tell me what happened there, because there is an erasure? 
What did you find there? A. I applied the same agents in this 
case as in the others, and I succeded in bringing out quite satis- 
factorily to my eye the lower part of a 6, so that the figure 1 
read distinctly a 6. It was shown also to another person in 
the office. I Avas unable to bring out any figure to the left of it, 
but I observed that there had been an erasure by scratching. 
Then, in endeavoring to remove the yellow stain put upon the 
paper by the materials I used, I obliterated a portion of the, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2857 
“ 1,” and a portion of the 6 also. That is to say, it does not 
now look so plain as it did originally. 
Q. That is to sa}’, that was both by acid and by scratching? 
A. Yes, sir. There is an erasure at the left of what was a 1, 
and the 1 was originally a 6, but it doe3 not now show very 
well. 
Q. Then there was an erasure on the left of the 1, which 
read before you began, one dollar? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then the acid brought out a 6 in place of the 1, and it 
shows that some figure had been erased in front of — A. It 
showed that there had been an erasure before the one. Whether 
or not it was a figure I don’t know. 
Q. It was a figure. The dollar marks were found nowhere 
else in that book? A. Something had been erased. 
Q. And by that acid? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Those are the onty three places you have tried? A. 
They are. 
Gov. Butler. Three is as good as a thousand. The witness 
is yours, Mr. Brown. 
Cross-examiantion by Mr. Broivn. 
Q. Now, take this case of Ellen Allen ; did you examine the 
book with a microscope before you touched any acid to it? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Of what power? A. Three or four diameters ; I don’t 
know how much. 
Q. What could 3’ou see with a microscope, if anything? A. 
I think there were two little grooves apparently on the erasure 
at the left of the “1.” Other than that I don’t know that I 
observed anything in particular. 
Q. Did you look at the paper on the backside with a micro- 
scope? A. I do not recollect that I did. 
Q. Have you the same microscope here, now, which yon 
used in looking at this ? A. It is not a miscroscope; it is a 
hand-magnifier. 
Q. And is that the same one you used? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that, you saj’, is how many diameters? A. I don’t 
know ; I can measure it — one or two, or three. 
Q. What was the acid that you applied ? 
Gov. Butler. The acid takes the ink out, The restorer is 
pot always acid, 2858 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) What did you apply? A. I used 
the tincture of nutgalls diluted. 
Q. How do you describe the dilution? A. It would be 
about one part of an ordinary tincture as sold by druggists, and 
diluted with two parts of water. 
Q. Now here is another yellow spot—the yellow stain now 
seen—was that made by your chemical preparation? A. It 
was. 
Q. Before that nutgall preparation was put on there, there 
was no yellow stain? A. There was not. 
Q. After the nutgalls were put on did you use an eraser? 
A. I did not. 
Q. Did you use anything for the purpose of taking off the 
stain? A. I attempted to use a little diluted hydrochloratic 
acid for the purpose of removing the yellow, which is the natural 
color of the nutgalls. 
Q. And that natural color is seen on the sheet here? A. 
Yes, sir ; and it is seen in the other two cases. 
Q. IIow did you apply that preparation? A. It was ap- 
plied by putting it upon a piece of blotting-paper, and I pressed 
upon it with 1113' hand in some places. 
Q. How do 3 011 account for the fact that in some places the 
stain of nutgall is entirely removed, and in others it doesn’t 
seem to be touched at all? A. On the other places there is a 
place where I applied some chloride of soda for the removal of 
the nutgalls. That appears to have bleached it better. 
Q. Did you do am'tliing with that paper to take out the lit- 
tle lines you refer to on the left? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then, if there were any there ever, the3T are there now 
the same as before? A. That wouldn’t follow. 
Q. Why wouldn’t it follow? A. Because, by softening up 
the paper, b}7 the wetting of it, and the subsequent drying, 
the iibre might gather itself together, and it wouldn’t show as 
well as it would before. Perhaps I ought to say that I wasn’t 
able to interpret anything from the two lines. I saw the two 
grooves there, and 1 don’t know what they mean. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Not on the other you put on the 
nutgalls? A. They don’t show anything. I don’t know what 
it was. 
Q. (B}' Mr. Brown.) Now, supposing the erasure had been 
made b}7 the common scratching instrument and some of this 
powder, and the ink hadn’t been removed; that some of this 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. BOO. 
2859 
pounce had been put on and rubbed down with an instrument, 
as is customary, wouldn’t your preparation of nutgalls have 
taken off the pounce and brought out the ink where it didn’t 
show before? A. Not unless some of the original ink 
remained on the fibre. 
Q. Very true. But if it still remained on the paper, the 
nutgall would tend to remove the pounce and penetrate through 
the ink? A. I think it wouldn’t tend to remove it, but it 
probably would soak underneath it. 
Q. Well, if it didn’t soak underneath it, it would bring out 
the ink, would it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then it would be necessary for the nutgalls to saturate 
through the ink to touch it? A. It would be necessary for the 
nutgalls to touch the remains of the old ink, else there is no 
color. 
Q. Then it would be perfectly possible to so encase a figure 
in ink with pounce that it could not be seen very distinctly, and 
then bring it out with the nutgalls, even if there had not been an 
erasure, wouldn’t it? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t understand your question. You en- 
crust first by making an erasure, and then bring it out distinctly 
without making an erasure? 
Mr. Brown. Let us see if the witness understands it. 
The Witness. I will answer it as I understand it. I think it 
would be possible to cover ink with pounce so thoroughly that 
nutgalls wouldn’t bring it out — if that is the question. I think 
it would be possible. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) And even where there hadn’t been 
an erasure? A. I don’t think you could put pounce enough 
over writing ordinarily so as to cover the black completely so 
3tou could not see it. Pounce hasn’t much color. It is rather a 
gloss which stiffens and smooths down the paper so that the ink 
will not blot when written. It doesn’t overcome the black. 
Q. Now, when the nutgalls was applied to that surface and 
the line brought out which wasn’t perceptible to the eye before, 
do you argue from that that the original figure must have been 
erased with acid necessarily? Might it not have been covered 
or submerged with pounce? A. I haven’t undertaken to argue 
it at all. I state some facts. 
Q. Would it be a demonstration like other conclusions of 
chemistry ? A. Not from that fact alone. Perhaps I ought 
to say in the case of the 15 1 have a well-defined opinion about CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
2860 
it. In the case of the 6 on the first page I cannot tell how that 
G was erased. I should not like to say7. 
Q. That is, you don’t want to say that there was any acid 
ever touched it? A. I shouldn’t want to say that. I shouldn’t 
want to say to the contrary. I don’t know. There was some- 
thing there which I restored. 
Q. Take the case of Ellen Allen. 
Gov. Butleii. That is the one he is talking about. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. This is the case we are talking 
about. 
Q. This case you haven’t any opinion about? A. I simply 
say7 1 don’t know how it was erased. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You simply reproduced it? A. I 
simply reproduced the G on the left of the 1. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown). Now, where is the next case? A. 
That one. [Handing him the book.] 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) That is the 15? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is the case of the 15. Now, 
did you use the same preparation of nutgalls there? A. Yes, 
sir; it may have been a little weaker, possibly7. 
Q. Well, was it out of the same portion, the same prepara- 
tion, made at the same time? A. It was ; the original solution 
was the same, out of the same vial, but was diluted by wetting 
the blotting-paper and putting the brushful upon the blotting- 
paper. 
Q. Now, sir, why’ didn’t you take the same dilution of nut- 
galls for each case? A. There was no reason for that, except 
I applied it several times to the Ellen Allen erasure, the same 
preparation, because I failed to bring out any figure over where I 
thought there had been an erasure aud might still be one. This 
one came out very' easily7 — the 15. 
Q. Now, sir, are you prepared to say that if you had used the 
same dilution of nutgalls in each case yTou wouldn’t have come 
to the same conclusion in each case? A. Well, I know I tried 
the first page with the same dilution which I used here and 
didn’t get any immediate result. I should say7 this was the one 
I tried first. I tried the 15. The next one was 2, and I went 
to the next page and experimented. 
Q. Now7, turn to the third case. [Witness showed it on the 
book.] Did you have the same preparation of nutgalls, the 
same dilution there? A. Practically; y7es, sir. I will state 
exactly w hat I did. I took tw o or three brushfuls—small camel’s 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2861 
hair pencil dipped in water — two or three brushfuls of water 
and placed it on a little bit of blotting-paper. Then I took one 
brushful of the tincture of nutgalls and dropped that on the 
blotting-paper, mixing it with this water, and then it laid upon 
the paper for a moment. That was done substantially in all 
cases at first. 
Q. Now, when you, in the case of Margaret Welch, b}r plac- 
ing the preparation of nutgalls, brought out the figure 2 — and 
there is no trace of any other figure except the figure 2 ? A. 
There is not. 
Q. You are perfectly certain about that? A. I didn’t see 
any. 
Q. You cannot find any? A. I haven’t seen any. 
Q. And there is nothing within your knowledge as a chem- 
ist which would enable you to say that there is anything else 
there, or had been there, except the figure 2? A. I could not 
tell as to that absolutely. All I see is the 2 which has been re- 
stored, the 3 having been written over it. I didn’t see any evi- 
dence of anything else. 
Q. No, no; you didn’t see any evidence of anything else. 
Then, whoever did that, according to your theory, erased the 
figure 2 and put down the figure 3? A. The figure 2 was 
written there originally and that had been removed. 
Q. And the figure 3 put down? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that figure 3 had been removed by some chemical 
means? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In other words, the 2 dollars had been changed to 3 dol- 
lars? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And from that you infer that Margaret Welch was a suf- 
ferer in some way? A. I don’t know anything about Marga- 
ret Welch, and don’t care. I don’t infer. 
Q. And you don’t care? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, won’t you read to me those entries in pencil on 
that same book? A. [Taking the book.] 50, 25, 75, 50, 25. 
Q. That is 2.25, ain’t it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Supposing this to mean cents? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that the memorandum there in pencil shows more 
money than the original entry, which you think has been erased? 
A. The facts are as I state. 
Q. Assuming that that means cents: 25,50, etc., mean 
cents? A. Those figures added up make 2.25. CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
2862 
Gov. Butler. And that wouldn’t account for the difference 
in any way. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know whether it would or not. 
Gov. Butler. You can neither subtract or add the $3.25 to 
$2 and make the 3 correct. 
Mr. Brown. ‘ What is that? 
Gov. Butler. You cannot subtract or add $3.25 to $2 and 
have the result put down as $3. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know where 3Tou get your 3.25. We 
haven’t heard anything of it yet. 
Gov. Butler. Well, 2.25. Well, add 2.25 to $3 and you 
cannot get that. 
Mr. Brown. Charles Marsh has shown that there was 
received $3.25 and he paid out $2.25, while if you hold him by 
the original entry you never had but $2.25 of that woman’s 
money. 
Gov. Butler. And had three left. He marked the three. 
Mr. Brown. He doesn’t say he had three. 
Gov. Butler. He drew three lines across the 3. He says 
those were the sums which he paid. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. He said he drew lines there 
when he paid the party all the money. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. If this record is correct he could not have paid 
but 75 cents. 
Gov. Butler. Well, all right. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, let me see, Prof. Babcock, I 
want you to state what the evidence is that there was any 
acid applied to that figure 2 ? A. The evidence to m}T mind 
was the appearance of a slight }*ellow stain under the figure 3. 
I could not make out what the figure was. 
Q. Under the figure 3, a slight yellow stain? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now — 
Gov. Butler. Let him finish his answer. 
The Witness. It was the same color and general appearance 
which I should expect to be produced by the action of oxalic or 
tartaric acid, or such acids as are usually used for erasures upon 
an iron ink, and then the fact that preparation restored the ink, 
making it somewhat blacker, would of itself indicate that some 
acid had been used, or else that the ink was very old. Ink 
which is bleached by age, 40 or 50 years of age, may be re- 
stored in somewhat the same manner. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2863 
Q. Yes ; so that you inferred from what you did, that the acid 
may have been applied to that, or that the ink was very old — 
either one of which would have accounted for the appearance ? 
A. Yes, sir. That is, I know nothing absolutely of the age of 
these books. I speak of this as a general inference. 
Q. Now, could you tell from the appearance of the stain 
whether the ink had been applied since the 30th of March, or 
whether it had been applied before that ? A. I could not. 
Gov. Butler. What do you mean — whether the ink had 
been applied? 
Mr. Brown. Whether the acid had been applied before the 
30th of March or not? A. I could not. 
Q. Was the stain uniform throughout the entire length of 
the figure 2? A. I think so, except so far as it was covered 
by the other figure where it was obscured. 
Q. Now was the red ink applied before the figure 3 was 
made? I don’t care to have you tell from the naked eye, but 
from your examination originally? A. I should not want to 
say it was applied before the examination was made. 
Q. Can you tell in any case where the red ink and black ink 
come in contact, where the red line and black line come in con- 
tact, can you tell which was applied first? A. No, sir; it 
would be very unsafe. 
Q. Very unsafe in an}’ case? A. Yes, sir. What I mean 
is this — or I can explain it: If you take that black inkstand 
and undertake to rule a red line on it, you don’t see the red. 
The red is a transparent color, and it only shows because the 
white of the page shows over it. Now, if you did that, it would 
appear that the black in there was put on afterwards, when it 
cannot be so. As a matter of fact, you cannot tell to a cer- 
tainty what time red ink or black ink has been ruled across 
black, unless it is wet when it is ruled. 
Q. You say that as a chemist? A. L say that as the result 
of some experience in examining writing. It is my individual 
opinion, merely. 
Q. And there is no way that you know of to determine the 
length of time in which acid used for removing ink marks has 
been applied? A. There is no way. 
Q. Now, Prof. Babcock, is that signature of Margaret 
Welch in iron ink? A. That I hadn’t examined. I can do so 
and ascertain the fact. In my judgment it is. 2864 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
Apr. 
Q. Have you your preparation here with you ? A. No, I 
have not; but I will have that here in an hour. 
Q. What effect would the dilution of nutgalls, that you 
speak of, have upon a pencil mark? A. It would have no 
effect upon a pencil mark that I know of. Perhaps I ought to 
qualify that a little. It may be that some sorts of lead contain 
a trace of iron, and, if so, it might assist in bringing that out; 
but as a general thing I should say that nutgalls would have no 
material action upon lead in bringing it out. 
Q. Not if there was a dilution of nutgalls applied to re- 
move the pounce, supposing the pounce had been applied in such 
a way as to bring out the pencil marks more clearly? A. 1 
cannot say that that might not be, but I don’t think that if any 
of those marks had been pencil marks they would have been 
brought out by the nutgalls. 
Q. Why not? A. From the looks of them and appear- 
ance, from the color of the ink itself; the color produced. The 
color there is due to the action of the iron in the nutgalls. * 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Ransom, will you get me the register of 
37,792? 
Gov. Butler. I can tell you what is on it. 
Mr. Brown. I want to see the register. 
[A messenger went for the register.] 
Gov. Butler. Margaret Welch: she wasn’t settled with at 
all. She left. The other one died, and she wasn’t settled with 
at all — the 15 one. The other one, Ellen Allen, she died and 
wasn’t settled with at all, and the State wasn’t there to see that 
she was settled with. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, take the “ 1 ” of the 15. Can 
you tell me whether that 1 was made before the red ink line was 
drawn through there or since? A. Oh, I think the 41 1” was 
made originally before the red line was drawn through it. 
Q. But I understood you could not tell? A. Well, that is 
rather a matter of inference from the known action of acid on 
the red and on the iron. It is not by an}’ inspection. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) The best of all black inks are 
made of gallate of iron? A. All common inks years ago were ; 
but not now. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) What have they now? A. They 
have an aniline color; some logwood basis. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) But all the original inks made by 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2865 
Noyes and others, are made of what is called gallate of iron? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is a preparation of gallic acid and iron? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Then when you put on tartaric acid or oxalic acid it 
changes the gallate of iron into oxalic? A. Yes, sir; that is 
colorless. 
Q. Then, when you restore the gallic acid, that makes the 
ink again, or as we commonly say, brings out the figure? A. 
Yes, sir; that is substantiall}* the philosophy of it. 
Gov. Butler. Now, we will figure up this. 
Testimony of Francis B. Records {recalled) 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. You beard the testimony of Charles Marsh as to what 
these figures 7, 7, 14, 14, 14 were for plugs of tobacco, didn’t 
you? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon ; there was no such testimony as 
that. 
The Chairman. It was for small matters like plugs of to- 
bacco. 
Gov. Butler. I asked him about that and he said it was 
for plugs of tobacco. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon; you cannot find it upon the 
record. 
Gov. Butler. Here it is, 7 upon this page, right on, 7, 7, 7, 
7, 7, 7, and 14, 14, 14, and 7, 7, and 14, — 1G1, it is then 
added up, I think. 14, 14, 14, — and it was explained that 
that was for small matters like a plug of tobacco, — it may 
have been about the same size. 
Q. Now, sir, have 3*011 examined to see how many of these, 
how many of those inmates had those amounts charged to 
them ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. What is the judgment you want? 
Mr. Brown. Whether it is competent to go into that. The 
book is there and it speaks for itself. 
Gov. Butler. 1 beg pardon ; I have examined it. It is in 
direct contradiction of Charles Marsh. 
Mr. Brown. He don’t state what the number was. He made 
no calculation as to what the numbers 14 and 7 were. He has 
never been asked that question. 2866 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Gov. Butler. He has put forward those figures as a state- 
ment of the accounts. If allowed to do so I shall show it is 
not correct. 
Mr. Brown. If it is tried to show it didn’t go for tobacco or 
such things, that may lie correct. 
Gov. Butler. I am going to show it. I propose to con- 
tradict Charles Marsh. 
The Chairman. What is the specific question? 
Gov. Butler. The specific question is whether you have 
examined the number of people who have had these 7, 7, 7, 7 
credited and charged to them on this cash-book, and to tell me 
now how man}r are males and how many are females, because 
the females chew an immense quantity of tobacco up there. 
The Chairman There is now and then one that does. I 
think it is competent, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. I won’t press it any further. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Tell me, in the first place, of the 
amount of entries, 7, 7, and II — what is the whole number of 
them? A. The whole number, of either 1 or more than 1, or 7 
or 14 or 21, —there are 10G individuals. 
Q. How many of them are women? A. 44. 
Q. So that if these charges to inmates were for tobacco, 
there must have been —44 out of the 106 inmates that chewed 
tobacco must have been women? 
The Chairman. The testimon}7, as I remember it, was for 
small things like plugs of tobacco. 
Gov. Butler. I understand. [To witness.] Now, sir, you 
found by looking at the records — you know this Mrs. Allen 
died when there; so that of those two cases where there have 
been assistance one had absconded and the other had died, so 
that there was nobody to settle with. 
Mr. Brown. The book shows. 
Gov. Butler. I understand it. 
Witness. Emily Locke died within a few months of ad- 
mission, and Margaret Welch absconded. 
Q. How long after? A. A month or more. 
Mr. Brown. It isn’t very reasonable that a man takes 
money from an absconded person. 
Gov. Butler. Now, in the case of 15, I want to call the 
attention of the committee that there is no credit or charge at 
all. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2867 
Mr. Brown. When was that, Governor? You say no credit 
or charge at all? 
Gov. Butler. As appears on the books. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Have }rou accounted for the number 
of persons on that book of inmates’ cash at anytime? A. The 
whole number of persons that appear? 
Q. That appear on that inmates’ cash? A. No, sir. 
Q. And will you do it and hand it to me, and also each of 
the persons on the other books? A. The provisions went to 
them — 
Q. Everything on that inmates’ cash-book? A. It is so 
mixed up I didn’t pay any attention to it. 
Q. Give us the number of persons whose names appear on 
the inmates’ cash? A. I will, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Learnard.) Have you been to the Tewksbury 
institution? A. No, sir. 
Q. Are }Tou aware of the fact that there is a smoking-room 
for old ladies there ? A. I am not. 
Mr. Learnard. I wanted that to go in. 
Mr. Brown. I guess you can find 100 of them smoking 
there to-day. 
Gov. Butler. Precisely so, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Unless they have lost their pipes. 
Testimony of Charles Henry Farnsworth (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. How many years have you been in the practice of sur- 
gery? A. As a physician and surgeon ever since 1847. 
Q. Were you called to take charge of Mr. Wade’s arm, the 
chief of police ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who was called in consultation with you or acted with 
you ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. What is your judgment now? 
Mr. Brown. What has that to do with Tewksbury? 
Gov. Butler. You will find out. 
The Chairman. The question was what? 
Gov. Butler. Who was called in consultation with him? 
The Chairman. In any particular case? 
Gov. Butler. In Chief Wade’s case. 
Mr. Brown. Who was shot by a crazy lunatic since this in- 
vestigation began. 2868 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
Gov. Butler. And he was assisted by Dr. Dixwell. I was 
going to call Chief Wade, who called him in. 
Mr. Brown. I will let the committee and His Excellency put 
it in, if the governor will let me put in Mr. Innis’s, the officer 
who sits here, opinion of Dr. Dixwell. 
The Chairman. We cannot be trading. 
Gov. Butler. If my testimony is competent let it go in, and 
if not let it be ruled out. 
Mr. Brown. How does it affect his reputation? 
Gov. Butler. It doesn’t affect his reputation. He is at- 
tacked in two ways. This gentleman don’t know him by repu- 
tation. Dr. Dixwell has been called by the counsel, more than 
twenty times, a maniac or a lunatic. 
Mr. Brown. Why don’t you call his family to show that I 
am in error? 
Gov. Butler. I haven’t got time enough. There are gentle- 
men here who have known him long enough. You will be 
ashamed of that — no, 3Tou won’t: you won’t be ashamed of any- 
thing. What I mean to say is, I am going to show that he isn’t 
a lunatic, if you will permit. 
The Chairman. That is, you will show he performed a skill- 
ful surgical operation. 
Gov. Butler. That is, he was called and did it. 
The Chairman. I think it is competent. I don’t know about 
the weight of it. 
Gov. Butler. That is a question gentlemen will differ about. 
The Chairman. If you still object, Mr. Brown, I will put it 
to the committee. 
Mr. Brown. No ; I won’t object. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Well, Doctor? A. I will state it 
as it was. Mr. Wade was brought home to East Cambridge, 
where I reside and have been his physician for several years, 
and lie was accompanied by Dr. Dixwell and Dr. Smith, and 
Mr. Wade requested them to wait until I came in before there 
was anything done. Then, when I came in, the question was 
whether the bullet should be extracted. Dr. Dixwell and Dr. 
Smith both said — 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee, that we 
are not to have what these people said. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) There was a consultation upon that 
subject? A. The question was whether to extract the bullet, 
without what was said. I decided that the bullet should be ex- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2869 
tracted, and directed Dr. Dixwell to make the incision where 
I supposed the bullet was to be found ; and he made the incis- 
ion. After making the incision he requested Dr. Smith to ex- 
amine the wound, and Dr. Smith did so. He took Dr. Dix- 
well’s place and examined the wound, and by pressing upon the 
outside of the arm I felt what I thought was the bullet, a little 
in advance of the termination of the incision, and I requested 
Dr. Smith to make the incision a little longer. Then Dr. Smith, 
by putting the finger into the wound, said he felt the bullet. I 
told him if that was the case to draw it out and he did so. 
After that two or three small arteries were secured and taken 
up and the wound dressed. 
Q. Did you meet Dr. Dixwell with 3’our patient at any other 
time? A. Dr. Dixwell was in the next morning for a few 
minutes. 
Q. While }~QU were there? A. I was there ; }res, sir. 
Q. Now, Doctor, did you see any evidence of aberration of 
mind in Dr. Dixwell during that time? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did it ever occur to you that he wasn’t as sane as any- 
body? A. No, sir. 
Q. You say it didn’t occur to you at that time. Have you 
known Dr. Dixwell long? A. No, sir; I saw him just at the 
time that wound was being attended to. Then a few minutes 
the next morning is all the knowledge I have of him. 
Q. So you don’t know whether he was called by Chief Wade, 
or went in himself and stuck by him until he got him to Cam 
bridge? A. No, sir; I don’t know anything about it. 
Q. Are you an expert in insanity? A. No, sir. 
Q. You are not? A. I attended the case in hand without 
thought of anything else. 
Q. AYell, if several gentlemen who are experts in insanity, 
and well established here in their profession in Boston, should 
say that Dr. Dixwell was of unsound mind, you wouldn’t set up 
your little experience with him in contradiction of them? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. And wouldn’t want to? A. I would have nothing to 
say about it. 
Q. You don't know anything about his reputation for truth 
and veracit}'? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never seen or heard of him before? A. No, sir. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Broivn. 2870 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) Where do you reside? A. At 
East Cambridge. 
Testimony of Rufus R. Wade {sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. You are the chief of police, Mr. Wade? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long have you known Dr. Dixwell? A. I have 
known Dr. Dixwell some four years. 
Q. How near have your places been? A. He was agent 
of the society for the prevention of cruelty to children, and had 
an office immediately under mine. 
Q. That is a Chardon Street society? A. I am not quite 
certain. 
Q. Who is at the head of it; Mr. Frothingham? A. I 
think he was at one time. 
Q. I only wanted to identify it. Did his having to do with 
that class of business of taking care of children bring you in 
contact with him? A. He frequently consulted with me. 
Q. We have heard that he had to do with your arm ; has he 
been in attendance upon you ? A. He has been twice at my 
house. 
Q. Now, sir, during your four years’ acquaintance with him, 
have you ever seen an}r signs of lunacy or insanity about him? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. During your four years’ acquaintance with him have you 
ever heard, until t his investigation commenced, his character for 
truth and veracity questioned? A. Never, sir. 
Gov. Butler. The witness is yours. 
Gross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. You say you have been acquainted with him four years? 
A. I should say about four years. 
Q. During that four years you have been chief of the dis- 
trict-police? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you became acquainted with him four years ago? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Is Mr. Innis one of your officers? A. Tie is, sir. 
Q. Did you ever detail Mr. Innis to investigate Dr. Dix- 
well? A. Never, to my recollection. 
Q. Did lie ever investigate Dr. Dixwell since he has been 
on the police force? A. Not to my knowledge. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2871 
Q. Not to your knowledge. You have heard so since? 
A. I think I have. 
Q. And you heard he investigated him as one of the dis- 
trict police? A. No, sir. 
Q. Well, you heard he was in the employ of the State when 
he investigated him, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, did 3'ou call Dr. Dixwell to attend to you when 
you were wounded? A. 1 did not. I will state exactly the 
facts. 
Q. Answer my question. A. 1 did not, nor no other 
physician. 
Q. You don’t know anything about how he came there ex- 
cept what you have heard since? A. 1 haven’t heard since. 
Q. Did you invite him to come to your house? A. I did 
not. If you will let me state just what are the facts — 
Q. I beg pardon; wait until I get through. You never 
heard his character for truth and veracity called in question? 
A. I never did until this investigation. 
Q. Did you read the article published in the Boston Post 
on the 2d day of July, 1881, entitled “Dixwell Exposed?” 
A. I did not. 
Q. And it never came to your attention? A. Not to my 
knowledge. 
Q. Did you ever have any conversation with anybody about 
that article? A. I don’t think I ever did. 
Q. And, so far as you know, that article entitled “ Dixwell 
Exposed,” in the Boston Post, has never been retracted or 
answered ? 
Gov. Butler. He don’t know anything about it. I object 
to that question. 
The Witness. I don’t know anything about it. 
Gov. Butler. He don’t know it was ever published. They 
might have got out a special edition. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Testimony of Asbury G. Smith (sworn). 
Q. Dr. Smith, you are now surgeon, — I want to make this 
as short as possible,—you are now surgeon at the McLean 
Asylum for the insane, are you? A. No; I occupy the posi- 
tion there as interne, simply ; house olticer, 
Q. House olticer? A. Yes, sir. 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 2872 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You are a physician and surgeon? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Mow long have you been there ? A. I have been there 
— I went there last September — a little over nine months. 
Q. Where were you educated, sir? A. Harvard Medical 
School. 
Q. As a man acquainted with insane people, I want to ask 
you this question : whether, in your judgment, insane people are 
to be treated as sick, and, as such, need the care of a physician 
and surgeon as much as any other class of patients? A. I 
think so. 
Q. Would you think it well to put insane people under the 
care simply of uninstructed persons for a long period of time? 
A. Not without some supervision. 
Q. Not without some supervision by a doctor, I mean? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. I mean that, of course. A. There would have to be 
some inexperienced men about it, because they have got to get 
experience. 
Q. To take care of them as insane patients. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I desire to go to another thing. Were you ever in 
the employ of the board of state charities, in Mr. Wheelwright’s 
office? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. ITow long ago? A. About three years ago, — three or 
four years ago I first went there. 
Q. How long did you remain in that employ? A. Some 
over three years. 
Q. Were you at the same time in the Harvard Medical 
.School? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Whether Dr. Wheelwright made an arrangement by which 
you and two of your fellow-students should get bodies from 
Tewksbury ? 
Mr. Brown. Now, J pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. I am content to have the judgment prayed. 
What about? 
Mr. Brown. This is entirely new matter; never a sugges- 
tion of it before. 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly we have not presented it before ; 
my turn has not come before. 
The Chairman. Put the question again, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. The question is whether Dr. Wheelwright 
made arrangements by which he and two others of the em- 
ployees in his office might get dead bodies from Tewksbury, 1883. 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2873 
and whether he got them. It don’t take a witch to see where it 
is going. I am now trying to show that it is false when it is 
said that these bodies were delivered under bonds, if I can. 
The Chairman. Why didn’t you show that, Governor, 
before ? 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Chairman. Why didn’t you show that when you had the 
case in hand? 
Gov. Butler. Because I didn’t suppose anybody would ever 
claim it. 
The Chairman. Claim what? 
Gov. Butler. I am now contradicting the witnesses,—Nourse 
and the old man, and all of these who have sworn about dead 
bodies. How should I know they would not tell the truth and 
own it, beforehand ; and I supposed they would till I saw Miss 
Manning on the stand. 
Mr. Brown. Then you had ample notice. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; I had ample notice they would probably 
all lie. 
Mr. Buown. You didn’t close till nearly sixty days after 
that — thirty days. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I am in the hands of the committee 
upon that. 
The Chairman. I don’t see, Governor, why it would not 
open the whole case to the other side. 
Gov. Butler. It don’t open the whole case at all. They 
have undertaken to put in their case, and all that it opens is, 
it opens to them to put in rebutting testimony ; they can put in 
testimony that this gentleman lies; they can prove an alibi for 
him, if they want to ; they can prove that he was not there at all, 
or prove that he don’t tell the truth. It don’t open the whole 
case ; it opens this particular matter. 
The Chairman. Exactly. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, and that should be open ; that is 
always opened by rebutting evidence. Or else there isn’t any 
such thing as rebutting evidence, because rebutting evidence 
can only be put in when it is pertinent to the case put in. 
The Chairman. Put in to contradict the case made out by 
the defence. 4 
Gov. Butler. By the defence, yes ; and that is what this is 
done for. It has been attempted to be made out by the defence 
that these bodies were all delivered under certain restrictions to 2874 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
certain people. I am going to try to show that it is not so, if I 
may be permitted. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, there never has been such evi- 
dence in the defence, because there has never been any cause 
for it; there has never been any such charge made against this 
institution as that till this moment. Now, I want to say. one 
word here, — because His Excellency has referred to it so many 
times, that this is an investigation, — Mr. Nourse, Mr. Marsh, 
junior and senior, and all the Marsh family, have, been within 
reach of His Excellency’s subpccna from the commencement of 
this hearing to the end. But Ilis Excellency has been in a 
peculiarly fortunate position. This is an investigation; he 
could call anybody, and, if he was not satisfied with their evi- 
dence, he could produce other evidence to show what the fact 
was. It was perfectly pertinent and proper for him to have 
called witnesses to show that Miss Manning was not honest, as 
a part of his case ; but he didn’t do it, and Miss Manning stands 
to-day just as well as any other witness who has appeared be- 
fore this committee, subject, only, to the criticism as to what 
she did and what she said, and what the committee saw. Not 
a syllable has been uttered against Miss Manning’s character, 
or that her business was not properly conducted, was not ac- 
curately conducted ; that the receipts which she gave for money 
were not true, and everything connected with her business 
fairly, squarely and honorably done. Now, this is the first 
suggestion that has been thrown out from the commencement to 
the present time, that a body has ever been delivered by these 
trustees or from this institution without a bond, — the first inti- 
mation that 1 ever heard. Now, that is entirely new. We have 
not said, there is no witness, Ilis Excellency cannot point to a 
syllable of testimony where any witness in the defence has said 
there never was a body delivered without a bond. We have 
only undertaken to meet the charges which Ilis Excellency has 
preferred and prosecuted against us, to wit, that we delivered 
bodies, under the law, to the Harvard medical college and to 
different medical colleges. That is all. We never heard of 
Dr. Wheelwright before, —except that, prior to 1873, he had 
the management of the delivery of the dead for anatomical pur- 
poses from this institution. That is all we ever heard. 
Gov. Butler. Dr. Wheelwright? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir ; Dr. Wheelwright; I am surprised you 
have forgotten that. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2875 
Mr. Mellen. I would say, Mr. Chairman, that early in the 
hearing the chairman brought, in tins matter and asked, on page 
24, “ At this time, at the time you were doing this, Doctor, did 
you know of your own knowledge whether the medical college 
procured the bodies properly or not?” It seems to me it has 
been in issue in this investigation whether these bodies were 
received properly or improperly, and the Tewksbury people 
have denied that they were delivered improperly, — so it seems 
to me particularly material if this witness can prove they have 
been delivered improperly without a bond. 
Mr. Brown. I thank the gentleman for his suggestion, be- 
cause it brings out more clearly to my mind, and I trust I shall 
be able to make it more clear to the committee, that what I 
previously said is correct and true. This man Dixwell — 
Gov. Butler. This lunatic Dixwell! 
Mr. Brown. . This man Dixwell,—the governor says lunatic; 
I accept the amendment, — testified to the delivery of these 
bodies; and then the chairman asked whether he, Dixwell, 
knew that they were; delivered properly according to the forms 
of law. Well, now, on the twenty-fourth page, — 1 think that 
was the first evening of the investigation, — the bond which had 
been given by the Harvard Medical School hadn’t been offered 
in evidence, didn’t appear in any way, shape or manner; and 
Dixwell said, substantially, in substance, that he didn’t know 
anything about it. Now, that is precisely the way the matter 
stands, and I can only say to the committee, as I said yester- 
day,— nine times, T think, the record shows that this question 
was raised yesterday, and seven times the committee voted to 
exclude this line of testimony because it was new,—now, if we 
are going into this question, I submit the same proposition that 
I submitted yesterday, and ask the committee to divide the re- 
maining time between ITis Excellency and myself so I can reply 
to it. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, I maintain that the gentleman 
has not detracted anything from my suggestion. I say now, as 
I remarked a moment ago, that the chairman, himself, put the 
query, and the chairman, himself, and, I presume, every mem- 
ber of the committee, was anxious to know if this institution 
was delivering bodies improperly, contrary to law and without a 
bond from the people to whom the}’ delivered them. I say it 
has been in issue throughout this case, and the gentlemen from 
Tewksbury,— the}’ have denied doing any such illegal act. 2876 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. Won’t you find that, where an}7 witness on the 
part of the management has answered any such question? 
Mr. Mellen. I say it has run through the ease ; it is one of 
the issues, and it lias come to a very peculiar pass if we are to 
be debarred from taking evidence as to the improper conduct of 
the officers of this institution in this respect. I say it is not 
new evidence, other than in rebuttal it is evidence we have not 
heard before, but it is pertaining to a matter that we have 
been interested in, and we should continue interested to the 
end. I say it is very proper that the question should be admit- 
ted, and that we should know whether somebody in this State 
House, a State official, has been conniving with the officials at 
Tewksbury to do an illegal and an improper act. 
The Chairman. The great struggle, Governor, in issue in 
this case, as I take it, has been to prove that dead bodies have 
been illegally disposed of. That is the specific charge in the 
address, and the one to which the governor has addressed him- 
self. That was the matter to lie proved before this committee, 
that dead bodies had been disposed of illegally. When the 
governor closed, it was incumbent upon the defence, if they 
had any, to meet the case which he had made. If he saw fit 
not to put in his case, he ran the risk that parties always run 
in any court, to have it rejected when he comes to put it in in 
rebuttal. Of course, it is in the discretion of the committee 
to admit any evidence; but, if it is admitted, the other side, it 
seems to me, should meet it, and that, certainly, can’t be done 
in the two days allotted for the work. But — 
Mr. Mellen. If you will permit me, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. The committee must settle it. 
Mr. Mellen. They have denied the doing of any such 
thing; now. it is for the governor to prove that they have falsi- 
fied, in rebuttal. It seems to me that that is common-sense. 
The Chairman. But not by putting in original matter. 
Mr. Mellen. Anything that is a denial must be, to that ex- 
tent, original; it must be new to that extent. I submit this is 
in contradiction, it is in rebuttal, and it is eminently proper that 
it should be admitted. 
The Chairman. The committee must settle it. 
Mr. Murphy. Will you state the question ; I came in a little 
late. 
The Chairman. The question is whether this gentleman 
shall be allowed to answer whether Dr. Wheelwright made an 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2877 
arrangement with him to deliver bodies from the State Alms- 
house at Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. Not made an arrangement witli him. Made 
an arrangement at the State almshouse to have bodies delivered 
to him. 
Mr. Brown. To him and others. 
Gov. Butler. To him and two other gentlemen who were 
with him, for their use. 
[The committee voted six to three to admit the question.] 
The Chairman. I vote in the negative. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I give notice that I shall ask the com- 
mittee to divide the remainder of the time so I may meet this 
question. 
Gov. Butler. I think we had better have a vote upon that; 
because, if the committee vote that, I shall be obliged to with- 
draw my witness, and take some other matter which, perhaps, 
is more important. I think we had better have it settled now, 
because I can’t go on without I know where I am. 
The Chairman. The question is, whether time shall be given 
to the respondents to meet this testimony. 
Mr. Mellen. I think this is a matter — 
Gov. Butler. I think we had better have a vote now, be- 
cause I am not going to be threatened with this every hour. 
Mr. Mellen. I think this is a question for the House to de- 
termine. I am in favor of the legislature giving more time, 
giving the gentleman all the time he wants, giving the people 
of Tewksbury all the time thej" want. But I say it is unfair for 
him to endeavor to keep out evidence that is vital, in the 
opinion of the governor and of some of the members of the com- 
mittee, and I think it is procrastinating. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I ask for this, — if I ma}r be 
permitted to say a word, — because I never heard of this mat- 
ter before ; it has never been suggested that airy such evidence 
existed, before this occasion, and I say that it is eminently 
unfair and unreasonable to allow the managers and officers of 
this institution to be charged with anything of this kind with- 
out having an opportunity to make their defence. Now, the 
gentleman from Worcester of the committee is a member of the 
House ; I am not. He can go to the House and advocate his 
cause; I cannot. I am obliged to address myself to this com- 
mittee, and I say to. the committee, now, that the committee 
having decided to admit this testimony, as a matter of right 2878 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
you should indicate, before the time named in the order of the 
legislature when this hearing must be closed, you should indi- 
cate that I shall have some time in which to answer this new 
proposition ; because, it is admitted on all hands that it is new. 
Gov. Butler. I do not admit it; I want it distinctly under- 
stood. 1 think it can be settled; I do not object to any time 
being given at all,—but 1 want to ascertain, before I go on 
with my rebutting evidence, whether such a motion will be 
entertained. Let us have it settled now, in justice to all par- 
ties. 
The Chairman. It had better be settled now, I think. 
Gov. Butler. If Mr, Brown thinks, in justice, he should 
have a portion of my time, and the committee think so, then I 
shall have to take one course. If, of the two days which have 
been allotted to me,—I have lost most of one of them,— if of the 
few days belonging to me, only two now, a portion is to be 
taken, then, of course, 1 shall go to the weightier matters of the 
law, if I have any. Therefore, I wish this question might be 
settled now. 
The Chairman. I think it had better, too. 
Gov. Butler. I ought to say, further, that, although it im- 
poses labor upon me that I should like to get rid of, I wish that 
the House would give the fullest opportunity, would give us 
more time ; and because there is a very grave question to lie 
settled now, and the Senate cannot deal with it — the question of 
Mr. Marsh’s recusancy — till Friday, and then I shall have no 
time to examine those books. Suppose he should come in then 
and say, “ Well, if you order me to give them to him, I will 
turn them over,” why, then, it would be as useless a perform- 
ance, so far as I am concerned, as it would be to hand me a 
glass of water, and not so useful, because I have no time to 
examine them. Therefore, the House voted under one state of 
facts ; now, there is another. I hope time will be given if any- 
body wants it; certainly it must be given if any portion of ni}T 
time is to be taken away. 
The Chairman. The committee now are under orders to 
close the hearing on Friday, and I suppose we must assume 
that the hearing must be closed on Friday, till otherwise 
ordered. I think, if this evidence goes in, the question whether 
Mr. Brown should be given time to meet it or not should be 
settled now. It is a question which should be settled between 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300 
2879 
the counsel, and it should be known how much time is to be 
given. 
Mr. Chamberlain. Whatever may be the desire of the 
counsel on either side to prolong this hearing, I do not believe 
that a vote can be passed through either branch of the legis- 
lature to prolong it. On the one sjde, I understand His Excel- 
lency lias said that he had accomplished what lie desired and 
that there was no need of continuing this hearing any longer, 
even, perhaps, a fortnight ago. Now, on the other side, the 
counsel claims that if this evidence is coming in he must have 
time to reply. Now, I believe that about everybody lias had 
enough of this hearing ; and I do not believe it ought to be pro- 
longed because either one of the counsel desires that it should 
be. If this is coming in, — I voted not to allow this testimony 
to come in, because I believed it to be new, or cumulative. If 
it was either, it has no place, in my judgment, in rebuttal to 
what has been put in upon the othej' side. Now, as it goes in, 
it does seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that there should be some 
chance to reply to it, but I believe that opportunity should come 
between now and next Friday night. And, for one, I am will- 
ing to sit here three sessions a day, morning and afternoon and 
evening, and perhaps it can be accomplished in that way. 
Mr. Murphy. I think that Mr. Chamberlain takes the wrong 
view of the matter, inasmuch as by the vote of the committee 
the evidence is admitted as rebutting evidence. 
The Chairman. No; it is admitted. 
Mr. Murphy. Admitted as rebutting evidence; that is the 
way I take it, Mr. Chairman, and, as a consequence, I don’t see 
how we can give Mr. Brown an opportunity between now and 
Friday to make any answer to it in the view of its being new 
evidence, unless, as Mr. Mellen suggests, we get an opportunity 
from the legislature to sit longer for his accommodation. L 
believe, sir, that the time has been unnecessarily curtailed for 
this investigation, and if either side think they are aggrieved, 
then the proper way is to go to the legislature, which has cur- 
tailed it, and ask for a longer time. 
Mr. Mellen. I believe that the proposition is decidedly 
unfair. I believe it means just this, — to curtail the governor 
just as much as it is possible. That is just what it means. He 
has got, at farthest, but a couple of days, and he has got many 
witnesses to summon — 2880 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. Your remark is rather unnecessary, I 
think. 
Mr. Murphy. Not very, I think. 
Mr. Mullen. By reason of some plans of the majority; 
that is my opinion. However, that has nothing to do with it, 
and I don’t think the chairman had any right to lug it in. 
The Chairman. No; I withdraw it; I withdraw it. 
Mr. Mullen. Now, sir, I realize that it is within the power 
of the majority, as it was expressed yesterday, to do as they 
please with the minority; to do as much as they please for 
Tewksbury or Tewksbury’s counsel, and to cut oIf the privileges 
of His Excellency in the matter of putting in rebuttal evidence ; 
but I must protest against the curtailment of his two or three 
days by the introduction of matter by Mr. Brown that I don’t 
think, now, is competent. 1 say that the committee have voted 
to admit this. I put it upon the ground, in making the motion, 
that it was in rebuttal; it was in denial, in contradiction of 
what the Tewksbury people say ; and I have an idea that those 
who voted for it were of the same mind as myself. If that be 
true, then Mr. Brown has no right, even from a legal, technical 
standpoint, if I know anything at all about the legal standpoint, 
to bring in matter again on this point. 
Mr. Gilmore. Mr. Chairman, I voted to admit this question, 
considering it entirely new business, but it seemed to me to be 
of a good deal of importance and I thought I would like to hear 
it; but I also believe that Mr. Brown ought to and should have 
the right to answer it. I think he should be entitled to that 
right. 
The Chairman. I will put the question, if there is no ob- 
jection. 
Gov. Butler. I want it distinctly understood that I express 
no personal desire on the question one way or the other ; I only 
want to know what is to be done and accommodate myself to 
it. 
Mr. Risteen. I am perfectly willing, Mr. Chairman, that 
Mr. Brown should have an opportunity to put in any evidence 
in rebuttal, and I should dlieerfully vote for an extra session of 
this committee to give him that privilege, but I don’t think the 
time should be taken from His Excellency that has been allotted 
to him for putting in his rebutting evidence. And if the com- 
mittee will vote for a special meeting, further than they had in- 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2881 
tended to have, I will cheerfully vote for it in order to give Mr. 
Brown an opportunity to put it in. 
The Chairman. The question is whether Mr. Brown shall 
have opportunity to reply to this evidence. 
Gov. Butler. To eotne out of the time betwixt now and 
Friday. 
Mr. Mellen. I move the matter be deferred. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no; let's have it settled now. 
The Chairman. The governor asks to have it settled now, 
and 1 think it ought to be, because there is the matter of argu- 
ments and other things to be arranged. 
Mr. Chamberlain. If the committee voted to let this in as 
rebuttal, I must bow, as I always do, to the will of the majority, 
because I believe they ought to rule. 
Mr. Mellen. Bow now, then. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I am going to. 
Mr. Mellen. But you are not; you are kicking. 
The Chairman. The question is whether Mr. Brown shall 
have time between now and Friday night to reply to this evi- 
dence. 
Gov. Butler. I have got some more like it. 
The Chairman. And any other like it. 
[The motion was carried, live to four.] 
Gov. Butler. Now, how much time shall be given to Mr. 
Brown? 
Mr. Brown. I was just going to ask that question. 
Mr. Walcott. I move that the time be given in a night ses- 
sion, either to-night or to-morrow night, as may best suit the 
convenience. 
The Chairman. Any other night but Friday night. 
Mr. Brown. I would suggest this, Mr. Chairman. The 
governor says “ this and more like it; ” now, upon how much 
more like it there is will depend very much how much time I shall 
want. If this thing is going on till Friday afternoon, I don’t 
think it would be hardly fair to say I may have Friday evening 
to answer “ this and more like it.” 
Mr. Murfhy. An evening is a long time, Mr. Brown ; have 
a good long session, commence at half-past seven and end at 
twelve o’clock. 
Mr. Gilmore. Perhaps the committee would not agree to 
that. 2882 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. I might be embarrassed by lack of a quorum 
of the committee. 
Mr. Murphy. I don’t think you would ; I live in the city. 
Gov. Butler. I say more of this kind of evidence. There 
are various matters of contradiction I shall want to put in that 
1 think Mr. Brown will want to answer quite as much as he 
wants to answer this. -I am going to contradict his case, if 1 
am permitted by the committee, in pretty much every point, and 
then he will have to deal with my witnesses. 1 want to be very 
frank about it. For instance, I am going on, by and by, with 
Mr. Burns ; he will cover a wide space of ground. Now, if the 
committee see fit to take away the time which is for me to do 
that in, then I must advise with myself what course I must 
take. 
Mr. Brown. I hope, Mr. Chairman, that the matter of the 
time may not be fixed. I am disposed to give the governor all 
the time there is between now and Friday, till we see about how 
much there is of this. 
Gov. Butler. I am not going on that way ; if you are going 
to take a day or a half a day, let me know it. 
[The committee took a recess at this point for consultation.] 
The Chairman. Proceed with the testimony. At the close 
of this hearing we will, with the counsel, consult with regard to 
fixing any time when the other side may be heard. 
Gov. Butler. What time do you adjourn? 
The Chairman. Probably adjourn at half-past twelve. 
Gov. Butler. To what time? 
The Chairman. Till two. 
Q (By Gov. Butler.) Now, Doctor, the question I pro- 
pounded was this: Whether, while you were in the employ of 
Dr. Wheelwright of the in-door poor department, he made an 
arrangement by which you and two other of his employees could 
get a body from Tewksbury, and if you went and got it? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. He did? A. He did. 
Q. AVJio delivered it to yon? A. Mr. Marsh. 
Q. And by Mr. Marsh you mean Thomas J., I suppose? 
A. Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. 
Q. Yes; Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. AV ho were the other gentle- 
men who were with you in the use of this body? A. One was 
Walter Carl and the other was Arthur AVitherell. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2883 
Q. Were they both in the employ of Dr. Wheelwright’s 
office? A. They were; yes, sir. 
Q. I)r. Wheelwright was not instructing }’on in anatomy, 
exactly, was he? A. No, sir. 
Q. Yon were employees in his ollice? And, at the same 
time you were in the medical school? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, were you employed to get another one ? Was 
an arrangement made by which you could get another one ? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Where was that body, the first body, taken for dissec- 
tion? A. To the Harvard Medical School. 
Q. And dissected by you three as much as you chose to 
dissect it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where was the second one taken? A. It was delivered 
to the city undertaker to be delivered to the Boston Dental 
College. 
Q. It was delivered to the city undertaker. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Tinkham? 
The Witness. Yes, sir. 
Q. You delivered it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. I will go back a little. You went up, personally, with a 
horse and wagon and got the body, did you, the first one? A. 
Yes. 
Q. And the second one? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Why was it delivered to the city undertaker? A. To 
be left at the Boston dental school. 
Q. Was it there where you dissected that? A. I didn’t 
have anything to do with that body at the Boston dental 
school; I simply transported that one. 
Q. You simply transferred it; the first one was the one you 
had for dissection, you three gentlemen? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The second one, an arrangement was made that you 
should,— well, why were you employed as transportation agent? 
They had plenty of transposition up to Tewksbury, we have 
heard? A. Well, I don’t know, I am sure. 
Q. I mean for the second one. The first, I can understand 
why you should go after it, because }’on wanted it yourself, but 
the second one? That was delivered to you by Thomas J. 
Marsh, was it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the first time you had one of your young friends go 
up with you? A. Yes. 
Q. And the second one you did not? A. No, sir. 2884 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And Thomas J. Marsh delivered it in person, himself? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Assisted you in handling it, putting it aboard ? A. 
Yes. 
Q. Anybody else assist? A. No. sir. 
Q. When was this, Doctor,— the first One,— as near as you 
can tell? A. It was two years ago this last winter. 
Q. The first one was two years ago this last winter ; and 
the second one was when? A. A }rear ago last winter. 
Q. Then, if I understand, you were carrying on your studies 
at Harvard at the same time',you were in the employ of the 
State? A. Yes. 
Q. Medical studies; how long were you there graduating? 
A. Four years. 
Q. How long were you emploj’ed by the State? A. Some 
over three years. 
Q. Some over three years. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And your employment for the State was what? A. As 
medical visitor for the out-door poor department. 
Q. That is for Dr. Wheelwright’s department? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Out-door visitor; and did you commence the duties of 
medical visitor of the out-door poor department at the same 
time you commenced your studies in the medical college? A. 
I didn’t take charge of the work. 
Q. What? A. I didn’t do any medical work during m}r 
first year at all. 
Q. Didn’t do any work the first year, but the last two. Is 
what you said about your employment also applicable to the two 
other young gentlemen who were with you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. They held the same position you did ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you got paid how much a month for your services 
to the State? A. Fifty dollars. 
Gov. Butler. The witness is yours, Mr. Brown. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. How old are you ? A. Twenty-four. 
Q. Twenty-four years old. A. Nearly twenty-five. 
Q. Where do your parents reside? A. Woburn. 
Q. You are a graduate of Harvard College? A. Yes, sir; 
of the medical college. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2885 
Q. Are you a graduate from the academic department? A. 
Not of the university. 
Q. When did you first enter the Harvard Medical School? 
A. In ’79. 
Q. Fall term? A. Yes. 
Q. Now, what was the date when you entered the employ of 
the Commonwealth? A. In August of the same year, sir. 
Q. August of the same year. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What were the names of the other two persons? A. 
One was Walter Carl and the other Arthur Withered. 
Q. Where does Walter — Carl, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What is his address ? A. Greenfield, I suppose. 
Q. Massachusetts? A. Yes. 
Q. Belongs there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And what is the address of the other; the third? A. 
Well, I rather guess it is Boston ; I think he stops in Boston. 
He is still on duty for the State and travelling about. 
Q. In Dr. Wheelwright’s department? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you all enter Dr. Wheelwright’s department at the 
same time? A. No, sir. 
Q. When you entered Dr. Wheelwright’s department were 
either of the others there employed? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Which? A. Both of them. 
Q. In the same business? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, what is this business of visiting the out-door poor? 
Gov. Butler. Medical visitors to the out-door poor. 
Mr. Brown. I understand. 
The Witness. When the overseers notify the out-door poor 
department of cases for aid and charity, we have to visit them 
and examine them, find out the legal settlement and see if they 
are cases for State aid or if they have a legal settlement in some 
town or city, and, if the}’ are sick, to find out their condition, 
and report. 
Q. Now, is there any limit, or do you go throughout the 
entire jurisdiction of the Commonwealth? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Anywhere? A. Yes. 
Q. Everywhere? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In the Commonwealth? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Agent of the out-door poor of the Common- 
wealth, Dr. Wheelwright is. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; so I supposed. 2886 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. And you were such officer and still in Harvard College? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. IIow did you do your duties in Harvard College and as 
this medical visitor, both ? A. I did my duties for the State 
and let the college exercises go, except when I could attend to 
them. 
Q. Except when you could attend them. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You did all the visiting for the State? A. All that my 
duties required me to do. 
Q. Well, didn’t your duties require you to give your entire 
time to the State? A. No, sir. 
Q. Why not? A. Because that was the agreement when I 
went there. 
Q. The agreement when you went there was what? Just 
give it to us. A. That 1 should have so much duty to perform 
and could do it at such time as I could. I was not required to 
do it at any particular time of the da}’, but whenever I could, 
and I could arrange it so as to attend to my studies to suit my- 
self, provided 1 did the required amount of work. 
Q. Well, now, when was it you got this body that went to 
the Harvard Medical School; givens the date? A. I can’t; 
it was during my second year, in the winter. 
Q. Well, what winter? A. That was two years ago this 
last winter. 
Q. The winter of ’81-’82, or ’80-81. A. ’80 and ’81, 1 
think. 
Q. In the winter of ’80 and ’81. You never saw that body 
till it got to the Harvard Medical School? A. No, sir. 
Q. You don’t know anything about — 
Gov. Butler. What was that? 
Mr. Brown. He says he never saw the body till it got to the 
Harvard Medical School. 
Q. You don’t know anything about what the arrangement 
was which you say Dr. Wheelwright made? Just answer my 
question, yes or no. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know except by hearsay ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. flow do you know ? A. Dr. Wheelwright told me. 
Q. Wait one moment; that is hearsay, isn’t it? A. Well, 
yes. 
Q. Now, do you know, I ask you again, do you know any- 
thing about the arrangement that was made, except by hear- 
say ? A. No, sir ; I do hot. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2887 
Q. l)o you know why you are called to testify about arrange- 
ments that you never heard of, or that you don’t know anything 
about except by hearsay? 
Gov. Butler. I object to that question ; he is not called 
here to testify about the arrangement; he is called to testif}’ to 
the fact that he went under the direction of Dr. Wheelwright, 
who had made an arrangement by which he got the body. 
Mr. Brown. Then let us understand, Governor, because it 
ma}' be very material; that is the only thing you put him on 
for, in order to show the fact, is it? 
Gov. Butler. To show the facts ; }Tes, sir. That is all I 
ever put a witness on for; I never call a witness except for 
that. 
Mr. Brown. Very well, then ; we will let that go. 
Q. Now, take the next bod}7, the one that went to the dental 
college ; you say that was delivered to Tinkham, the undertaker? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. An arrangement was made bv Dr. Wheelwright for that 
body, was there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you know anything about that body except hearsay? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. The body you took was delivered to Mr. Tinkham ; that 
is the undertaker on Howard Street, is it not? A. It was de- 
livered to the city morgue. 
Q. To the city morgue? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where was the first time you saw it? A. I have not 
seen the body; I didn’t see the body. 
Q. You never saw the body? A. No, sir. 
Q. How do you know one was delivered? Just tell us. A. 
I brought the coffin with something in it. 
Q. But you don’t know but Joe Chase might have filled it 
with billets of wood, do you? A. I don’t know anything about 
it; I didn’t see it. 
Gov. Butler. He may know what came out of that coffin. 
Mr. Brown. Let us see. 
Q. Did 3'ou open the coffin or see anything taken out of it ? 
A. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Then what the governor said is not true, that 
you knew what came out of that coffin, was it; he got a little 
ahead of his story. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, not at all, 2888 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, do you mean to tell this committee that you never 
saw that body till you came to dissect it? A. The first one? 
Q. No, the second one ; the one that went to the dental 
college? A. 1 never saw that at all. 
Q. Never saw it at all? A. No, sir. 
Q. What, not at all? A. Not at all. 
Q. What did }’ou testify about it for? You don’t know 
anything about it, except hearsay, do you? Come, answer ; time 
is precious. You are taking this right out of the governor. 
A. I didn’t see the body; I don’t know anything about it, 
because I never saw it. 
Q. You don’t know anything about it. A. I supposed I 
brought the body. 
Q. Now, that expression, you don’t know anything about it, 
covers that whole case, don’t it? Now, be frank; covers the 
whole case, don’t it? A. Well,— 
Q. Now, own up like a man. A. I supposed I knew what 
I was bringing, and I simply tell it for what I supposed; that 
is all. 
Q. Oh, but that is not an answer to my question. Just own 
up like a man, that that expression that you don’t know any- 
thing about it covers this entire case, — that is, of the second 
body, —don’t it? A. Since I didn’t see, I don’t know. 
Q. You don’t know anything about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. AYell, you don’t even know who dissected that body? 
A. No, sir. 
Air. Brown. Well, don’t you feel a little indignant that the 
governor should have played that joke on }rou? That is all. 
Re-direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Let me ask you, sir; you went up to Tewksbury after 
something? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that was a body? A I supposed it was. 
Q. When you got up there something was delivered to you? 
A. Yes. 
Q. From what house? A. The dead-house. 
Q. It was delivered to }Tou in a coffin? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you brought it back down to the Harvard Medical 
School? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And did yon tell Marsh what you wanted when }*ou got 
up there? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2889 
Q. And did he say* he hadn’t got any such thing, or did he 
deliver it according to order? A. He delivered it. 
Q. And you brought it down, and afterwards y*ou had the 
dissecting of the body, — you and your friends had the dissect- 
ing of the body* that y*ou supposed you had brought down ? 
A. The first time ; yes, sir. 
Q. What? A. The first one ; yes, sir. 
Q. The first one ; I am dealing with the first one ; precisely. 
And that was delivered in a c>ffin, and, therefore you didn’t see 
it. Now, about the second one. The second time, did you go 
up after a body* ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you found Mr. Marsh? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you told him what you wanted? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And he went to the dead-house with you, and you and he 
put a coffin into your wagon? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. That is so? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you brought that down and delivered it where you 
were told? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. To the city morgue ? A. Yes, 
Gov. Butler. And what was done with it after that you 
only* know from hearsay that it went to the Boston Dental Col- 
lege. I believe that is all, sir. 
lie-cross examination by Mr. Brown 
Q. Let us see, one moment; didn’t 3*011 testify that the first 
time }*ou saw the first body' it was at the Harvard Medical 
School? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. lie does now. 
Q. But you do mean to say you went to Tewksbury to get 
it? A Yes, sir. 
Q And y*ou mean to say*, also, that you went to Tewksbury 
the second time to get the second body? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You don’t know,—y*ou have testified, now, to all you 
know, personally, of any arrangement that was made, have you? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. What is that? A. No, sir. 
Q. That is, you have kept back a part of your personal 
knowledge of this transaction, have you? A. Well, if per- 
sonal knowledge is what has been told me, I have. 
Q. Don’t you know,—■twenty-four years old, and don’t you 
know the difference between personal knowledge and what a 2890 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
man tells 3*011? Are 3*0:1 engaged in the medical profession 
now? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you notified your patients of that fact? 
Gov. Butler. What i'act? 
Mr. Brown. That he don’t know the difference between per- 
sonal knowledge and what people tell him. 
Gov. Butler. I guess not. lie is in charge of insane 
patients, and he would not be likely to discuss it with them. 
Q. You know what personal knowledge means, don’t 3*011? 
Just say .you don’t, and 1 will be satisfied. If you do, I have 
got some other questions to ask you. A. Well, I think I do. 
Q. You think 3rou do? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you think you think 3*011 know? Let ns see if we 
can go one step further. A. That is too much for me, Mr. 
Brown. 
Q. That is the condition of 3*our mind, is it; you are a 
little in doubt. Give yourself the benefit of the doubt, now, 
and tell us what the fact is 
Gov. Butler. The fact is about what? 
Mr. Brown. Whether he knows what personal knowledge is. 
That is the first fact I want to know. [Witness paused.] All 
this time comes out of the governor. 
Gov. Butler. I am quite aware of that. 
A. I don’t see, — I think I do ; 3*es, sir. 
Q. You understand that. Now, I will ask you again, do 
you know an3’thing of your own personal knowledge about the 
deliveiy of either of these bodies that you have not stated? A. 
I have told 3*011 all. 
Q. Oh, no ; just answer me, 3*es or no. 
Gov. Butler. I appeal to the committee. 
The Witness. I don’t see how I can, Mr. Brown. 
Q. How you can what? A. I have told 3rou — 
Q. Don’t see how 3*011 can what? A. Answer 3*es or no. 
Q. Then go on and tell us the other answer 3*011 were going 
to make. A. I have told 3*011 all I know about the transaction, 
and all that T did. When 3*011 ask me if I have kept back 
any knowledge of the arrangement made — 
Q. I didn’t • ask 3*011 that. A. Then I misunderstood your 
question. 
Q. Then notice m3* question : Have you now told all that 
you know about the delivery of these two bodies ; that you know 
of 3*our own personal knowledge? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2891 
Q. Yea have? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You haven’t kept back anything? A. No, sir. 
Testimony of Caroline E. Hastings {recalled). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Are you employed at the homoeopathic college? I don’t 
know as that is the technical name of it? A. The Boston 
University School of Medicine. 
Q. How long has that been running? A. It was opened 
in 1873. 
Q. Then about ten years. How many bodies has your in- 
stitution received from Tewksbury? 
Mr. Brown. Now, I pray the judgment of this committee. 
Gov. Butler. There has a certain report been put in here, 
a report you have got and I have asked for. 
Mr. Brown. Yes; and it is a report that your friends said 
would not be allowed in evidence. And upon that, when I was 
asked yesterday whether it should be delivered to you. I ob- 
jected, because it was not in evidence. If jTou want to use it in 
evidence, and say so, then I will say something else ; but I 
don’t propose to have evidence introduced to contradict a report 
which is not in evidence, and which you have excluded upon your 
own motion, or caused to be excluded. 
The Chairman. The question is, whether she shall say 
whether bodies have been delivered from Tewksbury to this in- 
stitution. 
Gov. Butler. Yes; and how many. Why, the difficulty is 
— the gentleman is very quick. There has a report been put 
in, sir, of the gross number of bodies delivered. Now, if we 
can show — it is a report upon which you placed reliance, 
I have heard, Mr. Chairman, in discussing other questions. It 
shows the number delivered in the course of certain years. I 
am going to cover those very years, and if I can show what has 
been delivered to the Boston medical school, what has been de- 
livered to the dental school, what has been delivered to the 
Harvard school — and I can’t do it all with this witness — 
why, then, I suppose, if the numbers added together show a 
larger number than that report states, that report is simply a 
lie. Haven’t 1 a right to prove that? 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, here is a report. First, let us 
see where we are. Mr. Nourse testified that Thomas J. Marsh, 
Jr., made a report to his board in January, 1833. 2892 
charitable institutions. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. In January, 1883, it was placed on file. He 
took that report of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., and he carefully ex- 
amined that with the.original books, memorandum books, which 
Thomas ,T. Marsh, Jr., had in his possession. For that pur- 
pose the books were left in his possession, and they were there 
before the inspectors or trustees of this institution, and ex- 
amined by them. And he further testified that the report which 
had been made agreed with the books ; he checked them off both 
ways, and found them correct. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t agree to that statement. 
Mr. Brown. Well, the committee can refer to the record. I 
have examined it very carefully. Now, that report came down 
to January 25th, 1883. Now, His Excellency has sent for and 
excluded that report which shows how many went to the dental 
college, how many went to Harvard, and how many went to 
other places. 
Gov. Butler. Now, what report are you talking about? 
Mr. Brown. I am talking about the report made by Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr., to the board of inspectors, which this record 
says was placed on file on the 25th of January. 
Gov. Butler. I am not talking about that one at all. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I know you are not. 
Gov. Butler. That is not the one I wanted to contradict. 
The one J want to contradict at present is in that book. 
Mr. Brown. I know it is. 
Gov. Butler. That has been put in evidence. 
Ml*. Brown. This has been put in evidence. Now, the re- 
port of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., which the governor has caused 
to be excluded and yet which he wants to see, is in the hands of 
the chairman. And the number of bodies in that report, Mr. 
Nourse testified, agreed with the number of bodies contained in 
this report. That is, the report made by the trustees of that 
institution in a letter addressed to the board of health, lunacy 
and charity. Veiy well. Now, in the record of that same 
meeting it says — a copy of a report of the trustees of this in- 
stitution addressed to the board of health, lunacy and charity 
contains this memorandum, — it contains a statement in the 
first place — 
Gov. Butler. Remember all this comes out of my time, Mr. 
Brown. 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2893 
Gov. Butler. Read it right out; come. 
Mr. Brown — it contains — you will lose a good deal of your 
time if }Tou don’t let me alone. It contains this language : 
“ There are now on the board of trustees but two of those who 
made this arrangement. From the report of Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., 
we find that from October 19th, 1873, to October 1st, 1882, 585 bodies 
were delivered the medical colleges, of which 549 were of adults and 
36 of children. The whole amount paid, &c.” 
Gov. Butler. Will }tou let me have that a moment? 
Mr. Brown. Excuse me ; there were 585 down to the first 
day of October, 1882. Now, then, the same report goes on to 
sa}T — at least the record of this same board goes on to say: 
“ A supplementary report by T. J. Marsh, Jr., of material furnished 
the medical colleges for anatomical purposes was presented, and on 
motion the same was laid on the table.” 
Now, that is in the hands of the chairman of this committee, 
and to that you object, and you it shall not be put in evi- 
dence. Now, you propose to show that from this institution 
down to the present time, to these various medical schools, there 
have been more than 585 bodies delivered. Why, the very 
record itself shows there were more, and you won’t let me put 
in how many more ; and yet you purpose to contradict me. 
Now that is precisely what this is for, and you can see by the 
position of affairs precisely what is attempted to be done. We 
have got in a part of our case and he won’t let us get in the 
i’est. He says he won’t. And yet he wants to contradict the 
part we have in, when all the elements to make up the sum total 
are not stated in this communication on this record of the 
trustees. 
Gov. Butler. Let me see that, will you? 
Mr. Brown. Certainly. Now, I say that until that record 
is in evidence His Excellency cannot go further than this: to 
show that between those dates named in that report, from the 
first of October, 1873, to the first of October, 1882 — if lie 
wants to show that between those dates there were more than 
585 bodies delivered to the.different medical colleges, and that 
we are in error about it, that maybe open to him ; but to under- 
take to show anything else is clearly not in rebuttal in any 
way, shape or manner. 2894 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. There is a refreshing degree of coolness about 
this. 
Mr. Brown. There ought to be. It is a solemn subject. 
Gov. Butler. They have done this : they have put in the 
report of the trustees of the number of bodies delivered be- 
tween two dates. There then was a report of Thomas J. 
Marsh, Jr., to them, and that was offered in evidence at the 
time when lie was refusing to give us the original books from 
which that report was taken. 1 said under the circumstances 
their report should not go in. A man should not put evidence 
in his pocket and simply put in his own story. With the record 
of evidence in his own pocket, and refusing to produce it to the 
committee, lie stands here in contempt of the committee; and 
up to this time this committee has been in contempt by this 
man. I said that man cannot put in his own story as evidence, 
and the committee sustained me and ordered it to be put into 
the hands of the chairman, to be used in evidence if I think 
best. Now, 1 don’t propose, and it won’t be used in evidence 
at all, unless I come to the conclusion to use it in evidence. 
Now, I understand in that report—for I have seen it — there 
is not a word said about bodies ; not one. There are only cer- 
tain figures given which may stand for bodies and may stand 
for something else. But that is here and we won’t talk about 
that. I mean to contradict this, if I can, in two important par- 
ticulars, and to show that it is all wrong, by showing how many 
bodies were delivered. We have got the evidence of how many 
were said to be delivered at Harvard ; and it is only to call 
now — if we haven’t got it correct I propose to verify it by the 
treasurer of Harvard, if I have any time to do it; and then it 
is only to call the dental college and ascertain how many they 
got, legitimately, and then add two that we have shown to be 
smuggled, two more and as many more as we can show to be 
smuggled, perhaps to Dartmouth, and then we shall have the 
sum total of the bodies. Now, if I can’t do that, say so. 
The Chairman. What is this institution that this lady repre- 
sents? 
Gov. Butler. The Boston University of Medicine. And I 
want to say here, another method I have of verifying it. 
Mr. Brown. Will you allow me to ask the witness a ques- 
tion ? 
Gov. Butler. No ; don’t tamper with the witness. HOUSE —No. 300. 
1883.] 
2895 
Mr. Brown. If this is the same institution where Dr. Talbot 
is the dean. 
Gov. Butler. God may know; I don’t. 
Mr. Brown. If it is there is an additional reason why it 
should not go in. 
Gov. Butler. There is an additional reason why it should. 
But L am not upon that. This is the Boston University School 
of Medicine, and I want to say now that all along through the 
death-book in various places I have another test. Somebody 
has marked on the death-book UH,” “ B,” “ D ” against certain 
dead. 
Mr. Brown. What did you say ; Ph. D.? 
Gov. Butler. “ IT,” “ B,” “ D ” ; Harvard, Boston college 
and dental college, as I interpret it; and I think I can make 
that interpretation good. Charles Marsh, when I asked him 
about it, said that was put on by some of the physicians, or by 
the physician. I asked Dr. Lathrop and he said he had never 
made any such entry. 
Mr. Brown. There are three or four physicians up there. 
Gov. Butler. I understand. The assistant physician had 
certain special duties to perform. But I don’t want to tell 
about that now. I am trying to trace these dead bodies, if I 
can, and show that they have not told the truth about it. That 
is all I care to say. 
The Chairman. Is the committee ready to vote? 
Mr. Gilmore. I move that the question be admitted. 
The Chairman. Those in favor raise their hands : six, I be- 
lieve ; those opposed by the same sign, three ; the chair votes 
in the negative. 
Q. Now, Doctor, will you tell us how many bodies were de- 
livered to your institution? 
Mr. Brown. You mean up to the present time? 
Gov. Butler. Up to the present time. 
The Witness. In the ten years? 
Gov. Butler. Within ten years. 
The Witness. One hundred and forty-eight. 
Q. How many have been delivered within the last three 
months; the last three months,—from Tewksbury I mean now, 
all the time. 
Mr. Brown. Well, she don’t probably know whether they 
came from Tewksbury or some other place. 
Gov. Butler. I will put the question. 2896 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. How many have been delivered from Tewksbury? A. 
I could not tell you that without referring to the papers. 
Q. Yes; you can tell within the last three months. How 
many in the last three months? 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Can you tell how many came from 
Tewksbury at any time? Are the 148 those that came from 
Tewksbury? A. I supposed I was testifying in regard to 
Tewksbury when I gave those figures ; 148 is the number we 
have had from Tewksbury. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Whom did you pa}- for them? A. 
I didn’t pay for them. 
Q. No ; but whom did your institution pay for them ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. Do 
you know anything about it? 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do you know — of course you 
didn’t personally pay for them out of your own pocket. Whom 
did your institution pay for them, if you know? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. This 
witness does not appear to have the disbursement of money. 
It is not put in evidence as far as she has gone. 
The Chairman. If she knows who paid for them let her say 
so. 
Mr. Brown. She has not been asked. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Do you know by whom they were 
paid for? A. Do you mean who received the money? 
Q. Yes. A. I do not. 
Q. Ever see any bills come for them? A. Not lately; I 
have in earlier years. 
Q. To whose name did those bills come ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. If 
there are any bills, I think we are entitled to see them. It is a 
written document, the contents of which cannot be proved by 
parole. 
Gov. Butler. It only takes time. 
Mr. Brown. There is no reason why we should throw down 
all the bars of evidence to save time. 
Gov. Butler. Why, the same thing was allowed in the case 
of Dr. Porter. 
Mr. Brown. On cross-examination. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; on your examination. He w-asn’t 
asked whether he had paid for them, but he produced what he 
found on the treasurer’s books. 1883.J 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2897 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, do you know what your 
treasurer or dean, or whatever he is, paid for them — what the 
books show? 
Mr. Brown. I object. 
Gov. Butler. I ask her if she knows. 
Mr. Brown. Suppose she does know. I object to the ques- 
tion. 
Gov. Butler. There is no reason why all the books and 
papers of that institution should be brought here. 
Mr. Brown. We ought to have them, and notask a person 
who says she has nothing to do with thy keeping of them. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I thought you were the secretary 
of the institution. A. Yes, sir; I am. 
Mr. Brown. The books in regard to funds are in the hands 
of the treasurer, I suppose. 
The Chairman. Is she the treasurer ? 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I don’t know whether your institu- 
tion has a treasurer. A. We have something that answers for 
one. 
Q. That is not the name of the officer, is it? The name of 
the officer, I suppose, is the dean, is it not? A. The chief 
officer. 
Q. Well, isn’t he the disbursing officer? A. I don’t know, 
really. I suppose he is. If }tou ask me for the fact. I cannot 
say. 
Q. Do your bills pass through a board for approval? A. 
We have a board known as the executive committee. 
Q. Are you a member of that? A. No, sir. 
Q. Very well. Do you know what was paid for them? I 
mean now for each one ; what price ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. I ask if she knows. 
Mr. Brown. She may know by hearsay, but not from per- 
sonal knowledge. 
Gov. Butler. Ah, pardon me. This lady knows what is 
meant by personal knowledge. She has not been in the service 
of the State, and she knows something. 
The Chairman. That don’t apply to the legislature and ex- 
ecutive ? 
Gov. Butler. They are not in the service of the State ; they 
ought to be in the service of their constituents. 
The Chairman. I agree to that, 2898 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, then, do you know wliat was paid for bodies ? What 
bargain was made, or what agreement was made, to lie paid — 
how much money? A. I only know what was paid by having 
seen. I know the number of bodies delivered and the amount 
paid. That is the only way I know. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) That is, having seen it on paper? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. On the books? A. Yres, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, well; I will send for the books. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) When did you see it last? A. 
Sometime last week ; I could not give the date. Soon after I 
had the interview with the gentleman whom you sent up to see 
me. 
Gov. Butler. I won’t pursue this any further if the com- 
mittee think I ought to send for the books. It is only to save 
time and trouble of producing the books that I offer it in this 
way. 
The Chairman. Of course it would be more satisfactory to 
have the books. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What is the name of the dean? 
A. Dr. I. T. Talbot. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Innis, will you have the kindness to 
summon Dr. Isaac T. Talbot with a subptena duces tecum. 
The Witness. It is I. Tisdale Talbot. 
Gov. Butler. I. Tisdale Talbot, with all the books of the 
Boston University of Medicine that have any relation, directly 
or indirectly, with the receipt of or payment of money for dead 
bodies during the existence of the institution. [To the witness.] 
And if you will attend here then, I will examine you further; at 
two o’clock. 
The Chairman. Have you got a witness you can put on for 
ten minutes? 
Gov. Butler. I have got a short one, I think; Mr. Hall. 
Testimony of Robert IIall (sivorn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
The Witness. Well, I arrived at Tewksbury — 
Gov. Butler. Stop a moment. I will ask you a question, 
and you can tell the story. 
Mr. Brown. Got the machine all wound up, I suppose. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; he comes here to tell the truth, I sup- 
pose, without being insulted before he begins. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2899 
The Witness. I suffered in Tewksbury; I don’t want to 
here. 1 
Gov. Butler. The counsel for Tewksbury is here, and you 
are in danger. 
Q. When did you go to Tewksbury, sir? 
Mr. Brown. Can’t we have his name, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Robert Hall, sir. 
Q. Where do yon live? A. I live in Brockton, Massachu- 
setts. 
Q. When did you go to Tewksbury? A. I went on the 
18th of February, 1883. 
Gov. Butler. Keep your voice up. 
The Witness. The 18th of February, 1883. 
Q. When did you leave there? A. On the 12th day of 
March. 
Q. What is the matter with you ? A. T was troubled with 
rheumatism when I went there, and I am now. 
Q. Did 3'ou leave of your own accord? A. I did, sir; I 
was glad to. 
Q. Did you inform the physician, Dr. Otterson, what your 
troubles were? A. I did; yres, sir. 
Q. What answer did you get? 
Mr. Brown. Now, I pray the judgment of this committee, 
whether we are going into a new case of mismanagement? 
The Chairman. I guess you had better let the governor go 
forward and show the competency of it. 
Gov. Butler. How? 
The Chairman. I think you had better show how it is com- 
petent. 
Gov. Butler. I am going to show it in this way, sir. We 
have had every person there saying that there has been no 
cruelty to anybody, and that the institution has been well and 
kindly managed towards everybody who goes in there. I pro- 
pose to contradict that, if I can. I propose to contradict that 
testimony by showing cases of cruelty, within so short a time that 
they could not be forgotten. Every* nurse that has been brought 
here, every young woman, young girl that is called a. matron, 
who has been brought here, Charles Marsh and Thomas J. 
Marsh, senior, have sworn, covering the whole period, that 
there was no case of cruelty. There have been one or two 
which, on cross-examination, came out from Dr. Lathrop. Now, 
I propose to show that there were cases of cruelty right under 2900 
CIIARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
their noses, open, violent, which they ought to have known, and 
did know, except they denied them with the oath of God upon 
them. If I can’t do that, I can’t do anything. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I challenge His Excellency or 
any member of the committee to point to any sentence where 
any witness called for the defence has said that there was no 
case of cruelty. They have denied specific charges of cruelty, 
and explained specific charges of cruelty. For instance, the 
Barron woman, testified to by Dudley; we explained that, 
and we showed that the same course of treatment continued 
after Dudley look charge of the Barron woman that had existed 
before. 
Gov. Butler. I am not after the Barron woman ; that is not 
this case. 
Mr. Brown. I know ; that is a very barren subject to you, 
no doubt. 
Gov. Butler. I am quite contented with it. 
Mr. Brown. Now, if llis Excellency can produce a witness 
who can say that any witness produced by the defence testified 
to that which was untrue, when the)' said they never heard of an 
instance of cruelty, and can show that the witness who testified 
had heard of them, that is rebuttal. Why, I might have gone on 
for four weeks longer than I did, and have called more nurses, 
more attendants, more inmates — 
Gov. Butler. No inmates except Joe. 
Mr. Brown. What is that? 
Gov. Butler. No inmates that I remember now except Joe. 
Mr. Brown. And to show that nothing of the kind took 
place 1 didn’t believe, after members of the legislature and 
after members of the committee had visited this institution, that 
it was at all necessary for me to call witnesses in regard to 
general management; therefore I left them out, and I confined 
myself exclusively to answering the specific charges which His 
Excellency had made. Now a man comes in here, and .lie does 
not say that Charles Marsh, or Mr. Thomas J. Marsh, senior — 
Gov. Butler. He has not said anything. 
Mr. Brown. Why, he didn’t pretend that he was going to 
say anything — that Thomas J. Marsh, senior, has told that 
which was untrue and that he did know of a case of cruelty. 
He don’t pretend t hat . He is going off on his own statement, 
and undertakes to say that there were other cases of cruelty, not 
hitherto named by other witnesses for the governor or any wit- 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2901 
ness for the defence. It is entirety and absolutely new matter ; 
clearly new matter. And, if the committee vote to let it in, it is 
just as clean and clear an opening of the case as we had at the 
opening on the 30th of March, when we came together in the 
room down stairs, in room No. 10,—just as clean and clear. 
And I want to say to the committee that if you want to consider 
it anew, and if the governor won’t tell the legislature that they 
ought to have gone away last April if they had attended to 
business, and if he will say that he would like to have them stay, 
I will use my influence, and we will sta\' and go through with 
this until next September or next January. 
Gov. Butler. I won’t agree to stay any longer than January. 
The Chairman. Perhaps there won’t any of us ; we can’t tell 
about that. 
Mr. Brown. Now I sa}’, for these reasons, that this matter 
ought not to be gone into. 
The Chairman. The committee must decide. 
Mr. Brown. I would like to ask if I have the close. I am 
the objecting party. 
Gov. Butler. No. He asked me to open. That won’t do. 
Now, Mr. Chairman — 
Mr. Brown. You are taking }rour own time. 
Gov. Butler. I am. And I have a right to waste it and 
you haven’t. 
Mr. Brown. I am glad to hear you say it is wasted. 
Gov. Butler. They produce certain people and explain cer- 
tain charges, certain specific acts of cruelty, and they have asked 
them, over and over again, was there any cruel treatment to 
anybody ; and when the}' have neglected to ask them I have. 
And every one of the creatures they brought here swore there 
never was an act of cruelty. 
Mr. Brown. That they ever heard of. 
Gov. Butler. Every one of them. 
Mr. Brown. Won’t you find that in the record, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. You will find it in every case ; especially in 
the testimony of Thomas J. Marsh, senior. Now, then, if he was 
there — take it either way. 
Mr. Brown. lie is the man you endorsed as honest. 
Gov. Butler. In comparison with his sons; yes. I was 
making that comparison at the time, and said he was a compara- 
tively honest man compared to his sons. Now, let us take him. 
He was superintendent of this institution. If he knew about it, 2902 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
knew of these acts of cruelty, and swore he didn’t hear of them, 
then we show that he lies. 
Mr. Brown. By showing that he did hear of them. 
Gov. Butler. You must let me alone, now. AVe show that 
he lies if he did hear of them. If he didn’t hear of them, then it 
was his duty to have heard, as the superintendent; and he was 
negligent and ought not to have been trusted with this institu- 
tion. For if men and women could be kicked, as I am about 
to prove, abused, pounded and knocked down, down almost to 
the when this investigation commenced, it could not have 
been done without dereliction of duty by those officers in charge. 
And dereliction of duty is what I have attempted to prove, 
which they have denied ; and 1 am going to show that the denial 
was false. 1 don’t think the}' knocked them down and dragged 
them out when you were there. That is not the time it is done. 
And he says he depended upon what you saw. If you are going 
to take as evidence what you saw, and found any report upon it, 
1 respectfully submit that I ought to have been invited to go 
with you when the evidence was being put in. 
The Chairman. Your invitation is a standing one, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Chairman. You have a standing invitation. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me; not to go with the legislature. 
1 have no right to crowd myself into their company. 
Mr. Brown. And a duty also. 
Gov. Butler. I have no duty to go with the legislature 
there. Neither one nor the other. 1 should simply be imper- 
tinent if I went with them unless asked. And it has been usual 
that legislatures ask governors to go with them on such trips, 
like the Hoosac Tunnel, Tewksbury and other places. 
The Chairman. You should address your remarks to the 
House members, Governor, because the Senate didn’t go up. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; either branch has usually invited 
the governor and council. But this legislature is governed by 
its own rules. That is not harsh, is it, sir? 
The Chairman. No. 
Gov. Butler. Very well, I have not done any harm in say- 
ing that this legislature is governed by its own rules in its own 
way. Now, then, shall I be allowed to put in those acts of 
cruelty, to show that these very persons, nurses and all, did know 
of them, and it was their duty to report them and they have not 
done so ; indeed, they have sworn there was no such thing. Now, 1883.1 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2903 
one word upon the matter dropped in by Brother Brown, that I 
say the legislature ought to have gone home last April. I didn’t 
introduce that, but I stand by that. And they should have left 
us here to have fixed this thing up quietly, comfortably, and 
without any hurry as to time. 
The Chairman. We can’t reply, Governor; I wouldn’t go 
into that at much length. 
Gov. Butler. Why shouldn’t I? I am replying to what he 
said. 
The Chairman. You may reply to him. 
Gov. Butler. 1 am replying to him. I say, therefore, it is 
not anything to be brought against me, Mr. Chairman, although 
I had said it. 1 have not said so. I have said the actual busi- 
ness of the legislature could have been finished ; and it could have 
been, in my judgment. If circumstances have altered that, that 
is an affair we will fix between now and next January, somehow, 
with the men that we will-have to settle these things with. But it 
is no argument why I should not be allowed to put this evidence 
in, and I pray you not to take it into consideration, especially 
if I yield to the suggestion of the chairman and don’t pursue it 
any further. 
The Chairman. The question is whether this shall be ad- 
mitted. 
[The question was rejected, four to five.] 
The Chairman. Now it is time to adjourn until two o’clock ; 
I hope the counsel will remain and we will have a brief con- 
ference. 
Adjourned. 2904 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS, 
[Api. 
SIXTY-FIRST HEARING. 
Wednesday, July 11. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 2 p. m., Senator 
Torino of Worcester in the chair. 
The Chairman. Call witness, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Hon. Godfrey Morse. Mr. Morse, I will call 
you ; 3rou want to get back to court. 
Testimony of Godfrey Morse {sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Mr. Morse, how long have you lived in Boston? A. 
Twenty-eight years. 
Q. How many years have you been a member of the school 
board ? A. Three 3*ears. 
Q- And how long a member of the common council? A. 
This is my second 3’ear. 
Q. Do you know Dr. Dixwell? A. I do. 
Q. How long have you known him? A. Seventeen years. 
Q. How well have 3'ou known him? A. He was a class- 
mate of mine in college. 
Q. Known him ever since? A. I have known him ever 
since. 
Q. Has he had an office or place of business near you? A. 
Mine was on State Street or Water Street, and his was on Pem- 
berton Square and on Beacon Street. He graduated from the 
medical school. 
Q. Have you known those who know him quite well? A. 
All my classmates have known him —college classmates. 
Q, Prior to this investigation did 3rou ever hear his character 
for truth and veracity questioned? A. No, sir. 
Q. Prior to this investigation did you ever hear, or know, 
or believe that he was a lunatic? A. I never believed it, sir. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2905 
Q. Did you ever hear of it? A. I never heard of it before. 
Gov. Butler. The witness is yours, Mr. Brown. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Did 3*011 ever consult his family physician or talk with 
him about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever consult with any of his relatives about it? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Or talk with them about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. If an expert upon insanity, who was familiar with his 
history and the history'of his health, should say that he was of 
unsound mind, would that affect your judgment at all? A. I 
hardly think it would. 
Q. Were you his counsel ? A. I have been. 
Q. When last? A. A little over two years ago. 
Q. And rendered professional services for him, have 3*011 ? 
A. I have advised him in matters ; yes, sir. 
Q. Under a retainer? A. No, sir ; as his friend and class- 
mate. I have had nothing to do with him professionally for 
over two 3*ears. 
Q. Still 3'ou consider you are under a sort of professional 
obligation to him? A. No, sir ; I do not. I rendered my ser- 
vices without pay, and I don’t consider myself retained, although 
I was consulted professionally. 
Q. Well, 3*011 say 3*011 are a member of the school board? 
A. I was. 
Q. If Dr. Dixwell should say that the lad3’ teachers of Bos- 
ton had to submit themselves to the members of the school 
board before the3’ could be emplo3’ed, would you consider that 
evidence of an unsound mind? 
Gov. Butler. I object to that question. 
The Chairman. That is as competent as the other one he 
put, isn’t it? 
Gov, Butler. IIow. 
The Chairman. Isn’t that as competent as the other — if an 
expert on lunacy should sa3* he was craz3* ? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know but these are as competent as 
some others that have been put here, but this is not competent. 
If something else should happen what would happen? 
The Chairman. Can’t he put a theoretical case on cross- 
examination ? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; but not upon this question. There 2906 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
are cases where }tou can put theoretical questions to experts and 
others ; but there are no experts, as T know of, on questions of 
whether a man has reputation for truth and veracity. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t ask that. 
Gov. Butler. It is not what the man that testifies believes 
himself, except on condit’on that he knows what a man’s reputa- 
tion is. For instance, I might have a very strong opinion 
about the chairman, but whatever my opinion was, if I had 
never heard anybody sa}* that he had ever done anything wrong, 
I should not be allowed to give my opinion. 
The Chairman. Do you press it, Mr. Brown? 
Mr. Brown. Yes, sir; I submit it is nothing but a hypothet- 
ical question, such as is put always to witnesses on cross-exam- 
ination. This man is called here to testify that he never saw 
anything about Dr. Dixwell to indicate that he was of unsound 
mind; never heard of anything. Now I put this hypothetical 
question: if Dr. Dixwell should say certain things—which I 
won’t repeat — would you consider that — he has been a mem- 
ber of the school board and is familiar, somewhat, with their 
transactions — would 3rou consider that evidence of an unsound 
mind? That is what I ask. 
Gov. Butler. There are two or three troubles about that. 
In the first place }Tou assume it is true he did say it. 
Mr. Brown. I put it purely as a hypothetical question, and 
nothing else. 
Gov. Butler. Excuse me; I know. Mr. Morse might be 
more willing to believe that the man lied that said he said so 
than to believe that he was untruthful. 
Mr. Broavn. Therefore I put it hypothetically — if he said 
so. 
Gov. Butler. And therefore it elucidates nothing, and it 
don’t belong to the class of questions that ever are put in this 
kind of cases ; never has been put, and I venture to say that 
the chairman neA'er heard anything like that. 
Mr. Brown. He heard it yesterday, when His Excellency 
asked a witness if he heard that Dixwell killed his grandmother. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon ; I only follow the cross-exami- 
nation— if he eArer heard him accused. It was not a legal per- 
formance. Did 3'ou ever hear him accused of this, that, or the 
other? I simpfy followed. Those questions were all illegal 
and all improper, and I let them run, just to shoiv the animus of 
the counsel to use up 1113* time. I wanted him to make an ex- 1883.] 
HOLTS K — No. 800. 
2907 
hibition of himself. And he made it full}"; and I got his photo- 
graph in that regard ; therefore, I didn’t object. 
The Chairman. Better put it on sale and see if we can’t 
make something out of it. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t hear what you sa}T, sir. 
The Chairman. I say you had better put the photograph on 
sale, so that the committee can make something out of it. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I don’t make so poor a specula- 
tion as that generally ; nobody would want it. Now, then, I 
am upon the question here of an investigation; whether }'ou can 
put those questions. Suppose he said that the moon was made 
of green cheese, what would you think of him then ? Suppose 
he had said that the world stood still, what would you believe 
then ? They never were put and they never will be put an}'- 
where else but here, and I don’t think they will be here. How- 
ever, I will have a vote of the committee upon it. 
The Chairman. My impression is rather against it, but I am 
disposed to let the committee vote upon it. 
[A vote was taken and the question was excluded ; one for, 
and two against.] 
Q. Did you ever read the article in the ‘k Boston Post ” of 
July 2, 1881, entitled “ Dixwell Exposed?” A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then you have heard something about his character? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no; pardon me ; I object to the question. 
There is nothing said about his character for truth and veracity ; 
there is something said about his quarrels. 
Mr. Brown. I submit there was something, and if you want 
me to read the article I will read it, and you can see whether 
there is or not. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; you won’t read the article ; you can’t 
get it in that way. 
Mr. Brown. If you object to it on the ground that it is not 
there, I think His Excellency ought to read it and see that it is 
not there. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I object that there is no evidence 
that it is in there. 
Mr. Brown. Well, you say it is not; I don’t know whether 
you are playing with us. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I say there is no evidence. The ques- 
tion is : then you have heard something about him. 
Mr. Brown. That is not the question. I said you have 
heard something about his character. 2908 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Well, you did read the article? A. 
I did. 
Q. Still you don’t regard that the reading of that article 
affected his character for truth and veracit}T? A. Not the 
slightest, in my opinion. 
Q. Because you don’t believe that the “ Boston Post” is a 
reliable sheet? A. I don’t believe that that article is truthful. 
The “ Boston Post ” simply published it. 
Q. Isn’t there an affidavit there, signed and sworn to? A. 
I have not seen it for two years ; so I don’t remember whether 
there was or not. 
Q. Do you know anything about the facts contained in that 
article? A. Not until I had read it. 
Q. And then you say you investigated it, did you ? A. I 
didn’t say so, but I did investigate it; I say it now. 
Q. You say it now. Were you his counsel when he was 
expelled from the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to 
Children? A. I didn’t know he was expelled, and I was not 
his counsel in that matter. 
Q. Was not his counsel? A. In that matter. 
Q. Had nothing to do with it? A. Nothing whatsoever, 
that I remember. 
Q. How frequentty have you seen him for the last two years ? 
A. Not very often ; off and on ; sometimes on the street. I 
think I have called at his house once or twice within two years ; 
I am not positive of but once. I don’t think I have seen him 
more than half a dozen times in these two years. 
Q. In Pemberton Square? A. In Pemberton Square. 
Mr. Brown. I believe that is all. 
Re-direct examination by Gov. Butler, 
Q. You know of that institution. That was the Boston 
Provident Institution, was it not? A. I realty could not tell 
3rou, sir. I know it was some institution that had something to 
do with poor children. 
Q. Mr. Frothingham was at the head of it, wasn’t he? A. 
I could not answer the question. 
Gov. Butler. All right, sir. I have got Mr. Frothingham*s 
letter here about that, which will show whether he was expelled 
or not. That is all, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2909 
Testimony of Eugene A. Pope (sworn). 
Direct examination by Qov. Butler. 
Q. How long have }Tou lived in Boston? A. I was born in 
Boston,, and I have lived in or near Boston all my life. 
Q. How long have you known Dr. Dixwell? A. Ten years ; 
prett}' close to ten years. 
Q. Known him well? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Known those other people who have known him? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Up to the time of this investigation had you ever heard 
anything against his character for truth and veracity ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Up to the time of this investigation did you ever hear or 
ever see anything in his conduct or ever hear any suspicion that 
he was a lunatic in any way? A. Not the slightest. 
Q. Had dealings with him? A. I had seen him. He was 
first a tenant of a building I had in charge ; that was my first 
acquaintance with him ; and I have seen him, I should say, on 
the average for the last ten years, two or three times a year. 
Perhaps a year I have lived out of town I may have skipped 
and not seen him so often. 
Gov. Butler. The witness is 3’ours, Mr. Brown. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. What have you seen about him ? You say that you never 
noticed anything that he was a lunatic; what have j’ou seen 
about him that was singular? A. Nothing. 
Q. His conduct and appearance have alwa} s been that of a 
perfectly sound mind, —■ of a man that has a perfectly sound and 
well-balanced mind,— everything that you have seen ? A. Like 
all other men. He had his peculiarities. 
Q. He does have peculiarities? A. Certainly. 
Q. What are his peculiarities? A. When he starts for a 
thing he goes right straight through it from beginning 
to end and does not take anything on trust. 
Q. Well, that is a peculiarity, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, mention the next that you have seen. A. I don’t 
know that there is anything more to distinguish him from the 
average run. 
Q. You stated he had peculiarities, and you have only stated 
one; now, what are the rest? let us have them. A. I don’t 2910 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
know as I recall anything to testify to. Yon make up your 
opinion of a man from a great many tilings you don’t remem- 
ber. 
Q. Won’t you state ; you mentioned something more than 
energy, didn’t you? A. That is all that I referred to. 
Q. Then he hasn’t any other peculiarity except that he is 
energetic. Is that all? A. Not that I know of. 
Q. Earned his own living, didn’t he? A. That I don’t 
know. 
Q. Don’t know anything about it. A. I didn’t have an}'- 
thing to do with his living. I never heard that he didn’t pay 
his bills, so I presume he earned his living. 
Q. When did he hire a building in which you had an interest? 
A. In 1872, I think it was, or 1873, to 187G. 
Q. Where was that? A. No. 8 and No. 10 Beacon 
Street. 
Q. Did you collect the rent? A. I think the rent was 
paid at the office. 
Q. Do 3tou know whether he paid it, or somebody else? A. 
My impression is that he always paid it. 
Q. You never heard anything peculiar about the man, ex- 
cept as you have stated? A. No. 
Q. Never consulted with his friends, his father or mother, 
brothers or sisters, or brothers-in-law? A. No, sir. 
Q. Didn’t you have any knowledge of the Hebrew affair, 
which has taken place since the first of January, —getting cer- 
tain people up to the Tewksbury almshouse in large numbers, — 
which was investigated by the board of health, lunacy and 
charity? Didn’t you have some knowledge about that? A. 
Only from hearsay ; that is all. 
Q. Have you considered that a matter which didn’t affect his 
reputation? A. I understood that he did that as agent of the 
Boston Provident Society ; that the}’ applied there for aid, and 
he was one of their visitors, and he had to visit them and find 
out about them. 
Q. That is the way you understood that? A. That is the 
way I understood that. 
Q. And that is all you heard about it, is it? A. I have 
heard a great deal of talk. 
Q. Well, that is the principal part of what you have heard 
of that affair, is it? A. I heard talk back and forth all the 
time ; but as far as why he did so, that was the reason I heard. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2911 
I understand that he was employed by the Boston Provident 
Society ; a regular servant. These people applied, and they sent 
him to look after them. 
Re-direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q You are asked if jTou inquired of his brothers-in-law and 
his sisters-in-law. As a friend of the family, and of him, did 
you see an}' occasion to make any such inquiries? A. The 
only' time, —-lie was ill at his house one winter, and I inquired 
about his health from time to time. That was only during tha® 
sickness. 
Q. I understand. That was as any other gentleman would 
do. What I mean to say is, did you ever have any occasion to 
inquire about his being sane or insane, any more than any other 
gentleman? A. Not the slightest. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) Has the witness given us his 
business? What is your business? A. My business is book- 
keeper ; in real estate business. 
Testimony of Edward Frothingham (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Mr. Frothinghain, were you ever at the head of the Bos- 
ton Provident Assoeiation? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Sometimes called the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty 
to Children? A. Nothing to do with it. 
Q. Then this is another society ? A. This is on Chardon 
Street. 
The Chairman. You will have to raise your voice, Gov- 
ernor. 
Q. This was the society in which he was connected with 
you, was it? A. What are you speaking of now, sir? 
Q. The Boston Provident Association. A. He was one of 
my visitors ; he was a visitor among the poor. 
Q. How long? A. A year or two. 
Q. [Producing a letter.] Was that the letter which you 
gave him when he left, or after he left? A. Yes, sir. I 
don’t know whether it was the last one or not. It was after he 
left. 
Q. At that time, when he was with you, did you hear any — 
know any — did you hear his character for truth and veracity CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
2912 
called in question at that time? A. Not at that time ; no. I 
remember I had before. I didn’t mind it, though. 
Q. Well, you gave him this letter when he left, did you? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you had a little trouble with him, a little misunder- 
standing, didn’t you, or he with you? A. No misunderstand- 
ing at all; we had a difference. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] 
Boston Provident Association, 
Office of the 
Bureau of Charity, Ckardon Street, 
Boston, Feb. 17, 1883. 
My Dea.r Dixwell,— 
It is a matter of deep regret to me that you and I should have felt 
obliged to part company. 
You have been the most thorough visitor I have ever had, and I 
know not when or where I can ever expect to look for another like 
you. 
For some reason which I do not quite understand you decline to 
receive what is your due. You are richly entitled to it. The associ- 
ation owes it to you, and if you can persuade yourself to take it, 
whatever your reasons for refusing, 1 shall be exceedingly obliged 
to you. Give it to your wife, — give it to the poor Russians, if you 
will; but pray take it. 
I bear you no ill-will. Why should I? It was but a difference of 
opinion after all that separated us. Why should you bear me any 
ill-will ? and yet your refusal to accept your salary indicates that 
such must be the case. And this is the reason why your refusal is a 
sorrow to me. 
If these reasons are not sufficient to change your resolution, pray 
consider that it is not l who offer you the money. You have not 
been working for me, but you have been working for the association, 
and it is the association which would and should pay you for your 
services. 
Believe me always your friend, 
John Dixwell, M. D. 
Edward Fkotuingham. 
Q. Then his leaving jour institution was voluntary, I sup - 
pose, on his part? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Entirely. Because you asked him to come back. And 
anybody that says that he was expelled from your institution 
lies, don’t he, as far as you know ? A. Do you want me to 
answer that question ? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2913 
Q. Certainly. A. I didn’t expel him. No; he was not 
expelled. 
Gov. Butler. He left because he chose to, and refused for 
some reason to take his salary. The witness is yours, Mr. 
Brown. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Now, let us see, Mr. Frothingham; there is a society 
called the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, 
and within your knowledge Dr. Dixwoll was connected with it 
atone time? A. I don’t know anything about it; I believe 
he was connected with it before he came to me. 
Q. Now, when was it? You say before \rou employed him 
you had heard reports respecting his reputation for truth and 
veracity? A. I heard that. I can’t tell you when; it was 
ever so long ago, and I should not say positively where I heard 
it, but I have heard it; when, I don’t know. 
Q. IIow many times have you heard it? 
Gov. Butler. Not once. 
The Witness. Oh, a very few people, and I cannot say I 
ever heard it more than once or twice. 
Q. This was some time ago? A. Yes, sir; a good while 
ago. 
Q. It is since 1872 or thereabouts when he left the medical 
school ; since 1872 or 1873? A. Oh, yes. 
Q. Now, let us see. You employed him to visit the poor. 
That is, to go around and sec their condition, and then he had to 
report, I suppose, concerning the people he visited. lie did 
that work, as you say, thoroughly, did he? A. Very thoroughly, 
indeed, so far as I could see. 
Q. He didn’t have the disbursement of any money ? A.. 
No ; but he gave material help in other things — coal and food, 
at his discretion. 
Q. And when did he leave the employment of the society ? 
A. When did he begin to be employed ? 
Q. No; when did he leave ? A. About the date of the 
letter ; I cannot answer it exactly. 
Q. Sometime before February 17, 1883? A. About the 
15th of February, I believe ; whenever the month had expired. 
Q. When did he enter the employ of the society? A. He 
was visitor for me about a } ear and a half. 
Q. Now, what was this difference that you had? A. He 
didn’t obey orders ; he was queer. 2914 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. He was what? Queer? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Wherein was he queer? A. Well, Dr. Dixwell was a 
man who if he got interested in a case of poor was carried away 
by it; he seemed to lose his sagacity in a measure. 
Q. Seemed to lose his balance, did he? A. Well, I lost 
my faith in what lie could do for the poor people in whom he 
was interested. I had no reliance on him. I lost my faith in 
him. 
Q. IIow frequently did he lose his judgment? A. A good 
many times. 
Q. Very often? A. Yes, sir; very often. Well, in.the 
first part, 1 will say that all this trouble arose in the month or 
two months before he left. 
Q. AVell, after he lost his judgment there was not that use 
for him so far as your society was concerned? A. He plagued 
me a good deal. 
Q. Well, did your society have anything to do with some 
Russian Jews that Dixwell was connected with in some way 
since the first of January? A. It did. 
Q. Tell us the story about the Russian Jews? A. The 
paper will come out to-morrow that will tell y7ou about that. 
Q. Give us a summary7? A. Well, the Russian Jews were 
a lot of people calling themselves exiles. They came to Boston, 
and they came down upon us as an association, as they did upon 
other people, for help. They are out of sympathy with a great 
many people ; they were out of sympathy to such an extent that 
Dr. Dixwell was quite carried away by his sympathy. No fault 
to find with him in that, except that he overstepped the bounds 
which I had set for him as a visitor. 
Q. Now, what did he do? A. Well, he was careless and 
treacherous to the last degree. He would believe all that these 
people told him. I told him he was being deceived, and in spite 
of that he would go on and help them all the time. 
Q. He was deceived. Never mind how, but he allowed him- 
self to be deceived as you thought he ought not to be? A. I 
told him so, but he would not take any heed of what I said. I 
could not control him at all. 
Q. Didn’t you have a little suspicion about the soundness of 
his mind? A. Yes, sir; I did, decidedly; and I have got it 
now. 
Q. And you talked with friends, didn’t you? A. Very few 
people ; nobody to talk with. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2915 
Q. But you did talk with some about Dixwell, as to the 
soundness of his mind ? A. Very likely. 
Q. And you learned from others that there was a suspicion 
about his soundness of mind? A. Well, the}- agreed with me 
in a measure ; 1 don’t mean to say that they did wholly. 
Q. Whom did you talk with? A. Well, 1 talked with peo- 
ple wrho had to do with him in the same way I had, with these 
Russians. 
Q. Give us the names? A. Mr. Hecht, president of the 
Hebrew benevolent society, always spoke kindly about the doc- 
tor, but said he thought he was wanting there. [Indicating his 
forehead.] 
Q. Wanting here? Rutting his finger on his forehead? A. 
I suppose that is what he meant. 
Q. When he said he was wanting here he put his finger on 
his forehead? A. I think he did ; 1 cannot swear to it. 
Q. What other person did you consult? A. I cannot re- 
call ; I rarely spoke to anybody about Dr. Dixwell, who was 
not concerned about these Russians. Mr. Ilecht and 1 were 
always a good deal together about these Russian Jews. 
Q. Did the Russian Jews go to Tewksbury ? A. A good 
many of them did. 
Q. Were you brought in contact with the board of health, 
lunacy and charity on the subject of the treatment of the Rus- 
sian Jews? A. Not directly at all; hardly intimate. 
Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Dixwell about 
any action of the board of health, lunacy and charity in re- 
gard to the Russian Jews? A. Yes ; we did. 
Q. What did he say? A. What did who say? 
Q. Dixwell. A. Well, he thought the society* that you 
speak of made a mistake in bringing these people back from 
Tewksbury, after he, Dixwell, thought he had got them there. I 
didn’t agree with him myself. 
Q. When did you first notice so as to come to any other 
different judgment upon that subject? When did you first notice 
that Dixwell had something the matter with his head? A. It 
was the manner in which he spoke about these Jevrs. I thought 
a person with his intelligence and his education could not really* 
believe what he said he believed to be true without being in 
some way, as I say, a little queer. Nobody agreed with him 
that I can find. 
Gov. Butlek He didn’t care for that. 2916 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. What did he say to raise your suspicion as to the sound- 
ness of his mind? A. It was not what he said ; it was what 
he did. 
Q. What did he do? A. lie would always be going to 
these Russians, or sending these people whom he called inter- 
preters. lie could not speak Russian any better than I could, 
but he would send interpreters, and through these interpreters 
would help these people without my' knowledge, and afterwards 
against my consent. I told him that these interpreters, I 
believed, were not reliable people, and I objected, very serious- 
ly, to his sending such people as these to do my work. I pro- 
tested against it, and he still continued it. lie spoke about his 
interpreters as though he had a score, but he only had two ; and 
everything was exaggerated. 
Q. Everything was exaggerated? A. About these Jews 
— to nyy mind. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) lie was carried away by his 
sympathy'? A. I supposed he was. 
Q. ( By Mr. Brown.) You became satisfied, Mr. Erothing- 
hara, that there was something the matter with one of the two 
heads, either yours or his? A. I was quite satisfied about 
that. 
Mr. Brown. And you gave him the benefit of the doubt. 
Q. Now, Mr. Frothinghain, I am very glad that wo shall got 
the story of these Russian Jews. Did he tell you that lie had 
complained to me about them? A. Did Dr. Dixwell tell me 
that you complained, sir? 
Q. And that I ordered the board of health, lunacy and 
charity to investigate ? A. Somebody did, but I don’t think 
it was Dixwell. 
Q. What? A. Somebody did, but I don’t think it was 
Dixwell. 
Q. Now, then, this was the story of these Jews: there was 
a lot of Russian Jews, men, women and children, who 
could not speak a word of English, brought over here, and 
landed entirely destitute? A. Not entirely so; some were 
and some were not. Dixwell thought they all were. 
Q. And his sympathy for them was aroused, and he tried to 
get them sent to Tewksbury, and taken care of until they could 
be sent back? A. That is it. 
Tie-direct examination by Gov. Butler. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2917 
Q. And he did everything he could, to do that, didn’t he? 
A. He did. 
Q. And used all the means that he had at command, and 
did more than you thought he ought to do —? A. Not in 
respect to that, sir ; nothing to do with that at all; nothing to 
do with the Tewksbury business at all, I hadn’t. 
Q. He did more to get them to Tewksbury than you thought 
lie ought to? A. No; it was after they came back that the 
trouble began. 
Q. And he got them to Tewksbury. Very well. Then, 
afterwards they were sent away from Tewksbury ? There was 
some hundred of them, was there not? A. Some fifty or sixty, 
I believe. 
Q. Afterwards the}' were sent back from Tewksbury, with 
nobod}’ to take care of them, and he thought that was wrong, 
didn’t*he? A. He did. 
Q. And he did everything he could to protect these poor 
people? A. Not all poor. 
Q. What? A. They were not poor, all of them. 
Q. How do you know that? A. Well, they found money 
on them. 
Q. What? A. They found money about them. 
Q. On some of them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The poor ones were the ones he was after, were they 
not? A. Those he thought poor. 
Q. And he got interpreters, so that he could communicate 
with them, and find out what they wanted, and what could be 
done for them? A. That is it. 
Q. And find out their story. And he learned that they had 
been cheated, and brought over here by promises that each man 
should have a farm when he got here? That is what he thought 
he learned ? A. Something of that sort, I think. 
Q. And he was very much moved for them? A. Very 
much. 
Q. He was very much concerned for them ? A. His sym- 
pathies were aroused, or seemed to be. 
Q. And lie wanted to arouse yours, didn’t he? A. Very 
likely. 
Q. Well, was it not so? Rut he didn’t arouse yours very 
much? A. Why not? [Applause.] 
Q. I don’t know why not; L only asked the fact,. 
The Chairman. We must not waste any time in applause. 2918 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Why not? A. Do you want me to answer why not? 
Q. No ; T don’t care about that; because every man has a 
right to his own opinion. But whether lie did or did not arouse 
yours, he went ahead and did what he could for them, didn’t 
he? More that you thought was right? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And that was the difference between you, and on account 
of that difference he left your institution, didn’t he? A. lie 
would not have left but for those Russian Jews. 
Q. I say it was on account of that difference? That is the 
difference you speak of. A. No, not the only' thing ; because 
he did things offensive to me besides. I didn’t care about the 
difference of opinion, but he disobeyed my orders. 
Q. About the Russian Jews? Your orders about the Rus- 
sian Jews? A. Yes, sir ; about the Russian Jews. 
Q. And you thought he was not quite sound in his mind? 
A. He didn’t seem so to me. 
Q. And he left on the fifteenth? A. I think he did. 
Q. And on the seventeenth you wrote this letter? A. Wait 
a moment; that might have been the previous month. 
Q. Well, he left fifteen days before? A. The month be- 
fore. 
Q. And yet, on the seventeenth you wanted this crazy man 
to come back, and you say he was the best man you ever had? 
A, I didn’t want him to come back. It don’t say so there. 
Q. Why not? “ And I know not when or where I can ever 
expect to look for another like you.” 
Mr. Brown. He meant another crazy man. 
The Witness. I should qualify that. 
Q. Pardon me ; I don’t know what you will do now ; I want 
to know what you did then? A. I can explain that easy 
enough if you will give me time. 
Q. You were in sound mind when you wrote this, weren’t 
you? Didn’t you mean to write him the truth? A. I didn’t 
write him the whole truth ; no. 
Q. Why not? A. Because it was not well for me to do so. 
That note was written when 1 was in great sympathy with Dr. 
Dixwell, and 1 wanted him to take the money. The doctor w as 
a personal friend, the society owed him the money, and I wrote 
that letter for him to take the money, and I didn’t want to make 
it harsh. 
Q. I know. But you made it highly complimentary. You 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2919 
say he was a good visitor and did his work thoroughly ? A. I 
say so now ; the best I ever had. 
Q. And had been for how many years? A. One or two. 
Q. And had been for two years? A. A year and a half; 
he was only under pay three months ; he was a volunteer before 
that. 
Q. And did his duty out of sympathy with the poor? That 
was a peculiarity with.him, was it? A. What? 
Q. Volunteering to do work for the poor? A. All my 
visitors do — most of them. 1 wanted two or three out of 
sympathy for the others. 
Q. Well, he was not peculiar in that respect. I am content 
to have it that way if you want it. Well, it is evident he didn’t 
work for pay, because he would not take the pay that was due 
him. And you asked him to take it, and he would not? A. 
Yes, he did take it afterwards ; he took it. 
Gov. Butler. Then he acted very like a sane man in taking 
his pay. That is all. 1 won’t trouble you any further. Very 
much obliged to you. 1 have got nothing since I began this 
investigation but swindlers and cheats, and it turns out that he 
was swindling himself to take care of the Jews. A d—d lying 
rascal! 
Testimony of Charles J. Maynard (sworn) . 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Mr. Maynard, you live in Boston? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many years? A. I have lived here now a short 
time, something like a year and a half or two years. 
Q. Where did you live? A. I lived in Newton before that. 
Q. How long have you known Dr. Dixwell? A. I have 
known him about a year and a half. 
Q. Known him very well? A. I have known him intimately 
during that time. 
Q. Up to the time this investigation took place had you ever 
any suspicion that hd was a lunatic? A. Not the slightest, sir. 
Q. He always appeared to you to be a clear minded man, 
didn’t he? A. Perfectly. 
Q. Did you ever hear his character for truth and veracity 
questioned before this investigation began? A. No, sir; not 
before this investigation. 2920 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. How long have you lived in Newton? A. I was born 
1 here. 
Q. What is your business? A. I am a dealer in specimens 
of natural history. 
Q. Where? A. At No. 9 Pemberton Square. 
Q. That is where Dixwell’s office is?. A. Dixwell’s office 
is opposite, — No. 2, I think. 
Q. When did you say you first got acquainted with him? 
A. I was over on Winter Street a year and a half ago, and he 
came in there. He came in to buy a specimen of a rare sponge 
for bis nephew, who was in New York. He visited me quite 
frequently. 
Q. He used to visit to look over }'our curiosities? A. He 
was an enthusiastic scientist. 
Q. Now, have you ever had any dealings with him except in 
the matters referred to? A. In a business way? 
Q. Yes. A. No, sir. 
Q. How frequenth' have you seen him during the last year 
and a half? A. During the last year and a half four or five 
times a week, sometimes every day. 
Q." Where is he now? A. He is living, I think, on West 
Cedar Street. 
Q. When did you last see him? A. Well, since he left 
Pemberton Square. 
Q. When was that? A. Possibly a month ago, or some- 
thing like that. I don’t exactly remember. 
Q. Have you seen him since the first da}' of May? A, 
Oil, yes, sir. 
Q. Where? A. In my store, in the square. 
Q. Sure about it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you seen him since the first day of June? A. I 
don’t think I have seen him since the first day of June. 
Q. Do you know the reason why? A. No, sir; I sup- 
posed possibly he might be troubled about this investigation. 
Q. Do you know anything about it? A. No ; I don’t know 
anything about it. I only supposed. 
Q. You need not give us suppositions, because we can all 
supply those. We can suppose he is somewhere under treat- 
ment. You know he is somewhere where he has not had an 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2921 
opportunity of visiting you for a month or more? A. \ don’t 
know that. I would not say that he had not had opportunity. 
Q. Well, the disposition? A. He certainly has not been 
there. 
Q. You never noticed anything in him, you say, that indi- 
cated that he was of unsound mind? A. No, sir; not the 
slightest. 
Q. Do you know any of his friends? A. I know his sister 
and his brother-in-law slightly. 
Q. Which brother-in-law? A. Mr. Miller. 
Q. Ever have any conversation with him about his health or 
the condition of his mind? A. No, sir; never had any reason 
to. 
Q. How long have 3rou beeu in the natural history busi- 
ness? A. Ever since I was twent}T-one. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Testimony of Edward Hamilton (sivorn). 
Q. Mr. Hamilton, how long have you lived in Boston? A. 
Since 183G, excepting five years when I lived in New York. 
Q. How long have you known Dr. Dixwell? A. About 
seven years. 
Q. Have you known his family? A. I have known his 
wife about three years, I think. 
Q. How long have known him? A. I have known them 
quite intimately for the last three years. 
Q. Do you know whether he has had sickness within a few 
months ora few weeks? A. I know his general health has 
been poor for a long time, and that he has been sick, confined 
to his bed by illness part of the time since the hearing — when 
he was here. 
Q. Do you know whether he has gone away for his health? 
A. I am so informed, sir. His house is closed, and I am in- 
formed — 
Mr. Brown. Well, I submit — 
The Witness. He is not at home. 
Q. Did you go to see him while he was sick? A. I did, 
sir. 
Q. During these years have you known people that have 
known him? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Up to the time he was attacked here, in this investigation, 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 2922 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
did you ever hear his character for truth and veracity questioned ? 
A. I never did, sir. 
Q. Up to the time he was attacked here, in this investigation, 
did you ever suspect that he was a lunatic, or insane? A. No, 
sir ; I never had any such suspicion whatever. 
Q. Ever heard anything on that subject that led you to such 
a conclusion? A. No, sir. 
Q. Have you seen him and talked with him when he has 
been on the bed of sickness since? A. I have talked with 
him. He was not then in bed, but in an easy chair; he was 
looking very feeble. 
Q. In feeble health? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. See any wandering of mind, or anything? A. Not at 
all, sir. 
Gov. Butler. The witness is yours, Mr. Brown. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Where does he live? A. lie lives on West Cedar 
Street, sir. 
Q. In Boston*? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where did he live when you got acquainted with him? 
A. He lived in Pemberton Square, near the police head- 
quarters. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) A single question I want to ask, 
and I guess }’ou know it. Is he a very enthusiastic anatomist? 
A. Yes, sir; his room, his sitting-room, is filled with animals 
prepared, which he has dissected and put together anatomically. 
All sorts of birds and beasts, almost. He is an enthusiast in 
anatomy. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You say you got acquainted with his 
wife three 3rears ago. How long has he been married? A. I 
cannot say, sir; I don't know. 
Q. What brought 3*011 in contact with Dr. Dixwell? A. 
What first brought us in contact? 
Q. Yes. A. I cannot tell you. 
Q. Did you know his father and mother? A. I did not. 
I knew some of his uncles, the Bowditches. I knew Dr. Bow- 
ditch very well. I think he is very much like him. 
Q. You say his room was filled with all sorts of specimens. 
Did he ever tell you that he shot all those animals himself? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Did he tell you where lie got them? A. No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
2923 
Q. Never said anything about it? A. No, sir. 
Q. So that you didn’t have any information from him where 
they came from? A. I didn’t; only” that lie had prepared 
them. 
Q. Well, now, what did you ever see about him that was 
peculiar? A. I saw his family traits. The traits of all the 
Bowditches are developed very strongly in Dr. Dixwell. First, 
their honesty and fearlessness. I think that Dr. Dixwell is one 
of the few men who dare to tell the truth always, on all subjects, 
anywhere. I think that is a family trait of the Bowditch family, 
and I think it is very fully developed in Dr. Dixwell. 
Q. Now, what other peculiarity did you notice? A. 1 
don’t know airy other peculiarity, sir ; except, as 1 sa}’, the family 
traits are developed in Dr. Dixwell. He is an earnest, plain- 
spoken man; fearless, entirely fearless, when he feels a thing to 
be right. 
Q. What did he ever tell you that indicated to your mind 
that he was a truth-telling person, and was fearless? A. Be- 
cause — 
Q. No ; I want to know what he told you that gave you that 
impression at any time. A. Well, sir, he has talked with me 
frequently in relation to the policy7 of the state board of chari- 
ties, which applies to the almshouse and the public institutions 
of this State, and he has told me his opinion on that subject; 
and 1 believed it was strictly7 true — that it was a policy of 
wickedness. 
Q. Wait a moment. He gave you his opinion, and you 
believed his opinion was correct? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. I suppose because you had the facts b}T which }rou estab- 
lished the correctness of that opinion? A. Yes, sir ; I think 
so. 
Q. Now, you say that he told you that the policy of the 
state board of charities was one of wickedness? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, what were the facts that you had in your mind to 
show that? A. Well, in the policy — 
Q. I don’t ask you the policy. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; he is telling you the facts. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t want the policy’, I want facts. 
The Witness. Well, sir, the fact that up to 1879 the state 
board of charities had a law on the statute book by which a 
person applying to be a pauper, applying for aid, state aid, 
took the first step to the state prison; and the}r were sent to 2924 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the state almshouse and were taken by the agent of the state 
board of charities before a justice of the peace, and were com- 
mitted to the state prison for two years, at least in many in- 
stances. I can show in one year nearly one hundred people 
sent to the state prison by' a justice of the peace from the 
Tewksbmy almshouse under the state board of charities; and 
it is in their report. Such things I say are wicked. 
Q. What report is it in? A. I can find it; I think it is in 
the report of 1878. 
Q. But you say' the law was passed in 1879? 
Gov. Butler. No; up to 1879. 
The Witness. J said previous to 1879. 
Q. By the state prison you mean the state workhouse, 1 
suppose? A. I refer you exactly' to the report. 
Mr. Brown. Wait one moment. Let us see. Let us get at 
the facts.. 
Gov. Butler. He .is getting at the facts. 
Q. You say that prior to 1879 this law was on the statute 
book, doyrou? A- Yes, sir. 
Q. Ar.d the state board of health, lunacy and charity is re- 
sponsible— were responsible? A. No, sir; the state board 
of charities ; that was the name then. 
Q. That was prior to this time. That is not in existence 
now? A. That is what I was talking about. 
Gov. Butler." The same men are in existence in the state 
board of health, lunacy and charity, some of them : there are 
not so many as there were last January. 
The Witness. Pages 11 and 12 of the report of 1878. 
[Referring to a pamphlet, and reading.] 
“ If you will please turn to pages eleven and twelve of this gilded 
report of the board of state charities, under the head of 4 Trials at 
the State Almshouse,’ you will find that of the one hundred and 
seventy who went to this state charity home, and who were brought 
into the august presence of this most righteous judge, sixty-two males 
and thirty-one females plead not guilty, and forty-four males and 
thirty-three females plead guity; and ninety-seven males and sixty - 
two females were convicted —one hundred and fifty-nine of them — 
and nine males and two females were ‘ continued,’ whatever that 
term may mean.” 
G- What are 3’oureading from? A. I am reading from some 1883.] 
HOUSE - No. 300. 
2925 
remarks that I made to the committee on public charitable in- 
stitutions in 1879, which were printed. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) When the law was repealed? A. 
That law was repealed, I think, on the strength of what I say in 
this speech, which was printed. 
Gov. Butler. Put in the whole document. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now, where do you find that those 
men were sent to state prison ? A. I didn’t say men ; 1 said 
persons. 
Q. Where do you find that any one of those persons went to 
state prison? A. 1 will show you in the report. They went 
to the women’s prison. Sixty-two males and thirty-one females 
plead not guilty, and forty-four males and thirty-three females 
plead guilty. If you will take your report you will find how 
manj’ went to state prison. 
Q. Where is the state prison that you refer to? A. At 
Sherborn, I think, is the location of the women’s state prison. 
Q. So you think that is a state prison? A. For women; 
3’es, sir. I understand it so. 
Q. Is it named anywhere in the statute book as the state 
prison ? A. Prison for women. 
Q. State prison? A. It is a state institution. 
Q. Is it there named as the state prison? A. Yes, sir ; I 
suppose so. 
Q. Did you ever look it up to see whether it was named the 
state prison? A. Yes, sir; it is named prison for women. 
Q. Is it named state prison for women ? 
Mr. Mellen. I think we are consuming time unnecessarily. 
The Witness. It is a state institution. 
Gov. Butler. It is a state prison. It is not the state prison 
at Concord ; and it is not the state prison —when there was one 
— at Bridgewater. There is one for women and one for men. 
You and I know perfectly well where it is. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You understand that is simply a 
reformatory institution, don’t you? A. 1 don’t; never under- 
stood it was such. 
Q. Never knew anything about it at all? A. Y'es; I think 
I did. 
Q. You never so understood it? A. No. 
Q. Well, you have a little feeling against this board, haven’t 
you, Mr. Hamilton ? A. No further than their policy. I am 
opposed to their policy. I have no personal feeling against the 2926 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
board otherwise than their policy. I have been opposed to that, 
sir, ever since it was started. 
Q. Well, we will leave that. You visited Dr. Dixwell when 
he was sick recently. When was it? A. Well, 1 could not 
give you definitely the time ; I think within two months. 
Q. Have you seen him since the first of June? A. I think 
1 have ; yes, sir. I am quite sure I have since the first of 
June. 
Q. Where? A. At his house, West Cedar Street. 
Q. When was it? A. 1 think since the first of June. 
Q. You cannot give the date any more definitely ? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Did you have conversation with him? A. I did. 
Q. Well, now, did you notice any peculiarities on that occa- 
sion? A. Nothing; no, sir. I saw no peculiarities at all. 
Q. Didn’t see any? A. No, sir; nothing more than you 
always see in each individual. Each man is an individual, 
himself, and has his peculiarities. Dr. Dixwell lias his, and you 
have yours. 
Q. Have you inquired of members of the family since this 
investigation commenced in regard to the condition of his mind? 
A. I have not; no, sir. I have had no occasion to. 
Q. Well, you didn’t consider that his being charged with 
being of unsound mind by competent physicians was any’ 
reason ? 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I deny the competency. 
Mr. Brown. I know you deny. They were graduates of 
Harvard College, and degrees from Harvard College are not — 
Gov. Butler. Precisely so. 1 was present when one of 
them was hanged. 
The Witness. Do you wish me to answer that? 
Mr. Brown. Yes. 
The Witness. Ask it once more, please. 
Mr. Brown. I asked you — The stenographer will read it 
to you. 
[The stenographer read the question.] 
The Witness. 1 did not consider it any reason, if he was 
decided to be so. 
Q. My question was this : You heard, didn’t you, that he 
had been charged by several physicians with being of unsound 
mind? Didn’t you ever hear of that? A. 1 might. 1 have 
read the testimony in this case. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No: 300. 
2927 
Q. Now, that didn’t put you upon your inquiry in regard to 
Dixwell’s mind among his friends? A. No, sit ; it did not, 
Q. Didn’t affect you in any way? A. No, sir. 
Q. Not in the slightest? A. No, sir; because I knew him 
so well. 
Q. Ever since }7ou had known him he had always been the 
same? A. I saw no change in Dr. Dixwell, except as 1 say, 
his health is not so good as it was. 
Q. And you never heard his reputation for truth and veracity 
questioned except during this investigation? A. No, sir; 1 
don’t think I ever did. 
Q. And since you heard it in this investigation that did not 
put you upon your inquiry among his friends? A. Well, it 
would make no difference. 
Q. Of course. I know your mind is fixed, but I want to 
know simply if you have made any inquiry since ; that is all. 
A. I have asked some people, friends, if they thought he Avas 
of unsound mind,— I mean a man of truth and veracity; if 
they ever heard any such thing. I was very much surprised 
that anybody should make that statement, and I have asked a 
few friends of Dr. Dixwell if they had ever heard any such 
thing. 
Q. Whom did you ask? A. Well, I asked Mr. Godfrey 
Morse for one. 
Q. He said he hadn’t? A. lie said he never had. 
Q. Who else did you ask? A. I asked Mr. Maynard. 
Q. lie has been here? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He said he hadn’t. Who else did you ask? A. I asked 
Mr. — 
Q. Mr. Pope? A. No, sir; 1 didn’t ask Mr. Pope. 
Q. Who else? A. I asked Mr. Taft, a friend of mine in 
Pemberton Square, talking about Dr. Dixwell, if he had ever 
heard such a thing, and he said he had not. 
Q. Who else? A. I don’t remember that I have talked 
with anybody else about that. 
Q. Now, you didn’t go to any of his friends or relatives? 
A. I didn’t go to anybody purposely to find out. 
Q. When you found out that Mr. Maynard and the other 
gentlemen whom you ha\Te named never heard anything of the 
kind you gave their names so they could be called here'fas Wit- 
nesses, didn’t you ? A.’• No,: sirq T diet not. ii » /. 1 i<l Ijk.'W 
Q. Did-iiofl?ni siwi iloJib/foH l jo «6|)iijob»ooq od 2928 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Didn’t tell anybody what you had done? A. No, sir. 
Q. Sure about that? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, you are well acquainted with the Bowditehes? A. 
T would not say I was well acquainted ; I know some of them. 
Q. Why didn’t you go to them and ask them? A. I saw 
no occasion to. I had no reason to believe that Dr. Dixwell 
was anything but a truthful person. 
Q. When did you first know you were coming here to testify? 
A. This morning. 
Q. How did you know that? A. I got a summons. 
Q. Did you know you were to testify in regard to Dr. Dix- 
well? A. Sir? 
Q. Did you know this morning that you were coming 
here to testify in regard to Dr. DixweH’s reputation for truth 
and veracity? A. No, sir; I was asked to bring anything I 
had in relation to Tewksbury, and that is all I know about it. 
Q. And no intimation was given to you that you were to 
testify in regard to Dr. Dixwell’s reputation for truth and 
veracity? A. No, sir. 
Q. ( By Gov. Butler.) Let me ask you another thing T 
know you are well acquainted with, and it leads up to another 
matter. Did you see Mr. Phillips — Wendell Phillips? A. 
No, sir; I have never seen him. 
Q. Well, Dr. Bowditch, his uncle,— you say he had all the 
traits of the Bowditch family,— he was for a great many j'ears 
a leading abolitionist, of the Garrison style? A. I think Mr. 
William I. was. 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee, whether 
we are to go into the history of abolitionism. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I want to know what the traits 
were. 
Mr. Brown. The traits of Bowditch ? 
Gov. Butler. Which he has acquired. Exactly. I want to 
show that it has for many years been a trait of the family to go 
for the poor and the helpless. 
Mr. Brown. I submit that is not competent. 
Gov. Butler. It is competent in the light of your cross- 
examination. It was not competent for me to put it in, and I 
didn’t attempt to put it in. 
Mr. Brown. I have no objection to your asking anything 
about Dr. Dixwell’s traits as an abolitionist, but I don’t think 
the peculiarities of Dr. Bovyditch are to come in here. 1883.J 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2929 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; you took the evidence that he 
inherited the traits of the Bowditch family. 
Mr. Brown. I asked him a question, and he said in answer 
that he inherited the qualities of the Bowditch family. 
Gov. Butler. We all know what they were, I suppose; 
what they used to be in the olden time. That is all. 
The Chairman. Wait a moment, Mr. Hamilton. 
Q. (By Mr. Chamberlain.) A single question. I don’t 
quite understand what is meant by the sentencing of men and 
women from Tewksbury. I understand the witness that women 
were sentenced to the reformatory institution at Sherborn. 
Now I want to know if he means by the State prison that the 
men were sent to the workhouse at Bridgewater. A. As I 
understand it, the men were sent to the State workhouse at 
Bridgewater and the women to the prison at Sherborn 
Gov. Butler. And I want to call the attention of the com- 
mittee to the fact that it is called in the statutes the prison for 
women. 
Mr Brown. But not the State prison. 
Gov. Butler. And the State prison for women, too. 
Mr. Brown. Where? Let us see it. 
Gov. Butler. State reformatory prison for women. It is 
not a county institution and it is not a charitable one. It is a 
prison where there is a woman there, now, for ten }7ears ; she 
won’t be there for a great while though. Page 1246, I think it 
is, sir. 
Testimony of John B. Burns (recalled). 
Direct examination by Gov. Batter (resumed) 
Q. [Producing a bundle.] This is the one you brought this 
morning, and I have sent down for the other. [Bundle opened 
and braided mat or rug produced.] Mr. Burns, where did this 
rug come from? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. I propose to prove a contradiction of Mr. 
Marsh. He says that this rug, that his wife— he said he would 
tell you what she did with the clothing of the inmates. She 
tore them up and made rugs of them. I said : For the institu- 
tion? Yes. I now propose to show that she made rugs of 
them and sold them ; and that is where t/hb inmates’ clothing 
fvent to. Shall I be allowed? 2930 
CH A KIP A BL E INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. Do you propose, Governor, to identify that 
rug as made of inmates’ clothing? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, certainly. I have got the man here that 
bought it, and saw them made. I am thoroughly posted here. 
Got another one since that. 
Mr. Mellen. I move that the evidence be admitted. 
Gov. Butler. Not only that, but when she went she packed 
them up — when she went out she took all the rugs that had 
been made — there was some good number of them—and took 
them all away but two not worth taking away. 
Mr. Brown. I submit that this witness not only cannot tes- 
tify that question unless he testifies to that which is false ; but 
admitting that he could, it is something entirely new. This wit- 
ness was there within his reach, accessible to him all the time ; 
and an officer of the institution, part of the time, at least. 
Gov. Butler. All the time. 
Mr. Brown. And had every bit of the information then 
that he has now. 
Gov. Butler. No. 
Mr. Brown. And if I am not misinformed, the State detec- 
tive had an interview with him some time ago, upon this very 
subject, at the almshouse ; a long time before His Excellency 
closed his case. 
Gov. Butler. T don’t know but he did. But if your infor- 
mation is like the other misinformation you have had — 
Mr. Brown. Well, I generally hit it pretty nearly right. 
Now, in the first place, how is it possible for this man to know 
what this is made from ; whether from inmates’ clothes or some- 
body’s else, unless he saw it made, and saw the different pieces 
dyed — for evidently they are dyed. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no; oh, no; what a mistake that is. 
They" made them of different colored clothes. Don’t you un- 
derstand ? 
Mr. Brown. Undoubtedly they made them of different col- 
ored clothes, because they appear to be of different colors. 
Anybody can see that with half an eye. 
Gov. Butler. The dyeing is what I am talking about. 
Mr. Brown. T submit it is all new matter, which cannot be 
gone into, and ought not to be gone into. 
Gov. Butler. I charged the old lady Marsh with using up 
the inmates’ clothing for her own [im poses, and supplying her 
family in various ways with the underclothing, as I proved ; 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2931 
with the dresses, as I have proven ; for she has not contradicted 
it, nor anybody else. They thereupon bring old Mr. Marsh, 
and when 1 ask him about the inmates’ clothes, he says that she 
has made them up in rugs for the use of the institution. 
Mr. Brown. I should like to know where you find that. 
Gov. Butler. You heard it, gentlemen. Now, then, I have 
got a specimen of the rugs here; I have got the man that 
helped make them ; who knows how they' are made and when 
they were made and where they were made, dozens of them, 
and then he bundled them up and sent them away to Exeter. 
Now, of course, this is new matter. It would not have been 
new matter if somebody hadn’t lied about it before ; that is, it 
is new matter contradictory to' the theory of the defence, to 
their statements that the State property has not been em- 
bezzled. One or two of these rugs, — she made as many as 
she chose, I agree, for Tewksbury, for the use of the alms- 
house,— but she had no right to make them and send them 
away; and if people will steal old clothes, what will they do 
when the}7 have plenty of money to steal ? That is the argu- 
ment, and a sound one, too. A legal one, too. One I pro- 
ceeded on this morning. If Charles Marsh will take out three 
of the dead and absconded inmates’ accounts with acid and 
substitute something else, I don’t want to go through a thou- 
sand entries on the book with acid or otherwise. That is what 
I propose to prove, and, if the committee will allow testimony 
to go in which tends to show the state of the institution, I will 
prove it. If they won’t, they will say so, eight to seven, for 
aught 1 know. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman — 
The Chairman. That is the old insult, which I resent, for 
one. 
Mr. Brown. Ilis Excellency did charge these people with 
stealing clothes, I will admit; but nobody but he ever charged 
it. He never produced any evidence nor offered any proof. 
Now, let us see where we are. He undertook, by Mrs. Pope 
and Mrs. Thomas, and by one other witness whose name I don’t 
reca\l, — they were only three in number, — to show that Mrs. 
Marsh had been into the baggage-room where the inmates’ 
clothing was kept, and had been ransacking the bundles, look- 
ing them over. Mrs. Pope testified that she had taken out a 
silk dress and that Etta Davis subsequently was seen with a 
silk dress on of the same material, the same color. She told 2932 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
what the color was, Mrs. Pope did. We called two or three 
persons who had had charge of that baggage-room to show that 
Mrs. Marsh, while she may have been in there, never had the 
key, never kept the key, never had access to that room where 
that clothing was, and, as a matter of fact, had never taken 
any from there. 
Gov. Butler. You see, I don’t believe all that, and I am 
going to try to prove to the contrary. 
Mr. Brown. 1 have no doubt you don’t believe it. Not 
only hadn’t been there and hadn’t taken the clothes, but then 
I go further, and show that there never had been, during a 
series of years, but three silk dresses in the institution, two of 
which I produced, the other being a black or brown dress, and 
neither anything like the dress that Etta Davis was charged 
with having worn, with having made over for her. Now that is 
where the evidence on this matter stops. His Excellency said so 
much about stealing; was willing to charge that everybody who 
had anything to do with this institution was stealing ; so prodigal 
with his charges that everybody had stolen something; that, 
fearing he might say that I hadn’t met the charge, I not only 
produced witnesses to meet this specific thing charged, upon 
which there had been some testimony tending to show it, but I 
proved generally that nothing of the kind had been done. Now, 
this is what? This is something which should have been offered 
in chief; it is something which, perhaps, this man is willing to 
testify to now that he has been discharged from this institution. 
Gov. Butler. He has not been discharged. 
Mr. Brown. Or that he has left it since this investigation 
commenced. 
Gov. Butler. Why slander him? 
Mr. Brown. But never anything heard about it before ; it 
meets nothing I have put in. If His Excellency wants to show 
that the Locke woman testified to that which was false, when 
she said that old Mrs. Marsh never had a key to that room, 
that is competent, that is in rebuttal. Or, if he wants to show 
that the other lady, whose name 1 don’t now recall, who had 
charge of that room, testified to that which was false, wliep she 
said that Mrs. Marsh didn’t have access to that room, that is, 
perhaps, in rebuttal. But this is not rebuttal. This is entirely 
and absolutely new matter, as absolutely and completely new 
as it would be to undertake to investigate here the institution 
at Bridgewater, and the management there ; just as completely . 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2933 
All I can sa}T is, that if the committee see fit to let this in, I 
shall only ask for more time. 
Gov. Butler. I am to be threatened with that every day, I 
suppose. 
Mr. Brown. Oh, it is not a threat, and nobody who had a 
desire to let me have a fair chance would ever say it was a 
threat. 
Mr. Murphy. Didn’t I understand Mr. Brown to say that 
he would not require an}’ time to answer any evidence that had 
been put in so far, and what does he mean by saying he will 
require more time in this case, if this evidence is admitted. 
Mr. Brown. I suppose if I require any time it is more than 
no time. I did sa}r, not as you say, but I did say that, in my 
judgment, I should not undertake to reply to anything which 
Ilis Excellency offered this morning, because it didn’t cover 
anything, that was material. 
Mr. Murphy. Then, I think the proper language for him to 
use is not “ more time,” but that he would want time to answer 
this. 
Mr. Brown. If I had decided, as I have not, that I should 
not want any time to meet the other, it is proper for me to say 
“more time.” 
Mr. Murphy. I understood you distinctly to say you would 
not want time to meet the other. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; I said I thought likely I 
should not require any time, and I think so now. I am willing 
to give Ilis Excellency all the time — 
The Chairman. The question is, shall it be admitted ? 
Gov. Butler. One word more, please. There has been a 
mis-statement of the evidence to you, just now, from beginning 
to end. I proved first, on my side, that they took clothing 
out, and they took boxes of goods out. I then proved that 
there was a second-hand clothing woman went down there and 
bought dresses. 
Mr. Browtn. She said it was the Marshes’ personal clothing. 
That is what your own w’itness says. 
Gov. Butler. That is what she says told her. 
Mr. Brown. She says she saw the same clothes, dresses, 
worn by the ladies when she went to the institution. 
Gov. Butler. Do you suppose they stripped themselves and 
went around in their chemises while they were selling their old 2934 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
clothes? I hope not; what is the use of making a fool of your- 
self. 
Mr. Brown. I would stop it if you don’t think there is any 
use in it. 
Gov. Butler. Not only that, but they were brought by the 
trunkful down to Reading, and she went there and she had as 
much as she could lug off. I proved by two witnesses that the 
old woman went down there and went upstairs with bundles of 
clothing on her arm ; I proved in cross-examination of their 
witnesses, that she employed the sewing-girls in the sewing- 
room, when the}" were so short of help that they could not wash 
the clothing on the infants and dry it, and the shirts of the boys 
at college, — that she employed the girls up there ripping to 
pieces the clothes and making these mats. Very well. I would 
have been content to have stopped there; but they come in on 
their side and they brought that little whippersnapper school- 
girl here, the matron, Miss Locke, — so young that she would 
not tell her age ; the first instance I ever knew of a lady who 
was so young she would not tell her age, I have known some 
older that would not, — and another woman to testify. And 
they are to be believed, and you are to rule out my testimony in 
contradiction, because they are to be believed ! That is the 
proposition we have come to now. Well, then, you never need 
put in any rebutting testimony, if a reason for not putting it in 
is because these women sw'ore to it. Why, he says, one of these 
women had the key, and she says she didn’t see Mrs. Marsh take 
out any clothing. I don’t, simply, believe that; because the 
other witnesses swore the other way, that she did. Let us test 
it. I have my horse in the barn ; the key is in the hands of my 
hostler, my coachman, and I find my horse in the hands of 
somebody else. Can he put in evidence that he has not stolen 
my horse, because my coachman had the key the whole time ? 
Suppose the coachman says: “ I had the key the whole time, 
and this man never went in to my knowledge? ” But my horse 
is outside and in the hands of a thief. Is that any evidence? 
So, I have got this clothing outside. No matter who held the 
key. They didn’t keep it so secure but what things went out. 
If there is anything to be let in, this is to be let in ; if there 
isn’t anything, say so ; you have got the majority. 
The Chairman. I don’t like that allusion of yours, Governor, 
constantly, to the majority. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2935 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; it is wliat I experience constant!y, 
and, therefore, — 
The Chairman. You didn’t experience it yesterday when one 
of your friends voted the other way. 
Gov. Butler. I have heard a good deal about that vote. 
The Chairman. And you didn’t once before; and I don’t 
like — 
Gov. Butler. Good heavens ; let us see — 
The Chairman. I don’t like your constant reference to the 
majorUy and minority upon this committee. 
Gov. Butler. I think I have a right to make it. You can 
find two cases where one of my friends voted with you, after 
four months of the investigation. 
The Chairman. That is true, only two; and I think it is 
very remarkable that the other side have stood so. 
Gov. Butler. Just as much more remarkable on 3'our side as 
six is more than one. 
The Chairman. When the other side has been split up on 
almost everything, I don’t think it is good taste for jrnu to talk 
about the “majority” of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Of those who have split up, I beg their pardon. 
Mr. Murphy. The other side has always been split up one 
way, as a general thing. 
The Chairman. The record will show. 
[The question was rejected by a vote of 4 to 4.] 
Gov. Butler. That is exactly in the proportion of 8 to 7. 
The Chairman. You will have the last word, like a school- 
boy. 
Mr. Brown. You are a good mathematician ; 4 to 4 the same 
as 8 to 7. You are like the man who didn’t take account 
of fractions. 
Gov. Butler. Now, I will try again. I want to put in this 
evidence. I propose to show by this witness that he carried 
from time to time from the store-room of the institution to Mrs. 
Marsh’s private room, blankets, at different times, women’s 
under-vests, and stockings for women, two dozen at a time., 
which Mrs. Marsh would send him for. 
The Chairman. Hadn’t she a right to have all the clothing 
in the institution sent to her room, if she chose to? 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly she had. 
The Chairman. She was the matron of the institution. 
Gov. Butler. Precisely so ; that is to the weight. What is 2936 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
the inference? It lias been sworn here over and over again that 
the clothing of the institution was all made and mended in the 
sewing-room, not at her room. She has no right to have the 
under-wear of the institution carried up to her private room and 
kept there. Why sha’n’t I have the fact in to make such deduc- 
tions as I please? You will make a deduction, perhaps, in 
favor of her having blankets by the dozen up in her room, and 
suppose that she kept them there and made her room into a 
store-room, her sleeping-room, her private room, and under- 
wear by the dozens up there for her own wear, and stockings by 
the dozen up there ; you ma}r make the inference that it is all 
right. I want the fact in to make my inference from, which is 
that it is all wrong, and for the legislature to make their in- 
ference. 
Mr. Mellen. Has anybody objected to its going in? Does 
the chairman object? 
The Chairman. I don’t object. 
Mr. Brown. I haven’t heard any question asked yet. 
Gov. Butler. I will put the question. 
Q. Whether you have carried a large quantity of the Com- 
monwealth’s property, in the shape of dry-goods, and if so, what, 
up to Mrs. Marsh’s room and left it there, by her directions? 
Mr. Brown. Wait a moment; I pray the judgment of the 
committee. 
[The question was rejected, 3 to 5.] 
Gov. Butler. Well, let us tr}r again. 
Q. Were 3'ou ever put in charge of the tobacco when French 
Joe was away, and if so, did you sell it to the inmates? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
The Chairman. We will take a vote upon it. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, just think for a moment of 
that proposition ; think of it for a moment. Did he have charge 
of the state tobacco in the absence of French Joe, and did he 
sell it to the inmates. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; certainly he did. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I want to be perfectly respectful, but sup- 
posing the question was, Did he steal it; is it anybody’s account 
but his ? 
Gov. Butler. He was not the man who stole it. 
Mr. Brown. Is it anybody’s account but his? An officer of 
an institution who exercises the greatest amount of diligence 
cannot alwa3~s prevent irregularities, and, I take it, these people 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2937 
are to be charged upon their knowledge, something of that kind. 
In the first place, it is an absolutely and entirely new proposi- 
tion, never heard of before, never suggested in the oiiginal case, 
and never suggested in any manner till His Excellency came to 
the cross-examination of French Joe. 
Gov. Butler. That is early enough. 
Mr. Brown. And now he proposes by the intioduction of 
new matter to contradict a witness on a piece of testimony that 
he brought out on cross-examination, which was entirely imma- 
terial. He never asked French Joe if Captain Marsh, or the 
assistant superintendent, or the board of trustees knew anything 
about the matter of the sale of tobacco. He simply asked 
French Joe if he didn’t sell tobacco to the inmates, to which 
French Joe said he didn’t. It was not, Do you sell it with Cap- 
tain Marsh’s knowledge, or with the knowledge of any of the 
officers of the institution ? Not at all; no reference to that; but 
the simple question as to whether French Joe didn’t sell tobacco 
to the inmates, and he said he did not. Now, he proposes to 
show by this man, or to ask him the question,— and I presume 
he would not ask it unless he expected an affirmative answer,— 
that this man took the state tobacco and sold it to the inmates. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I submit if we are going into that, it is 
entirely new matter, and stands entirely upon the same ground 
as that which the committee just rejected. 
Mr. Mellen. I don’t know as it is worth while for any of us 
who are in the minority to say a word in opposition to the views 
of the counsel for Tewksbury. Thus far — 
The Chairman. I think the minority can talk as long as they 
choose. 
Mr. Murphy. And that is all it amounts to. 
Mr. Mellen. That is what I say ; 1 didn’t know but what it 
might be a waste of wind, might be exerting ourselves for noth- 
ing ; because I have learned that it has been useless, in most in- 
stances, and all that Mr. Brown has got to do is to object, —or, 
for that matter, the chairman sometimes intimates to the gov- 
ernor that his evidence is incompetent, as he did in this case, 
without Mr. Brown’s interfering at all. But I do maintain that 
this is competent evidence. I say to Mr. Brown and I say to 
the committee — 
The Chairman. I suppose I have as much right to say it is 
not competent as Mr. Mellen has to say it is. 2938 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, I am talking now. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Mellen. You may interrupt the governor, but you 
sha’n’t interrupt me. 
The Chairman. I shall. 
Mr. Mellen. Well, sir, if you do I will give you my opinion 
very plainly. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Mellen. Even if I am in the minority. When I get the 
floor of the House, as unfair as it was, or the Senate, too, pro- 
bably, they will maintain I have some rights, and, as one of 
them, I have a right to talk till I get through without being 
interrupted by you or anybody else. 
The Chairman. You just reprimanded me for making a 
suggestion. 
Mr. Mellen. I ought to have done it at the time. Many 
and many a time 3*011 have interrupted the governor with the 
opinion that that which he wanted to offer was inadmissible, 
before the counsel for Tewksbury has opened his mouth ; giving 
him the cue, as it were. I didn’t object to it at the time, but I 
ought to, and you shouldn’t have done it. It is contrary to 
propriety. 
The Chairman. I don’t think the gentleman’s remarks are 
pertinent to the question. 
Mr. Mellen. When the time comes for offering 3*0ur opinion 
you can do so. 
The Chairman. All right; if 3*011 want to speak on the 
question, do it: 
Mr. Mellen. That is what I propose to talk on. 
Mr. Chamberlain. If this discussion is to continue I shall 
move to go into executive session. 
Mr. Murphy. And waste time. 
Mr. Mellen. Yon can make all the motions 3*011 are a mind 
to, to go into executive session, but I shall not talk with any 
more freedom there than before an audience, as the gentleman 
knows. I give m3* opinion anywhere’, without fear of an3*bod3*. 
Now, Mr. Chairman, as I was remarking, I don’t know as it is 
worth while to say that this is admissible. I was about saying, 
Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Brown was wrong in wishing to have 
the committee believe that the matter of the sale of articles by 
French Joe was only drawn out when French Joe was on the 
stand. Now*, there were some parties, inmates, former inmates 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2939 
of Tewksbur}7, who testified as to having purchased from French 
Joe. 
Mr. Beowjj. Nothing said about the Commonwealth’s 
property. 
Mr. Mellen. I deem that to be Commonwealth property. 
I don’t believe in dodging a thing behind a technicality, and I 
don’t think that is even dodging it. 
Mr. Brown. You will recollect French Joe explained that by 
saying he sometimes went up to the post-office, took a man’s 
money, and got him a piece of tobacco. 
Mr. Mellen. I recollect this is what French Joe said, but 
the Tewksbury people and Tewksbury’s counsel can make very 
peculiar explanations, sometimes satisfactory to some, but not 
always to all parties. Now, sir, this is in rebuttal. This man 
acted in French Joe’s stead. The governor is trying to prove 
the policy of the office, if I may term it so, that French Joe 
held. When French Joe was not there, it is fair to presume this 
man, when in his stead, acted as French Joe did, and sold the 
Commonwealth’s goods, or whatever goods were there. Now, 
if that can be shown, it helps to prove that what was said by 
former inmates of Tewksbury, and what has been denied b}r 
French Joe — that that was the policy, that they were selling 
these goods ; and it is clear to me that it is admissible, and I 
move that it be admitted. 
Gov. Butler. I want to put in my whole case. I propose 
to prove that they sold the State tobacco, that the money was 
put into a bag, into a box with a lock on it, that he has counted 
the money and found 67 in it, that one of the Marshes had the key 
to that lock, and went and took what he wanted of the money, 
and that this was practised from 1872 to 1876, Well, now, Charles 
Marsh, — the fact of selling State tobacco, I supposed, was clear 
as the light of heaven, 21, 14, 7, so many times, and so many 
smoking old ladies, that one of the committee was kind enough 
to tell us about, onty he didn’t take the stand and swear to it so 
I could cross-examine him, so many smoking old ladies were 
there, — I supposed that wms agreed. Now, I want to know 
what became of the money. I am not accusing this witness of 
stealing it; I want to know if he didn’t sell tobacco, and if he 
didn’t place the money in a certain box, and if he didn’t see 
one of the Marshes come there and help himself, having a key 
to it. But I have got to begin at the beginning, and I have got 
first to prove that the money was in the box to his certain knowl- CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
2940 
edge ; then I have got to prove it was taken out, and I have got 
to prove whose money it was. And they put forward the fact 
that there has been an account of the State's property; they 
have been saying to us that not a dollar has been used, and not 
a cent; and here the committee are called upon to protect them, 
and keep out the evidence of the facts. Well, now, they won’t 
keep it from the Commonwealth. They had better not keep 
it out anywhere, in my judgment; better let it in. It ought to 
to come in. It is legal, and it should come in. But I am con- 
tent to have it all ruled out, because I think it will do quite as 
much good to have it ruled out; but it is not legal to rule it out. 
It is proper I should have it in. 
The Chairman. In your opinion, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir ; in my opinion, and I offer it as such ; 
and if it is like some other cases, I am wrong because five geir 
tlemen are of certain politics, and only three of the other way, 
of other politics. If the committee was composed differently, I 
should probabty be right every time, and the chairman would be 
wrong every time; that would be all the difference. It is ex- 
actl}r like that seven to eight, which I speak of here. If the 
eight were right, it was because they were Republicans ; if the 
seven were wrong, it was because they were Democrats. That 
was all. So it happens that men are so made; and men are 
made so even when they get the black silk gown on, and sit on 
the bench. Therefore, votes don’t change opinions, nor prove 
the right of opinions. 
The Chairman. My trouble with it is that j’ou had six 
weeks to put it in when there was time for the other side to 
meet it; that is my trouble with the evidence. 
Gov. Butler. I had no six weeks to put it in when it would 
contradict French Joe or an}- of their witnesses. 
The Chairman. From the thirtieth of March to the twelfth 
of Maj7 you had the witnesses here to put in wdiat evidence 
you chose. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
The Chairman. And you chose to leave this out. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I didn’t. 
The Chairman. Now, if this is put in there is no chance for 
the other side to meet it. 
Gov. Butler. Then it is not a question of law, but a ques- 
tion of kind charit}7 to the other side. That is all. 
The Chairman. A question of discretion with the commit- 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2941 
tee whether, at this late day, they will let you come iu with new 
evidence. 
Gov. Butler. It is not new evidence, and it is not a ques- 
tion of discretion ; it is a question of law. 
Mr. Brown. I should like to say a single word, and that is 
this: During the early part of this investigation I protested 
against certain rulings of the committee, and I never dreamed 
that any member of this committee was moved by any political 
bias of any kind or description. 
Gov. Butler. Of course not. 
Mr. Brown. I never thought of such a thing. But, by and 
by, when His Excellency found that on certain questions the 
committee voted with him, admitting everything, hearsay, what 
the dead said and what the living said, then there was no 
politics about it. 
Gov. Butler. No. 
Mr. Brown. But now, when the time has come that this 
committee see as men that the}’ have got to sit here for the 
next three or four months, or else pay some regard to the rules 
of law, then His Excellency threatens, first that he will get out, 
that has been repeated a half-dozen times, and leave the in- 
vestigation. Then that the men who vote against him are 
moved by political prejudice — 
Gov. Butler. There is not a word of truth in that; not 
one. 
Mr. Brown. What is that? 
Gov. Butler. There is not a word of truth in that state- 
ment ; that is all. 
Mr. Brown. Well, then, it is because His Excellency could 
not tell the truth ; that is all. That is what he said. 
Gov. Butler. No ; I don’t say so. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think it is about time 
that this committee began to consider whether the}7 will continue 
to receive such treatment. I think the committee have a 
right, — my opinion as counsel here may not be as good as 
the opinion of His Excellency, who is a lawyer of a great deal 
of experience, and who has had a great many — 
Mr. Mellen. Mr. Chairman, I protest against the gentle- 
man pursuing that line any further. We don’t want any of his 
advice as to what we want in the line of direction from His 
Excellency, and threats. We are not seeking it at all, and I 
protest against his continuing in that line. If he wishes to CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
2942 
[Apr. 
talk on the question, well and good; but if he does not, why, 
we had better get down to business. 
Mr. Brown. I can’t get on it while the gentleman is talking. 
Mr. Mellen. No ; but you haven’t been on it for the last 
fifteen minutes. 
Mr. Brown. The last minute ; I will get on it directly. 
Mr. Mellen. Do it, then. 
Mr. Brown. I say, Mr. Chairman, that His Excellency is a 
very much older and I have no doubt a verjT much abler lawyer 
than I am. I, nevertheless, have my opinion, and it is just as 
well settled, and I am just as firm in it as he is in his. Now, I 
suppose the committee, having heard the opinion of both coun- 
sel in presenting their views, and having heard the discussion 
upon the question as to whether this is evidence in rebuttal, or 
whether it is entirely new matter, are capable of deciding, and 
I certainly hope that the committee will use their best judgment 
in regard to it. I only point out, Mr. Chairman, as it seems 
to me very clear, that it is new matter, and what the conse- 
quence will be if this new matter is allowed to be admitted. 
Gov. Butler. One single word, sir. The chairman wras 
kind enough to say, as I remember what he said, that I had six 
weeks or two months—it is of no consequence, I don’t trouble 
about whether the date was right or wrong, we are all liable to 
be mistaken about that—to put in this evidence. I have already 
proved to }-ou that this man was under the subpoena of the other 
side. 
Mr. Brown. Not during the time you refer to. 
Gov. Butler. Summoned by the other side ; that is in evi- 
dence and not contradicted ; and, therefore, common prudence, 
if not common decency, would have prevented my going to him 
to find out what he knew, or sending any detective to find out— 
which would be my going — what he knew. I have not learned 
of these facts, — I learned of the facts, but I have not learned 
of the method of proving them till very recently, therefore, it is 
not my fault; I should have been glad to have put them before 
3tou. It is not my fault that they are not in before. But that 
don’t make the question of law any different, that I can contra- 
dict, put in rebutting evidence to show that what has been testi- 
fied by the defence is not true, because I didn’t put it in in chief. 
Rebutting testimony may be good both in chief and in rebuttal, 
might be put in, can almost always be put in in both cases. 
But, even if it is good in rebuttal, it don’t make it any less good 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2943 
because it might be in chief. Now, the counsel argued that as 
a matter of law it should not go in. The chairman put it upon 
the ground that it is a matter of discretion in the committee 
whether they will let it in or not. Now, can that be so? 
Because it may take too much time, or the other side be 
prejudiced. I insist it is not a matter of discretion ; it is a matter 
of right, and the}’ are to decide as judges. For, as a matter of 
discretion — I can easily see, in matters of discretion, how the 
committee ma}r be biased b}’ their feelings, political or other, 
but on a clear matter of law I don’t see how they could well be. 
Now, the chairman, — I have too much respect for his legal 
attainments to believe that as a matter of law he will say that 
when I inquired of French Joe if the mone}T was all returned, 
and he said it was, that I cannot prove that the money was not 
returned, — all the money was returned from tobacco which he 
sold, and is the mone}’ which Charles Marsh’s books show was 
given for tobacco. I think I can prove that it was not returned, 
and that these books were falsely kept, because, they do not 
contain any credit of tobacco sold. All these books, from be- 
ginning to end, haven’t a credit to the State of any tobacco 
sold. Now, I want to show that a good deal was sold, and that 
is not on the books. If that is not rebutting, I have illy studied 
the profession to which I have paid attention some forty years, 
as a mere matter of law. But, if it is a matter of discretion, if 
3Tou are going to say we won’t hear anything we don’t want to 
hear, then that is something which I cannot argue against, be- 
cause I don’t know where the butts and bounds of it are, how 
deep it goes, and how strong it is. And the plain proposition 
which I want to appear here is that I offer to show, to prove, 
that these books have not been kept correctly, that there w'ere 
large sales of tobacco, or considerable sales of tobacco, — large 
is a relative word, of course,— considerable sales of tobacco, 
of wThich there appears no account anywhere, altered by acid or 
erasure, or standing as it was made. Now, if you choose to 
vote I shan’t, I am not going to threaten, and I have not 
threatened. I haven’t threatened a half-dozen times to leave 
here. I have never threatened at all. I never have left the 
investigation at all. I have been here whenever I have been 
called here,and stayed here, and when Mr. Brown gets up and says 
I have, a half-dozen times, threatened to leave, I have not 
threatened at all. Never threatened to leave ; never said I was 
going to leave. I don’t desert my post of duty. My duty is 2944 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
here, and I am going to stay here just so long as I* can do any 
good here, and no longer and no shorter. 
The Chairman. When I said it was a matter of discretion, 
I said it on the ground that it was new evidence. That is the 
view in which I suggested the matter of discretion only. Of 
course, as a matter of law, I should agree entirely with the 
governor. Now, the question is whether the evidence offered 
shall be admited. 
Mr. Murphy. Do I understand the chairman to say he agrees 
with the governor on the matter of law in this case ? 
Gov. Butler. You could not admit irrelevant testimony as 
a matter of discretion. 
The Chairman. That is what I agree upon as a matter of 
law. As to the matter of putting in new evidence when re- 
buttal is going in, I take it that is a matter of discretion. 
[The committee voted 4 to 4, and the testimon}' was rejected.] 
Gov. Butler. I want, now, to put in this class of evidence: 
I want to prove that this man was ordered to work, and did 
work, some ten days in getting Charles Marsh’s house read}' for 
him ; that he built his chicken-coop and pens for his chickens ; 
that he counted the chickens, and there was a good many more 
of them than Charles Marsh swore there were ; and that he has 
carried the feed many times from the institution to feed his 
chickens, and has carried eggs back to the institution, once 
eight dozen at a time, which it is admitted were sold to the in- 
stitution. Now, I want to prove, in other words, that Charles 
Marsh fed his chickens, had his hen-coop built from the lumber 
and from the work in the institution, had his chickens fed by the 
institution, and then sold the eggs back to the institution and 
got his pay. That, you see, took it out two ways, counted 
double every time. I offer that testimony. I will put it in the 
form of a question, if }'ou desire. • I put that proposition. 
Mr. Brown. I want it put in the form of a question, and 
then I shall object to it. I believe that entitles me to the close. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; that is it, is it? 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; we will find out what our rights are, now. 
Gov. Butler. You have been a long time learning. 
Mr. Brown. You have been arguing the close every time I 
objected. 
Gov. Butler. I will put it directl}', so as to get it pretty 
carefully, as I am instructed. 
Q. Whether 3’ou worked ten days in getting Charles Marsh’s 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2945 
house read}7 for his occupancy when he was getting it ready to 
move into? 
Mr. Brown. Is that the whole of the question ? 
Gov. Butler. That is the whole of the question at present. 
Mr. Brown. To that I object, that it is entirely a new mat- 
ter ; never been referred to by anybody before. 
Gov. Butler. Undoubtedly not; except he swore he went 
there to live in his own house, without any expense to the State, 
except so far as his own eating wras concerned. That is all. 
Now, I am going to try to contradict that. 
Mr. Brown. Where do you find any such evidence .as that ? 
Gov. Butler. Why, precisely that. Why, good heavens ; 
you don’t remember anj'thing ! This is it. Didn’t he say he 
went there and took what food he wanted for himself, but not 
enough for his wife, because he thought he had a right, as other 
officers had, to be fed there? Now, he has no right to have a 
house fitted up for him, I suppose, by any law, from the funds 
of the institution, or by the work of the institution. I went 
over it very carefully, because I did not know then what I could 
prove against him. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, this is not only entirely new, 
but there is not a syllable of it which tends to contradict any 
testimon}7 which has ever been produced. Charles Marsh testi- 
fied — and he is the only person referred to — Charles Marsh 
testified that he boarded at the institution with his parents up 
to a certain time, when he went to keeping house. And he went 
up into a house that belonged to another man, and he got from 
that other man a certain number of hens — never a word about 
chickens — a certain number of hens ; I think there were seven. 
And he kept those hens all the time that he lived in that 
house, and when he got out of it the other day, he let the man 
have his hens back again ; or, if not the same, certainly about 
the same number — nine. He said he had occasionally, when he 
got out, taken meal from the Commonwealth, which he paid for. 
That is what he testified, distinctly — that he paid for it. And 
then he was asked if he didn’t furnish eggs to the Common- 
wealth, to be paid for. And he said he did, in some cases. 
Well, in the first place, the evidence is that they were his hens. 
Now, if he wants to show that what Charles Marsh testified to 
— that those hens didn’t belong to Charles Marsh, perhaps that 
would be competent in rebuttal. 2946 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no; that might not be in rebuttal, be- 
cause he might have hired them. 
Mr. Brown. Well, if he said they belonged to him, and it 
was material, testimony might be offered to disprove that in 
rebuttal. But this not 011I37 don’t contradict Charles Marsh, 
but it is absolutely new and immaterial in every wa}T, shape 
and manner. 
The Chairman. The committee will settle it. 
[A vote was taken and the question was rejected, two to 
three.] 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, I want to prove that he had in- 
stead of seven hens, forty-nine. 
The Chairman. Will the committee admit it? 
Mr. Brown. Well, Mr. Chairman, if this man knows in 
whom stood the title of the hens — but he don’t pretend to know 
that. 
The Chairman. Repeat the question, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I propose to ask tiiis man if he didn’t count 
the hens kept there on this food and find them forty-nine instead 
of seven, as Marsh said. The title is not of any account. I 
suppose the hens would eat about as much of the Common- 
wealth’s corn, whoever owned them. They were in Charles 
Marsh’s henner}7 and he sold the eggs ; and he claimed the title, 
and possession is prima facie evidence of title. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, Charles Marsh never testified 
that he didn’t have more than seven hens. He testified that 
when he went to that place he got seven hens, and when he came 
away he returned nine. He never said that in the interim he 
didn’t have more hens. He was there several 3'ears. But the 
point is that he has paid for everything which he ever had from 
the Commonwealth in connection with these hens. 
Gov. Butler. But he didn’t pay until he was turned out 
last June. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; he has not been turned out. 
He is there still, and they are negotiating for his future cm pi 03"- 
ment. 
Gov. Butler. If he is there still I don’t see am7 occasion for 
negotiating. 
The Chairman. The committee must settle this new hen 
question. Those in favor will raise their hands, four ; those 
opposed, three. The hen question is admitted. 
Q. Well, sir, did 3Tou carry the food to the hens? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2947 
Mr. Brown. That is not the question. 
Gov. Butler. I want to know how he happened to be there 
to count. 
Mr. Brown. That is not the question. The question is 
whether there were forty-nine. 
Gov. Butler. Well, after I get him there I am going to 
prove that — how many hens were kept on the Commonwealth’s 
meal. 
Q. Did you have occasion to go to that hen-coop? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Frequently? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How frequently? A. Sometimes every day for a week, 
or for three weeks. 
Q. For how long a space of time? A. For three years. 
Q. Did you ever take occasion to count the number of hens 
there were there? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How man}’ were there? A. Well, I went down to put 
an addition on to the hen-coop — 
Mr. Brown. I object to that. 
Gov. Butler. Let him answer. 
Mr. Brow’n. I submit that it is not competent. The ques- 
tion is how many hens were there? 
Gov. Butler. Hens and chickens I go for. 
Mr. Brown. Your question only applied to hens. 
Gov. Butler. When I speak of men I use it in the generic 
term. 
Mr. Brown. You didn’t speak of men ; you spoke of hens. 
Gov. Butler. I know ; and I can use that as a generic term, 
as well as any other. This is all nonsense. 
Mr. Brown. Then don’t keep it up. 
Q. Well, sir, how many of the feathered tribe that go on 
two legs and eat meal and lay eggs did you count? 
Mr. Brown. That is too broad. 
The Witness. I counted twenty-nine full-grown hens at one 
time. 
Q. And some chickens? A. There were some chickens 
besides ; I don’t know how many. 
Q. How many eggs did you bring away from there to the 
institution, to be sold to the institution? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
The Chairman. We will have to settle it. 
Gov. Butler. At one time. 2948 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. What is the purpose of the inquiry? 
Gov. Butler. To show that the Commonwealth that fed the 
hens bought the eggs, if it did buy them. 
Mr. Brown. But your witness has testified ; you say that 
the Commonwealth paid for the eggs. 
Gov. Butler. Their witnesses say that. 
Mr. Brown. Why shouldn’t the}7 pay for the eggs which 
Charles Marsh’s hens laid. 
Gov. Butler. Because they were fed with the Common- 
wealth’s corn. 
Mr. Brown. But the corn has been paid for. 
Gov. Butler. No. 
Mr. Broavn. I beg your pardon. You haven’t a syllable of 
evidence that the corn has not been paid for. The evidence is 
that it has been. 
The Chairman. Shall the evidence be admitted ? 
[The question was taken and the evidence was rejected, two 
to three.] 
Gov. Butler. Well, now, let us try again. 
Q. I want to ask you whether Charles Marsh’s house was 
supplied with milk regularly from the institution, and how much 
a day? 
Mr. Brown. Wait one moment. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Let us have the judgment of the committee 
again, or perhaps their discretion. The claim to the milk is put 
upon the ground that he swore he had nothing except what he 
took from the table ; and I want to contradict that if I can. 
[A vote was taken and the question admitted, five to twro.] 
Q. Did you carry any milk down to Charles Marsh’s house? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How frequently ? A. Not very often. I would take it down. 
He had a little can that held about a gallon. Whenever he 
made ice-cream in the summer-time, — that was twice a week, 
— he got his milk in that can to make ice-cream with. 
Q. Did he keep a cow? A. No, sir. 
Q. How do you know whether he got his milk regularly 
from the institution otherwise? A. I do not know. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t suppose he made ice-cream out of 
skim-milk. 
Q. Did you carry any food down to his house ? 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2949 
Mr. Brown. I object. 
Mr. Mellen. I think it is equally as competent as the last 
question. He asked if he carried milk, and now he asks if he 
carried food. I move that it be admitted. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency is entirely mistaken in regard 
to what Charles Marsh testified. If he can find on the record 
any such statement as he says, I will submit without a single 
objection. — 
Gov. Butler. Very well, I will take it as a bargain. 
Mr. Brown. Now, let us turn to the record. What is your 
statement that he said ? 
Gov. Butler. M37 statement is this: That-lie thought he 
had a right to his own food, food for himself, to be taken from 
the institution ; but that he never took awa)r an}’ but what 
would supply himself, and none for his wife. 
The Chairman. Now, if you will turn to it. 
Gov. Butler, I haven’t it, sir. 
The Chairman. There is a copy of it. 
Gov. Butler. It was testimony given yesterday ; it is not 
printed. 
Mr. Brown. I would like to know if the committee recollect 
any such testimony. 
The Chairman. Better settle it by the record. 
Gov. Butler. It is not written out, the stenographer in- 
forms me. 
Mr. Brown. My recollection is that Charles Marsh said 
that he boarded at the institution before he was married, and 
afterward he went to keeping house and had certain things. 
And that he had meal occasional\y when he got out. 
Gov. Butler. For his hens. 
Mr. Brown. And then he went on and told about beans, and 
he said that he was in the habit of sending up a pot of beans 
to be baked ; but the cook made considerable objection to it, 
and finally he got his beans from the institution rather than to 
send up a pot of his own. And then he added, in his testimony, 
that he didn’t have any other property except what he paid for; 
and then he went on and told about his payment for the meal. 
Now, if His Excellency can find an}’ testimony that Charles 
Marsh had anything of this kind which he didn’t pa}’ for — for 
that I take it is the question ; the Commonwealth has not been 
robbed if it has been paid for. 2950 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Puti.er. Tlic difficulty is that he never claimed that he 
paid for anything but the meal. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon ; he said he did. Is the record 
of yesterday accessible? 
The Chairman. I don’t think Mr. Marsh was on the stand 
yesterday ; that was on Monday. 
Mr. Brown. Now the beans are accounted for. It must be 
other food than beans. 
Gov. Butler. The question is now what Charles Marsh 
said. 
The Chairman. Yes, Governor; if you will find it. The 
suggestion is made that we adjourn. IIow much longer will }rou 
want this witness? 
Gov. Butler. I shall get through directly. I should have 
him a good while longer, but he is ruled out pretty much. 
The Chairman. I saw Dr. Talbot here. The witness might 
step aside while we are finding this. 
Gov. Butler. Dr. Talbot. 
Mr. Innis. Dr. Talbot has gone. 
Gov. Butler. He has no right to go. 
The Chairman. Let the witness go back to the stand, then. 
Mr. Gilmore. Dr. Talbot has been here all the afternoon. 
Gov. Butler. I can put on another witness. 
Mr. Brown. It seems as though we ought to recollect the 
testimony of yesterday. 
The Chairman. Mr. Burns will be here to-moirow. We 
can go on, and pass over this question now. Let him be here 
to-morrow, and we will find the record in the meantime. 
Gov. Butler. I hardly think it is of importance enough to 
keep the witness here to-morrow, sir. 
The Chairman. I think it is doubtful. Then wre will vote 
upon it. The question is, Shall this evidence be admitted ? 
The question to the witness is, if I understand it, What, if any, 
food, he carried to the house of Charles Marsh? 
[The evidence was rejected, three to three.] 
The Chairman. Now proceed, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I have other matter of the same description 
which I cannot put in under the ruling of the committee. The 
witness is open to cross-examination. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2951 
Q. Mr. Burns, when did you first go to Tewksbury? A. 
In 1866. 
Q. Under what name did you go to Tewksbury first? A. 
John B. Burns. 
Q. John B. Burns? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You went as an inmate? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. IIow long did you stay there as an inmate? A. I stayed 
there one winter, or part of two winters. 
Q. That is, between 1866 and ’67? A. And ’67. 
Q. And did you stay through the summer of 1867? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Then you went out in 1867? A. The last part of 1867. 
In March I was hired. I didn’t like the job, and left in a 
month. 
Q. Then when did you again go back to Tewksbury? A. 
I went back in September or October. 
Q. What year? A. 1868. 
Q. How long did you stay there then? A. I was there 
every winter from 1866 to 1872. 
Q. Up to 1872? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Six winters? A. Every winter. 
Q. Now, sir, why was it you went away summers? A. I 
went away in the summer-time, and went down to Gloucester 
and Beverly and went fishing. 
Q. Why did you go there winters? What was the trouble 
with you ? A. There was no fishing going on. I was injured 
while I was in the army, so I was not able to work. 
Q. What regiment were you in? A. In the Third Massa 
chusetts Cavalry. 
Q. The Third Massachusetts Cavalry. Where did you 
serve? A. I was under Maj, Gen. Butler, at New Orleans. 
Mr. Brown. Go down to the adjutant-general’s office, and 
bring up those records of the Massachusetts volunteers, including 
the Third Massachusetts Cavalry. 
The Witness. I have got a duplicate of my discharge in my 
pocket. 
Mr. Brown. Let’s see it. [Receives the document.] 
Q. Have you any relatives? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where do they live? A, I have got a brother in 
Lowell, 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 2952 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
Q. What is his name? -A. Daniel. 
Q. Daniel what? A. Daniel W. Burnham. 
Q. IIow came his name to he Burnham? A. That is my 
name — my right name. 
Q. So you have been sailing under false colors all these 
years? A. When I enlisted in the army, down in Salem, in 
1861, I had been drinking, and, for some reason, I didn’t go by 
my right name. 
Q. Ilad been drinking? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you ever been sober enough since to go back to 
your right name? A. Yes, sir; but the reason I didn’t go 
back to my right name is because that would debar me of all the 
privileges I should get from that name while I was a soldier. 
Q. Now, wha privileges have }'ou had since 1866 in conse- 
quence of your having been a soldier? A. I have had none ; 
but I have got them to look for. I might want them. 
Q. So you have kept up this false name? A. I have not 
kept it up. They know my name at the almshouse — my right 
name ; they have known it at the office. 
Q. Did you ever sign your name as John B. Burnham? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Never have? 
Gov Butler. Since }’ou came from the army. 
Mr. Brown. I mean since you came from the army. 
The Witness. Since 1 came from the army ? Yes, sir. 
Q. Where? A. In letters I have written to my brother 
from the almshouse. 
Q. Any other place? A. No, sir ; not that 1 remember. 
Q. Was there anybody, outside of two or three of the 
Marshes, at the almshouse, who has known that your name is 
Burnham? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Has your name ever been on the pay-roll of the institu- 
tion as Burnham? A. No, sir. 
Q. Always John B. Burns? A. That is the name 1 went 
there under, and the name I have gone under while I have been 
there. 
Q. Now, have you written to any other relatives since you 
have been there? A. No, sir; not that I know of. 
Q. Now, what was the trouble? What was the specific dis- 
ability that you had? A. Well, while I was on Ship Island 
we were practising with green horses, drilling them, teaching 
them to jump poles. I had an old plug that could not jump 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2953 
over a straw, and I was trying to make him jump over a pole 
three feet high, and he struck his forefeet and turned a somer- 
sault and came down on top of me. I was ruptured and injured 
internally, and never have been well since. 
Q. Ever applied for a pension? A. No, sir. 
Q. Why not? A. I went and saw Mr. Ilobbs down here; 
he wanted a large retainer to take it up, and I didn’t have the 
means to give it to him. 
Q. In what year did you receive that injury? A. In 
1862. 
Q. In 1862? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You never applied to Gen. Butler for a pension? A. I 
have never seen him, from that day to this, until I saw him 
here. 
Q. Now, is that the only reason you didn’t apply for a pen- 
sion? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Sure about it? A. That is the reason I didn’t apply 
for a pension ; because I got along without it. As long as I 
could get along without it, I have done so. 
Q. But you were so poor you wrent to the poorhouse in the 
winter? A. At the first of it. 
Q. That is, for six winters you wrent to the poorhouse? A. 
I could stay there. They hired me the second winter, and I 
didn’t like. The job that I had was so confining that I couldn’t 
stand it. 
Q. What was it? A. Gatekeeper. 
Q. Exposure have anything to do with it? A. No, sir. 
Q. You were able to do the work? A. There was no work 
about it; it was the confinement. 
Q. Now, you have been there continuously through each 
year for how long a time? A. Since 1872. 
Q. About eleven years? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, how much have you had a year? A. Well, I 
should say twelve dollars a month. The}” didn’t suppose that I 
was able to do full work, so all I got was about half pay'; and 
I done more than half the work 
Q. Are you certain that you in any year received more than 
one hundred dollars? A. I know it. 
Q. Perfectly certain of it? A. Certainly; I have got m3’ 
twelve dollars per month since I have been there. 
Q. You signed the pay-roll and receipted for the money’. 
Gov. Butler. Let us go home. 2954 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Chairman. His Excellency suggests that we adjourn. 
Gov. Butler. I only want to finish this. 
Mr. Brown. Well, it may take me some time. 
The Chairman. I would like to sit it out. 
Mr. Brown. I will cut it as short as 1 possibly can. 
The Chairman. Go ahead as rapidly as you can. 
Q. Now, you don’t know an}’ reason except what you have 
stated why you shouldn’t have a pension, do you? A. I am 
entitled to it if I could only hunt up the witnesses. I am en- 
titled to a pension and $200 besides. I never got a cent of 
bounty. 
Q. You say you left the institution when? A. About 
three weeks ago. It was three weeks last Saturday. 
Q. When was it you were summoned first as a witness? A. 
Which one do you mean ? 
Q. I mean the first time you say you were summoned? A. 
It was about a fortnight, I think, before I left. 
Q. That is some five weeks ago? A. Although I would 
not be sure ; it was only a short time before I left. 
Q. Did you ever have any interview with anybody, except 
that you have referred to with Thomas J., Jr., in regard to your 
testimony? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever see me before? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. To have an interview with me? A. I was introduced to 
you one day, if you will remember. 
Q. Where was it? A. I and Mr. Howard ; at the table — 
we were eating dinner. 
Q. How came you a State charge? You were born in Not- 
tingham, N. H. Do you know? A. No, sir. 
Q. When did you come to Massachusetts first? A. I came 
to Massachusetts when I was six years old. 
Q. And you have lived here ever since? A. Lived here 
ever since. 
Gov. Butler. Others from New Hampshire have got to be 
State charges. 
The Witness. How is that discharge ? 
Mr. Brown. Oh, that is all right. I will return this to you. 
[Returning to witness his duplicate of discharge.] 
Q. Now, when was it you had this conversation with Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr.? A. It was the next day after I got the sum- 
mons. I got the summons about twelve o’clock Saturday, and 
it was the next morning after. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2955 
Q. Sunday morning. Where was it? A. In the office. 
Q. How came you there? A. I went there on purpose to 
see him. 
Q. Now, I want you to repeat just what you said and what 
he said to you? A. Well, I went to the office, and he was 
there and I asked him if he knew I had got a summons to come 
up here. 
Q. That was the first thing said, was it? A. That was the 
first thing that was said. That was in the inside office. There 
was somebody else there, and he opened the door and beckoned 
me out into the outer office where there was nobody. 
Q. Then what was said? Now, there was nobody present 
but you and he ? A. But he and I — that I saw. I asked him 
again if he knew I had got a summons, and I forget whether he 
said he knew that I had, or didn’t know. Anyhow I told 
him I had got one, got one the day before, and told him I didn’t 
want to go up. 
Mr. Mellen. Speak a little louder. 
The Witness. I told Mr. Marsh I didn’t want to come up 
here and that he didn’t want me to come up here. Then he 
walked up and down for a minute and said he, “ Why ? ” Said I, 
“ I suppose you know why just as well as I do, but if you want 
to know wiry, there is only one thing about it; if you want me 
to go up there I will go, but I am going to answer every ques- 
tion that is put to me with perfect candor, I don’t care what it 
is. I am going to do it without any fear or favor of anybody.” 
“ Well,” said he, “ if that is the way you talk, we don’t want 
you.” 
Q. He said “ we”? A. He said “ we.” 
Q. Do you know anything about what he referred to? A. 
I supposed he meant the family ; that is what I took it to be. 
Q. That is what you took it to be? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, hold on. Up to that point, you have stated it just 
as it took place? A. Yes, sir; just exactly. 
Q. Word for word? A. Word for word, as near as I could 
remember. 
Q. But you are sure 3*011 give the substance? A. I am 
sure of it — perfectly sure of it. 
Q. Now, go on and finish the conversation? A. I asked 
him what I should do with the summons, and he told me to tear 
it up, and he would see Mr. Brown the next morning and make 
it all right. 2956 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. That was the end of the interview? A. I walked out, 
and he walked into the office. 
Q. Nothing more said from that time up to the time you 
were summoned here the day before? A. Yes; there was. 
He came to me again. 
Q. I don’t ask you what he said. I wanted to know if there 
was anything said after that? A. About that summons? 
Q. Yes. A. Yes. Do you want to know what it was? 
Q. No; I don’t ask what it was. Now, Mr. Burnham, are 
you perfectly certain that you were there at this reduced price 
on account of a physical disability? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. Perfectly sure? A. Just as sure as that I am sitting 
here. 
Q. How many times have you been confined to your room 
for a week at a time since you have been there, because you 
were under the influence of liquor? A. Not once. 
Q. Not once? A. No, sir; not a week. 
Q. Well, five days? A. Nor five days. 
Q. Two days? A. Perhaps I might two days. 
Q. How many times have 3*011 been confined to your room 
in a state of intoxication, Mr. Burnham, for two dayTs? A. I 
never was drunk. 
Q. Well, in a state of intoxication ; under the influence of 
liquor? A. Never in my life. 
Q. Well, I understood you to admit, a few moments ago, 
that you had been confined to your room on that account ? 
Gov. Butler. No, he didn’t. 
Q. Not drunk? A. Not under the influence of liquor. 
Q. What was you under the influence of? A. Well, some- 
times I would go off on a kind of a spree for a few da}Ts, and 
when 1 would come back — 
Q. Well, when you went off on a spree, how many days did 
it take to get back? A. To work again? 
Q. Yes. How many days were you gone on a spree? A. 
Sometimes I would be gone a couple, or two or three days. 
Q. Ever gone a week? A. I won’t be sure. 
Q. Don’t }Tou know }rou have, Mr. Burnham? A. I think 
I was once. 
Q. Gone a week? A. Y”es, sir. 
Q. When was that? A. That was a good while ago. 
Q. How long ago? A. Tt is more than two }Tears. 
Q. More than two years ago? A. lres, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2957 
Q. That was the first time that that took place? A. I can’t 
remember but once, and then Tom Marsh came to Boston and 
hunted me up. He thought I would never come back. 
Q. He hunted you up? A. Yes. He thought so much of 
me he came and hunted me up. 
Q. Where did he find you ? A. He found me at a sailor’s 
boarding-house, where I used to board. 
Q. Where? A. Down on North Ferry Avenue, if you 
know where that is. 
Q. I don’t. Was that the first time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, what other time have you been off on a spree when 
you didn’t stay quite a week? A. Well, perhaps during the 
whole time 1 have been there it would be about twice a year. 
Q. Twice a year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Periodically? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And generally from two days to a week? A. Only 
once for a week. 
Q. Well, what is the next longest time ? A. Generally two 
or three days, that is all. 
Q. Well, that has taken place in even7 year that you have 
been there, has it not? A. No, sir; it has not. 
Q. What year was there when that didn’t occur? A. The 
last two }Tears it has not occurred. 
Q. That is, this spree of a week? A. I have not been 
away hardly a day. 
Q. Since that? A. Since that. 
Q. You say hardly a day? A. Well, I have been to Bos- 
ton and stayed one day, and 1 have been to Lowell and stayed 
one day. 
Q. Well, was it during any of these sprees that 3'ou counted 
these hens and chickens? A. No, sir. 
Q. Were 3Tou perfect^7 sober then? A. I never went to 
work until I got sober. 
Q. Well, 3'Ou were perfectly sober when you counted the 
hens and chickens? Sure of that? A. Yes, sir; I am cer- 
tain sure of that. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Gov. Butler. Has Dr. Talbot come in? 
Mr. Innis. No, sir. 
The Chairman. The public hearing is now closed. We ask 
counsel to remain with us for a few minutes. 
Adjourned to meet on Thursday, July 12, at 9.30 a. m. 2958 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
SIXTY-SECOND HEARING. 
Thursday, July 12. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a.m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, T want to make a single reser- 
vation, which I find from the report I perhaps gave away last 
night. 1 want to call a single witness in regard to the acid on 
the book, when the governor has completed his case. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon ; I cannot give way now. 1 
have but little time left. 
Mr. Brown. I mean this afternoon when we get through. 
Gov. Butler. We will see. 
Testimony of James Rowen (sworn). 
Direct examination by Goo. Butler, 
Q. Mr. Rowen, you are employed at Mount Auburn, I be- 
lieve? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was your wife, Sarah Rowen, sent from Boston to Taun- 
ton insane asylum in 1878? A. She was. 
Q. And sent from there to Tewksbury almshouse in 1882? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did she die there? A. The 24th day of June, 
1882. That is the date the letter said. 1 have the letter here. 
Q. Let us see it. [Witness produced the letter.] You got 
this notice? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. [Reading]: — 
“ June 24, 1882. This is to notify you that Sarah Rowen, who was 
sent here from Taunton hospital, died at this institution. If there are 
friends who desire to remove her remains it will be necessary to 
bring coffin, burial robe, etc., without delay, Please reply imme- 
diately. As it is so warm the remains cannot be removed until cold 
weather.” 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2959 
What day did you get this? A. I got it the 24th of June, 
late in the evening. 
Q. How soon did you start? A. I started to Boston. It 
was on a Saturday, and there was no conveyance to Tewksbury 
on Sunday, and I went down on Monday morning early, and we 
got there at 9.40 on the train, and they" said she was buried. 
Q. Well? A. Then Mr. Marsh told me — 
Mr. Brown. Wait a moment. I think this thing has gone 
far enough to show that there isn’t anything in rebuttal. The 
matter is entirely new, and I don’t recollect anything about that 
matter having been referred to in any shape or manner. 
Gov. Butler. I admit that. 
Mr. Brown. I suppose, then, if Ilis Excellency admits that — 
Gov. Butler. I want to say that the old gentleman and the 
doctor testified that the remains were always given to friends. 
I propose now to show that this man went there and they said 
he could not have it then, but might have it in cold weather, and 
that when he got there in cold weather he was told they could 
not find the remains, and they didn’t know where they were. I 
think that contradicts the evidence given. Of course it is new. 
If it had been here before we could not put it in again. 
Mr. Brown. I do not see that it contradicts anybody at all. 
The case of this person has never been referred to before. 
Gov. Butler. That is of no consequence at all. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency didn’t call the attention of any 
witness to it in his examination. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t know it. 
Mr. Brown. The testimony of the defence in every instance 
is that they tried to communicate with friends. Here is a case 
where there was communication with friends, but they followed 
some statutory provision in some way which said that the body 
should not be removed in June until the cooler weather. 
Gov. Butler. There is no such statutory provision. 
Mr. Brown. There is a provision prohibiting the removal of 
remains in warm weather, except by the consent of the board 
of health of the city or town. 
Gov. Butler. That applies to cities and towns. 
Mr. Broavn. So this matter has never been referred to before 
now. 
Gov. Butler. Never. 
Mr. Brown. They don’t testify to the fact that there was 
some mistake, or anything of that kind. With the means the 2960 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Commonwealth provided for burial of these people and identi- 
fication of their graves, it is perfectly possible that some mis- 
take might sometimes take place. I submit that it is entirely 
new. If it is gone into it will necessitate the calling of the 
person whom this man says he had the conversation with, to 
see what the facts are. 
Gov. Butler. I am going to try to show how far it will be 
evidence tending to show that it isn’t true that people could get 
their bodies when they went there. This man went there just 
as fast as he could. He could not get it, and was told he could 
get it when cold weather came. I propose to show that he went 
there in September, taking proper means, of course, to remove 
the body in, and when he got there they told him they didn’t 
know where the bod}’ was and that they could not find the 
grave. The statute wasn’t complied with. The statute was 
that they should have the bod}7, and it was for them to take 
care of it and see to it. The Commonwealth hasn’t stinted 
them with means at all for that. 
Mr. Brown. It doesn’t appear that this man complied with 
the terms of the law and got any burial permit or anything of 
that kind. 
Gov. Butler. It don’t appear, because I cannot get a chance 
to put it in. 
Mr. Brown. He had no right to the body without a permit. 
Gov. Butler. The husband has a right to his wife’s body 
everywhere on earth, except at Tewksbury. [Applause.] They 
didn’t put it upon the ground that he had no burial permit. 
They put it upon the ground that the body had gone to Harvard. 
The Chairman. 1 think the committee should consider 
whether the hall should not be cleared. Mr. Officer, put out 
the man, if you find one, making a disturbance. 
Gov. Butler. Miserable subterfuge. 
The Chairman. Will the committee admit the evidence? 
Mr. Chester. I wish to have my mind enlightened a little 
as to the date. I didn't get it. 
Mr. Brown. 1882. 
Mr. Chester. The time he received the notice and the time 
he went there for the body of his wife, — the date of the notice. 
Gov. Butler. The notice was the 24tli of June, 1882, 
which was Saturday. He received the notice, went up Satur- 
day night, came as far as Boston, could not get any further 
Sunday, got there Monday morning, and was told it was buried 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2961 
and was told he could come and get it in cooler weather. Now, 
I propose to show he went there and could not get it, and they 
could not find it. 
The Witness. I wanted to prove that. I went there in 
cold weather anil could not find it. 
The Chairman. Governor, I wish you would restate what 
you said, so that the members who have just come in may un- 
derstand it. 
Gov. Butler. This witness had a wife sent from Taunton 
hospital to Tewksbury. He had taken pains to give notice of his 
interest in her. On the 24th day of June, which was Saturday, 
he got a notice that she had died. He tried to get there Satur- 
day, but there was no conveyance to Tewksbury on Sunday, 
and he got there Monday morning. He was told she could not 
be taken away in warm weather, but he could get it in cold 
weather. lie came in cold weather with a cotiin and was told 
by the person in charge that they could not find the body. He 
will tell you how much search was made for it. The man was 
not only put to the expense of going there, but of buying a 
coffin. 
The Witness. And also the expense of digging the grave. 
The Chairman. Mr. Brown, state your objection in about a 
minute. 
Mr. Brown. My objection is this, Mr. Chairman : This case 
has never before been referred to by His Excellency, either in 
chief or upon cross-examination. 
Gov. Butler. You needn’t state that. I think I stated it 
over and over again. 
Mr. Brown. You didn’t state it in the presence of two mem- 
bers, who have just come in, in any shape or manner. It is 
entirely new. I said in the first place it isn’t in c mtradictiou of 
anybody. His Excellency took occasion, during the early 
part of this case, to call the attention of the committee to the 
statute which prohibts the removal of an}' body except upon 
the permit from the town authorities. And we had a case where 
an officer was put on here as a witness, and he, I think, qualified 
himself by saying that he had such a permit for a certain pur- 
pose. Now, there isn’t the slightest evidence that this man 
asked for a permit or undertook to get any, or that anything 
was ever said about it; not the slightest evidence, in the first 
place. So he hasn’t placed himself in a position where he was 
entitled to ask the authorities at Tewksbury for the removal of 2962 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that body. That is the first objection. Now, I say the next 
objection is, it isn't in rebuttal in any manner or form. It is 
entirely new, and it involves, of course, if the committee are 
disposed, as I said before in regard to other matters, —it in- 
volves the giving of the defence an opportunity to meet it. 
Mr. Putney. Before this matter is taken, I would like a little 
light upon this matter of rebuttal testimon}’. I would like to 
inquire if it is in ever}’ case to be confined to evidence which 
has been presented. If I understand, the line of evidence has 
been in contradiction of what His Excellency attempts to get 
from this witness. It seems to me any rebutting testimony 
which has a tendency in that line is proper. I ask for informa- 
tion. 
The Chairman. I suppose an}- evidence is in rebuttal which 
tends to contradict what has been put in by the defence. 
Gov. Butler. I only wanted to state the facts, and then 
Mr. Brown went into an argument. The}’ have sworn here that 
all friends could get all the bodies, and I want to show that they 
didn’t. 
Mr. Brown. I would like His Excellency to point out such a 
case upon the record. 
Gov. Butler. I haven’t time to go over it. Mr. Marsh 
swore over and over again, and the doctor also swore, and 
Charles Marsh swore, that friends could get bodies when they 
called for them ; but this is testimony showing that one person 
could not get the body which he called for. I don’t propose to 
give up half au hour of my time to go over the record. The 
man did everything he could to get the body. Now it is said he 
didn’t have a permit from the board of health to remove it. A 
mere subterfuge. Mere cheek, because I am prepared to prove 
that at Tewksbury they didn’t want the permit. I am prepared 
to prove this fact by the man who dug the grave, the letter and 
everything to show that lie went for the body and didn’t get it. 
Mr. Putney". I think we had evidence at some stage of the 
proceedings where some woman went to Tewksbury after the 
remains of some friend, and failed to get them. She went with 
a coffin prepared, and failed to get the remains. 
Gov. Butler. Two women. 
Mr. Brown. I beg the gentleman’s pardon. The daughter 
of this old woman had died at Tewksbury and she didn’t get 
the notice promptly, and when she got to Tewksbury the 
(laughter h&d been buried and it wa« warm weather, and they 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2963 
said she could not have the body without going through certain 
formalities and getting a permit, and she abandoned it. Now, 
there was no occasion for ns to grant her request because she 
was in fault. Because the authorities were not required, and it 
was unreasonable to ask them to have kept that body until the 
mother came, because they didn’t know whether she would come 
or not. But this is a totally new state of facts. 
Gov. Butler. If all day is to be taken up in this argument, 
I had better abandon the matter. 
Mr. Brown. When I am charged with subterfuge and tricks, 
I propose to reply if it takes all the time. Now, I want to 
illustrate for a moment what I meant by rebuttal in this case. 
If this case had been referred to by His Excellency in chief, 
and he said the man had applied for that body, and we said we 
could not find it, and we came in and said that no such man 
ever came to Tewksbury to apply for a body, or there wasn’t 
any such a body ever there, he might reply that there had been 
a body there and it had been buried and that he went for it, and 
that might be in rebuttal. But this isn’t in rebuttal in any 
shape or manner. 
Gov. Butler. That is to say, it only applied to putting in a 
thing that wasn’t true. I have a case where the body was there, 
where the notice was sent to the man to come and get it, where 
the man went for it and he was told, You cannot have it till cold 
weather ; and then he came with his coffin, robe, and grave dug, 
and it cannot be found. Now, that is all there is of it. If that 
don’t contradict the whole theory of the defence, that the law is 
carried out at Tewksbury, I have failed to know what is com- 
petent evidence, or that evidence which bears upon men’s minds. 
The Chairman. Shall it be admitted? 
Mr. Risteen. Please state the question again, Mr. Chair- 
man. 
The Chairman. The governor offers to show that this man’s 
wife died at Tewksbury last June. He went for the body, and 
was told it was hot weather and he could not have it, and if he 
came for it in cold weather he should have it; and he went in 
cold weather and didn’t get it. The question is, ought it to be 
admitted. 
[The committee voted to admit the question.] 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, sir, }’ou said under voice 
here, that you dug the grave. Did you dig a grave for your CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apt. 
2964 
wife ? A. I sent word out to the cemetery to have the grave 
dug the day after the evening I went to Tewksbury. 
Q. And in December you went for the body? A. The 
first of December. 
Q. Whom did you see there? A. I seen Mr. Marsh, the 
first person I seen. 
Q. Tell him what you wanted? A. I told him what I 
wanted. 
Q. Go on, now, and tell all that happened. A. He told 
me it was buried, and he didn’t know what was the sickness she 
died of. lie sent for the doctor, and the physician was away, 
and a woman had to come and take her place, and it was pretty 
hard ; and she died some time during the night. I asked him 
what she died with, and they said she died right off, and she 
said — 
Mr. Brown. 1 pray the judgment of the committee? What 
has this to do with it? 
Gov. Butler. I want to show that it was not an infectious 
body, so that they need not want to refuse to dig it up. They 
found she died of heart disease. [To witness.] Well, what 
then? A. I went home, and they told me to come in cold 
weather. 
Q. That was the first time? A. Yes, sir. 1 went home 
and got an undertaker, and got a coffin, and dug a grave, and 
went to Tewksbury and see Mr. Marsh. I went down to the 
place, and could not find it. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Were you present? A. Of course, 
I was there. He went down to the burying-ground, and could 
not find the grave, and so 1 had to come home, and take the coffin 
home. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) And you did not get the body? 
A. 1 didn’t get the body. 
Q. (By Mr. Putney.) Where was Mr. Marsh when you 
were there? A. I don’t know. It was a young man. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) How young was he? A. A man 
that would pass for 30. 
Q. About 30? A. I think so. 
Q. Light complexion? A. Kind o’ dark, I think. 
Q. Kind o’ dark. Cross-eyed? A. No, sir. 
Q. Wasn’t cross-eyed. This was the first day of December 
of last year, was it? A. First of December? 
Q. Yes. A. No; it w-as the time I wras thereafter her. It 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2965 
wasn’t the first of December; it was the first week in Decem- 
ber. 
Q. First week in December. And yon went down there 
with him. Now, who went with you besides Mr. Marsh and 
the undertaker? A. I took the undertaker with me there. 
Q. I know ; but besides yourself and Marsh and the under- 
taker was there anybody else? A. No ; not that day. 
Q. You looked for a little cross which had her name written 
upon it, didn’t you ? A. I did. 
Q. And could not find it? A. I could not find it. 
Q. And Mr. Marsh didn’t know where she was buried? A. 
Mr. Marsh didn’t say so ; the undertaker said so. 
Q. In Mr. Marsh’s presence? A. No, sir; the undertaker 
looked for the body. 
Q. Then Mr. Marsh didn’t go down there? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then I ask you what you mean by telling this committee 
that he went down there? A. I didn’t say any such thing. 
Q. You lake that back? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Then it was you and nobod}' else but the undertaker? 
A. There were three down there: the undertaker, the under- 
taker at Tewksbury, and myself. 
Q. Mr. Marsh didn’t go down? A. No, sir. 
Q. And the undertaker at Tewksbury didn’t know where 
the grave was? A. No, sir. 
Q. And could not find it? A. No, sir. 
Q. And your undertaker didn’t know where it was? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Did you go back and ask Mr. Marsh to come and help 
you find it? A. I did not. 
Q. Did Mr. Marsh say to you in any form of words,-in De- 
cember, that he was unwilling you should have that body? A. 
He did ; he told the undertaker going down that if the body was 
not fit to be removed, not to remove it. 
Q. Not without a permit? A. I don’t know whether he 
said anything about a permit. 
Q. You are employed at Mount Auburn-? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You know that bodies cannot be removed in December 
without a permit? A. I don’t. 
Q. What do you do at Mount Auburn? A. I take care of 
lots. 
Q. Take care of lots, and that is all? A. Yes, sir. 2966 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
(Apr. 
Q. Now, sir, you didn’t go back to the institution at any 
time after that to find the grave? A. No. 
Q. You did not? A. I did not. 
Q. You went straight to the depot? A. I went straight to 
tiie depot when I could not find the grave. 
Q. Went straight to the depot when you could not find the 
grave? And you never indicated to Capt. Marsh that you 
could not find the grave? A. No ; not after that. 
Q. You never communicated with an\7 other officer of the 
institution that you could not find the grave? A. No. 
Q. And never have to this day? A. Never have. 
Q. And never complained to anybody connected with the 
institution? A. I complained to a good many. 
Q. Never complained to anybody connected with the insti- 
tution until jou came here? A. No, sir. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) The undertaker of the institution 
went with you and told you he could not find the grave? A. 
Ite did, sir. The da}r she was buried, the day 1 went there, he 
put the name upon the cross of the grave. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You were there when the name was 
put upon the cross iu the first place? A. I was. 
Q. And when you went there in December you could not 
find the grave? A. I could not find the name. I found the 
cross. 
Q. But you could not find the cross with the name of your 
wife on it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you write the name on the cross? A. No, sir; 
the undertaker wrote the name in my presence. 
Q. What was the name of the undertaker? A. I don’t 
know. 
Q. ( By Mr. Chester.) What did the undertaker write the 
name with? A. With pencil. 
Q. With an ordinary peneil? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you find names on other graves legible? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. You can read? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And could read the name upon the cross? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2967 
Testimony of Wendell Phillips ( sioorn ). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q How long have you known Dr. Dixwell — Dr. John Dix- 
well? A. Well, I have known him ever since he was a boy, 
more or less. I have known him more for nearly the last seven 
or eight years from having been a fellow-worker with him in 
different societies. 
Q. Yoq knew his family? Dr. Bowditch, his uncle, was a 
noted man in his time, both professionally and philanthropically ? 
A. The time hasn’t gone, sir; he is living. 
Q. When I said his time, I meant during the time he was 
noted? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, what is the character of John Dixwell for truth 
and veracity? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. What is the trouble? 
Mr. Brown. I don’t understand that that is the way to 
rebut evidence when a man has been impeached. 
The Chairman. I understood the governor to ask what his 
reputation was. 
Gov. Butler. I said what his character was. I will put it 
in the form of character. 
Mr. Brown. You objected to that form of question in my 
instance. 
The Chairman. The question should be, what his reputation 
is. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What is his reputation? A. I 
never heard it questioned in the world. I wrould believe him on 
oath and without oath, implicitly. 
Q. You say you have been a fellow-worker with him in 
various societies ; you mean charitable and benevolent socie- 
ties? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Whether he is a lunatic or not? A. Well — 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of this committee. I 
suppose Mr. Phillips isn’t an expert upon insanity. 
Gov. Butler. It isn’t a question of experts on insanity. 
Mr. Brown. Yrou put the question as you never put it 
before. 
Gov, Butler. You can have a chance to put it the other 
way. [To witness.] Whether you have ever known of big 
being a lunatic? A, No, sir, 2968 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Or doing any insane action whatever? A. No, sir; 
never. 
Q. Ever heard anything of that kind until after this investi' 
gation? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. The witness is }’Ours. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Broion. 
Q. Mr. Phillips, how frequently have you seen him in the 
last three years? A. More frequently than 1 saw him before. 
I see him as a man sees a person who is working with him, now 
and then, but I see him oftener and keep track of him all the 
time. 
Q. Now, let us take the matter of his soundness of mind. 
You say you never heard anybody raise the question that Dr. 
Dixwell was not of sound mind? A. Never; never. 
Q. Have you read the testimony of Edward Frothingham 
given here yesterday? A. No, sir; it wouldn’t alter my opin- 
ion in the least. 
Q. I didn’t ask 3 ou that. A. I haven’t read an}’ testimon}\ 
What I know I know, and I don’t want any other man’s opin- 
ion. 
Q. Then the testimony of experts that he was of unsound 
mind, or the testimon}’ of his friends that he was doing things 
which indicated unsoundness of mind, wouldn’t affect your 
judgment? A. Not the slightest. I should judge for m}’self 
whether he was of sound mind or unsound. I have seen him 
intimately enough to be perfectl}' well convinced that he was of 
sound mind ; but, having been suspected of having been of un- 
sound mind myself, I don’t place much reliance upon those sus- 
picions. A ver}’ earnest, devoted and indefatigable man, who 
walks straightforward to his purpose without letting anybody 
interfere with him, is nine times out of ten suspected of unsound 
mind. 
Q. Is that your experience ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, the opinion of Mr. Hecht who saw him as a co- 
worker in assisting the Russian Jews — 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon ; not a co-worker, but a worker 
against him. 
Mr. Brown. The}’ both had worked together. 
Gov. Butler. There was no such testimony. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. The testimony of Mr. Froth* 1883.] 
HOUSE-No. 300. 
2969 
inglmin was that Mr. Hecht told him the same thing, and that 
they Worked together. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Frothingham didn’t say Mr. Hecht was 
undertaking to assist the Jews. That is the distinction. 
Mr. Brown I didn’t say he did. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon. 
Mr. Brown. But he said Mr. Hecht was at the head of a 
Hebrew society which undertook to assist the Jews. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon ; he didn’t. 
Mr. Brown. Then I will frame the question differently. I 
don t want you to take up any more of your time. 
Gov. Butler. I will take my owti time'. 
Mr. Brown. I will change the question. ( To witness.] 
Do you know Mr. Hecht? A. I do, sir. 
Q. Do you know Mr. Edward Erothinghain? A. I don’t. 
I have heard of him. ' 
Q. Did you ever hear that Dr. Dixwell was expelled from 
the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children? A. I 
knew there was a difficulty in that respect. I never knew the 
reasons why. I have had forty years’ experience in societies. T 
don’t always take the ground when a man has a quarrel with a 
society that the man is necessarily wrong. In a quarrel between 
Mr. Hecht and Mr. Frothingham and Dr. Dixwell, I should be- 
lieve him ten times where I should believe them once. 
Q. And 3*011 don’t know them? A. No, sir; I don’t know 
them. I would hear the testimony of a man whom I knew 
against those I didn’t know. Would you take the testimony 
of a man wdiom you didn’t know against the testimony of a 
friend whom 3*011 knew? 
Q. I am asking you questions now. I want to know whether 
you would believe Hecht? A. No. I have served as clerk in 
a criminal court. I have seen the same men telling the same 
story in different ways and I don’t believe they necessarily lied. 
Q. The question was whether you had ever heard that he 
was suspected of unsoundness of mind? A. I never did. 
Q. To which you reply no? A. I do. 
Q. Now, 1 call 3*our attention to the fact that several people 
have suspected him of unsoundness of mind, and I ask you 
whether 3*011 would consider them as truthful or worthless? A, 
I should set them down as worthless. 
Q. Now I ask if Mr. Hecht — 
Gov. Butler. Let him answer the question. 2970 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. You are taking considerable of jour time. 
Gov. Butler. Never mind about that. You have put a 
question to the witness; let him answer it. 
The Witness. What I have to say is this: I know Dr. I)ix- 
well thoroughly. 1 don’t know these other people. I don’t 
place implicit confidence in the judgment of what you call ex- 
perts. I have had an experience of 40 years on that subject. 
I have known men sent to insane asylums on the oaths of doc- 
tors, who were as sound as you are to-day. I have seen an 
immense amount of injury done by them. I know Dr. Dixwell 
so well that it would take a large amount of evidence to con- 
vince me he had the slightest aberration of mind. 
Q. Now let us come back to the question. Yrou don’t know 
but Mr. Hecht is just as reliable as Dr. Dixwell? A. I don’t. 
Q. Now if he was just-as reliable as Dr. Dixwell and he had 
occasion to say Dr. Dixwell was wrong in his mind, wouldn’t 
that raise a suspicion in your mind ? A. Not the least. 
Q. Wouldn’t it set you upon \'our inquiry? A. It might 
set me upon inquiry, but it wouldn’t raise suspicion. 
Q. Now, suppose, added to the testimony of Mr. Hecht you 
should have the testimony of Mr. Frothingham whom you didn’t 
know, but who may be just as trustworthy as Dr. Dixwell, 
would his testimony raise suspicion in your mind? A. No, 
sir ; not in the least. 
Q. Wouldn’t it put you on your inquiry? A. That would 
depend upon the word of the men. 
Q. But 1 sajq suppose they were just as good as Dr. Dixwell ? 
A. If they were just as good as Dr. Dixwell it would put me 
upon my inquiry. 
Q. Now wait a moment. Suppose you had the testimony of 
three physicians at the medical school and one in college with 
him who had known him for fifteen years, all equally reliable as 
Dr. Dixwell, who should say he was of unsound mind, and 
should give instances of exaggerated stories he had told them, 
wouldthat put you further upon your inquiry? A. It might 
put me upon mv inquiry. 
Q. Now, let us take this and, added to all that has been 
said, this: that Dixwell should testify that he dissected two 
babies a week at the Harvard Medical School for a period of 
three years, when as a matter of fact, shown by other testimony, 
there were no babies there, — would that lead you to suspept? 
Gov. BuTfcEk. 1 object to the question, 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2971 
Mr. Brown. I put it as a hypothetical case. 
Gov. Butler. You have no right to put it as a hypothetical 
case. 
Mr. Brown. I think I have. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon ; you undertook to put in what 
Dixwell said about the school-teachers. 
The Chairman. That was rejected. 
Gov. Butler. The difficulty is, we had a witness yesterday 
who saw babies there. 
Mr. Biown. He didn’t see two a week. 
Gov. Butler. He was there only once. 
Mr. Brown. He said he had dissected two a week. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon. 
Mr. Brown. Never mind, I will go on. [Q. to witness.] 
Now, Mr. Phillips, when a man irf sober earnest, with a great 
deal of decision and determination, persists in an assertion that 
lie accomplished an impossible thing, do you regard that as 
evidence of unsoundness of mind? 
Gov. Butler. I object. There is no evidence that dissect- 
ing two babies a week would be impossible. 
Mr. Brown. 1 haven’t said anything about babies. You 
are always harping upon the babies. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; and I shall continue to for a good while. 
Mr. Brown. You won’t be doing any mischief as long as 
you do that. 
Gov. Butler. There is no evidence that he has asserted an 
impossible thing. That is no test against Dr. Dixwell. It 
makes no test against him. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, that is a hypothetical case, com- 
ing within the rule laid down by His Excellency', yesterday. 
That is the reason I withdrew the first question and made this, 
because His Excellency7 has put himself upon record in favor of 
the use of hypothetical cases. Now, we all know Mr. Phillips 
very well. Mr. Phillips has expressed himself very7 strongly7 and 
with a great deal of feeling about Dr. Dixwell, and I want to see 
what will change his opinion, and I will let the committee draw 
their own inference from it. And so, I put a hypothetical case. 
Gov. Butler. The only hypothetical case, yesterday', was 
this: If a man should say the moon was made of green cheese 
—that is the only' one. 
Mr. Brown. I will put the same one. 
Gov. Butler. No. Now, to show how utterly wrong this 2972 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
man is, I said that hypothetical cases were never put to wit- 
nesses upon the question of truth and veracity. 
Mr. Brown. This man is upon his character for truth and 
veracity. 
Gov. Butler. Let me proceed without explanations. No 
hypothetical case is ever put to a witness upon truth and ve- 
racity. No hypothetical case is ever put to a case of insanity, 
except to a man who is set up as an expert in insanity ; and 
then you can put a hypothetical case in insanity. But to plain 
men you don’t seek to control their judgment by pitting a 
hypothetical case. That is the rule laid down yesterday, and I 
reiterate it. 
Mr. Brown. I would like to have you find where you laid 
down the rule yesterday. 
Gov. Butler. It is the rule of common-sense, and governs 
everywhere. 
The Chairman. The committee will vote upon it. 
Mr. Brown. I will withdraw that and make another. [To 
witness.] If Dr. I)ixwrell, in apparently sober earnestness, 
should persist in saying that he had made full investigation, and 
had an opportunity to judge, or such an opportunity as science 
would give him,— should persist in saying that the moon was 
made of green cheese,— would that affect your judgment? A. 
I should say he was crazy’. 
Mr Brown. That is all upon that subject. 
Gov. Butler. Don’t answer so quickly, Mr. Phillips. I 
wanted to object to that question, because I insist still that if 
a man persists in breaking all the rules, that you cannot put a 
hypothetical question in this class of testimony, and thereupon 
he proceeds directly to put one and get an answer, which would 
cause a reprimand if he stood in a decent court of justice. 
Mr. Brown. And presented by counsel of that same char- 
acter. 
The Chairman. We have got so used to those things 1 don’t 
suppose it is necessary to take notice of it. 
Gov. Butler. What is the use of taking notice? You can- 
not reprimand him here. You are not a court of justice. 
The Chairman. You didn’t refer to the committee at all? 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon. I said the chairman cannot 
reprimand him. I said if it was in a court of justice. 
The Chairman. You didn’t have any reference to the com- 
mittee at all. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2973 
Gov. Butler. I have insisted that the committee should not 
give an opinion of counsel and cannot reprimand him. 
The Chairman. 1 think the committee should keep order 
over the counsel as well as the room. 
Gov. Butler. They may keep order among counsel, but they 
should not vent their private spite upon counsel. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) You never heard anybody call in 
question Dr. Dixwell’s reputation for truth and veracity ? A. 
Never ; never, i read it in the report in the papers of the pro- 
ceedings before this committee, and I laughed at it. 
Q. Have you made any inquiry as to what his reputation is 
for truth and veracity? A. I should think it an insult to a 
friend of a dozen years to make stick an inquiry, and I have 
never insulted Dr. Dixweil. 
Q. And you feel toward Dr. Dixweil, notwithstanding all that 
has been said, that, you wouldn’t inquire about among his friends 
to see if these men have been telling the truth? A. No, sir; 
nothing said up here would affect me. 
Q. The testimony under oath wouldn’t affect you? A. I 
haven’t seen a witness here a word of whose testimony 1 would 
believe under oath as quick as 1 would Dr. Dixweil. 
Q. Consequently you have made no inquiry? A. 1 saw 
him within a few weeks ; since this began. 
Q. Since the first of June? A, I think it was the very end 
of May.; I forget the precise day. 1 think about the end of 
May. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) I haven’t spoken to you upon this 
subject before? A. No, sir. 
Testimony of Agnes Calder (recalled). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Mrs. Calder, 1 have a memorandum of a conversation,— 
a memorandum that you took back certain charges which you 
have made here at the state house, and also made in Tewksbury,—- 
made by Dr. Lathrop on the 13th of April. A. No, sir. i have 
never taken back a thing I have said ; not a thing. No board 
of charity, and no soul,' has ever asked me a question about it, 
and I have never taken back a thing. I saw it in the paper. 
Q. Wait a moment. You saw it in the paper. Now, if the 
committee please, I want to ask this witness,—the committee 
will remember that Miss Calder testified here she had made 2974 
CIIABITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
representations to the authorities, and it was made a part of the 
charges which the board of state charities sent to the governor 
—and Dr. Lathrop brought in what he claimed as a record 
that she had recanted. I am going to ask to show, first: that 
Dr. Lathrop wasn’t the physician there at all when the woman 
was kicked, and the mark of the boot was found on her, and that 
the very statement made in this memorandum is false, this mem- 
orandum being got up for the occasion. 
Mr. Brown. Let me see that. Governor, please. [Gov. 
Butler handed Mr. Brown the book.] 
Gov. Butler. The memorandum being put into the book for 
the occasion on the 13th of April this year. 
The Chairman. What is that book? 
Gov. Butler. That is the book Dr. Lathrop produced here 
as his medical record of what happened in Tewksbury. Then 
in the trustees’ record— 
Mr. Brown. 1 don’t understand, Governor, what you claim 
this to be. 
Gov. Butler. 1 claim that this is a record of an examination 
made by Dr. Lathrop, of Miss Agnes Calder, as he says, put in 
here on the 13th of April last. 
Mr. Brown. At the time when she made these charges at 
the institution? 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. What I wanted to get at, is, when do you claim 
that that record of Dr. Lathrop was made? 
Gov. Butler. [Beading.] “ The above note was made 
when Miss Calder was discharged, or about that time, April 
13, 1883. William H. Lathrop.” 
Mr. Brown. That is when he wrote it, April 18th. When 
do you claim to understand h<* made that memorandum? 
Gov. Butler. When he wrote it. 
Mr. Brown. When did he write it? 
Gov. Butler. About that time. I don’t care when. 
Mr. Brown. When do you claim Miss Calder was dis- 
charged ? 
Gov. Butler. I was trying to ascertain. I am going to 
contradict every word if I can. 
The Chairman. Do you remember whether this was spread 
upon the records? 
Gov. Butler. I don’t know whether it was spread upon the 
records or not. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2975 
Mr. Brown. This is the first time it has been referred to. 
Gov. Butler. Whether it was or not won’t make any differ- 
ence. I first examined Trustee Nourse about Miss Calder. 
I)r. Lathrop 1 examined carefully whether he saw the bruises, 
and he said the bruises, the black-and-blue spots, came after 
death. And he saw Miss Calder, and she said she didn’t see 
the body until after death. And then I called for his medical 
record, and he produced it with this note in it, but it hadn’t 
been produced until to-day. I am going to show that a false 
record was kept there for the purpose of screening the manage- 
ment, if I can be permitted. 1 can contradict every word of it. 
The Chairman. If this has been put into the case it seems 
to me it is competent to contradict it by this witness. 
Gov. Butler. Whether it is part of the case or not, it is 
part of the books of the institution which I can show to be 
false. 
The Chairman. On that point I think 3*011 should have 
shown it before. 
Gov. Butler. How could 1? How did I know that this 
book would be brought in by Dr. Lathrop ; and it never was 
brought in until he was on the stand, and he lied about it. How 
did I know that before he was called? 
The Chairman. If that book was brought here and no no- 
tice taken — 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon ; I didn’t have m3’ attention 
called to it until Dr. Lathrop produced it himself, long after my 
case was completed. 
The Chairman. I think it is competent. 
Mr. Brown. I understand that His Excellency’s claim is 
this was made about the time when Miss Calder testified. 
Gov. Butler. That is not m3* claim. I will state the whole 
case. Agnes Calder was a nurse in the hospital. There was 
an insane woman, I forget her name, brought into the hospital 
veiy much injured. She said that Emmons French injured her. 
About that there was no dispute — that she was injured. That 
was some time in April, 1876, before Dr. Lathrop came there. 
Dr. Nichols was then the plrysician in attendance. She made 
complaint as she swore before 3*011 — Miss Calder did — both to 
Capt. Marsh and to others, and to the physician who was there 
then. Dr. Nichols. After she made that complaint she was no- 
tified that at the end of the month her services wouldn’t be 
longer required, and then Dr. Lathrop had been appointed pin*- 2976 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
sician. He gave her a recommendation to go out, and she went 
out on the first day of July, 1876. She came immediately here 
to the state house and made complaint that this woman had 
been kicked to death. That complaint was sent for investiga- 
tion to Tewksbury. Then Dr. Lathrop, dealing with facts 
that took place when he was n’t there, put in his medical history 
this statement, about which I cross examined him, that Miss 
Calder had taken it all back. Mr. Nourse, in his letter in rela- 
tion to the investigation, which he made in one day, and signed 
a letter which he didn’t write — which is a favorite trick of that 
class of state officers — then said that Mrs. Calder took all back 
which she said. 1 am now asking to prove to this committee, in 
rebuttal of that testimony of Dr. Lathrop. which was that the 
black-and blue spots were those which occurred after death— 1 
propose to prove that there isn’t a word of that true. This is 
the memorandum 1 propose to contradict:— [Reading.] 
“ Mrs. Calder did not. know where the spots were. Did not change 
patient’s 
% 
I suppose that is, changed patient’s dress. 
Did not lay her out. Did not see her dead. Did not know on 
what occasion she saw the spots. Woman was very crazy and very 
feebl e.'1 
I guess that is the only true thing here. 
“ Miss < 'alder never related her story to any hired help or physi- 
cian." 
Then he puts down at the bottom of that: 
“ Above note was made, when Miss Calder was discharged, or 
about that time, April 13, 1883.” 
* 
The. Chairman. 1 think you can contradict Dr. Lathrop by 
this witness. 
Gov. Butler. This is the memorandum which he swore to. 
The Chairman. Unless the committee think otherwise, I 
think it is competent. 
[The committee voted to admit the question.] 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Now, Miss Calder, I want to fix 
some dates. When was it that that woman whom you swore to 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2977 
before as having the prints on her body of Mr. Emmons 
French's boot,—when did that happen? A. J left in June, and 
this was in the winter some time ; f don’t know* what part of 
the winter, but it was before Dr. Lathrop ever saw the institu- 
tion. 
Q, Some time in the winter, and you left in June? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. And you left the last day of June? A. I left the first 
day of July. I got notice the first day of June to leave the 
first day of July. 
Q. And you left? A. Yes, sir; 1 left the first day of 
July. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) What year? A. 1876. 
The Chairman. The testimony of page 276 is that she left 
on the first day of July, 1877/ 
Mr. Brown. She shifted it a year. 
Gov. Butler.* Tt don’t matter. This complaint was dealt 
with in the investigation. 
Mr. Brown. Where do you find any evidence of that ? 
Gov, Butler. Hand me that report. It is just as bad to 
state what you don’t know to be true as to state what is false. 
At the special meeting, April, 1876; you will find it on this 
book. I Handing him a book. | 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) It was the winter before you left? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Where do you find the April special meeting? 
The heading of that meeting says September 4th. 
Goa*. Butler. Yes, sir; you will find it in two places. You 
may have this one, if you would rather. [Turning over the 
pages.] 
Mr. Brown. I want to be right. You may take your 
choice. 
Gov. Butler. This is April 4th, special meeting, and it is 
at the time when this report was made. So we fix the time. 
Q. Now, you left in July? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) What year? A. Tt is six years 
ago. You knowr how long. 
Q. Seventy-seven? A. It is six years this July. 
Q. That makes it seventy-seven. You stated before if was 
seventy-six? A. I didn’t state anything about seventy-six or 
seventy-two. Don’t you state anything but the truth. 
Gov. Butler. You will make it much worse. 2978 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Now, whenever this was. It was the winter before 
when this woman was kicked? A. Yes, sir; it was. 
Q. And you saw, as you told us before — I only want it for 
identification — the mark of the boot upon her side ? A. Yes, 
sir; I did. And 1 laid her out with my own hands. It was a 
mark right here, and she was abused in every way. Oil! 
Said I — 
Mr. Brown. Never mind that. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Was she brought into the hospital 
alive after she was kicked? A. Yes, sir; in a basket. 
Q. Did you see these marks on her before she died ? A. 
Yes, sir ; I did. 
Q. Did }’ou lay her out? A. Yes, sir; 1 laid her out with 
my own bands. 
Q. And there were other spots, as you told us before? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And this woman was a crazy woman ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And very feeble? A. She wasn’t such a feeble woman. 
She was out in the yard the day before. 
Q. Now, then, when that was done, who‘was the physician 
at the hospital? A. Dr. Nichols. Miss Nellie gave the medi- 
cine. and Dr. Nichols was there to oversee. 
Q. Did you call Dr. Nichols’ attention to it? A. 1 did, 
and showed him those places on her. 
Q. Now, then, have you ever told any different story than 
this to anybody? A. No, sir; I didn’t to anybody. 
Q. Did you call the attention of Mr. Thomas Marsh to it? 
A. I told Mr. Thomas J. Marsh — young Thomas — 
Q. We will call him Thomas for short. 
Mr. Brown. Now wait a moment. This isn’t in contra- 
diction. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, it is. 
Mr. Brown. The committee said 3011 might contradict Dr. 
Lathrop. There has been no ruling upon an attempt to contra- 
dict a man who hasn’t been on the witness-stand. 
Gov Butler. I will not attempt to contradict him. You 
will not pay attention, or else you forget. Now, the memo- 
randum made after Dr. Lathrop got there, and who didn’t know 
anything about it. is that Miss Calder never related her story to 
any hired help or physician. 
Mr. Brown. Is there any hired help or physician who has 
come here, except Dr. Lathrop, and stated anything? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2979 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Then you are not contradicting anybody. 
Gov. Butler. I am contradicting Dr. Lathrop’s statement* 
What is the matter with you ? 
Mr. Brown. Nothing ; nothing whatever. 
Gov. Butler. I will begin with this statement. 
Mr. Brown. It has been read once. 
Gov. Butler. I am going to ask the witness this : 
Q. Did you ever tell anybody" you didn’t know where the 
spots were? A. No, sir; I did not. 
Q. Did you ever tell anybody you didn’t change the patients’ 
clothes? A. No, sir ; I changed the patients’ clothes whenever 
jt was needed. 
Q. Did you ever tell anybody you didn’t lay her out? A. 
No, sir ; I never told a soul in the world. 
Q. Did you ever tell anybody* y*ou didn’t see her dead ? A- 
No, sir; I did not. 
Q. Did you ever tell anybody you didn’t know on what occa- 
sion you saw the spots? A. No, sir; I never told anybody 
such a thing. 
Q. You have already" stated that yrou related it to Thomas 
Marsh? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And Dr. Nichols? A. And Dr. Nichols and Thomas 
Marsh. I went and called Mr. French, and asked him what was 
matter; and Mr. French said — 
Mr. Brown. Wait a moment. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You did relate it to Mr. French? A. 
Yes, sir; and he told me to mind my own — 
Mr. Brown. Wait a moment. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Did you tell Thomas Marsh you would 
complain of it at the State House as soon as you got down here ? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he come with you? A. Yes, sir; he followed me 
into the State House. 
Q. Did he come up here? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Since you made that statement at the State House has 
anybody from Tewksbury-, or any officers of the State asked you 
about this matter, until you came here? A. No, sir; not a 
soul. 
Q. Are y-ou a member of the church at Tremont Temple ? A. 
Yes, sir; I have been a member of it for eighteen years. 2980 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Miss Calder—I believe it is Miss; isn’t it? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. When did you leave Tewksbury? A. I told you when 1 
left Tewksbury. What in the world do you ask it again for? 1 
answered it half a dozen times. Didn’t I tell you 1 left it six 
years ago the first day of July ? 
Q. The first day of July? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. 1883? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Are you perfectly certain about it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You don’t want to change that? A. No, sirs 1 don’t 
want to change that, for if 1 changed it, it would be'wrong. I 
don’t want to have it said, when 1 die, that 1 went up here 
and told a story to you or anybody else. ! want, when 1 die, 
to go to heaven. 1 don’t want to tell a story. 1 don’t get fifty 
dollars a day for telling a story. You can do that. 
Q. Now, under that solemn situation, Miss Calder, and after 
a good deal of consideration, you are perfectly certain, then, 
that you left there— A. Yes, sir ; 1 can show you the books. 
Q. —On the first day of July, 1877? A. Yhs, sir. 
Q. No doubt about that? A. Yes, sir. When I left there, 
it was six years ago the first of July. 
Q. That makes it 1877? A. Yes, sir; you know a great 
deal better than I do. You are a lawyer, and 1 am nothing but 
a servant girl. 
Q. Cannot you reckon back six years? A. Yes, sir, I 
can ; because I am not so foolish as that. 
Q. 1877 ; and you mean to tell this committee that it was 
on the first of July, 1877? A. 1 didn’t tell them it was on the 
first of July, 1877. 
Q. What did you tell them? A. 1 told them 1 left there 
six years ago on the first day of July. 
Q. You could not tell the committee that, when you left the 
institution on the first day of July, 1877, Dr. Lathrop wasn’t 
there? A. I told you he was in the employ of the institution 
when 1 left, and he wasn’t there when the woman was killed. 
Cannot you understand that? I am afraid of you, anyway, 
you look so cross. 
Q. 1 will look more pleasant. A, I hope you won’t tell 
anything but the truth. I heard you tell many things yesterday 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2981 
that wore not true. Do von think Mrs. Marsh didn’t go into 
the baggage-room? She did. 
Q. You want to suppress your willingness. A. I want to 
tell the truth. 
Q. Now, Miss Calder, have you testified in this investigation 
that, when you left the institution, that Dr. Lathrop wasn’t con- 
nected with it? A. No, sir; it was another dough-head. I 
don’t know who it was ; I forget his name. 
Q. You have never testified that, when you left, Dr. Lathrop 
was not connected with the institution ? A. No, sir. 
Q. And if you did so testify, and if there is any record of 
that fact, it is a mistake? A. Didn’t I tell you so? Didn’t I 
tell you he gave me a letter ? 
Q. Wait a moment; don’t get excited. A. I am not ex- 
cited ; but I don’t wTant you to tell anything but the truth. 
Q. You are certain of that? A. Of course I 
ain’t so big a fool as not to tell the truth. 
Q. You don’t mean to say you are not partial that way? 
A. Dr. Lathrop— Didn’t I tell him here to his head that he 
was there? 
Q. When did Dr. Lathrop come to the institution? A. He 
came some time in the spring ; I don’t know. 
Q. In the spring of what year? A. The same year that I 
left. 
Q. The same year which }Tou left in Jul}7, he came there in 
the spring? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And about how long before- you left, — two or three 
months? A. Yes, sir ; a month or two. 
Q. Not more than three months? A. It could not be more 
than that. It was in the winter the woman was hurt, and 
he came there after that. 
Q. It was in the winter before you left that the woman was 
hurt? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And if you left on the first day of July, 1877, it was in 
the winter of 1876 that the woman was hurt? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You won’t take that back for anything or change it? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. Because that is God’s truth? A. Yes, sir; because 
the woman was hurt in the winter. 
Q. Now, you don’t want to change that on reflection ? A.. 
No, sir; I have told it always. 
Q. That is solid, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir. 2982 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Can you read ? A. Yes, sir ; I can read. 
Q. You can ? A. Yes, sir; I can. You have had impu- 
dence enough about it. 
Q. Won’t you read, say, that first column ? [Handing her a 
newspaper.] A. No, sir; not for you nor no other man in the 
house; so you can rely upon that. Go down to Tremont 
Temple and ask the deacons whether 1 can read. 
The Chairman. I believe it has been settled we cannot com- 
pel anybody to read. 
Mr. Brown. T know we cannot compel, but 1 supposed 1 
could induce her. 
The Witness. No, sir; }rou cannot induce me, nor no other 
man that looks like you. 
Q. You caniiQt be induced to give us an exhibition? A. 
No, sir ; not to you. 
Q. Where are you now employed? A. I am employed 
where I am. The lawyer that comes for me knows where I am ; 
it is no matter to you. You have nothing to do with it. 
Gov. Butler. Your whole life was examined into. 
Mr. Brown. She won’t be likely to get away from here until 
she answers my question. 
The Chairman. You ma}' answer. The governor will 
object to anything improper. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) I want to know where von live. A. 
You know where I live. 
Q. Are you employed in some place? A. Yes, sir ; where 
I have been employed since 1 left Tewksbury. 
Q. Now, madam, who are associated with you there? A. 
Who are associated? 
Q. Give me the names of some ladies? A. Every lady 
that was there when I left is gone. 
Q. Who has been there, at the institution, and 
associated with you since you were on the witness-stand in the 
early part of this investigation? A. A great many ladies. 
Q. Give us the names of some of them associated with you ? 
A. AVell, there is Mrs.— she is now in Europe, the matron 
that was there then. 
Q. What was her name? A. Her name was Brewster. 
Q. Brewster? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What was her full name? A. I don’t know. 
.Q. Mrs. Brewster? A. Yes, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
2983 
Q. Who else? A. The matron that came there Sunday 
night. 
Q. Well, can you think of the name of anybody who was in 
that institution and has been there since you were here on 
the witness-stand before ? A. Since I have been here before. 
Well, there was Miss Brewster and Miss Drake. I forget the 
seamstress. They are every one gone and left. 
Q. Haven’t you repeatedly stated to Miss Brewster and 
other ladies there, that 3’ou could not read, and asked them to 
read to you the report of this investigation? A. No, sir ; they 
never have read the investigation to me since I have been there. 
Q. And you never called upon them to read to you because 
you could notread? A. No, sir; Mrs. Brewster was never 
asked to read to me in this world. 
Q. Did you ever call upon any ladies there to read to you ? 
A. No, sir. A lady never read to me since I have been in the 
institution. Some of the children might take the papers to 
read it. Now, don’t tell anything but the truth ; and nobody 
knows anything but what they see for themselves, and know 
themselves. 
Q. But you can read? A. Yes, sir. Where it came from 
in the first place, Mr. Tom Marsh came early in the morning to 
get my pay, and — 
Q. Wait a moment. Now, won’t you read a sentence? A- 
No, sir ; not a word. 
Q. Not a syllable? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now if you could read, would you? A. No matter 
whether I would read that or not. I will not do it for you. 
Q. Won’t you do it for the governor? A. No, sir; the 
governor is more of a gentleman than to ask me. 
Q. He wouldn’t ask impossibilities of you, would he? A. 
He knows — 
Q He knows you cannot? A. The governor don’t know 
whether I can read or not. What does he know about it? 
Q. I know you cannot. A. You don’t know anything 
about it, What do you know about it? I have been in one 
class for fifteen years in the Tremont Temple sabbath school, 
and anybody will tell you I know how to read, and I an- 
swer as many questions as any one else. .So now you can fix up 
your old face. Well, yon are the homeliest man I ever see. 
Q. Now if you could read, and the governor should ask you— 2984 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Is the whole of this day to be used up in this 
way? I submit to the committee. 
The Chairman. I don’t think I would pursue that any fur- 
ther, Mr. Brown. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Now I want to ask you— A. I 
suppose you got in company with Miss Brewster. She is like 
yourself. She was turned away from the institution. I suppose 
you got in her compan}T. 
Q. Now 1 want to ask you again if you are perfectly certain 
of the day of that woman’s death. She died in the winter be- 
fore you left in July ? A. Yes, sir ; she did. • 
Mr. Brown. That is all; I am greatl}' obliged to }rou. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) And that was before Dr. Lathrop 
came into the institution? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
Gov. Butler. I find this Agnes Calder’s name for the last 
time in the report, as paid, in the report of ’76, paid a part of 
a year. I find in the records of the institution that she was paid 
up to July first, 1876. 
Mr. Brown. Oh, but she denies that; she saj7s she left six 
years ago. Probably there has been a fraud at the auditor’s 
office ! 
Gov. Butler. If that is proper to say, I am content; and 
her last payment was $22.14; she left July first, ’76, and was 
not there since. Now I want to read from the trustees’ record? 
Mr. Brown. What is the date ? 
Gov. Butler. She was never there afterwards in the world. 
It is under the date of, — it gives the date in it. 
Mr. Brown. The date of the meeting? 
Gov. Butler. The date of the meeting, — it was a special 
meeting in 1876. 
Mr. Brown. September 4, I think you will find, if you turn 
to an earlier page. 
Gov. Butler. That is of no consequence. [Reading.] 
“ The complaints of Agnes Calder against Emmons French, of bad 
treatment of the insane, particularly of Mrs. Flemming ”— and that 
is the woman’s name — “having been carefully heard, July 31, by 
her own statements and that of Drs Lathrop and Marsh, Mrs. Ward- 
well and Mrs. Emmons French, were deemed by the board ol inspec- 
tors to be unfounded. Charles B. Marsh, Clerk.” 1883.] 
HOUSE-No. 300. 
2985 
That is the last entry on the page. I now want to call Dr. 
Talbot. 
Mr. Brown. Let me take that one moment. [Beferring to 
inspectors’ record.] 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, the governor has only read a 
part; the date of the meeting appears to be September 4, ’76. 
Gov. Butler. September 4, ’76, was the time the report was 
made. 
Mr. Brown. When the meeting was held. 
Gov. Butler. When the meeting was held; it says the ex- 
amination was made Jul}' 31. 
Mr. Brown. Dr. Lathrop, I see by the record, page 2155, 
went to the institution Oct. 1, ’75. 
Gov. Butler. But was appointed physician — 
Mr. Brown. October 1, 1875. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Well, look at page 2155 of the record. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me, now, I don’t want to look ; I 
know all about it. Dr. Lathrop went there, as he testifies, in 
1875 ; he was appointed resident physician, and that is what 
she means b}r his being the physician, resident physician, in 
March, after March, 1876, because then the law was passed 
making a resident physician. 
The Chairman. It is all in the record, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. It is all in the record ; we know all about it. 
Testimony of I. Tisdale Talbot (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Now, Doctor, you are some officer, and if so, what, in 
the Boston University of Medicine? A. Boston University 
School of Medicine ; I am the dean. 
Q. Have you received bodies from Tewksbury ? A. I have 
never received them personally at all; I have had the accounts 
of them come to me, which I have had verified, and have paid 
the bills. 
Q. And to whom did you pay the bills? A. I paid them 
by check to Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. 
Q. How many bodies have you received from Tewksbury in 
the last — since your college has been running? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butjler. We have been ali over this once, and the only CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
2986 
reason I called this gentleman was because Dr. Hastings could 
not testify, she not being the proper officer. 
Mr. Brown. Then we have not been over it, if she could not 
testify'. 
Gov. Butler. She could not testify to the number, but the 
matter was ruled in. 
The Chairman. Ruled in that the book might be shown. 
Mr. Brown. That it might be shown by the books ; that is 
all. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; suppose I can show it by the 
man that carried them there ; wouldn’t that be just as good? 
Mr. Brown. This man doesn’t say he carried them there. 
Gov. Butler. The man that paid for them. 
Mr. Brown. This is the position of this matter. This don’t 
contradict anybody. 
Gov. Butler. How do you know ? 
Mr. Brown. The only' report which His Excellency has al- 
lowed to go into this case is the report of the trustees of this 
institution, that 585 bodies — 
Gov. Butler. We went all over that vesterdav and spent 
half— 
Mi\ Brown. Were delivered between the first of October, 
’73, and the first of October, ’82 ; but the report which shows 
what of these bodies went to this institution, and what went to 
other institutions, His Excellency has excluded. 
Q. Did you bring the books with you, as you were ordered? 
A. I don’t know, sir, what books you refer to. We have no 
books for this special thing. I have been over all the accounts 
for the last ten years, and have a statement that I am prepared 
to swear to of the bodies delivered and the amounts paid. I 
supposed that was what the committee desired to know. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we will see. Go on, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Now, this does not contradict anybody. The 
report which I have offered, and which His Excellency' has en- 
deavored to get excluded, and has so far succeeded, does make 
a statement, and if that report was in evidence I should be per- 
fectly’ willing to waive my objection ; but until that report is in 
evidence, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I say that this is not 
in rebuttal in any way, shape or manner. 
The Chairman. The lady'doctor yesterday testified that 148, 
if I remember, bodies were delivered to this institution. 
Mr. Brown. She could not tell within what time. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2987 
The Chairman. And the question, then, was how much 
money was paid, and the objection was that the books should 
be produced to show that. 
Gov. Butler. Now we have got the man that paid it. 
The Chairman. Yes ; I think 3 011 can show what he paid. 
Gov. Butler. Yes ; we bad it all over, yesterday. So much 
time must be taken, of course. 
Mr. Brown. I shall insist on my objection unless the gov- 
ernor will allow the report, which is in the hands of the chair- 
man, to be put in evidence. If he will allow that, I will make 
no objection. He says this is for the purpose of verifying that 
report. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. It is for the purpose of verifying something 
never in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. That is what he said yesterday ; I don’t know 
what he will say to-day. 
The Chairman. I suppose it is to contradict the 495 bodies. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. How does it contradict it? 
Gov. Butler. We argued that yesterday, and the committee 
allowed it in ; I hadn’t got the right witness, that is all. 
Mr. Brown. Between certain dates. 
The Chairman. From October 1st up to last September. 
Mr. Brown. From Oct. 1, 1873, to Oct. 1, 1882, nine 
years. 
The Chairman. Didn’t Dr. Hastings confine her testimony 
to that date ? 
Mr. Brown. Her testimony was not confined to these dates ; 
I objected to it, but finally allowed it to go in, because I saw 
that it must finally be rejected. 
Gov. Butler. The committee ruled it in after full argument, 
}Testerday, in which I stated the ground. 
Mr. Brown. I shall insist upon m3’objection, Mr. Chairman, 
unless His Excellency is willing the statement should go in. 
Gov. Butler. I am not going to make any bargains ; you 
need not tr3r that again on me. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t expect you to make any bargains. 
Gov. Butler. Not a bit. 
[The question was admitted.] 
Q. Now, sir, how many bodies have 3Tou received? A. I 2988 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
have made a memorandum, here, directly form the books, from 
November, 1873, up to the present time. As I understand the 
question, it is up to October, 1882. 
Q. No, sir; up to the present time, first. A. Up to the 
present time 148 bodies have been received by the Boston Uni- 
versity School of Medicine. 
Q. How much did you pay for them? A $2,359. 
Q. How much apiece? A. It was about $16. 
Q. A little over or a little under? A. That was the sum. 
Q. I don’t ask anything but figures, now. A. $16 was the 
price. 
Q. $16? A. That was paid. 
Q. And that was paid to Thomas J. Marsh? A. Yes. sir. 
Q. Precisely so. Was one of the grandchildren of the 
Marshes educated in jmu r college ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of this committee. 
The Chairman. That seems to me to be new. 
Mr. Brown. It is entirely new. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; no, sir. 
Mr. Brown. And not pertinent, either, to this inquiry. 
Gov. Butler. All I can say is, that this is one that the old 
gentleman Marsh forgot to tell us of; — of the grandsons he 
had got educated, and paid for it with the bodies of paupers. 
Mr. Brown. lie was not asked what grandsons wei’e edu- 
cated. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, I did, and went all through his family. 
Mr. Brown. He was asked what he educated ; no evidence 
that he assisted in the education of these children. 
Gov. Butler. The bodies are the best evidence. 
The Chairman. The committee must settle it. 
Gov. Butler. [ To the witness.] That is all with you, sir. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Doctor, by whom were these books kept? A. For the 
last five years they have been kept by myself. 
Q. By yourself? A. Yes. 
Q. Prior to that, by whom were they kept? A. By the 
registrar. 
Q. When was your institution chartered, organized? A. 
It was chartered with the Boston University in 1869 ; the school 
was organized in 1873. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2989 
Q. 1873? A. It was united with the New England Female 
Medical College, by act of the legislature, in 1874. 
Q. Prior to 1874, the medical part of your institution was 
known as the New England Female Medical College? A. No, 
sir ; prior to 1873. 
Q. Prior to 1873. A. The school which is now the Bos- 
ton University School of Medicine was the New England 
Female Medical College. 
Mr. Brown. Governor, do you intend to put that in? [Re- 
ferring to memorandum produced by the witness.] 
Gov. Butler. I am content it shall go in evidence, sir. 
Mr. Brown. What is that? 
Gov. Butler. I am content it shall go in evidence. 
Mr. Brown. I want to know whether you intend to offer 
it in evidence? 
Gov. Butler. It only covers the same thing we have. 
Mr. Brown. You will let me see it. 
Gov. Butler. With pleasure. [Handing the paper to Mr. 
Brown.] I only want to show how many bodies he received; 
and he received nine last June ; so they do move bodies in hot 
weather. 
The Witness. I may say the bills are sent in, but they are 
not received in warm weather ; the bills are not sent in till some 
time afterwards. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Then you don’t know when you 
received them, only when you paid the bills ? A. Only when 
I paid the bills. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) And you don’t know anything about 
when the bodies were received? A. I have no record of the 
receiving of the bodies. 
Q. Yrou simply know, and that memorandum simply shows, 
when you paid for them? A. Yres, sir. 
Q. But, in the several months there written, you paid the 
several sums of money set opposite them, respectively? A. 
Yes. 
Q. And that is all you know about it? 
Gov. Butler. For bodies. 
Mr. Brown. For bodies. 
The Witness. Yes, sir; they were verified by the demon- 
strator, who knew that the bodies had been received. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I offer this in evidence. 
The Chairman. What does it purport to be? 2990 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. A memorandum from the books, that is all, 
sir. I don’t object to its being in evidence. Put it right in. 
The Chairman. Give it to the stenographer. 
Mr. Brown. I will give it to the stenographer, and it can 
be inserted without reading it here. 
Gov. Butler. The doctor says nine bodies were paid for 
last June ; when they were delivered the Lord only knows. 
[The doctor’s memorandum was as follows.] 
Payments made, for Bead Bodies for Dissection 
Nov., 1873 $48 00 3 
Jan’y, 1874, 48 00 8 
April, 1874, 156 00 10 
Feb’y, 1875, 148 00 9 
• May, 1875 128 00 8 
Feb’y, 1876 192 00 12 
July, 1876 06 00 6 
Feb’y, 1877, 144 00 9 
May,. 1877, 176 00 11 
July, 1877, 48 00 3 
Jan’y,1878, . . . . . . 128 00 8 
April, 1878, 112 00 7 
Sept., 1878 82 00 2 
Mar., 1879, / 183 00 12 
June, 1879, 112 00 7 
May, 1880 128 00 8 
June, 1881, 176 00 11 
April, 1882, 160 00 10 
June, 1883, 144 00 9 
$2,359 00 148 
Testimony of James Skii.len (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Are you the janitor at Harvard College? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long have you been janitor, — at the Harvard Medi- 
cal School? A. Since the ninth of November, 1877, sir. 
Q. Who did you succeed,—Waterhouse? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Waterhouse is dead, isn’t he? A. I believe so. 
Q. Now, sir, do you receive all the bodies that come from 
Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now. sir, have you ever ke*pt any account, during all 
these years, of what bodies you have received? A. No, sir ; 
none. 1883 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
2991 
Q. Have you ever been instructed so to do? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, sir, before you were janitor you were in the hos- 
pital, were you not? A. Massachusetts General Hospital; yes, 
sir. 
Q. As an attendant. Did you know a young man by the 
name of Bartlett, who was a student there? A. Yes, sir; I 
did. 
Q. He was a student in the medical college? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. [To Mr. Brown.] The witness is yours, sir. 
Mr. B rows'. I have no questions to ask. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir. 
Testimony of Carl II. Kylander (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler 
Q. You live in Woburn, sir? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What country are you ? A. A Swede. 
Q. Did you know in his lifetime Charles II. Eklund? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever go in bathing with him in the water? A. 
I did. 
Did you see that etching on his breast? [Handing piece 
of skin to the witness.] 
Mr. Brown. Now, wait a moment, Mr. Witness, before you 
answer that. I should like to know what it is expected to prove 
by this. This has already been ruled out once, some time ago. 
Gov. Butler. On the ground that I was not putting in my 
evidence in rebuttal; that is the precise ground. 
Mr. Brown. Now, we come to the proper time. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. If it is ever proper at all; and I want to know, 
now, whether the committee purpose to allow the introduction 
of this testimony as the governor has outlined it on one or two 
occasions. 
The Chairman. This is the same piece that was shown Father 
Gigault. 
Mr. Brown. I understand that this is the same piece which 
was exhibited to Father Gigault. 
The Chairman. I think the governor should go forward and 
show how it is competent. 
Gov. Butler. On cross-examination of Father Gigault, I 
produced this piece of human skin to him and tried to identify 
it; I failed, and Mr. Brown made a great outcry that this was 2992 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
not the same man, because the “J” was a “T”, and, thereupon, 
I called a Swede who testified that that is the way a “J” is made in 
Sweden. Then they said that I hadn’t identified it. Then I 
shew that Charles J. Eklund was a pauper who died in Tewksbury. 
Then it was said it could not be this man, because the age on 
the register didn’t agree, and I undertook to prove that it did, 
and then the committee said I could not interrupt Mr. Brown’s 
evidence to put it in ; and I said, “ Very well, then, when it 
comes my turn I will.” And I am here, now, to give the last 
remaining link. Charles J. Eklund, with this tattoo on his 
breast, was a Swede ; was in this State and went to Tewksbury, 
and died there, and in some way or other his bod}' got skinned, 
because I have got the skin. Now, I want to show that the 
remains of people in Tewksbury — who died in Tewksbury,— 
are not interred, but are kept and are dealt with as merchandise. 
I have been told that the several pieces of skin that I have pro- 
duced, although a large majority of the bodies came from 
Tewksbury, were not identified as having been actually on a 
body from Tewksbury. I supply the missing link. I trace this 
on to the man living ; I trace him into Tewksbury ; I show him 
dying there ; and this piece of skin I trace from a man in 
Tewksbury, to meet the testimony that these remains have been 
treated according to the law. If there is any law I should like to 
have it pointed out, which allows human remains to be skinned 
anywhere ; but, if anybody undertakes to take them away from 
he place of burial, it is his duty, under the law, to see that they 
are not skinned and their skin floating around the country. 
That is the ground I offer it on. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, supposing Ilis Excellency could 
prove everything he says lie can, are we to sit here and investi- 
gate “somehow,” or are we to investigate this institution at 
Tewksbury ? lie says, “somehow or other,” he don’t know how, 
here is a piece of that man’s skin. 
Gov. Butler. I have not said I don’t know how. 
Mr. Brown. Are we to go fishing all over creation, through 
every possible avenue of evidence, to find how this thing came 
here? If Ilis Excellency can’t say to this committee, in the 
first place, directly, that he will trace that body to some place 
where it was delivered by this institution with the knowledge of 
the officers of this institution, that the body was then skinned 
and this piece taken, he don’t come within any rule which per- 
mits him to stand here for a moment and offer this testimonv. 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2993 
Now, let us see about this matter of Eklund. Assuming that 
that piece of skin came from the body of Charles J. Eklund. 
He died on the third day of August, 1879, I think it was ; 1877 
or 1879. The fact is uncontradicted and uniform throughout 
this case, that in the months of June, July and August, no body 
was ever sent to a medical institution, — uncontradicted. And, 
if His Excellency would allow to be put into this case the report 
which is in the hands of the chairman, His Excellency would 
find that in the very }'ear when he thinks this body went to 
Harvard Medical School there is a statement that no body 
went to the Harvard Medical School in that year prior to Oc- 
tober. Now, is this institution to be charged with every body 
which may have been stolen by persons not connected with it 
out of the graveyard ? I note one thing, and that is that al- 
though this matter was raised more than thirty days ago, His 
Excellency hasn’t had the confidence to go into that graveyard 
and see whether the body, yet remains there, or whether it has 
been taken away. He thought, and was very certain, that the 
body of Joseph Parks wa’n’t there, and consequently he went 
to the graveyard. Now, if he could say to this committee that 
the body of Charles J. Eklund isn’t in that graveyard, that 
would be a piece of evidence which would be entitled to some 
credit. 
Gov. Butler. Do you claim that it is? 
Mr. Brown. But all that he sa}'s is this : That somehow 
that piece of skin, once on the body of Charles Eklund, has been 
tanned, and is here. He don’t pretend that he can connect any 
officer of this institution with it, or any other public officer* 
Now, suppose,—let me suppose a case. Let me suppose that 
some person not connected with the institution who had a curi- 
osity to get that piece of tattooing, took occasion to take it with- 
out any knowledge of the officers of the institution, they using 
due diligence, would anybody pretend that they are to be held 
for it? Is this committee going to pretend that the man Chase’s 
storv about the billet of wood, which he says no human being 
knew but himself, a fraud practised by himself; a man who came 
upon the stand here, at the request of His Excellency, prac- 
tised a fraud upon the friends, and never let Captain Marsh or 
anybody else know anything about it — 
Gov. Butler. That is not the testimony. 
Mr. Brown. That is the testimomx 
The Chairman. Let us argue to-morrow and not to-day. 2994 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. Now, is anybody connected with the institution 
to be hurt In’ such evidence as that. It seems to me it will be 
very unfair ; and there is no pretence on the part of His Excel- 
lency that he can connect it. lie has got the two ends, as he 
claims. First, he has got the skin which was on the body of 
Eklund, and then, he is able to show, if you please, that that 
was the man who was at the institution. But there is a discrep- 
ancy with regard to his age, and there is very strong evidence 
tending to show that the man was buried lawfully ; properly 
buried. Now, I submit that he does not come within anvT rule 
whatever. In the first place, it is all new. 
Gov. Butler. When you began it was all old. 
Mr. Brown. lie says in the first place this : this is what I 
understand : In the first place, that the skin of a human being, 
the body of a human being is sacred, and with his consent and 
allowance no human being is ever going to be skinned, and the 
skins, those that he has not distributed as souvenirs of this case, 
are going to be decently interred hereafter; if there are any left 
that haven’t been distributed, they are going to be decently 
interred. Now, that is the position. He admits that he has 
not connected Tewksbury with the skin business in any way, 
shape or manner ; but he says, “ If you can only give me a chance, 
I will connect it somehow.” 
Gov. Butler. I haven’t admitted any such thing. 
Mr. Brown. No ; I think you did say that the public said 
3'ou had not, and you felt the force of that, and now you want 
to reinforce yourself. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t want to reinforce anything. 
Mr. Brown. Now, the question is whether this shall be 
allowed ? 
Gov. Butler. I am putting in such evidence as I think I 
have a right to. 
The Chairman. The committee will vote upon it. 
Gov. Butler. I want to say a word or two on the matter, 
and that is this, Mr. Chairman. First, they say that this body 
was not sent away from Tewksbury ; that it was buried there. 
I accept that declaration. 
The Chaiuman. Who says that, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Brown, within the last five minutes, in 
your hearing. 
The Chairman. He is not a witness in the case, as I know 
of. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
2995 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; he is the man conducting the 
case, along with the chairman. Now — 
The Chairman. And you conduct it on your side. 
Gov. Butler. I accept that theory of the defence ; and that 
is generally accepted by the court. Now, then, I agree it was 
decently buried, for the purposes of the argument. Then, they 
skinned it at Tewksbury, because I have got the skin. But I 
don’t believe that. I know to the contrary, as well as I can 
know by human evidence ; but it is in argument. Then, we 
have got a man with a whole skin into Tewksbury, and he 
should be either sent out of Tewksbury with a whole skin, or 
else he should be sent for the purposes of science, and his 
remains decently interred. That is clear. Now, when they 
say that they have taken proper care, I say they haven’t taken 
proper care, and that is the evidence. [Holding up the skin.] 
It is not a question whether it proves the whole case. 
It is a piece of circumstantial evidence, strong and 
conclusive, better than all the oaths of all the men in 
Tewksbury, with all the women thrown in, that had charge. 
It is like this: When a burglary was attempted to be 
committed, and the safe bored into to bore out the bolts, and a 
piece of the chisel was chipped off, like that [tearing off a cor- 
ner of a sheet of paper,] and left there, and when they found 
that little piece in the burglar’s kit when lie was arrested, and it 
fitted right into the drill as that piece fits in here, [illustrating 
with the paper],—that was a better piece of evidence to convict 
him, and did convict him, than everything else. Now, then, try 
this here. This man, apparently a good Catholic by his emblem, 
was in swimming with this on his breast. He went to Tewks- 
bury by the same name,—and names are prima facie evidence,— 
and this man [referring to witness] knows that he went to 
Tewksbury. When he went there the skin was on his breast; he 
died and his skin is now floating about; and that is evidence 
that I put in to contradict the testimony of good management 
and proper care of the living and the dead in Tewksbury ; and 
you are asked to infer everything in favor of a man who had the 
charge of these bodies, who stands to-day in contempt of your 
committee, and refuses to produce his record. “ In odium 
spoliatoris,”—in hatred of the wrong-doer who conceals facts, 
courts always make intendments against him. The question is 
for you, then, whether you will let the legislature know officially, 2996 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
of this piece of testimony, or whether you will conceal it from 
them. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, 1 understand that His Excel- 
lency now admits that this bod}’ was regularly buried. There 
is evidence tending to show that fact; and he says that if it was 
regularly buried, he will show it was buried without the skin. 
The Chairman. He claims that you admit it was regularly 
buried. 
Mr. Brown. I say there is evidence tending to show it was 
buried at the time the man died, and there is. Now, I say, be- 
fore he can undertake to go into this thing, he must show how 
that body came to the place where it was skinned. Somebody 
might have stolen it out of that graveyard, and we are not respon- 
sible. There is no provision of law and no funds out of which 
a police can watch that graveyard from one year’s end to the 
other, any more than there is any other graveyard ; and we 
have never been charged with an}’ such responsibility as that. 
The Chairman. The committee must vote. 
Gov. Butler. On tho contrary, I have put in evidence that 
Thomas J. Marsh was out there digging up bodies at night. 
[The evidence was rejected by a vote of 4 to 4, the chairman 
voting in the negative.] 
Gov. Butler. I will offer it again, by and by, when there is 
a fuller committee. [To the witness.] Stand down, sir. 
Testimony of John Murphy (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Murphy. A. Tewksbury, sir. 
Q. Live where, sir? A. In Tewksbury. 
Q. When did you go there, sir? A. The sixth of July, 
1882. 
Q. When did you come away from there? A. I came 
away, I believe, on the tenth. 
Q. Of what month? A. Of this month. 
Q. Did you know Charles Blackboy? A. I did, sir. 
Q. He was a colored boy, was he ? A. He was a colored 
man ; yes, sir. 
Q. When did he die ? 
Mr. Brown. Now I pray the judgment of the committee. 
The Chairman. What is the question? 
Mr. Brown. That is entirely new ; no reference to anything 
offered before; and I would like to know what it is offered for. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2997 
Gov. Butler. I cannot tell when you are talking. 
Mr. Brown. If you mean that he died as an inducement, I 
never heard that before. I don’t see why it is material. 
The Chairman. Let him answer that question, and we will 
wait to see. 
Q. When did he die?. A. He died on the 7th of January, 
1883. 
Q. Whether Father Gigault administered extreme unction to 
him? A. lie did, sir, and I assisted him. 
Q. That was before his death, of course. Now, was any 
funeral service held over him? A. Not to m3’ knowledge. 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. Now what? 
Mr. Brown. He don’t know anything about it. I don’t 
know how it is competent. 
Gov. Butler. I guess I will try to get on. 
Mr. Brown. Do you think you can stiffen him up so that he 
will know? 
Gov. Butler. Now’, don’t abuse him beftrrehand. What I 
propose to show, — I desire to put plainly forward what I desire 
to prove. Father Gigault has been here and testified that he 
administered extreme unction to Catholics and then he attended 
the funerals. I want to show’ that this boy, this black boy7, had 
extreme unction administered to him ; that he then died, and 
that no funeral services were held, to the knowledge of this man 
who had him in charge, and that Father Gigault came back 
there and inquired if he was dead and why7 he hadn’t been 
called, and contradict the record here where they7 have under- 
taken to show that this same man had funeral services over 
him, and that the State has paid for the funeral services. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, it has already7 appeared that 
there have been four clergy’inen besides Father Gigault go to 
that institution. And it don’t contradict anybody that Father 
Gigault didn’t perform funeral rites over that body7. The only 
fact tending to show that he was a Catholic or that funeral ser- 
vices should have been performed over him is the fact that 
Father Gigault administered certain rites before he died. Now, 
it is not shown that anybody7 else didn’t attend his funeral service 
and that he didn’t have any. This witness say7s that he don’t 
know that he had one ; don’t know whether he did or not. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon. He did. I asked him if 
there was a funeral service, and he said not that he knew of. 2998 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. It don’t prove anything. 
Gov. Butler. I have not got it all in. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t intend you shall if I can help it. 
Gov. Butler. I know you don’t. 
Mr. Brown. There would be no reason to object if }Tou had 
got it all in. 
The Chairman. The committee must act upon it. 
Mr. Learnard. What is the question, please? I would like 
to have the question repeated. 
Gov. Butler. The question is whether I should prove, if I 
can, that a certain man, who was a Catholic, had extreme unc- 
tion administered to him, and was buried as is claimed by the 
books. 
Mr. Learnard. If there was a regular question put. 
The Chairman. The governor stated what he proposed to 
prove, and now he is restating it. 
Gov. Butler. I have no occasion to restate it. Now we 
are on the question whether I shall ask the man whether he did 
know about it. He' says there was no funeral service to his 
knowledge. Now I want to ask him if he has such knowledge 
as to know whether there wasn’t an}"; and whether Fr. Gigault, 
he having assisted him in administering extreme unction, didn’t 
come and inquire whether the man was dead, and why he hadn’t 
been called ; that is all. 
The Chairman. The committee will vote upon it. There 
don’t seem to be any in the affirmative. It is rejected. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Records, I will call you. 
Testimony of Francis B. Records (recalled) 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Records, did you count all those names — 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Records was asked to make a list — I 
guess I have got the paper. 
The Witness. No, sir; I think not. 
Mr. Brown. I will ask him to put in the evidence that I 
requested. 
Gov. Butler. Well, after 1 get through. 
Mr. Brown. It is simply the whole number of names on the 
inmates’ cash-book. 
Gov. Butler. No sort of objection to that. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Mr. Records, have you counted the 
names on the inmates’ cash-books, the three volumes? A. I 
have, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
2999 
Q. Take the oldest book, and how many names are there 
upon that? A. 1,184. 
Q. In the next one, which you have numbered “ One,” how 
many? A. 661. That ‘‘Number One” is the one that has 
been called in evidence, and so I called it “ Number One.” 
Q. And in the third book. “ Number Two,”how many? A. 
1,756. 
Q. And how many in all — the total? A. 3,601. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) In the first place the old books 
were not examined, were they, to be used in evidence? A. 
The oldest one of all has not been examined at all. 
Q. Therefore you make three books? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Two have been used? A. Yes, sir. So I number 
them “ One ” and “ Two.” 
Q. Now, a word more. When I put in the evidence about 
the tobacco, yesterday, we heard something about old ladies 
smoking. How many of those tobacco charges, as I will call 
them for short, have you found — 
Mr. Brown. I object to their being called tobacco charges. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care what you call them ; the charges 
of 7, 14 and 21, which were attempted to be accounted for in 
that way. 
Q. How many young ladies do you find, — young women, — 
having tobacco charges against them? A. There are nine 
from 19 to 30 years of age ; nine out of 46. 
Mr. Brown. If a woman ever smokes she smokes before she 
is 30. 
Gov. Butler. Now, don’t you go to testifying, because l 
don’t want to cross-examine you. 
Mr. Brown. Somebody else smokes. 
Q. Now, what is the average age of those women charged 
with tobacco? A. Forty-eight years. 
Q. Now, Mr. Records, have you found upon the death-book 
certain marks, “ H,” “ B,” &c. A. Yes, sir. [Producing 
memoranda or abstract.] 
Q. Won’t you show me those, so I can give them to the 
committee. A. They came most in the second book. 
Gov. Butler. Now, I want you to show me that record in 
regard to the prisoners of the State and the remarks. 
[The witness turned to an entry on the death-book.] 
Gov. Butler. [Exhibiting book to committee.] I want to 3000 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
call the attention of the committee to the marks here on this 
book. 
Mr. Wolcott. What does that mark indicate? 
Gov. Butler. We say it indicates dead bodies sent away. 
You will see under that red ink mark “ Six, S. P., Harvard.” 
The Chairman. What is the book? 
Gov. Butler. This is the dead-book. Now, you will find 
the same marks there; you see we say this means six sent from 
the State prison. Now we will go over here somewhere. What 
page, Mr. Records? 
[The witness turned to another place in the book.] 
Gov. Butler. Here we find “ B,” which we say means that 
that dead bod}' went to Boston. “ H ” — to Harvard. 
Mr. Wolcott. Those thaft went to Harvard must have gone 
to Boston. 
Gov. Butler. Harvard College and Boston College. Here, 
again, you see “ B,” “II,” “II,” “ B,” “II.” And now I 
want to call your attention to the fact that the record was made 
up afterwards; because there would not be six sent at one time 
from the State prison. 
Q. Now, sir, Father Gigault’s book was put into your 
hands? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Was it offered in evidence? 
Gov. Butler. Why, yes ; I examined it a long time, and put 
it into his hands to find out. 
Mr. Brown. I should like to see where that book was offered 
in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; we didn’t read every name upon it, 
for good reasons. I propose to show a like memorandum, — 
“ H,” “ B,” “ H,” “ B,” &c., — made on the record of Father 
Gigault, which he kept of the burials, for the purpose of com- 
paring them and getting at, as well as I can, how many were 
sent. 
Mr. Brown. Well, but, Mr. Chairman, that is certainly very 
incompetent. I think Father Gigault should be allowed to in- 
terpret his owrn book. There has no interpretation of that kind 
been offered in evidence. On the other hand, I think he dis- 
tinctly states that he didn’t know anything about what became 
of them after death ; or at least after funeral services were per- 
formed, in certain cases. And the evidence from other parties 
is that the}' were taken from the place — if they were not to be 
buried immediately — they were taken from the place where the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300 
3001 
services were performed to the dead-house. And he never fol- 
lowed them there. 
Gov. Butler. 1 suppose that circumstantial evidence is to 
be admitted in this case, like every other. The argument has 
always been made here that you must prove everything by one 
witness, and unless tou do prove everything by one witness you 
cannot put it in. Now, then, I have got certain books here. I 
have tried to get somebody in the institution who would father 
these marks. I asked Charles Marsh if he knew anything about 
the marks, and he said there were some there and they were 
made by the doctor. I asked the doctor if he had anything to 
do with them, and he said he didn’t. I still find them there. 
Now, then, I find on Father Gigault’s record the same marks, 
and comparing them with the marks on the book, I find that as 
a rule they correspond. In some cases I hope to be able to 
show where the bodies did go to. actually. Now, shall I put in 
this piece of circumstantial evidence? And it is no more than 
a circumstance. But who is Father Gigault? He was a man 
employed by the State and paid by the State for burying these 
bodies. He had a reason, we know, to know how many he 
said funeral services over that were going away to be cut up, 
because I remarked my opinion of that performance, and I 
won’t trouble the committee again with it now. He did keep 
that record. It is on his book. I have taken an expert, in 
whom wre both have mutual confidence, and asked him to give 
me the result. He has done that, and the committee has not 
got to stop and pick it out. The point I want to prove is that 
on Father Gigault’s book there are entries of that description, 
that I may compare them with the entries on the other books 
of that description. 
The Chairman. Now, here is the record about the book, 
Governor, as far as I remember. Page 2058. [Reading.] 
“ Q. Have you any memorandum or record of the number of chil- 
dren you attended ? A. I did keep a memorandum ; yes, I have it. 
Q.. What? A. I did. 
Q Have yon got it ? A. Well, I have got it. I didn’t bring it 
with me. I took some notes befoi-e I left. 
Q. Have you got that memorandum at home ? A. I have it, but 
in poor form. 
Q. Well, it is good enough for our purpose.” 
That the book was ever produced or offered don’t appear. 3002 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. It seems to me that he came back the next 
day with the book. If }’ou pursue your investigations, \’ou will 
find it so. 
The Chairman. The next reference to his testimony is page 
2092 ; I don’t see where the book was put in. 
Gov. Butler. Didn’t he produce it, sir? The last that we 
had was that he didn’t produce it. Now I want to know if he 
didn’t produce it. 
Mr. Brown. It was not referred to again. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me; Mr. Records has got it, and he 
didn’t steal it. 
Mr. Brown. He produced it for you to put in— for your in- 
spection. It is like the book of Hall; we have never seen it. 
The Chairman. I don’t see an}* evidence from the record 
that the book has ever been put into the case ; if there is any, 
I would like to have it pointed out. 
Gov. Butler. I cannot point it out on the record, but I 
know what the fact was. 
Mr. Brown. Father Gigault’s testimony on the second day 
commences on page 2092. On neither of these pages is there 
any evidence that that book was ever offered in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. Is there any evidence about the book ? 
Mr. Brown. When lie was called first he was questioned 
about his book. 
Gov. Butler. Wasn’t he when he was called last? 
Mr. Brown. No. He is asked, “ Now, have you got the 
other?” And he saj’s: “I could not find it, this memorandum. 
I gave the list to the institution. I have only for this }'ear.” 
Gov. Butler. That is all? 
Mr. Brown. “ I gave the list to the institution, and I know 
they kept it there.” 
Mr. Gilmore. My remembrance is that the book was brought 
but was not put in. 
Mr. Brown. Not offered in evidence. He brought it and 
had it in his hand, but His Excellency never put it in evidence. 
He looked at his book, and he was asked if he attended the 
funeral service of* Eklund, you will recollect, and then the mat- 
ter was dismissed. That was the only approach that was made 
to it. 
Mr. Gilmore. My memory is that he produced the book. 
Mr. Brown. He did ; but it was not offered in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. And it was put into the hands of Mr. Records. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
3003 
If you remember, it was a small book, written backwards, part 
of it. Part of the wa}T it was written backwards. And he put 
it into the hands of Mr. Records. He testified to it, and iden- 
tified it. That made it a part of the record. And I had some- 
bod}’ go to work on it. I was a little wrong, in the haste of 
my statement, and I want to put it right What I mean to say 
is, that I find on Father Gigault’s book the names — 
Mr. Brown. I submit we ought not to have — 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I am not going to do anything 
wrong. 
Mr. Brown. Well, go on. 
Gov. Butler. Under anybod3’’s ruling. I find in Father 
Gigault’s book certain names which correspond to those names 
marked “ B” and “ H.” And on having Father Gigault’s book 
compared with the death-book, I find that the “ B ” and “ H” — 
Mr. Brown. Now, let us see. 
Gov. Butler. I find that the “B” and “ H ” on the Tewks- 
bury dead-book are against the names of those buried by Father 
Gigault. 
Mr. Brown. Let me see if I understand you. For instance, 
here is the book — see what I refer to, Governor, — here is the 
book; here is the name and number; Father Gigault performed 
the funeral service ; and there you find “ H.” 
Gov. Butler. I find “ H.” 
Mr. Brown. Now, you want to show by Father Gigault’s 
book that he did perform the funeral service. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. 
Mr. Brown. This book [the death-book] shows that he did, 
and this is already in evidence. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; but the difficulty is that there are 
“ H ” and “ B ” where he didn’t. 
Mr. Brown. Then the inference would be that there were 
other bodies, if H means Harvard — that there were other bodies 
which went to that place, over which other clergymen performed 
funeral services. All I have to say is, What of it? Do }’ou 
mean to say that because a man is selected for dissection that 
therefore he should not have a funeral? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no. 
Mr. Brown. What is it? I don’t understand the situation. 
Gov. Butler. I see 30U don’t. 
Mr. Brown. I am after information and light. I don’t know 
but 1 would admit it, if 1 knew what it was for. 3004 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Putney. I think it refers to the book in question, on page 
2102. All the matter on that page is in reference to this book, 
commencing at the top of the page. 
Mr. Brown. There is no doubt about it, but the book was 
not put in evidence and I had no opportunity to examine it. 
Mr. Putney. There is reference to it. 
The Chairman. The book was in the hands of Father 
Gigault, there is no doubt about that, but whether it was put 
into the case is another thing. 
Mr. Putney. It seems to me that it ought to be in, if it was 
not put in, after a whole page of reference to the book. 1 saw 
the book, but I don’t know whose hands it was put into. 
Mr. Brown. I know I didn’t have opportunity to examine it. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] 
“ Q. Have you got. your book of burials? A. This is the first 
record. [Handing book to governor.] 
Mr. Mellen. I think we had better consider the question whether 
to have a new chairman or get our old chairman back 
Q,. Does this book contain all the burials? It commences, I see, 
in January, 1879 ? A. Not all; but for two years, 1879 and 1880. 
Q. For 1879 and 1880 ? A. Yes. 
Q. That is, it contains all the burials for that year ? A. For that 
year. 
Q. That you made ? A. That I made. 
Q. When you made funeral services, and you made funeral ser- 
vices in each one ? A For each one of those mentioned there 
Q. That are found on the book. Now, have you got the other? 
A. That is a record for all of them. I have not the one for the 
other years. I could not find it, this memorandum ; I gave the list 
to the institution; I have only for this year. 
Q. For what year? A. For this year and for 1879 and’80; the 
others I could not find them, because I am not bound to keep any 
record ; it is a private thing. 1 gave the list to the institution, and I 
know they kept it there. 
Q. You did give a list to the institution; did they ask you to do 
it ? A. They asked me to do it. 
Q. How often did you give this list? A. Well, every month or 
two months, generally; every two or three months. 
Q. To whom did you give them? A To the secretary, the clerk 
of the institution, Mr. Charles Marsh. 
Q. Then he had a record of the funerals? A. lb' has. 
Q. So far as you are concerned? A. Given at his own request. 
Gov. Butler. Mr Brown, I would like that record produced. 
Mr. Brown. What? 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
3005 
Gov. Butler. The record of the burials of the institution given 
by Father Gigault to Charles Marsh. 
Mr. Brown. Does he testify that he kept any record of the 
burials? I understood him it was a record of the bodies over which 
he performed funeral rites. 
Gov. Butler. Usually that is a record of burials. 
Mr Brown. But, you say in this case it has not the slightest 
value. I wanted to find out what you meant, because you said peo- 
ple who had masses said over them went immediately to Harvard 
College. 
Gov. Butler. No use of having any, — 
Mr. Brown. Now you are in the wrong and you want to stop. 
’ • 
The Chairman. Near the bottom of the page I think 3*011 
will find exactly the point. Two inches from the bottom. 
Gov. Butler. A little further, sir. [Reading.] 
“ Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; we can’t have any trouble about this 
I assume, when funeral rites are said over a man, that is his burial. 
If any man steals the body after that, I am not responsible; there- 
fore, I am asking him for the record of the burials. 
Mr. Brown. I only wanted to understand you. I will make in- 
quiries to ascertain. 
Gov. Butler. The record of burials Father Gigault swore ho 
gave to the clerk of the institution, — I will ask you to produce it. 
Mr. Brown. I will endeavor to do so. I can’t produce it at this 
moment. 
Gov. Butler. That is all with you, Father, now. 
Mr. Brown. Now, let us see that book which you have received 
from Father Gigault ? 
Gov. Butler. Certainly, sir; I have no concealment. 
Mr. Brown. What is to be done with it; is it to be offered in 
evidence ? 
Gov. Butler. I am going to examine it and offer it in evidence. 
Mr. Brown. That is, after you have examined it; but you don’t 
desire to do it now. 
Gov. Butler. I cannot have time to examine it now. 
Mr. Brown. Excuse me. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Is the name of Charles J. Ekland in that 
book, Father Gigault? A. No, sir. 
Q. It is not ? A. No, sir. 
Q. And within your experience, Father Gigault, the Swedes are 
not Catholics, are they ? ” 
So that the book was given to Mr. Brown, and lie was told 
that I was to examine it and put it in evidence ; and I am here 3006 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
to do it, if you will allow me. Hut instead of the book I only 
want to put in what the expert finds, which I want to identify. 
The Chairman. 1 suppose it was a mere oversight, not put- 
ting it in. 
Gov. Butler. Clearly, Mr. Brown has examined, it and he 
promised to give me the record, but he never has. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Chairman, what is this all for? 
Does the governor claim — He once said that a funeral ser- 
vice performed over the bod}’ of a person to be sent for dissec- 
tion was mummery ; and afterwards he took that back. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. You persist in it? 
Gov. Butler. I do ; it is the worst possible mummery. 
Mr. Brown. Then what is this all for; is it to show how 
much mummery there was at the institution? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. Then I understand it exactly, and it is opening 
a new subject. We have had all sorts of nonsense, but mum- 
mery is the last. I object to it. 
Gov. Butler. Then we are in this condition: we have got 
an institution which has the charge of living paupers, and when 
they are dead, they are taken, after funeral services — no, I 
must go back a little — they are given up to the colleges when 
they are to be buried at the public expense, an expense of about 
five dollars a body is paid for funeral services over it: that 
would be more than the cost of a pauper funeral. They then 
have a pretence of burial by the funeral service holding over 
the body. They pay more than it would cost to bury it, and 
then they give it up to an institution because it costs something 
to bury it. It is a body to be buried at public expense. 1 am 
one of those old-fashioned people that think that when a funeral 
service is held over a body that it is for all practical purposes 
substantially buried. True, we follow it with slow and sorrow- 
ing steps to the grave, but in most churches no rite is performed 
at the grave. In some there are. Now, T hold it to be a scan- 
dal to the Commonwealth that the Commonwealth’s treasury 
should be robbed for the purpose of holding funeral services 
over bodies sent down to be cut up because the Commonwealth 
can’t afford to bury them. And 1 want the committee of the 
legislature to struggle with that proposition as the people of the 
Commonwealth have struggled with it. And 1 want to say, 
also, another thing: I want to say that this was done by the 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3007 
hundreds, and that there is a record kept at the institution 
which is not yet produced. I hold that that is a misuse of 
the public money. Ashes to ashes ; ashes to the dissecting- 
knife. And I say it is worse than that; it is sacrilege ; it is using 
Christian rites that we all respect over remains that are to be 
floating around the country, or hung up for show, or given to the 
fishes, as evidenced in this case. L can go over at great length, 
and take time and dig this out. But I have had it done by an 
expert, and 1 ask that those, so far as Father Gigault’s record 
goes, in two years, — that he shall show that he finds those bodies 
over which he performed these ceremonies marked “H” and 
“ B.” Harvard and Boston University. They kept no record of 
the dental college and the other universityT the college of phy- 
sicians and surgeons ; but over these two we have that much. 
Now, if the committee say 1 shall not do it, I cannot do it. 
Mr. Bkown. Mr. Chairman, the governor has found a con- 
undrum in one of these books, and that conundrum is capable 
of one hundred and fifty interpretations. The letter “ H,” admit- 
ting it to be the first letter of some intended word, applies to 
many thousand words in the English language. He has guessed 
the conundrum in one way, and he wants you to take his guess 
as a fact — to assume the guess as a fact. He wants you to 
take that fact and interpret something else, and all for what? 
Why, it is all new in the first place. He should have ottered it 
in chief. Those books were open to his inspection. u H” was 
there during the almost sixty days when he was putting in his 
evidence, and the “ B ” was just the same. 
Gov. Butlkk. How do you know that? 
Mr. Brown. Why he should have been trying to guess that 
conundrum during that period 1 don’t know. 
Gov. Butler. Father Gigault’s book, with which we are now 
dealing, didn’t come in until he was called by the other side. 
Mr. Brown. Father Gigault was within the range of your 
subpoena, and you knew he was at that institution, and you knew* 
that he performed funeral rites over the people. 
Gov. Butler. 1 neither knew that he was at that institution, or 
that he performed funeral rites, until I began this investigation. 
Mr. Brown. Yes ; and after you began it, and after you got 
the books, from that time to the time you closed your case you 
knew it all the time ; and it was discussed during the first 
twenty days of this investigation — this question of the burial 
of these bodies and having the funeral rites over them — as the 3008 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
Apr. 
record shows ; and if I am not mistaken in regard to time it was 
during the first thirty days. Now what is all this for? It is for 
the purpose of saying that bodies buried at the public expense 
should be deprived of funeral rites. The people of the Common- 
wealth for more than fifty years have said that that is a proper 
thing to do. For fifty-three years the people of this Common- 
wealth have said that is a proper thing to do. Have they 
ever sail that a man whose body might be dissected in 
the interest of science and for the benefit of society should be 
deprived of funeral rites? Wouldn’t that be an outrage of 
public sentiment? I don’t believe the people of this Common- 
wealth would ever permit it; the}’ would, in my judgment, 
have reason to complain if in a public institution from which 
bodies were sent to medical schools, the authorities, in view of 
the fact that those bodies were to be sent, should refuse to have 
any clergyman perform clerical rites over them. I don’t believe 
that it amounts to an} thing. It is new matter, and not in re- 
buttal in any way, shape or manner. If His Excellency wants 
to show that the continued and uninterrupted judgment of 
people of this Commonwealth for fifty-three years is wrong, 
why, he has a place to do that, he says, elsewhere. We under- 
stand what that means. But there is the statute-book, and 
until there is some modification of the statute the people at this 
institution are bound to perform funeral rites over the bodies of 
all. 
Gov. Butler. There is no statute on earth which permits it. 
Mr. Brown. Which permits what? 
Gov. Butler. Funeral rites over the bodies of those to be 
dissected. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I say to you in these words, that common 
decency requires it. 
Gov. Butler. Then I say to you that you are guilty of com- 
mon decency up there for the first time. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t think it is necessary for you to go into 
that, because it has been the universal course of the people up 
there. 
Mr. Gilmore. 1 would like to know, before voting, whether 
the witness has any knowledge about what “H” and “ B ” 
mean ? 
Gov. Butler. That is a matter of circumstantial evidence, 
sir. 
The Chairman. It is a matter of argument. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3009 
Gov. Butler. A matter of argument from the facts. I say 
“ II” means Harvard, and “B” means Boston University. 
And there are certain circumstances, one of which I pointed out 
to 3Tou, which will lead to that. I want to put in that piece of 
evidence for such argument as the committee choose to make 
from it. 
The Chairman. Those in favor of admitting the evidence — 
Mr. Putney. What is the question ? 
The Chairman. The question of admitting the extract from 
the book verified by this expert, as 1 understand it. 
Mr. Putney. As far as the evidence goes, I claim that thp 
book is really in as one of the record books; and I don’t see 
how we can take any vote on a matter already in evidence. 
The Chairman. I don’t understand it is in ; but I think it 
was omitted by mere inadvertence, wliicli we should allow the 
governor to correct. 
Mr. Mellen. I move that it be considered in. 
The Chairman. We will consider the book itself in. 
Mr. Brown. If the committee think that that is a proper 
subject for inquiry, if the committee think they have anything 
to do with that subject, I shall not object to that book going 
in. But in the first place it is a guess what the “H” and 
“ B ” mean. 
The Chairman. The weight is a matter of argument. Then 
we will consider the book in. The question is whether we will 
admit this abstract. 
Gov. Butler. If the book is in, this abstract will follow, as 
a compilation made by Mr. Records. 
Mr. Brown. Very well. Then there is not any need of 
spending an}r time about it. 
Gov. Butler. That is all 1 want to ask him, — if he made 
that record. That is all I have attempted to ask him. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You find that “H” and “B” in 
these books [the death-books[] correspond to those names in 
Father Gigault’s book, that he buried, do you? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Is Father Gigault’s book now in 
your possession? A. It is not. I think the governor has it. 
Mr. Brown. I think I ought to be allowed to inspect it. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly; if anybody will ask me for it. I 
haven’t it personally. 
Mr. Gilmore. It seems to me that Father Gigault should be 
called to explain it. 3010 
CIIA RITA BLE 1NSTITUTK INS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. Ah, but they are not in his book. 
Gov. Butler. You don’t understand. They are against the 
names of those that he buried. 
Mr. Gilmore. I understand they are in his book. 
Mr. Mei.len. That is the governor’s point — that burial 
services were held over the remains of bodies that were after- 
wards sent to the medical school. 
Mr. Brown. [Referring to the memorandum.] Do you in- 
tend this shall go in ? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir. 
. Mr. Browtn. Then I object to its going in in its present form. 
Here is a statement, “ Where sent.” I think that should still be 
left a conundrum, because that you don’t know. 
Gov. Butler. Where sent is “ II” and B.” It don’t tell 
where it is sent. 
The Chairman. I think the committee should have Father 
Gigault’s book. 
Gov. Butler. You may strike it off. 
[ The paper, as admitted, was as follows : ] 
1870. 
Number. 
Name. 
Age. 
How marked in 
Death Book. 
Jan. 3, 
56,609 
Jas. Smith, .... 
B. 
9, 
51,977 
Jno. Hart, .... 
. 81 
II. 
29-Feb. 3, 
56,754 
Frank Johnson, . . 
8 
• T2 
11. 
Feb. 4-6, 
56,726 
Jno. Murphy, . . . 
. 50 
11. 
7-10, 
23,932 
Ann McGovern, . . 
. 55 
B. 
9-10, 
56,462 
Pat. Devine, .... 
. 43 
B. 
14-15, 
46,565 
Frank Barbary, . . 
. 60 
II. 
15-18, 
45,961 
Mary Collins, . . . 
. 74 
B. 
17-18, 
50,787 
Wm. Monteith,. . . 
. 50 
H. 
18-19, 
51,096 
Maurice Pickett, . . 
. 65 
B. 
19-19, 
54,854 
Michael Durant, . . 
. 50 
II. 
20-23, 
49,297 
Michael Kiley, . . . 
. 62 
II. 
26, 
55,559 
Bernard Muldoon, 
. 62 
II. 
26, 
53,877 
Pat. Dwyer, .... 
. 76 
II. 
26, 
52,512 
Wm. Sharp, .... 
. 64 
11. 
Mar. 4-7, 
46,146 
Ellen Heavlin, . . . 
. 70 
B. 
6-7, 
, 55,341 
Jas. Pettet, .... 
. 35 
11. 
8, 
56,547 
Pat. Gillie, .... 
. 70 
B. 
8, 
54,903 
Jane Sweetman, . . 
. 55 
B, 
12-13, 
54,885 
Michael Cadigan, . , 
. 72 
II. 
13, 
56,805 
T. Mehan, .... 
H. 
10-11, 
56,593 
Margaret Pender, . . 
. 42 
H, 1883.] 
HOUSE-—No. 300 
3011 
1879. 
Number. 
Name. 
Age. 
How marked in 
Death Book. 
Apr. 9, 
57,075 
Mary Canty,. . . 
. . 31 
B. 
24, 
48,987 
Martha Donnelley, 
. . 68 
H. 
25, 
56,347 
Mary Driscoll, . . 
. . 29 
H. 
30, 
57,120 
Jas. Conley, . . . 
. . 24 
H. 
Sept. 29, 
49,619 
Edw. Burke,. . . 
. . 85 
H. 
Oct. 3, 
57,800 
Leonard Krupp, . 
. . 45 
H. 
21, 
57,841 
Eva Wright,. . . 
. . 24 
H. 
24, 
57,145 
Cath. Thurston, 
. . 26 
H. 
Dee. 3, 
44,734 
Jno. Day,.... 
. . 60 
H. 
3-4, 
58,670 
Sam’l Johnston, . 
'. . 38 
H. 
20, 
43,207 
Mary A. Hodgkins, 
. . 65 
H. 
20, 
1880. 
52,276 
Ellen Cody, . . . 
. . 70 
H. 
Jan. 3, 
57,113 
Cornelius Marra . 
. .* 70 
H. 
26 H. 9 B. 
Mr. Brown. Now, where is the record book of Father 
Gigault ? 
The Witness. I think Mr. Major has it. 
Gov. Butler. We will bring it in this afternoon. It is time 
to adjourn now. 
Adjourned until 2 p. m. CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
3012 
SIXTY-THIRD hearing. 
Thursday, Juty 12. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 2 p. m., Senator 
Loring of Worcester in the chair. 
Testimony of Francis B. Records (recalled) 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Mr. Records, will you turn to the 
first entry upon this memorandum which 3*011 produced this 
morning- A. [Referring to the death-book.] 56,609, 1879, 
dan. 3. 
Q. What is the date? A. Jan. 3, 1879. 
Q. Now, is that the first time when 3*011 find an}r initial that 
3*ou have spoken of? A. It is not. 
Q, Well, is not that the first instance named in }Tour memo- 
randa? A. This refers to Father Gigault’s book. 
Q. This onl}T commences where 3rou find Father Gigault’s 
book commences? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. Which was in 1879. 
Q. Now turn to the first instance where you find the initial 
referred to. 
Gov. Butler. It is there where the leaf is turned down. 
The Witness. That is not the first letter. 
Q. (B}r Gov. Butler.) But there is an H there, isn’t there? 
A. That is “ six, State Prison ; II.” 
Q. (B3* Mr. Brown.) Which do 3*011 understand that refers 
to; 48,135? A. No, sir. 
Gov. Butler. There are six there. 
Q. But you don’t know what six it refers to, whether six in 
that year, or six in some other year. A. No, sir. 
Q. The first II 3*011 find is under date of September 23, 
1876, is it not? 
Gov. Butler. That is not so. 
Mr. Brown. I ask him a question. 
Gov. Butler. Well, look through and see. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
3013 
Mr. Brown. I am trying to get him to answer. I want the 
first initial. I don’t care whether it is H, B, or what; the first 
one of those conundrum initials. 
The Witness.' There is the first II I find. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I want the first initial that you find, I 
don’t care where it is. 
The Witness. There is the first II I refer to. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t ask that. I want you to turn to the first 
initial. 
The Witness. That is it, as I understand your question. 
Q. Now, sir, that is dated September 23, 1876, is it not? 
A. September 23, 1876 ; yes, sir. 
Q. That is the first one. Now the next one with the initial; 
give us the date, and tell us what the initial is. A. September 
27, B. 
Q. What is the next one? A. October 10, II. 
Q Go right on; give the dates and initials. A. October 
14, H. 
Gov. Butler They are all there. 
Mr. Brown. But this don’t commence till 1879. Go right 
on. 
The Witness. October 20, B ; October 26, H ; November 6, 
H ; November 7, B ; November 15, II; December 7, B ; Decem- 
ber 16, D; December 18, IT; December 21, II; December 31, 
B; January 1, 1877, H; January 6, 1877, B; January 8, B; 
January 17, II ; January 23, II; January 25, B; January 25, 
H ; January 26, II. Two on the 26th. 
Q. That is, two H’s? A. Two H’s on the 26th. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Two bodies? A. Two bodies. 
January 29, B ; February 4, II; February 6, II; February 9, 
B; February 11, II; February 14, II; February 14, again. II ; 
February 22, B ; March 7, II; March 8, B ; March 9, B ; March 
14, II; March 15, II; March 18, II; March 20, II; March 19, 
B ; March 23, B ; March 23, H ; April 7, B ; April 8, II ; April 
11, B; April 13, II; April 19, B; April 20, B; April 21, H; 
April 24, II; May 1, B ; May 7, B ; May 7, II; May 8, B ; 
May 10, II; May 24, H. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Then it skips from May 24 over to—? 
A. October 14, H; October 20, B ; October 21,11; October 
24, B ; November 2, H ; November 3, B ; November 5, II ; 
November 12, II ; November 15, H ; November 16, B ; Novem- 
ber 17, B ; November 17, H ; November 29, II; November 30, 3014 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
B; December 1G, B; December 18, II; January 1, 1878, B; 
January 2, II ; January 7, H ; January 7, B; January 15, H ; 
January 19, II; January 25, II; January 25, 1); February 6, 
H ; February 0, B ; February 8, II; February 10, B ; February 
20, B; February 22, H ; February 25, H ; March 4, B: March 
8, H; March 12, H; March 21, B; March 21, II; March 24, 
II; March 25, B ; April 17, II; May 26, B ; May 27, B. 
Gov. Butler. What year have you got to now? 
Mr. Brown. 1878. 
Q. (By Mr. Brown.) Then from Ma}r 27, 1878, it skips 
over to what? A. August 31, 1878, B; November 2, H; 
November 4, II; November 11, B ; December 4, II; December 
18, H ; December 18, B ; December 22, H ; December 23, H ; 
December 24, B ; December 24, II; December 25, II; Decem- 
ber 27, II; December 27, B ; December 29, II. Then we come 
to January 3. 
Q. January 3, 1879 ; and there 3Tou commence to run into 
the record of Father Gigault? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, I want }tou to take — Does this slip include all 
those that are marked with an initial, as 3rou sa}T, or only those 
that are on Father Gigault’s book? A. Only those on Father 
Gigault’s book. These names here [on the memorandum] are 
on Father Gigault’s book, and I find them on the death-book 
marked with these initials. 
Q. Now, just call them through 1879. A. January 3, B; 
January 6, II; January 5, II; January 9, B — 
Q. That Januar}r 3, B, is on Father Gigault’s book? A 
Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think this examination of books 
should be taken out of m}r time. 
Mr. Brown. Then I don’t know why you should put them in 
if you are not willing that the witness should be cross-examined. 
Gov. Butler. I am willing; but simply for him to call H, B, 
which anybody else can see as well as he, isn’t any cross-ex- 
amination. 
Mr. Brown. This witness has submitted here a partial ex- 
amination of these books with certain initials. Now, I intend, 
if these initials are going in, as the committee has indicated, 
that all the entries where the initials are found shall go in. 
Gov. Butler. So do I; and have put them in. 
Mr. Mellen. It is in. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3015 
Gov. Butler. It is in. It is onty asking kirn to read them 
and taking up so much time. I understand it perfectly. 
Mr. Brown. If the committee don’t want them all read I 
will try to abridge the matter somewhat. 
The Chairman. Make it as swift as you eau, Mr. Brown. 
Q. Now, just go on and run down the page and give the 
dates where these initials are without calling them. Give me 
the last initial in the spring of 1879 —the last entry where you 
find an initial in the spring of 1879. A. Do you want them 
all called? 
Q. Yes. A. I left off at the 19th. Did I call the 19tli? 
January 19, II ; January 21, H; January 26, H. 
Q. I want you to show where Father Gigault didn’t attend. 
1 want you to show where he did attend. A. I cannot by this 
book. They didn’t put in the name of the clergyman. 
Q. Then omit that. Hold on a moment. Give me the last 
entry where you find an initial in the spring of 1879. A. That 
would be in the other book. 
Q. What is the last entry in that book, please? A. The 
last entry here marked with an initial is February 15. That 
may have been in the other. 
Q. I know ; but the last entry in this book? A. Volume 
one ? 
Q. It is February 15, 1879? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very well; take the next book. A. February 17, II; 
February 18, B; February 19, H; February 20, H; February 
26, II; February 26, II; February 26, H ; March 4, B ; March 
6, H ; March 8, B ; March 8, B ; March 12, H ; March 13, H ; 
March 10, H. 
Q. Go right on through the spring. A. April 9, B ; April 
24, H ; April 25, II ; April 30, H ; and that is the last. 
Q. Then, from the 30th of April, 1879, you skip over to 
what date? A. The next II appears September 29, 1879. 
Q. September 29? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. So that there is no mark between April 30 and Septem- 
ber 29? A. That is, none of these marks of H or B. 
Q. Well, any other initial which, according to your inter- 
pretation, means anything of the kind? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, from September 29, go on. 
Gov. Butler. Well, we have got that all on that paper. 
.Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon; only those in Father 
Gigault’s book are on this paper. [Apr. 
3016 
ClIAlilTABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
The Witness. That is all 1 am giving you now. 
Mr. Brown. I asked you to give them all. 
The Witness. I am only giving those opposite Father 
Gigault’s name. 
Gov. Butler. _ They are all opposite Father Gigault’s name, 
as I understand, after that. 
Q. There are others in the year 1879 where you find the 
initial, where some other person is named as the clergyman who 
performed the funeral rites. 
Gov. Butler. No. 
The Witness. There are. There is one here. 
Q. Give us the names of some of them ? A. Here is 
French ; April 22 ; marked B. 
Q. Any other name? A. French began March 20. 
Q. Just give us a variety ; give us all the different names of 
the clergymen? A. Gigault and French I have given ; I tliink 
those are the only two. Oh, here is one; February 19tli, Eld- 
son, B. That is all the different clergymen I see. 
Q. Well, now, as 1 understand you, you haven’t made any 
calculation to find out how many there are on those books that 
have an initial? A. Not the total number; no, sir. 
Q. Except a calculation to find how many appear upon these 
books, and also upon Father Gigault’s books, where the initial 
is? A. That is all. 
Q. Do you know the handwriting of the initial? A. I do 
not. 
Q. You do not? A. I do not. 
Q. Do you know what the initial means, except as you have 
guessed at it? A. No, sir. 
The Chairman. Hurry up, Mr. Brown ; hurry up. 
Q. Now, in the year 1882, were there any marked with 
initials? A. No, sir ; I never have observed any. 
Q. And only in the years from 1876 to 1879; is that all? 
A. That is all. 
Mr. Brown. Now, let me look at 1879 one moment. That 
is all, I believe. 
Q. (lfy Gov. Butler.) That is to say, on looking it over 
you find this: that during the winter months, when the Har- 
vard Medical School was in session, and other medical schools 
were in session, 3Tou find H and B opposite the bodies : and 
during the summer months, when they were not there dissect- 
ing, you don’t find any? A, No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
3017 
Gov. Butler. That is all. ' 
The Chairman. Let Father Gigault’s book be handed to the 
committee. 
The Witness. Here it is. 
Testimony of George E. Skinner {sworn) 
Du ~eel examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Where is your place of business? A. Twenty-eight 
Faneuil Hall Square, Boston. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) What is your full name? A. 
George E. Skinner. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Did you ever visit the Harvard 
Medical School? A. I did, sir. 
Q. With whom? A. With A. T. Andrews. 
Q. Who else? A. The janitor who was there at the time. 
Q. The janitor there at the time. Anybody else there at 
the time besides him? A. What do you mean; that went in? 
Q. With you? A. Yes, sir ; Mr. Stevens. 
Q. Mr. Webster? Did Mr. Webster go in with you? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. When was it? A. About nine years ago, last Decem- 
ber. 
Q. In December ; what day of the week? A. Sunday. 
Q. Did you go through the dissecting-room? A. I did. 
Q. See any bodies on the table? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Tables all full? A. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. A little louder, Mr. Witness. 
Gov. Butler. He says yes, sir. 
Q. We are told there are ten tables there. One at each. 
Did you look into the dead-house ? A. I did. 
Q. How many bodies did you see in the dead-house? A. 
Well, I could not tell the number, but I should think there 
might be a dozen, and possibly twenty. 
Q. How were they distributed ; on shelves, or piled up like 
cord-wood on the floor? A. They seemed to be thrown in 
promiscuously. 
Q. All there at the same time ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did the janitor show them to you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Was there any children amongst them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many? A. Well, I remember seeing one; and 
there might have been more; but I only remember distinctly of 
seeing one. 3018 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. By children 3 011 mean—? A. I mean probably there 
might have been two or three of those. 
Q. Naked or clothed, were those bodies? A. Naked. 
Mr. Learnard. I didn’t hear the answer of the witness. 
The Witness. Naked. 
Q. Ever go there more than once? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you go there at the invitation of the janitor? A. 
No, sir. I wms invited by Mr. Andrews. 
Q. The one that testified here the other day. You went in 
with him? A. With Mr. Andrews ; 3Tes, sir. 
Q. And the janitor was there with 30U, I suppose? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. I got the name of Webster instead of An- 
drews. The witness is 3'ours, Mr. Brown. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. You say that was nine 3'ears ago last December, of a 
Sunday? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who was the janitor? A. I think his name was Water- 
house. 
Q. And you went in by invitation of Mr. Andrews? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Had he ever been there before, within your knowledge ? 
A. I could not say whether he had or not. 
Q. You didn’t hear him say? A. lie had been there either 
before or afterwards ; I think he had been there before. 
Q. How had he, at the time you were there, been there after- 
wards? A. Because I know that he told me that he had been 
there afterwards. 
Q. He told 3*011 nine years ago last December that he had 
been there afterwards? A. No, sir; after he had been there 
lie told me afterwards that he had been there. 
Q. So that that seemed to indicate that that was his first 
visit when 3rou went with him? A. It might possibly have 
been. 
Q. Did 3rou examine those bodies carefulh*? A. Well, on 
the dissecting-table I examined them. 
Q. Well, the bodies in the dead-room 3rou didn’t examine at 
all — the bodies of the children? A. I remember in the dis- 
secting-room of seeing them. 
Q. Did you examine the body of the child in the dead-room? 
A. No, sir ; I didn’t go into the dead-room. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3019 
Q. You cannot tell within two 3rears how” old it wras b}r what 
you saw? A. I could only tell about the size of it; the gen- 
eral appearance. 
Q. About how tall or long was it? A. I didn’t measure. 
Q. You don’t remember? A. Never formed any judgment 
of its length ; no, sir. I should not want to saj’. 
Q. Now, come to the dissecting-table. Did you examine 
the children on the dissecting-table? A. Well, I didn’t lay 
m3” hands on them. I stood near enough ; I remember seeing 
one with the head sawed off. 
Q. Sawed off.from the body at the neck? A. No; sawed 
in two, diagonal^’. 
Q. That is, the skull divided? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Were the3* covered up writh anything? A. The3” were 
covered with sheets, some of them ; some >vere not. 
Q. I am talking about those two children. Were either of 
those covered up with sheets ? A. I don’t remember about 
those, whether they7 were or not; I know some of them were. 
Q. That is, some part of the body ? A. Some part of the 
body; yes, sir. 
Q. Did 3”Ou remove the sheet to see them? A. No; the 
janitor did. 
Q. Removed the sheet to see the head; and at the time you 
saw the head the rest of the body was covered with the sheet? 
A. The private part of the body” was covered with the sheet. 
Q. Now, about the other bod3” which 3rou refer to, where 
the head had not been sawed off; was that covered with a sheet 
also? A. I don’t remember distinctly. I say part of the bod3” 
was covered ; I would not distinguish whether they were all. 
My impression is that the private parts were covered. 
Q. I don’t want your impression, unless you can tell with 
some degree of confidence? A. I will tell you just as it is. 
Q. Then you can’t tell with any degree of confidence whether 
they were or not? A. Yes, I can. 
Q. Now, was the other child, whose head had not been 
sawed, covered with a sheet? A. I think they were covered 
with sheets. 
Q. Both of them ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the janitor removed tlie sheet from the head of the 
one so that you saw it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did he remove the sheet from the head of the other child, 3020 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
that you recollect? A. My impression is that the sheets were 
lifted from most all of them ; I think all. 
Q. Will you swear to it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Lifted it from both children? A. All that I saw; and 
1 think 1 looked at all of them. 
Q. AVhen you say all what do you mean? A. I mean all 
the bodies on the dissecting-tables. 
Q. I don’t ask that; I am asking about children. Now, 
will you swear that the sheets were lifted from the bodies of 
both children? A. To my best knowledge I think they were. 
Q. To the best of your knowledge, you tlynk? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. To the best of your knowledge, do you know? A. M}r 
knowledge is pretty good on that point, for I know it made me 
pretty near sick. 
Q. Yes, and you turned your head pretty quickly and got 
out? A. No, sir; I did not. I can stand a good deal. 
Q. You stayed there and were sick? A. I stayed and saw 
it. 
Q. Notwithstanding you were very sick? A. No, I was 
not sick ; it gave me a sickening feeling. 
Q. You only examined them for a moment. I suppose, it was 
so unpleasant? A. We were passing through. 
Mr Brown. That is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) You are sure you saw two children, 
whether the sheets were lifted or not? A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 1 won’t trouble you any further. 
Testimony oe Joseph O’Neil (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Your name is Joseph O’Neil, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where are }’ou employed now, sir? A. At 157 Tremont 
Street, clerk for Henry C. Bird & Co. 
Q. Clerk for Henry C. who? A. Henry C. Bird & Co., 
auctioneers. 
Q. How long have }'ou been employed there? A. Well, 
off and on, three or four years. 
Q. AYere you once a student of the Harvard Medical School? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What year? A. 1873-74. 
Q. And have you ever seen children and babies dissected 1883.], 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3021 
there? A. Yes, sir; the first subject I ever dissected was a 
baby. 
Q. Where did you dissect it? A. In the dissecting-room. 
Q. Whom did you pay for it, if anybody? A. I paid Mr. 
Waterhouse, the janitor. 
Q. What else did you dissect? A. I dissected, in Christ- 
mas week of that year, a body of an animal. 
Q. Of an adult? A. Of an adult. 
Q. Did you ever look into the dead-room? A. Yes, sir; I 
did. 
Q. Ever see any children there? A. I saw two in the 
dead-room. I saw one outside, in Dr. Diswell’s arms ; whether 
he was to dissect it or not, I could not tell. 
Q. What did you pay for the child? A. I paid two dollars. 
There are five students on one body, and two dollars apiece. 
Q. What did you pay for the child? A. Each one of us 
paid two dollars, making ten dollars for the whole body. 
Q. How old was the child? A. I should judge, sir, about 
a year, or a little over. 
Gov. Butler. The witness is yours, sir. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Are you under the influence of liquor? A. No, sir. 
Q. How many times have you drank to-day? A. How 
man}' times have I drank to-day? 
Q. Yes. How many times have you drank to-day? A. 
Once — for dinner. 
Q. Just before you came in? What made you go to sleep 
over there in the corner? A. What makes anybody go to 
sleep in this warm weather? 
Q. What made you stagger when you came to the chair? 
A. Just after waking up. 
Q. Nothing else? A. No, sir. 
Q. Not in the habit of drinking? A. No, sir. 
Q. Never drank before to-day ? A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Testimony of George E. Skinner {recalled). 
Q. ( By Gov. Butler.) I want to ask a single word of the 
last witness—something I omitted by accident. Did you see, 
when you went in there, this woman with her hair all cut off? 
A. I did. 3022 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. Did 3*ou see the trunks in which the bodies came into 
the dead-house? A. I did, sir. 
Q. How many of them? A. Well, I remember of seeing 
some three or four there. 
Q. Were thc3* open or closed, do 3*ou know? A. The3* 
were opened while I was there, to look in. 
Q. Anything in them? A. Nothing in them. I asked 
them what the3* used them for, and they said to bring bodies 
from Tewksbuiy. 
Gov. Buti.br. That is all. 
Testimony of Herbert H. Lyons (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Were 3*011 a student at Harvard? A. I was. 
Q. What is your full name, Doctor? A. Herbert H. 
Lyons. 
Q. Where are you in practice now? A. Fitchburg. 
Q. What time were you in Harvard? A. I entered in the 
spring of 1879, and graduated in 1881. 
Q. While you were at Harvard, did you ever dissect any 
babies? A. I did. 
Q. Where? A. In the dissecting-room of the Harvard 
Medical School. 
Q. Did you make any secret of it? A. What, sir? 
Q. Did you make any secret about doing it? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did 3'ou pay for it? A. I did. 
Q. How much did 3*011 pa3T? A. About a dollar. 
Q. How old was this bab3*? A. I should judge about a 
3*ear old. 
Q. Did anybody share with you in that? A. There was 
another gentleman and myself. 
Q. And he paid the same, I suppose? A. He paid the 
same. 
Q. And I suppose 3*011 dissected a portion of an adult? A. 
We were required to dissect three parts, according to the rule 
of the college. That counted for two parts for me, so that I 
had only one other part to dissect; I dissected that from a 
grown subject. 
Q. Half a bab3* was called one part? A. Half a baby 
was called two parts, and the whole of a grown person was 
called five parts. HOUSE—No. 300. 
3023 
1883.] 
Q. So that 3*011 dissected 3*0111’ part of a grown person and 
half of a bain*, and that made the three parts required? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. Wlio was demonstrator of anatoim* at that time? A. 
Dr. Beach. 
Q. Have 3*011 read this test,imon3* in this investigation ? A. 
Part of it. 
Q. Did 3*011 read his? 
Mr. Brown. He was not here as a witness. 
Gov. Butler. 1 know now why he was not called ; he went 
into the dissection of babies. 
Mr. Brown. 1 didn’t call witnesses except to meet Dix- 
well; that was the onty witness 3*ou put on in the first instance. 
This rebuttal is entirely new. If the committee rule against 
me, I don’t object to it. It covers a new period not mentioned 
b3* Dixwell at all. 
Q. Did 3*ou know where the bodies came from? A. No ; I 
did not. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Broivn. 
Q. Who was this gentleman who dissected with 3*011? A. 
I think his name was Manton. 
Q. Do you know where he was from? A. I think he was 
from Boston ; I think his home is in Boston. 
Q. Do you know his full name? A. Walter Porter Man- 
ton, I think it was. 
Q. You think that child was about a year old? A. I think 
it was. 
Q. And when 3*011 sa3* that 3*011 dissected half of the child 
you mean you dissected one leg, one side, a shoulder, an arm 
and the head? A. A half right through. 
Q. Did you have the entire head? A. No, sir; we both 
had part. 
Q. You both worked on the head. And you graduated in 
1881? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Well, do you consider you treated that child in a way to 
offend public sentiment? A. No, sir. 
Q. You did not? A. No, sir. 
Q. Everything was done properly and decorously as it could 
be in a dissecting-room, was it not? A. As far as I know, 
sir. 3024 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. You never had any reason to believe to the contrary? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. And if the body of any person was to be subjected, under 
the law, to dissection in the interest of science, can you con- 
ceive of any way it could have been done better than at Harvard 
College, at the time }'ou were there? A. During the dissect- 
ing part I should say I could not. 
Q. Of course that is all you refer to now. And your answer 
is that you cannot. A. I cannot. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) What was done with what you cut 
off? A. Well, there were receptacles there for it to be thrown 
into, and I don’t know what became of it afterwards. 
Q. Did you see others dissecting bodies there? A. I did. 
Q. Children’s bodies? A. No, sir. 
Testimony of Robert L. Robbins (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Dr. Robbins, arc you connected with medical institu- 
tion? A. I am connected with the Boston Dental College. 
Q. (By Mr. Chester.) What is the full name of the wit- 
ness? A. Robert L. Robbins. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) The Boston Dental College. How 
long have you been connected with it? A. Since its incorpora- 
tion, sixteen years ago. 
Q. Did your college ever have any bodies from Tewksbury? 
A. Yes, sir. \ 
Q. When did you fiiust commence having them? A. The 
first of my knowledge is in 1875. One body, I think, came from 
there then ; and one in 187G, I know, came from there. 
Q. Any more? A. I am not conscious that there were an}' 
more from Tewksbury to the college. 
Q. How many did you have, sir? 
Mr. Brow'n. Now, I pray the judgment of the committee. 
This committee has already ruled, in two cases, that they would 
not go into the matter of from other colleges. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no; not from other colleges. 
Mr. Brown. That is, from another institution. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no; oh, no. What you mean to say is 
that I should not go into getting bodies from other places. 
The Chairman. What is the question ? 
Gov. Butler. My question is — I changed it — how many 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3025 
the}' had had in all; not where they got them from — in order 
to be sure. Because, you will observe, the peculiar wording of 
his answer. He says he is “ not conscious.” If he didn’t have 
any more I can stop ; if he did I can find out where. 
Mr. Brown. Well, put the question and I will waive the 
objection. 
Q. How many did you have in all? A. We rarely have 
more than one ; we have had two in one year and in some years 
none. For the last eight years it probably amounted to some 
half a dozen. I think not more. 
Q. Any record of them? A. What, sir? 
Q. Any record of them? A. I have two bills in my pocket 
which I suppose came from there ; that is all the record I have, 
sir. 
Q. And when you speak of two bills, you mean two bills 
that came from there? A. I suppose so. For one I have no 
doubt it came from the college ; and the other I have no doubt 
it came from there. Usually the dean of the college attended 
to that matter, and simply presented the bill to me as treasurer, 
and I would pay the bill. 
Q. Did you have the dean here this morning? A. Dr. 
Follett? I don’t know. 
Q. Well, wasn’t he here? 
Mr. Brown. Dr. Talbot. 
Gov. Butler. Was he called? I summoned one. I sum- 
moned one and he said he didn’t know, and I let him go. I 
wanted to know if he was the man. 
Q. Did you receive the bodies ? A. No, sir. I simply paid 
the bills as treasurer. 
Q. Will you let me see those bills? A. Yes, sir. [Pro- 
ducing receipts.] There, is one that came from there, although 
it is not so stated. 
Q. This was December? A. The 21st. 
Q. Are these two that came from Tewksbury? A. No, 
sir ; only one came from Tewksbury ; the other came from the 
dean, and he presented the bill and I paid it. 
Gov. Butler. Well,.I will put in this bill first. 
Mr. Brown. Let me see it first, please. 
Gov. Butler. Yes. Then the next — I want to find — we 
have had another gentleman who said he went up there and got 
one for the college through Dr. Wheelwright. 
Mr. Brown. What is that? 3026 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
The Witness. Dr. Wetherbee, the president. 
Q. With his approval? A. With his approval. 
Q. And that is much later than 1876? A. No; 1876. 
Q. But there was a young doctor here from the insane as}’- 
lum yesterday who testified that he went up to Tewksbury, got 
one, and delivered it to an undertaker— A. I know nothing 
about it, sir ; I never received any myself. I looked carefully 
over m3’ books and over my' fde of bills, and those are the only7- 
two entries from there. There are other entries. We have had 
other bodies, but not from there. 
Q. [Referring to a receipt.] Well, where did this one come 
from? A. I don’t know, sir; the dean presented that bill, 
and it being the same charge I supposed, I had reason to believe 
it came from Tewksbury ; that is all I know about it. 
Q. Who is J. A. Follett? A. He is our dean. 
Q. And 3’ou paid the bill for the college, and he receipted 
the bill? A. Yes, sir; the bill was approved when presented 
to me, and I paid it. I know nothing more. 
Q. [Referring to first receipt.] This is the other one that 
came from Tewksbury’ ? A. The other one came from Tewks- 
buiy. This was presented b}7 the dean. 
Gov. Butler. [Reading.] “Amount paid for subject, 
‘ 14.’ ” The item of $2.42 is for other matter. The witness is 
yours, Mr. Brown. 
Q. How long have you been connected with the dental col- 
lege? A. Since its organization, sixteen years ago. I was 
one of the corporators. 
Q. Now, let us see exactly what your duties are. You are 
simply treasurer? A. Treasurer; that is all. 
Q. You don’t attend to dental college matters of this kind 
personally? A. Not at all. 
Q. Not at all? A. Not as an officer. 
Q. And you have no knowledge as to where any of this ma- 
terial came from, except hearsay? A. Nothing more than 
that the doctor presented to me the bills. 
Q. That one bill having been approved in that way, you in- 
ferred it came from Tewksbury. You have no means of know- 
ing that it came from Tewksbury? A. No, sir; I have no 
means of telling, except my inference from the charge. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3027 
Q. Now, then, this Dr. Follett is also an officer of the insti- 
tution, is he not? A. He is the dean ; the professor. 
Q. How long has he been connected with it? A. Well, he 
has been connected with it the last three years, but lie has been 
connected really with the college since its organization. He 
was dean some years ago. 
Q. Well, as treasurer of the college, you know something of 
what is going on, and how the college is used for the purpose of 
dissecting human bodies? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you allow parties from outside to come in there and 
dissect bodies which are not paid for by the institution? A. 
No, sir ; not that I know of. . 
Q. Was there ever, to your knowledge, a bofly brought into 
that institution for the purposes of dissection that was not paid 
for by the institution ? A. I am not conscious of it. 
Q. And your institution gave a bond to the trustees at 
Tewksbur}r to cover the delivery of any bodies received for 
anatomical purposes? A. Yes; I think so. 
Gov. Butler. I object. The bond will show for itself. 
Mr. Brown. The bond is in. 
Gov. Butler. Then there is no occasion to ask about it. 
Mr. Brown. I want simply to know if it is within his know- 
ledge that they gave it. The bond is in the case, and has been 
put into the report. 
Gov. Butler. Why is it of the slightest consequence whether 
it is in or not ? 
Mr. Brown. I think it is. 
Gov. Butler. It won’t make the bond any more or any less. 
Mr. Brown. No ; but here are witnesses who have testified 
— there has one undertaken to testify that a man by the name 
of Manning came to this institution and delivered a bodj', and 
that, in the absence of any officer of the college he paid for it, 
and an officer of the college subsequently reimbursed him, pay- 
ing him $14 — that he and some other young men were there. 
Gov. Butler. How does the fact whether there was a bond 
there touch that? 
Mr. Brown. Because the date of the bond covers that. 
The Chairman. I suppose the bond must speak for itself.- 
Mr. Brown. The bond speaks for itself. But His Excel- 
lency intends to argue that, without any bond, they delivered a 
body to this institution. I want to show what the fact is. 3028 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. The question is knowledge, and he don’t 
show that knowledge. 
The Chairman. What is your question ? 
Mr. Brown. My question was this : He has testified that no 
person outside of the institution was allowed to bring a body 
there to dissect it. He answered that without objection. Now, 
I ask him if the college had given a bond to the trustees to cover 
all cases of delivery of bodies for anatomical purposes. 
The Chairman. He cannot qualify the bond. 
Mr. Brown. He cannot qualify the bond ; but if it is within 
his knowledge that such a bond had been given, it tends to show 
that he and the officers were acting in good faith. 
Gov. Butler. Acting in good faith doing what? 
Mr. Brown. Doing this business. This young man Smith 
testified that he had procured a body for this college through 
Mr. Tinkham. He said afterwards he didn’t know, anything 
about it. I want to show that everything that came there came 
under a bond. 
Gov. Butler. That statement of the evidence is about as 
correct as usual. The young man Smith says he is a graduate 
of Harvard College ; that he was in the employ of the State 
four years. He is now over in the McLean Asylum as a sur- 
geon, and the only thing I know against him is that he graduated 
at the medical school of Harvard College. He testified dis- 
tinctfy that he went up to get a body by an arrangement with 
Dr. Wheelwright; and he did get it, and delivered it to the 
undertaker, with the understanding it was to go to the dental 
college. I don’t know whether it went to the dental college or 
not, nor I don’t care. He got it without an3r bond, and not 
under any bond; and it wasn’t delivered to anybody who had 
given a bond, and that was only two or three years ago. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; you have already admitted 
the dental college gave a bond, and you say it was delivered to 
them. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; I am not upon whether the dental 
college gave any bond. This wasn’t under any bond ; this 
wasn’t upon any requisition of the denial college. This was 
upon the requisition of Dr. Wheelwright; and I put in that Dr. 
Wheelwright was not teaching anatom}7, and had no more right 
to any bodies any more than anybody else; and how that con- 
tradicts that young man, I don’t know. Then, there was another 
case, where Manning knocked at the door, and inquired if any- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3029 
body wanted a body, pretty much as he would have inquired, 
“ Do you want any apples here to-day ?” And they did want a 
body ; and the students made up a purse, and bought it, and 
used it; and afterwards the college reimbursed them for it. 
That is one other of these cases. That was not under any bond, 
nor delivered under any bond. It was bought in the market for 
$15, and hasn’t been credited for only $10, if it was credited at 
all. 
Mr. Brown. It is just as I supposed it was. His Excellency 
intends to argue that the body to which Bacon referred as having 
been delivered to the dental college by Manning, and the body 
that one Smith testified to, — he proposes to claim that both 
those were delivered without any bond; just as I supposed. 
Now, Smith testified in the first place that he didn’t know any- 
thing about an}' arrangement of Dr. Wheelwright with the dental 
college. All he knew was that Dr. Wheelwright succeeded, and 
he assisted, in getting a body delivered by the undertaker here 
in Boston to the dental college. 
Gov. Butler. No, no. 
Mr. Brown. He never saw the body. 
Gov. Butler. No, no, no. 
Mr. Brown. He said he went to Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. He says it was delivered. 
Mr. Brown. I submit if you say it was otherwise turn to 
the record and show it. 
Gov. Butler. He said he delivered it to the undertaker, and 
that is all he knew about it. If you think a moment — 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon; he said he didn’t know 
anything about it, and that he never saw the body. 
Gov. Butler. He saw the coffin it was in. 
Mr. Brown. Then you took him up and asked him if he 
went to Tewksbury to get a body, and he said he did. He 
never saw the body, and never knew anything about it. 
Gov. Butler. But he got a coffin with it in. 
Mr. Brown. And if His Excellency now claims, just as I 
supposed when I was on my feet before, and intends to argue, 
that these two bodies were delivered by the authorities at 
Tewksbury in violation of law, no bond having been given, I 
think it is competent for me to show, not only that there was a 
bond, but that there never was any body dissected at this insti- 
tution, delivered from Tewksbury, that was not delivered to the 
institution with the understanding that it came upon a bond. 3030 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Whether it was right or not is another question. His Excellency 
claims there should be a bond with every bod}’. 
Gov. Butler. I do. 
Mr. Brown. Other lawyers who are eminent in the profes- 
sion, sa}r that in the case of an incorporated college, under this 
statute, there is no need for a bond at all; that the bond is only 
to be required when the body is to be delivered to a physician or 
surgeon. Now, in view of the fact that His Excellency claims 
he intends to argue that wa}’, I ask the question. 
Gov. Butler. What question ? 
Mr. Brown. Why, the last question. 
The Chairman. The question, as I remember it, is whether 
the college intended that the bond should cover everything; the 
bond must speak for itself. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, if these people knew they 
should give a bond for every bod}T, they are liable under the 
law, provided the institution gave the bond at all. 
The Chairman. Of course, and have been for three months. 
Mr. Brown. Now, that is just the question I want to ask 
this witness; how he understands it,—a question of good faith. 
The Chairman. The question is how he understands the 
law. 
Mr. Brown. The question is how he understands the law, or 
the whole transaction; whether he understood that if the 
bodies came there under these circumstances they were covered 
by the bond. 
. Gov. Butler. The difficulty with all that is, that this man 
says he don’t know anything about it; he was not the receiver of 
them, and don’t know how they came nor when they came ; all 
he knew, he paid the bills. 
Mr. Brown. What did you put him on for, then? I will 
take His Excellency’s statement of the evidence and dismiss the 
witness, — that the witness don’t know anything about it. 
The Chairman. Call 3’our next, then. I should like to in- 
quire whether the bonds have yet been extended on the record ; 
I should like to find them. 
Mr. Brown. They were put into the hands of the stenog- 
rapher. 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
3031 
Testimony of Arthur H. Wilson (sworn). 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 
Q. Are you connected with any medical institution in this 
city? A. I am. 
Q. What? A. College of and surgeons. 
Q. How long has that been running? A. That has been 
running three years ; about three years. 
Q. About three years? A. Three years in November, No- 
vember, 1883, since it was incorporated. 
Q. What position do you hold? A. Iam the teacher of 
anatomy. 
Q. Do you know about what bodies come to your institution? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where from? A. Most of them from Tewksbury. 
Q. How many have you had within the last three years? A. 
We have had eleven bodies from Tewksbury the last two years. 
Q. The last two }'ears? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Beginning when and ending when? A. Beginning with 
January, 1882, and ending with March or April; March, I 
should sa}r, 1883. 
Q. Who did you receive them from? A. We received 
them from the institution. 
Q. Institutions don’t do much in this way ; does 
it, I suppose. A. Well, do you mean who did we make our 
arrangement with? 
Q. Yes, sir. A. With Thomas J. Marsh, Jr. 
Q. Whom did you pay for them? A. Thomas J. Marsh, 
Jr. 
Q. How much apiece? A. Sixteen dollars. 
Q. Got a receipt? A. I have not; the treasurer pays the 
bills; I presume he has a receipt. That, however, I can’t 
answer for. 
Q. You know what you were to pay for and what you did? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Gov. Butler. That is all. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. How do you know he paid $16, then, if you didn’t pay 
for them ? A. I don’t actually know that anything has been 
paid for the bodies. 
Q. Why did you testify that $16 was paid? 3032 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Let him finish his answer. 
A. Because that was the price which we agreed to pay for 
the bodies. 
Q. Precisely. A. And I have no doubt it was paid. 
Q. Whether it was paid or not, you don’t know? A. I am 
as sure about it as about most things. 
Q. I am asking what }tou knew about it, sir. A. I know 
the bill for last }Tear was paid, and I think this one. 
Q. You don’t know anything about what was paid. A. I 
have just testified we agreed to pay $16, and I have no reason 
to believe anything less was paid. 
Q. And }7ou don’t mean to testify has been paid, 
of 3Tour personal knowledge, do 3'ou? A. What do you mean 
b3r that question? 
Q. You know what personal knowledge means? A. I 
haven’t seen any money paid; no, sir. 
Q. And if 3Tou have any information upon the subject it is 
something which has been told 3*ou? A. I have some per- 
sonal knowledge of quite a number of things I have not seen, 
however. 
Q. Well, if 3rou have any information upon this subject it is 
that which has been told you, isn’t it? A. Amr information 
upon the subject? Oh, no; it is not any information upon the 
subject that has been told me. As to the information about the 
price and about who to deal with and all that, I had direct from 
Mr. Marsh himself. 
Q. If 3Tou have an3r information upon the subject as to how 
much has been paid, it has been told 3*011, has it not? A. Yes, 
it has, of course. 
Mr. Brown. That is all. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Are 3*011 on the board that pur- 
chases the supplies? 
Mr. Brown. I didn’t open that. 
Gov. Butler. Why, 3'es, 3rou did ; 3*ou have gone into the 
source of his knowledge. 
The Witness. A. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. He says he is not on the board, so that is the 
end of that. 
Gov. Butler. That is all, sir ; I sha’n’t have to trouble 3*ou 
aii3* longer. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3033 
Testimony of Lorenro S. Fairbanks (recalled). 
Direct examination by Goo. Butler. 
Q. Have you examined the testimony of Mr. Charles B. 
Marsh about the erasures and in relation to your finding them? 
A. Yes, sir ; I don’t know that I have seen all of it. The 
testimony of dayT before yesterday ? 
Q. Yes. A. I have read all of it that was published in 
the Globe ; I have not seen the official report. 
Q. Have you your memorandum of what you took, if you 
looked over the book, in regard to that? A. I looked over 
the books with reference to the number of erasures he has 
against charges, etc. ; that is, with reference to the practice of 
erasing. 
Q. With reference to his saying that his practice was to 
erase, to charge, and then, if more came in, to erase and put it 
down ; and then, if there was more paid out, to erase once 
more and alter that? A. Yes; I looked over specially with 
reference to that. 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
Gov. Butler. I want the judgment of the committee on 
that. 
Mr. Brown. We have got a newspaper here — 
Gov. Butler. No, we haven’t. 
Mr. Brown. That this witness seems to read ; and he pro- 
poses to enlighten his judgment by that newspaper and then 
come in here and testify. 
The Witness. Not by any means. 
Mr. Brown. That is what the witness says ; that the only 
report of the evidence he read was in a newspaper called the 
Globe. Now, if that is a reading of the record which will 
qualify a man to contradict a witness I should like to know* it, 
because I have some newspapers interested in this matter. 
The Witness. That is not it at all. 
Gov. Bun er. This is it. He read the testimony of Charles 
B. Marsh where he testified to his habit of erasure. He then, 
at m3' request, examined to see if that was a habit, or whether 
it was simply to evade my question. 
The Chairman. Now, what is the specific question you 
wish to put ? 
Gov. Butler. My' question is: Did you look over the 
books to see whether the habit of keeping them was to put 3034 
charitablf: institutions. 
[Apr. 
down an amount; then, if there was an}' change in the amount 
by money being paid in, to erase the original amount and put a 
new amount in in the place where that erasure was ; then, if 
there was an}" payments made and a settlement was made at 
the end, to erase that amount and put in the last amount which 
the settlement found due. Whether the books show him, as an 
expert, that that was the way the}' were kept; because, I didn’t 
believe, and I don’t believe anybody else believed the books 
could be kept that way, unless you kept it on a board and had 
plenty of space to plane off. I want to show it was impossible 
to keep a book that way on pretty thin paper, as this is. 
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. This witness has stated under oath that the 
only knowledge he has of the testimony of Charles Marsh was 
what he read in the Globe. 
The Chairman. I don’t think he can ask anything about the 
Globe, but he can ask what the fact is, if he has re-examined the 
books, without reference to his testimony. 
Mr. Brown. But the only knowledge of what Charles Marsh 
said is what he found in the Globe; that is what he said. 
The Witness. No, sir; I will state how it is, if the cha;r- 
man will allow. 
Mr. Brown. State how what is? 
The Witness. How I came to do this. 
The Chairman. Let us hear what you have to say, Mr. 
Fairbanks. 
Mr. Brown. The question is what knowledge has he got of 
what Charles Marsh testified to? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no; I haven’t asked that question and 
don’t intend to. 
Mr. Brown. I know you haven’t, but I think that is just the 
thing ; he should show how he got his knowledge as to what 
Charles Marsh did testify to. 
The Chairman. If he can contradict Charles Marsh’s last 
testimony he has a right to. 
Mr. Brown. Very true ; but he can’t contradict it till he 
knows what it is ; and, if he hasn’t had anything but a news- 
paper report, will the committee allow him to inform himself by 
a newspaper report and then contradict a newspaper report? 
The Chairman. No ; I don’t think they will. 
Mr. Brown. Th£t is precisely the condition of things. 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3035 
The Witness. I think I can clear that all up, if I am allowed 
to state it. 
Mr. Brown. Have you an}’ knowledge of the record except 
what is contained in the newspaper? 
Gov. Butler. Wait a moment, please. The witness was 
wanting to answer the chairman when you interrupted. Now 
[to the witness], won’t you state exactly what you have done 
and what conclusions you have come to. Let Marsh’s testimony 
take cai’e of itself in view of your own. 
The Chairman. What you have done to meet the testimony 
of Mr. Marsh as to erasures on the inmates’ cash-book? 
The Witness. Not how I obtained any knowledge of what 
was wanted? 
The Chairman. No ; not how you obtained any knowledge 
whatever. 
The Witness. [Reading from memorandum.] I examined 
the inmates’ cash— 
Mr. Brown. Wait a moment! 
The Chairman. Before reading, tell us what process you have 
been through? 
Gov. Butler. What you have done. 
The Witness. I have examined the inmates’ cash-books, Nos. 
1 and 2. 
Q. (By the Chairman.) When did you do that? A. 
Yesterday ; Nos. 1 and 2, as I call them : I call the last two 
Nos. 1 and 2, because they have been called so through the in- 
vestigation. There is a previous one I don’t consider. And I 
examined them in reference to the practice of making charges 
in pencil-mark, and then, in course of settlement, whether the 
party was discharged or died or was paid off, of deducting 
these charges and erasing or not erasing the amount to corres- 
pond, through those two books. 
The Chairman. Do you object to that, Mr. Brown ? 
Mr. Bro-svn. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Upon what ground? 
Mr. Brown. It is not in contradiction of Charles Marsh in 
any way, shape or manner; and Ilis Excellency cannot find a 
syllable in the record to that effect; if he can I should be very 
glad to see it and I will then admit it without objection. 
Gov. Butler. You know and the committee knows. 
Mr. Brown. You say you know, but you cannot find it. 3036 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. I am not going to look; I know what is 
there. 
Mr. Brown. I know it is not there, and you can’t find it; if 
you could you would. 
Gov. Butler. I haven’t tried to find it; I have hardly 
looked at the record once ; I have left that to other people. 
Mr. Brown. Let somebody else find this, then. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t want them to. The committee knows 
what he testified to, the chairman of the committee knows, and 
there isn’t a man here who doesn’t know that he testified that 
his method was this at sometimes, — not sometimes, but gener- 
ally,— sometimes he did it another way, — when an inmate 
came in to put down his cash; then, if any more came in, to 
scratch out that and put down the added number over that; 
then, if there was anything paid out to him, which he kept by 
pencil-marks, twenty cents and twenty-five cents and seventeen 
cents, when he came to settle he scratched out all there was be- 
fore and put down the amount settled upon, and then he crossed 
that out and that settled the account. Now, I want to prove 
that no man ever did or ever could keep an account that way, 
and he has not done so there. 
Mr. Murphy. I remember, Mr. Chairman, his testifying to 
that fact; I remember it distinctly. 
Mr. Brown. I should be very glad to have the gentleman 
find it. 
Mr. Murphy. I don’t want to go through about three thou- 
sand pages to find it; I can trust my memory, because I thought 
at the time — 
Mr. Brown. He only testified day before yesterday, and 
you can be excused from looking through the first two thousand 
pages to begin with. 
The Chairman. I understand it this way : that Mr. Fairbanks 
testified to fifty-four cases of erasures, and he went into it in 
detail, spending a day. Then Mr. Marsh came in, day before 
yesterday, to answer that testimony of Mr. Fairbanks. Now, 
Mr. Fairbanks comes in to reply to Mr. Marsh. Well, that 
seems to me to be competent. 
Mr. Putney. I think, Mr. Chairman, the evidence is as the 
gentleman on my left [Mr. Murphy] has stated it. 
Mr. Murphy. I remember it without the slightest doubt. 
Mr. Putney. That that was his habit of keeping books; 
making erasures, and adding on or subtracting from, as occa- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3037 
sion required. It struck me, at the time, as a very funny way, 
to say the least, of keeping books. 
[The question was admitted by a unanimous vote of the com- 
mittee.] 
The Witness. Number of names in the inmates’ cash-books, 
marked “paid” or “died,” or ruled off as settled, against 
which there are charges of partial payments, but no erasures or 
alterations of amounts: Book No. 1, 31 ; Book No. 2, 522. 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Chairman, this isn’t in reply to what 
Mr. Marsh testified to. 
The Chairman. No ; 1 think Mr. Marsh’s testimony was as 
to the 54 cases. 
Mr. Brown. As to the 54 cases and nothing else ; and now 
he has opened the whole case of the 3,611 entries. 
The Chairman. I don’t think it is competent to go beyond 
the 54 entries. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; he went into the question of how 
he kept these books, and, instead of being kept by erasure, as 
lie said it was, I want to show that it was not, and that the 
erasures are only 54 out of 500. That is not a way a man 
keeps books ; that is all. He kept it right the other wa}r, Mr. 
Chairman ; he kept it without erasure, and only erased either 
with acid or something else, where there was occasion to erase for 
a given purpose which I won’t characterize now. It is to con- 
tradict him, expressly. To get away from my questions he said 
that was his habit of keeping books ; then I shew him where 
he had put it with plus and,plus, and he said he had learned bet- 
ter lately, and that was his habit before. That was simply, in 
my opinion, a story to meet the occasion ; and I want to show 
it was a false story and that that was not the habit, that was 
not the manner in which he kept this book at all. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Fairbanks was produced 
here as an expert in all sorts of things, book-keeping by double 
entry and single entry and all the other entries; and an expert 
in handwriting; and several other qualifications he had ; and he 
went on, and he went through all these three cash-books, and, as 
Mr. Records said this morning, there are upwards of 3,600 en- 
tries. 
Gov. Butler. He says precisely different; that isn’t true, a 
word of it. 
Mr. Brown. He went through that entire list from beginning 
to end. 3038 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. He did not. 
Mr. Brown. And he found what he called 54 mistakes. We 
went on and we showed that out Of these fifty-four mistakes this 
omniscient expert made 36 errors himself in the 54, and that is 
all to which we ever replied. We showed that in our records 
there were only 14 out of the 54 errors alleged by Mr. Fair- 
banks in which he had got himself anywhere near the mark ; all 
the others were mistakes, blunders, — wilful blunders ; because 
he hadn’t pursued the history of the inmate to find whether his 
cash had been turned over to the Commonwealth or not. And, 
if that was not enough to disqualify him not only as an expert 
but as a witness, then 1 certainly don’t know anything that can 
disqualify a man from testifying. Mr. Marsh comes in with a 
memorandum containing nothing but the memorandum of Mr. 
Fairbanks’s testimony, as to those 54 entries in the cash-book, 
nothing else. He testifies and explains those, and you all re- 
member the result. Now, His Excellency, in cross-examina- 
tion, asked Mr. Marsh some questions, and Mr. Marsh said that 
he sometimes made these erasures after he had paid out money, 
erased the figures indicating the original amounts and put in a 
smaller amount, rubbing out his pencil mark at the same time, 
so that the new entry in ink should represent the actual balance 
at that time. Then, he went on, and he said in cross-examina- 
tion that he had made another entry, sometimes, but not invari- 
ably,— never testified invariably. Why, the very entries to 
which he referred, several in the list of the 54, were entries 
which would have contradicted him if he had so testified, that 
that was his universal habit, and he must have been a fool to 
have looked the entry right in the face and made the statement 
which His Excellency said he did. Now, I assert that His Ex- 
cellency nor any member of this committee, can find that 
Charles Marsh testified that that was his invariable custom ; and 
that is why 1 was so emphatic at the outset. 1 saw exactly 
what His Excellency was trying to do. Nowt, he wants to go 
on, claiming that the witness has said that he universally and 
invariably did a certain thing ; he is [going to take other entries 
which have never been called in question, for the purpose of 
showing that he made a mistake in his cross-examination ; that 
is all. That is the whole of it. Now, it is opening this matter 
entirely anew, entries that wye have never heard anything about; 
and, as 1 say to the committee, if 3rou will have the kindness to 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3039 
look at Charles Marsh’s testimony, you will find that he didn’t 
testify that that was his universal practice. 
Gov. Butler. I never said he did. 
Mr. Brown. Then it is not competent. 
Gov. Butler. Very well; that is another matter. 
Mr. Brown. If he sometimes did and sometimes didn’t, you 
must confine yourself to the cases where lie said he did when he 
didn’t. You can’t go into all these outside entries. If you can 
find a case where he said that, having had a certain entry made 
in the first instance, that then lie disbursed certain sums of 
mone}’, in small or large amounts, as the case may be, and, 
after that money was disbursed, he then erased and put the 
actual balance in the new entry, erasing the original one, — if 
you can find a single instance where he testified to that, and then 
you can show that he didn’t do it, that is rebuttal, otherwise it 
isn’t. It would have been, perhaps, if he had testified that that 
was his universal custom ; but, His Excellency having with- 
drawn that proposition, that he testified it was his universal cur- 
tom,— the only thing I contended for when I was first upon the 
floor, — it now comes back simply to this : That he must take 
an instance where Charles Marsh said he did do that particular 
thing, and he must confine himself to contradicting him and 
showing that in that particular instance he didn’t do it. And, 
if he can show an instance of that kind, I will withdraw the 
objection. 
Gov. Butler. There have not been so many .misstatements 
made, and that is saying a great deal, in the same space of time 
since we began here, as there have been in the last fifteen min- 
utes. 
Mr. Brown. You mean during the last minute. 
Gov. Butler. The first thing, he said that these three books 
have been gone through with, by Mr. Fairbanks, and so many 
thousand entries upon them, and in those he only found fifty-four 
mistakes. Now. this first cash-book has never been examined 
by anybody, being in a condition not to be examined, as any- 
body sees. Nobody has done that at all; but he has had these 
names counted by a rather pretty-looking young lady here ; and 
she swore — 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon ; Mr. Records counted these. 
You have got a man for a woman ; you are all mixed up,—mixed 
the babies up. 
Gov. Butler. Assuming Mr, Records,— I don’t care who,— 3040 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
lie had them counted in order to show how many entries Mr. Marsh 
swore about, when lie knew,— no, he didn’t know ; 1 take it all 
back ; he isn’t capable of knowing, — when he ought to have 
known that that book never had been used at all by anybody in 
this investigation. It was done simply to deceive. Now, then, 
these two books. Mr. Marsh says : “ I kept these books in two 
ways. My usual way of keeping them was, when an inmate 
came in to put down the cash that he had ; if anything more 
was added after that, I scratched out the original entry and put 
down the new amount, adding the two. Then, when I came to 
settle, if I had paid out anything, I then, my usual way was, 
to scratch out the entry as it stood and put down another entry 
of the settled casli with the deductions.” Well, he said the 
other way he had was to put down plus, the first cash, 
and then, sometimes, and that was only lately in the 
book, he said, sometimes plus so much, plus so much, 
according to the number of entries of cash that were added. 
And, you will remember what I said, “ Then you keep 
your book by a sort of double entry, scratching out and 
adding.” You remember that. Now, I didn’t believe then, I 
don’t believe now, that a man can keep his books in that method, 
or that he has done it in that way ; and I asked Mr. Fairbanks 
to look this over and see if that is the way that he has kept this 
book, the way he swore he did, by scratching out and putting 
in, at least twice erasing; and I am going to show that there, 
are only a small number of erasures that can be found. That 
is the very point, that there is a large number of settlements 
and only a small number of erasures, so that the books were not 
kept in that form. It was an impossible form ; and I am going 
to show that it would have been impossible, for in the three 
scratches he would have scratched clear through the paper. 
There is one thing that has not been adverted to b}T Mr. Brown, 
because I want to treat the committee fairly, that detracts from 
the weight of what Mr. Fairbanks will say. When I speak of 
erasures, and when he spoke of erasures, we were only speaking 
of erasures made with an erasing knife or a common knife, 
scratching. 
Mr. Brown. That is, we are to take that as your interpreta- 
tion of the record. 
Gov. Butler. That is what we were speaking of, because 
nothing had been said at that time about acid. What would 
take away from the weight of the testimony is, that if it was 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3041 
(lone carefully with acid, he might have done it over a great 
many times ; and if he had got pure acid, pure whity acid, so as 
not to have disturbed the paper, he could have kept it that way. 
But he didn’t put in the acid business at all; lie only put in the 
erasure. Acid isn’t an erasure; erasure means rubbing or 
scratching out. But, while that may detract from the weight of 
the testimony,— and, if he chooses to make that explanation, I 
am willing,— it don’t alter its competency. 
[The committee voted unanimously to admit the testimony.] 
The Chairman. Go ahead ; there is nobody objects. 
Gov. Butler. Now, go on, Mr. Fairbanks. 
The Witness. Cases in which there are erasures of amounts, 
but no charges : Book No. 1, 16 ; Book No. 2, 15,—total, 31. 
Cases in which there are both charges and erasures: Book No. 
1, 2; Book No. 2, 11, — total, 13. Cases in which additional 
amounts received after the first entry are entered in figures at 
the left, right, above or below, and when entered at the left 
there is usually the sign plus between them : Book No. 1,3; 
Book No. 2, 21, —making 24. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Which is the largest number,—the 
erasures, or the putting in of plus, adding the figures? A. 
Cases in which there are erasures of amounts and no charges : 
erasures of the amounts, 31, in the two books; and, I think, 
the entries of figures, 24. 
Q. Twenty-four? A. That is, erasures of amounts where 
there are no charges. 
Q. Now, how many entries are there which you examined? 
A. Of the first number, 553 ; second number, 31 ; third num- 
ber, 13 ; fourth number, 24. 
Q. Showing, therefore, that there was of both sorts, 31 and 
24; 31 erasures out of the 500, and almost as many kept the 
other way ; and that was all out of the 541 ? Now, would it- be 
possible — A. 724. 
Q. Now, would it be possible — A. 621. 
Q. Now, would it be possible, Mr. Fairbanks,—take this leaf 
of the book, — assume a case, it is of no consequence which, — 
assume a case where an inmate came in with an amount, and 
that was put down ; and then the inmate received some money ? 
and then the first was scratched out and that was put down in 
its place ; and then, he had received money, so that on the 
settlement it would require a new amount to be added, and a 
third time it was scratched out and put down, — could that be 3042 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
done on that kind of paper? A. I should not think it could, 
without scratching it all through. 
Q. And wouldn’t it show plainly where the ink would blur? 
A. Yes. 
Q. Pounce or no pounce? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Is there any amount credited for tobacco sold, to the 
State? A. I think not. 
Gov. Butler. Mr. Chairman, the witness wants the privi- 
lege of correcting a statement that he made 3(5 wilful blunders 
out of the 54 cases, — a statement bv counsel. 
Mr. Brown. Nobody has said he did. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
Mr. Brown. Nobody has said he did make 36 wilful blun- 
ders. 
The Witness. Didn’t you say there were 36 errors out of 
the 54 ? 
Mr. Brown. I did, but I didn’t say they were wilful: I said 
tlmy might be charged to be wilful. 
The Witness. I should like to ask the chairman if there was 
any such testimony whatever. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t claim there was any testimoin’ that you 
made 36 wilful blunders. 
The Chairman. I think after the cross-examination, if the 
witness desires to make any statement, he may do so. 
Cross-examination by Mr. Brown. 
Q. Where is that paper which you have just used? A. That 
is it, sir. [Handing paper to Mr. Brown.] 
Q. Now, I want you to turn to every one of those 31 en- 
tries in Book No. 1. I don’t care how much time it takes. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes, you do ; you want it to take as much 
as 3'ou can. 
Mr. Brown. Not the slightest; but I don’t propose to have 
3'ou put in evidence and I not cross-examine your witness. You 
can’t play that on me again. [To the witness.] Turn to the 
first of the 31 entries in Book No. 1. 
Gov. Butler. Well, if the committee want to sit here and 
hear it, I have no objection, except I don’t think I can put in 
aii3T evidence. 
Q. Give us the first one, the name. A. I think the first 
one is Mary Bent. 
Q. What is the name ? A. Mary Bennett. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
3043 
Q. What is the amount? A. There is a charge there of 
seven, supposed to be seven cents ; and some under there. I 
don’t know whether the}r belong to that name or the name below. 
Q. Then, how do you know that this is an exception to Mr. 
Marsh’s rule, or whether it follows the rule, if 3*011 don’t know 
whether it is above or below? A. I don’t know; I simply 
know there is a charge on the line. 
Q. You don’t know whether it belongs to that line or the one 
under it? A. I don’t know whether those belong there. [Re- 
ferring to the book.] I know there is one there sufficient to 
count it, whether the others do or not. 
Q. That is to say, you find an original entiw of $7 ? A. No. 
Q. What is the original entry ? A. $3.32. 
Q. $3.32, and then in pencil how much? A. There is 7 on 
the same line. 
Q. Seven on the same line ; and you infer that means seven 
cents disbursed? A. Mr. Marsh — 
Q. I don’t ask you to state his testimony ; I want to know 
what you infer. A. That is the way I made it; all those that 
are marked in pencil at the left, I called charges. 
Q. Now, you don’t know whether there is another entry in 
pencil that belongs to that person, or whether there is not; you 
can’t tell which line it belongs to? A. There are some right 
underneath between the lines; they may belong to one and may 
belong to the other. 
Q. And you don’t know which? A. No. 
Q. Now, have you sworn which it belonged to? A. No; 
I didn’t intend to. 
Q. You have sworn it followed a rule? A. I swore that 
that is one of the entries where there was a change. 
Q. Where there isn’t any erasure? A. Where there is no 
erasure. 
Q. Do you know any reason why there should be an erasure 
there? A. I do not. 
Q. You do not? A. No, sir. 
Q. Now, take the next one. A. The next one is Julius 
Balch. 
Q. What is the original entry of cash there? A. Four 
dollars. 
Q. Has there been any erasure ? A. No. 
Q. What is charged in pencil? A. I can’t tell; I haven’t 
looked at that particularly. 3044 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. How do you know whether it follows the rule or is an 
exception, if you haven’t looked at it particularly? A. It 
would have taken me a week to have done it that way, footing 
it up. 
Q. So you did it in a sort of fast way? A. Certainly. 
Q. Is that it? A. I found charges there ; I didn’t stop to 
foot them up. 
Q. Now, did you do this any more accurately than you did 
this other work about which you testified; the 54 cases? A. 
You have charged me with being inaccurate ; I should like to 
know the facts, I should like to have the specifications. 
Q. Did you spend any more time on this than you did on 
these 54 cases — 
Gov. Butler [To the witness.] Wait till he gets through 
and you will have a chance. 
Mr. Brown. Where you made 36 mistakes out of the 54? 
A. I deny I made an}’ mistakes. Your witness has said I 
did ; I deny it. 
Q. Never mind what the witness said. Do you want to 
stand recorded as having denied that you made mistakes? If 
you do I am perfectly willing to leave it there. Now, go on 
with the next one. A. The next one is Jackson Butler. 
Q. What is the amount entered there? A. Seven dollars. 
Q. Do you find any charges there? A. Some charges in 
pencil. 
Q. How many? A. I don’t know. 
Q. Can’t you tell how many ? A. Not very well. 
Q. No erasure there ? A. They are under the other figures. 
You can count them for yourself about as well as I can. There 
are some, — that is all I know, that is all I looked for, — there 
are some charges. 
Q. Now, is that Charles Marsh’s handwriting? A. I think 
it is. 
Q. Do you know it is? A. No; I don’t. 
Q. Don’t you know that it is not? On your oath, don’t you 
know that it is not? A. I rather think it is not. 
Q. Take these two handwritings, — that being Charles 
Marsh’s, this register, — and don’t you know, on your oath, as an 
expert, that this is not his handwriting? A. I don’t think 
it is. 
Q. Then, very well ; and yet you come in here and you say 1883. 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
3045 
that Charles Marsh, on that book, has made all these mistakes? 
A. I have not said any such thing. 
Q. What did }rou say? A. I say I find the mistakes in the 
books. 
Q. Find mistakes in the books. A. I have said nothing 
about Charles Marsh. 
Q. Didn’t you hear His Excellency say that he claimed to 
contradict Charles Marsh ? A. I didn’t say that Charles Marsh 
made them. 
Q. Oh, it is a sort of combination for the purpose of decep- 
tion here, is it? A. I am not testifying against Charles 
Marsh. 
Q. You are testifying against some unknown man here? A. 
I am testifying against these books ; I don’t care who it goes 
against; it don’t make a particle of difference to me. 
Q. Now, find an entry in that book, if you can, in Charles 
Marsh’s handwriting, and then I will ask you about that 
Gov. Butler. You asked him for the first one, and he gave 
it to you. 
The Witness. I think the most of the names in this book 
were entered in somebodj' else’s handwriting. 
Q. I want you to find me a single entry in that book you 
have testified to, that is in Charles Marsh’s handwriting. A. 1 
don’t know that I can tell on the spot here. 
Q. Can you tell on any spot? A. Yes. 
Q. Can you tell on the spot where you were when you made 
that computation? A. Yes I can tell if 1 have some of Mr. 
Marsh’s handwriting ; I haven’t any here. 
Q. Here is a whole book before yon ? A. I don’t propose 
to testify in regard to handwriting here, if 1 can help it. It is 
simply to take up the time. 
Mr. Brown. I beg your pardon. 1 am going to ask the 
committee if they will stand this. 
The Witness. I can’t without examination ; a book is handed 
me on the stand — 
Q. 1 want to ask you this question : Is there a single entry 
in that book which you are now prepared to say is in Charles 
Marsh’s handwriting? A. I am prepared to say that I think 
that some of these entries of payments are in his handwriting 
and some of the names, but what ones I can’t say positivel\r; I 
am not positive about any of them. 
Q. And you are not prepared to say now that any of the 31 CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
3046 
[Apr. 
names are in his handwriting, which you say you found in this 
hook? 
Gov. Butler. He didn’t sajT he found 31. 
The Witness. I found those in that book, and I never 
looked to see whose handwriting they are in. 
Q. Never looked to see whose handwriting they were in? 
A. That was not a part of the investigation. 
Q. You were not instructed to do that? A. Nothing said 
about anybody. 
Q. Wait a moment; then, Mr. Fairbanks, if by your testi- 
mony or anything Ilis Excellency has said to this committee, 
they have been led to understand that your testimony in regard 
to this book is to contradict Charles Marsh, you want that taken 
back, don’t you? A. I don’t know that I have said anything 
that needs to be taken back. 
Q. Well, if anybody understands it to apply to him you 
want them now to be informed that you didn’t so intend it; is 
that it? A. Well, I really haven’t had any intention about it, 
in that respect. 1 scarcely thought of an individual; I looked 
at it as a matter of these books, without anjr reference to an 
individual. 
Q. You can answer my question, Mr. Fairbanks. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t think it is a proper question. 
Q. Did you intend that anything which you said in regard 
to this book should apply to Charles Marsh? A. Well, noth- 
ing— 
Q. Answer my question, yes or no, if you will. A. I had 
no intention in regard to it with reference to any particular per- 
son. 1 knew that that book was — 
Q. Then, certainly, 3rou didn’t with regard to Charles Marsh? 
A. That book was written in part by somebody else, to my 
knowledge, or ni}T belief. 
Q. Then you didn’t intend it to apply to Charles Marsh, did 
you? A. I have answered it in the only way I can answer; 
that 1 had no intention with regard to it. 
Q. No intention one way or the other. You didn’t know 
whose handwriting the entries were in. A. I didn’t think of 
it. 
Q. And, unless there are entries there in Charles Marsh’s 
handwriting, that don’t apply to him, your testimony don’t 
apply to him? A. That is a matter of opinion. 
Q. Isn’t that so? A. That is a matter of opinion. 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
3047 
Gov. Butler. That is a matter of argument; now, let us 
come to something of tact. 
Q. Now, let me have the book where you do find Charles 
Marsh’s handwriting. [Book handed to Mr. Brown.] Now, 
under this new state of things we skip over all this first state- 
ment and come down here to Book No. 2. A. That is Book 
No. 2. 
Q. Which is the one you have in your hand. [Book handed 
witness.] A. The one I have in my hand. 
Q. Now, turn to the first of the 522 entries in the handwrit- 
ing of Charles Marsh. A. The first one is on the first, page. 
Q. What is it? A. It is Richard Ashworth.* 
Q. Let me see it. [Examining entry.] There you find? 
A. T find figures in pencil, 14, which is one of the charges, as 
I have taken them. 
Q. And the original entry of cash was $1.80? A. Yes; 
1.80. 
Q. Now, without going through each, turn over a page or 
two. A. Robert Anns, the very next one, — three of them in 
succession, Robert Anns and Margaret Austin, three cases in 
which there are no erasures of amounts, and in which there are 
what I call charges to the left in pencil. That is the character 
of these cases. 
Q. Now, turn over a few pages and find another case. A. 
Well, under B, Bridget Burke, and then there is pencil without 
any erasure of the amount. 
Q. Was the red line made before the figures 2-1-6 or after? 
A. Well, I should not be willing to testify" on that either way. 
Q. Why not? A. I know what my belief is,- but that is 
not testimony". 
Q. Why wouldn’t you be willing to testify? A. Because I 
think it is very- difficult to say in regard to red ink, or black, 
which is written over the black ink when one is written and 
dried without blotting, and then putting a blotting-pad over 
them. 
Q. In other words, you are not able to tell; to put it curt- 
ly? A. To put it shortly; that is the plain substance of it, 
without an examination with a microscope. I am not certain I 
could tell in most cases by a microscope ; and, when one color 
is so strong as practically* to obliterate the other, or cover it, I 
should not be willing to hazard any statement that would be 3048 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
worth anything. My opinion might not be worth anything, or 
it might be, after a careful examination. 
Q. Now, turn to some of these entries where there are 
erasures of amounts and no charges? A. Well, there are a 
good many of them here; I don’t happen to run across them 
just now. Jane McGrath, 38,000 and something. 
Q. Well, now, Mr. Fairbanks, on your oath, are you aide to 
tell whether there have ever been any pencil-marks there which 
have been rubbed out? A. I can only say I can see no evi- 
dence of their being rubbed out. 
Q. You know perfectly well that a pencil-mark can be made 
on paper very readily, and very readily erased, so it can’t be 
seen, don’t you? A. I think it can sometimes be done; but 
in this book I can point out fifty that have been done where I 
can see it, and I can see nothing here. 
Q. Oh, yes ; 3 011 may do it very carelessly. A. Very care- 
fully. 
Q. And not rub it all out; but you understand perfectly 
well, and you have done it repeatedly, haven’t you, —you have 
perfectly erased a pencil-mark? A. No; I don’t know. 
Q. So that no trace of it could be seen? A. I doubt it; 
I doubt if a good hard pencil-mark can be rubbed out with a 
rubber, so as not to show the mark ; I don’t think it can be 
done. 
Q. If the pencil is so hard that the mark makes an indenta- 
tion in the paper, you could not remove the indentation ; but 
you could remove the pencil-mark? A. I don’t think 3-011 can, 
if it is pressed into the paper at all. 
Q. Let me see; are you an expert on this subject, also? 
A. I have done it all my life time, and 1 ought to know some- 
thing about it. 
Q. That is, 3-011 have been erasing entries all 3-0111- life? A. 
Yes; pencil-marks, rubbing out pencil-marks, a good many 
times, every year. A pencil-mark is pretty hard to rub out, so 
as not to damage the paper. 
Q. Take the next of the cases. 
Gov. Butler. What set of cases is that? You have had it 
where there were entries, and 3-011 have had it where there 
weren’t any charges, — those are the only two 3-011 have got. 
Mr. Brown. Entries where there are erasures of amounts, 
and no charges. 
The Witness. There are a good many of those; I don’t 1883. 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
3049 
readily run across them now, but I will find them. I presume 
they are some of these disputed cases. 
Gov. Butler. Margaret Willis, l think. 
The Witness. I will find some before l come to that, I think. 
Gov. Butler. Where there are erasures and no charges. 
The Witness. Well, Ellen Burns. 
Q. Let me see that one. [Book handed to Mr. Brown.] 
Have you a glass with you? A. I have not; I ought to have ; 
I don’t feel very positive about that. 
Q. Don’t feel positive about that one,‘although that is en- 
tered here? A. No, sir ; I didn’t say that. 
Q. And, if it is wrong, it is a mistake? A. I don’t know 
whether I put that in or not. 
Q. Go on to the next. A. Timothy Florence, alias Cronin, 
is a case of that kind. 
Q. Where is it? [Entry pointed out.] Now, Mr. Fair- 
banks, turn to some of the cases that you find in that volume 
where there are both erasures and charges. A. If I can go 
down to the lower room I can find on the table a memorandum 
of the names, and I can do it quicker than I can find it here. 
Q. I shan’t ask you for but a few more, and then l will leave 
it. Now turn, please, to where there are both charges and 
erasures. A. I say I can give you 11 of those, I suppose, 
from the memorandum lying on the table ; it is there now, with 
all the names. 
Q. I don’t ask you for the whole 11 ; just give me some of 
them. A. It will take me longer to find them here than it will 
to go down there after them. Mr. William Huntoon. 
Q. Let me see that. [Book handed Mr. Brown.] A. 
Amount, 4.56 ; some erasure, no charges. 
Q. Do you mean to say that there has not been an erasure 
of pencil-mark there? A. I think not; I can see no evidence 
of any erasure, holding it up to the light in this way [experi- 
menting] ; not the slightest. I don’t believe there has. 
Q. Have you ever examined it with a glass? A. No, sir. 
Q. Have not. You can’t see everything with those glasses 
of yours [referring to pair the witness wore], can you? A. I 
can’t when they act as they do now ; yes, I can see very clearly 
with those. 
Q. And you can’t see anything there ? A. I can’t see the 
sign of an erasure by rubbing, or anything else. 
Q. Now, let us turn over to a case in which additional 3050 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
amounts received after the first entry were entered in figures at 
the left, right, above or below. A. Well, here is one right 
before my eyes. 
Q. Book No. 2, is it? A. Bridget Harney; two amounts 
in one amount to the left, footed up and carried to the left; 
original amount $9. To the left plus $4 ; sign of equality $13. 
Q. Where is that? [Entry pointed out.] What do you 
say that is? A. $9, $4, $13; 9-(-4 = 13. 
Q. Does that mean plus, when it is on the left-hand side? 
A. It is on the left hand-side of one and on the right-hand 
side of the other. 
Q. Yes; but if you read it the other way it is 13 equals 4, 
plus 9. A. It does ; don’t it? 
Q. Very true; but which, now, do you say was made first? 
A. I don’t know which was made first. 
Q. Then, why do you say in this piece of paper, “ Cases in 
which additional amounts received after the first entry are en- 
tered in figures at the left,” if you don’t know which was 
entered first? A. Because that covers all the cases ; some- 
times at the left, sometimes at the right; sometimes above and 
sometimes below. That statement covers them all. 
Q. This was a ease where it was entered at the left, was it? 
A. Yes, sir ; certainly. 
Gov. Butler. I never knew plus was like a cipher, making 
a difference on which side it was put. 
Mr. Brown. That shows you are ignorant of some things 
yet. 
Q. Now, turn to another case. A. I can give you all the 
cases now. 
Q. I don’t care for all; I just want a few samples. Turn to 
another case. A. Well, perhaps you had better take them in 
order. 
Q. No ; I don’t want to take them in order. Skip a half- 
dozen, and then take one. I don’t want to follow your little 
arrangement. A I merely happened to write these names out 
for my own convenience. [Referring to memorandum which had 
been handed him.] I didn’t suppose it was necessary for me 
to bring them in here ; I didn’t suppose they were required. 
Charges and erasures, Dennis O’Callahan. 
Q. Now tell me where you find the plus there, to the right 
or left? A. I said charges and erasures. This comes under 
the head of charges and erasures. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3051 
Q. I don’t ask you for that; I ask you for cases in which 
additional amounts received after the first entr}r are entered in 
figures at the left, right, above or below. A. Excuse me ; I 
thought you were referring to this paper which I sent for. 
Q. 1 beg 3*0111* pardon; you are entirely mistaken. A. 
That was sent for ; and I thought, probably, you were going- 
on with it now. There is one with the word “and” be- 
tween, — 34.55 and $20. The name is Margaret Power. 
Gov. Butler. When shall I be permitted to go on with my 
case ? 
Q. 34.55 and 20, — there is no sign of equality there any- 
where? A. He has not put that in many cases. 
Q. Sign of addition, I should say. 
The Chairman. Can’t 3*011 shorten this a little? 
Mr. Brown. I am trying to. I have left out 600 of these 
entries this man swears to. 
The Chairman. Take one or two of the leading ones, and let 
the rest go. 
Mr. Brown. If I could only tell which led, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Those you deem the most important. 
Gov. Butler. He don't deem any of any importance ; that 
is the difficulty. 
Mr. Brown I didn’t hear what you said. 
Gov. Butler. I said he didn’t deem any of them of any 
importance. 
Mr. Brown. You don’t? 
Gov. Butler. You don’t. 
Mr. Brown. Because, if you mean you don’t, I am going to 
abandon this business. 
Gov. Butler. We will argue it to-morrow. There are two 
cases,—Silvina Sloan, $19 equals $17 plus $2. I don’t 
know whether it was made that way or not. 1 presume it was 
made the other way, — presume it was made backwards. I 
don’t know how it was made. It might be an addition to the 
original amount. He might make it plus to the left. 
Q. Now, to be brief, won’t you tell me how many of all the 
different natures, of your different classifications, 3*011 find in 
Book No. 2. 
Gov. Butler. Book No. 2? 
Mr. Brown. Book No. 2 ; how many changes of all kinds 
indicated in that sheet you find in Book No. 2. Take all the 
kinds indicated there. A. 569. 3052 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Q. 569, in Book No. 2 ; those are all, you say, in Charles 
Marsh’s handwriting? A. I didn’t say that. 
Q. What do you sa}r about it, now ; because he is the man 
you were called to contradict? A. I suppose that this entire 
book, or nearly all of it, is in his handwriting ; 1 don’t know 
that it is. 
Q. And that is all you can say, is it; simply you suppose? 
A. Yes. 
Q. You won’t swear to a single entry, will you? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Well, point to one you will swear to. A. Well, I think 
a majority of them are in his handwriting. 
Q. I want you to point to one you will swear to ; that is 
what I ask you ; I don’t ask you anything about majority. A. 
I am not prepared to swear to any of them. 
Q. Very well. Then, if those that you have pointed out in 
Book No. 1, and those which you point out in Book No. 2, 
should not any of them turn out to be in Charles Marsh’s hand- 
writing, you have made 621 mistakes, haven’t you, out of 621 ? 
A. No, sir ; in that case 1 have made no mistake. 
Q. No mistake then? A. How the question of the differ- 
ence of names can make me make a mistake, I don’t see. 
Q. Well, upon the theory that you are called here to con- 
tradict Charles Marsh, you would have made 621 mistakes, 
wouldn’t you ? A. I can’t comprehend — 
Q. Can’t you answer the question ? 
Gov. Butler. No ; because he says he can’t comprehend 
it. 
Mr. Bkown. Can’t comprehend it; then, certainly, he is 
excused. 
The Witness. 1 can’t comprehend how I should make a 
mistake, if it should turn out two or three persons wrote that 
book. 
Q. Not even if you were called to contradict Charles 
Marsh? A. That isn’t my business.• 
Q. I don’t ask you whether it was your business or not; 
your business is to answer my questions, if you can. A. That 
is asking me to decide, on the stand as a witness, a question 
of law. 
Q. What question of law? A. Whether this is evidence 
to contradict Marsh. 1 don’t think 1, as a witness, ought to 
answer that, Mr. Chairman, whatever my opinion is about it. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3053 
Q. You announced you are a member of the legal profession. 
A. Yes ; but I am not here to give a legal opinion. 
The Chairman. Your attack is upon the book, and not upon 
the man. 
Gov. Butler. Showing how the books are kept, and not 
who kept them. 
Q. If Charles Marsh didn’t make these entries you have 
made no attack upon Charles Marsh ? A. I don’t think I have 
made any attack upon Charles Marsh. 
Gov. Butler. But, as he swears he did keep that book, 
then, if there is anything wrong, it is an attack on Charles 
Marsh. That is all there is to that. 
The Chairman. [To the witness.] Make your explanation. 
The Witness. I think I am accused, in testifying in regard 
to the erasures in these books, I think I am charged here with 
making 36 mistakes out of 54. I am not aware that I have 
made one and I don’t know of one, and I haven’t heard any 
testimony which accuses me of making mistakes, except the 
general allegation of Mr. Marsh that I had made a large number 
of erroneous conclusions. Now, I should like to have that 
matter set right. I didn’t make any conclusions that I know of 
in regard to it. I testified to what was just before my eyes and 
at present I am not aware of a single error that I have made, 
and I call upon Mr. Charles Marsh to show me what mistakes 
I have made, and if I made any, I will acknowledge it upon the 
spot. 
The Chairman. It is all on the record. 
The Witness. I should like to have him put upon the stand 
and testify. 
Gov. Butler. You will pardon me, but life is short. 
The Chairman. You and he had better settle that out of 
court. Call the next witness, Governor. 
Testimony Of Lydia M. Warner (sworn). 
Q. Mrs. Warner, how long have you been engaged in taking 
care of children? 
Mr. Chester. What is the name of the witness? 
Q. What is your full name Mrs. Warner? A. Lydia M. 
Warner. 
Q. How long have you been engaged, more or less, in tak- 
Direct examination by Gov. Butler. 3054 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
ing care of foundling children, or in and about their care? A. 
About eighteen years. 
Q. In Boston most of the time? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. To what institution do you belong? A. I don’t belong 
to any. 
Q. Never had the care of any institution at all? A. No, 
sir. 
Q. Now, did Mr. Sargent call on you, along early in this 
hearing? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. What 
is this? 
Gov. Butler. Well, this is the same question that was put 
to Mr. Burns. 
Q. Did he call on you and find out what you knew, and say 
“ I guess we don’t want you?” A. Mr. Sargent or somebody 
called on me. 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee. 
The Chairman. Do you object to the question, whether 
Mr. Sargent called on her? 
Mr. Brown. It is the first time I ever heard of this woman. 
I never saw the woman. 
The Witness. I want to know how I got here. 
The Chairman. It won’t do any harm. 
Mr. Brown. If the committee want to spend the time. 
The Chairman. It is the governor’s time. It must have 
been a pleasant call to make, I presume. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Warner, how many of those foundling chil- 
dren have you under your charge ? A. Quite a number. 
Mr. Brown. 1 pray the judgment of the committee, whether 
we are to go into this foundling business again? 
The Chairman. Let us hear what the proposition is. 
Gov. Butler. I will state the proposition very frankly and 
full}’. I have nothing to conceal here. This lad}’ has had 
charge of foundling children. One of them is taken back from 
Tewksbury and is alive ; a monument of sparing grace. And I 
want to show that by taking decent and proper care of those 
foundling children that are marked as likely to die, that she 
raises a very large percentage of them. That is all. They 
have sworn here that foundling children could not be raised. 
Impossible! Seventy died out of seventy-one ; and so on at 
that rate for years. 
The Chairman. Seventy of those that wrent to Tewksbury? 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3055 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir’; that is what they have been swear- 
ing. And the claim has been all the time that it was the case 
with other foundling children, that they were so sickly, so dis- 
eased, soveiyweak as foundlings, that they could not be raised. 
I want to show by this lady that she has had the same class of 
foundlings, picked up in the streets, and that she has raised — 
she will tell you how large a per cent. And I want to show 
that it is not impossible to- raise foundling children. It is 
possible to kill them ; but, with decent care, it is just as possible 
to raise them. 
The Chairman. And you do this to meet the testimony of 
the ladies from Chardon Street Home ? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes ; the testimony of the ladies from 
Chardon Street Home. 
The Witness. Dr. Dixwell? 
The Chairman. And Dr. Putney? 
Gov. Butler. The testimony of Dr. Lathrop and the entire 
crowd has been : you cannot raise them on cows’ milk, except it 
is skimmed. [Applause.] 
The Chairman. We have no time to waste now. 
Gov. Butler. That you cannot raise them any wa}'; they 
will all die. 
The Chairman. If }'ou limit it to the same class of children, 
I don’t see why it is not competent. 
Gov. Butler, The same class — picked up in the street. 
The Chairman. Picked up and assorted? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; if the}" had been assorted, she would 
have had a better chance. She took them as they came. 
The Chairman. These are the ones that went to Tewksbury? 
Gov. Butler. Yes, sir; assorted in this way : that she got 
just as poor as she could, just as the others did. 
The Chairman. Assorted, so that those which it was thought 
would live were placed out in families, and those not healthy 
had to go to Tewksbury? 
Gov. Butler. No, sir. There is a great mistake if you 
place in that way. The placing out in families never took place 
until three years ago. 
The Chairman. On the part of the State. 
Gov. Butler. The State did not undertake to place them 
out, nor did the Chardon Street Home, until three years ago. 
The Chairman. Longer ago than that, I think — five years 
ago. 3056 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Well, five if please, I am not troubling 
about that. This, you know, goes back twelve or fifteen years 
— the slaughter of the infants. Herod didn’t do it only once. 
Now, I want to show that she, in her benevolence, has been 
picking up and taking care of these children, putting them out 
whenever she could find anybody to take them, and bringing 
them up just as they came. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency’s power to make misstatements 
is only limited by his ability to forget. No such testimony has 
ever been offered. On the other hand, twice, the committee has 
ruled against me on this very proposition. I undertook to show 
that the institution in Montreal, known as the Gra}- Nuns,— 
of which I had official reports — had a certain experience. I 
didn’t offer the official reports, but I interrogated one or two 
witnesses, and the committee excluded the evidence. The com- 
mittee said that for the purpose of showing the great difficulty 
of rearing foundling children at Tewksbury I should not go into 
the experience of any other institution ; and the committee ruled 
against me twice on that. I undertook to show that at the St. 
Mary’s Home, here in the Highlands, a Catholic institution, in 
charge of the Sisters of Charity, — and I mentioned that in an 
official report of the board of health of the city of Boston in 
1876 a record had been made, and I referred to it and the com- 
mittee — 
The Witness. In 1875. 
Mr. Brown. Thank 3-011. T undertook to refer to that and 
His Excellency objected, and the committee ruled against me 
So that three times I have undertaken to justify Tewksbury bv 
the experience of other institutions, and show the mortalit}- 
whicli took place there. This committee has ruled against me. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
► ** 
Mr. Brown. Now he comes here to condemn Tewksbury by 
the experience, not of an institution, but of a private person. 
Gov. Butler. Certainly. 
Mr. Brown. Now, is not that the same proposition? 
Gov. Butler. Oh, no ; 0I1, no. 
Mr. Brown. And he has not even the vantage-ground that I 
had in undertaking to meet his direct charge. Now, he is limited 
entirety to the record. And His Excellency has not got within 
a row of apple-trees of what was actually offered in evidence in 
regard to Tewksbury. We undertook to show just what we 
had to deal with. For that purpose we summoned the officers 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3057 
of the Chardon Street Home ; they having been in conference 
with His Excellency, and His Excellenc}r having found ont there 
was nothing there he wanted — 
Gov. Butler. There is not a word of truth there, not a 
word. I never saw an officer of the Chardon Street Home ex- 
cept in this room. 
Mr. Brown. Well, I will submit the record and see if the 
matron didn’t say that she had a conversation with His Excel- 
lency. Then we undertook to show by the books, and His 
Excellencty objected even to the Chardon Street record being 
brought in here to justify affairs at Tewksbury, and we had a 
long struggle about that. Finally the committee voted that 
these verj' children that went to Tewksbury, having at one time 
been inmates at Chardon Street, that the nurses or matrons who 
attended these children knew their condition before they went 
to Tewksbury, and that the books of record at Chardon Street 
which showed entries relating to them, should be admitted in 
evidence. And then it appears that the children who went to 
Tewksbury for a series of years, in the language of the matron 
who had been there for ten years — I don’t now recall her name 
— the language she used was this : that no child was sent to 
Tewksbury that it was thought it would live. That is the sub- 
stance, perhaps not the words. The committee remember it 
perfectly well. Now, nothing that this woman can say has any 
bearing upon Tewksbuiy. The fact that she had other children, 
taken just as they came in, just as they were picked up, has 
nothing to do with Tewksbury. That is the very ground on 
which you excluded my other testimony in regard to the institu- 
tion known as the Gray Nuns and the St. Mary’s institution at 
the Highlands — the very ground, because you said it didn’t — 
Gov. Butler. Don’t take all day for an argument, because 
it is getting late. 
Mr. Brown. Well, if you won’t interrupt me, I will stop 
very soon ; if you keep on I shall have to keep on. 
Mr. Mellen. There is only fifteen minutes more. Mr. 
Brown is repeating what he started out on, and I protest he has 
shown a disposition to consume time. 
Mr. Brown. I deny that I have shown any disposition to 
consume time. I have not consumed half the time on cross- 
examination that His Excellency has consumed in direct exam- 
ination. Now I simply say this : — 
Gov. Butler. That is not true. 3058 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Brown. If he came in here and tried to show that this 
woman had had experience with some particular child while it 
was at Tewksbury, and that what we said we did for that child 
to save it was not true, that we didn’t do it, that would be in 
rebuttal, but he don’t pretend to do that. 
Gov. Butler. Oh, yes, after I get through with this first 
question. I have got just one child they came very near killing, 
and she rescued it. 
Mr. Brown. Then I submit we should go directly to that, 
and not spend time, for this certainly is not competent. 
Gov. Butler. Now, the difference is this: I have said you 
cannot tell what is done at these homes outside, for they may be 
just as badly managed as Tewksbury. And T have not under- 
taken to put in the records, all over the world, of foundlings, for 
the reason that they may be well managed or ill managed, or 
they may be in unhealthy locations. I have taken a person who 
has done this business, because then you can ascertain exacth' 
what she did. You have got nurse, superintendent, physician 
and all hands. That makes the difference. It is a thing you 
can examine into; therefore I have brought her here. That 
makes it different from all these institutions. We have gone 
into the institutions enough, each one of them, to ascertain 
whether we can make comparisons. Now we have got a means 
of making, by cross-examination, just the comparison. I know 
that the matron from the Chardon Street Home undertook to 
swear here that none went there but what were to die ; but you 
will remember that on coming to the record we showed that 
there were not but five of them unhealthy out of seventy. 
[A vote was taken and the testimony was rejected, two to 
three.] 
Gov. Butler. Rejected, is it? Now we will go to something 
that Mr. Brown says will be competent. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. I didn’t say anything of that 
kind. I said that would raise a new question. 
The Chairman. There is not much time now for fun. 
Q. Now, madam, did you know of a foundling being taken 
to Tewksbury that stayed there a few days and got his eyes put 
out by syphilis,— that went from you healthy and then you got 
it back again and got'its eyes back? One of these people, 
52,261, went to Tewksbury June 14, 1877, and was there three 
days — A. Fourteen. 
Q. Did that child go from your house? A. No, sir. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3059 
Q. Did you see it before it went? A. No, sir ; two days 
before it went. I had the care of it from the time it was born 
until it was two years old. 
Q. Was it a tine healthy child? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. It went to Tewksbury. How did it happen to go there? 
A. I don’t know. I have been for a good many years trying 
to find out about it. 
Q. How long was it there? A. Fourteen days, according 
to the record. 
Q. Did you get it away? A. I went for it, and the same 
day I went for it the mother found that the child had gone to 
Tewksbury, and she went there before me and got the child. 
Q. Did you take care of it? A. I saw it and put it under 
the treatment of Dr. Cliff. 
Q. And there is his bill for professional services ? [Produc- 
ing a bill.] A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Brown. I object to it. 
Q. Now, then, I won’t stop to put that in. Was the child 
all right when it went in? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How was it when it came out? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgment of the committee, unless 
he can show it was the fault of the institution ; and the lady 
says she don’t know. 
Gov. Butler. I have not heard anything about it. 
Mr. Brown. Well, the lady volunteered the statement. 
Gov. Butler. I have not put any question and she has not 
answered to me. I don’t know what she has volunteered to 
you. 
Mr. Brown. I say that, until it is shown, unless he claims it 
was the fault of the institution, it cannot be made evidence. 
Gov. Butler. I say it went in there a healthy child, and 
fourteen days afterward it was taken out with its eyes all 
syphilitic; and that under good treatment it was brought up, 
and is living even until this day. 
Mr. Brown. Well, it might have been hereditary syphilis. 
Gov. Butler. Very likely. Probably it would have come 
out sometime. 
Q. Now I want to ask you what was the condition of the 
child when it came out ? 
Mr. Brown. I pray the judgmeut of the committee. 
The Chairman. Why shouldn’t this have gone in as part of 3060 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
your case in chief to show mismanagement or abuse? what does 
this mean ? 
Gov. Butter. For the reason, in the first place, that I didn’t 
know about it; and in the second place, I should not have put 
it in there. They come here and say they took good care of the 
children and I come in to show they didn’t. 
The Chairman. They don’t deny they died. 
Gov. Butler. I understand. I am doing a little something 
for them. There was one that lived after it had been there four- 
teen days. Now I have got them in this form : The child went 
there health}’, and came away with its eyes disordered, and yet, 
alter all its disadvantages it lived ; that is all. 
Mr. Brown. He does not pretend that this was owing to the 
negligence of the institution. 
Gov. Butler. But I do. 
Mr. Brown. When I suggest it might have been the result 
of hereditary syphilis, he does not deny that. We are not re- 
sponsible for hereditary syphilis. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care whether it was hereditary or 
otherwise. A child could be saved even with hereditary syphi- 
lis, if they choose to put it in that way. When it went it 
showed no signs of syphilis ; it was perfectly healthy. After 
it was bathed in those damnable waters of Tewksbury, it 
returned in fourteen days with its eyes running out of its head; 
and yet, by kind nursing it was brought out. 
The Chairman. It must have developed rapidly. 
Mr. Brown. He still disclaims that the institution was re- 
sponsible for it. 
Gov. Butler. The committee may do what they please with 
it; I don’t care. 
The Chairman. Shall it be admitted? Three. None 
opposed. Go ahead. 
Q. Now, won’t you go on ; without giving it piecemeal, 
won’t you go on and give the facts about this child? What was 
its name? A. Willie Marshall. 
Q. And where did he come from ? A. From Boston. 
Q. Was he a foundling? A. No, sir; born in Boston; 
Leverett Street. 
Q. And did it go there a healthy child? A. To where? 
Q. To Tewksbury? A. It must have been a healthy child 
or they would not have taken it as a selected baby at the Mas- 
sachusetts Infant Asylum where the State boards babies. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3061 
Q. It was taken to the Massachusetts Infant Asylum. Did 
you see it there? A. I had it at my house from July to Octo- 
ber, until it was admitted to the Massachusetts Infant Asylum ; 
and it stayed there until the next June, and then I boarded it 
myself at Newton. But how it got into Tewksbury — it went 
October 3d, 1877 — 
Q. How it got into Tewksbury you don’t know? A. No ; I 
don’t know. 
Q. But you found out it was at Tewksbury? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. While it was under your care it was a very pretty boy 
and looked to you all well? Then it went to Tewksbury? A. 
Yes, sir. 
Q. And was there fourteen days; and y'ou saw it when it 
came out? A. I saw it when it came out. 
Mr. Browx. Mr. Innis, will you get us the record of this 
case ? 
Q. Had it sore eyes? A. sore eyes. It could not 
open its eyTes at all. I saw the child at the depot, at Tewks- 
bury, in its mother’s arms, when it came out, and it had very 
sore eyes ; so much so that I felt the of putting the 
child under the treatment of a physician. He treated it for a 
few days, and then it was sent to the hospital at Dedham. 
Q. Did you seek after it? A. Yes, sir; I know him, and 
I know the mother now. 
Q. Has he recovered? A. Yes. He will never have his 
eyebrows. 
Q. Has he recovered his health? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, Mrs. Warner, without going into that anyr further, 
I want to ask you if you know Dr. Dixwell? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How long have you known him? A. Ever since the 
formation of the society for the prevention of cruelty to chil- 
dren. 
Q. Have you worked with him in that wayr? A. The first 
of his coming to my house, lie came to see a foundling at my 
house, that was found byr an officer of station three. 
Q. How long ago? A. Four years ago. 
Q. That was quite a while after the formation of the society'. 
And that was the first time he was at your house? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. You know him well? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And know other people who knew him? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did yrou ever hear him accused — did yrou ever hear any- 3062 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
thing against his character for truth and veracity until you 
heard it here? A. No, sir. 
Mr. Brown. What is that, Governor? I was interrupted. 
Gov. Butler. If she ever heard anything against Dr. Dix- 
well’s character for truth and veracity. 
The Witness. No, sir. 
Q. Did you, working with him in this society, ever hear 
anything, or know anything, about anyr lunacy, or idiocy, or 
insanity on his part? A. No, sir. I knew the president, very' 
well, of that society when it was first formed. 
Q. We have heard a great deal about his being expelled 
from that society. Do you know anything about it? A. There 
was some talk about it; but knowing the society, and the mem- 
bers of the society, as well as I do, I think they abused him. 
Q. Now, then, madam, did you ever keep a boarding-house 
down here near the medical college? A. Well, it was not very 
near. 1 
Q. In that neighborhood? A. I kept a few medical stu- 
dents from that college once. 
Q. How long ago? A. Oh, I think it was twenty or 
twenly'-one years ago. 
Q. Whether they were accustomed to bring home babies and 
others to dissect? 
Mr. Brown. I object. That is exactly what Dixwell said 
he did with them. 
The Witness. They brought one or two. 
Mr. Brown. Wait one moment. I submit this is not in re- 
buttal. The fact that a man is a medical student, and brings 
to his boarding-house a baby, is no evidence tending to show 
that it came from the institution where he is a student. And 
the evidence nowT is that there were no babies prior to 1876. 
Gov. Butler. There has not been anyr such evidence. 
There was a liar who said something about it once. 
Mr. Brown. There has another one contradicted it. 
Gov. Butler. He didn’t begin at that time ; therefore he 
didn’t bring any. I propose to prove that it was the habit. It 
has been urged against Dixwell that he said he took home 
babies to disseet. I want to show that it was the habit of the 
Harvard students to bring them home precisely as he says it 
was. And they brought them to this lady’s house, somewhat 
to her annoyance, I guess; I don’t know. They7' used to bring 
them home and put them into bureau drawers, and not only 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3063 
bring babies, but parts of bodies. It would be an entire con- 
tradiction of all that has been told by the emptyings they run 
out of Harvard College and that has been brought here. 
The Chairman. One witness testifies that the only baby he 
ever saw was brought in by two students from the street. What 
is there to show that these babies carried to her house were not 
picked up on the street? How does this support Dixwell? 
Gov. Butler. It supports Dixwell by showing that it was a 
habit. The great contest is here whether Dixwell is not crazy 
when he swears it was the habit to dissect babies and that, the 
students bought them and took them home to dissect. And 
they all came and testified that there never was one there, except 
one that was put in a bottle of alcohol in the museum—all these 
Harvard people. Now 1 want to show by the lady who boarded 
these students that it was not one picked up on the street, but 
that it was an habitual thing with them. They brought babies 
and grown people. They swore they never allowed anything to 
be taken. 
The Chairman. Does she know that the babies came from 
the Harvard Medical School? 
[The witness made a remark or answer which was subsequent- 
ly ordered to be stricken out.] 
The Chairman. How does that show that they came from 
the Harvard Medical School? 
[The witness made a remark or answer which was subsequent- 
ly ordered to be stricken out..] 
Gov. Butler. He was there. He brought something into 
the house ; and accompanying that act he made a declaration 
where he got it; and that has been ruled in here, half a dozen 
times. It would be clear to anybody’s comprehension, 1 think, 
that it would be evidence tending to show that it came from 
Harvard Medical School, a Harvard medical student bringing it 
home. And not only one, but more ; and not only babies, but 
the limbs of grown people. 
Mr. Brown. His Excellency, like Don Quixote, seems to be 
fighting a windmill when he pretends that the pretence in this 
case is that there was a large number of babies. Nothing of 
the kind. The issue has been here : Whether Dixwell told the 
truth about the Harvard Medical School and thereby connected 
it with Tewksbury. How many babies he had was entirely 
immaterial, except so far as the evidence in undertaking to con- 3064 
CHAlilTABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
nect those babies with the Harvard medical college, and through 
it, with Tewksbury. I submit this evidence is not competent. 
The Chairman. Members in favor of admitting it will raise 
their hands ; two ; those opposed, four ; rejected. 
Mr. Brown. Now, I move that we strike out the answer of 
the witness, which was entirely voluntary. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; it was in answer to the chairman. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. The chairman didn’t ask her 
any question. 
Gov. Butler. She understood it so. 
Mr. Brown. I move it be stricken out. 
The Witness. Excuse me. I thought it was the chairman 
who asked me a question. 
Mr. Brown. I move it be stricken out from the record. 
Mr. Mellen. I, would suggest that it be read. 
The Chairman. I asked the governor a question, and the 
lady interpolated a remark as an answer, as I remember it. 
Gov. Butler. Well, all the advantage, of its being in the 
record is that it will show the ground upon which the ruling of 
the committee was founded; that when they made that ruling 
they had that evidence. 
Mr. Brown. That is no ground, I submit, at all. 
Gov. Butler. It don’t prove how far it was the ground for 
the ruling. 
The Chairman. Let’s see what the stenographer has. 
Q. (By Gov. Butler.) Is this the man [pointing to Mr. 
Moses Sargent] that you call Mr. Sargent? A. That is the 
man who called upon me. 
[The stenographer read the remarks of the witness referred to 
Ivy the chairman.] 
Mr. Brown. The question was put to the governor. 
Gov. Butler. I have no doubt it was, Mr. Chairman, but 
the witness understood it was to her. 1 should have asked the 
same question in order to lay a foundation. 
The Chairman. Because she understood it so, don’t give her 
the right to answer. 
Mr. Mellen. I know ; but she answered and wras asked an- 
other question. 
The Chairman. 1 didn’t ask the witness any question. I 
was trying to find from the governor how it was competent. 
The motion is to strike it out. 1883.1 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
3065 
[The answers were ordered to be stiicken out by a vole of 
four to one ] 
Mr. Brown. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask for about live 
minutes with Mr. Charles Marsh to testify to two matters — 
Gov. Butler. 1 beg pardon, sir. 
Mr. Brown. First, that this boy Marshall was never in the 
institution at Tewksbury, and second, in regard to the three 
erasures where it is said acid has been used. 
Mr. Mellkn. Are we going to close at five o’clock? 
The Witness. May T say that I got this record from the 
books of the Tewksbury almshouse? 
The Chairman. There is nothing further, madam. 
Mr. Brown. I say it was only a nominal admission. 
The Chairman. And the other point is in regard to the 
acid. Step aside, Mrs. Witness. 
The Witness. 1 don’t allow anybody to say that what I say 
is untrue. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Marsh, take the stand. 
Gov. Butler. No, sir; I beg your pardon. It is now 
past 5 o’clock, and by agreement — as this hearing was to 
close at 5 o’clock by peremptory orders of the House, the chair- 
man was pleased to say. 
The Chairman. No. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon, sir. 
The Chairman. The House never fixed any time. 
Gov. Bugler. I am not saying what the House' did, but 
what you said. The chairman said the hearing was, by per- 
emptory orders of the House, to close at o o’clock. 
The Chairman. No ; 1 don’t think the chairman ever said 
that. The peremptory order was to close on Friday. 
Gov. Butler. At five o’clock, sir. 
The Chairman. The committee voted to close at live o’clock. 
Gov. Butler. Now, then, I have been deprived by the 
cross-examination on these books, of one or two hours of m.Y 
time, to-day ; 1 have been deprived of putting in some seven or 
eight witnesses, — very short ones, but very pertinent ones, — I 
have here — 
Mr. Brown I didn’t deprive you of the time you were off 
junketing. 
Gov. Butler. And, I think, under the circumstances, that 
you should hold to the rule, unless you will give me time enough 
to put in the rest of my witnesses, and then I don’t care what 3066 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr.’83. 
Charles Marsh swears to, not a copper, not one. But I don’t 
think it is right or just to have Mr. Brown, as he has done all 
day to-day, and all day yesterday, prolong the examination, 
taking up all the time, substantially, about nothing at all, — 
you know it as well as I do,—and then, after having cheated 
me out of my witnesses, ask the indulgence ol' the chair to put 
his witnesses on again. For all Mr. Marsh can know about 
this child must be upon the books. 
The Chairman. 1 think the only point, Governor, is upon 
the acid ; I don’t think the committee would go into any of the 
Tewksbury children. 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me ; then 1 want time to answer that. 
If they are going to bring anybody here that is going to tell 
about acids, I want time tv) answer that part. Now, we were to 
close at live o’clock. There has been a great waste of time, and 
I have some very important testimony — 
Mr. Mellen. Governor, if you will pardon me, I believe — 
Mr. C hamberlain. If the gentleman will give way, I should 
like to make a motion to adjourn. 
Gov. Butler. I am content. 
Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I simply desire to show that, 
when that book came into this state house, there wasn’t any 
stain on it such as Professor Babcock has testified to, and that 
that, boy Marshall was never in the institution. 
Mr. Chamberlain. I renew my motion to adjourn. 
The Chairman. Before the motion is put, I wish to say that 
to-morrow is going to be devoted to the arguments of this case ; 
and it is understood that the members of the legislature, House 
and Senate, desire to be present; and if so, they would occupy 
the most of this room. So parties coming here to-morrow will 
run the risk of not being able to get in, as the doorkeepers will 
be instructed not to let in the public till the members of the legis- 
lature are seated ; and then any surplus room, of course, may 
be utilized. 
Mr. Brown. I understood that they had passed an order for 
the use of the House. 
The Chairman. No ; the}’ refused it. The hearing is ad- 
journed to half-past nine to-morrow. 
Note. — The next two hearings should have been numbered sixty-fourth and 
sixty-fifth instead of sixty-fifth and sixty-sixth. INDEX. 
A. 
Abbott, Julia P., testimony of, . 2074 
Allen, John J , testimony of, 796 
Anderson, Charlotte, hospital record of, . . . . .1714 
Andrew, John A., letter to children at almshouse, . . . 1441 
Andrews, Alonzo T., testimony of, 2837 
Appearances — 
B. F. Butler, Governor 2 
Edward P. Brown, for respondents, .... 2 
William B. Gale, for Gov. Butler, 209 
Arguments — 
Edward P. Brown, opening for respondents, . . . 1184 
Edward P. Brown, closing for respondents, . . iii 
B F. Butler, Governor, closing, xlvi 
B. 
Babcock, James F., testimony of, 2855- 
Bacon, Edward, testimony of, ...... 1007 
Bacon, Joel, testimony of, 1910 
Bacon, John, testimony of,. ....... 1037 
Baldwin, Joel, testimony of, 785 
Bangs & Horton, coal accounts, .... 1108, 1110, 1165 
Bank books, receipts for, 2786, 2787 
Barker, Abbie, testimony of, . . . . . . .451 
Barker, Frank, testimony of 299, 430, 439 
Barnard, Abraham S., testimony of, . . . .2106,2146,2297 
Barrett, Daniel N., testimony of, 1868 
Barry, Ellen, testimony of,. ....... 352 
Bean, Marshall B., testimony of, ...... 2283 
Bean, Mary L , testimony of, ....... 2288 
Beebe, Joseph, testimony of, 624 
letters to, from Thomas J Marsh, . . . 636 
Blair, David, testimony of, 1998 
Bonds for dead bodies, . . . . . . . 2377 
Books, call for, . 129, 130, 171, 209, 298, 397, 866, 101.5, 2635, 2657 
Bowen, Mary Eva, testimony of, 499, 536 
letter from II. S. King, concerning, . . 537 
record of, . . . . .2143 3068 
INDEX 
Bowen, Miriam P., testimony of, 1978 
Bradford, Edward H , testimony of, 1329 
Buckley, James, testimony of, ! 1043 
Burns, John B , testimony of, ...... 2845,2929 
Burpee, George C., appointed stenographer, .... 2 
Burt, Jacob L , testimony of, . 352 
Bush, John Foster, testimony of, 1220 
Calder, Agnes, testimony of, 280,2973 
complaint of, and finding, 2595 
Carver, John, testimony of, 959 
Carver, Mrs. John, testimony of, ...... 966 
Chardon Street Home, register, .... . 1633 
Chase, John Henry, testimony of, .... 25,48,275,298 
Chase, Joseph H., testimony of, . . . . . . . 256 
Clough, Joseph Henry, testimony of, .... 1451,1156 
Coe, Isaac H., testimony of, 1641 
Credentials, from Gov. Butler to G. A. Tucker,.... 739 
Crockett, Adeline E., testimony of, 1641 
Cunningham, Peter, testimony of, ... . 842 
c. 
D. 
Davis, Mina A , testimony of, 238 
Dean, Edgar E , testimony of, ...... 328,349 
Dixwell, Johfi, testimony of, . . . . .9,39 
Doane, Thomas M., testimony of, 2791 
Doherty, James, testimony of, 1039 
Dolan, Bridget, testimony of, 660 
telegram to, 664 
Dollbff, Sarah E., deposition of, 2666 
Driscoll, William, testimony of, . . . . . . 2ft0 
Dudley, Charles II , testimony of, 62,76 
testimonials to, ..... 127,128 
Dudley, Fannie R , testimony of, 212 
testimonials to, 127,128 
Dunn, William A., testimony of, 1310 
Enwright, testimony of, . . . . . . . . 1459 
E. 
Fairbanks, Lorenzo S., testimony of, 706, 768,904, 917, 992, 1050, 1127, 
llftS, 1171, 1260,3033 
Farnsworth, Charles Henry, testimony of, .... 2867 
F. INDEX. 
3069 
Faunce, R. H., testimony of 692 
Fleming, James A., testimony of, 1326 
Folsom, Charles F., testimony of, 1460 
Food, comparative cost, 1862, 1882; Table X, .... 2392 
consumption, by years, 2325 
quantities, Table W, 2323 
values, 2334 
Frothingham, Edward, testimony of, 2911 
letter to John Dixwell,. . . . 2912 
Fuller, John E., testimony of, 1460 
G. 
Gigault, Frederick, testimony of, 2050, 2092 
memorandum of funerals, . . . 2102, 3000 
memorandum admitted in evidence, . . 3009 
Gilray, Joseph W., testimony of, 1034 
Gleason, Daniel A., testimony of, 875 
Goodwin, James A., testimony of, 357 
Gi-othusen, Emil A., testimony of, 2307, 2397 
II 
Haberiin, Frank E., testimony of, 696 
Halden, Otto, testimony of, 374 
Hall, Robert, testimony of, 2898 
Hall, Thomas J., testimony of, 191 
memorandum book, 192 
receipt for $16, 208 
Hamilton, Edward, testimony of, 2921 
Hanson, Annie M., testimony of, 2792 
Hanson, Charles M., testimony of, 2128, 2181 
Haskell, William 11., testimony of, 2226 
Hastings, Caroline E., testimony of, 561, 2891 
Hawley, William D., testimony of, 878, 1177 
Heathcote, Mark, testimony of, 319 
memorandum book, ..... 325 
Hill, Thomas, testimony of, 435 
Hodges, Richard M., testimony of, 1207 
Hough, William E., testimony of, 1461 
Howard, Joseph, testimony of, 1490, 1519 
I. 
Innis, George H., testimony of, 295 
“ Inspectors’ records.” See Trustees’ records. 
Investigation of 187G, report, 1944 3070 
INDEX 
Jackson, Hattie A., testimony of, 370 
Johnson, Charles, testimony of, 977 
hospital record, 1032 
J. 
K. 
Kelliher, Timothy, testimony of, 771 
Killeen, Patrick, testimony of, 794 
Kimball, Emma F., testimony of, 2694 
Kylander, Carl H., testimony of, 2991 
Lathrop, William H., testimony of, . . . . 2155, 2188, 2284 
Littlefield, Charles H., testimony of, 1193 
Locke, Carrie H., testimony of, 1463 
Lowry, William J., testimony of, 1536 
Ludwig, Joseph, testimony of, 853 
Lyons, Herbert H., testimony of, 3022 
L. 
M. 
Malloy, John, testimony of, 1040 
Manning, Mary F., testimony of, 130, 166 
Marsh, Charles B., testimony of, 210, 380, 476, 767, 800, 816, 865, 1017, 
1424,2690, 2695, 2748, 2758 
letter to O. Gilmore, 489 
Marsh, Thomas J., testimony of, . . 2400, 2443, 2498, 2557 
letter to A. A. Rotch, 38 
certification of accounts, .... 823 
Marsh, Thomas J., Jr., statement, 2657 
sworn, 2663 
Marston, E. Q., testimony of, 1713, 1725 
Martin, Stephen C., testimony of, 898 
Maynard, Charles J., testimony of, 2919 
McArthur, John A., testimony of, ...... 2804 
McGovern, John F., testimony of, 436 
McKinnon, Elizabeth, testimony of, 1811 
testimonials, 1847, 1848 
Merrill, Phebe A., testimony of, 2045 
Moran, Catherine, testimony of,. 995 
Morey, Richard, testimony of, 1075 
Morse, Godfrey, testimony of, . . . ' . . 2904 
Muller, Christian, testimony of, 680, 683 
Muller, William, testimony of, 678 
Murphy, John, testimony of, . . .... 2996 INDEX 
3071 
N. 
Newton, Eunice, testimony of, 605 
Nourse, Francis H., testimony of, 2588, 2605, 2608, 2612, 2618, 26221 
2623, 2628, 2706, 2733’ 
O. 
O’Brien, Cornelius H., testimony of, 744, 1450 
letters to Capt. Marsh, . . . 756, 757 
• record of, 1486 
O’Connell, Hannah, testimony of, 2380 
O’Kaue, Bernard, testimony of, ' , 2697 
O’Neil, Joseph, testimony of, 3020 
Order for investigation, 2 
P. 
Palmer, Joseph, testimony of, 1120,1151 
Pearson, Martha E., testimony of, 1737 
Phillips, Wendell, testimony of, 2967 
Phippen, Arthur H., testimony of, 1098 
Pillsbui’y, George, testimony of, 581,585 
memorandum of purchases and sales,. . 590 
Pinder, Albert, testimony of, 789 
Pope, Eugene A., testimony of, 2909 
Pope, Jennie E., testimony of. 405 
Porter, Charles B.* testimony of, 1230,1271 
Powers, Catherine, testimony of, 567 
Putney, George E., testimony of, . 1536,1577,1599,1627, 1630 
Records, Francis 13., testimony of, 1161, 1597,1626, 2690, 2732, 2788, 
2865,2998,3012 
Reddy, Thomas, testimony of, 1042 
Rice, Alexander H., testimony of, 1915,1961 
communication from Board State Charities, 1921 
letters from F. B. Sanborn, . . . 1928 
communication to Board State Charities, . 1962 
letter to F. H. Nourse, .... 2617 
Richardson, W. L , testimony of, 1203 
Ring, Johanna, testimony of, 472 
Robbins, Robert L., testimony of, 3024 
Rogers, Orville F., testimony of, 1897 
Rowen, James, testimony of, . 2958 
notification to, , f , , 2958 
R. 3072 
INDEX. 
S. 
Sanborn, Edmund R., testimony of, 591 
extract from sermon, . . . .270 
testimonial, . . . . . .272 
Sanborn, Harriet H., testimony of, 2020 
Sanborn, Sherman H., testimony of, 432 
Sargent, Moses, testimony of, 2360, 2372 
Sawyer, James T, deposition of, . , . . . . 2684 
Shattuek, Charles W., testimony of, 267 
Shattuck, Frederick C., testimony of, 1359 
Shields, Peter, letter concerning, 38 
Skilleen, James S., testimony of, 2990 
Skinner, George E., testimony of, 3017, 3021 
Smith, Asbury G., testimony of, 2871 
Smith, Henry A., testimony of, .... 1650, 1688, 1849 
Soldiers’ Home at Dayton, 1170 
Soldiers’ Home at Togus, 1159 
Spear, Phebe B., testimony of, 1696 
Sullivan, Jeremiah B , testimony of, 1535 
Superintendent’s reports, extracts, 2401, 2404, 2405, 2406, 2407, 2408? 
2410; 2411, 2412, 2414, 2422,2424,’ 
2425, 2430, 2431, 2433, 2434, 2435, 
2436, 2437, 2438, 2439, 2440, 2441? 
2465, 2466, 2467, 2468, 2469, 2470.’ 
2471, 2472, 2473, 2474, 2475, 2478, 
2479, 2512. 
T. 
Tabot, I. T, testimony of, . 2973 
Terry, Margaret, testimony of, 643 
letter from Thomas Mead, .... 646 
Thomas, Charlotte A., testimony of, 143, 172 
communication to trustees, . . .165 
Thompson, Aleina, testimony of, 1777,1789 
Thompson, Charles P., testimony of, 1119 
Towle, Levi G., deposition of, 2673 
Tripp, Willard D., testimony of, 2138 
Trustees records, extracts from, 2590, 2591, 2593, 2614, 2615, 2617, 
2620, 2622, 2623, 2624, 2628, 2691, 
2692, 2693, 2694. 
Tucker, G. A., testimony of, . . . . . . .719 
• credentials, 739 
letter from William T. O’Reilly, . . , 737 
Tally, Isaac J., testimony of, ,622 INDEX. 
3073 
Wade, Rufus R., testimony of, 2870 
Walker, Mary E., testimony of, 1010 
Warner, Lydia M , testimony of, 3053 
Webber, John S., testimony of, 1200 
West, Edward G., testimony of, 608 
Wheeler, Abby E., testimony of, 652 
White, John T.. testimony of, ....... 695 
Williams, Charles H., testimony of, 1422 
Wilson, Arthur H., testimony of, 3031 
Wing, Mitchell, testimony of, 691 
Wood, Edward S.,.testimony of, 2652 
Wretlind, Eric, testimony of, 2091 
Wrightington, S. C., testimony of, 930, 949 
w. ARGUMENTS. SIXTY-FIFTH HEARING. 
Friday, July 13. 
The committee met in the Green Room at 9.30 a. m., Senator 
Coring of Worcester in the chair. 
The Chairman. B}t vote of the committee, three hours have 
been assigned to arguments of counsel on either side. We will 
call it now ten minutes of 10. All present will see the propriety 
of abstaining from any demonstrations of approbation or disap- 
probation. Mr. Brown, 3-011 may proceed. 
ARGUMENT OF EDWARD P. BROWN, Esq., 
FOR THE DEFENCE. 
Mr. Chairman and, Gentlemen: After the lapse of four 
months, during which time you have devoted a vast amount of 
labor to the investigation of one of our public charitable institu- 
tions, we come this morning to the close. I should be false to 
my own feelings, and do an act of injustice to the committee, if 
I should fail now to thank them for the patient attention, and the 
careful consideration, which they have given to this investiga- 
tion. I must thank you, and each of }’ou personally, for the 
great courtesy with which you have treated me and the very 
great attention which you have always given to such matters 
as it has been my duty to present to you. 
The first public act in this investigation which bears directly 
upon the source from which it grew, was the address of His 
Excellency, found in Senate Document No. 1, in which His Ex- 
cellency made certain charges against this institution, charges 
of genei’al mismanagement, charges that the officers of this in- IV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
stitution had sold at public sale certain bodies of the dead of 
the Commonwealth. That there may be no misunderstanding 
in regard to this, I desire to call the attention of the committee 
to the language used by His Excellency, as printed upon page 
65 of that document: — 
“ Have there not been scandals, public and well known, for years 
in that institution? Was it not chai'ged,and never denied, that, for 
years, of the infants born in or sent to that institution, more than 
ninety per cent, died as such ? All of these did not fill an infant 
pauper’s grave, even; for it can be shown that from one hundred 
and fifty to two hundred and fifty infant corpses were annually sold 
as merchandise to a single medical institution in the State, for from 
three to five dollars each. Many, if not all, came from thence, be- 
sides large numbers of bodies of pauper adults, furnished for other 
medical purposes, and sold as merchandise for very considerable 
sums; and that done secretly, and not under and in accordance with 
the provisions of the law, which, under certain safeguards, permit 
almshouses to furnish the unclaimed bodies of deceased paupers for 
dissecting purposes to surgeons and medical schools, according to 
the decent and humane provision of the statute. Was this not in tes- 
timony before a grand jury? Has it not been publicly known? 
What l'ecord has the State of these dead infant children, to whom it 
took the place of parent? What account, even, has ever been re- 
turned of the price of this merchandise of the Ghouls ? What record 
of birth or death or burial-place, by which such bodies could be 
identified or classified ? ” 
Such, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, were the charge upon this 
branch of the subject. His Excellency put into that address 
other charges in regard to the management of this institution. 
It was done at the opening of the session of the legislature of 
this 3'ear. This address, delivered by His Excellency in accord- 
ance with a time-honored custom, was published at the State’s 
expense, and several thousand copies circulated ; it was tele- 
graphed b}r the Associated Press to all parts of the coun- 
try, and printed in the public journals of the day. It found 
its way into the leading journals of the great metropolises of 
England and the continent. Not satisfied with that, gentlenlen, 
His Excellency took occasion, as we are informed, to publish 
several thousand additional copies, which were sent to 
friends with this polite endoi’sement, “ With the Compli- 
ments of the Author, Published at his own expense.” So that 
we have before us the governor of the Commonwealth accusing 
the people of the Commonwealth and the officers of this institu- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
V 
tion with mismanagement, desecrating the dead, and em- 
bezzling the money which was received from the disposition 
of the bodies of the dead. It is in vain, gentlemen, that His 
Excellency will say in any official document that he is not the 
accuser. He is the author of the accusation. It is in vain, 
gentlemen, that he tells you he is not the prosecutor in 
this case. From the beginning to the end of this investigation, 
he has given to it all that great talent, that great ingenuity, 
that remarkable perseverance, the full strength and vigor of 
that remarkable constitution which, for forty years, have given 
him a reputation as an advocate — not local, but national. 
Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, that distinguished criminal 
lawyer, Mr. Gale, could not be trusted in this emergenc}T. He 
was present here but a day, and His Excellency announced that 
no counsel could be put into this case. So important was 
the issue to him, so stupendous were the consequences which, in 
his judgment, were likely to follow a failure in this case, that it 
could not be entrusted to any other human being in the Com- 
monwealth with a professional education. 
The people of this Commonwealth looked on in wonder and 
amazement. The party press, the press of that party that had 
been chiefly responsible for the administration of the govern- 
ment, started back surprised, astonished, bewildered ; all de- 
manded — men, women, and children throughout this Common- 
wealth demanded — of their representatives, that if that condi- 
tion of things existed, this legislature,—you, the men elected 
upon the same ballot with His Excellency, should investigate 
this case and should stay here until its conclusion. An indig- 
nant people — and if the charges were true, the people had 
a right to be indignant — demanded that the accuser 
should prove the accusation or retire; and the legislature of 
Massachusetts, according to the forms of law, selected you 
eleven gentlemen, members of the Senate and of the House, as 
the committee on public charitable institutions, and charged you, 
on the 7th of February last, with the duty of investigating the 
present management — I desire to call the attention of the com- 
mittee to the language of the order — the present management 
of the public institutions of the State, including the state alms- 
house at Tewksbury. What passed between the 7th of February 
and the 30th of March I leave to the consideration of the com- 
mittee. I leave the committee to vindicate themselves against 
any charge of unreasonable delay which took place between the VI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
7th of February and the 30th of March. On the 30th of March 
the committee met for its first hearing. I appeared as counsel 
for the trustees and the superintendent. 
The Chaikman. The 29th of March, Mr. Brown. 
Mr. Brown. The 29th of March. At that time, Mr. Chair- 
man and gentlemen — and it is important that I now call your 
attention to it — I asked in behalf of my clients that the charges 
against this institution should be reduced to writing. His 
Excellency objected. There was a considerable discussion, 
which will be found in the first ten pages of the record, but it 
was finally concluded, and consented to by His Excellency and 
all parties concerned, that the accusations were in writing, and 
that they were contained in Senate Document No. 1, the address 
of His Excellency ; and thereupon, that agreement, in substance, 
having been entered upon the record, we proceeded with the 
investigation. 
Now, gentlemen, I desire to call your attention to this insti- 
tution which we wTere called upon to investigate at that time. 
It was established under the law of this Commonwealth in 
1852. The buildings known as the main building were built 
then. Subsequently, on the 22d day of June, 1858, Thomas J. 
Marsh, Sr., the superintendent, was appointed. He went to 
the institution, and remained there twenty-five 3’ears lacking a 
single day. During that time Mr. Marsh had the entire admin- 
istration not only of the funds appropriated by the legislature 
for the running of the institution, but he had the entire manage- 
ment of its inmates, the control and supervision of the construc- 
tion of all the buildings that have been erected since that time 
and of the repairs which have been made, of course, always sub- 
ject to the direction and control of the inspectors or trustees, 
whichever existed at any given time under the provisions of the 
statute. 
During the first fourteen weeks of his experience there were 
admitted to that institution 779 persons. In each }Tear from 
that to the first of October, 1882, there were admitted a large 
number of persons, the largest number being, I think, 3,197, 
in the year 1877. But in no year was there a less number ad- 
mitted than in the first fourteen weeks ; to wit, 779. The total 
admissions from the 22d of June, 1858, to the first day of Oc- 
tober, 1882, were 57,057 ; and by a hasty examination of the 
register from the 1st of October, 1882, down to the time when 
Mr. Marsh left, there were others admitted, in the neighborhood 1883.] 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
VII 
of 2,000. So that for the purposes of this argument I shall say 
that during the period of his administration there were ad- 
mitted to this institution about 60,000 persons. 
Of that 60,000 persons, about 25,000 were born in Ireland ; 
12,774 were born in Massachusetts of foreign parents; 9,734 
were born in England, Wales and Scotland, and from all other 
places, including those from Massachusetts, not born of 
foreign parents, the States of the Union and all other countries 
of the world, there were 13,214. So that, Mr. Chairman and 
gentlemen, this institution has received, during twenty-five 
years, from Ireland, from Scotland, from England and from 
Wales, more than fifty-seven per cent, of all the paupers that 
ever came within its walls. 
There have been, during those twenty-five }rears, 5,928 deaths 
and 1,606 births. The average cost of running the institution 
was the least in the first fourteen weeks of Mr. Marsh’s 
administration, when it was on an average eighty-seven 
cents per week per inmate. The highest cost of running the 
institution in an}1- year was in 1882, when the average cost 
per week per inmate was $2.09, a little more than $1 less than 
was expended in the National Home for Disabled Soldiers at 
Dayton, Ohio, over which His Excellency for a series of years 
had the management and control. Of this vast aggregation of 
human beings in all the conditions and vicissitudes of life as 
seen in its lower walks, Thomas J. Marsh, Sr., had the man- 
agement and control. He expended during that period up- 
wards of two millions of dollars in buying clothing and food, in 
the disbursement of money for the construction of new build- 
ings, and in the making of repairs ; and all this, gentlemen, 
upon a salary of $1,200 per annum at the outset, and subse- 
quently it was increased, I think, to $1,500, and afterwards 
$1,800 per annum. 
This institution, whose present management you were invited 
to investigate, was the subject of official investigation by the 
board of health, lunacy and charity immediately after the charges 
of His Excellency had been made public, and that board dele- 
gated one of its most intelligent, one of the most careful, one 
of the most conscientious women known in the Commonwealth, 
to perform that difficult and delicate duty. I shall be pai'doned, 
Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, if I refer to an official communi- 
cation made to that board by Mrs. Leonard, showing what was 
the result of her investigation. VIII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Gov. Butler. Is that from the report published in the pa- 
pers? 
Mr. Brown. No, sir; I have a copy taken from the report 
itself. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t object to it in that way. 
Mr. Brown. I intend to read but a very small part of it. 
This lady proceeds : — 
“ I think I examined more than a hundred beds, including those in 
remote attic dormitories, where boys and men sleep, and the beds of 
the insane. On the night of my arrival, I took the keys of a matron, 
and visited a portion of the insane (fifty-two in all) without her, 
after they had retired. I found them in excellent condition, but with 
no change since the two preceding visits, when I carefully exam- 
ined the insane. I found all beds everywhere in the institution satis- 
factory. I was assured by inmates of sevei’al years’ standing, that 
the beds had always been changed — clean sheets, etc., whenever a 
new occupant was received ; and all beds were changed once a week 
regularly, and oftener when necessary. To this point I gave much 
attention, and made inquiry of various inmates, with the same an- 
swer. The bath-tubs were in sufficient number and good order, 
just as I had previously found them, with water abundant, except 
that some tubs needed painting inside. Many patients were being 
bathed while I was there. This process I always find going on in 
large institutions much of the time, as different persons bathe on dif- 
erent days, to accommodate all. There is no common pool nor tank 
for bathing in the institution, and has not been for several years. 
Formerly they were common in large institutions, but have been 
given up in Massachusetts some years ago. 
“ There is no vermin in the institution, except sometimes stray 
bugs, liable to be brought in by inmates, as are also lice of the head 
and body both. There are cockroaches near the water-pipes, as I 
have often seen in hotels and private houses. To keep out vermin is 
one of the most difficult tasks in an almshouse, and is accomplished 
as well at Tewksbury as could be expected. All my information in 
regard to vermin I received from inmates. There are some rats 
seen now and then, as might be expected in a large group of build- 
ings on a farm where they can come in from the fields in search of 
food; but, from inquiries of inmates, I thought no more than I 
have seen in almshouses proportionally. I found the old women’s 
and old men’s wards very cheerful and comfortable, the occupants 
generally cheerful and contented, so far as human nature is contented 
in even luxurious surroundings. There are always some children in 
the almshouse, — a few with their mothers; others sent in from 
towns in the eastern part of the State, waiting transportation to 
Monson; also a number of children (perhaps twenty) afflicted with 
loathsome disease, or hopelessly idiotic. I found the sick children 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
IX 
receiving fairly good care; on the female side, very good care. 
There are no infants at Tewksbury without mothers, and, as is well 
known to the board, no foundlings since October, 1879; these all 
being boarded out in private families, with excellent results. In 
former times motherless infants fared badly here ; because they were 
cared for by pauper women, ignorant and untrustworthy. In 1879 
they ceased to be maintained at the almshouse. I saw a good many 
feeble, emaciated infants, born with nameless diseases, suffering for 
sins of parents. 
“ The men’s hospital is a long brick building, divided by the dis- 
pensary into two wards,— sick and convalescent. There are three 
small rooms off the wards for special cases, two of which held six 
beds and one two beds. In eight of these beds were sick, insane or 
idiot men. A small partitioned space off the long or sick ward is 
used for cases of delirium tremens. I found seventy patients in the 
long ward, thirty-nine of whom were in bed, the rest able to sit up 
more or less. None of these are able-bodied. Two paid male 
attendants only are in charge of these men, many of whom are de- 
mented. In the short ward were forty-seven feeble men, three 
of whom were in bed, with one paid attendant. There 
has been of late a night watchman for the two wards 
but not always; and the sick must have suffered when 
there was not. At present one attendant has just been dismissed, 
and his place is unfilled. For these one hundred and seven- 
teen sick and feeble men, three attendants, with sueh help as can be 
had from patients, do all the work ; cleaning the floors, utensils, etc.; 
bathing the patients, washing and bandaging sores, poulticing, giv- 
ing medicine, food, etc. Any person accustomed to sick nursing can 
sep how inadequate is the number of attendants, and how difficult it 
must be to secure persons to do so much work for the most repulsive 
subjects of disease and dementia. 
“The male attendants were spoken of well by some patients; by 
some, of long term in hospital, with praise. Two men, apparently 
credible persons, gave me instances of attendants striking and 
roughly using sick men. One of these patients said that attendants 
had a hard time sometimes with delirium-tremens patients, who were 
very dangerous and difficult to handle. In my opinion, these two 
wards cannot have proper care without six paid attendants, four for 
day ami two for night; nor would any of our good hospitals probably 
get along with even that number of nurses. First-class men cannot 
be had for this position, even at twenty-five or twenty-six dollars per 
month, which is what they are paid. No attendant should ever be 
permitted to be unkind to a patient, much less to strike or abuse one 
which is horrible to contemplate. But when cheap and insufficient 
attendants are demanded, we must put up with what we can get, as 
housekeepers sometimes must with faulty domestics. The surest X 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
way to prevent abuse is to have competent men in charge, and 
enough of them. The appropriation does not permit this.” 
Gov. Butler. I want to sa}r that that document has not 
been put in evidence. I have had no opportunity to meet or 
object to it, and I think it is not proper to argue upon it. But 
I have not objected to it, because, it serves his purpose, and has 
been printed as a campaign document and sent all over the 
State. 
The Chairman. There is an agreement that all official docu- 
ments might be referred to. 
Gov. Butler. I haven’t seen any official document. 
Mr. Brown. If the record of the board of health, lunacy and 
charity is examined, the document may be found upon it. 
Gov. Butler. That is, after this investigation began, the 
board of health, lunacy and charity sent a woman to investigate 
it. If Mr. Brown prefers to read her speech I don’t object. 
I would as lief hear him read her speech as make one himself. 
However, I don’t object. 
Mr. Brown. Now, that is the institution, and this is the 
view taken of it by a conscientious woman, who had no motive 
under heaven except to do her duty. Ineligible to any office 
in this Commonwealth, she may be supposed to have no political 
bias. 
Against this institution His Excellency charged with sevent}'- 
eight witnesses, and I ask your attention now, gentlemen, to an 
analysis of that evidence. Twelve of those witnesses, Dr. Ed- 
ward Bacon, John Bacon, James Doherty, Dr. R. II. Faunce, 
Thomas Ilill, John F. McGovern, John Malloy, Christian 
Muller, William Muller, John T. White, Mitchell Wing and 
Thomas Reddy, were called by His Excellency to prove that 
certain skins of human beings had been tanned. I)]-. Bacon 
testified (page 1007) that between 1875 and 1878 he took 
two pieces of human skin from the dissecting-room at Har- 
vard medical college to a tannery at Woburn — one white and 
one colored — where they were tanned; that no one at the 
college, except the students, knew anything about it. His 
father (page 1037) testified: “My son brought what was said 
to be human skin to Bishop’s tannery, where it was tanned. It 
was a sort of concealed transaction ; neither of the firm knew 
anything about it.” James Dohertj" testified that he worked at 
Bishop’s tannery since 1876 ; saw this human skin there ; part 
of it black and part of it white. “ I limed it,” &c. John Malloy 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XI 
testified that he also worked at Bishop’s tannery; saw two 
pieces of skin, said to be human ; tanned them, and gave them 
to Dr. Edward Bacon’s father. Thomas Reddy testified that he 
worked in Bishop’s tannery ; saw these skins in the beam-house, 
one white and one black ; “I skived them.” Thomas Hill testi- 
fied that he lived in Woburn ; that Mr. Bancroft, of the firm of 
Eustace, Cummings & Co., gave him this piece of negro skin 
tanned ; Bancroft told him it was a negro skin, and tanned at 
his tannery. John F. McGovern testified that he worked for 
Cummings & Bancroft; tanned a piece of negro skin at their 
tannery ; that W. F. Morrison brought it to him, and said he 
brought it from Harvard, and it came from Tewksbury. Where 
is Morrison ? Why isn’t Morrison produced, if he knew where 
that skin came from? But it is left with you to say whether this 
employee shall be permitted to state what somebody told him as 
to where that skin came from. William Muller testified that he 
and his two brothers, Christian and Henry, were tanners at 
Cambridge ; within a year and a half some parts of human skin 
came to our tannery and were tanned; one a negro’s and the 
other a white man’s; there was also brought some, five weeks 
ago, which my brother refused to take ; he could not identify the 
piece of leather shown him. Christian Muller testified that he 
was a tanner ; that some five or six weeks ago some human skin 
was brought there, and refused to tan it; a medical student 
brought the skins — “he said he was” — didn’t know where he 
came from ; he identified the skin with a shoe-vamp cut from it; 
received no pay for tanning it. Dr. R. H. Faunce testified that 
he procured a piece of human skin to be tanned from the dis- 
secting-room at Harvard Medical School in November, 1881 ; 
“ during the three years he was there he says he never saw any 
other skins taken by the students.” John T. White, a member 
of the district police, testified that he procured one of these 
skins at Weymouth. 
Thus we have four instances of the tanning of human skins 
during the 25 3Tears in which Mr. Marsh has administered the 
affairs of this institution, during which time upwards of 6,000 
persons have died at this institution, and during the last nine 
years of which 585 bodies have been sent from this institution, 
and only a small part to Harvard. Why, upon this evidence the 
argument, Mr. Chairman, that any human skin from Tewksbury 
was ever tanned, is as absurd and ridiculous as it would be to say 
tbfi-t because the Jews once stoned a man in Jerusalem and a man XII 
CHAKITABLE INSTITUTIONS 
[Apr. 
from Tewksbury was once in Jerusalem, therefore the man from 
Tewksbury was the man who was stoned. And not only that, 
but there isn’t a pretence that anybody in Tewksbury ever knew 
it; not a pretence that any oilicer of the Harvard medical col- 
lege ever knew it — it never came to the attention of the faculty. 
I called the officers of that institution, a large number of them, 
whose services covered a series of years, demonstrators of an- 
atomy who had the handling of these bodies and the management 
of the dissecting-room, and not a single one ever knew that pieces 
of human skin had been taken from the institution for the pur- 
pose of being tanned. Two of the governor’s own witnesses 
testified that it was a concealed transaction ; one of them testi- 
fied at length that during the three years he was at the institu- 
tion he understood perfectly well that if any part of a human 
body was taken from that dissecting-room without leave of the 
officers, the student who took it would be the subject of severe 
censure. 
But His Excellency goes one step further. He says that this 
institution at Tewksbury has been mismanaged, because the 
bodies delivered to the Harvard medical college have not been 
treated with proper respect. For that purpose he called Dr. 
Dean, whose testimony is upon page 326 ; Dr. Dixwell, whose 
testimony is upon page 9 ; and Dr. West, whose testimony is 
upon page 617. Dr. Dean was at the institution in November, 
1858, and his testimony applied to the then condition of things. 
He said the small pieces of human skin and flesh taken olf in the 
process of dissection were put into pails, and the contents of the 
pails subsequently were delivered into a sort of cistern. His Ex- 
cellency undertook to say that those parts of the'lmman body, thus 
put into the cistern, were subject to be fed upon by eels and lob- 
sters. Nothing was ever more absurd in the world. We called the 
officers of the institution for the purpose of showing that nothing 
could get in or out of the cistern except the water which perco- 
lated through the strata of solid brick. Dr. West was a disap- 
pointment to His Excellency, for he says upon page 617, that 
everything in regard to the disposition of the parts of the human 
body at Harvard Medical School when he was there was con- 
ducted with all the propriety and decency with which such a 
thing could possibly be conducted. There is only one witness 
remaining, and that is Dr. Dixwell. 
Dr. Dixwell testified to a condition of things so absurd that 
his testimony fell of its own weight. I venture the assertion 1883. 
HOUSE— No. 300. 
XIII 
that not an intelligent man in the whole community ever believed 
that Dr. Dixvvell told that which was true. His testimony was 
grossly exaggerated, either because he was mentally incapable 
of appreciating the truth, or because lie wilfully and deliber- 
ately lied. To meet the testimony of Dr. Dixwell I called Dr. 
VVm. L. Richardson, who denied that during the period that 
Dr. Dixwell stayed at the Harvard Medical School there was 
any such condition of things as he represented ; he denied that 
that there were any bodies of children in that institution during 
that period except those which he described as monstrosities 
(page 1203). Dr. Richard M. Hodges also denied that condi- 
tion of things ; he was familiar with the institution as one of its 
professors (page 1207). Dr. John Foster Bush was a class- 
mate of l)r. Dixwell and dissected with him in the dissecting- 
room ; was familiar with his personal history, and they were 
comrades together in the pursuit of their studies, and he had an 
opportunity of knowing what Dr. Dixwell did ; he denies that 
there were any babies at the institution at that time, except one 
which he found up in the museum department preserved in alco- 
hol (page 1220). Dr. Charles Burnham Porter, who was also a 
demonstrator of anatomy during a long time, denies that there 
were any babies there except monstrosities and those preserved 
in alcohol, and he further denies the statement of Dr. Dixwell 
that during the period when Dr. Dixwell was at the medical 
school there was any dissection of animals allowed at the in- 
stitution, or any mingling of the remains of animals with those 
of human beings (pages 1230 and 1307). Dr. Dunn denies the 
statement in regard to children, and further testified that Dr. 
Dixwell was of unsound mind ; that it was generally known and 
understood and believed that his eccentricities were due entirely 
to the fact that his mind was diseased ; he had associated with 
him, been his intimate personal friend, and regretted exceed- 
ingly to be called upon to make such a statement. Dr. James 
A. Fleming also denied the statement that there were babies 
there at the time Dixwell spoke of. Dr. Edward H. Bradford 
denied the statement in regard to babies ; he also said that Dix- 
well’s friends had observed for a series of years that he was er- 
ratic in his Tnanner, that his costume was peculiar, that he had 
also made extravagant statements in regard to the school ma’ams 
of Boston (pages 1330, 1340, 1341, 1342) ; and he also stated 
that among Dixwell’s friends and relatives his reputation for 
truth and veracity was bad. Dr. Shattuck, another distin- XIV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
guished member of the profession, testified that he knew Dix- 
well and his friends, that his reputation for truth and veracity 
was bad, that the condition of his mind and his apparent disre- 
gard of truth and his disposition to make exaggerated statements 
was the subject of frequent comment. Dr. Charles F. Folsom, 
a man known throughout the United States as an eminent sci- 
entist ; at one time an officer of the old state board of health, 
and at another time under the new; a man who enjoys a 
reputation not.only in this country, but in England, testified 
that he knew Dixwell perfectly well, was familiar with his friends, 
knew his uncle, Dr. Bowditch, that his reputation for truth and 
veracity was not only bad, but his unsoundness of mind was 
very generally conceded (page 1380). Dr. Charles II. Williams 
denied the statement of Dixwell in regard to the number of 
babies at Harvard College (page 1422), and also testified that 
Dixwell’s reputation for truth and veracity was bad. 
Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, everything turns upon 
this man Dixwell. If you believe Dixwell, then the remains of 
human beings and the remains of animals were mingled together 
in the dissecting-room, and buried in the same grave. His Ex- 
cellency has undertaken to show that Dixwell was a man of truth 
and veracity. He has undertaken to show it by the testimony of 
several witnesses : one from Lynn who has seen him only three 
times since graduation ; one witness interested in the collection 
of natural curiosities, in which subject Dr. Dixwell had also 
great interest, he had seen him frequently ; and another witness, 
Mr. Hamilton, who had also seen Dixwell; and Wendell Phil- 
lips, who had seen him frequently. Those are the men who, as 
I remember, testified that the}' never heard his reputation for 
truth and veracity questioned. Now, of course, gentlemen, it is 
one thing to say that you know a man’s reputation for truth and 
veracity is bad, because }'Ou have heard it called in question, and 
it is another thing to say that you have never heard it questioned. 
We are all here together, associated in the performance of an 
important duty. Fifty or a hundred persons in this room could 
tell you that I am addressing this committee ; but there are a 
thousand persons walking on yonder street who do not see this 
performance. Their testimony that they didn’t see it, or never 
heard me speak, isn’t of the slightest consequence in the pres- 
ence of the testimony of three persons in this room who are 
listening to my voice. 
But, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, why go to Lynn for a 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XV 
witness to tell you who Dixwell is? Dixwell’s father and 
mother were born here, and now live here ; his uncle, Dr. Bow- 
ditch, is a distinguished, a heroic man; he has sisters here, sev- 
eral in number; brothers-in-law, distinguished members of the 
Suffolk bar, one wearing the ermine of a high judicial oflice in 
this Commonwealth. Why not call some one of them? Or, 
Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, have they been, during the last 
thirty days, pleading with His Excellency that Dixwell should 
remain unnoticed, so that his reputation should not be a matter 
of record to be handed down in an official document among the 
archives of this Commonwealth? 
I call this to your careful attention, because when it is possi- 
ble to bring in the men who have known Dixwell from child- 
hood — and they are reputable — that is the best source to which 
you can resort; provided, always, that it is accessible. It was 
probably not the case here. 
But I must not omit to call your attention to the testimony of 
Mr. Frothingham, a witness for His Excellency. He said Dix- 
well was always making exaggerated statements, and had been 
for years, — he had noticed it in his management of the'affairs 
of the Russian Jews, and that he had heard a gentleman well 
known in this city, a Hebrew, a Mr. Heclit, say the same 
thing — that Dixwell’s conduct was disappointing 
him; that he was disobeying orders. So much 
for Dixwell. 
I come now to the next subject — acts of cruelty committed 
at this institution. The testimony upon this subject is from 
three classes of witnesses : first, persons outside of the insti- 
tution ; second, the attendants who have served at the institu- 
tion ; and tlurd, inmates. Of those persons outside of the in- 
stitution, who have visited it, out of the fourteen thousand and 
odd names upon the register, His Excellency has produced 
seven. And you want to remember that Capt. Marsh stated to 
you that that register did not contain more than a quarter of 
the names of the persons who had visited it; and yet there 
are nearly fifteen thousand names. It commenced to be kept 
in 1863. Seven persons were called out of (in the neighbor- 
hood of) sixty thousand wlio have been there. John Carver 
and his estimable wife, I take first. He had a peculiar story 
to tell; it interested him, and I have no doubt it interested 
the committee. On one beautiful night there was a sweet 
child left at his house, upon the doorstep. The child wras of XVI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
fair face, small features, handsome, and, as Mrs. Carver 
said, it had one of the characteristics of her own family,— 
small bones. They took it and kept it a few days without even 
thinking what possibly might be the relationship, and then they 
took it to Tewksbury on the 19th of March, and on the 21st 
they went after it. Mrs. Carver had a revelation during those 
two or three days, and her heart went out to that child as it 
never had gone out before. Somehow or other, there was such 
a remarkable resemblance between that child and some 
of her own family, that her heart went out toward it, and 
her feet started out for Tewksbury. She arrived there. She 
found that the child, which had always been fed on one par- 
ticular. cow’s milk on her farm at her house, had been nursed at 
the institution on another cow’s milk of a different character or 
quality, and the child got sick. 
There were other influences not within the control of the 
officers—such as a large number of children confined in one 
room, cared for, the most part, by pauper attendants ; a lack of 
proper nursing rendered necessary by the fact that the people of 
this Commonwealth (and I shall come to that subject by and by) 
never fully opened their eyes to the great responsibility which 
rests upon them in the management of this institution, and have 
never given it the proper means or ils officers the proper oppor- 
tunity to do their duty. Well, that child wasn’t well. She took 
it home and in a few days it got better; and the lady was frank 
enough to tell you that a change of milk, she had noticed in 
the management of her own children which she had reared, was 
sufficient to make a child sick, to cause vomiting and also some 
of the other symptoms she had heard attended this child during 
its stay at Tewksbuiy. 
Another was Bridget Dolan. She had a husband and that 
husband was a cripple. They were short of means and that hus- 
band went to Tewksbury, and he liked Tewksbury so well that 
Bridget after that never had any fascination in her person 
that would prevent him from staying there. 
Well, then, there was Mark Heatheote, who went to Tewks- 
bury with a small child, and while he was in the institution, 
after he had left that child there, he observed at a distance, 
some twenty feet away, another child with something in its mouth 
which he thought was a cake of soap. That is all. He didn’t 
inspect it to find out if it was soap. The occurrence didn’t 
appeal to his sympathy and excite his anger; not at all. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XVII 
He deliberately looked on and went away, and never told it ex- 
cept as an amusing incident, a pretty good joke, to somebody 
after lie got to the police station at Salem that night, and then 
he made that mysterious entry in his diary which I want the 
committee to examine. If am' man can say that those entries 
were not made at different times, with different pencils, then I 
am mistaken. I venture to saj', gentlemen, that 3'ou cannot 
make a like exhibition with the same pencil if 3'ou should keep 
trying from sunrise to sunset. Gentlemen, that entry was 
made afterwards, and not, as he stated, Avith the same pencil. 
It wouldn’t be possible. 
Well, then came Johanna Ring. She had a little trouble, and 
Mr. Isaac Tully had a little trouble. I will pass them by for 
want of time. But the witness who Avas the most intelligent of 
all the outsiders was Dr. Tucker. He probably hadn’t seen His 
Excellenc37 f°r consultation, or he would not have been 
produced ; but he had seen the institution and had gone all 
over it. The criticism of Dr. Tucker Avas that there Avasn’t 
a sufficient number of attendants upon the insane, and that 
there should be some means for engaging their attention, giving 
them diversion of one kind and another, during the hours of the 
day when they were not confined in the dormitory, or engaged 
in sleep. That is the substance of all his criticism—a gentleman 
charged by the government of Australia to come to this country 
to investigate the institutions for the treatment of the insane. 
He had travelled from one end of it to the other; and that 
is the only criticism he could make. He wasn’t familiar Avith 
the diet, but he said the kitchen and all its utensils were 
thoroughly and property cleansed, the beds and bedding were 
clean and there appeared to be a proper respect among all the 
inmates for the officers. He saAV nothing to criticise in the dis- 
cipline of the institution and made no criticism. He said it 
AA'as the best managed institution of the kind he had seen in this 
countiy. So much for outsiders. 
I come now to the inmates. These are ten in number ; one 
six-thousandth of the entire number that have been in the in- 
stitution since Mr. Marsh went there. I Avant to say in the 
outset, gentlemen, that if 3Tou have succeeded in supplying the 
wants and quieting five thousand nine hundred and ninet3r-nine 
complaints out of six thousand in your own family, 3011 are 
then qualified to criticise Tewksbury. When go home 
at the end of this session, if you find that you have satisfied XVIII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
five thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine six-thousandths of 
your constituency, I venture the assertion that you will be 
returned here*until you are too old to travel. 
What are these complaints? Joseph Beebe is the first wit- 
ness, a man known for years to be quarrelsome, mischievous, 
and fault-finding always. He is a widower, or rather, I should 
say, he and his wife are incompatible in temper and could not 
live together. lie is loaded with the responsibility of main- 
taining an idiotic son ; and as this son can be better provided 
for at Tewksbury than anywhere else he keeps him there, and 
when he is out of work himself he finds Tewksbury a very 
happy sanctuary to which to resort. He gives us instances of 
acts of cruelty (page 624); things done by Smith,— you saw 
Smith here,— and if there is anything in the face pf that man 
Smith that would lead you to suspect he could be guilt}' of that 
act, you saw something which I didn’t. Then there was Good- 
win, who had another trouble (page 357) ; but I will not spend 
anytime on that. Then there was Otto Holden (page 374). 
Hattie A. Jackson was not properly treated; she had too much 
work to do. Then there was that immaculate person, Cornelius 
H. O’Brien, concerning whom the record shows he was fourteen 
times indicted, convicted, and served his sentences or paid his 
fines. What an angel he was ! Well, there was that woman, 
Catherine Powers, who in her own home was drunk a greater 
portion of her time, and allowed her own children, some of them 
begotten when she was drunk, and who inherited the peculiarities 
which might come from that condition of things — three or 
four of them idiots — whenever they were thrown upon her care 
to get lousy, and become covered with vermin, as appears from 
the testimony of the officer from Cambridge. She found fault. 
Margaret Terry was another one. Then that sweet saint, Abby 
E. Wheeler, who has been for the last fifteen years in all the public 
charitable institutions in the Commonwealth, I think. Then 
there was another one, Frank E. Haberlin ; he hadn’t received 
proper treatment, and he told you wherein that maltreatment 
consisted. I will not spend any time on his story. He was the 
man that served with Banks on Roanoke Island, and belonged 
to the 156tli New York; and I should have proved he was a 
deserter if His Excellency had permitted me to put in the testi- 
mony. 
The Chairman. I don’t remember that you offered it. 
Mr. Brown. I ottered bis declaration to that effect. 1883.] 
HOUSE - No. 300. 
XIX 
The Chairman. I think you are outside of the record. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t object; I don’t want you to, Mr. 
Chairman. 
Mr. Brown. Then there was Bowen. We all remember 
little Eva. She was a remarkable character, and had a remark- 
able history. When this investigation began, it found her 
leading an obscure life in a den of infamy in New York. Her 
friend — and everybody knows what a prostitute’s friend is — 
wrote to the governor, and the governor sent for Eva. I can 
imagine the feelings of that remarkable creature, as she set out 
by rail from New York to come to Boston for an interview with 
His Excellency. She flattered herself that it would be the 
opportunity of her life. She had made up her mind to tell him 
her whole story. She told her story, and ofttimes she “ would 
beguile him ” of his “ tears when ” she “ did relate.some distress- 
ing stroke” her “youth had suffered.” ' You know the rest. 
She went on, and her story being done, he told her he pitied 
her, and I presume he added, in the language of the poet: 
“And yet” he “wished that heaven had made ” him “ such a (wo)-man.” 
She came here ; she told her story. You will remember it; I 
will not recite it. Suffice it to say — of course I don’t know 
anything about this; I only infer it.— that when I got through 
with her, and His Excellency found out exactly what sort of a 
character she was, he must have said to himself: “ Well, after 
forty years’ experience in the profession in dealing with all kinds 
of characters, this is the first time ever any woman ever suc- 
ceeded in capturing me by my own credulity.” Why, she told 
His Excellency that the misfortune which came upon her in her 
youth was the result of an association with a distinguished mem- 
ber of the Suffolk bar, a man in high social position, that his 
name was the same as that of one of the early presidents of the 
United States. That is what she told him. But, unfortunately 
for her, she had several times made a declaration, and the State 
officer, Mr. Tripp, had reduced it to writing, and in the records 
of the board of health, lunacy and charity was found her decla- 
ration taken on the 28th day of July, in the year in which she 
was sent to Tewksbury, two days after her arrival there, in 
which she said that the father of her child, was one Matthew 
Hearn, an artist on Hanover Street, who was so obscure that 
His Excellency hasn’t been able to find him'yet. I venture, Mr. 
Chairman and gentlemen, to say that the history of Massachu- XX 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
setts will never be written by the pens of the prostitutes who 
have left her borders ; neither will the judgment of this com- 
mittee ever be made up on the testimony of that syphilitic being, 
Eva Bowen. 
I come now to the attendants. First are Mr. and Mrs. 
Barker. Mrs. Barker enjoyed the reputation of being a very 
jealous and quarrelsome woman. Whether she was jealous of 
her husband or not, the record doesn’t show. But the signifi- 
cant fact in regard to their story is this: it chiefly relates to the 
methods of bathing; and the declaration of Mr. Barker that 
there were no individual bath-tubs in this institution, Ave showed 
to be absolutely false, because we exhibited the bills — and we 
have them here — shewing the individual bath-tubs in that 
institution Avere bought and paid for, years before, when the 
building was erected — individual bath-tubs of iron, the same 
that are there iioav ; and we have shoAvn to you beyond all ques- 
tion that if there was any lack of proper bathing of the inmates 
it was because they, Barker and his wife, Avere too lazy to attend 
to their duty. The evidence is uncontradicted that in Barker’s 
department he was charged with that duty, that it belonged to 
him and to nobody else ; and it Avas further shown that no lack 
of attention on that subject was ever brought by him to any 
officer of the institution—never. What shall wre say of the tes- 
timony of a man who says the inmates were bathed in water such 
as he described, Avlien there was no necessity for anything except 
an individual bath in pure water? All you had to do was to 
turn the faucet; hot and cold Avater came in in some instances, 
in other instances the cold water came in and it was heated by 
steam. But if there was any lack of apparatus there, was the 
management of Tewksbury responsible? I will come to that 
by and by. 
Now I come to Ananias Dudley, and Sapphira his Avdfe, whose 
testimony appears upon pages 62 and 212. Mr. Dudley’s rec- 
ord was that of a discharged attendant for drunkenness from 
the hospital in Maine. Ilis record at Tewksbury, uncontra- 
dicted as it is, Avas that he invested in a croquet set to the 
neglect of other duty. That is not contradicted. See the 
testimony of Mr. Thomas Marsh, Sr. 
Now, Dudley and his Avife told the same story as Bar- 
ker did in regard to the bathing, and Mr. Dudley denies, 
as Barker did, that there were individual bath-tubs. I 
got out of Mrs, Dudley a confession that there lingered 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XXI 
iii her mind a faint recollection that there were one or 
two individual bath-tubs in the department over which she 
and her husband presided. lie told you the story of the 
Barron woman, and the acts of cruelty to her; that he 
went there, inspected the quarters; found a woman who had 
been confined in a cell for years for aught he knew; she 
was emaciated, covered with vermin, her cell was besmeared 
with filth and excrement from the human body; he washed 
and cleaned her up, and cheered her up, so that in a short time 
she became so fat and so happy that her husband didn’t recog- 
nize her. What is the fact, — the uncontradicted testimony of 
three witnesses who attended the Barron woman? That the 
man Dudley kept that woman in the same cell for four months 
after he went to the institution, fed by the same food and helped 
by the same woman, who is called an idiotic inmate, until she, 
the insane woman, was removed to another place, and was 
taken out from under his charge. There is no contradiction 
of any witness on that subject, not a syllable. Ananias 
Dudley ! 
Then Jennie Pope told you a remarkable story ; that she 
was a helpmate in the kitchen of Capt. Marsh, and she, stand- 
ing at her window one day, saw a woman kicked up the asphalt 
walk from the office to the insane department. Now, gentle- 
men, take the map and look; from that kitchen window 
her view was obstructed from the entire walk, and every walk 
that led to the insane department. She could only see about 20 
feet of the end of the building, on her right side, on her right 
hand, which, at the time that occurrence was said to have 
taken place, had not been built. To-day you can only see about 
20 feet of that end. The obstacle intervening is a large two-story 
building, with a basement, in which the office is located ; and 
the only way you can account for her story is that she had the 
faculty of looking through four partition walls of a three-story 
building. So much for her. 
Then we have that sweet-tempered creature, Agnes Calder. 
She was here yesterday. She swore that Dr. Lathrop wasn’t 
at the institution when the affair took place which she related in 
her testimony, and yet the auditor’s report for 1876, I think it 
is, recites, under the head of attendance, “Dr. Lathrop, from 
the 1st day of October, 1875,” and that return to the auditor 
was upon the oath of Mr. Marsh, Sr., or it could never have 
got into that report. It was also certified by the board of in- XXII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
spectors. The record shows, (page 2006,1 think it is,) that Dr. 
Lathrop testified that he went to that institution on the 1st da}r 
of October, 1875; and yet Calder swears, in the most positive 
way, —and 1 asked her to repeat it three times, so there might 
be no mistake about it, —that she left the institution six years 
ago the first day of July of this year. The record of the in- 
spectors shows that on the 4th day of September,—eleven months 
lacking three days after Dr. Lathrop went there, — he made a 
report to the inspectors, showing that that very case which 
is now before you had been brought to their attention, and on 
his report to them, and upon their investigation, they declared 
that Agnes Calder had made a declaration that the facts related 
by her previous to that time, and now repeated here, were 
untrue. And yet she says that Dr. Lathrop wasn’t in the 
institution. His Excellency gets out of it by saying that the 
statute which made him a resident physician had not been 
passed. 
Then there was Mrs. Thomas. She went to the institution, 
remained there for a series of years. She complained of the 
care and management of the children. Her mind was pro- 
foundly imbued with the sacred trust she had in charge while she 
was there, and that deep sentiment never left her until she got on 
the witness-stand, when she delivered herself as follows: To a 
question of His Excellency — “By somebody’s neglect the 
woman was found mangled by rats and found dead?” “Yes, 
sir; but I ivould like to say a word about the butter that was 
made.” The mangling of a human being b}r rats and the 
quality of the butter at the institution were so completely and 
irretrievably mixed up in her mind that she delivered her 
opinion of both in the same sentence. If she was as reliable 
in the story about the rats as she -was in her statement about 
the butter 30U will know precisely how much weight to give 
to her testimony. 
Miss Calder was discharged, Dudley and his wife were dis- 
charged, Dr. AVest was discharged.. The only fact in Dr. 
West’s testimony was in regard to the treatment of a woman in 
travail. I concluded, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, after hear- 
ing the testimony of Dr. Lathrop upon that subject — it being 
always the first duty of the physician to save his patient, and 
that having been successfully accomplished — that his duty was 
performed; that it was done in a most creditable manner. 
He was placed in a difficult position. Dr. AVest had been by 1888.] 
HOUSE—No. 800. 
XXIII 
the side of that woman from three o’clock in the afternoon until 
two or three o’clock in the morning ; he had used every effort 
known to him for her delivery, and nothing had been accomp- 
lished. Dr. Lathrop undertook to perform the terrible duty, 
knowing and understanding as we now do, and as every physician 
understands in a peculiar manner, that his first duty always is 
to save the mother if possible. What he did was without in- 
jury to the mother, and she is now going about this Common- 
wealth rejoicing. 
The Chairman. That isn’t in the record. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. She got well and I presume she 
is rejoicing. 
Gov. Butler. I hope the chairman will not object. 
Mr. Brown. I suppose she is rejoicing if she is well, for 
that is supposed to be the normal condition of mankind. 
Gov. Butler. I hope the committee will allow the gentle- 
man to go on. I will object when my rights are infringed upon. 
The Chairman. I do not think he should go outside of the 
record. 
Mr. Brown. Well, of these nine people out of the 250 at- 
tendants who have been there, four have been discharged. 
There are five who haven’t any known grievance which the record 
shows. Five witnesses out of 250 possibly impartial, to tell 
what they remember. That is the most favorable criticism 
you can put upon their testimony. 
But during this period the character of this institution was 
known to others beside its attendants. It had been visited, as 
I have shown, by a great many persons, commencing with 1861, 
when Gov. Andrew wrote that memorable letter dated the 25th 
day of December. The institution was well known to him. 
In that beautiful letter, addressed to those children, he 
called their attention to the remarkable opportunities which 
they, considering their condition in life, their circumstances and 
surroundings, had, not only for preserving their health, but for 
obtaining an education at the school which then existed at the 
institution. And he commends them, as he says, to his kind 
friend, Captain Marsh. 
I said a little while ago that the lowest average expense in 
any week in this institution was eighty-seven cents per inmate, and 
that was the cost per week for each inmate for the year 1858, when 
Captain Marsh first took charge of the institution. The great- 
est cost in any }rear was in 1882, and then it was $2.09. For- XXIV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
tunately we have had brought into this case by His Excellency 
—and it is the only opportunity we have for making compari- 
son, because to all the cases that I undertook to get in His Ex- 
cellency objected ; I supposed His Excellency was willing to 
allow the record of the National Home for Disabled Soldiers to 
be put in, for having had connection with that, he justly felt 
pride in its management — and T read from the record of the 
National Home, to which he referred ns (report 45, page 4) : — 
The whole number supported or eared for during the year ending 
December 1st, 1870, at Dayton, Ohio, 2,101; at eastern branch, Au- 
gusta, Me , 719; at northwestern branch, Milwaukee, Wis., 798; at 
Soldiers’ Home, Philadelphia, 451 ; out-door relief, 71 : making a total 
of 4,194. Number treated in the hospital during the year, 1,667. 
I want you to mark that, gentlemen : 1,667 out of 4.194, — in 
the neighborhood, in rough, of not quite 33 per cent. At 
Tewksbury, those requiring medical assistance, and in the hos- 
pital, numbered upwards of 50 per cent. In 1862 there were 
only two paid attendants at the institution. At present it is 
almost impossible to secure among the inmates, nearly a 
thousand in number, sufficient to wash the floors and do the 
menial service necessary to be done. Only one-third at the 
Soldiers’ Home were treated in the hospital during the year. 
All the service and labor at the asylum are performed by the 
disabled soldiers, at prices from five to twenty-five dollars per 
month (the report says). 
At the central asylum, there was a profit, from work done 
by the inmates, $20,758.82. The asylum realizes from farms 
and gardens, $29,297.28. 
The cost of each inmate per annum at the several asylums 
was $160.79 — 52 weeks in a year — in the neighborhood of $3 
a week, a little over $3 a week. Compare that with $2.09 at 
Tewksbury. 
Gov. Butler. About $3.08. 
Mr. Brown. Well, $3.08. Compare that with $2.09. In 
the one institution there were only 33 per cent, in the hospital, 
and in the other, more than 50 per cent, in the hospital, or dis- 
abled for labor. Compare also the difference in the cost. No 
free attendance except, perhaps, French Joe, who labored for 
his board and clothes, and Burns, alias Burnham, who got $150 
a year; — with those exceptions, no officer has appeared here 
who has received less than $20 a month. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XXV 
At the central asylums the cost of each inmate was $1G0.79 
per annum ; at the eastern asylum, $208.42, almost $4 a week ; 
at the north-western asylum, $182.92 ; an average for the whole 
of $184.04, or more than $3 a week — about $3.50 a week. 
Gov. Butler. $3.39 a week. 
Mr. Brown. Well, $3.39 a week. Now, sir, I have no 
doubt that His Excellency administered the affairs of that insti- 
tution with the same sagacity that he administered his own pri- 
vate affairs. I have no question but what His Excellency bears 
the same feeling toward the paupers, insane or sane, of this 
Commonwealth, that he bore to the disabled soldiers. I think 
the misfortunes of the citizens of this Commonwealth are not 
to be estimated for the purpose of punishing one for the defi- 
ciency, or rewarding one for the success. But when His Excel- 
lency comes to his argument, I want him to tell you why should 
not the paupers, the unfortunate poor, sane and insane, of this 
Commonwealth, be treated with the same degree of kindness, 
and have the same facilities for amusing themselves, and sur- 
rounding themselves with comforts ; and why should not they 
be provided with the same delicious and nutritious diet, as was 
furnished to the soldiers at Dayton and elsewhere? I would 
like him to answer that question. 
I cannot stop, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, to go over all 
the criticisms which have been made upon the management of 
this institution. I take those which stand out most conspicu- 
ously in my mind as requiring my attention. One of the criti- 
cisms made by His Excellency is in regard to the expenditure 
for flowers and bulbs. You recollect Capt, Marsh told you 
what interest those insane women took in the little patches, the 
little flower gardens that may now be seen under the windows 
of the insane building ; how from the time he went to the institu- 
tion up to the time when he was removed he undertook to make 
that little terra plain within the walls of these buildings a para- 
dise, dotted all over with flowers and shrubs and trees. In 
the centre there stood the conservatory, about twenty feet square, 
in which these flowers and bulbs and trees were housed 
in winter, in order that they might be preserved for the succeed- 
ing summer. His Excellency thought that those poor peo- 
ple should not have the benefit of any flowers ; that God’s free 
gifts, which dot every field and every meadow, which beautify 
every tree and every shrub, should not be enjo}’ed by the in- 
sane women and poor decrepit men who hobble about that XXVI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
institution, up and down the walks, but are unable to go 
outside and see the beautiful fields. There should be no flowers 
there. Wouldn’t it be better, he say's, “ that the expense of sup- 
porting that conservatory should be expended in furnishing food 
or other things to these poor inmates?” Well, gentlemen, I 
have not any criticism to make upon that remark but this — I 
want to quote from the 12th chapter of John, the only instance 
of a similar expression of malevolence that I have heard in my 
life. Fortunately for the human race, it was eighteen hundred 
ago and upwards. The thing does not occur except 
about once in nineteen hundred years. I read : 
“ Then Jesus, six days before the passover came to Bethany, 
where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the 
dead. 
“ There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but 
Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. 
“ Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, 
and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair; 
and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment, 
“ Then saitli one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, 
which should betray him, 
“ Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and 
given to the poor? ” 
Now, gentlemen, I come to another topic which requires my 
attention; that is the matter of the foundlings. I under- 
took, because I thought we should be benefited by the informa- 
tion — to show you what experience other institutions had 
had in this country, and that was excluded. We are now 
left simply and solely upon the evidence which has been 
produced here. The register of deaths, the reports of the in- 
stitution made from year to year, I presume correctly and accu- 
rately set forth the alarming extent to which these infants died. 
We have no disposition to deny a single fact. We have no dis- 
position to undertake to get rid of the responsibility of that 
fearful mortality. But I say to you, gentlemen, that from 
the beginning to the end of the foundling experience, 
in this country or Europe ,you will not find an institution 
situated similarly to that in Tewksbury'. Not another institu- 
tion has ever been heard of — and I challenge contradiction — 
where the foundlings were selected as Mrs. Spear, I think it 
w'as, the matron of the Chardon Street Home, stated. She 
selected only those that she believed could not live, and she 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XXVII 
sent them to Tewksbury. Of all the diseases that flesh is heir 
to,— syphilis, scrofula, everything known in the whole category 
of diseases,— these children had, some one, some all. It was 
an extraordinary thing to find a healthy one. 
Mrs. Spear said in the first place that many of them, very 
many of them, a large percentage of them, when they came to 
the hospital at Chardon Street showed indications that they had 
been drugged ; many of them had syphilis ; many of them in- 
dicated that they had not been properly nourished ; some of 
them died in the arms of the officers as they went up the stairs 
of the institution to put them in a place of quiet and rest; others 
died on the way to Tewksbury; some one or two of them on 
the train ; and, in one instance, when the shawl was unfolded 
in the hospital at Tewksbury, the child was found to be dead. 
Well, His Excellency, seeing the predicament in which his 
cause was placed, thought he would reinforce himself by some 
evidence in rebuttal. He called Mrs. Lydia Warner. No. 
52,2G1 is the register number of Willie Marshall, who was two 
years old, born in Boston, sent to Tewksbury from Boston, as 
the record shows; under “ disease or condition,” “ well.” 
Gov. Butler. What date? 
Mr. Brown. Went to the institution on the 14th day of 
June, 1877 ; discharged on the 14th da}' of June, 1877 ; and 
under the head “Remarks,” entered “nominal admission.” 
[Producing a certificate.] Here, from a public record, is an- 
other declaration upon the same subject: 55,261, Boston, June 
14 — 
Gov. Butler. Let me see that, will you? I have never 
seen it. [Receiving the certificate.] This don’t seem to be 
any public record. Send down and get Mr. Wrightington’s 
record. I object. This is not certified by anybody. 
Mr. Brown. Well, if it is objected to, I don’t propose to 
have any controversy with Plis Excellency. 
The Chairman. If this is not in,—if it is in Mr. Wrighting- 
ton’s book, bring up the book. 
Gov. Butler. It is in Wrightington’s book of history. 
Mr. Brown. So that that record, from which Mrs. Warner 
took the name to show that that infant had been there fourteen 
days, shows that it never was there a day ; if it ever got there 
after sunrise it departed before sunset. So much for Mrs. 
Warner until the other paper comes. Then I call the attention 
of His Excellency to the discharge-book, which is a matter of XXVIII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
public record, open here in this case from beginning to end, in 
which he will find the particulars stated substantially as con- 
tained in the certificate, that that child, for a certain purpose, 
was to be credited to Tewksbury in order to bring it under a pro- 
vision of law which enabled them to take it out of Tewksbury 
and put it into the hands of Mrs. Warner, who is registered on 
that book as living here in Boston, with the name of the street 
given. The fact is, I infer, that the child never went out of 
Boston, never was in the institution ; and when Mrs. Warner 
said it was there fourteen days, she probably saw the date 14th 
of dune, and imagined that meant fourteen da3Ts. 
Gov. Butler. She said she took it herself from Tewksbury. 
Mr. Brown. I know she did. And there is her receipt for 
the child, given here in Boston. 1 don’t care what she said ; 
the record contradicts her. She said she looked at that record 
and saw that the child had been in the institution. 
Gov. Butler. And she has never said any such a thing. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. 
Gov. Butler. I beg pardon. 
Mr. Brown. She said the child was there fourteen dajrs and 
she went after it. 
Gov. Butler. I apologize. 
The Chairman. The record will show. 
Mr. Brown. When the record shows that the child was never 
there a dajr; if it was ever there it was discharged on the same 
day. 
Gov. Butler. I ought not to have interrupted, sir ; I apolo- 
gize for doing it. 
Mr. Brown. Now I come to another subject, and that is the 
subject of the books. And, when you come to consider that, I 
want you to place at the very head of your report the declara- 
tion of His Excellency, and also of Mr. Fairbanks,— if you see 
fit to quote Mr. Fairbanks; if you place any confidence in him 
— the declaration of His Excellenc}T, quote it, please ; put it in 
quotation marks, and say, Book so and so, statement of Gov- 
ernor Butler, — that this set of books is the most accurate he 
ever saw, and “ the most free from blots and erasures.” Now, this 
accurate set of books was the subject of criticism b}r Mr. Fair- 
banks. We have here a statement on the record which was 
prepared by Mr. Fairbanks, for the purpose of showing that 
the management of this institution were feeding a large number 
of people whose names were borne upon the register and were 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XXIX 
not there ; and in that way, the average price per week was 
to be materially enlarged. 
“ Number 52, 261.” [Referring to a book of records.] This 
is the record of Willie Marshall: “ 52,261, Willie Marshall, 
two years, from Boston ” — or at least “ two,” which means their 
years of age. “Boston, June 14, 1877,” “2,” which means 
years of age, “ B,” which means born in Boston, “parents 
Hannah Eliza O’Connors and Hiram Smith ; a ward of Mrs. 
W arner’s.” 
Gov. Butler. Go on. 
Mr. Brown. “Discharged the 14th of June, 1877,” the 
same day that it was entered. 
Now, His Excellency called Mr. Fairbanks on the subject of 
these books ; and Mr. Fairbanks, who is a lawyer, an expert in 
handwriting, an expert in book-keeping, who can tell you when 
he looks at a paper how old it is, just as a horse-jockey looks 
in the mouth of a horse, and is able to tell you when he was born 
— he testified in regard to these books. He charged us with 
feeding in the institution sixty inmates, borne on the register of 
the institution, who were not there, and whose feed in some way 
we were stealing; and that, His Excellency asked you to infer, 
was the way in which we were covering up some of the delin- 
quencies of the institution. Of those sixty, twenty were 
rejoicing in good health at the institution at the very hour when 
he was giving testimony. I have here their names and their reg- 
ister numbers. This appeared in evidence. Of the sixty, the 
discharge-books show that twelve had already been discharged. 
He looked at the register, and didn't look at the discharge-book. 
An expert! Twelve of the sixtj’; that making thirty-two out of 
sixty. Wq accounted for twenty that were living in the institu- 
tion, and twelve were reported as having been discharged and 
were discharged. Plight of them were reported as absconded 
on the register from which he took the figures — the very 
register, the very book. Seven of them, and seven only, had 
absconded and had not been reported. Five out of sixty had 
been discharged, and the books showed they had been dis- 
charged. Six were standing “on liberty,” having gone 
out of the institution, it being undecided whether they might 
not return immediately, and no entry had been made upon 
the books. Two, whereabouts unknown, probably absconded. 
S > that this expert charged us with supporting sixty inmates 
not in the institution, and forty-five of them were accounted XXX 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
for upon the books. And of sixty only fifteen were unaccounted 
for. Only fifteen in twenty-five years. The committee must recol- 
lect this record extended over twenty-five }rears. In twenty- 
five years there were only fifteen persons for whom there had 
ever been drawn a ration, who were not there to eat it. In other 
words, this expert in book-keeping made forty-five mistakes out 
of sixty statements, — forty-five mistakes out of sixty state- 
ments !—'mistakes which he should have corrected if he had had 
the perseverance or the to have looked there into the 
books, or to have looked at reports of the institution sent here 
to this State House, showing the number of inmates present on 
the day when the b«ard of health, lunacy and charity took 
possession. 
This same expert in mistakes goes to another subject and that is 
the inmates’ cash. And he reported to this committee fifty-four 
cases ; onty fifty-four out of three thousand six hundred entries. 
The books devoted to keeping inmates’ cash, cash memorandum 
books, were three in number. The first was an old book, not 
in the handwriting of Charles Marsh. The second was num- 
bered one and not in the handwriting of Charles Marsh. Mr. 
Fairbanks said he could not find an entry in that book that he was 
willing to swear to. The third was entirely in the handwriting 
of Charles Marsh. He took occasion to make the reservation 
afterwards that he did not examine the first book and that 
was not included in his early testimony. There are twenty- 
six hundred names on the last two books which he did 
examine, and from which he selected these fifty-four in- 
stances. Now, I am not going to take the time of this 
committee in going over in detail each one of these cases. 
There are three cases which stand out prominently, — the case 
of Ellen Allen, the case of Ludwig, and the case of Johnson. 
Now, this was simply a memorandum book and nothing else. 
Mr. Marsh told }’ou how he kept it. Gentlemen, if any mem- 
ber of your committee can think of any manner in which that 
book could be kept with greater safety to the institution and its 
officers, and with more security to the inmates, I should be very 
glad to hear it. Remarkable it is, gentlemen, that out of thirty- 
six hundred inmates who had cash which was handled at this 
institution, only two have been found who could come here 
and make complaint. Two out of thirty-six hundred. 
Now let us take the case of Ellen Allen. First, did Ellen 
Allen have any money when she went to this institution? That 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
XXXI 
is the lirst thing to be settled, because if she never had any 
she never should have been credited with any. Well, Rich- 
ard Morey, a bo}', who was a minor when the transaction 
took place, comes here and tells you that, sitting at his father’s 
fireside one evening in 1877, he overheard his father and mother 
discussing the subject of the amount of money which the sister, 
Mrs. Ellen Allen, had. The subject under discussion was 
this: She was going to Tewksbury; be heard something 
mentioned about $150, and he came here to tell you that 
Ellen Allen had $150. He didn’t know aiiything about it. 
There is no tribunal in this Commonwealth that would ever have 
received that in evidence ; not one. He heard that conversation 
between his father and his mother. On his direct examination 
he led you to believe that Ellen Allen was present. Subse- 
quently, if I remember correctly, it turned out that Ellen Allen 
was upstairs. No officer of this institution was present. All 
there was of this matter was hearsay evidence — every syllable 
of it; they might have been talking about something else. 
They might have been talking that night in regard to the 
amount of the mortgage on his father’s house as it then existed. 
The evidence shows there was a mortgage on it. But look 
at it. That is taken as testimony. And then she is credited 
with a dollar, and they say we have stolen $149. And after 
this book has been in this State House for three months, ex- 
amined in the first instance with great care by Mr. Fairbanks, 
and 1 put the question to him as to whether there was anything else 
about any of these entries that he discovered, that he wanted to 
testify about, and he said there was not, they discovered that 
there was a yellow stain on that entry, and they bring a chemist 
in here to say that that entry had been touched by acid. I 
offered to show that no stain existed on that entry when it came 
to this State House ; and that wras excluded for want of time. 
Now, what is the evidence on the other side? Why, Mr. Has- 
kell, one of the overseers of the poor in the town of Gloucester, 
at the very hour almost,—on the same day, or the day after,— 
when that conversation took place, this man Morey, the father 
of the witness, the brother of Ellen Allen, was an applicant 
to him for aid to his sister. In other words, he wanted 
to get the city of Gloucester to take Ellen Allen and support 
her. Mr. Haskell looked into it, and found she had no settle- 
ment in Gloucester, and he told Mr. Morey that he would have 
to take her to Tewksbury. And the overseers of the poor of XXXII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
city of Gloucester paid Mr. Morey five dollars to transport Ellen 
Allen to Tewksbury. And then the committee allowed me to 
put in—because they had allowed- Richard Morey to testify— 
they allowed me to put in a conversation between the old man 
Morey and Mr. Haskell, which was in substance this: that he 
didn’t know of any money she had. She had some dresses and 
some jewelry,—nothing said about the value, — but he didn’t 
know of any money she had, except he had heard that in 
Gloucester, before she went away, she sent somebody down town 
to change a fifty-dollar bill. Well, if there is any member of 
this committee that would charge his neighbors with one-tenth of 
a cent on that evidence, I think Ms neighbors are in a very 
insecure situation. 
Now take the next case ; that of Ludwig. Ludwig went to 
the institution, he says, with $37. He is credited with $3.77. 
and His Excellency said that was one of a great number of in- 
stances where the real sum had been divided by ten. Well, I 
pity the clients of His Excellency if the division by ten of 
thirty-seven leaves 3.77. But that is the only instance he 
found. He never found any other, never mentioned any 
other — never, if I recollect right, and I think I do. It is 
like the promise four times made on the record in regard to 
the treatment of bodies at Harvard College, that he would con- 
nect it with Tewksbury; but he never did. He could not. 
Why, he hadn’t the courage to renew his application to show 
you that Eklund ever went to Harvard College, because he 
knew that the burial book of the institution showed that 
Eklund died on the 3d of August, 1879, and was buried. 
And he didn’t dare to open the grave or to make application 
for the opening of the grave. And upon the evidence to-day 
Eklund is there in his grave, and there is no evidence before 
this committee that this piece of skin was not made up for 
this occasion; it is not accounted for in any way, shape or 
manner; it is thrown in here, like five or six other pieces, to 
be interred hereafter with proper ceremony, at least what re- 
mains after a proper distribution as souvenirs among the friends 
of His Excellenc}'. 
Now I come to another subject. Or, rather, I should say 
this: Mr. Fairbanks, finding fifty-four inaccuracies in the 
inmates’ cash-book, says .that he didn’t make thirty-six mis- 
takes. I will submit the record to any man that can read, and 
see if he does not, on comparison of the books with Mr. Fail’' 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
XXXIII 
banks’ testimony, find thirty mistakes, thirty egregious blunders. 
In seven of the cases where the money is charged as having 
been embezzled, it is recorded on the cash-book as having been 
paid into the treasury of the Commonwealth. There are thirty 
out of fifty-four, — and I have made a tabulated statement of 
the testimony on both sides, every syllable of it, — there are 
thirty inexcusable mistakes out of fifty-four, and there cannot 
be any escape from it. Why, that man imagined he saw an 
ink-mark where none ever existed ; and in two instances the 
record shows that as I walked around on the other side and put 
that glass on to it the man wavered, and then on cross-examina- 
tion he admitted he had made a mistake ; two instances on 
the record which I have tabulated here. Thirty mistakes out 
of fifty-four! He is an expert in mistakes. He is as bad as 
Agnes Calder. 
Now there is another matter you are to consider, gentle- 
men, in making up your report as to whether this man Charles 
Marsh, or any officer of this institution, embezzled this money. 
If they embezzled the money, }~ou must find a motive. It' is 
very easy to find a motive for the embezzlement of money. 
Money is something we all need and can all use, and it is easy 
to find a motive. Now when you have found a motive you 
want to go one step further and you want to ask whether this 
is the performance of an idiot or a knave. Well, it must 
have been the performance of an idiot, if there was any dis- 
honest purpose, for seventeen out of these fifty-four cases 
are cases where people have absconded; and the Lord only 
knows but they might have turned up fifteen minutes after 
the entry had been made and the money stolen. What a 
risk a man would take ! Would an honest man or any man 
less than a fool take the responsibility of stealing money 
from seventeen absconded individuals who are likely to turn 
up at any moment? Can you imagine such a thing? Why, 
the dead can never come back. A man who had that op- 
portunity, if he was a knave, would steal from the dead, 
wouldn’t he? 
Seven or eight of these men had been discharged ; regularly 
discharged. Where were they ? Ellen Allen died ; Ludwig was 
discharged; and when he was discharged his money, $2.10, was 
put into the hands of Mr. Doane, who says he saw it, or at 
least he saw that he had a small amount of money. Mr. Doane 
paid the fare of Ludwig, because the amount of money he had XXXIV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
was so small that he didn’t think he ought to decimate it any 
further. Ludwig never complained to Doane when he left the 
institution ; he came to Boston, and took his gratuitous ticket 
for his home and never opened his head, either at the institution 
or at the office below, that be had been defrauded out of any 
mone}*. 
In the case of Johnson the facts are even more remarkable. 
He went to the city hospital — he was the man who had his 
legs cut off— in Boston, and remained there sometime before he 
ever called for his money. Me went to the hospital to have an 
amputation performed before he ever called for his money. He 
called for it from time to time at the institution, generally 
through a nurse whose name was given ; Charles Marsh said he 
did not see him; the entry was in Charles Marsh’s handwriting. 
Now, after Charles Marsh so testified, why did they not produce 
the nurse to see whether it is true? The evidence has been met, 
and nothing has been said in reply except that there was a stain 
found. No claim was made that any misappropriation of money 
had taken place until this investigation began. Why wasn’t 
some person put on besides Johnson and Ludwig? 
Gov. Butler. The stain was there, but it was made legible. 
Mr. Brown. And your expert said there was another stain, 
and in another case the original entry was less than the one 
you said existed ; it had been written over it showing that Mr. 
Marsh had given the man a dollar when he made the change, if 
he did it for a purpose. 
Now, why, out of 3,600 persons, scattered about this Com- 
monwealth and throughout the country, is not some one else 
brought here ? Don’t they know of this proceeding ? Is there 
anybody on the face of this earth that hasn’t heard of it? Two 
persons only out of 3,600 come here to make complaint. 
Again, it is said that this institution is mismanaged, because 
the law in regard to the disposition of the dead has been vio- 
lated. We are told that the manner in which we have done this 
business is illegal. What is the evidence of it? Let us see. 
We have had a law on the statute books since 1814 in regard to 
this subject. In that year the legislature passed a law which 
in substance prohibited the removal or carrying away of any- 
body without authority of the board of health, and under that 
inhibition it was understood that no body could be used or taken 
for anatomical purposes. 
From 1814 to 1830, sixteen }Tears, the great necessities of 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XXXV 
the medical profession, the great benefit to the sick, the benev- 
olent advantage which education derived and acquired from the 
dissecting-room would give to the profession, were fully dis- 
cussed, and in 1830 the legislature of Massachusetts passed its 
first law upon the subject, wThich provided that bodies which 
required to be buried at the public expense, and strangers and 
travellers unidentified, might be, by the board of health, over- 
seers of the poor, selectmen of towns, &c., delivered to physi- 
cians, medical schools, &c., for the promotion of anatomical 
science. All that was required was, that this business should be 
so conducted as not to offend public sentiment. That law re- 
mained upon the statute book until 1834, wdien it was modified 
so that a person who should ask, during his last sickness, that 
his body be buried, could not be used for anatomical purposes. 
Then, in 1845, the law was again changed. In 1855 another 
change was made, one year, mark you, after the establishment 
of this institution — by which there was inserted the provision 
that the superintendent of the state almshouse may do this, he 
not having been previously included, there having been no occa- 
sion to include him in previous legislation. That law was con- 
tinued until 1881, when there was considerable discussion about 
it, and it was finally re-enacted and embodied in the Public 
Statutes. 
This is not a new matter in Massachusetts. The tanning of 
human skins isn’t new in Massachusetts. It is done all over 
this country and all over the world. Anybody7 who visited the 
Centennial Exhibition could have found many specimens of 
human skins tanned and worked into valises, &c. I believe 
the largest exhibition came from Germany. 
Gov. Butler. Wasn’t it France? 
Mr. Brown. Possibly*. The following States of this Union 
have enacted the Massachusetts law almost word for word : 
New Hampshire, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, In- 
diana, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Missouri, 
Iowa, Arkansas, Kansas, Colorado, California and Oregon. 
Bodies of convicts only may be dissected in Maine, New Jer- 
sey, Maryland, Alabama, Tennessee, Nebraska. In Vermont 
any man may, who can get a body7 anyrwliere lawfully, by gift 
or in any other way, can use it just as he sees fit; there isn’t 
any prohibition whatever. In all the other States of the Union 
there is an entire absence of legislation, and what is done I am 
not advised. XXXVI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
There is no doubt that these bodies were delivered to Har- 
vard and other medical colleges, and there is no doubt but 
that bonds were given by these institutions. Whether the bonds 
were sufficient, whether His Excellency, with all his ability as a 
lawyer, could not find some flaw in one of those bonds, isn’t a 
question which you are to consider. If the people of this Com- 
monwealth intend to devote to anatomical uses the bodies of the 
dead who are unknown, who do not when living request burial, 
— if they do not intend to devote such bodies to the interest of 
science for the benefit of the race, I think that this committee, 
finding that these people acted in in good faith, will give them 
credit for it; and that is all we ask. But when His Excellency 
stands here and says that every man who has had to do with this 
business is liable to indictment; that he is going to see that the 
law is executed, and then tells this committee that if a man does 
furnish it will do him no harm, the proposition is absurd; it 
hardly seems possible it could have been made at the time it 
was made, except for the purpose of gaining some temporary 
advantage. 
Now, then, the Chases, John and Joseph his son, the first on 
page 25 and the second on page 256, have testified in regard to 
the manner in which this business was done. Read the testimony 
of John Henry carefully, and beyond the single statement that 
in one coffin there was a billet of wood where a child had gone 
for dissection, you cannot find a s}dlable which can be inter- 
preted in any way so that a reasonable person could take offence. 
He tells you that he dug up two bodies, and two only, during 
all the time he was there, which were sent away ; but he doesn’t 
tell you they were sent to Harvard College; not at all. Not 
a word was said about their going to Harvard College ; and it 
did appear that many were taken up and delivered to friends. 
There was something singular about that case of Parks. 
That grave had a cross at the head of it, on which was written 
legibly, Joseph Parks, October 4, 1879 ; perfectly plain, and 
Chase put it there; he said it was in his handwriting. Mr. 
Innis testified simply to the matter of opening the grave of 
Parks ; and yet, the day before Innis went there, Chase went up 
to find the grave, and notwithstanding he found it, and the 
cross was there, he went to a tree and cut off a twig and stuck 
it in the grave, so that he would know it when he came again. 
Why, you would naturally ask, if the cross was there and the 
grave marked with a name, why put down a twig? Perhaps he 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XXXVII 
was so drunk that he could not read the name, but could feel a 
twig. And then the next day, after having marked the grave, he 
took Mr. Innis up there, and they opened and found that cofFm, 
which, I understand, has since contributed to the warming of 
the executive department. 
Mrs. Manning, a peculiar, old-maidish sort of a woman, testi- 
fied in her peculiar wa}T. She was a good deal disturbed ; she 
had never met Ilis Excellency before, and didn’t know how 
genial he was when you get at him, and, consequently, she was 
a good deal discomfited. With that exception, she appeared 
to be an excellent woman. She was honest enough to say 
she was carrying on the business, although she didn’t know 
what was in the cofiin. 
Now, Mr. Hall. I want to call your attention to one subject 
in connection with Mr. Hall and Mr. Chase. The two Chases 
and Hall corroborate all the witnesses in regard to the Harvard 
medical college. Chase says he never knew but one or two 
babies to be sent to the Harvard Medical School. Mr. Ilall 
says that none were sent, except during the last part of the 
time when he was at the institution. Then he testifies in regard 
to the money he received for his labor, and there was an insinu- 
ation about that receipt which he gave; he denied first the 
amount of money, and then afterwards corrected himself. 
There was an insinuation that the receipt was written in three 
different kinds of ink, which turned out to be false, like all the 
other insinuations we have had. 
This whole business, gentlemen, was the subject of investiga- 
tion by the board of trustees. In September, 1882, the trus- 
tees called upon Mr. Marsh, Jr., who had been charged with 
this work from the 1st of October, 1873. They had consulted 
with him from time to time, but then they called upon him for a 
specific report in writing covering the whole business. He had 
kept memoranda in certain books, which contained the register 
number and name of the person, the date of his death, and 
where the body was sent. Mr. Nourse having received that — 
Gov. Butler. I must object to that. There is no such 
testimony. 
Mr. Brown. I beg pardon. You will find it in the testi- 
mony of Mr. Nourse, who said he took those books in the 
presence of the four trustees, examined and corrected them 
by the record which Marsh had made ; and the record of the 
trustees shows that on the 23th of January, 1883, that report XXXVIII 
CH ARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
had been received from Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., and by them was 
placed on file. I offered the report; put it into the hands of His 
Excellency, who examined it and afterwards objected to its 
being in evidence ; but the committee voted that it should go 
into the hands of the chairman, where it now remains, and any 
time His Excellency wants it published it can be done. I do not 
object to it, nor do my clients object to its publication, nor to 
other use you want to make of it. But Mr. Marsh refused 
to produce the books. I offered him as a witness after his re- 
fusal, and His Excellency objected, because he said he was in 
contempt; the committee sustained the objection, and sus- 
pended the matter until it was too late, so he did not testify7. 
And that remarkable cross-examination, which for four months 
we have been told would take place if Tom Marsh went on the 
stand, did not take place. The play was played, but there was 
no Hamlet. The whole conduct of Mr. Marsh, Jr., has been 
reviewed byT the trustees, and has never been impeached — 
there is not a syllable of evidence to impeach it, nor can it 
be impeached on this evidence, because I know His Excel- 
lency, whatever he may say about it, took great care not 
to ask any witness the number of bodies delivered from 
October 1st, 1873, to October 1st, 1882. When Ur. Talbot was 
on the stand he testified that all they had was 148, but he wasn’t 
asked how many of the 148 were received prior to the first day 
of October, 1882 ; and yet His Excellency’ claimed he wanted 
to get all the data for the purpose of verifying this account. 
He may claim on some evidence that there were 585 bodies de- 
livered. There is no doubt about it. 1 think the record of 
March 23, 1880, shows that on that day Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., 
made a supplemental report, which was received and placed on 
file, covering the bodies delivered from the 1st of October, 
1882, up to that time. That wasn’t any part of the 585, nor 
did His Excellency ever ask for it, but he may have it if he 
asks for it; it is in the hands of the chairman, or if not it 
will be. His Excellency never intended to examine Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr., — never. I think His Excellency’s great ability, 
and that most remarkable ingenuity for which he has had the 
reputation for being the chief for 40 years, was never better 
shown than when he beguiled this committee, or the majority of 
them, into the notion that a man who has never been summoned 
as a witness may be in contempt, because he doesn’t do what 
the committee have ordered him to do. The proposition was so 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XXXIX 
absurd that only 40 odd Democrats out of the 90 odd in the 
House sustained it. There wasn’t 50 per cent, of His Excel- 
lenc}’’s own party who could see anything in it. The people 
are very apt to come to the same conclusion when they think 
alike concerning the Republic. His Excellency laughs; he 
ought to; he played the most consummate joke on the ma- 
jority of this committee that was ever perpetrated within my 
knowledge, and it was all because he didn’t dare to face Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr.,— nothing else. 
Well, now, who is Thomas J. Marsh, Jr.? His Excellency 
has taken care to say a great many times that he has been 
reported as a licentious person ; that he has been doing this, 
and that, and the other. Any evidence of it? Not a bit. 
Why, in 1876, an officer of the board of charities addressed a 
long epistle — I think the governor will agree with me when I 
say that officer had a great liking for long epistles — to the 
gentleman who then occupied the chair of His Excellency, pre- 
ferring certain charges against Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., not of his 
own knowledge, but he mentioned three prostitutes who had so 
reported. The inspectors or trustees investigated and made a 
report, that letter having been referred to them by the gover- 
nor. They made a report to the governor denying the whole 
thing; they said, in substance, there was no evidence of the 
truth of the charge ; and the governor reported back that that 
was very satisfactory. Gentlemen, you are not going to sit 
here and say Gov. Rice is not a careful man. He certainly 
enjoys the reputation of being a good, successful business man. 
You are not going to sit here and say he whitewashed that 
matter. But His Excellency finds fault because the trustees 
didn’t spend more time in the investigation. Why should they ? 
Why, if one of His Excellency’s trusted clerks down below 
should be charged by three strumpets with being a licentious 
person, that clerk having been in his employ fifteen }rears and 
he having almost absolute confidence in him, the first thing His 
Excellency would do, if they were within reach, would be to 
kick them out of doors; he wouldn’t spend the time those 
trustees did investigating the complaint against Mr. Marsh. 
Then something has been said about an empty coffin, and we 
have accounted for that. In the name of reason what should 
the superintendent of this almshouse do writh a rough coffin 
which had lain in the grave for a longer or shorter period and 
contained a human body, when the friends came for it? Is the XL 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apt. 
Commonwealth so economical that it requires its officer to 
purify that box and use it again? Or must it be taken, in the 
interest of economy and reform, to be burned as firewood? Or 
is it the sensible and proper and natural thing which a man 
would do to put it back in the grave, as two or three witnesses 
said was done. There has been no contradiction of it, not a 
syllable. Mr. Chairman, I challenge any member of the com- 
mittee to put his finger on a single instance where a body which 
went into a grave was taken up and sent to a medical school. 
The only approach to it was the case of Parks, testified to b}' 
Mr. Chase. I had but one witness who could meet the case 
of Parks, and that was Thomas Marsh, Jr., and you know the 
history of that transaction, how it was not permitted him to 
testify. With the exception of Parks, not a single other bod}T 
ever went into a grave and came out and went to a medical 
school. 
But Chase was discharged for drunkenness and disobedience. 
Marsh had known him as a boy in the Sabbath school, took 
pity on him although he knew he was an intemperate man 
and tried him. After a while he got drunk and was reprimand, 
ed. Then the old man Marsh used his influence with the 
trustees to have him retained, but the second and third time he 
got so intoxicated that he could not attend to his business. 
They had to discharge him, and from that time to the present 
his mouth has been filled with slander, and his stomach a good 
portion of the time with rum. It was pretty well filled when he 
was on the witness-stand. 
Thomas J. Marsh, Jr., has been in the employ of that board 
for twenty-two years,—sixteen }’ears when this thing took 
place. Mr. Nourse and all the other officers of the institution 
had the most implicit confidence in him. When this com- 
munication came, in which three notorious prostitutes, who were 
named, were stated to have made charges against him, they 
went to him and consulted with him; they found from his 
appearance and his surroundings (living with his wife and 
family), that there was not the slightest foundation for the 
charge, and they so reported ; and the officer who made that 
complaint, for these seven years has been absolutely silent; 
has never reiterated the charge, or intimated to anybody that 
that the report was not satisfactory. Has he? He probably, 
from the sense of honor with which he is known to be possessed, 
felt ashamed ; and that accounts for the fact that for a series of 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XLI 
years he lias co-operated with the Marsh family in the manage- 
ment of this institution. That is all there is against Thomas 
J. Marsh, Jr. ; everything. And yet he has been slandered 
here without the slightest scintilla of evidence. No inmate, no 
attendant, no officer, no outsider ever called to cast one single 
breath on his character ; not one. I challenge you to point 
your finger to a syllable of such evidence, except what is con- 
tained in that letter and the reply ; not one. 
I need not say, Mr. Chairman, that in the prosecution of this 
defence 1 have been obliged to invoke assistance. I believe 
that His Excellency has had at his command some ten or 
twelve police officers under pay of the Commonwealth. I have 
yet to know that Mr. Moses Sargent, who is a citizen of this 
Commonwealth and has been for years, a man well known in 
the public service of our great banking institutions as a most 
successful and trustworthy officer, has done anything which has 
not been strictly in accordance with his duty, in the interest of 
the prosecution of this defence, upon the principle which I 
announced at the outside, that everything known to us would 
be unfolded. He went to Mrs Warner undoubtedly ; I admit it. 
When he found that Mrs. Warner would lie to the extent of 
saying that a child, which wasn’t in the institution a day, had 
been there fourteen days, he did tell her he didn’t want anything 
to do with her. As an honest man he could not do anything 
else. 
There is one subject to which I want to call the attention of 
this committee, and that is the matter of these old clothes. 
Why, two of the governor’s witnesses — the two clothes-dealers 
— testified that the clothes they bought of the women were the 
clothes of the women of the family, — nobody’s else. Disap- 
pointed His Excellency was in that, I have no doubt. Then 
Miss Pope says she saw Mrs. Marsh in the baggage-room. Mrs. 
Thomas says she saw Mrs. Marsh in the baggage-room with an 
armful of clothing. Well, what of it? Mrs. Marsh was the 
matron ; she had a right to be everywhere. We met that as care- 
fully and fairly as could possibly be asked of us. But you say a 
box that went to Exeter. This man Manning was on his death- 
bed. You will see at the very time he has had that door drawn 
to look through the crevice in the partition wall, there wasn’t 
any door from that corridor into the vestibule into which he took 
that box. I think the committee have in their minds a little 
sketch made upon white paper, upon which Mr. Dudley put his XLII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
initials, that showed where he left it. In order to get that box 
through that door it must go through a solid partition. Where 
is the crevice? Where is Carrigan, who searched all the depots, 
ransacked all the files of the Boston & Maine and Lowell roads? 
Gov. Butler. I must object. So far as I am concerned I 
don’t care ; but I do not like to have any man abused here who 
has nothing to do with it. You may say what you please of 
me. 
Mr. Brown. I will change it: All the files were accessible 
to you and Mr. I unis, and you haven’t brought in a receipt; 
and you haven’t brought in anything except the mere pittance 
of personal furniture and the barrels of apples. 
The Chairman. Two barrels ; let’s have it right. 
Mr. Brown. Two barrels ; and those apples grew in a year 
when apples were worthless, and the trustees said Mr. Marsh 
might send off those barrels. 
The old-clothes business is simply ridiculous. Because it is 
true that all these things went away from Tewksbury to other 
places, His Excellency had all the files and receipts of the rail- 
road and express companies examined, and none were brought 
in here except those referred to. 
There is one other subject to which I want to refer and then I 
propose to close. The old gentleman Marsh, whom Ilis Excel- 
lency says is honest, he has administered this institution for 
25 3’ears, handling two millions of dollars, superintending the 
erection of all these buildings except the main one, built in 
1854 ; he has dealt in the matter of permanent supplies, includ- 
ing clothing, with 6,137 purchasers; lie has made purchases of 
food aggregating over half a million dollars ; these parties are 
within the reach of His Excellency’s subpoena, yet not one 
comes here. The firm of Bangs & Horton say they made a mis- 
take in charging to Marsh personally the coal that went to the 
institution. It was paid with the superintendent’s check, but 
the testimony is uncontradicted that it went to the institution. 
But they say Marsh supported his family at Exeter. He 
helped them. 1 wonder if a man hasn’t a right to help his 
daughter and grandchildren. Anybody deny that? But what 
evidence is there that a single penny of the Commonwealth’s 
money went to the support of that family? I leave Mr. Marsh 
with that reputation which this committee and this community 
will accord to him after 25 years of public service, during which 
no man in the Commonwealth so carefully and so fully ap- 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XLIII 
predated the exigencies of a great institution, and the needs of 
the deserving poor placed under his charge. 
Now, gentlemen, I want, in the few minutes left to me, — 
Gov. Butler. You haven’t an}’ left by my watch. 
Mr. Brown. I have by my watch. You cannot cut me off. 
The Chairman. Seven minutes. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t mean to. You may go as long as 
you mean to. 
Mr. Brown. There is one other subject I want to call atten- 
tion to. His Excellency began years ago to assault this insti- 
tution ; for what purpose I know not; and if I knew I should 
not mention it. His Excellency says he can run this institution 
for fifty1' or seventy thousand dollars. God save the Com- 
monwealth of Massachusetts and its poor. 
This institution lias never been properly supported by the 
people of this Commonwealth. Why the people who were 
born, or descended from those who once lived in Ireland, who 
fled from the misery and tyranny of the rule of Great Britain, 
who thronged this institution and made more than fifty per 
cent, of its inmates, should ever stand up in any public 
place and say that this institution is too prodigally supported, 
is something I cannot understand. This institution needs 
$25,000 a year more than it has ever had. This year you 
appropriated $90,000. The first six months found you having 
spent nearly $44,000 of that amount, and during the last 
two months of that six, the expenditure was vastly in excess of 
either of the previous four months, and on the 1st of July the 
amount of unpaid bills exceeded several thousand as you can 
learn by going to the auditor’s office. So that had the account 
been squared on the first day of July it would have been seen 
that the amount expended at the institution during the first six 
months of the year would have been considerably in excess of 
the appropriation. 
I am permitted to read and desire to make as a part of this 
argument a portion of a private letter, which aptly sets out the 
necessities of this institution. 
Mrs. Leonard says : — 
“ The room for storage is inadequate and primitive in an absurd 
degree; the storehouse, too, is like the poorest kind of country gro- 
cery, very different from the convenient rooms with shelves, cup- XLIV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
boards, etc., in all our other institutions; meals are sent round the large 
quadrangle in tin pails, borne by decrepit old men, when a little 
tramway and cars are used in the State hospital, with elevators when 
needed. Trees should be planted, turf substituted for cobblestones 
in the yard; most of all, hospital kitchens, rooms for isolating 
delirium tremens and infectious classes; in short, various hospital 
appliances, easy and wheeled chairs, sofas of some cheap sort, both 
in the hospitals and insane departments. A feeble, sick person must 
now be in bed all the time or sit up on a hard wooden chair. I was 
pained to see the suffering caused by want of change of position to 
the sick. In our lunatic hospitals all sorts of comforts are at hand 
for the sick and dying. Tewksbury has only a straw bed, coarse and 
clean, it is true, and the cheapest wooden chairs. And this is because 
the State makes too small an appropriation; $ 10,000 ought to be 
spent there in making room for stores, railway, hospital kitchen, 
easier seats for sick, old and insane. And these things are not lux- 
urious, but necessities to the care of the infirm. Many sick and lame 
would recover faster if able to take the air in wheeled chairs. The 
attendants (female) are first-class now, but too few. Male attend- 
ance is now good, but too few also. The accommodations of food 
and lodging for officers and attendants is plain and reasonably com- 
fortable, no more. Respectable people would not work anywhere 
for less comfort. Captain Marsh’s table has plain, well-cooked fare, 
not by any means such fare as our more prosperous classes are accus- 
tomed to have, but good enough and neatly served. I think Mrs. 
Marsh is an excellent housekeeper even now at her age. The furni- 
ture, too, is plain and comfortable, no more.” 
Mr. Chairman, if the people of this Commonwealth understand 
what this institution is, and the manner in which its character 
has been changed since it was first organized, the manner in 
which it has been changed since 1862, they will very soon 
realize that the necessities of this institution will require 
that this legislature, or some other in the immediate future, 
shall, — not dictated by party policy, but from pure, disinter- 
ested, benevolent motives,—take and expend on it in the 
various ways indicated by Mrs. Leonard, every dollar which she 
has there named, and not until that is done will there ever cease 
to be the same agitation, the same discussion, and the same 
complaint and fault-finding, limited though it may be in degree, 
which have existed here, and perhaps for a series of years have 
had some foundation. 
Massachusetts will then continue to remain in the position 
which she has always occupied, celebrated all over the world for 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
XLV 
the administration of her public charitable institutions and for 
the spirit of benevolence which everywhere animates her people. 
I thank the committee for their attention. 
The Chairman. Two o’clock, Governor? 
Gov. Butler. Will the committee proceed promptly at 
2 o’clock? 
The Chairman. I think they will. 
A recess was taken till 2 p.m. XLVI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
SIXTlr-SIXTH HEARING. 
Friday, p.m., July 13. 
The committee met in the Green Room at two o’clock, Sen- 
ator Boring of Worcester in the chair. 
The Chairman. The chair will make the same request which 
was made this forenoon, that all present will absolutely abstain 
from any demonstration of applause, and, especially, of dis- 
approbation. The time will come out of the speaker. 
Gov. Butler. I am not afraid of that. 
The Chairman. Well, now, we will call it five minutes past 
two, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Will }rou allow me to make a single remark? 
The'Chairman. Certainly, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. My time is limited and, therefore, any 
demonstration of applause will only limit me so much more, 
and 1 beg any friends of mine that I have got here, not to ap- 
plaud. We will take the applause about four months hence. 
[Applause.] Now you are violating my request at the very 
beginning. 
The Chairman. The chair will add to the remarks of the 
Governor that the doorkeepers will execute the order of the 
committee, and anybody who is found applauding, unless the 
committee otherwise order, will be summarily ejected from the 
room. Now, Governor. 
CLOSING ARGUMENT BY GOY. BUTLER. 
May it please you, Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the 
Committee: I am not of counsel in this case. I occupy 
a different position. If I were in the position of counsel, I 
would be permitted to say many things that, perhaps, in my 
position, I sha’n’t feel myself called upon to say. The 
arguments of counsel to a tribunal are only valuable in so far 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XLVII 
as they bring to the attention of that tribunal such absolute 
facts and matters of evidence as should bear upon the question 
at issue. And if counsel depart from that, then their remarks 
become worse than useless. Counsel rarely, if ever, do that, 
and in this case, while I pardon much to the counsel for the 
defence, yet, if I can show you that his clients have misled him 
and that he has been by their instruction obliged, felt himself 
obliged, to put before you absolute untruths, why, then, you will 
know what amount of allowance to make for the rest of his 
argument. The counsel has made a very severe attack upon a 
very respectable lad}", Mrs. Warner, long engaged in benevolent 
work, and who has come here and told the exact truth. He was 
misled into that by the instruction of one of the Marshes. This 
was it: Mrs. Warner testified that the State authorities gave 
her charge of a child by the name of Willie Marshall; that, 
having been under that charge, having been given that charge, and 
that Willie Marshall being a child of tender age, she nursed it 
and boarded it, as well as she could, under the instructions, 
under the permission of the board of state charities, and it 
was then put into Tewksbury, kept there fourteen days, with- 
out her knowledge ; she followed it and took it out from Tewks- 
bury ; that when she took it out from Tewksbury, — that when 
she put it into Tewksbury, or when it went into Tewksbury 
and while it had been under her charge for from about four 
months previous, the child was an absolutely healthy child, — 
when it came out of Tewksbury, its eyes were running sores 
from syphilitic infection, caught in the institution. But, by kind 
care and management and nursing, the child lived, and is now 
alive, except that it has lost its eyebrows. If she has foisted 
that story upon the committee she don’t deserve any place on 
earth ; and the counsel told you that she had done so, and his 
client, sitting behind him, pointed to the of what was 
called u an improvident entry,” and sa}’s that it was an entry 
that was made in order to give her charge of the child, and the 
child was never at Tewksbury at all, and that she lied. I hold 
in my hand volume 27 of the Tewksbury records, and that will 
show }Tou that Willie Marshall first went to Tewksbury,—didn’t 
go to Tewksbury, — was first entered on the Tewksbury records 
on the fourteenth of June, and, then, in Boston, put into the 
hands of Mrs. Warner, and that again, — now, I will read from 
the record, under No. 53,661, “ Marshall, Willis, two years old, 
from Boston, Oct. 3, 1877 ; entered.” And some initials, which XLVIII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
I don’t know, but, “ Boston, July 8, 1875 ” ; that being the date, 
I suppose, of the birth, “ B,” born, — “ two years old ; Hannah 
Eliza” was the mother ; Hannah Eliza somebody. Then it goes 
on, after giving the history of it, “ two years of age.” Then 
I turn to the record and find “ No. 53,661 ; Willie Marshall, two 
years old, birthplace unknown, well; discharged October 17, 
1877; left,” being a foundling, “ at 103 Kendall Street.” So 
that the record exactly confirms Mrs. Warner; and, 3Tet, only a 
partial record was put before you, and on that was not only this 
good woman accused of being a liar, but Mr. Moses Sargent, — 
it is said that Mr. Moses Sargent, when he first went down to 
talk with her, having found out she was a liar, didn’t want any- 
thing more of her. How widely the counsel’s clients misled 
him, “ Ex”— 1 was about to quote Latin, sir, — but, from one 
learn all. I don’t think he meant it, but I do think his client 
meant it. At least, his client, knowing better, sat still here and 
allowed this woman’s character to be slandered in the presence 
of the Commonwealth. I have sent for the record downstairs 
with this result. 
Now, gentlemen, what is this institution ? This institution 
was founded under a law of ’52, receiving its first patients in 
’54, for the purpose of taking care of all State paupers, that is, 
those born of parents not having any settlement in this State ; 
and, as you know, it requires a certain term of residence in this 
State, or paying certain taxes, which would be both, to get a 
residence. And the counsel, thereupon, thinks it is very 
remarkable that a large percentage of aliens should be found in 
the institution. Why, the institution was not made for any 
others except those who were aliens in the Commonwealth. No 
others could get there, except there was a cheat somewhere. 
And he argues strongly upon that. It was an institution where 
all those who were infirm and poor, should have a home, a house 
of refuge. Now, the question before you is whether that has 
been a proper house of refuge, so conducted and so carried on 
that you will sustain it by your report, and the legislature ought 
to say that there is no further improvements wanted upon its 
management or its conduct. 
Now, then, I come to another part of this matter. This in- 
stitution was under Captain Marsh,— although why lie is called 
captain don’t appear ; certainly it was not for any service in any 
war that was ever heard of,— it was under Capt. Thomas J. Marsh 
from 1858 down to, for twenty-five }rears, last June, and under 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XLIX 
the control of his family. The first }’ears, from 1858 to 1873, 
while there were some complaints, yet there was no actual offi- 
cial complaint; but, in 1873, the board of state charities, 
whose place is now taken by the board of lunacy and cha'it}-. 
made an official complaint to Governor Washburn, of which I 
shall speak more at length hereafter; but no investigation fol- 
lowed. They renewed that complaint to Gov. Talbot, whose 
home was within a half-dozen miles of this institution ; no in- 
vestigation followed. The}r renewed the complaint in ’76 to 
Gov. liice, and he went up there. From that no investigation 
followed. He tells you that he didn’t visit it to investigate it, 
he only went up to look at the institution, and he was careful to 
see that the pots, and pans, and glasses, and crockery-ware was 
all clean, and they had clean dish-cloths, and he came away. 
Isn’t that exactly what he told you? After he came away he 
sent up the very grave charges that were made to the board of 
trustees to investigate. To that I will refer by and by. Mean- 
while, certain specific charges, not amounting to a very great 
deal, not of the board of state charities at all, but of Mr. Sai - 
born, its secretar}', were brought before the legislature in the 
winter of ’76. And they were heard. I said they didn’t 
amount to very much, because they were, substantially, that the 
ventilation was not good, and that the cleanliness wasn’t very 
good, and that one man, an officer in the institution of low 
grade, had got some pauper with child. That was investigated, 
and the committee and Mr. Sanborn got into such a row over 
that investigation that the sergeant-at-arms was called to part 
them, and no special result came from that. “ Ex ”,— there 
goes the Latin again,— from nothing, nothing c ones. Com- 
plaints multiplied ; things were going wrong, or supposed to go 
wrong ; an unwillingness was found all over the State for paupers 
to go there. The grand jury of Suffolk undertook to investigate 
one branch of it, and they called before them Dr. Dixwell and 
examined him, supposing they had jurisdiction,— because it was 
a question of infant bodies at Harvard College, in Boston, and 
I suppose there was some idea that they thereby got jurisdic- 
tion,— but any proper district attorney would tell them that was 
not the place to give them jurisdiction ; it must be investigated 
in Middlesex. And that investigation came to nothing. 
And here is the thing to which I want to call your attention 
just here, that Dr. Dixwell went before that grand jur}r and 
swore precisely as he did here; wrent on a summons, told the* L 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
same story, and nobod}r says that any signs of insanity or anyT- 
thing attached to him at that time, not even queerness in dress. 
That was published in the newspapers. The next thing that 
happened, wras that in the course of certain campaign speeches 
the question of the administration of this almshouse came into 
controversy, or came into notice, and very many things were 
said on the one side and on the other. No investigation fol- 
lowed. In the meantime, the expenditures of the almshouse, 
as your records show, were running up jrear by year. When 
the governor of the Commonwealth delivered his inaugural ad- 
dress, he stated these scandals, taken from the records, and, in 
order that he might not go too far, he said, “ Hasn’t this testi- 
mony been before a grand jury and not denied? ” That addi*ess 
was delivered on the fourth of January. You were told here 
by the counsel that an indignant people rose and demanded an 
investigation. The way investigations are usually demanded 
by an indignant people is by petitions asking for it. The Com- 
monwealth was slandered ! an indignant people rose up and 
you had to investigate! That was the story told }rou this 
morning. Any petition of that sort on your files? If there is 
I have not seen it; I have never known of it. The indignant 
people have kept their indignation with a great deal of patience, 
so far as anything on your record is concerned. For some rea- 
sons, I must suppose good ones, the investigation was put off 
until,— nothing was done about it until the twenty-sixth or 
seventh of March, almost three months after what the counsel 
has been pleased to term the “ charges ” were made. 
The first thing I heard of the investigation was when a por- 
tion of your committee called upon me and asked me if I would 
appear before the legislature, or legislative committee, and put 
in such evidence as I had ; and that appears upon your records, 
I suppose. I replied that I didn’t know an}T precedent for it, I 
doubted whether I ought to, but I would examine the precedents 
and look the thing over and send you a written communication 
felling you my determination; and, on the next morning, I sent 
the committee a written communication, in which I said : “ I 
have come to the conclusion, in answer to your invitation, to go 
before you and put in such evidence as I have in the investiga- 
tion, to take part in it, and I wish you would send me twenty 
subpoenas to subpoena witnesses.” I then saw, Mr. Chairman, 
a larger delegation of your committee, and they came to me and 
said, “Well, you misunderstood us, Governor; we didn’t in- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LI 
vite you to come.” “Well,” said I, somewhat irreverently, 
“ what in the devil were you here for the other day?”—because 
I am a little quick, sometimes. “ If you didn’t want me, what 
did you come to me for? If you did want me, I understood 
you so, but don’t let us have any mistake about it,” — and I had 
a shorthand reporter to take down all this, so that there might 
be no mistake, and happened to have one of the higher officers 
of the government present who heard all of it, — I said, “ Well, 
now, let us have no mistake now. If you want me, say so, and 
I will come; and if you don’t want me, say so, and I won’t 
come. But I give you fair notice that you may investigate with- 
out me, but I shall rake after the cart, and it is the business of 
the man who rakes after the cart to gather up the loose straws.” 
And the committee said they wanted me to come, and I came ; 
and here I am at the end of months. So that I don’t want any 
man to say this was a volunteer on my part, nor do I want any 
man to say that I sought any investigation. I neither sought it 
nor shunned it. I did what I believed to be my duty under my 
responsibility to my God, my conscience, and the people of the 
Commonwealth. 
Now, then, we got together and began to investigate. And 
we have investigated, as well as we could, laboring under diffi- 
culties, for many months. Will you allow me to sajq here, Mr. 
Chairman, that it is not my fault that the investigation didn’t 
begin sooner. If you had begun as soon as you were ap- 
pointed, wh}r, then we should have had cooler weather to finish 
this hearing in than we have now, even if we were up at the top 
of the little hillocks at Haverhill, where cool air blows. There 
is one thing I have a right to say to the committee and say for 
them. They have worked as a committee with unexampled dili- 
gence. That, I bear my full to. Now and then a 
man absent on the one side and on the other, but always a quo- 
rum here within some ten minutes of the time, and working all 
the time they could devote to it, and I could devote to it. 
Whatever may be the result of this investigation, so much I 
have a right to say ; I ought to say. 
Now, then, what has been the administration, — having got 
through with all the arguments that were addressed to you for 
half an hour to my prejudice by the counsel, — let us come 
directly to the work in hand. The administration of this insti- 
tution for a quarter of a century has been wrong in principle, 
because this institution was put in charge of one family during LII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
this whole time ; sometimes having officers to the number of 
seven, —grandfather, mother, children and grandchildren,—and 
as fast as one got old enough to chip the shell, it came into this 
administration. Now, nothing, nothing in the world can be 
right under such a principle of administration. The family 
becomes a clique within itself; and, I am not now speaking of 
the Marshes; but I am speaking of human nature ; the family 
becomes a clique within itself; they protect each other, and they 
turn out everybody that makes any complaint against what is 
done. That is of necessity7, however good they may be. That 
principle of administration is all wrong. 
There is another thing wrong about it. All the trustees, so 
far as we know of them, except the two estimable ladies whom 
Ave neither have heard anything of nor seen anything of in this 
investigation, who have lately been put on, were interested in 
the results of this administration. Spalding of Tewksbury, 
one of the trustees, was, way back in last March, accused here 
byT his clergyman of having said that he would not give the time 
to this institution except that he made money enough out of it 
in supplying contracts to make up for the time. Now, Spald- 
ing is within twenty-six miles of here, in full health and strength. 
Why should not we have looked upon his face. Wouldn’t some- 
body have desired to have looked upon that man’s face ? I 
wasn’t going to call such a rascal as that; not I. If he is not 
the rascal his clergyman said he was, why hasn’t he been here 
to defend himself? 
Again: Mr. Nourse, one other of the trustees, was the pur- 
chasing agent of the Lowell Railroad, and he was the man to 
make all the purchases of the coal, as committeeman. And all 
that coal, although there was a competing road, all went over 
the Lowell road. Perhaps his place as purchasing agent de- 
pended upon that. He never went near the Boston and Maine 
road all these years, over twenty7 years, to ask for any compet- 
ing rates. 
I want to say to the official reporters that I don’t care for 
their reporting my argument at all; I don’t want it printed at 
the expense of the State. 
The Chairman. We desire to print both the arguments. 
Gov. Butler. Everybody has a right to report it, but not at 
my request. I intend to print it myself. I asked the legisla- 
ture to print copies of myr address and they7 have refused ; and 
I don’t care to be under any obligations to them hereafter. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LIII 
The Chairman. We will pay the expense of this. 
Gov. Butler. I have got own reporters, — not that I 
mean the slightest imputation upon the gentlemen reporters at 
all. 
Now, then, it is a little matter, but straws will show which 
way the wind blows, —Mr. Nourse for sixteen years, upon his 
oath, has been furnished with chickens. A very small matter, 
and if he had come here before this committee and said, “ Yes, 
every fall Mr. Marsh sent me around a few chickens for Thanks- 
givings a matter of courtesy, and I eat them and thought I was 
doing all right,” why, nobody would have had a right to say one 
word. I should not; nothing could be said to that. That was 
the minimus, one of the small matters the law don’t look after. 
But, before this investigation took place, after you were ap- 
pointed, on the seventh of March, he went to Charles Marsh 
and paid for those chickens that he had had for sixteen years. 
He was not under any legal obligation to do it, because they 
were outlawed if he had ever been under any. But it shew 
where the conscience was ; he felt he was guilty ; that there was 
something wrong about it. He had had them and never paid 
for them and never intended to pay for them, and never would 
have paid for them,—there isn’t a man of you that don’t know 
that, — if it hadn’t been for the appointment of the committee. 
Charles Marsh took a leaf out of Mr. Nourse’s book. He had 
been feeding his chickens, always, out of the Commonwealth’s 
meal, ever since he had any, and selling the eggs to the Com- 
monwealth at a high price, and after this investigation com- 
menced he went and paid for that. That had been going on 
for years. 
The other trustee, Mr. Elliot, was interested in the milk con- 
tracts and wouldn’t let the milk go to the lowest bidder; and 
he don’t appear here, either, although he is alive and well, or 
was the last I heard of him. 
Now, this administration is wrong in principle. Mr. Elliot 
has been over that institution every year, every month in every 
year, for twenty He knows more about it than anjrbody 
else; he had investigated these cases. Why isn’t he here ? 
There has been a continual suppression of evidence on the 
other side. We were told with the most bellowing enunciation, 
that they were going to turn this institution inside out. Yes ; 
but they have only showed us the outside. Now, this has been 
the course of administration, — nepotism to the last degree. LIV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Now, a moment, before we go to Thomas J. Marsh, to whom 
certain classes of newspapers have been singing paeans of glory. 
Mr. Thomas J. Marsh was a shoemaker down in Exeter at the 
time I was there at school in 1827. My acquaintance with him 
is an old one. He came from there to Lynn, a very respectable 
shoemaker, I guess, I don’t know anything to the contrary, and 
he ought to have stuck to that business. He came to Lynn. 
The next we hear of him he is a clerk in a grocery store. He 
quit that. Then, carrying on a little business by himself; 
he quit that. Then he got an appointment to the post-office ; 
he quit that. Then he got a place in the custom house ; he quit 
that. I am speaking by the record. He then got elected, in 
that spasm of virtue called the Knownothing party, treasurer of 
the Commonwealth. What a man to pick out for the treasurer 
of this Commonwealth ! Now, heretofore, all our treasurers, to 
the honor of the Commonwealth be it said, have held their 
offices during the full five years that the Constitution will per- 
mit, except there has been a change of party, but, for some 
reason, Mr. Marsh was too great a load for the Knownothing 
party, even, and they carried some awful ones, and he was 
dropped at the end of the first year. He then undertook a little 
shoe business down here at the West End, and he failed in that. 
He then went to Waltham and didn’t have any business; but 
he was lucky enough to be a townsman of Major General Banks, 
who had been a Knownothing with him, and he appointed him to 
this institution in place of Mr. Meserve. Up to that time, so 
far as the record is concerned, no troubles were heard of at the 
institution; and, for the first two or three years, no troubles 
were heard of at this institution ; it was well conducted by Mr. 
Marsh; his boys hadn’t grown up, then ; they were in college, 
some of them ; economically conducted. They had as many in- 
mates in 1862 as they have now,—and one or two more, a few 
more, as your record will show,—a little over 900. And that in- 
stitution was conducted that year, so far as its running ex- 
penses, everything was concerned, for 847,000, — with just the 
number of inmates they have now, with one or two more ; $7,000 
for salaries, and $41,000 or $42,000 only for food. Now you 
have appropriated ninety-odd thousand dollars; $20,000 for 
salaries, — $93,000, — $20,000 for salaries and $73,000 for ex- 
penses. And the counsel tells you, which is not in the record 
and I am not responsible for it, — but he tells you that you are 
considerably over forty-odd thousand the first of June, and there 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LV 
are a large number of outstanding bills amounting to thousands 
yet; so, there is going to be a deficiency, if he is right. 
Now, let us follow Mr. Marsh a little further. Mr. Marsh 
was a poor man ; not a word to be said against him on that ac- 
count. He was unfortunately situated. He had an elderly 
father to maintain, and a mother, and he maintained them well, 
and for that he has my tribute. He had two married daughters, 
and they were both unfortunate in their husbands, and he had them 
substantially* to maintain. He had two or three sons — four sons 
— and he had them to maintain. And, then, these daughters, 
being pretty well along in years, began to have children of their 
own; had children of their own. Now, then, he had 81,200 a 
year, 81,500 a y*ear, and 81,800 a year. He brought all these 
men, — all his own sons, with one exception, — all of them up to 
school in Exeter, and three of them, as I remember it, at Har- 
vard. Exeter is one of the most expensive schools, nowadays, 
in New England, and Harvard’s reputation I need not speak of 
in that regard. And he maintained all these people. If you 
will tell me how a man can do that on 81,800 a year, at the out- 
side, I will beg Mr. Marsh’s pardon ; and if 3*011 can’t tell me, 
3*011 must beg mine. Not only* that, he sent all the girls down 
here ; kept them for two years up at the poorhouse, and sent 
them down here to take music lessons. One went to the 
homoeopathic college, and so on. Well, now, that can’t be 
done on his salary. He hasn’t taken a dollar from the institu- 
tion, they* say*. Where did he get it. Judge ye. 
Now, then, the first thing I have to deal with, is the erasures, 
the peculations of officers. The trustees I have spoken of; 
Charles Marsh I have spoken of. As long ago as 1876, there 
was a claim gravely put forward b)* the board of state charities, — 
not b3* Mr. Sanborn ; Mr. Sanborn was only the man w*ho wrote 
the letter, — the board of state charities, officially* put forward, 
that Mrs. Marsh was stealing the inmates’ clothing ; and that 
has been followed from that day* to this. That complaint was 
never investigated. All that was done, the trustees asked the 
old gentlemen if she was, and he said she was not. They never 
even asked Mrs. Marsh. They never asked Mrs. Marsh; 
and nobody here, under that very grave accusation, asks Mrs. 
Marsh. They have put in that Mrs. Leonard thinks she has got 
all her faculties, and is a good housekeeper. Well, if she is a 
good housekeeper, she would make a good witness, if she can 
stretch her conscience far enough to deny* these charges. This LVI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
is what they call turning this institution inside out. Seven 
years that charge has been against that old lady — that old 
woman — and no man has investigated it. And her husband 
and her children, with the odor of Harvard about them, never 
has called for an investigation. Isn’t that wonderful. 
Now, then, in the first place, Mr. Barker came and gave some 
testimony here ; and he has been very severely treated. He 
said he used to see those boxes, filled and unfilled, containing 
blankets and things that belonged to the institution, and he saw 
them one night taken away. And he told you how he saw them 
taken awa}\ Well, but they sajr Mr. Barker isn’t a reliable 
man. He told his wife at the time about it, and she confirms 
his story. 
The Chairman. Dudley, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
The Chairman. Dudley. 
Gov. Butler. Dudley and Barker both swore to it; lam 
taking Barker first and I am going to take Dudley next, because 
I have an excellent witness for Dudley, a beautiful witness for 
Dudley, although he is called “ Ananias Dudley ” here, 3-011 
know. I am sony brother isn’t well up in his Scripture. 
Ananias was not struck by the Lord for telling what was not 
true, but for keeping back the truth, I want him to remember. 
Indeed, I could recommend two things, a little more Scripture 
and a little more law, to brother. 
Now, Mr. Barker said he saw it, and he told his wife. Now, 
who is Mr Barker? Mr. Barker went away from there with a 
strong recommendation in his pocket from them, on his own ac- 
count, and went down to Salem, and has been keeper of the 
Salem almshouse ever since, re-elected evei’3? 3Tear, 
and is there now. Don’t you suppose the overseers of the poor, 
and the men there, know him,—know who he is? Has there 
been an3' one brought here against him? Has Sargent found 
any runt from Harvard Medical School to swear against his 
character for truth and veracity? None. 
Now, let us take Mr. Dudle3’. Who is Mr. Dudle3T ? Mr. 
Dudlc3’ and his wife went from there to the insane hospital at 
Danvers upon the recommendation of the Marshes, again, —or 
the doctor, I don’t care which ; a recommendation from Tewks- 
bury,—and there he and his wife have remained ever since, and 
remain now ; and if any attack had been made on Mr. and Mrs. 
Dudley b3' anybody but the rough side of a lawyer’s tongue, I 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LVII 
would have brought every man and woman in the institution to 
swear what sort of people they are. But, fortunately, my 
brother has given me a good witness. He cited in Mrs. Leon- 
ard, and Mrs. Leonard says, “ I have known Mr. and Mrs. 
Dudley for ten ymars. I respect them, and would believe their 
statements.” This is this acute, penetrating woman we have 
heard of, you know, who knows all about this, — the ablest per- 
son in the board of state charities. 
Mr. Brown. What is the date of that communication ? 
Gov. Butler. April 19th, sir ; you will find it in the Boston 
Advertiser ; which you believe in, but I don’t. 
Now, here are these respectable people, against whom nothing 
could be said, except that they were once at Tewksbury, in any 
waj’ or form, swearing to some facts that I shall show you. 
They both swear—Barker and Dudley — that they saw trunk 
after trunk going away ; box after box going away to Exeter, 
where the Atwoods live, tilled, in some cases, with matters that 
belonged to the institution. This is Charles H. Dudley7, when 
he was night watchman ; in making his rounds, he saw7 what he 
testifies to, as follows :— 
“ I saw a woman opening trunks, taking out articles of clothing,— 
female apparel,—laying them down in different piles, until I saw 
three or four trunks opened.” 
That was down stairs, where the inmates’ trunks were stored. 
“ Piles were laid down in one place and piles in another; then 
piles packed into the trunk and the other piles left outside. I went 
back with the idea to satisfy myself what was going on. I saw that 
woman come out, hobble up the steps, and go into the centre building 
I supposed at the time it was all right. 
Q. Who was it ? A. That was Capt. Marsh’s wife. 
Q. The matron ? A. The matron. 
Gov. Butler. Who is now a little over eighty ? 
The Witness. I had supposed that that was all right. I had no 
particular suspicion until a few days after that, or a short time after 
that, when I was informed by the housekeeper, who was then a Mrs. 
Pope, that she had seen the same. I asked her what she supposed 
was done with that clothing that was removed from those trunks 
‘Why,’ she said,—” 
And he was going on to tell what she said, but he was inter- 
rupted by Mr. Brown. But Mrs. Pope came on then, — she was 
the housekeeper, and she told us [referring to brief] — LVIII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
Mr. Carrigan. No, no ; that is Dudley. 
Gov. Butler. Dudley again, about the contents of the boxes. 
Then he began to look around after these boxes, and he says : 
“ I went and got a screw-driver, — I saw the tops of the boxes 
were put on with screws, quite heavily screwed down, — and took 
the covers, or part of the covers off the boxes, and I found that they 
contained different articles of dry-goods, such as sheeting, bed- 
spreads, blankets, soft wool blankets, curtains, pillows, and pieces of 
silk; also pieces of carpets, either Brussels or imitation of Brussels 
carpets. This was as near as I found out what the contents were, 
and I took out several pieces and satisfied myself what they were. 
Q. Did you examine all three of the boxes or only two ? A. 
There was only two. 
Q. Both boxes ? A. There were only two sent at a time ; I ex- 
amined both of the boxes. I put the covers on and screwed them 
down. I tried to tip one of the boxes over to see the other side, but 
was unable to do so, and left it; it was too heavy.” [Record, page 
69, about the middle of the page.] 
Then he says he saw a wagon backed up to the door and saw 
the boxes rolled into them by two men. Then he says further 
that when he came there and asked Captain Marsh what his duty 
was as night watchman, he was told his duty was not to see too 
much. Well, Captain Marsh was accustomed to give that sort 
of directions, for one of the inspectors swore that when he 
didn’t know what his duty was, being lately appointed, he went 
up to Tewksbury and asked Captain Marsh what his duties were. 
Do you remember what Captain Marsh’s idea of the inspec- 
tor’s duty was, — “to come here once a month and get a good 
dinner and go away?” And Captain Marsh never has contra- 
dicted that, either, and he has been upon the stand. [Referring 
to brief.] “ He watched the wagon and found it went to Fay 
station ; Fay station was the station where it would go to go to 
Exeter. One of the Davis boys came there frequently and 
stayed a long time ; alwaj’s carried a trunk home with him and 
failed to bring one when he came ; it used to be as large a one 
as could get; witness has seen Mrs. Marsh at night-time 
in the trunk-room taking away bundles of wearing apparel.” I 
agree, as matron, she has a right to be everywhere that she 
liked, but it wasn’t a good time for an old lady, verging on 80, 
to be downstairs in the night-time, when everybody was asleep, 
looking into the inmates’ trunks. If you think so, you will so 
report, that that was a portion of her duties. [Referring to 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LIX 
brief.] “Mrs. Pope, the housekeeper, told deponent she had 
seen the same thing; saw the trunks of the inmates had been 
opened, and silk dresses and silk shawls taken out, of inmates, 
insane patients, and told the same to my wife at the time.” And 
the more he was cross-examined the more he sustained the 
evidence. 
Now, I will take Mrs. Pope. Mrs. Jennie E. Pope. She 
was the housekeeper. Not a word has been said against her by 
anybody but Mr. Brown, and when one man calls everybody 
else a liar, he is like the man in a country town who said every 
man in the town seemed to him to stagger. [Referring to 
brief.] Did sewing for Mrs. Marsh ; made over dresses that 
Mrs. Marsh has taken from the baggage-room where inmates’ 
trunks were stored ; dresses were silk; saw one of the Davis 
girls, one of the grandchildren, wearing one of the dresses ; saw 
Mrs. Marsh frequently overhauling trunks of patients; saw 
paupers making rugs from the old di'esses of inmates ; rugs 
were not used in the almshouse; frequently saw large boxes 
and bundles of clothing tied up with cord, marked Exeter, N. H. 
Frank Barker reported that inmates in the insane department 
were not properly clothed ; hadn’t sufficient clothing on beds. 
Now, then, next we will see what was done with that which 
went to Exeter. Catherine Moran, dealer in second-hand 
women’s clothing, bought of Mrs. Marsh and family a large 
quantity of dresses, underclothing, and so forth, and a poor 
musician’s fiddle; also bought of the Atwoods, in Exeter, 
dresses, shawls, cloaks, underclothing, stockings; bought 
clothing of the Atwoods and Davises a dozen times; were good 
dresses. Mrs. Mary E. Walker, another one, testifies, substan- 
tially, that she had bought large quantities of second-hand 
dresses and underclothing and the like, of the Marshes, 
Atwoods and Davises and Mrs. Putney; and the}r all came 
down there,—Mrs. Putney was Mrs. Dr. Putney, one of the 
grandchildren, after she got married, — and they all had a 
rendezvous down there at Reading, and this woman says she 
bought all the clothing she could carry away. 
And now comes Fannie Dudley : 
Q. Now, did you ever see anything about taking clothes away 
from the trunks or the trunk-room ? 
A. When we were on the night-watch we noticed that there was a 
large room filled with trunks and clothing on hooks; when we went LX 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
away there were but very few trunks there and very little clothing; 
I don’t know what became of it. 
Q. Did you ever see anybody cai'rying it away ? 
A. I saw old lady Marsh one time coming up out of the trunk- 
room with an armful of clothing. 
Q. What was it ? 
A. I did not examine it. It looked like dresses and shawls. 
Q. Do you know anything about taking boxes to the railway 
station ? 
A. No, sir; I do not; I heard of it, but I did not see it. 
That was further confirmed Mrs. Pope. And, now comes 
another woman, Miss Mina Davis, not one of the Marsh 
Davises, but a night nurse at the almshouse in 1878 and 1879. 
She testified that complaint, on the part of the inmates, about 
loss of clothing, was frequent and common. The complaints 
were such as this : “ Mrs. Davis, look at this dress ! I put a 
nice dress into that baggage-room. Now, look at this.*’ And 
the same complaints were made in regard to shawls, hats and 
other articles of apparel. (Record, p. 272.) 
William Driscoll, who was nine years at Tewksbury, testified 
that he saw Hugh McDermott and other inmates peddling 
stockings, shoes, pants and underclothing which were said to 
have been furnished them by French Joe, who was to divide 
profits. This was in 1881. (Record, p. 253.) 
Agnes Calder testified that there was a general complaint of 
inmates about the loss of dresses and other clothing from their 
trunks, and that frequently the clothing of the inmates admitted 
to the. institution wrould be gone. (Record, p. 283.) 
Now, what are you going to do with this testimony? A word 
about Miss Calder right here. She gave as her reference yes- 
terday that she had been for seventeen years a member of the 
Tremont Temple Church, and an attendant upon its Sabbath 
school; and anybody might go there and inquire concerning her. 
She gave that same reference nearly four months ago, and 
Moses Sargent even could not find out anything against her —• 
and what he can’t nose out is not worth attempting to find out. 
Now, Joseph Palmer, the man who says he checked the bag- 
gage, or had the baggage checked, testified as follows : — 
Q. And when they came they would give you the check and you 
would go and get the baggage ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. This coming and going was always to and from Tewksbury 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXI 
substantially? A. Yes, sir. I believe I didn’t check any baggage 
anywhere else. 
Now, he testifies, to make a long story short, that this hap- 
pened every week. They went away from Exeter empty and 
they came back with heavy trunks. Now, they brought two 
men to swear here, — not here, but they got two depositions 
taken, and both were men he had quarrelled with, — that they 
wouldn’t believe him under oath. I didn’t think it was of con- 
sequence enough to bother the committee with, especially as the 
legislature were kind enough to limit my time so that I couldn’t 
get in all my witnesses in rebuttal within about fifteen, nor I 
couldn’t even read my depositions. 
Now, what are you going to do with this? Ai’e these men to 
be, all these witnesses to be whistled down the wind when they 
won’t bring a single Marsh here to say it was not so ? Add to 
this, and I cannot go much further with this thing, add to 
this the fact that after Mrs. Putney moved down to Reading, 
they sent her a baby cradle, which was put on to the waybill as 
400 pounds. They must have expected she had a very large 
baby. But something too much of this. I only want to show 
you that yau can’t get awajT from this testimony b}' sliding over 
it. 
But we come to something much more important, very much 
more important. Now, I come to the manner of keeping 
accounts. And the books that were produced here were the 
most beautiful looking books I ever saw in my life. They 
were all as clean as that [holding up a book] ; the books that 
have been used for years for day-books and journals and all that, 
and there would not be a blot, nor a blotch, nor an erasure, 
and there isn’t one to be found on them anywhere. But, when 
3rou come to the inmates’ cash-book, where the inmates’ 
cash was kept, Charles Marsh swears his method of keeping 
that is by erasure ; that is, that when a man comes in he puts 
down so much money to his credit; when the man gets any 
more sent him by friends, he scratches th&t out and adds the 
two sums together, and puts it down again over the erasure, 
and when, if he lets him have an}T money while he is in there, 
\ hen he comes to settle the account, he deducts that money, 
scratches out the other two sums over each other, and puts it in 
over an erasure at last. Now, gentlemen, I want to be inter- 
rupted by everybody, if I have misstated this one hair. That LXII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
was his method of keeping them; occasionally he did it the 
other way, — he first put down on the one side and then put the 
sums the other way. Well, I have heard of keeping books by 
double entry, but never by erasing, because that is by triple 
entry. 
Now, do you wonder that I could not get at any books but 
those which were fixed up so that my expert testified he never 
saw so clean a set of books, nor did anybody else ever see so 
clean a set of books. Now, don’t misunderstand me. If they 
had wanted to fix up their books in just this way, that little 
delay of the committee from the seventh of February to the last 
of March would have given them just the time to do it. Now, 
I don’t mean to say, — don’t misunderstand me, I don’t think 
the committee knew a word about it, — but they got intimation, 
and so they began to pay in the old accounts, and Nourse paid 
up, and Charley Marsh paid up, and Tom paid up, and the old 
man got the pig money ready that he had kept back, while you 
were waiting. You were waiting for good reasons, and they 
were occupying the time very industriously. 
Now, then, here is the inmates’ cash-book, which we never got 
until after four times asking, covered all over with erasures. That 
book, you see [holding it up], isn’t so clean as the other. He 
hadn’t got this ready ; he didn’t mean we should know anything 
about it. He swore he had given us all the books, once, twice, 
thrice. I kept after it. Said I, “ Where is that inmates’ cash- 
book?” He said, “Oh, that is a little memorandum book.” 
Said I, “ Little or big, bring it, sir.” And, at last, I got it, 
and he had no time to fix it; and that appears, now, like a book 
that has been used. Compare, in the same institution. [Hold- 
ing up both books.] This one was the book the Common- 
wealth’s account was kept in, and this was the book that we got 
at last. 
Now, let me give you the history of m}T call for books, because 
I have got a word to say about that. I called on Charles B. 
Marsh and he said he had furnished all the books, cleaned out 
Iris safe this morning of everything. (Page 210 of the record.) 
Mr. Brown says, “ Now, upon the third call,” for books, “ we 
have produced everything that we have at the institution.” 
(Page 211.) There are over two thousand pages of this testi- 
mony ; this is early. 
The Chairman. Three thousand. 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXIII 
Gov. Butler. Three thousand; I always understate my 
case. 
The Chairman. I see you do. 
Gov. Butler. Charles B. Marsh says he has delivered at the 
governor’s office all books kept there, at the institution. “I 
don’t know that I could tell from my ledger. But I have a book 
which I will send you if you want it” (that is page 821). 
After he had three times sworn, and that is the time I got this 
little one, — “If you want it, where I have taken off the ex- 
penditures for each month. It is no part of the books of the 
institution but I have done it for my own convenience.” Charles 
B. Marsh didn’t understand that the governor wanted that book ; 
that is, the little one. “It does not belong to the State, it 
belongs to me.” Wiry, the State’s accounts were kept in it, 
but, then, for all, — I will come to that by and by. Now, he 
says there are some books used by the appraisers, — the ap- 
praisers are State officers, appointed to appraise the property of 
the State, they are not private property, — “didn’t think the 
governor wanted them ; ” when I had called for every scrap of 
paper four times over. Now, then, I made a broad demand for 
every scrap of paper, everything that belonged to that institu- 
tion ; and you ordered it, over and over again, gentlemen of the 
committee, did you not? And, yet, in the last few days of this 
investigation, the books containing the account of the cut-up 
dead, the most important of all, — for, what is money, what is 
money in this matter? Steal, if you please, Marshes, the in- 
mates’ cash and keep no account, or a wretched account of it, 
if you please ; but, in Heaven’s name, don’t steal their bodies and 
keep no account. And we now know there were these account- 
books. Nourse swears that they were there, Tom J. Marsh 
swears he has got them, and then walks up to this table and 
looks you in the face and says, “ I won’t give you those books.” 
And this institution you are to sustain. I could not have 
believed it till this morning. But, after I heard of a vote 
in the legislature which I should not have dared to speak 
about if brother Brown had not lugged it in this 
morning, — after I heard of a vote in the legislature 
where fifty-six grown men, claiming to be fit to represent con- 
stituencies, absolutely voted that there was no power in the 
legislature of Massachusetts to get the books in which the ac- 
counts of the State of Massachusetts are kept unless they have 
paid a dollar and a half witness-fee, and subpoenaed the wit- LXIV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
ness ! And, here, where the legislature has ordered an investi- 
gation into this institution, one of the under officers quietly tells 
you, “ Go where 3Tou please, go were you will go to, you shan’t 
have the books.” And books showing what has been done with 
the Commonwealth’s dead for twenty-five years, if they are 
properly kept, and that is what I want to see. I dare you to 
whitewash that transaction. You will reckon with the people 
for that, if it is done, and the man that puts his name to it 
might as -well sign his own death-warrant for anything that the 
people of Massachusetts will give him, hereafter, in my judg- 
ment. Think of it! Think of it, gentlemen, for a moment! 
A solemn investigation has been ordered ; }Tou have ordered, 
your committee have ordered eA’eiy book in an institution 
to be given up. The officers of the institution are here be- 
fore you, defending; they have employed counsel, tlie}r are here 
consulting with counsel, they are right here in the room with 
the book in their pocket. The book is the account of the dead, 
the account of those who have been sold for money that they 
may be cut up, after the service of God over their remains has 
been said by the holy priest; and the man comes forward and 
says, “I won’t give it up; I won’t give it up.” You, feeling 
the dignity of the Commonwealth as committed to your charge, 
a majority of you, feeling that the honor of the Commonwealth 
was in your hands, that }tou should not be played with, you or- 
dered it to be given up ; and, when the man stepped forward 
then and refused it, after waiting three days until the legislature 
could be sufficiently lobbied, a report was made on that trans- 
action. And we got a judgment which the men that did it will 
regret as long as they live. 
On what ground was it put? On the ground that he hadn’t 
been subpoenaed. What do 3011 want to subpoena a man for 
when he is here? A subpoena is to bring a man ; it is a convey- 
ance. What do 3Tou want to send a carriage to a man for when 
he is here in the room? Pooh ! I appeal to 3rou, sir ; suppose 
a man is in court, and he is called upon to give testimoiy; have 
3;ou got to get a subpoena before he can be put upon the stand? 
Never; never. Suppose a man is before a court, with a book 
that is wanted in evidence in his pocket; can’t the court com- 
mit him for contempt, Avithout sending out a subpoena to bring 
him in when he is there already? Out upon such nonsense ! 
There was a reason and a constitutional reason why Tom 
Marsh should not give up these books. If he said the3’ would 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXV 
criminate himself, show him guilty of crime, then he can’t be 
compelled, I agree. But he must put up that plea, must put it 
on that ground, and that ground only. He didn’t do it at all. 
Somebody did it for him. Some one of the committee were 
kind enough to supply him, in a report, with what he didn’t 
supply himself; so that, therefore, I take it that the committee 
knew exactly the reason, although Tom Marsh would not con- 
fess it, and I assume it would criminate him. But that was not 
the ground it was put on. 
Now, let us see where we are. There has been a good deal 
said, — I now refer to the public history, — about what the “old 
man” said he could do, if he could only see the books. The 
“old man” hasn’t promised anything, if he could not see the 
books. I am absolved from all promises. 
Now, further, let us go to this inmates’ account-book. And 
all these books come under the order of the committee to an 
officer of the State, who is bound to come here upon the order 
of the committee, without any summons. An officer of the 
State, here by his counsel; and he is here enough for his counsel 
to argue his case, but he is not here enough for you to enforce 
the process after the argument is against him. He is absent 
then. He is here enough, he is under jurisdiction enough to 
be heard, for counsel to argue his case; and then, somebody 
said ; “ Oh, that is all right,” and then, immediately afterwards, 
having put himself in that condition of refusing to produce the 
books, he comes in here, and offers himself as a witness, and 
you swear him. Why didn’t you inquire whether he had been 
subpoenaed, or not? How could you swear a witness that was 
not subpoenaed, if this other doctrine was correct ? There never 
was such nonsense ever emitted by mortal man. 
Well, so we haven’t got the books. We have only got forged 
books, and what they could not forge they suppress. Now, let 
us come to this, for I must be quick about it; let us come to 
this inmates’ cash-book, which was here a moment ago. Now, 
this inmates’ cash-book ; I want to call your attention to what 
this cash-book is. This is the only cash-book for 3,000 men 
and women who come in here, and for their cash that they have 
in their pockets which is taken away from them. And they had 
no more business to take it away from them than they had to 
rob their dead bodies after they were dead. I don’t know of 
any law by which, because a party is in the almshouse, you can 
pick his pockets. If anybody does I wish they would point me LXVI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
out the statute. But the moment they went in, all the mone}' 
and jewelry, watches and everything else was taken from them. 
Why should not a poor man in the almshouse, where the days 
and minutes are lagging, why shouldn’t he have the privilege of 
looking at his watch and seeing how the time was going? It is 
his watch. Why was it taken ? In order to be stolen. And 
this book contained the whole account. Now, I am not going 
through this book, because I haven’t time; but I can tell you 
what I did do, which you know. I shew as many erasures as 
I could, and there was only 54 of them ; and I was exceedingly 
puzzled why there weren’t more, and it is about the only thing 
that has kept me awake nights during this investigation, why T 
could not find out why there were not more erasures. I knew 
there were more erasures ; but I peered at it with microscope and 
glass, and they were not there. Now, said I, I know they are 
there ; and I sent for a chemist, and I asked him, — because I 
had had a little knowledge of chemistry, — I said, Can’t 
they take out by a chemical reagent, oxalic acid, or tartartic 
acid ; can’t they take out the ink without showing anything on 
the paper? Yes, sir. And can’t they restore it if they haven’t- 
rubbed it any ; can’t you restore it with another reagent, gallic 
acid? Yes, sir. Said I, Here are three places on this book, 
won’t you try your hand at them? I hadn’t any further time. 
I would have gone-all through them, if I had had time enough; 
but I put him at three cases, and the gallic acid brought out the 
figures in every case. One was where $5 stood credited to an 
absconded inmate to be paid over to the Commonwealth, and 
the one had been taken out by acid, and putting it on it was 
restored. Another was where it had been partly scratched and 
partly taken out by acid, and we found a different figure brought 
out by the acid underneath the present figure. And the other 
case was where we shew, probably,—I don’t want to go an}’ fur- 
ther than that,—probably, b\T the testimony, that a woman took 
up $156 there, and, what was very remarkable, that boy testi- 
fied to six, you remember. The first page on this book, Ellen 
Allen ; and when she died there and her effects were to be 
turned over to the State, all that appeared was that there was 
one dollar to her credit; and the acid brought out a six. It 
could not go any further because there was scratching besides. 
Her young nephew said that she started with $156. There 
never was such a confirmation of testimony since this world 
began. And she had clothes with her ; two gold rings, a pair of 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXVII 
gold ear-rings, a gold pin, a pair of gold studs, a black cashmere 
shawl, two nice dresses, and, also, underclothes ; and when her 
brother came up, after she was dead, came up there after her 
things, the}* had gone, weren’t there, no record of them any- 
where, no record of any money,—over $150, and we find figures 
scratched out, figures taken out by acid in her account, which 
is a mode, the Tewksbury mode of keeping books by double 
entry. You saw it with your own eyes, gentlemen ; I had the 
book pointed out to you. The one is here to be seen ; it won’t 
last a great while, but it can be fetched up again. 
Now, I don’t care what the rest of them are. lie says three 
out of so many hundred. If he had produced this book at the 
beginning and I had had wit enough to think how the thing was 
done, I would have had them all tried by acid ; but he kept it, 
kept it back. Because, gentlemen, if the}’ will steal chickens, 
if they will steal old dresses, if they will steal the poor inmates’ 
money, what will they do with the money of the Commonwealth, 
which everybody, almost, thinks they have a right to take a lick 
at? And they have disbursed over two millions here. 
And these are the accounts. The accounts as kept are 
exactly like the accounts down in the auditor’s office ; as, of 
course, they would be, because they are copied into the book 
before the account is sent down, and a duplicate is sent down 
there. Now, then, here we have it again. You will find year 
by year about $500 worth of tobacco. They swore they sold, 
French Joe swore he sold no tobacco to the inmates and was not 
allowed to. What did they have the tobacco therefor? Old 
Mr. Marsh swears that his farmer, Mr. Poor, told him he had 
been in the habit of selling calves and taking the money to buy 
tobacco for the men and hadn’t made any account of it. But, 
still, that tobacco has been there, and while Charles Marsh 
claims that he has given large sums in the aggregate to these 
poor people out of their money to buy tobacco with, then it was 
bought of the State, and there isn’t a dollar's worth of tobacco 
credited to the State, not one, on the books ; not one. I know 
whereof I affirm, and so do you. 
But this is by far the least important of the matters. There 
is another matter of keeping accounts. They have been going 
on there for a quarter of a century and they have never kept a 
delivery account of any article; they never have kept any ac- 
count of the coming in of the article, and when they pass it out 
in bulk, more or less to the cooks and to everybody else, cloth- LXVIII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
ing and everything else, there is no account kept of it; and the 
man they have had in charge for years is French Joe, — a 
drunkard and a libertine, and a liar, as 3*011 know, who used to 
come down here every now and then and take one of the inmates, 
send her before him or bring her with him and spend a fortnight 
or more in some bad house at a time, and then he would go 
back, and then she would come back, and he would go on deal- 
ing out the inmates’ clothing and supplies just as if nothing 
had happened, and, then, no account of it kept? Am I right? 
But, I come now to a matter of much more importance, and 
that is cruel and abusive treatment of the living. 
This is a home for the aged. Now Mrs. Dudley comes in. She 
was there. I will deal with the infants first. Let me say the in- 
fants died 71 out of 72. 71 out of 72! Why did they die? 
Mrs. Dudley will tell us. She found the nurse sleeping, fires 
out in the foundling department, and she found a half-pint bot- 
tle of morphia that the night nurse said she gave to the found- 
lings to quiet them. (Record, page 216.) “ I often found 
the infant’s bottles sour, and reported this to Capt. Marsh.” 
(Record, page 217.) “An insane woman at one time was 
helping take charge of the infants. Once saw an infant with a 
pillow over its head. It looked as though it had been suffocated. 
The insane woman said she did it and swore about it. Mrs. 
Burbank said she reported it to Capt. Marsh. The child was 
dead when I found it, but the nurse remained.” Simple mur- 
der, gentlemen ; what they hang people for in proper civilized 
communities. Charles M. Dudley said to the nurse one night: 
“ Your babies are getting along nicely.” She said she had 
found a way to keep them quiet. She took a bottle and shook 
it and said : “ That’s the stuff; a mixture of morphia.” There 
were seventy-three infants that I kept the run of; only one 
survived at the end of the year, and that is borne out by the 
returns. Agnes Calder says: “I had charge of the infants, 
fifteen and sixteen at a time when they died, getting some more. 
Perhaps they would all die in a week or two. They could not 
retain the milk on their stomachs. Had charge of babes be- 
fore.” 
Mark Heathcote. I took a foundling up to Tewksbury ; was 
kept waiting in the office forty-five minutes ; saw a woman have 
this baby, and she filled its mouth with soap. Was near, and 
saw this done. And he described how, when the baby cried, 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300 
LXIX 
this woman slapped a mouthful of soap into its mouth. And 
the baby, of course, died. 
Deacon John Carver, — and I cannot go into this case with- 
out a feeling of perfect disgust. Here is an old man, father of 
a family and deacon, — not of a Unitarian church, but of a 
church where they believe they have a devil which punishes 
sins, — of high standing among his neighbors. Somebody, 
knowing his kind disposition, dropped on his doorstep one 
night, enveloped in a rich shawl, a well-dressed child. And 
the old deacon took it in. He tried to get his neighbors to 
adopt it, as his wife had some of her own, and they would not. 
lie could not do it.* And they came to the conclusion to bring 
it up, — he went to the almshouse of their town, and they said 
they could not take it, because it didn’t belong to the town, — 
and they came to the conclusion the}7 would have to carry it up 
to Tewksbury, and they did. They went home, and Mrs. Car- 
ver, who went up with it, left it there, wrapped in an expensive 
shawl. Her heart misgave her, and she and her husband went 
back for it. I give this much, that it may be understood how 
easy it is answered by vulgar insinuations that this child was a 
child of the deacon. Without a word of evidence, the kindness 
and philanthrophy of this Christian couple is paid for by 
the Marshes by instructing their lawyer to insinuate 
to you, in the face of the Commonwealth, that he had been 
guilt}7 of adultery, and had an illegitimate child and 
this was his child, and that is why he went up with the child. 
I never have been, in the course of an experience of forty years 
at the bar, shocked so much as at this. If there had been a 
scintilla of evidence, if anybody had said that old Deacon 
Carver had stayed out nights, except when he was at prayer- 
meeting or anything else upon which to found it; but simply 
because they understood from w7hat the old lady had seen that 
the child would die, they went back for it, and the counsel in- 
sinuates and raised a vulgar laugh from the friends of the 
Marshes — he could not have got it anywhere else against this 
old deacon by insinuation. Now, let Mrs. Carver tell her own 
story. I don’t know that I have not gone over it sufficiently. 
She took it back and brought it back into health, although it 
lost three pounds weight. 
Mr. Carrigan. Six pounds. 
Gov. Butler. Although it lost six pounds weight. What 
does [she say ? She said that she went up to get it; it had LXX 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
been there some days — two, I think ; I may be wrong. When 
she went to get it it was cold weather and she asked for the 
shawl,— a large, valuable shawl,—which she had brought it in two 
or three days before ; and they had stolen the shawl and she 
could not get it. She could not find any place to buy one to 
wrap up the baby in, and at last the}’ took a shawl in that cold 
weather, off of the shoulders of another child that had just 
come in from Westford and gave it to this woman. Her shawl 
was sold down at Exeter with the rest, and she could not get it. 
Now, there is Mrs. Carver’s stoiy ; she swears to that, and as 
this was not her child there is nothing against her character at 
any rate. Now, then, I brought here a man that keeps exactly 
such an establishment at Lowell. But before I go to that I 
want to say this thing. What is the answer to this? They 
bring a woman up here to swear that all the children she sent 
up there were dying—substantially—from Cliardon Street Home. 
We got hold of the record, and this is what the record shew. 
She swore they were all diseased : 
“There was a footing put in yesterday I am certain. It was 71 
in all; doubtful, two; diseased, one; condition not stated, one; good, 
five; fair, thirty-five; feeble, twenty-seven.” 
And yet they all died. And I say now what I said before, 
that it would be a mercy to these poor to have had somebody 
pinch their heads before they were sent there to die a lingering, 
starving death. 
Now, let us see what can be done within eight miles of there. 
We have an almshouse where we have foundlings and every- 
thing else from Lowell; all kinds of people and exactly the 
same kind of an institution. Let us see what the death-rate 
there is for the last year : 
“ In the nursery I average from forty to forty-five. 
Q. IIow old children does the nursery include? A. All the way 
from a birth to nine or ten years. 
Q. How many children have you in the reform school ? A. I 
think I have twenty-six sentenced, besides about as many more 
pauper children. 
Q. Twenty-six convicts; that is, sentenced there by the courts? 
Sentenced there by the police court? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And about the same number of what? A. About the same 
number of pauper children. They all attend the same school. 
Q. How many children under the age of nine in the nursery did 1883.] 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
LXXI 
you lose last year? A. I don’t think I lost a child last year, if my 
memory serves me right. I have lost one or two this year.” 
Forty of them, — and the distance is but nine miles from 
Lowell to Tewksbury, — and under the State they lose 71 out 
of 72 ; at Lowell they don’t lose but one out of fort}". Well, 
is that because they feed them high at Lowell? No. This man 
says it don’t cost but $1.07 to carry on his establishment as 
against $2.07 ; and he has a school besides, which they have not 
at Tewksbury. And then you are told here that in foundling 
hospitals no children live. Why, then, did they send children 
there from 1854 down to 1878, year by year, almost a quarter 
of a century? Send them there to die ! Why, better let them 
die where they were and save the expense of the officers and 
the nurses and of taking them up ; except that some of the 
active politicians of a given party must live and have a means 
of living. 
Now, then, let us see how they deliver children there. This 
is an excellently managed institution ! And here I take a man 
whom Mr. Brown said to-day disappointed me as a witness. 
Well, he did. Brown was right, there. I had a graduate of 
Harvard. He had. got to tell something against a Massachusetts 
Medical Society man, and 1 didn’t believe that he would ; but 
when I got him on the stand he did, and that disappointed me. 
Here was a woman in labor. She had been in labor and he had 
been watching the labor, and he sent for the resident physician ; 
anti the resident physician — and without examination — applied 
the forceps. He told how it should have been done. 
“ Q. Then that was not done? A. No, sir; the foi-ceps were 
applied. 
Q The forceps were applied ; and how were the forceps applied ? 
A. The head had not entered the pelvis.” 
As though anybody was going to deliver a child in that posi- 
tion. 
Q. I agree ; the head had not entered the pelvis, but— A. The 
forceps were applied to the head. 
Q. Was any considerable degree of force used with the forceps? 
A Yes, sir. 
Q Won’t you describe, now, without my asking questions, Doc- 
tor,— you don’t seem to be more than ordinarily communicative, if 
you will pardon me, — won’t you describe exactly what was done LXXII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
with the forceps, and how the force was applied ? State the state of 
the woman, the position of the woman ! State the position of the 
doctor with his forceps on this child, and state it all. A. The woman 
was lying crosswise of the bed, feet out on a chair, and there were 
two nurses present. They managed, after she was put under ether 
— they managed the ether, and kept the right side of the bed, but 
Lathrop and I were on the left side of the bed. I separated the legs 
while he applied the forceps. The forceps were put on, tied with a 
towel, and traction was commenced. 
Q. That is, the forceps were brought together, wrapped with a 
towel? A Yes, sir. 
Q. So as to get a good hold ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Very good; then what was done? A. Then he made trac- 
tion. 
Q. Made traction ? A. Pulled. 
Q. Pulled; I know. Then he pulled — how did he pull ? A. lie 
pulled gently at first, and then sat down on the floor, and then braced 
up against the bed and the woman. 
Q. No, doctor, wasn’t this it, — Didn’t he put his feet against 
the buttocks of the woman, and sit down, and pull with all his 
might? A. Y'es, sir. 
• Q And his forceps slipped ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where did he go to ? A. Over on to the floor. 
Q Heels over head? A. Yes, sir. I should like to state here 
though, Governor, that, as 1 understand it, this can, even frequently 
does, happen in an ordinary case. I never saw it happen before nor 
since. 
Q. But it always does happen ? A. I understand it can happen. 
Q. It can happen ; oh, yes, it did happen ; that is evidence it can. 
You never happened to see anything of that sort happen before or 
since. Was this traction, as you call it; this pulling, braced against 
the woman with a towel to get good hold of the forceps, —braced 
back — was that a continual traction. A. Yes, sir. 
Q. For how long? A. Fifteen or twenty minutes,— twenty to 
thirty minutes my notes say. 
Q. And then the forceps slipped, and over he went. Now, then, 
isn’t it the rule of practice in obstetrics, sir, that there is to be first a 
pull to lieip along, and then a letting up; a pull, and then a letting 
up, so that nature should have a chance; and then, if the con- 
traction of the muscles don’t do it, another pull, and so on, — isn’t 
that right practice ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. He tumbled over; did he pull any more on the forceps? A. 
No, sir. 
Q. What was done then ? A. He attempted to perform crani- 
otomy. 
Q. Now, I have had a good many malpractice cases in my life 
and I know the meaning of these terms; craniotomy means, does it, 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXXIII 
to break up the skull and to work out the brain, and then collapse 
the skull and try to get the head out thi-ough that way ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you advise that? A. I was there as a student, and, of 
course, had nothing to do with it, excepting to obey orders. 
Q. Did he go for his tools to do that with ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Went down to the dispensary, or off somewhere ? A. Yes, 
sir. 
Q. Did he come back, bringing his tools ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What were these tools? A. There were not any tools proper 
to do it with. 
Q. I know there were not any tools proper to do it with; what 
did he bring? Let us have it, Doctor. A. Well, it was a screw- 
driver and a rat-tail fde that he brought up. 
Q. Sure that it wasn’t a corkscrew ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Did you ever see these used before or since for such a purpose ? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. Which did he put in first ? The rat-tail file ? Had the rat- 
tail file a handle on it ? A. 1 don’t seem to remember, 
Q. Don’t remember ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Which did he put in there first; the rat-tail file or the screw- 
driver? A. Well, I am sure I could not tell you, Governor, it was 
so long ago; at any rate, I know he brought them up and used 
them 
Q. Brought them up and used them? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Now, then, he tried, if I understand it, to punch a hole in that 
child’s skull with that rat-tail file ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. The skull is a little hard; did it slip and go into the woman ? 
A. 1 don’t hardly see how it could have avoided it. 
Q. Nor I, either; I want to know if it didn’t? A. It would be 
impossible to say whether it did or didn’t ; there was considerable 
hemorrhage at the time. 
Q. And whether that was from the holes made by the rat-tail file 
or natural hemorrhage, you don’t know? A. No, sir; the woman 
ruptured ; possibly it might have come from that. She was ruptured 
by the instruments. 
Q. Now, then, did he manage to get along in this manner; with 
the rat-tail file ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Then did he use the screw-driver? A. I believe he used 
both of them. 
Q. Both of them at once ? A. No, sir. 
Q One at a time? A. Yes, sir; I don’t know which he used 
first or last. 
Q. Did he manage to do it with either of them ? A. No, sir.” 
Had they any proper instrument to do that with? No. Had 
they ever had? No. When was this? This was in 1878. 
This institution had been running twenty-eight years, — yes, LXXIV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
tliirty-two years, and they hadn’t an instrument to do the com- 
monest operation in a difficult labor, craniotomy ; although this 
was the place where women were to be sent to lie-in. And the 
next day, upon this young man’s request, the}' bought them. 
The authority was given to purchase them the very next da}’. 
Now, my brother says that the doctor saved the woman’s life. 
Pardon me. Let us put it the other way. He killed the baby? 
Yes. He simply didn’t kill the mother? No. Well, I heard 
of just such a case once. A young physician went to just such 
a case as this, and he told the old physician what he had 
done. “How did you get along, John?” “ Very well, sir.” 
“ Did you save the child?” “No.” “Well, that was bad.” 
“Well,” said he, “not so very bad.” “Did you save the 
mother?” “No.” “Well, that was pretty bad. What did 
you do?” “ Well, 1 saved the old man.” And this is what is 
put before us ; when the doctor swears it was gross malpractice, 
he reported it to Captain Marsh, and he was turned off by the 
trustees at the very next meeting, although he was there with- 
out any salary, and a woman put in that would have a salary. 
Now, let us come to some more testimony about neglect of 
patients. Joseph Beebe, a patient in 1881, saw a patient rubbed 
with unguentum. He remonstrated, saying that the patient 
would die if he should take cold. The attendant replied: 
“ Let him die.” Dr. Lathrop (Record, page 626), Dr. Lathrop 
seldom spoke to patients. A man choked to death at the table 
and no relief was administered. Dr. Kenney ordered a boy 
with the whooping cough to take a sweat. The instructions 
were followed, and the undertaker took the body in half an hour. 
Abbie E. Wheeler was in Tewksbury in 1881 ; saw Mrs. Durn_ 
ing, a nurse, jump on a sick patient with her knees, because the 
patient would not take her medicine. Mrs. McClary, another 
nurse, strangled a patient while crying for food ; the patient 
was in the dead-house the next day. Mrs. Marsh constantly 
neglected to visit the patients. Now, see what Mr. Dudley 
says. He found an inmate confined in a cell. No attention 
was paid to Dudley’s repeated requests for medical assistance. 
The inmate was found dead in the cell (Record, page 78). 
Little children cried from hunger (Record, page 84, top of the 
page). Complaint was made to Capt. Marsh, and he said they 
were brought there to die. Female insane were mostly without 
underclothing, shoes and stockings, nearly naked. A female 
inmate was found naked in a cell where she had been confined a 1883.J 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXXV 
year. She was practically a skeleton, attended by an idiotic 
attendant, who would deposit the patient’s food in the water- 
closet. She was rescued, and has fully recovered. Now, I 
agree they have brought here two of these people to swear 
against it; but I am like Mrs. Leonard, I believe the Dudleys. 
I come now to another, the gravest of all grave offences 
against these inmates — not quite so loud, if you please, gentle- 
men — the gravest of all grave offences, and that is the case of 
Charlotte Anderson, which my brother didn’t dare to tackle 
with. Charlotte Anderson was a young Swedish woman. She 
came over here a girl, and worked to get money enough to 
bring her sister over here who was upon the stand. And 
when she was taken with melancholia, quiet insanity, and 
she was out of her head in her talk, what happened? What 
happened then? The thing that happened was that she was 
sent first to Taunton and then was sent here to Tewksbury. 
After she had been there considerably more than a year the 
poor innocent girl was confined with child. Her sister had 
been visiting her, and she heard nothing about it. But at 
last she went up there, and, to her astonishment, she found her 
with a baby in her arms. She asked her who the father 
of the child was, and she made answer. And there I was 
stopped by the committee from telling what that answer was. 
But what was done? You saw the girl, intelligent and honest 
as the sun. What was done? She took her insane sister with 
the child in her arms, and she went to Capt. Marsh’s office. 
What she said I was not allowed to put in, by a vote of a nomi- 
nal majority of the committee, there not being a full committee 
here. But we can guess what she said and what she would 
want to know. She had taken her sister from the hospital with 
the babe in her arms, went to Capt. Marsh, the superintendent, 
and she said something to him; we can guess what it was quite as 
satisfactorily as she could tell us. We can guess that she asked 
him who the father was. Now, then, here was a very solemn oc- 
casion. I see in the newspapers that Mr. Marsh gave a jocose 
answer. This was a very solemn occasion. Here was a poor 
girl that had found her sister with child in an insane 
hospital under the care of the State. She went to the 
head of that institution with her sister and the child, and some 
question was put to Capt. Marsh. The committee would not 
let it go in evidence. And Capt. Marsh laid his hand on 
Charlotte, the insane girl’s shoulder, and said : “ We know how LXXVI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
to make babies here ; don’t we, Charlotte?” Now, I don’t care 
which way you take it. And then I attempted to put in what 
the girl said, and what the sister said. But, no; that was 
excluded. But I guess we can find out, or we could guess what 
would be said ; if a woman went up and found her sister with 
child; if a bright, intelligent woman went into the insane 
hospital and found her sister with child, where it must have 
been got there. She wants to know, of course, who was the 
man who had done this great wrong to her insane sister, and 
she takes that sister with her babe in her arms up to the super- 
intendent, and says something to him. AVho was the father of 
this child ? What would a right-minded man have said, if he was 
not guilty ? Why, he would have said : “ I don’t know ; I am as 
sorry for this as I can be, and I will hunt the rascal down if I 
have to hunt the world over, who has disgraced the State of 
Massachusetts and my institution in this way.” Or he would have 
said from the first: “ My dear girl, don’t cry ; I am as sorry as 
you can be ; I have been hunting for the fellow, and I will have 
him.” That is what would have been said by any man fit to 
live on earth. The answer was : “ Charlotte, we know how to 
make babies here, don’t we?” And that is all the poor girl 
got. Gentlemen of the committee, Capt. Marsh don’t den}' 
this. 
The Chairman. I understand he did, Governor. He said 
he didn’t remember it. 
Gov. Butler. That was one of the questions that his coun- 
sel argued could not go in, because it was not allowed. He 
: “I have no doubt of the fact that she was gotten with 
child while in this institution.” This is Mr. Marsh. I will go 
over with it in a moment. “ Mr. Marsh, did 3 011 ever say to 
that insane girl after she had her child in her arms in substance 
this : ‘ Charlotte, we know how to make babies here, don’t we ? ’” 
“I am sure I didn’t.” “ I don’t know whether she was buried or 
not.” “ Don’t remember that I knew she had a sister living.” 
There is where the memory comes in. Why that thing would 
have been impressed on his mind ; that thing would have been 
impressed on your mind, or yours, sir, who are a father, or 
yours, who have sister and mother; it would have been more in- 
delibly impressed than even the crucifixion upon poor Eklund’s 
breast, never to be rubbed out even by tanning after death. 
And if there was nothing else on earth, don’t 3’ou believe that girl ? 
Is there a man here that dares to put his hand on his heart, and 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXXVII 
upon his conscience and honor say that he doubts that girl ? What 
was she here to testify for ? She left. She went away sorrowing. 
She told them if anything happened to her sister to let her know 
where she was, and she would come and get her. She was a 
poor girl, working out by the week in a respectable family. 
They sent her some letters in answer to her letters. And the 
girl died, and the}' never let her know she was dead, although 
she was living at the same place. And if you will look in the 
death book, you will find she told them where she lived. They 
never gave her any notice that she was dead. She could not go 
and get her. Three months afterwards, she heard from an ac- 
quaintance, who had been up there, that her sister was dead; 
and she went up, and could not get the corpse ; and she never 
saw her sister after that. And then the poor girl, having 
nobody to call for her, having no friends that were notified, was 
worth fifteen dollars to Tom Marsh in cash, or sixteen dollars. 
The Chairman. Now you are out of the record, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. Why so? 
The Chairman. You are outside of the record. 
Gov. Butler. Where am I? 
The Chairman. There is no evidence that she went to any 
medical college, that I remember. 
Gov. Butler. What? 
.The Chairman. Is there any evidence that her body was 
sent? 
Gov. Butler. Pardon me. Let us see ; what they claim to 
be the law is that they have the right, if anybody don’t call for 
the body, to send them to Harvard for fifteen dollars, or to 
Boston University for sixteen. Then the moment that girl’s 
body was not called for, it was worth fifteen dollars if carried 
to Harvard, or sixteen dollars if carried to the other one. Am 
I out of the record now, sir? 
The Chairman. I don’t remember any evidence that her body 
was sent. 
Gov. Butler. I don’t care whether it was sent or not; that 
was the market price for it, sir ; the market was never glutted. 
They all swore that there was more demand than there was sup- 
ply. It was worth that if he chose to take it. 
Mr. Carrigan. There is no evidence of burial in that case. 
Mr. Brown. The record book says she was buried. 
Gov. Butler. Well, I will come to that by and by. I am 
now upon the case of Charlotte Anderson. I will come to that LXXVIII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
all in good time, what the record of burial means. There is no 
record of a single burial here ; not one, I say in passing, and I 
will make it good directly. Now, I say if there is not anything 
else, I appeal to the mothers, the sisters, the fathers of this 
Commonwealth, if, in our days of light, the sight of a poor, sor- 
rowing sister injured in your institution, for which you and I 
are responsible, is not enough to turn them all out doors, and 
lash them as did one who spoke as never man spoke, with a 
whip of small cords? 
But let us pass from this, for I must hurry along. I want 
to say one word about Miss Eva Bowen. She has been 
the target for every prurient-minded rascal in the Common- 
wealth since she came on to this stand. She was a girl 
adopted by a rich father, who loved her to death. She was 
the product of one of our schools, perfectly educated at fifteen, 
writing a most beautiful hand, taught at the normal art school 
to model nude figures in clay. If she had prurient notions when 
she was fifteen, we are responsible for it. We should not have 
sent her to such an institution. Sent her to a good old Ortho- 
dox school, and she would have been a good girl down to now, 
I have no doubt. We taught her too young; we taught her 
imagination before we enlightened her conscience. If she is a 
bad woman, the school system of the Commonwealth is responsible 
for it this day and this hour, under God. And she ran against 
some man who seduced her, a little girl of fifteen. Mr. Brown 
told 3rou that she told me who was her seducer. lie didn’t 
know that, and he who states what he don’t know to be true, 
has a place among the people where there ought to be a lake of 
fire and brimstone. I want to say here and now, as lie has 
attempted to implicate a man here by name, that she never did 
tell me, and she never would. That is what is worse. She was 
true to him. It was put in evidence here that her father thought 
he had too much influence over her, whoever he was. How did 
I find out who her father thought it was ? Because he put an 
old woman on the stand here who said that her father told her 
that it was a man of high social position, higher than the 
governor. 
The Chairman. Next to the governor, she said. 
Gov. Butler. Next to the governor, — whether below or 
above, I don’t care. It was before his day. Now, Mr. Chair- 
man, — and he said that he had so much influence over her that 
he must get her out of his sight and out of his way. This man 1883. 
HOUSE—No. 300. 
LXXIX 
of large social influence, of high name, high name, —and, then, 
the woman suddenly forgot what that name was. She swore 
she did, bat she lied, because that is a thing a woman never 
forgets, scandal; there is no trouble about that. She suddenly 
forgot, and I, tentative with her, called the names. Said I, 
“ Was it the president, or anybody by the name of the presi- 
dent?” And that is all I said upon it. And that is all I at- 
tempted to do with it, because I would not foster a scandal of 
that sort. But it is a man in high social position ! And she 
went away from her father’s house for the purpose of having an 
abortion procured, as she told you ; went to a house where she 
was told to. She was found there, and brought back ; sent to 
Dedham, and, upon the testimony of the physician at Dedham, 
and the physician at the Oak Street Home, she was free from 
any disease when she went to Tewksbury. And there she tells 
us a story that will make the very rafters cry out. 
Now, what object had she in coming here and lying? What 
earthly good? She had told it to a gentleman, — not her 
friend, in the sense that the prurient imagination of the counsel 
has held out, — and he wrote me an account, just as she told it 
here. It was not a story she had made up ; and every word 
of that story is true, and has been confirmed wherever anybody 
has testified ; and the only thing that is against it is that she 
is made to say, in a book made up in the superintendent’s of 
out-door poor or in-door poor, — 1 don’t know which, — office, 
three times over, that she had the syphilis. And he won’t swear 
whether he took that from the Tewksbury books or whether he 
took it from her mouth. Everywhere else she is corroborated. 
Now, she said that her father loved her but that he felt 
the disgrace deeply; that he was under the control of a 
step-mother, and the step-mother made him drive her away. 
And she said that at the very time he was sending her money, 
he wrote to her, through the nurse, saying, that it would be bet- 
ter for the family if she were dead. That was tortured into her 
that he said he wanted her killed. The poor girl never said so. 
That is what she said was in the letter. Mrs. Rowell is the 
nurse. If that wa’n’t in the letter, call Mrs. Rowell. She isn’t 
dead. She received and read that letter ; she has got it, for 
aught you and I know. She says that was in the letter. What 
interpretation Nellie Marsh put upon it, the doctress of the 
Marsh family, God knows. The girl says that, immediately 
after, she was given something, a dose which almost poisoned LXXX 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
her, and Mrs. Rowell flew to the rescue and gave her an anti- 
dote which saved her life, although she vomited a large quantity 
of black stuff up. No physician, no nurse, nobody from Tewks- 
bury denies that. 
Now, then, we hear a great deal that this girl has fallen. Be 
it so ; she is the product of your education. You have no busi- 
ness to take a girl of fifteen years, just at the change of life, and 
put her to school where nude drawings, and nude figures in clay 
or in marble, will excite the imagination, till some rascal can 
take advantage of her passions against her conscience. And I 
told you so in the message, before I had heard of Eva Bowen, — 
what would be the result of such sort of teachings. 
Now, I come to the last thing I want to say.to you, and I will 
deal with that in a very few minutes. I skip all the immaterial 
matters, — that they were bathed in stinking waters and all 
that, as of no consequence in comparison. I now come to a 
single other matter, and that is, — I have told you how they 
treated the living, — I will now show you what they did with the 
dead. And, let me premise : this institution has been running, 
now, ever since 1854 ; and for a quarter of a century under the 
Marshes, and there is no pretence that there is any record of 
what has been done with the dead from that day to this, except 
for the last ten years. Out of the thirty-four in which it has 
been running, thirty-seven in which it has been running, more 
or less, there is not the slightest record pretended, and there 
hasn’t been any bond of any sort till within the last ten years 
of an}r consequence whatever, only a hundred-dollar bond. 
And the colleges have all been supplied from it, and everybody 
else has been supplied. Now, what do they do? Confessedly, 
now ; I don’t want to get in the region of conjecture, of dis- 
puted testimony. It is beyond dispute that they take every body 
that the friends don’t call for, — and that is a very small por- 
tion, — and send them to Harvard, or dispose of them as they 
choose; but before they do it they call a priest and he holds 
funeral services over the remains of all of them that are to be 
cut up. That is undisputed. And then they are put in the 
grave and dug up and carried off, or else they are put in the dead- 
house and cai’riedoff, and put where? Put under the dissecting- 
knife ; and then, through early times, for the first ten years, what 
remained of their bodies, instead of being buried, were thrown 
into a vault where the fishes eat them, upon the undisputed 
testimony of a gentleman ; and the small parts of the bodies 1883.J 
HOUSE — No. 300. 
LXXXI 
were commonly known in the dissecting-room as “ eel-bait,” 
and the eels and the lobsters were right under it. The}’ took 
no care of them whatever. And that has been going on, and 
no man has ever had any account except Tom Marsh, and Tom 
Marsh won’t produce it. Therefore, we are here without any 
account during the whole time, and we have no account of any 
only what have gone to the colleges, only what have gone to 
colleges. There isn’t a single body given to a physician that 
has been accounted for, given to a physician since this institu- 
tion has been running, — not one. They don’t pretend to be 
there, in the 585 bodies,—they all went to the colleges, and 
we have proved that they did deliver outside of colleges, in one 
case, and that illustrates it all. 
Now, these are undisputed facts. There is nobody questions 
this part of it. Now, it is said that this is wliat the Common- 
wealth has meant. I put it to you, gentlemen, was there one 
of you knew that this sort of performance was going on till you 
got on to this committee? If you did, him have I offended. 
Is this the way you would have the poor bodies treated ? Ay, 
give them up to science, if it pleases, but keep a record of their 
whereabouts. Let us know what has become of the children of 
the State, little and great. 
Now, what has been done? All this has been done without 
any authority or account. True, Nourse swears that he made a 
verbal appointment of Tom Marsh as agent, ten years ago; it 
can’t be found on the record ; but he never asked him to account 
about this matter until last March. Last September, he says, 
he filed the account; but he settled the account last March. 
Now, that account is a false one. Divide it by the number of 
bodies, and you will find it gives $14 and some cents to a body. 
I have proved that the colleges outside of Harvard gave $16 ; 
so that that account is a false one on its face ; we need not go 
any further than that. Harvard gave $15 ; the others gave 
$16 a body. The two that the doctor from the insane asylum 
brought away are not in that account, and they don’t belong 
there. 
Now, all this is undisputed. What did Dr. Dixwell say? 
He said, when I called him under a subpoena, he having said 
nothing to me since he swore before the grand jury, when I 
called him under a supboena, he says, “ I was at Harvard Col- 
lege ; I was an enthusiastic anatomist,”—I am not giving words 
but substance, —“ an enthusiastic anatomist, and I had rather LXXXII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
dissect babies Ilian dissect parts. I fitted myself up a dissect- 
ing-room at Cambridge, in my father’s house, at the end of my 
father’s house, and took my bodies there to dissect, and I bought 
an infant body because that would show all. And I know other 
students have bought them, so, taking with what I knew, there 
was 150 to 200 bodies there, and they were got of Andrews. 
We dissected our lessons on the tables ; these lessons must be 
adults, at that time, — it has been changed since. Very well. 
And we got them of Andrews, and I paid him a dollar to three 
dollars, three dollars, and the very best specimens five, and he 
said he got them at Tewksbury.” I doubt whether he got all at 
Tewksbury, although the death-rate would be sufficient to sup- 
ply him. 
Now, he had been a respectable man, never interfered with. 
He came here against his will, as he went before the grand jury 
against his will, and stated these facts, and no man has contra- 
dicted him. They came here and said there weren’t any on the 
dissecting-table. Be it so ; be it so. They came here and set 
their case upon it. But that isn’t what Dr. Dixwell said. He 
said he got them of Andrews and paid him for them. Now, I 
put on two men who testified that they got the same thing and 
dissected them, babies, and one of them said it counted as one 
of his parts by agreement with the college, that he need not dis- 
sect three parts of a body if he dissected one half of a baby. 
And I don’t see why he should. Now, what did they attempt 
to start off here with ? Every institution has bad men in it and 
every institution has good ones. When Christ undertook, aided 
by omniscience, to choose twelve disciples, He chose one that 
had a devil. I don’t believe that Harvard Medical School 
averages better than that. The}T brought three or four of these 
people here to swear to what? In the first place that nobody 
ever dissected a baby; that ever wanted one. That is 
entirely exploded, now, upon the of four or five wit- 
nesses. Second, that there was never but one body at a time 
in the dead-house, — every rascal of them swore that, — two at 
most. None of them ever saw it. 1 brought two men here 
yesterday, who went in, perfectly outside men, and said that 
they saw dead bodies, ten on the tables, and in the dead-room 
piled up like cord-wood, twelve and twenty thrown in higglety- 
pigglety, with the dead infants between their legs. 
Now, then, here is another piece of evidence. One of our 
witnesses, Chase, — and who is Chase? He was the sub-agent 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXXXIII 
for these dead bodies, reported so by Tom J. Marsh, — and he 
swears that he heard a quarrel between, words between Miss 
Manning and Marsh, because he would not pay her, for the in- 
fants that they put in the trunks, extra. And, then, after keep- 
ing us here with the swearing of these runt doctors, that there 
were no babies taken there, they come in here and put in the 
report of the trustees that there were 36, that there were 36. 
Well, what then? 
Now, then, they commenced an attack upon Dixwell, as they 
did upon everybody else. I brought one, two, three, four, five, 
six, seven, eight, as respectable people as there are on earth, and 
they told you that Mr. Dixwell was honest, and no man ever 
knew anything against him. Even Farnsworth, whom I brought 
here, whom he had quarrelled with, — brought him purposely, 
knowing he was against me, wanting to show the worst that 
could be said, because I knew that I held him by the throat by 
his letter, wherein he said he never had so good a snb-agent as 
Dixwell, and he didn’t know where he should ever find another; 
and then I let him loose, because I had a string with which I 
could fetch him up just like that. Now, there he was ; and he 
says that the only fault lie found with him was, he was too char- 
itable to the Russian Jews, and they quarrelled upon that; and 
Dixwell says, “ Very well; if I have paid out too much of the 
society’s money, I won’t take my salary ; ” and he begged him to 
come and take it, and begged him to come back. Then, one of 
the others was Mr. Wendell Phillips. Here and now, I have no 
occasion to enter upon any euloginm of him ; and he swears he 
has known him egg and bird, father and mother, and sister and 
uncle, from childhood ; and there is no man in the world whose 
word he would trust sooner than his ; and that he never had the 
idea of lunacy with which he is charged. Oh, lunacy is the weapon 
that these doctors use whenever a rich man wants to get rid of 
an old wife and marry a young one ; they swear she is a lunatic 
and get her into an insane hospital, and then the old man has a 
chance. It is no new weapon. I have been battling this infer- 
nal idea of everybody’s being a lunatic, for forty years. He 
a lunatic ! And the chief of police, who had known him always, 
trusted this lunatic to take the ball out of his arm, and the old 
experienced physician stood by and allowed him to use the 
knife. The testimony of these men covers his whole case with 
a blanket. 
Now, Dixwell either told the truth or he didn’t tell the truth. LXXXIV 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
If he didn’t tell the truth Tom Marsh’s books will show it, and 
you have no right to say he didn’t tell the truth when they keep 
back the record. [Applause.] 
The Chairman. Door-keepers, do your duty ! 
Gov. Butler. I rather suspect it was one of them who was 
applauding. 
The Chairman. It will take time Out of you; that is why I 
do it. 
Gov. Butler. I understand ; don’t interrupt me any more 
than you can help. 
The Chairman. I won’t. 
Gov. Butler. I have one thing more to say upon that. 
They don’t claim he was crazy till three or four years ago, when 
he began to show signs by not wearing just such clothes as the 
mutton-chop-whiskered fellows here. But he swore to this years 
ago, when he was not crazy. It must have been, then, mere 
devilish spite ; and, gentlemen, nobod}’ claims that Harvard has 
ever done him any wrong till now. Therefore, I take his testi- 
mony and you are bound to take it, in the absence of the 
record. 
Now, gentlemen, what else do they do with bodies down to 
Harvard? You have heard nothing for the last month in the 
newspapers but about the “ freak of a student,”—in the satanic 
press. And if anybody wants to know why I give it that name 
it is because Satan is the father of lies. Here now [holding up 
a piece of leather], there is from one woman’s back, from one 
tannery. I haven’t given that away in relics, have I? There 
is from a negro’s belly [holding up another piece], from another 
tannery. There is.a shoe [holding up another piece], just cut 
out, which I took off a shoemaker’s bench, — there is the vamp 
and there is the quarter. What were they cut from ? Cut from 
that piece, as-you see [holding up another piece] ; fits right in 
as close as it could. Why didn’t they cut closer? Because 
there is the nipple of the woman [pointing to it], and it could 
not be smooth to cut it any closer. Here is more of it; here is 
another piece of a man’s skin tanned, the difference in the color 
being simply that one is with sumach and the other is with 
maple bark. You have still another piece from another tan- 
nery, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Here it is, Governor [handing the governor 
an envelope] ; I don’t want to keep it any longer. 
Gov. Butler. All right; I will keep good care of it as you 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXXXV 
have. No, this is not all, sir. [Examining the contents of 
the envelope]. I want that thick piece that came off the nigger. 
The Chairman. The clerk has kept that; I was custodian 
of only one piece. 
Gov. Butler. These are samples which you took from these 
pieces to identify them. But there is a piece besides, from 
another tanner. 
Now, this got to be an industry. What do you suppose peo- 
ple want of these? Why, there are old men and young men 
with jaded passions, worn out prematurely by their vices, and 
if they can put their feet into slippers made from a woman’s 
breast, perhaps the}7 can excite passion. This no new thing. 
This is the cutting up of paupers’ bodies, and skinning them. 
This is the skinning of paupers’ bodies to put on the feet of the 
aristocrats. Let us see how it was a few years ago. I hold in 
my hand Carlyle’s French Revolution. There is still another 
[holding up a piece of skin], which I offered here, where the 
man who was in Tewksbury had that on his breast; but the 
committee ruled it out. Let us see if this is an unheard-of 
thing. I read, Mr. Chairman, from the 351st.page of Carlyle’s 
French Revolution : — 
“ Still deeper into one’s heart goes that tannery at Meudon; not 
mentioned among the other miracles of tanning! ‘ At Meudon,’ says 
Montgaillard, with considerable calmness, ‘ there was a tannery of 
human skins; such of the guillotined as seemed worth flaying; of 
which perfectly good wash-leather was made ; ’ for breeches and other 
uses. The skin of the men, he remarks, was superior in toughness 
(consistance) and quality to shamoy; that of the women was good for 
almost nothing, being so soft in texture! * History, looking back 
over cannibalism, through Purchas's Pilgrims, and all early and late 
records, will perhaps find no terrestrial cannibalism of a sort on the 
whole so detestable. It is a manufactured, soft-feeling, quietly ele- 
gant sort: a sort perfide! Alas, then, is man’s civilization only a 
wrappage, through which the savage nature of him can still burst, 
infernal as ever ? Nature still makes him; and has an infernal in 
her as well as a celestial.” 
It is the pauper’s skin that is tanned now for the slippers of 
the aristocrat. It was from my lord and lady’s skin that was 
tanned then for the shoes and breeches of the paupers. It is 
your duty, gentlemen, and mine, to see that the wheel don’t go 
round once again, if for no other reason than to save our own skins, 
* Montgaillard, iv., 290. LXXXVI 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
because one side won’t stand skinning always, understand that. 
And they come here and tell me, they all swear that there never 
was such a thing as a negro’s skin at Harvard. I have a history 
of Harvard in my hand, in which a writer gives a picture of 
Harvard library as it existed in 1750; I will read it: “The 
library is very large and well stored with books, but much 
abused by frequent abuse. The repository of curiosities, which 
was not over well stocked. Saw 2 Human Skellitons, a piece 
Neigro’s hide tail’d, &c.” 
Well, it seems the}' have been at it for 150 years. It is an 
old trick of theirs, and I am determined to put a stop to it some- 
how, and I want you to help me. And if we have done no other 
good thing by this investigation, we have called the attention of 
the people of the world to this cannibalism. No matter who did 
it, we shall stop it now. It is said that it was done without 
the knowledge of the professors. Let them be more careful, 
then. I see in the newspapers that I am to be sued. 
The Chairman. Brother Brown has brought the suit, we 
hear. 
Mr. Brown. I don’t know anything about it. It seems to 
me to come from the press you tell about, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I didn’t believe anything about it, but it was 
said the price was immediate!}' raised, because I had stopped 
the supply. That is all I want to say about it. If we have 
done no other good, I say, but that, we have done so much 
good, at least. 
Now, I am obliged to my brother for putting in the record of 
the Soldiers’ Home, and I cannot, in the twenty-five minutes I 
have left to me, do better than to call your attention to a little 
of it. lie says that it cost $3 and a few cents a week to take 
care of the people ; and he wonders why it should cost so much, 
if I think I can do it so cheap. Let me show you the difference 
in our bills of fare. In the first place, of what birth were they? 
Per cent., native born, 41£; foreign born, 58£, in our soldiers’ 
homes. Before you go to saying anything against the foreign 
born, let me tell you, you had better look out. They fought 
your battles. Fifty-eight and a half per cent, of the soldiers 
now in the disabled soldiers’ homes, are of foreign birth. We 
stayed to home, and pressed soft cushions and skinned paupers, 
while these foreigners so much sneered at were fighting our 
battles. 
Now, let us see what is given them to eat, and compare it 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXXXVII 
with the Tewksbury bill of fare. You will find it on the eleventh 
page of this report: — 
“ A few words as to the food of this institution. It took 278 tur- 
keys for their Thanksgiving dinner ” — 
we didn’t send our chickens and turkeys over to the trustees, — 
“ and their last1 pot pie 1 required 34 sheep, 15| barrels of potatoes 
and two barrels of flour. During the year they eat 758 head of 
cattle, 1,659 head of sheep, 3,714 barrels of flour, 15,747 dozen eggs, 
154,932 pounds of butter, 69,289 pounds of coffee, 57,941 pounds of 
fish, 7,950 pounds of tea, 10,570 cans of tomatoes, 16,431 pounds of 
rice, 110,440 pounds of sugar, 21,325 pounds of prunes, and other 
articles too numerous to mention, amounting together to the sum of 
$204,728.20.” 
Now, let us see what else they had. They had clothing — 
every one had a regimental suit. They had laundries ; they 
had workshops, and a total of 505 employed in them ; and the 
amount of their product was $158,766. The cigar shop gave 
employment to ninety men, who earned $6,000 and made 
1,800,000 cigars, which sold for $33,347, and realized to the 
home a net profit of $3,000. Eighteen men with knitting ma- 
chines made 2,069 dozen pairs of stockings, which realized a 
total of $7,391.46, and a profit of $1,478.26. One disabled sol- 
dier made 161 dozen brooms, which, after paying for material 
and his labor, returned a net profit of $203 ; and so on. 
Farms and gardens: The total value of the produce of the 
year was $32,000, and the net profit was $6,000. Now, let us 
see about our green-houses. Instead of all the flowers going to 
Charles Marsh’s house, except what few they set out, let us see 
what we did : — 
“ Last year the Central Branch realized about $400 from the sale of 
flowers, while this year the sum received was $1,489.50, being nearly 
four times as much as last year. Besides, the green-houses at the 
Central furnished last year 29,956 plants, shrubs, etc. (including 
many fine roses), for the adornment of the home grounds The 
chief gardener reports 64,510 plants, shrubs, etc., on hand, which he 
reports to be worth $8,880.65.” 
And for fuller details reference is made to the gardener’s 
report. Now, let us see what else we did. We paid these 
men for their labor. The number employed for pay was 1,566 ; LXXXVIII 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
the amount paid out was $90,000 and odd. That is one insti- 
tution. At all four the total was $144,000 paid out to disabled 
soldiers for what they did. Then, for amusements: We had a 
store out of which they might get everything that they pleased, 
and the gross sales in that store were $63,000 ; net profits, 
$16,000, which went into the institution. Then, we gave every 
man transportation that wanted it that could not pay for it, and 
the whole amount of that was $15,345. 
Now, then, if I can only find the bill of fare. Here it is. 
[Referring to book.] I want you to compare this, gentlemen: 
“Sunday — Breakfast: boiled ham, fried potatoes, graham bread, 
butter, coffee; — 
— did you have anything better than that at your hotel this 
morning, gentlemen ? — 
— dinner: roast mutton, potatoes, turnips, apple-pie, bread, butter, 
coffee; supper, tomatoes (stewed), bread, butter, gingerbread, tea. 
Monday — Breakfast: corned beef, potatoes, butter, bread, coffee; 
dinner: vegetable soup, boiled beef, potatoes, bread, crackers; sup- 
per : hominy and syrup, biscuit, butter, cheese, tea. Tuesday — 
Breakfast: Irish stew, potatoes, bread, butter, coffee; dinner: pickled 
shoulders, cabbage, beets, bread, butter, coffee; supper: bread, but- 
ter, apple-sauce, cookies, tea. 
And so on, for each day. Now, then, how much do you sup- 
pose that cost a week — that sort of living? Twenty cents a 
day, or $1.40 a week. Didn’t I know whether I could run 
this establishment up here for $70,000? I could run it to a 
shaving. No trouble about it at all. 
And these men had a library where 71,000 books were read 
in a quarter; had over 400 periodicals; had amusements. 
Read that! [Holding up the book.] Read that! And 
then let some man undertake to talk about the way' the soldiers’ 
homes were run. I am always glad when I can find a fair op- 
portunity to speak by the record. This was not a poorhouse. 
These men were m3’ old comrades, and I meant the}' should 
live, and they' did live as well as I do, and no man of them 
ever complained. Never ! And whenever anybody wants to inves- 
tigate these institutions, while they were under my charge, I 
won’t call an officer, but I will raise my hand, and I will say, 
“ M}t old comrades, soldiers, come here and defend your old 1883. 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
LXXXIX 
commander,” and they will clear out this State House so quick 
your heads will swim. 
And that brings me to just this. Here this institution has 
been running for all these years. Sixty-odd thousand inmates, 
and the}' have not brought a single one to say a good word for 
them, except that whoremaster, French Joe. Not one can they 
find out of all who have been in here, man or woman, sane or 
insane. Nobody is crazy enough to say a good word for the 
Marshes, except when the Marshes stand over them. Isn’t that 
so? Wouldn’t you be ashamed to be at the head of an institu- 
tion for a quarter of a century, where nobody would say a good 
word for you in your time of trial? If there was no other 
piece of evidence that is enough. 
Now, gentlemen, you were told that these soldiers’ homes 
cost $1 more a week only than did this burnt rye coffee, tea, 
bad beef and bad fish, — admitted, the worst they could buy, 
of the class, all bone, — than did this here. I don’t want these 
poor men to have anything! Give me charge of them and I 
will see they are well fed. I know how much it will cost. Or, 
give somebody charge of them whom I can direct and tell how 
to do it, and won’t steal half of it. I know you see whereof I 
affirm. 
Now, gentlemen, there is another thing about this ; there is a 
matter in which we have done good in another way. This 
investigation has brought out, through all the laud, these facts, 
and has turned everybody’s attention to them ; and, from Maine 
to Georgia, every week I see where some almshouse is being 
investigated. In the Tribune of yesterday there is this : 
“ If General Butler were governor of Texas he might perhaps find a 
legitimate object of attack in the Dallas County poor farm, the alleged 
brutal management of which is said to be creating intense excite- 
ment and indignation. Already there are reports of a man clubbed 
to death and a little girl beaten with a fence rail, not to mention one 
death through neglect, constant cruelty and insufficient food. An 
official investigation, with sensational results, is expected ” 
They are waking up down in Texas. We have woke them 
up everywhere. We have done a “ heap of good,” as they say 
down in Texas, if all this has been wrong. It has been a bene- 
fit to the country ; and I claim this benefit, if no more, for your 
labors and mine. All that was before us in object when we be- 
gan was the changing of this administration ; and with me that XC 
CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. 
[Apr. 
there might be greater economy, and greater comfort with 
greater economy. I would give S3 where there is Si given now 
rather than to have a comfort taken away from one of these 
poor creatures that they have now. My proposi- 
tion is, they don’t have , the worth of their money. 
Too many mouths of officers; too many officers that 
do nothing; too many matrons just out of school, only 
fit to ride out with Charles Marsh, or the other Marsh, 
Tom Marsh, in the afternoon. Call that little chit a matron, 
and pay her from the State as a matron ! Why, she is hardly 
out of her leading strings, only a few months from school when 
she was appointed. Give us ladies advanced in life, advanced 
in experience, prepared for this work, and j-ou won’t want so 
many of them. You would want a thousand like that little 
u critter ” to do any good among a lot of old men except to 
excite their passions. 
What I desired has been accomplished. The Marshes and 
French Joe have gone ; and the Board of Health and Charity, 
when I put the responsibility of keeping them there, did what 
they thought they must, got rid of them, unloaded them. They 
would not bear that burden a moment. I knew that when I put 
it upon them. They were men of responsibility, they were re- 
sponsible men, and that is why the}" made so much objection to 
taking it; for they knew the moment they took upon them the 
dut}- of trustees, that moment there would be the whole respon- 
sibility upon them, and then they must turn out the Marshes, 
and they must strike a vital blow at their party, — for suicide 
is confession always, alwaj’s. Ttiere can be no doubt upon that 
subject. We have now got it under a different management. 
Mr. Brown says it is not a good management. I am sorry to 
hear it. 1 will examine into it as soon as ever I can, — I was 
going to say get rid of you, gentlemen, but I will take that 
back, — as soon as you can get rid of me. 
The Chairman. We haven’t gone, yet, Governor. 
Gov. Butler. I will attend to that; and if what he said 
is true, the same hand that made the board of lunacy and 
charity trustees of Tewksbury, can unmake them just like that 
[snapping his fingers] ; and it will be done in five minutes if 
they are spending more money than they ought to, as soon as I 
find it out. So there is no trouble about it. 
All is accomplished, except something that I dare not speak 
of, — the political objects. I was accused of having high politi- 1883.] 
HOUSE —No. 300. 
XCI 
cal objects in this matter. How was I going to do it? By do- 
ing my duty, I suppose. I don’t know any other way I should 
do it; and is not that a good way to accomplish political ends ? 
I think it is. Do my honest duty by my State, b}’ the people, 
and especially in behalf of those that had no other friend. 
Most of them cannot vote. [Applause, and the chairman rose, 
and rapped for order.] Don’t applaud now, please, because, 
you see, it stops everything. 
The Chairman. There isn’t but five minutes. 
Gov. Butler. I know I am very short of time. Why, if I 
had been looking after votes, I could have had all the Marshes 
on my side like a wink, just like a wink. No trouble about 
that. They run the politics up in my neighborhood, used to, 
and did it exceedingly well, sir, too. [Turning to T. J. Marsh, 
Jr.] But I could not help that; I could not do that. I am not 
on that side ever. God made me in one way, that I must be 
always with the under dog in the fight. I can’t help it; I can’t 
change it, and, upon the whole, I don’t want to change it.