Oral History Interview of Michael E. DeBakey
From the Lyndon Baines Johnson Library

Austin, Texas

June 29, 1969

History of Medicine Division
National Library of Medicine
Bethesda, Maryland
GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION
NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS SERVICE
LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON LIBRARY

Legal Agreement Pertaining to the Oral History Interview of Michael £. DeBakey

In accordance with the provisions of Chapter 21 of Title 44, United States
Code and subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter set forth, I,
Michael E. DeBakey of Houston, Texas do hereby give, donate, and convey

to the United States of America all my rights, title, and interest in the
tape recording and transcript of the personal interview conducted on

June 29, 1969 in Houston, Texas and prepared for deposit in the Lyndon

Baines Johnson Library.
This assignment is subject to the following terms and conditions:

(1) The transcript shall be available for use by researchers as soon
as it has been deposited in the Lyndon Baines Johnson Library.

(2) The tape recording shall be available to those researchers who
have access to the transcript.

(3) I hereby assign to the United States Government al] copyright
I may have in the interview transcript and tape.

(4) Copies of the transcript and the tape recording may be provided
by the Library to researchers upon request.

(5) Copies of the transcript and tape recording may be deposited in
or loaned to institutions other than the Lyndon Baines Johnson Library.

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INTERVIEW I

DATE:

June 29, 1969

INTERVIEWEE: DR. MICHAEL E. DeBAKEY

INTERVIEWER: DAVID McCOMB

PLACE:

Fondren-Brown Building, Texas Medical Center,
Houston, Texas

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Well, for the sake of the record, Dr. DeBakey, I'd like to know

a little bit about your background. Where were you born, when,

and where did you get your education?
Well, I was born in Lake Charles, Louisiana, and got my

preliminary education in Lake Charles at the grammar school and

high school there.

What was the year that you were born?
I was born on September 7, 1908. And following that I went to
Tulane University where I got all my college education; got a
bachelor's degree, bachelor of science degree, and then went into

medical school at Tulane and got my M.D. degree there, and subse-

quently got my master's degree. Then [I] had some training in

surgery at the Charity Hospital, my intern and residency there in
surgery under Dr. Alton Ochsner.

Excuse me. How do you spell that name?

It's Q-C-H-S-N-E-R. ©

Thank you.

Following which, in 1935 and 1336 I went and studied in

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 2

Europe as what they call an assistant etranger, a foreign

assistant, to Professor René Leriche, who is one of the pioneer

vascular surgeons, at the University of Strasbourg. Subsequently

I went and spent another period of foreign assistance. I was about

a year in the University of Strasbourg and almost a year at the
University of Heidelberg, under Professor Kirschner, K-I-R-S-C-H-N-E-R.
Then I returned home and went on the staff, the surgical staff, in

the Department of Surgery as a full time member of the Department
of Surgery at Tulane University with Dr. Alton Ochsner.
And then where did you go from there?

I was there until '42--

You must have been in the Army.

--and then I went into the Army. I was in the service from '42

through '46. I was assigned to Surgeon General's Office, in the

Surgical Consultants Division under Dr. Fred Rankin, who was Chief

of that division. In some respects, I suppose, this really got me

interested in government, because I had the opportunity to learn a
great deal about governmental medical services, and I became more
involved and more interested in overall problems.

Were you in Washington at the time?

Yes. I was based in Washington, although I had temporary service

overseas. In fact, I had temporary service with each one of the

armies overseas in the European theatre of operations, Mediterranean

theatre of operations.

But this gave me an opportunity, because of the kind of work

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 3

that I was involved in, to become interested in what might be called
the socioeconomic and administrative and organizational problems in
medicine in the country. I initiated a number of projects in
this regard. One was the medical research program of the Veterans
Administration. I suggested to the Surgeon General the need for
such an organization to follow up on various kinds of medical
problems that had taken place in army personnel, and this provided
a good opportunity to do certain types of research of a long-term
nature. This program was subsequently adopted, and I worked at the
National Research Council to get it organized.
Is this your first experience with what you might call Medical
Administration?
Yes. That's right. That was my first experience. But that I think
initiated, and, ina sense, stimulated my interest in the broader
problems of medicine, particularly as they have social relevance.
Then I continued my interest in these matters and made a number of
suggestions about ways and means of improving the, you might say,
organizational and administrative roles in medicine. Then I served
on the Medical Committee of the Hoover Commission, and this gave me
further opportunity to study the organizational and administrative
matters that relate to the federal medical services, and of course,
how they touch upon the civilian population.

There are a number of recommendations that came out of this
study that were adopted by the Hoover Commission. Subsequently one

of them of considerable importance was the one that recommended the

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 4

establishment of the National Library of Medicine, which is a
direct outgrowth of this study. This was adopted by the Congress;
Senators Hil] and Kennedy joined together to put in a bill to
establish the National Library of Medicine. This was subsequently
passed, and the National Library of Medicine was then established.
I served on the first Board of Regents of the National Library of
Medicine and subsequently was Chairman of that Board. So this was
a very important development.

We also initiated the establishment of a Department of Defense
Hedical Advisory Council. I served on the initial Committee,
and again I've been reappointed to that Committee. I'm serving on
that Committee now. So I've had a continuing interest in these
matters and an education, so to speak. I also served on the second
Hoover Commission, the medical committee of the second Hoover
Commission, since, you remember, there were two of them.
Yes.
I became more and more interested in the medical research and what
might be called the delivery of health care relating to the knowledge
gained from medical research. So I became interested in the National
Institutes of Health. I served on many of their study sections
and on their councils, but especially those relating to the Heart
Institute, because my field of interest was in cardiovascular
diseases.
Did you have much contact with congressmen and senators?

Oh, yes. You see I began my contacts with congressmen when I was

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 5

trying to push the idea of getting a National Library of Medicine
Started. This really provided me with the opportunity to contact
and to work very closely with some of the congressmen, like Senators
Hill and Kennedy and other congressmen, Fogarty, who were interested
in the medical area.

They were fairly receptive to these ideas?

Oh, yes, very receptive, and they were, I would say, very enlightened
about the importance and the significance, the implications, of

these projects. I think it was very stimulating for me to see how

some of our congressmen were so dedicated and so enlightened and

knowledgeable about these matters. This required a great deal of activity.

Did you have any contact with Lyndon Johnson in this period?

Well, yes. You see, as a consequence of my interest in these
areas and the important role that the President played in Congress
before he became Vice President, I had the opportunity to meet him
and therefore [had] an opportunity to talk with him about some of
these matters. So I got to know him when he was a Congressman, and
from time to time I'd go see him to see if I could get him to help
us steer some of these bills through. He was extremely gracious and
understanding and certainly treated me very kindly. I was especially
moved by his seeming interest in health, you see. I think that
some people, you know, have the idea that his interest in health
occurred only later. But actually he had a longstanding interest
in health, and I think a very good basic understanding of the

importance of health to our people and the desire to provide it.

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 6

Well, this would seem to be a significant point, since there is
the opinion that Lyndon Johnson was mainly a political tactician
with interest in getting bills through rather than having any deep
feelings about the substance of the bills themselves.

No, no. I always had the distinct impression that he had a real
feeling for... . In fact, I think [he] has a sense of humani-
tarianism in him in this regard. He understood the needs of people
in terms of their health needs. He recognized that a large segment
of the population was not getting good health care, that it was

not being delivered to them, that they were not ina position to
get it. And I can recall so well my experience with him on the

Medicare. I had previously become chairman of a special ad hoc

committee in the National Democratic Party for advising the Platform

Committee on the health program. This was quite a distinguished
committee of lay and medical people.

This was in 1964?

No. This goes back to, I think, 1960.

That early?

Yes.

Was it when Kennedy became President?

Yes. It was after he became . . . . Well, it was before that, you

see.

Before that?

Yes. We came out strongly for Medicare. And then when Kennedy

became President, of course Mr. Johnson was Vice President, well we

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 7

tried to work very closely with them, those of us who had come

out so strongly for Medicare, to try to move this bill. There was
great opposition at that time in the medical profession. So, we
rather stood alone, some of us, and were targets for their
attacks. I recall so wel] an occasion when President Kennedy was
anxious to have a group of medical people come and stand with him
on a television presentation he was going to make to the people
about Medicare. I was asked to help get some medical people to
come there, and I was amazed to see how few we could get to stand
up, even though some of them were for it.

However, as you know, President Kennedy failed to move this
bill through Congress. But Mr. Johnson did move it through, and
I'm sure that he moved it through because of his strong feeling
about the need. That is not to say that President Kennedy did not
have the same feeling, because I think he did, but I always had
the impression that President Johnson had a much stronger emotional,
sort of gut reaction to this matter than President Kennedy. Of
course, I think that President Johnson was definitely a better sort
of political strategist and tactician in achieving the goal of,
let's say, getting a bil] through than President Kennedy.

How did Johnson win the hearts, or at least the assent, of the
medical profession for Medicare? Do you have any insight on that?
Well, I would say that he didn't really ever win them. I think that
he finally persuaded them that it was necessary for them to accept

this, and therefore to work with the Administration to develop a

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 8

bill that was the best bill that they felt, as well as the
government felt, would get through. But I think that from a
political, sort of tactical standpoint, what Mr. Johnson did was
to get enough support in Congress to be sure that he was going to
get this bill through, and then to persuade the medical people
that they were fighting a losing battle to block this; therefore,
they ought to come on in and help write the bill, you see. This
is what really forced them to do it, because they never did really
accept it.

Did you play any role in the passage of the Medicare Bill?

Well, I testified, yes, and I worked to support it. I gave talks
about it. I went to see congressmen about it. Sure, I did as
much lobbying as I could. |

OF course now, by this time, you're in Houston.

Yes. I had moved to Houston in 1949, when I was asked to come here
to be the chairman of the Department of Surgery in Baylor College
of Medicine. So I had moved to Houston by that time, yes.

Again, for the sake of the record, you have been based here ever
Since, have you not?

Yes. That's correct.

And later becoming Surgeon Chief at Ben Taub?

Yes.

Is that correct?

Yes. That's correct.

And President of Baylor, of course, recently.

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 9

Well, recently I became President of the College. That's right.
When the College separated itself from the University, and
therefore from its Baptist affiliation, and became an independent
corporation and [got] a new Board of Trustees. That's right.
Well, now, working here in Houston with all of your multi-faceted
medical duties, how did you have time to go to Washington and do
this other lobbying and that sort of thing?

Well, I simply took the time. It's always a matter of priority
of time for anyone who has a number of activities. It's just

a question of where you put your priority in use of your time.

I put a high priority on these matters that concerned the medical
profession and that affected the health of our people, to give time
to it in Washington, to work with the Administration and with
congressmen in pushing ahead on these matters, and particularly in
getting money for the programs. Because it's all very well and
good to talk about the passage of a bill or getting enabling
legislation for a program, but it's of no use at all unless you
can get money to implement them. This has always been, I would
say, the biggest problem of all.

I think that as far as health legislation jis concerned, Mr.
Johnson has done more in this regard than certainly any other
President in our government. He passed more bills and more
enabling legislation and more programs, so I think there can be
no question of his interest in this area. And you see, I think
the evidence would clearly indicate this was not a political

stratagem as far as he was concerned. Because you don't get

 

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much, let's say political mileage, from the passage of these
various kinds of political, legislative programs. There just

are not that many votes in that area, you see. And secondly, you
get no political mileage from the medical profession. They're
generally opposed to these things, and their history, certainly in
the recent past, has been to support the Republican political

area rather than the Democratic.

You might be in a position to give some insight into why the
medical profession is that way.

Well, I think this is a curious phenomenon in many respects,
because I think generally speaking the individual physician is
not that way. But when you get physicians organized, then there
comes to the forefront in the organization those members of the
profession who might be called the militant political members,
and they're generally the radicals, you know. They're at the

end of the spectrum, and since the medical profession would very
unlikely have any of the left end of the spectrum you see, they're
mostly in the middle of the spectrum, then the militant, radical
group is going to be at the right end of the spectrum. They

tend to give time and effort and to be highly vocal about their
position and to, in a sense, achieve a certain political leader-
ship. And I think this is what does it. I think that the great
mass of physicians who are in practice are so busy and so
involved in their practice they tend to let somebody else fool with
the organization and the administration and the political area.

This by default goes to the people who want to give it time, and

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 1]

they're the militants, you see?

I see.

This is one of the reasons that you have this sort of conservative
appearance, and also conservative attitude, on the part of organized
medicine. You take, for example, almost any state or county medical
society; it's difficult to get a meeting where you'll have a majority
of the doctors in that area. In fact, only a small minority will come
to these meetings. But at the professional meetings, let's say,
specialty societies, the doctors go, because they're interested in

the professional activities and their own education and so on.

Then, for political purposes, if you want to reach the medical pro-
fession, you should go to the professional meetings. Is that right?
Well, the trouble is that they tend to avoid any political aspects

in the professional meetings. That is, the professional scientific
meetings will tend to not consider any political aspects.

Well, then, if you are trying to persuade your colleagues to accept
Medicare, where would you contact them?

I would contact the better professional scientific leaders.

This would be on a personal basis?

Yes, and that's what I did, although I did try and talk to various

groups, professional groups.

Did you happen to work with Wilbur Cohen any on Medicare?

Oh, yes. Yes, I did. I got to know Wilbur Cohen very well. He's
a very able, dedicated man, who I think has done much to improve

the health care of the people of this country. [He] contributed

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 12

greatly to the program. I did have the opportunity to work with
him very closely.

After Lyndon Johnson became President, did you have any contact with
him?

Oh, yes.

What was your initial ...?

Well, I had contact with him. I suppose the main and perhaps major
contact came about through his appointing me Chairman of the
Commission on Heart Disease, Cancer and Stroke.

That's a Special Presidential Commission?

Yes. This was, I think, a very important landmark in health
legislation.

Can you tell me the details about how that came about?

Well, there had been previously a Heart and Cancer Committee that
had been established by President Kennedy. And of course, this had
come about, to a large extent, through the recommendations of the

Platform Committee, members of the Health Committee that advised _

 

_the Platform Committee of the National Democratic Party. One of

 

disease and cancer, and

And it is of interest [that] we made a special report to the

President, and unfortunately the day that we did this was the day .

see tne President. We were finally told that he was just too busy

 

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DeBAKEY -- I ~~ 13

with this very urgent matter. So we left our report. We never
heard anything more from the White House about it, and it was never
implemented, and nothing was ever done. So when Mr. Johnson
became President we revived our efforts to do something about this.
How did you do that?
Well, various friends of the President, citizens, and some of the
congressmen suggested to the President that the best way to do
this would be to establish a commission, a Presidential commission,
and to get distinguished people on it. He accepted this idea
quite enthusiastically.
Do you remember anybody in particular who Suggested this to the
President?
Well, I would Say that probably the one person wno did more to
push this idea, to initiate and push this idea, was Mrs. Albert.
Lasker. I worked very Closely with her as one person who had

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gotten to know her well through working on her Jury, and of course

taving also at one time received the Lasker Avard for Clinical .

Research. _

Now, let me clear up a point. When you say, "working on her jury,”
what do you mean?

Well, she supports through a foundation the Lasker Awards, and they
have these juries that select the candidates to win the awards.

She is a good friend of the President's, you know, a personal

friend.

She is a very good personal friend. She was also a good friend of

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 14

the Kennedys. She was largely responsible for the recommendation
in the National Democratic Platform.

I see.

And [she] was a member at one time, I've forgotten which time, of
the Special Ad Hoc Committee.

I see,

Then when President Johnson became tne President, we renewed our
efforts to revive this idea which had really been one of the
commitments that the Democratic Party had made and accepted. So
Mr. Johnson, instead of just setting up a committee, accepted the
idea that it would be far more effective if it were established
as a Presidential commission, wnich I thought was again evidence
of his recognition of its importance, the health matter, and,
secondly, of his own political astuteness. Because this gave it
image and visibility, and the report became a rather important
report, and from this some legislation came about.

Right. Now, how did they go about picking you as Chairman? How
were you notified?

I was called and notified through one of the presidential aides.

This is Doug Cater?

No, it wasn't. I think it was Nr. Feldman, Mike Feldman, because

he was a person that I worked with closely throughout the work of

the Commission.

I see.

He had been one of President Kennedy's aides, and then he stayed on

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 15

in the White House to become one of President Johnson's aides.

What did he do, call youup and ask you?

Yes. He called me on the phone and he [said] that the President has
asked him to call me and ask me if I would be willing to serve as
the Chairmanof this Commission. Of course, I was highly honored.
Did you ever find out why you were selected?

No. I don't know why I was selected. I'm sure that the President
was advised by a number of different people. You know, a number of
people must have advised him that knev me. And, of course, he

knew me. In any case, I'm convinced that he made the selection
himself. Because he called me in, when we first met, to talk to

me about this and to give me my charce. Then we went together to
meet the Commissioners at-the first meeting, and he talked to them.
He has a very effective way of discussing matters with individuals
or with groups and persuading them, so to speak, to work for him.
He has a very effective way of inspiring and stimulating people

to work towards a problem.

Well, now, maybe you can give me a specific example of that in your
own case, when he called you in at the meeting.

Yes. When he called me into his office and gave mea. .

Was this shortly after they called you?

Yes.

Did you fly up to Washington?

I flew to Washington, and a rather interesting thing happened. 1

was waiting to see the President, and Jack Valenti was in the

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DeBAKEY -- I -- 16

office with me and said, "The President's on the phone right now.
If you'll just wait a moment he'll be ready to see you." And about
that time I got an urgent long-distance call from New York. Jack
Valenti came in, and he said, "There's a long-distance call here
that I think you better take. It's from a doctor in New York, and

it's about the Duke of Windsor." So I went to another room and

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answered the call and talked to the doctor, who told me that the
Duke of Windsor had an aneurism of the aorta and that he wanted to

have him come immediately to Houston for me to operate on him.

Well, in the meantime, while I was on this call, the President

finished nis call. The Jack Valenti said [to the President], "He's
on the telephone. I'l] get him right away." So that's how the
story, I think, got out that I made the President wait on me while
I was on the phone.

Well, then I went in to see him, and of course, he was very
gracious, as he always is when he meets you individually. He told
me what he'd like to have us do. He thought that there was a need

to do a good study of this problem. He knew that I knew more about

what we ought to study, but he said, "The important thing is to

come up with recommendations that will improve our capability of —

“em EN

dealing with the problem of heart disease, cancer and stroke and
provide the people of this country with better means of attacking

these problems." These were large areas, large problems, you

know.

Did he emphasize at al] the political practicality of such
4

M:

H:

DeBAKEY -- I -- 17

Suggestions, or did he say, "You give us the best ideas you can !
get"?
No. He never did that. I don't think he had any of that sort of,
let's say goal, in mind. His primary interest was to see what we
could come up with that would advance our ability and our Capability
of dealing with these problems. In other words, wnat did it take
to do this? And what should be done about it? How are we going
to improve our ability to deal with these very severe, serious
problems that have caused so much death and so much disability and
SO much suffering? You could see he felt this, you know. He made
you feel that he felt this, and he hoped that we would feel the
urgency and the importance of this.
Then he said, “Now, how long do you need to study this?" And I
said, "Well, Hr. President, it's difficult to Say. But I would
Say an important, major study of this kind may take well over a
year." He said, "We don't have much time.” And I said, "We']]
certainly do the best we can." He said, “Well, I am very anxious
to have this in order to incorporate it in my State of the Union
hlessage." This was in April or Hay, something like that, I've
forgotten the exact date, and he wanted us to try to give hima
report by October.
This is “64, isn't it?
Yes.
He wants the report for that '65 Union Message.
Yes. That's right. I realized we were under great pressure. But

as I say, he has that ability to make you work.

FEENIOPA RAR netic nee 2 8

*sexot ‘unsny ‘Aseiqry uosuyor seuleg uopUA ey? UI jeUIBLO UB {0 BUIDINAIAL 10 Apia ipunanast
M:

hf:

DeBAKEY -- I -- 18

Did you agree to try to do this?

I agreed to try to do it, and then I realized that I had really
taken on a pretty big burden. This meant that I was going to have
to give up a great deal of my activities locally and spend a great
time in Washington, which of course I did. We were fortunate in
being able to mobilize some good staff people. Mr. Feldman, who

the President assigned to work with us, was most helpful in getting

us the resources we needed to do the job. We were also fortunate

in having a group of dedicated Commissioners, very able, both lay

people and medical people, experts.

Were the Commissioners selected by you or were they selected... ?
No. They were selected by the President and by his aides, although
we did make some suggestions. I was asked to make some suggestions,
which I did. And I'm sure others were asked to make suggestions.

So that they were selected, however, by the President and his staff.
Well, now, you mentioned that you met and talked with the President
in his office. And then you went out to meet the other Commissioners,
or another group, or what?

Yes. Then he and I went out together and met all] the Commissioners,

and then he talked to them. He gave them the charge and really sort

of inspired then. It was a very inspiring talk, just off the cuff,

the way he's able to do it in a small group.
Did he say essentially the same thing that... ?

Yes, essentially the same thing he said to me, although he elaborated

on it a little bit more.

SIH} 9Yy1 w0ly Adog

"sexes ‘unsny ‘Ales
Vv qr] Yosuyor seuleg UOpUA ey) U! jeUIBUO UE JO BUlDIPa- Jo Aseuqr] jeuoNeRN ‘uorsiaig BUIoIpayy yo AJO}
Rpm emeEE mE ee SF He ewe eS SS SE SS

M:

BM:

MH:

. ship.

DeBAKEY -- I -- 19

Apparently, from what I've been told, the President is very

persuasive in meetings like that.

Yes, very. He really has a much different image, I would say,

when you are in small groups with him than he has on television

when he's giving a speech. He's not only much more persuasive,

but actually gives you a more informal, kind of intimate relation-

I've seen him on television, of course, on many occasions

when he was making a public speech, and it's never been, in my

experience, as effective. In other words, he didn't come through

the television the way he comes through to you when he's in front

of you personally talking to you.
All right. Now you've met the President. You have met your

other fellow Commissioners. He's charged you with your duties.

You have Mr. Feldman to work with. Then what?

Well, then we went to work, and as I say, we were fortunate in
getting a good staff. We had good cooperation.
Did you nave offices there?

Yes.

Is that in the Executive Office Building?

In the Executive Office Building, that's right. We were also
fortunate in getting very good cooperation from the various com-
ponents of the executive branch of the government that relate to
medicine, particularly the National Institutes of Health.

How did you organize this Commission?

We organized, first, the Commissioners into a heart disease section,

SIH ay) wos Adoa

“sexe | ‘unsny ‘Alesqr) Uuosuyor 7 2 e 0 Ato
q! Yor seuleg UopuAT ay? UI jeUiBIZ0 UB yo SUIDIPaY] JO Aseaqr] jeuoHeR ‘UOIsIAIG aUIDIpayy jo A
. “ — eee ~~ 3 4 }
ES om.

DeBAKEY -- I -- 20

a cancer section and a stroke section, and these were headed by

physicians who were experts in the field who happened to be the
Commissioners also. And then we gave each one of those groups a
staff, some staff people, which were loaned to us mostly from tne

NIH and the Public Health Service. Then we also established some

other subcommittees, like education, some of the economics aspects

We obtained consulta-

 

tion from many groups of people who were experts in these various
fields. Tney came and worked with us, not just testified, but
worked. We got testimony also from many groups and from many
organizations, like the Heart Association and the American Medical

Associationand the College of Cardiology, and so on. Once we had
all the facts that we could collect, well, then we sifted these,

analyzed and reviewed them, and drew certain conclusions.

And then wrote your final report?

And wrote the final report.

What do you consider the most significant part of that report?

I would say that probably the most innovative aspect of the report __

masazratomcni

_was the development of the regional medical programs. Now, I was
looking at the clock, and if you'll excuse me just a minute I've
got to make a call before ten-thirty and I'll be right back.

(Interruption).

You were talking about the report and you mentioned that one of the

most significant...

Now, I would say the most innovative aspect is the regional medical

SIH 941 Woly Adoy

"sexo] ‘unsny *Aiaiqi uosu Oo Ato
y suyor souleg uopuA } 84) ul jeurbuo ue jo BUlDIpayy jo Aseiqt 1 feuonery ‘UOIsIAIg SsuloIpayy) A
=
BH Gwe SE HF Se Se eeEFeet ee & & & & EB

MH:

DeBAKEY -- I -- 2]

programs, perhaps the one that has the greatest significance, and
the establishment of centers.

These are the regional?

Yes. Well, this led to--

What's so important about that?

I would say that the main importance lies in the fact that it is a
means, or a kind of a mechanism, by which the latest knowledge and
developments from research in these areas can be brought to the
people more rapidly. So there isn't a backlog and delay in getting
out the knowledge being applied directly to the people, the
patients, who have these problems. In order to implement this
regional medical program concept, it was necessary to have legis-
lation, because the existing legislation would not have permitted
the use of money for this purpose, you see. So that's why the
regional medical program bill has to be developed, written and
established. Now, when the concept first came out in the report
there was a great deal of opposition to it, again on the part of the
medical profession.

Let me ask you one point about this. Did that idea come out of two
or three people in the committee, or one person, or one group?
Where did it come from?

Well, I would say it came out of sort of discussions among different
people, but that it stemmed from the findings, to a certain extent.
I would say that as Chairman I was able to kind of lead the way

for these ideas that began to become crystalized, and to develop

*sexe] ‘unsny ‘Aieiqr] uosuyor Seuleg UOpUAT ey) Ut JeUIBIIO UB yo SUlOIPAYy JO Areuqry jeuOHeN ‘uOIsIAig eUloIPayy yo Aloysiy ou] tuodL Adon
DeBAKEY -- I -- 22

them and finally to put them in a way that was acceptable to the
whole Commission so we got complete unanimity on the part of the

Commission. So I think I had the advantage as Chairman, so to

speak, to initiate and push the concept. That is not to say that

I want to take full credit for the concept. Don't misunderstand

me. But I did have, in a sense, the opportunity and the responsi-

bility. And I have been credited by most of the people with [being]

sort of the architect of the program.
Now you mentioned that you found resistance to this.

Oh yes, there was a great deal of resistance to the concept on the

part of the medical profession, because there was a great deal of

misunderstanding. Their first reading of the report led them, and

I'm sure that this is because they are sensitive to the concept of a

social medicine, socialized medicine, to feel that this was a

program the federal government was going to run. So I had to do a

great deal of cross-country traveling; meeting with groups of the
medical profession of various kinds, state medical organizations
and so on, trying to explain the program, trying to get them to
understand it, trying to get them to realize that this was a

voluntary program, that the government was not going to impose

anything, and so on. We finally over a period of time were able

to persuade some of the leaders of the medical profession and,

secondly, persuade our congressmen. Because many of the congressmen

were pressed pretty hard by their own constituents in the medical

profession.

W Jo Atoysizy oy) Luo) Adon

sexe) ‘unsny ‘Asesqr uosu
4 Yor seuleg UopUAT ay) UF jeUIBUO Ue JO eulSIPaY- jo Aseiqry jeuoneN ‘uoIsiAig eUloIpa
RBH wee eeHeHe eeEagaeHea SF He SF S&S HF EE FE

°o0 = Oo S&S

A

. the bill and so on

DeBAKEY -- I -- 23

I recall] so well going, and I did of course a great deal
of lobbying with the Congress at that time, to see one of
the congressmen from Kentucky who is a physician and practi-
tioner of medicine in a rather small town, has a little
clinic. He's a Republican, and he was a member of the Com-
mittee, or of the Staggers Committee, through which this
bill had to go. Now we were, of course, trying to win
various congressmen on the Committee to vote for this bill.
So I spent some time with him. He was very kind and

gracious to me, and he told me very frankly that the AMA _

representatives had been to see him and had strongly opposed

Entities te arate

Well, by the time we got through the

 

discussion and he began to understand this, he then became
a proponent for the bill. He then tried to persuade the
AMA to go along with this bill, and he was one of the strong
proponents on the Committee.

Who was this? What was his name?

Dr. Tim Lee Carter. He was a very fine, dedicated man.
Did you speak to the AMA, too?

Oh, yes. I spoke to the various groups and tried to
persuade some of the leaders in the AMA to go along

with this. Of course, I know many of them quite well.
This year the AMA gave me their highest honor, the

Distinguished Service Medal. And I've known them, and

 

SIH oy) Wuoly Adoa

"sexey ‘unsny ‘A
1 ‘unsny ‘Aseiqr uosuyor seuieg uopuAq ay) ul teuiBu0 ue jo sutolpayy Jo Areaqry] jeuoney ‘UOISIAIG BULDIPaYy Jo Al07
I've worked with the AA, even though I oppose some of their

olicies. But they know where I stand, and they know I'm honest
y y

about my own convictions in this regard.

Well, we aot the bill passed. But before we get to that point

I think it might be of interest to go back a moment to the point

at which we had completed the report. Because the President in

the meantime was getting very anxious about having this report and

s State of the Union messace.

7

having an opportunity to put it inh

ds

Is this October now?

jong and being pressed pretty hard to

a

Y

om

5, and we were cetting @

inal form. I was spending a great deal of time. When

ce
“h

jt in

wo
am

we finally got the report completed, then tr. Feldman made an

appointment with the President for me to go in to see him and give

him a preliminary verbal report o7 the conciusions. He was very

gracious, and he expressed great appreciation for our efforts

and then asked me what essentially were our findings. I told him

very briefly, and then he said, “well, now, what is this going to

cost us? And I told him what it was going to cost, I've forgotten

the exact figures now, but they were in the report. He said,
"My goodness, we just don't have that kind of money!" And I said,

"4r, President, it's not necessary te have all that money at once.
We've got to build this program up. It's going to take time, and

we don't need all that money to start with. But we're going to

ultimately need that much money or more. This is a very important

area," and so on.

 

"UOISIAIG eUldIpayy Jo Asojsiyy oUy tuo1y Adoy

‘Aseaqi
gr] YosuYyor ssuleg UopUA eu) ut jeulBi40 ue yo suloIpayy jo Aseuqr] jeuoney

“sexe] ‘unsny
pa aR eallUraeaeETlUlUraeEellUraeellUlUraeaeeUmreErlCCaeLlUCUmemehlUCUCelUlCUelUmUeelmUCUeeelCmeeelUeeellCUmee C6

M:

i:

HM:

DeBAKEY -- I -- 25

But he was a realist, you see. He realized that he might
have difficulty getting this through Congress if it's going to cost
too much. If they see a bill that's going to cost them a billion

dollars, they are going to be a lot more reluctant to accept it than

if they see one that's going to cost them, say, ten million dollars.

This I'm sure was what he was thinking of. But he was a very
strong proponent of this, and I'm sure that the only reason that we

got this through was because he was himself dedicated to getting it

through and worked hard to get it through. He made us work, and he

put all of his most important legislative aides to pushing it in

Congress. So I had to work with several of his legislative aides,

met with them on strategy and going to see congressmen and so on.

There was Mr. Larry O'Neill, I guess it was. Isn't that his name?

O'Brien?
O'Brien, I mean. Then there was Mr. Dungan and, of course, Mr.

Feldman, and later, Douglass. Cater.- He had them all working for

us. So I had to work very closely with them to get it through,

because he was very eager to see that this bill was passed.

Were you satisfied with the work of the White House staff? Did

they cooperate with you?

Oh, yes. Oh, they were dedicated people. They were wonderful

people. He had truly wonderful aides, dedicated hard workers,

extremely intelligent, and I was tremendously impressed with those

people.

“Who was it in Congress that gave you the most aid?

SIH 9y) Wo’ Adoxy

"sexe! 'ulIsny ‘Algiqiy uo
4") YosUuYyor sauleg UOpUA au) Ut feUIBUO Ue JO eUloIpaY jo Aiesqry] jeuoneN ‘uoisiAig eulsipayy yo Ag
! | Isla! 194 9)
Mi

DeBAKEY -- I -- 26

Well, I think Senator Hill perhaps gave us the most aid because
ne

he had the power and the following in the Senate, and in Congress

generally, and he was so highly respected. So I would say that he

gave us a tremendous amount of aid. But I must Say that Staggers, .

the Congressman to which the bill went in the House, also gave us a

lot of aid and gave leadership to it. But we had Support from Mr.

Fogarty and from others, you see, in the Congress, who had been

health leaders for many years.

Were you on hand when the bill finally passed and got signed?

Yes. Oh, absolutely. I was on hand when the President signed the
bill and made a beautiful little talk and passed out the pens. I
have one of the-pens,. It was a very happy occasion.

Yes.

And then from then on we worked on other legislative matters, and I
tried to help the President in a number of other different ways and
to urge him on. Of course, he got many other and more urgent
problems, but he never lost his effort and his interest and his
concern with health legislative matters. As I say, in the final
analysis he was able to get through more health legislation than
any other President. In fact, more than all the others combined.
So it was a very gratifying experience.

Did he ever express to you his motivation for this? Ever say, "I

want this health legislation because...

Oh, yes. He not only expressed it to me, he’s expressed it

publicly, and he's expressed it in groups.

Jo Asoysiy oy tuosy Ado

“sexe, ‘unsny ‘Aisiqr Uosuyor Seuleg uopuAy oy) ul jeuBuO UB jo SUfoIPaW jo Areiqr] jeuoHeRy ‘uoIsIAIG eUlDIpayy
pS a:

IM:

A

DeBAKEY -- I -- 27

What was his motivation in this?

I would say he has both a personal motivation and, secondly, a deep
compassionate feeling for people, and particularly for suffering
humanity. I'm sure this comes, to some extent, from his own
background, where he grew up in circumstances which led him to see

and feel and experience some of the poor people's inability to get

good health care. Now, of course, he kney what good health care was.

He had received very high quality health care, and he knew how
important this was. He wanted to see if he could find ways and
means of getting this to all the people, or as many people as you
could possibly do so, realistically. So he was strongly for all of
this. I would say that the only difficulty the President had in
achieving these goals was in the area of funding. And this of
course stems from the limitations on the funding and finally the
pressures that were brougnt to bear for funding in other areas,
other social areas and military areas and so on.

In your lobbying activity was the argument thrown up to you that,
"We need this money for Vietnam, and therefore we can't fund such

a program"? Was that a factor at all?

Well, I'm sure it was a factor, but it was never put that way. I'm
convinced it's a factor, but, you see, the funding must come
through Congress. Congress is responsible for the funding although
the Administration may propose the funding. Now I was always
trying to push the Administration to propose more funding, but in

a sense I suppose tnis has to be balanced in the Administration's

SIH 943 Woly Ado5

*sexay ‘unsny ‘A
4 ‘unsny ‘Aieiqiy uosuyor Seuleg uopuAy ayy Ul jeuiBuO Ue JO BUlDIPaYy yo Aserqry jeuoney ‘UOISIAIG) BULDIpaYy yo Asoy
= a

M:

DeBAKEY -~ I -- 28

mind against the realities of being able to get Congress to go along

with the funding they are requesting. There are always the pressures

from Congress to cut the budget and the pressures from the Bureau

of the Budget to cut the budget. And, of course, these balances in

our government are important, I think. I recognize this.

I remember in my early experience with the Hoover Commission
we were trying to find ways and means by which we could get better
coordination and a better mechanism for coordinating the various

activities of the different branches of the executive branch of

the government relating to medical service. We thought possibly

the Bureau of the Budget might be the place, because legally their

legislation would provide them a basis for doing it. However,
historically their interests have been concerned with maintaining
sort of the limits on the budget and holding down the budget, and

therefore we finally came to the conclusion that the Bureau of the

Budget was not the best place to do this.
Now, I think, philosophically, this is good. I mean these

balances. You need force and counterforce in these areas, and of
course at one time, at least on one occasion, I think I displeased
the President because I made a strong effort in Congress to increase
the budget over the Administration request and put a great deal of

pressure. I'm not sure; I had the impression I displeased him from

one of the aides.

He never said anything to you?

Oh, he never said anything to me personally. But I made it clear

SIH oy) tuoly Ado

"sexe ‘unsny ‘Alesqi uosu
i qn 4YOr Sauleg UopuAT ay) ut jeulBuo ue JO BUlDIPa) jo Aseuqry jeuoney ‘uoisinig euoIpayy yo Ad
. - aie’ aT Oo}
DeBAKEY -- I -- 29

that 1 realized that I was lobbying for more money over the

Administration request. It was not that I thought that I had a

better knowledge of the overall budget, but that I was lobbying

for what I thought were the needs in health. In the final analysis

this is the way our government is set up, you see. In other words,

philosophically our government js set up to respond to pressures

for needs. I was merely playing the game in the political arena

the way everyone plays it who is concerned with these matters,

and indeed the way the President plays it. So I was not doing

anything that the President was not doing or any other person who
is, let's say, dedicated to these goals. These were not selfisn

interests. The President certainly had no selfish interests, nor

have I.
It's that we were working towards these goals, and in his

opinion, I'm saying his not personally, but the Administration, the

budget that they set up was the best budget that they could

achieve. In my opinion it was not, in terms of the health needs.

So that philosophically I think it's important to recognize the

way the government works, the way our government works, and there-

fore to work with it. And lobbying is a part of the way we work,

you see. So you have these forces and counterforces, balances and

counterbalances, and you try to put your force, your effort, your

leverage in where you think it’s needed.

You were seemingly in a somewhat unique position. You were repre-

senting the Administration in, say, the regional medical program

That's what we were doing.

SIH eu) wor, Adoy

"Sexe, ‘unsny ‘Aleiqr uosuyo eB Q sulipay jo Alo
L ‘ur ' fr seu
y 18g UopUAy ey) Ul jeUiBO UB Jo euldipayy yo Ateaqry jeuoneny ‘uorsiA A
ee ! ! ISIAt PIpe) yo Aso}
Oo

te
ee

= a7

=
whe
ae

DeBAKEY -- I -- 30

and lobbying for it, and yet you were not hired by the White House.

No.

And in that nature you were... .

No. As long as I'ma private citizen, am not hired by the White
House or by the Administration, as long as I'm not an employee of

the Administration, I'ma free agent in terms of what I consider as

a private citizen. As long as I was working in the development of
the report, then I couldn't say anything outside. But once we

made our report and we were discharged, then I became a private
citizen, to work on it in any way I saw fit.

Now, do you see this kind of operation, bringing in outside people
like yourself to develop a report, to develon a program and then

to lobby, as an efficient way of getting legislation?

No, I don't. The most efficient way is probably not a democratic
way. The most efficient way is for the government to establish

in its own, let's say administration, full-time individuals to work
on these things. But I'm not sure this is the best way to achievethe goals
for the people; and secondly, in terms of our own political system of.
government, I'm not sure that is the best way either.’ I believe that
having these kinds of private citizens from time to time come in and
take a fresh look at a program and give a report, along with working
with the government, with the staff people and so on, while it may
not be the most efficient way, I think that it could possibly be a
very effective way.

This is a good way of getting new ideas.

SIH ay) tuo4 Adoa

‘sexo] ‘unsny ‘Aleiqr] Uosuyor sauieg UOpUAT aul Ut jeUu;BUO Ue yo aUToIPaly Jo Aeiqr] jeuoney ‘uoisiniq aulsipayy jo Alo}
M:

Ar

DeBAKEY -- I -- 3]

Yes. Very definitely.

Rather than, say, its coming up through the bureaucracy.

Yes, very definitely. You see, it's very difficult, I think,
within a bureaucracy of any kind, whether it's a bureaucracy of a
private organization, private industry or anything else... .

In other words, I think as time goes ona bureaucracy becomes more
and more rigid, and more and more fixed, and possivly more and more
mediocre, because your brilliant minds refuse to fit themselves
into a bureaucracy. Yet you need those minds, the people who
divert from the middle road, so to speak.

From your point of view as tne outsider doing this, were you
frustrated by the experience, or was it satisfying to you?

No. No, it was very satisfying to me. It was frustruating only
in the sense that you wanted to get on with the job, and yet

you needed to coordinate it. When you have to coordinate anything
with a large number of people [it is frustrating], and the larger
the more frustrating because you've got to educate them and orient
them and persuade them and that sort of thing. That's the
inefficiency really.

But to you personally it was worthwhile?

Oh, yes, very, very worthwhile; very satisfying. And I think we
achieved a major breakthrough in one form of delivery of health
care.

And without this approach... ?

I think this is evidenced by the increasing enthusiasm of the

SIH ey) tuo4 Ado

“sexe! ‘unsny ‘Aseiqr] uosuyor Souleg uopuAd ayl ul jeulBuo ue jo SUldIPay Jo Areiqry jeuoneN ‘uoIsiAig auloipayy jo Alon
i
q

M:

M:

M:

M:

DeBAKEY -- I -- 32

medical profession for this program.

Then would you say that this regional medical program has worked
out as you wished it to?

I would say that it has worked out only partially as I would like

to have done it. Two things I think have held it back. One is the
funding and the inability to use funds for certain purposes like
construction. The other has been the time it has taken to orient
and educat the medical profession. This has slowed it down
considerably, but otherwise I am very gratified with it.

Did you become involved in any otner major health legislation in
the way you did with this Commission?

Well, not in this way. I became involved in a number of others.

I touched upon. them,but, you see,in this one I was almost full time
involved. I was the architect for it and so on. But I continued
to be interested in other health legislation and, in a sense, to get
an input into them, and to work with some of the Presidential aides

on some of them and to lobby for them.

Did you ever get involved in the campaigns, the political campaigns
of Lyndon Johnson?

Only partially, to the extent that I contributed personally to the
Democratic Party. But I've done this before, not just to Johnson.
And secondly, to make a statement about the health of the President
to counteract, really, some statements that have been made about his

health.

Was this a specific incident?

StH oy) tuosy Adog

"sexost ‘unsny ‘Aie i
iL ‘unsny 4qr] Uosuyor seuleg UYopuAy ayy ul jeulBuo ue JO BULDIPSIAy jo Aseaqry jeuoneny ‘UOISIAIG BULDIPay Jo Alo}
== = nRhmmHHmemhHme eee eS eee ee

M1:

DeBAKEY -- I -- 33

Yes. There was a statement made which inasense politically

jeopardized him on the basis of what was said about his heart condi-

tions, and I made a statement about that type of heart condition.

Oh, I see.
Not specifically about the President, except that it touched upon

the statement that had been made by the President...

Was this in the '64 campaign?

Yes, and, of course, I came out for him. But I didn't go out and

do a lot of political speeches or anything like that.
Does this impress you with the political significance of the health

of the candidate? It always seems in American history that the

health of a candidate must be proven good.

Yes. Yes, I think so, very definitely.

And so you made a counterbalancing statement to that effect.

That's right, exactly.
Did you have much contact with Mrs. Johnson?

Yes. Quite a bit at the White House, social functions of tne

various kinds to which I was invited. And, of course, I ama

great admirer of irs. Johnson. I was before, and became even a

greater admirer when she was the First Lady. [She is] an extremely

gracious, charming person, who again in smaller groups makes a

much more impressive impression on individuals. She has a charm

that is very natural and very attractive, and you can't help but

be impressed with her intelligence. [She is] an extremely

intelligent lady.

SIH 9y} Luoly Adosy

‘sexo; ‘unsny ‘Aieiqr] uosuyor s
i ' Yor Sauleg UopuA au) Ul feulBio ue jo aulsipayy yo Ajesqr] jeuoney ‘uoisinig attoipayy yo A
; ! ISIAt a JO A1OY
ee ee ee ee ee ee ee ee

MM:

DeBAKEY -- I -- 34

I've been told that if you really wanted to know how the Johnson
Administration worked you should talk to some of the women. Among
the women mentioned were Mrs. Johnson and Mary Lasker.

Oh, yes, very definitely.

Does this make sense to you?

Oh, yes. I think you have to talk to both of them. They're both
extremely intelligent and dedicated people. You quickly get this
sense of dedication.

Well, the point was that these women had persuasive influence on
tne President--

That's right. Now, I'm sure they did.

~-that men would not haye.

That's right. I don't think there's any doubt about it. They had
on me. Yes, they were. . Whenever Mrs. Lasker would call me to ask
me to do certain things, I would drop what I was doing to do it.
That's how persuasive they were.

How, let me wind this up with an open-ended question. We've been
talking about an hour and a half now.

Yes, I think... .

Is there any other area that I should ask you about, say, the next
time, or anything else we didn't get into?

Yes, there are. What I'd like to do now is to get in touch with
you again after I have had an opportunity to sort of organize

the papers I'm collecting and review certain aspects of it. I'1]

jot down some notes, and then I'll be in touch with you. We'll

 

SIH Oty Wioly Adoxa

"Sexe ‘unsny ‘Aseiqr] uosuyor Seuleg uopuAy out UI jeUIBLO Ue yo SULDIPaY) jo Asesqry jeucney ‘uoisiaiq aUldipayy yo Aso}
?

DeBAKEY -- J] -- 35

have another session when it's convenient for you to come.

M: Good. Well, thank you for your time.

D: Yes. Fine.

[End of Tape 1 of 1 and Interview I]

SIH 9y) Luo’ Adon

“sexe ‘unsny ‘Aseiqr] Uosuyor seuleg UopuAy ay? ul yeuBLO UB Jo SUulIpaY- jo Aieaqr] jeuoneN ‘uoIsIAIQ eULDIPayy yo A104
January 26, 1990

—) Lindon Baines johnson Library

2313 Red River Street Austin. Texas ~S~O5

   
 

™~

—

INTERLIBRARY LOAN POLICIES AND PROCEDURES

Materials Loaned: The Johnson Library loans oral history
transcripts, finding aids, duplicates of task force reports,
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previously loaned items.

No

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if

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obtain the transcript.

yw LEADER GEV GEER Guese isiter tances |

‘UOISIAIG BUlDIPAY JO AsolsiyYy oui tuosy Ado

Asesqr] uosuyor seuieg UOpUAT 24} Ut feUIBUO UB yo SUuloIPaYW jo Aiesqr] peuonen

“sexay ‘unsny
ew DO HE

LBJ LIBRARY ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

The LBJ Library Oral History Collection is composed of interviews conducted for the

J Library under four separate projects: those done under the auspices of the National
Archives: the White House during the Johnson Administration; the University of Texas Oral
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repeated when terms of access to their various interviews vary. Otherwise, the name of an
terviewee is listed cnce even though he or she may have given more than one interview.

Interviews which have been completed and accessioned into the Library's collection

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tr
Please note that special oral history interviews in the Library's custody are not

included on this list. These special interviews include those recorded by researchers, by
eral departments preparing administrative histories, and interviews conducted by other

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Foo: Key:

} available for research
AMOR - available for research; retains copyright privilegess

F - available for research although all or part of transcript is restricteds

A/R/T - tape recording is restricteds
fu - Inter-Library Loan prohibited; reading room access only

2 - restricted for lifetime or until specified datex

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t See individual deed for specific terms of access and time restrictions

Some of the oral history transcripts contain inaccuracies and typographical errors.

k
Pfsore of, who intend to rely on an excerpt or quotation from an interview are urged to
verify the passage on the tape recording, when available.

*Aresaqry uosuyor seule
r leg WOpUAT at) U) yeurBUO Ue JO BulsIpeyy jo Aserqry] jeuonen *UOISIAIG BULDIPaY Jo Aloisi ey? ody Adog
. we awe . 9°

‘sexo ‘unsny
Abel, Elie (A
Oe I. W. (A
beli, Bess (A)
Abell, Tyler
ram, Morris
Eas: Gardner (A/CR)
dair, E. Ross (A)
dams, Edie (A
g= Samuel A. (A)
ams, Samuel A.
Adelman, Pat
ler, James A.
ken, George D. ([{
Aikman, Lonnelle {
fess Carl B. (A

)
)

A)
A)
)
bright, Jack
den, Vernon R. (A)
eman, Miguel
ferences Clifford (A)
ford, Dorothy P. (A) [UT w/Starcke]
Alford, Dorothy P. [LBJ}
len, George
len, Ivan (A)
Allen, Robert S. (A)
lison, Mamie
feos J. Lindsay, Jr. (A)
sop, Joseph (R}
Alsop, Stewart J. (A)
iste Clinton P. (A)
derson, Eugenie M. (R/WP-lifetime)
Anderson, M. J.
derson, Robert B. (A)
evine, David W. (A)
Anton, James (A)

hmore, Harry (A)
inall, Wayne (A)

cock, John E. ({A)
helder, Toinette (A)
Baird, Charles Fitz (A)
er, Donald M. (A)
ee John A. (A) [UT]
Baker, John A. (A) [LBJ]
er, Robert G. "Bobby" [LBJ]
- Edgar L. (A)
1, George (A)
Ball, Robert M. (A)
dwell, Malcolm (A)
3mrnes, Ben (A)
Barr, Joseph M. (A)
TT Joseph W. (A) [UT]

Oral History Interviews - Page 2

Barr, Joseph W. {LBJ]
Barrow, Allen E. (A)

Bartlett, Charles L. (A)
Bartlett, Vide G. (Mrs. Bob) (A}
Baskin, Robert {A)

Bator, Francis

Battle, Lucius D. (A) [UT]
Battle, Lucius D. [LBJ]
Bayh, Birch (A/CR-12/19/95)
Baz Manero, Javier (A)

Bean, Woodrow

Beckworth, Lindley (A)

Beebe, Leo C. (A/CR)

Beech, Keyes (A)

Behringer, Marjorie

Beirne, Joseph A. (A)

Belen, Frederick C. (A)
BeLieu, Kenneth E.

Bell, David E. (A/CR)

Bell, Jack

Bellmcn, Henry (A)

Benchley, Peter B. (A)
Bennett, Ivan L., Jr. (A)
Bennett, Robert L. (A)
Bentsen, Beryl A. (Mrs. Lloyd) (A)
Bentsen, Lloyd (A)

Bernbaum, Maurice M. (A)
Bernhard, Berl

Berry, Levette J. Joe (A)
Berry, Theodore M.,

Bertsch, Howard (A)

Bibolet, Roland (A)

Billings, William F. (A)
Bird, H. V. "Dick" (A}
Birdwell, Sherman ({A) [UT]
Birdwell, Sherman (A) [Goldman]
Birdwell, Sherman (A) [LBJ]
Birkhead, Kenneth M. (A)
Black, David S. (A)

Black, Eugene R. (R/WP-lifetime})
Black, Hugo

Black, John W. (A)

Blackburn, William M. (A)
Blackman, Herbert N. (A)
Blackman, Merrell (A)

Blee, Myron B. (A)

Blough, Roger M. (A)
Blundell, James H. (A)
Boatner, Charles K. (A) [UT]
Boatner, Charles K. {A) [LBJ]
Boggs, Hale (A)

Boggs, Lindy

SIH 94} wosy Adon

‘sexe ‘unsny ‘Ajes
1 ‘unsny qr] Uosuyor seuleg UuopUuAT 8y) UY JeulBUO Ue jo aDtpayy jo Asesqry jeuoney ‘UDISIAIG BUlDIPeyy yo AsO}
Bohlen, Charles E. (A)
lling, Richard (A)
lton, Donnelly P.

Bolton, Paul (A)
nanno, Phyllis 0.

Feist, Hyman

ooker, Ruth
rtz, Nelson M. (A)

f=. Rodney L. (A)
wdler, William

Bowles, Chester (A)
yd, Alan S. (A)
yd, Roland

Braestrup, Peter
andt, Willy

Fesek. T. Edward
renner, Edward John (A)
idwell, Lowell {A}

fio. Percy (A)
isbin, Albert (A) [NYA group]

Brisbin, Albert (A) [LBJ]
ooks, Jack {A)

Boos. Marietta Moody [UT]
Brooks, Marietta Moody [LBJ]
ooks, Max

[-:. Edmund G. (
own, George R. (

Brown, George R. { {UT]
own, George R. { [LB]
own, H. S. “Hank” (A)

Brown, Harold (A)
own, Lester R. (A)

a Richard (A)

Brown, Russell M. (A)
ownstein, Phillip N. {(A)

ce, David K. E. (A)
luck, Oliver N. ({A) [w/Sam Fore]
Bruno, Joseph
ant, Ashbrook P.
ant, C. Farris (A)
Brzezinski, Zbigniew (A)
hanan, W. Evans (A)
P Raymond E. (A)
u

ffum, William

ord, Anthony
if Diem

lion, J. Waddy
Bullock, Arthur V.

dy, McGeorge

dy, William P. (A)
Bunker, Ellsworth

rer Gordon (A)

A)
A) [Bolton]
A)
A)

Oral History Interviews - Page 3

Burkley, George G. (A)
Burleson, Omar ({A)
Burney, Cecil E. (A)
Busby, Horace

Buscher, Jack

Bush, Dorothy B. (A)
Byers, Bo (A)

Cabot, John M. (A)
Cahn, Edgar & Jean C.

Cain, James (A)

Califano, Joseph A. [UT]
Califano, Joseph A. [LBJ]
Calvert, Robert W. ({A)

Camp, William B. ({A)

Cannon, William B. (A)
Capron, William M.

Carey, William D.

Carpenter, Elizabeth (A/CR)
Carpenter, Leslie (A/CR}
Carrillo Flores, Antonio ({A)
Carter, Clifton C. (R/WP-9-91}
Carter, Hodding, Jr. (A)
Carter, Joseph H. (A)
Carter, Lisie C.

Carter, Margaret (Mrs. Jack) (A)
Carver, George

Case, Clifford P. (A/CR)
Casparis, John Brooks (A)
Castro, Nash (A/R)s

Castro, Raul

Cater, S. Douglass (A) [UT]
Cater, $. Douglass {UT}
Cater, &. Douglass [LBIJ]
Cavanagh, Jerome P. (A)
Celebrezze, Anthony J. (A)
Celler, Emanuel (A)
Chancellor, John

Chapman, Oscar L. (A)
Chartener, William H. (A)
Chiarodo, Marie Fehmer [UT]
Chiarodo, Marie Fehmer [LBJ]
Christian, George E. (A)
Christopher, Warren M. (A)
Chudars, James E. (A)
Church, Frank (A)

Cikins, Warren (A)

Clapp, Norman M. (A)

Clark, Ramsey (A)

Clark, Tom C. (A)

Clements, Earle C. (A)

SIH] oY) tuoly Adory

“sexal ‘unsny ‘Aigiqr uo
gt] YosUYor sauieg UOpUAy ayy ul jeufBH0 Ue yo aulsIpayy yo Alerqr] JEUONEN ‘UOISIAIG aulsIpayy yo Aso}
Cleveland, Harlan (A/CR)
iff, Edward P. (A)}
ifford, Clark {(A/CR)
Cline, Ray S. (A)
chran, Jacqueline
Bonten. Thomas
Cochrane, William
ffey, Matthew B. (A/R)
f: Manuel
hen, Sheldon S. (R/WP/CR-lifetime} [UT]
Cohen, Sheldon S. (R/WP/CR-lifetime) [LBJ]
hen, Wilbur J. (A/CR)
lby, William E. {A)
Cole, W. Sterling (A)
leman, James P. (A)
llier, Everett
Collins, LeRoy (A)
lmer, William M. (A)
fee: Lucien
CTnnally, John B.
Connell, William J. (A)
Geer. John T.
mstantine, Jay
Conway, Jack T. (A)
ok, Donald C. (A) [UT]
a: Donald C. (A/R)*x [LBJ]
Cooper, Chester L. (A)
oper, Ellen Taylor (A) [w/Fischesser]
ee John Sherman
oper, R. Conrad (A)
Corcoran, Thomas G.
rson, John J. (A)
tello, William H. (A/CR)*
Cox, Ava Johnson
fts, Edward C. (A/CR)
ider, Ben (A)
Crider, Otto (R)
ckett, William J. (A) [UT]
ppevcee William J. (A) [LBJ]
nin, Donald J.
Crook, William H.
oker, John, Jr.
oker, John, Sr. (A/R)
Cross, James U. (A) [UT]
ss, James U. (A) [LBJ]
eo, Ernest (A)
Curry, Jesse E. (A)
(A

rtis, Carl T. }
ler, Jay
ler, Lloyd N. (A)

Oral History Interviews - Page 4

Dailey, John T.

Dale, William B. (A)

Daniel, Price (A)

Daniels, Jonathan (A)

Darden, William H. (A/CR)

Darden, William H.

Davidson, Phillip B. (R)

Davis, George R. (A)

Davis, James (A)

Davis, John J. (A)

Davis, Ross D. (A)

Davis, Sid

Davis, W. True (

Dean, Alan L. (A
(

A

)
Dean, Homer E. R-lifetime)
Deason, Willard (A) [Goldman]
Deason, Willard (A) [NYA Group]
Deason, Willard (A) [UT]
Deason, Willard (A)} [LBJ]
Deason, Willard [LBJ]
Deason, Willard and Jeanne
DeBakey, Michael E. (A)
Deike, Frederick J. (A)
Delafield, Marjorie (A}

Dellinger, David

Deming, Frederick L. (A)

Denius, Frank (A)

DePuy, William

Desautels, Claude J. (A)

Desobry, William R.

Dickerson, Nancy (A
J

)
Diggs, Charles C., Jr. (A)
Dillon, C. Douglas (A)
Dirksen, Everett (A) [UT]
Dirksen, Everett (A) [White]

DiSalle, Michael V. (A)
Dixie, Chris (A)

Dominy, Floyd E. (A)

Donley, Owen

Donnelley, Dixon {A)
Dorbandt, Mrs. Seth W.
Dougherty, Dudley T. (A) [UT]
Dougherty, Dudley T. (A) [LBJ]
Douglas, Helen Gahagan (A)
Douglas, Paul H. (A)

Doyle, C. E. "Curley"
Dubinsky, David (A)

Duggan, Ervin

Dungan, Ralph A. (A/R)#
Dunlap, Thomas J. (A)

Dunn, John Michael (A)
Durbrow, Elbridge (A)

 

“sexo! ‘unsny ‘Aseiqry) uosuuo
ts] Yor Seuleg UopUAT ay? UI jeulBuO Ue JO BUlDIPaY yo Aseiqry jeuonery ‘uoIsiAig suldipay jo Asojsiy ay) Wwoly Adoa
i Clifford & Virginia ({(A)

rr, Virginia (A)
tton, Frederick G. (A)

ley, L. T. "Tex" (A)

tland, James 0. (A)
Eckhardt, Nadine Brammer

ler, A. Ross (A)
Bec: Georgia Cammack (A)
Edwards, India (A)
edwards, Louise Casparis {A)
Pees Milton S. (R/WP-5/1995)
mins, James A., Jr. (A)
Zllender, Allen J. (A)
Bere, Buford (A)
sgpon, Roy
ilstad, Leonard M. (A)
‘weelhard, Jane
i ie Joseph

lish, Virginia Wilke {A}
tnthoven, Alain C. (A)
i s, Courtney A. (A)
'@@rs, Charles (A)
well, Julian J. (A)

+

“
‘
7

‘arley, James A. (A)
“@emer, James (A)
} John Henry
troy, Walter
‘awcett, Truman and Wilma G. (A)
ld, John G.
an, Myer
‘ann, Dan (A)
son, Tom C.
h, Robert
inletter, Thomas K. {A)
icchesser, Elaine ({(A)
a Adrian S. {(A/CR)
Pener, 0. C. (A)
itt, Albert B. (A)
Pes. Harold
ing, Joe W., II (A)
letcher, Thomas W. (A)
t, Frederick W.
1 , John P.
ore, Sam, Jr. (A)
ore, Mrs. Sam, Jr. (A)
: Michael V. (A)
as, Abe (A)
orsythe, Patria

Oral History Interviews - Page 5

Foster, John S., Jr. (A/R/T)
Fountain, Lawrence H. (A)
Fowler, Henry H. (A/CR) [UT]
Fowler, Henry H. [LBJ]
Fox, Lawrence (A)

Fox, Sanford L. ({A)

Francis, Sharon (A)

Frankel, Charles (A)

Frankel, Max (R/WP/CR-lifetime)
Frantz, Joe B.

Freeman, Orville (A) [UT]
Freeman, Orville [LBJ]
Friday, William Clyde

Fried, Edward R. (A)

Friedman, Irving S.

Fulcher, Gordon ({A)

Furness, Betty (See Midgely, Betty)

Gaither, James C. (A) [UT]
Gaither, James C. (A) [LBJ]
Galloway, Eilene M. (A)
Gammon, Samuel
Garcia, Daniel C., Sr
Garcia, Hector T. (A)
Gardner, John W. (A)

Garza, Reynaldo G. (A)

Gaud, William S. (A)

Gehrig, Leo

Geisinger, Mike

Gelb, Leslie Howard (A)

Germany, Eugene B. (A)

Gideon, Olga Bredt

Gideon, W. Sim (A) [UT]

Gideon, W. Sim (A) [Bolton]
Gilpatric, Roswell (A)

Gilpatrick, Donald S. (A)

Ginsburg, David

Ginsburgh, Robert N.

Glick, Mrs. Tommy W. (A)

Godfrey, Horace D. (A)

Goldberg, Arthur J. (A)

Goldberg, Irving L. [UT]

Goldberg, Irving L. [LBJ]

Golden, John M.

Goldfarb, Ronald L. (A)
Goldschmidt, Arthur & Elizabeth (A)
Goldschmidt, Elizabeth Wickenden (A)
Goldstein, E. Ernest (A) [UT]
Goldstein, E. Ernest [LBJ]
Goldwater, Barry

Gonella, Ashton (A) [UT]

SIH 9y} tu0sy Adoa

“Sexo ‘unsny ‘Ales
Vv qr] Uosuyor seuleg UopuA 84) Ul JeuIBLO UB Jo BUlDIpaYy jo Aseiqry jeuoney ‘uoisiaig autoipeyy yo A10}
Gonella, Ashton [LBG
odpaster, Andrew J. (A)
rdon, Helene Lindow (A)

Gordon, Kermit {A)
tham, William

Bina. Mike

Gordon, Lincoln (A)

fc, Edward (A)

]

ulding, Phil G. (A)
aef, Bertha Allman (A)
Graham, Callan (A)
aham, Daniel 0. (A)
raham, Elmer (A)
Graham, Katharine (A)
een, Edith (A/R/T)
Beene E. M. (A)
reigg, Stanley L.
iffin, Robert P. ({A)
ess, Liewellyn B., Sr. (A)
oce, Josh H.
Gronouski, John A., III
osvenor, Melville B. ({(A)
ening, Ernest (A)
Guajardo, Miguel
lick, James W. (A)
§::, William L. (A)
uthrie, Eugene (A)

i. Charles M. (A)

Hackett, David L.

kler, Loyd (A)

dad, William
Hagerty, James C. (A)

erty, James J.

aby, Najeeb E. (A)

berstam, David
Hall, Walter G. (A)
fe Charles A. (A)
iM perin, Samuel (A)
Jamilton, Ann Oppenheimer (A)
ied, Lloyd N. (A/R/CR/ILL)
. John A. (A)
Jannah, Mack H., Jr. (A)
J@gnay, Allen B.
i@fbin, Estelle ({(A)
jafdeman, D. B. (A) [UT]
Jardeman, D. B. (A) [LBJ]
igfdesty, Robert (A)
{l@™ding, Bertrand M. (A)
larkins, Paul D. (A)
Tr John ({A)

Oral History Interviews - Pace 6

Harlow, Bryce (A/R-2000:CR)«
Harriman, W. Averell (A)
Harris, Oren (A)

Harris, Patricia Roberts (A/CR}
Karte, Houston (A/R)s
Hartzog, George B., Jr. (A)
Harzke, Albert C. (A)
Haseiton, Mary Michelson
Hass, Ewing

Hatcher, Mrs. Jessie (A)
Hayden, Carl (A)

Hayes, Frederick 0.

Hays, Brooks (A)

Hays, Wayne L. (A)
Hazlewood, Calvin (A)

Heath, W. W. (A)

Hebert, F. Edward (A)
Hechinger, John W. (A)
Height, Dorothy

Heineman, Ben W. (A)
Heller, Walter W. A/R/WP/CR}«
Helms, Richard M. A) [UT]

A) [LBJ]

(
(
Helms, Richard M. (
Henry, Aaron E. (A)
Herrera, Felipe (A)
Herring, Charles (A) [UT]

Herring, Charles (A) [Bolton]
Hershey, Lewis B. (A)

Hesburgh, Theodore ({A)

Hickenlooper, Bourke B. (A)

Hickman, Betty Cason (A/R)
Higginbotham, Leon ({(A)

Hight, Jack

Hill, Lister (A)

Hilsman, Roger (A)

Hirshberg, Henry (A)

Hobby, Mrs. Oveta Culp

Hodges, Luther H., Sr. (A)

Hoffman, Anna Rosenberg (A) [UT]
Hoffman, Anna Rosenberg (A) [LBJ]
Hoffman, Paul (A/CR)

Holcomb, Luther (A)

Holleman, Jerry (A)

Holton, John

Hope, John, II

Hopkins, Welly K. (A) [UT]

Hopkins, Welly K. (A) [Goldman]
Hopkins, Welly K. & Alice (A) [LBJ]
Hopkins, William J. (A)

Hopper, Ardis C. (A)

Hornaday, Walter C. (A)

Horne, John E. (A)

‘sexes ‘unsny ‘Ailes
1 ‘unsny q!1 uosuyor souleg uopuAq au) uf j2uBO Ue jo aulDipayy jo Aipiqry euoney ‘uorsiaig sulipay jo Asoysiyy oy1 tuoly Adon
tnig, Donald F. (A)
rowitz, Harold W. (A)
twitz, Solis (A)
Howard, Jack (A)
ee. James M. "Mike"
we, Harold, II (A)
Howsam, Earl
yt, Palmer
Pee Douglass H. (A)
ughes, Allie T. & Lorena D. (A)
ghes, Inez
jes Phillip S. (A)
ghes, Richard J. & Betty (A)
Hughes, Sarah T. (A)
itt, Ralph K. [UT]
oe Ralph K. [LBJ]
Hummel, Don {A)
eorcey Hubert (A) [UT]

—_— as

phrey, Hubert (A) [LBJ]
phrey, H. H., IIil
Huntley, Chet R. (A)
rd, Henriette Wyeth (A)
rd, Peter (A)
Hurst, J. Willis [UT]

st, J. Willis [LBJ]
tchinson, Everett (A/CR)

paves, Paul R. (R/WP-lifetime)
ard, Frank N. (A)
Ingram, Janet Wofford

, Dwight A. (A)

uye, Daniel K. (A)

B::0:, Henry M. {A)
ackson, Robert M. (A)
Jackson, William A.
fp, William F.
obsen, Jake (A) [UT]
Jacobsen, Jake [LBZ]
Pfovsen. Dorothy H. (R/WP/CR-9/1/88)
obson, George
Jaeggli, Victor
Jages, W. Ervin "Red" (A)
pees, Ebba (Mrs. Alvin J.) (A)
Javits, Jacob
Jaworski, Leon (A)
pes Herbert (A/CR)
J@kins, Walter (A/CR) [UT]
Jenkins, Walter {A/CR) [LBJ]
ro Alfred T. "Boody" (A)

Oral History Interviews - Page 7

Johnson, Claudia Taylor
Johnson, Elizabeth

Johnson, Lester (A)

Johnson, Luci Baines

Johnson, Nicholas (A/CR)
Johnson, Paul B., Jr. (A)
Johnson, Sam Houston

Johnson, U. Alexis (A)

Johnson, W. Thomas [UT]
Johnson, W. Thomas {LBJ]
Johnston, Dean

Jones, Bess

Jones, Boisfeuillet

Jones, Curran L. "Jack" (A/CR)
Jones, Herman

Jones, James R.

Jones, John T., Jr. (A)

Jones, John Wesley (A) [Truman Library]
Jones, Luther E., Jr. (A) [UT]
Jones, Luther E., Jr. (A) [LBJ]
Jones, Marvin (A/CR)

Jones, Roger W. (A)

Jordan, Barbara (A)

Jordan, Robert E., III (A/R/WP/CR)«
Jordan, William H., Jr. (A)
Jorden, William J. (A) [UT]
Jorden, William J. [LBJ]
Joseph, Edward (A) [UT]
Joseph, Edward (A) [LBJ]

Judd, Walter

Just, Ward (A/R/ILL«)

Karnow, Stanley
Katzenbach, Nicholas deB. (A)
Keach, Carroll (A) [UT]
Keach, Carroll {A) [LBJ]}
Keating, Val M. {A)

Keenan, Joseph D. (A)

Keeney, Barnaby C. (A)

Keith, A. M. "Sandy"

Kellam, Claud (A)

Kellam, Jesse {A} [Goldman]
Kellam, Jesse (A) [UT]
Kelly, William P. (A/CR)
Kennedy, Edward M. (R/WP-3/24/91)
Kennedy, Mylton L. ({A)
Kennedy, Vann

Keppel, Francis {A)

Kerner, Otto (A)

Kerr, Clark (A)

Kerwin, Walter T.

“Sexel ‘unsny ‘Aseiqr uosuyor s
1 Yor SaulNg UOpUA. ou) Ut jeUBLIO Ue JO BUlDIPEYW Jo Aseiqr] jeuoNneN ‘UuoIsiAiq Suldipayy yo Asoysiyy oy) Luly Adog
Ketchum, James R.
yserling, Leon (A)
yserling, Mary D. (A)
Killam, Radcliffe
Blpatrick, Carroll {A) [UT]
Pec. Carroll [LBJ]
mch, Sam, Sr. {A}
Kintner, Robert (A/CR)
berg, Robert J., Jr. {A)
in, Lawrence
Knappstein, Heinrich
tt, Lawson B., dr. (A/R)
wland, William
Knowlton, William A.
niger, John Fritz (A)
fF Robert W.
th, Fred (A)
Kramer, Herbert J. (A)
‘t: Arthur (R/WP;CR-lifetime)
imer, William D.
Krock, Arthur (A/CR)

: a , Thomas H.

d, Jonathan F.

1 Joseph

L@mpman, Robert J. {A}

Lang, A. Scheffer (A)

ses: Edward
in, Raymond H. (A)

Lasker, Mary (R/WP/CR/ILL-2000) [UT]
ker, Mary (R/WP/CR/111-2000) [LBJ]
seter, Eugenia Boehringer (A)

Lathram, L. Wade

Latimer, Gene (A) [UT]

ip Gene (A) [LBJ]

Laurel, Oscar Manual {A}

Lawson, Marjorie

Lady, John M. (A)

L@®, Philip R. (A)

Lee, Ray (A) [Bolton]

Lam, Ray {A) [LBJ]

Lan, Frank W.

Leinsdorf, Erich (A)

Le@jtao da Cunha, Vasco

. Curtis (A)

Lu itzer, Lyman (A)

Leonard, Kittie Clyde (A/R/T)

oe. Robert A. (A)

“\W@@inson, Larry

newis, Robert G. (A)

| i William (A) [w/M. C. Smith]

Oral History Interviews - Page 8

Lilienthal, David E. {A)
Lincoln, Gould (A) [UT]
Lincoln, Gould (A) [Truman Library]
Lindig, Otto (A)
Lindow, Helene (See Gordon, Helene)
Linowitz, Sol M. (A)

Lipsen, Charles B. {A)

Little, C. P. (A) [NYA]
Little, C. P. (A) [LBJ]
Livingston, William

Locke, Eugene M. (A)

Loney, Kathryn Deadrich (A)
Long, Emma (Mrs. Stuart Long)
Long, R. J. "Bob" (A/R)

Long, Russell (A/CR}

Long, Stuart M. (A)

Looney, J. C. (A)

Louchheim, Kathleen C. (A}
Lovell, James A. (A)

Low, Sam D. W. (A)

Lucey, Robert E. (A)

Ludeman, Elizabeth

Luft, John N. (A)

Lyle, John E., Jr. {A)

McAllister, Gerald N. (A)

McArthur, George

McCarthy, Eugene

McCarthy, George

McCarthy, John J.

McClendon, Sarah (A)

McCloskey, Robert J.

McCloy, John J. (A)

McCone, John (A)

McConnell, John P. (A)

McCormack, John W. (A)

McCulloch, Frank (A) [LBJ]

McCulloch, Frank {LBJ]

McCully, John (A)

McDermott, Eugene & Margaret Milam

McDowell, Bart ({(A)}

McElroy, Cameron & Lucille (A)

McFarland, Ernest W. (A)

McGee, Gale (A)

McGehee, Ralph W.

McGhee, George C. (A)

McGiffert, David E.

McGillicuddy, Daniel F., Jr.

McGovern, George S. (A)

McHugh, Vicky & Simon (See also Murphy,
Vicki McCammon)

“SEXO] ‘UNSNY ‘Asesqr UosuYyO 3
! a] Yor seuleg UopUAy au Ul feulBuo ue jo auloipayy jo Aseiqry jeuonen ‘uorsiaiq SUldIPaYW yo Aloysity ayy LWO1y Ado
Kee, William F. (A)

Knight, Feliz (A)

Lean, William Hunter (A)
McMahon, Robert F.

Namara, Robert S.

Neil, Marshall (A)
McPherson, Harry (A) [UT]
ffecsce" Harry [LBJ]

(R-2000)

Quade, Lawrence (A)
CWilliams, Roy L. (A)

| William Dayton (A)
Macomber, William B., Jr. (A)
cy, John W., Jr. (A) [UT]
i John W., Jr. (A) [LBJ]
Maddox, Lester (A)
gnuson, Warren (A)
fi: Charles M. (A/CR)
hon, George (A)
Mahoney, Fiorence
lechek, Jewei (See Scott, Jewel Malechek)
atos, Mike (A)
Mankiewicz, Frank F. (A)
, Dave
, Gerald C., Sr. & Jr. (A)
Mann, Thomas C. (A)
cus, Stanley {(A/CR)
fees Murrey
tkman, Sherwin J. (A)
Marks, Leonard (A) [UT]
ks, Leonard (A) [LBJ]
land, Sidney P. (A)
Marshall, Burke ({A)
shall, Cecille Harrison (A/CR)
Fon, Thurgood (A)
arston, Robert Q. (A)
tens, Clarence C.
if: Crawford (A)
tin, John Bartlow ({(A)
Martin, Lovis (A) [UT]
tin, Louis [LBJ]
tin, Ruby G. (A)
Martin, William McChesney
tini, Steve (A)
tz, Clyde 0. (A)
Shman, Joe ({A)
Mattson, Everett (A)
ees Alwyn "Matty" (A)
, Edgar
May, Ernest (A)

tT Timothy (A)

Oral History Interviews - Page 9

Mayborn, Frank W.

Mayer, Margaret {(A) [LBJ]
Mayer, Margaret [LBJ]
Mayhew, Lewis

Means, Marianne [UT]
Means, Marianne {LBI]

Meany, George (A)

Mehren, George L. (A)
Melasky, Harris

Melinger, Alfred (A)

Meloy, Guy S.

Menzies, Sir Robert (A)
Merrick, Samuel V. (A)
Mesta, Perle (A)

Midgley, Betty Furness (A)
Millenson, Roy

Miller, Dale & Virginia "Scooter" (A) [UT]
Miller, Dale & Virginia "Scooter" fLBJ]
Miller, Emma Guffy (A)
Miller, George P. (A)
Miller, Nell Colgin (A)
Miller, Virginia "Scooter" [LBJ]
Miller, William M. "Fishbait"™ (A)
Mills, Tom

Mills, Wilbur (A) [UT]
Mills, Wilbur [LBJ}
Minow, Newton (A)

Mitchell, Clarence (A)
Mitchell, Mrs. J. M.

Monahan, John L. (A)
Monroney, A. S. "Mike" (A)
Montague, Robert M.
Montgomery, Robert H. (A)
Mooney, Booth (A) [UT]
Mooney, Booth (A) [LBJ]
Moore, Powell (A)

Moore, Wyatt

Moorer, Thomas H. {A) [UT]
Moorer, Thomas H. (A) [LBJ]
Morehead, Richard

Moreland, Ralph (A)

Morris, Charles A. (A)
Morton, Thruston (A)

Moss, Frank E. {A)

Moursund, A. W.

Mullen, Mark T.

Mullen, Robert

Mundt, Karl E. (A)

Murphey, Robert W. (A)
Murphy, Charles S. ({A)
Murphy, Patrick V. (A)
phy, Vicki McCammon {LBJ] (See also
McHugh, Vicki and Simon)

Murray, Hyde

L.. James M., Jr. (A)
Nachlin, Hyde
“ava, William
Wsh, James P.
Yeel, Spurgeon H., Jr.

son, Richard H. ({A)

, David G. (A)
Yeustadt, Richard Elliott (A)
Wayman, Ralph (A)
Pe: Dorothy J. (A) [UT]
(ethols, Dorothy J. (A) [LBJ]
Yimetz, Matthew (A/CR)
Wize, Paul Henry (R/WP/CR-lifetime)
jl, James
jolting, Frederick (A)

{gyak, Robert
Pie, Reed 6.

frcorter. Don ({(A)
“Brien, Lawrence F.
Connell, Joseph J., Jr. (A)
ieee Lawrence J.
)@onnell, Kenneth (A/R/CR)
kun, Arthur M. {A)
giver, Covey T. (A/CR)
a Robert {A/CR)
son, Marie Lindau
ltorf, Frank "Posh" (A)
if: Jacqueline Kennedy (A/R)«*
ill, Thomas P. "Tip" (A)}
wen, Henry D. (A)
s, Wroe
gs, Nathaniel (A)

4. Frank, Jr. (A)
acnios, Hal

aine, Thomas 0. (A)
er, Bruce
er, Joseph, II (A)
anzer, Fred
er, Edith H. (A)
er, Evan J.
arnis, Mollie (A)

agr, Archer
Bes. J. R. (A)

Oral History Interviews - Page 10

Partridge, Anthony
Patman, Wright {(A) [UT]
Patman, Wright (A) [LBJ]
Patterson, Eugene C. (A/CR)
Pattillo, James Cato (A)

Paul, Norman S. (A)

Pauley, Edwin W. (A)

Payne, Harvey 0. (A)

Pazianos, George

Peabody, Endicott (A/CR)
Pearson, Drew (A)

Pechman, Joseph A. (A)

Peden, Katherine Graham (A)
Pell, Claiborne ({A)

Perkins, Carl D. (A)

Perrin, C. Robert (A)

Perry, Arthur C.

Peterson, Esther (A) [UT]
Peterson, Esther (A) [LBJ]
Pettigrew, Thomas

Phillips, Rufus

Phillips, William G. (A)
Phinney, Carl L. (A)

Phinney, Robert L. (A) [Bolton]
Phinney, Robert L. (A) [LBJ]
Pickle, J. J. "Jake" (A/CR) [UT]
Pickle, J. J. "Jake" (A) [NYA]
Pierce, Robert J.

Pierson, W. DeVier (A)

Pike, Douglas (A)

Plyler, Dorothy (see Alford, Dorothy P.)
Poage, W. Robert (A) [UT]
Poage, W. Robert {(A) [LBJ]
Poats, Rutherford M. (A)
Pollak, Stephen J. (A/R/WP)x
Pollei, Weeze Deathe

Porter, Daniel Boone

Porter, Ella SoRelle (A)
Porter, Paul A. {A)

Portner, Mildred (A)

Powell, Ben H., Jr. (A)
Powell, Dorris (Mrs. Hugh) (A) [LBJ]
Powell, Dorris (Mrs. Hugh) [LBJ]
Price, C. W. (A)

Price, David

Prindle, Richard A. (A)
Prokop, Ruth

Provence, Harry (A)

Proxmire, William (A)

Pryor, Richard S. "Cactus" (A)
Pucinski, Roman

Purcell, Graham (A)

eulaipay jo Aloysiy, ayy wiody Adog

‘sexo] ‘unsny ‘Asai
L Vv 7] YUosuyor seuleg UopuAt 6y) Ul (euIBLO Ue jo SulsIpOYW jo Asmuqr) jeuoneny ‘UOISIAIG
Pyland, Sidney "Sub"

uie, Albert H. (A)

Quigley, James M.

uill, Daniel J. (A) [UT]

uill, Daniel J. (A) [Goldman]
Quill, Daniel J. (A) [w/Sam Fore]

| Kenneth A. {
Randolph, A. Philip ({
BResmesset. Boyd L. (A)
ather, Dan (A)
Rather, Mary {A/CR) [LBJ]
fee Mary [LBJ]

A)
A)

auh, Joseph L., Jr. (A)
e, Edward (A)
ead, Benjamin H. (A)
feiss Cecil
edford, Clarence
Redford, Emmette S. (A) [UT]
| ae Emmette S. (A) [LBJ]
edy, George E., Jr. (A/CR) [UT]
Reedy, George E., Jr. (A/CR) [LBJ]
edy, George E., Jr. [LBJ]
BEsciecer Edwin 0. (A)
esor, Stanley R. (A)
eynolds, James J. (A)
ynolds, William (A)
ynolds, William A.
Rhodes, Sharon
ichards, Horace E. (A)
B enerason, Elliott {A)
Richmond, Julius (A)
ipley, S. Dillon (A)
Robinson (A)
vlin, Alice
Robb, Lynda Johnson (R/WP/CR/ILL-life)
bb, Lynda Johnson
berts, Chalmers M. (A)
Roberts, Charles (A)
berts, Juanita (A) [Goldman]
berts, Juanita (A) [UT]
Roberts, Juanita (A) [LBJ]
berts, Morris
fears Ray (A/CR) [LBJ]
berts, Ray (A) [NYA]
Robertson, A. Willis {A)
bertson, Joe
binson, James A.
Roche, John P. (A)
te Laurance (A)

Oral History Interviews - Page ll

Rockefeller, Nelson (A)
Rogers, Paul

Rogers, Will R. (A)

Rogovin, Mitchell (A)
Rolvaag, Karl

Roosa, Robert V. (A/CR)
Roosevelt, James

Rosenblatt, Peter R.

Rostow, Eugene V. (A)
Rostow, Walt W. (Ax) [UT]
Rostow, Walt W. (Ax) {LBJ]j
Roth, Fenner (A) [Bolton]
Roth, Fenner (A) [NYA]
Roth, Fenner {A) [LBJ]
Rountree, Payne (A)

Rovere, Richard H. (A)

Rowe, Elizabeth (A)}

Rowe, James H., Jr. (A) [UT]
Rowe, James H., Jr. (A) [LBJ]
Rowe, James M. (A)

Rowley, James J. ({A)

Royal, Darrell

Royals, Thomas (A)

Rusk, Dean (A/CR)

Russell, Harold J. (A)
Rustin, Bayard (A)
Ruttenberg, Stanley H. (A)

Sadler, Mrs. Wade

Salas, Luis

Salisbury, Harrison (A)
Saltonstall, Leverett (A)
Samuels, Howard J.

Sanders, Carl E. (A)
Sanders, Harold Barefoot (A)
Sandlin, George

Sanford, Terry (A)
Saperstein, Sidney A. (A/R)
Saunders, Harold H.

Saunders, Josefa Baines (A)
Sauvageot, Jean A.

Scammons, Richard M. (A)
Schlei, Norbert A. (A)
Schlesinger, Arthur (A/CR)
Schmidt, Fred (A)

Schneider, Wunibald W. (A)
Schnittker, John A.. (A) [UT]
Schnittker, John A. [LBJ]
Schreiber, Harry J. (A)
Schultze, Charles L. (A)
Scott, Bess Whitehead

SIH ay W041 Adon

"suxal ‘unsny ‘Ales
Vv af] Yosuyor seuleg uopuAl eur ur leulBiio ue yo aulaipayy yo Aseiqny leuoneN ‘uolsiaiq euloipayy yo A1oy
den, Emily Crow (A)

Semer, Milton P.

Shackley, Theodore

fp Louis
nnon, James A.

Shapiro, Samuel H. (A)
lton, Emmett (A/CR)
lton, Polk & Nell (A)

Sheppard, Bailey (A)

ye: John Ben {A)

eg Jewel Malechex

vers, Allan (A)

emaker, Whitney (A/CR)
hort, Robert

umatoff, Elizabeth (A)

iver, Sargent
hultz, John M.
sgfey, Hugh (A)

gel, Gerald W. (A/CR) [UT]
iegel, Gerald W. (A/CR) [LBJ}
=: Charles E.

we ue Ue ea

pson, Charlies M. (A)
clair, Ivan (A)
jingletary, Otis (A)
gleton, John V., Jr. (A)
co, Joseph J. (A) [UT]
3isco, Joseph J. [LBJ]
3melton, Byron G. (A)
j3les, Joseph H. (A)
jmall, Merrell F.

, George

Ma wa ue te

Va we we

a

jmgth, Bromley K. (A)

smth, C. R. (A) [UT]

3mith, C. R. (A) [LBJ]

3th, Carol Davis

j@™th, E. Babe

jmith, G. Preston ({A)

jmath, Gerard C. (A)

ja@gth, Haywood

jmith, J. Edwin

imith, James W. (A)

qe Margaret Chase (A)
th, R. Jack

jmith, Robert J. (A)

Mth, Willard J. (A)

$i William Robert (A)

olomon, Anthony M. (A)
rkman, John (A) [UT]

oe John (A) [LBJ]

jpears, Adrian A. {A)

jpears, Adrian A. [LBJ]

jggnn, Richard

awe wee we re

Oral History Interviews - Page 12

Spock, Benjamin (A)

Staats, Elmer B. (A)
Stanford, Louise Hermey
Stanton, Frank

Starcke, Max & Evelyn (A)
Stavast, John &.

Steadman, John M.

Stehling, Arthur

Stennis, John C. (A)
Stevens, Roger L. (A)
Stewart, William H. (A)
Stilwell, Richard G.

Stone, Sam V. (A)

Storey, Robert

Stoughton, Cecil (A)
Strauss, Robert S. (A)
Sugarman, Jule M. (A)
Sullivan, William H. (A)
Summy, ©. B. (A)

Sundquist, James L. (A)
Sweeney, John L. (A)
Swidler, Joseph

Symington, James W. (A/R/ILL)
Symington, Stuart (A) [UT]
Symington, Stuart (A) [LBJ]

Taft, Robert, Jr. (A)

Talmadge, Herman E. (A)

Tate, James H. (A)

Taylor, Antonio J. (A)

Taylor, H. Ralph (A)

Taylor, Hobart, Jr. (A)

Taylor, Hobart, Sr. (A)

Taylor, Maxwell D. (A) [UT]
Taylor, Maxwell D. (A/R/T) [LBJ]
Taylor, Mrs. T. J., Jr.

Taylor, Willie Day (A)

Taylor, Winston

Teague, Kathy

Telles, Raymond L. (A)

Temple, Larry (A)

Territo, Dorothy

Theis, J. William (A)

Thomas, Bruce

Thomas, Donald S.

Thomas, Helen

Thomas, Lera (Mrs. Albert Thomas) (A)
Thomason, R. Ewing (A)

Thompson, Clark W. & Libbie M. (A)
Thomson, James C., Jr. (A)
Thornberry, Homer (A)

SIH OYT luosy Adan

“sexes ‘unsny ‘Asgiqr uosuyo 0 Ajo
t Yor seuleg UopuA ay) U! jPUIBUO Ue JO EUDIPAY so Asaaqiy] jeuoneN ‘uolsinig eulo pay) jo A
. * . ae bias ' 3 3 4 J
Thornhill, Paul L.
Ihurmond, Strom {A)
immes, Charles
Timmons, Bascom N. (A)
cker, Phillip (R/WP-1995)
lmach, Eric (A)
Tooley, Emma Boehringer (A)
rp, Kenneth (A)
E=: John G. (A)
ejos, Jose Joaquin (A)
Trowbridge, Alexander (A)
ueheart, William ({A)
icker, Sterling (A)
Tully, Grace (A)
rman, James A. (A)
rner, Francis C. (A)

| ee Stewart L. (A)
derwood, Marty

| oe Jack (A)
Valenti, Mary Margaret Wiley [UT]

lenti, Mary Margaret Wiley [LBJ]
fe Cyrus RR. (A}

asey, Lioyd R.

ughn, Jack Hood
fe: Carl (A)

mson, Fred M., Jr. (A)
Voigt, Kathleen
\ ie H. Jerry (A)

aw, David

ifherce, Robert E. (A/CR)
lace, George C.
Wallace, Victor M.
fe. Sir Keith (A)
t, Lewis W. (A)
Walter, Louis F. (A)
MMiner, Volney F. (A/CR/R/T)
} neg Paul C. (A)
Warren, Earl (A)
Smphington, Walter and Bennetta
| Lew (R/CR-lifetime)
facson, W. Marvin
Nattenberg, Ben J. (A)
N@mver, George L. P. (A)
WM@aver, Robert C. (A)
Webb, Emma (Mrs. Charles W.) (A)
TT James E. (A/CR)

Oral History Interviews - Page 13

Webb, Terrell Maverick (A)

Weber, O. J.

Weedin, Harfield ({(A/CR)

Weeks, Christopher (A)
Weinheimer, Tom and Betty

Weisl, Edwin L., Jr. (A)

Weisl, Edwin L., Sr. (A)

Welsh, Edward C. (A)

Wentzel, Volkmar K. (A)

West, Wesley
Westmoreland, William C. (A) [UT}
Westmoreland, William C. (A) [LBJ]
Wheeler, Earle G. (A)

White, J. Roy (A)

White, June (Mrs. William S. White) (A)}
White, Lee C. (A/CR)

White, Robert M. (A}

White, William S. (A) [UT]
White, William S. (A) [w/Sam Fore]
White, William S. (A) [LBJ]
Whiteside, R. Vernon (A)
Whittington, Gerri

Wicker, Tom G. (A)

Wiggins, James Russell. (A)
Wilcox, Walter W. (A)

Wild, Claude C., Sr. (A) [UT]
Wild, Claude C., Sr. (A) [Goldman]
Wildenthal, John (A)

Wilkins, Roger W.

Wilkins, Roy (A)

Williams, Donald A. (A)
Williams, Eugene & Helen (A)
Williams, G. Mennen (A)
Williams, Jerre (A)

Williams, Mary Pearl

Williams, Samuel T. (A)

Willis, A. M. "Monk" (A) [LBJ]
Willis, A. M. "Monk" [LBJ]
Wilson, Cynthia

Wilson, Glen F. (A)

Wilson, Glen & Marie (A)

Wilson, Henry Hall (A)

Wilson, Isabel Brown

Wilson, James W. {A)

Wilson, Logan (A) [UT]

Wilson, Logan [LBJ]

Wilson, Marie (A)

Wilson, Will (A)

Winters, Anita P.

Winters, Melvin C.

Wirth, Conrad L. {A)

Wirtz, Mrs. Alvin J. (A)

"sexe ‘ullsny ‘Asesqry uos
qn UYOr Seuleg UOpUA ays ul jeuIBuO UE jo SUldIPSY] Jo Alesqry] jauoneN ‘uoisiniq sulipay jo Asoysiyy ayy Luosy Ado
B iisner, Frank G.
Wolkstein, Irwin
Wood, Robert C. (A)
Bf iccas, Wilton (A)
Woods, Wilton & Virginia (A)
Woods, Wilton & Virginia
Woodward, Robert F. (A)
Woodward, Warren G. (A/CR) [UT]
Woodward, Warren G. (A/CR) [Bolton]
Woodyard, Mrs. Ewell (A) [w/Pattilloj
Worley, Eugene (A)
Wozencraft, Frank M.
Wright, James C., Jr. (A)
Bpicicnt, zephyr (A/CR)

ero insey. Adam (R/WP-1991) [UT]
armolinsky, Adam (R/WP-1991) {LBJ]
Yeagley, J. Walter
eldell, Joseph
Res: Samuel W. (A)
oung, Andrew J., Jr. (A)
oung, Milton R. (A)
jens Whitney M., Jr. (A)
oungblood, Rufus (A)

Bh esccis, Clement J. (A)

Ziegler, H. A. "Tony" (A)
rthian, Barry (A/CR) [UT]

Fence: Barry (A) [LBJ]
uckert, Eugene M. (A)

ver, Charles

ick, Charles (A)

f
'
i
i
,
:
:

Oral History Interviews - Page 14

SIH 9y) wold Adoy

“sexe! ‘unsny ‘Areiqr uosuyor Seuleg UOpUA au) Ut JeUIBLO Ue Jo SuloIpaY] jo Auesqry jeuonenN ‘uolsiAig auloIpay yo Asoy